Frame & Reference Podcast - 127: "Lessons in Chemistry" DP Jason Oldak

Episode Date: February 1, 2024

This week on F&R we're joined by Jason Oldak to talk about his work on the Apple TV+ show Lessons in Chemistry starring Brie Larson! Jason’s career includes work on many award-winning TV series, including Hulu and Onyx Collective’s UnPrisoned, starring Kerry Washington and Delroy Lindo; Max’s Minx, created by Ellen Rapoport and starring Ophelia Lovibond and Jake Johnson; and two seasons of NBCUniversal’s beloved comedy series Good Girls, starring Christina Hendricks, Retta, and Mae Whitman. He also worked on other projects for Lionsgate STARZ, Walt Disney Pictures, Netflix, FX, and more, including most recently providing additional photography on the limited FX series The Sterling Affairs, starring Lawrence Fishburne, Jackie Weaver, and Ed O’Neil. Enjoy! Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠www.frameandrefpod.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ for everything F&R You can directly support Frame & Reference by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Buying Me a Coffee⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coast's leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠⁠Filmtools.com⁠⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello, and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and you're listening to episode 127 with Jason Oldack, DP of Lessons and Chemistry. Enjoy. have you uh i should probably have you been watching anything uh cool um yes i am uh we're watching fargo right now do you watch that show oh sure like as a family like they haven't seen it before uh no fargo the tv series oh oh oh i had i too love the movie also but yeah do you watch do you watch it or no yeah yeah we got um i think well i shouldn't i shouldn't i I shouldn't say we've watched it because I think we're maybe two episodes in.

So, and then we move on to something else. We got, we got back on a, uh, Doctor Who kick because they started new Doctor Who. So we had to like catch up with the ones we missed. I don't know, I don't know what Dr. Who is. What is that? Oh, no kidding. It's a British, man. All right. Now this episode's about me. Uh, the, the, uh, it's a British television show. It's a sci-fi-ish show. Um, and the main, it's been, I think it's probably the longest running television show. history because it started in like the 60s and then took a big break and then restarted

in 2003 or something but essentially the main character is this time traveling space traveling alien who kind of looks like a human and just goes around time and space solving problems and helping people and but the conceit of the show is that being a time lord the individual can regenerate when they die so that's how they get new actors and so you know at the end of their series they will die and then regenerate

is the next actor and it's always like a big deal but uh the doctor can be anyone you know the doctor regenerates into women men whatever color you know um where do you watch this what what's streaming oh jeez it was on

so it's it's BBC um it was on max for a while. I don't know if they moved it. I think the newest one is on Disney Plus. Yeah, but someone has to, has it. There's no way. There's no way they're like really trying to push it into America right now. And they're like, you know, we're just going to take the rest of the old seasons off. We, last night we watched that movie, Poor Things. Have you seen the movie? I want to, I want to see that so bad. How is it? It's great. It's great. I mean, you've seen his other movies, Giorgos' other movies.

Yeah, it's just, you know, it's so unique. Everything he's doing is so unique and different. And, you know, when I watch the favorite, the Fish Eye Lens thing, it kind of threw me out. I wasn't sure if I liked it or not, but he does it again in this movie, and it really works. There's so many things that work in this movie. It's really good. From a cinematic standpoint, I feel like Ravi Ryan. it's such a good job and they uh they just create such um like it's like you're in london

but you're in this fantastical place it's it's very it's watch it i'd love to hear your take on it yeah the uh the one i'm excited the ones we just watched were the holdovers which was fantastic oh goodness so good um and from a cinematography perspective there too they they really leaned into the like I don't know how online you are but a lot of kids are always like how do I replicate the film look and it's like whoever was the DIY on the holdovers we just need to talk to them

because definitely who shot it who shot the holdovers that's a great question let's find out we have that thing I was Alexander Payne directed that right yes and I know people are kind of so so on Alexander you know not so so but like you either love them or hate them

but did an amazing job with that one also you know it's you also have to think like it's a Christmas film that's sad kind of so it you have movies yeah yeah oh it's Igel

I forgot it's Igel I fucking texted him right after the I was like sitting I'm like who shot this who shot this and then Igel his name popped up and I interviewed him for I think foundation or something like that but he also shot like the first season of House of Car parts. Okay. Okay. Um, which obviously is very good. Um, but I'm pretty sure they shot that digitally. So all the, the film kind of thing, but like the light, the lighting in that one,

like we, I also saw salt burn and like the light is similar in both, like very natural, but somehow in the holdovers, it, it feels more of the time. Like it feels very 1970s versus just natural light. Like the sun's been around forever, but. Where does it take place? Because I feel like sometimes the cinematography, like the lighting and the period, like the light is different in different places, right? Like in when I would see things in New York State, you know, in the wintertime, like, it's a different feeling that it is here in Los Angeles. It's long. Yeah.

So, so northeast. Northeast and winter. Seventies, winter. Yeah. So it's that low light. There's a different feel to it. I'm sure you know what I'm going. mean. Yeah. And then, you know, I feel like also, you know, you add the elements in front of the

camera, the costumes, you know, the atmosphere, you know, the set design. And then all of a sudden, it really does feel like the 70s, you know, Boston. Yeah. Well, and that was actually something I did want to bring up about your, not to like jump straight ahead because usually the first half is more other stuff but like in your show there something I noticed was it's very modern looking but the production design and the costuming make it the 50s and it's yeah a lot of and I actually

I think I prefer the holdovers is unique because it looks like it was the seven like shot like they nailed it whereas I think everyone else trying to do not everyone else but a lot of times it'll feel kind of pastiche when you're trying to invoke a time with the aesthetics, the visual aesthetics, not the production design of costume, but like the camera. And I think in your show,

it like, it nailed the, uh, modern, like Fincher does this a lot. I feel like it's instead of just trying to put you in the time period, it's like we're just going to, it's going to look clean and,

but the, but what's in front of it is the time, you know, why are we trying to. Yeah. I mean, I mean, less is more, right?

It's like, uh, Um, you know, we, we had, you know, we're using vintage lenses. We're using the Canon K-35s. Really? So, yeah, yeah. So we're creating an element of period, but, um, and you know, our Lut kind of, uh, sort of its origin is from that like old agva, agfa film feel.

But there wasn't a lot that Zach and I really needed to do. Like you said, there's so much in front of the frame, you know. the costume design, the production design, and that I feel like we didn't want to force too much else. It's like that I feel like those elements working in tandem with the way we're lighting it, not making it, you know, making it, you know, you used the word naturalism before.

I mean, I feel like that term is used a lot these days. Right. And we tried really hard to really nail the term naturalism, to really, if you see that practical, to really make it feel like the room is being lit by that practical. And sometimes it would be just one extra cinema light that was just augmenting it. You know, this was definitely the darkest show I've done in my career in a good way,

like low light, but low light where it's feeling like that's where the naturalistic lighting is coming from. And so, I don't know, it, it, nothing ever felt force. I guess, with the period aspect of things. You know, we referenced images at the beginning. But it was, you know, filmmaking is a team effort, right? And I feel like your first step with being a cinematographer is like, what's in front of the camera? And like we said, the design element is already halfway there.

Well, and I did want to compliment you also on the lighting of it because it is so, you know, people always go, oh, yeah, well, my favorite painter is Charoscuro. and shit and it's and uh but you really did nail that kind of uh deep contract because that's something that i think a lot of people everyone wants to talk oh this camera has a great low light performance and it's like i don't i think we're missing the point about like if i want good low light performance really what i mean is i just don't want the shadows to be noisy i'm not you know who the hell's shooting with no lights and in this show you really got like that amazing single source soft kind of creamy you look with deep shadows that I think is more what I would consider quote unquote low light,

not like triple streamer Game of Thrones. Of course. Also, I think like, you know, in other projects of mine and other people, you know, you feel the need to have your key light kind of be that three quarter, you know, right off from camera,

feel. And this was really about like, and you know, this is obviously the trust that our producers and everyone else involved. is to you know it's like sometimes maybe the light is coming from a three-quarter edge and then we just kind of wrap it with a little bit of grip attire and the face goes dark and that's i mean when you're in your house and you're moving through your house and there are light scattered that's how you're lit so we tried to just do that as much justice as we could um yeah yeah the uh i did i did i did read in a different interview you did that uh everything was LED. Did that go all the way into what's it called the separate six set or was that, did you keep that vintage? Yeah, no, everything is LED. And I know there are some DPs that feel with period work that they want to do tungsten. I think the control these days with LED lighting

is just so there that I'm so used to it. You know, you have your dimmer board, you can control temperature. I personally don't see as much of a difference as some other. You know, obviously, if you dim down a tungsten light, you're going to create a much warmer color. That deacon's yellow. Yeah. And, you know, I would never say that I would not use tungsten lighting. But for a situation like this, for our show, you know, using these small LED lights these days that give off so much light and they're battery powered. It's like, how could you not try and use that. The Subbert Six set is an interesting one because we, Led Levine is our gaffer and he is phenomenal. I've never worked with him before up until now,

but he has quite the resume. And he, that was a big project of his. He, he basically retrofitted all of these old, Mold Richardson lights, hollowed them out, or I guess MBS had hollowed them out for us. And then we put in all kinds of LED lights inside of them. So the set, although it could be photographed and looks like, you know, a period, all period lighting above, but there's no temperature rays. You know, it's not 100 degrees on set. Specifically where Bree was standing behind the table, there were these two scoop lights and he had put in, I think, light mat fours inside both of them. So she's illuminated, but, you know, it was actually quite cold on set with all the air conditioning.

And, you know, there are some scattered babies up there, and there are some, I think the scoop lights above the audience members are actually real scoop lights, tungsten lights. But everything that's near anybody performing on the actual set was I LED based. Even, I think he even put in like, hollowed out 10Ks. He put in, have you heard of these Felix lights? They're great. They're so good. Yeah. So I think he put either P10s or P3s in those, or maybe the P3s or in the little guys in the P10. Yeah, they're amazing. And they're small. And I mean, it's, it's, I don't know. As a cinematographer, I think that stuff's kind of cool. You know, like, you know, like, oh, this little LED light is powering this giant. It looks like it's powering this giant light.

Yeah. Fun stuff. Yeah. I remember in film school, I was, you know, because we, at the time, this would have been. 08, kind of 09. And so we had, we didn't have any lights. We had those lull tota. Remember those little like bars and no grip? So everything was just this brutal hot,

you know, spot. And I remember seeing in an issue of American cinematographer, a zip light, the scoop light. And I remember thinking like, damn, if I ever get one of those, I will have been like.

And now here I am. Yeah. Like, keynote LEDs. would have a cream source back there. It's unbelievable where lighting, I mean, we talked about low lighting cameras, but where the technology of lighting has gone

in the last five, ten years. I mean, another gaffer collaborator of mine, he also is, you know, he's been around for a long time. And so he's experienced, you know, such a difference in technology. And I think as a gaffer, you really have to just, you have to be up on it just like an assistant camera person

does in terms of you know what what certain units are doing what new things i mean there are each show i go on i feel like there's different manufacturers or i didn't know i've never heard of a felix light until this show but you know now it's a it's a light i'll bring on another show you know um yeah you know the cream sources the vortexes i think are the common lights the arry family of lights you know you hear about those but then there's all these subsidiaries it's it's pretty cool yeah the uh the uh the the I think two years ago, maybe more, I got, I finally got a color meter because I could afford it. And I went around and metered everything in my house.

I wrote an article about which bulbs, like household bulbs you could use on set. Because, you know, I had ones from DWP. I had ones from IKEA, GE, obviously. And then I went to film tools and I metered all of their lights. And I found out that the sky panels are kind of middling. I mean, they're all good, but, like, the, you know, it was crazy to see that, like, what do you mean by middling? What does that mean?

In comparison to other fixtures. So, in terms of spectral output, not necessarily quality. So, like, the two things I was kind of looking for was when you put the number in the back of the thing, is that what you're getting, right? So you write $5,600, sometimes you get $65 on a bad. So with the sky panels, you put $50. 56 and you're getting that, but the spectral output isn't great. It's like a lot more blue and it doesn't have, because you meter the sun or a tungsten, you know, the sun has all the colors and then a tungsten is mostly orange.

So like Kino flow is almost perfect. You get a TLCI of 100 out of those things, which is insane. Rosco, the little Roscoe dash is amazing. Those two companies in particular, I wonder, yeah, I'm glad you mentioned. mention them. But, you know, when the LED craze has happened, I feel like they were so popular when when I first started in film school. You know, you had your Keno tubes and everything. And Kino as an LED company, I mean, they're obviously, they're creating good, good products, but I don't see them on set nearly as much. So I actually got to talk because of my job as a journalist.

I got to talk to the guy of, I think his name's Friedrich. reader, something like that, the guy who started Kino, and I asked him about that. And he was like, well, we wanted to come to the, I'm going to soft quote, you know, I'm transliterating here, but he was basically like, you know, they wanted to come to the market. Correct. They wanted like the best light, but it just took them a long time. So the product didn't, and then SkyPanel came out in like, whatever, 2010. So they came eight years late to the party. So. So, now they're just trying to catch up with like the mimic and stuff which you know do you have any experience on the on the LED volumes uh no but I just I did a project in October where was it was an AR it was like something that had to do with that game Minecraft sure it was sort of dealing with a volume um it was I guess you could call it more of a corporate gig but um it was essentially you having these people on the volume feel like they're involved in the Minecraft game.

So it was a 180 degree screen and there were engineers that created AR and some other term. But so I really do, yes, yes, exactly, XR. But I really do want to shoot on a volume, man. It seems so cool. That's a Star Wars show. Yeah, cool. I've talked to a few guys who've shot on him and it does, I think everyone has the same reaction of that seems really cool.

they get there and go, boy, this takes a lot of time. Yeah, I know. You know what I want to try in a volume is like essentially what you would do with rear screen projection with driving. Because my biggest problem with, unless you have like top of the line rear screen projectors, the blacks always look milkier than, you know, how your camera is recording. And it just doesn't feel real. And I feel like it would be an expensive way of doing it.

it and I know people are doing it that way, but to be on a volume stage and shoot your car driving that way seems seems to be like the best way to recreate if you can do process trailer. 100%. There's actually two, so I talked to Messerschmitt about, I don't know if they did it on Mank, but they did it on Mind Hunter. I think Eigl had like a version of it on House of Cards. But Fincher's been pushing that. I was about to use a bad phrase, but I really enjoy Fincher's work, let's say. So I study it a lot. But they've been basically. basically doing that, whereas first they just had blue screens and then they would project, they would use like TVs basically to get the reflections correct. And then they know, they moved them down. So I think they did that. They've done that on Gone Girl, the new one, the killer. But could you imagine like with with the volume, you know, now your screen, the window up top, it actually will feel like things are moving because your car is almost like covered completely. I mean, I never felt like the screen

that I put above the window the front window ever looked real. The lights kind of like moves slow and yeah. There's a there's actually a like a semi truck I don't know what you want to call a trailer that has a that they

I don't know if it's just a demo unit or if this is what they intend but they had it at Kina with this party and it's literally the entire inside of the semi is screen is a volume and they use it for process interesting

I did a show a few years ago called Minks and we had to do some car stuff but so the show takes place in the 70s right and so the challenge that we had with that show was well if we do use rear screen projection or rather if we yeah if we use rear screen projection we have to get footage from the 70s

but they didn't shoot five different angles from the 70s And if we do it in real time, you know, do we have a VFX budget? We ended up finding a company that goes out. They essentially do the same thing. They set up like six cameras on top of their car. And then they have whatever period you're shooting. They have like a cluster of those period cars surround their car.

So it feels like you're driving, you're in a period setting. I mean, it was wild. It worked for that show. but yeah that's a that's actually a cool job like to come up with yeah right but you know you can't close down streets so if you look really hard you could see like three cars back there's you know a Tesla yeah yeah yeah free of it's like wait a minute I did I did want to ask um going back because it's kind of the same thing is like you you had said that you didn't work with was the name Lynn on this

on the show. What kind of things do you learn from your gaffers? Because I feel like, you know, the role of the DP, especially if you will come up through lighting. Yeah. It could be easy to think like, oh, I know everything here because now I'm in charge, but that's obviously not true. So like, what do your gaffers teach besides the tech side, you know?

Yeah. I mean, they teach me an unbelievable amount, just like every other. person on my set. You know, I mean, I, when I, before I got into filmmaking, I was a fine artist. So I feel like, you know, did I come up in lighting? Not necessarily. I came up in all things just for my educational process at film school. But, you know, I guess I would say I was more of a, you know, as a camera operator before

I became a DP and, you know, doing things in that world. But I feel like every gaffer that I've worked with educates me in different ways in terms of like how much I can push myself, how, you know, we could use this tool to, okay, for instance, like on this job, and I don't know why I haven't done this yet, but like, you know, Len, on top of like creating your, you know, your units to come in through the window and act as your daylight, he rigged park hands directly above the windows on almost, all our windows in our lab and our house, and they would almost directly shoot down, maybe slightly three-quarter, and they would just hit the bottom of the windowsill. And from that, it kicked up into the room and just gave enough ambience. And it felt like that extra level of heat that sold daylight that much more. And it's a trick that has been around for a long time. I've never seen it before. And I was like, bam, I'm going to use that again on another show. show whether it's with him or someone else you know um it's those little things it's like you know

when i was a camera operator i would watch what the dPs were doing that whether they were doing the right thing or the wrong thing and learn from that you know i think as a filmmaker you constantly have to be learning from the people you're working with um and i i just you know i try and hire people that i trust and look up to and um you know i'll suggest something but always expect them to give me something back tenfold you know the uh that it's that's a great just though i'm thinking about the window thing that almost that almost derailed my thought process because i i'm so used to seeing like you'll put like the hard light through the window and then they'll put maybe like a titan tube or something to like but that's

almost the opposite of that that's so smart we also we you know like any show it seemed like we had a lot money and then we didn't have enough money, you know. And they built a lot of sets. We weren't able to light all the sets with the budget that we had. So we had to be creative. And, you know, so we had sort of these LED spacelights outside, affordable space lights. So those are giving you the ambience. And then you have, we used Q10s to shoot through the windows. But, you know, that the park hands added that extra level of heat on the window sill. And a lot of our lighting did happen to come from our windows. We brought some things inside, but a lot of it was coming in from outside. So those park hands, I mean, that's another thing. They just, once they push off

the blinds or the windowsill, you know, it's controllable and not controllable, but it gives that sense of realness. Yeah. I mean, one thing that I remember learning early on in my career was the idea of the quote unquote flucket light, which is you set up your light, you make everything look good and then you'll get like a par or whatever a leco cut it and then just aim it at something wrong. Just like close your eyes and aim it and then it like that makes it look normal. Yes. Yeah. The fucking light.

Yeah. The show looks really good. What was I going to say? I had another note. Oh yeah. What were you doing in fine art? Was it fine art photography? So I was doing early on in high school I was doing painting and drawing nothing related to film at all and then I went to a school

called Cooper Union in New York City it's a fine art school but the cool thing about that school is they don't require a major when you first start as an artist because they think at 18 years old how do you know what you want to do as an artist

there's like so many things to experiment with that you probably didn't have the opportunity opportunity to do in high school. So I started to get into photography. And I think second or third year while I was there, I got into filmmaking. But it's an art school, right? So it was really experimental. I mean, there were students that were drawing on the negatives. Like, they weren't actually making stories. And I felt compelled to try and make stories as best I could. So we were shooting on Super 8, 16, and, you know, I don't really want to show those films to anybody, but I feel like it was the beginning of it all.

And, you know, at the time, I was doing everything. So I didn't truly understand, you know, what I know now in terms of, like, how everything is made. But as I went through that process, I knew that I was really into this medium. I left art school and I worked as a graphic designer. for a few years because I just needed to make some money and still didn't, you know, painting was always, has always been a love of mine, but I don't know, it was just, I kind of needed something that had some financial stability. So I think cinematography.

Well, it's better than most other five mediums, certainly better than painting. Better than painting. But graphic design for a few years felt like legit, but then I didn't want to sit in front of a computer my whole life, you know. just didn't want to do that. I love graphic design. I think it's fantastic. I just didn't want to do it anymore. And so I went to this, around the same time, I had gone to this, this Q&A at a museum in New York called the Museum of Moving Image. And this was, this is back 2002. So Gordon Willis was still alive. Conrad Hall was still alive. A couple other big, big DPs. And they were at this

Q and A. It was like a master's seminar. And I went there not knowing anything, but, you know, I liked the movies that they were talking about and listened to them talk and, and they talked about their backgrounds. And they talked to the backgrounds. Some of them were painters and photographers and still were. And I said, oh, shit, well, let me look into cinematography. Seems like the right thing for me to try and do. So I started to look into film schools that offered that. And, you know, I applied, did all this stuff, and eventually I got into AFI. So I brought me out to Los Angeles. Well, so that brings up two questions.

I do want to know what your opinion is of the filmmaking landscape of New York versus Los Angeles, which I always dream asked. Because they are different, you know, Atlanta's darn. Okay, it's different. But every single person who comes on this podcast and has gone to AFI is killing it. And so I wanted, so I always ask, what, what is it about AFI to you that, that makes it so, so much of a success factory for its students? Well, and they're not paying me for that question. Well, I'll start with your AFI question first. So I actually just went to AFI and spoke to the students there, which was awesome, because I had not been there in that way.

I had not been back to the school, really, in almost 20 years when I graduated from there. So it was really fulfilling to just talk about this show, but also to talk about filmmaking in general and, you know, think about where I was at when I was sitting in their seats and so curious about what I was about to do next. For me, you know, I can only speak to my time there because I don't, I know, I know Stephen Lighthill is still running the program, but I don't know. I hope it's better than when I was there. But for me at the time, it seemed like the best option in terms of it was the most focused on a specific craft, right? NYU, USC, they all kind of were generalized crafts, graduate programs. And, you know, most people wanted to do directing and writing and this one,

AFI specifically has each discipline and each discipline works together. You make the movies you need to make while you're there. And then you get out. Like, the best thing they could do is, like, push students to their limit for two years and then get out into the real world because you can only learn so much in this bubble of a film school. You have to figure out how to do it in the real world and you'll fail by doing it and then you'll succeed, you know? But I just think it was such an intensive education. And I, you know, as I've just described, like, I went in there. basically not knowing anything. Like I knew some basic stuff, but from the technical side, I knew nothing. And so what they did beyond technical, I think the, and this is what I heard

from some of the students when I was there that had gone to an undergrad film program. They felt like there was one teacher there. His name is Bill Bill. I think he still teaches the one class I'm going to talk about. It's called the visual storytelling class. And he would look at each of your, I think they still call them cycle projects, like your first year films that you make with your other collaborators. And he would watch it in one sitting and break down and talk to you, ask you, critique you, why did you put the camera there? Why did you think about doing that? And really educate us in how to break down a script and figure out how, what are your reasons for placing the camera and shooting the scene like you're doing.

What is the motivation of the scene? What's the emotion, et cetera? And it really has helped me. I mean, as you work, you get better and better, but it's helped me to really dissect the script and figure out visually if I'm doing the script justice. And then, because I think anybody can learn the technical stuff. Like, you know, you get better, you figure out how to like.

But that really helped me as a sense. cinematographer to think about the script from an artistic standpoint and a story's telling standpoint. So I fully support the school and I hope they're even better now. I mean, I'm sure they have the tools now, way better tools than we had, you know, in terms of cameras and lighting and everything else. But you still need to start with the basics, like I said, with the visual stuff. New York versus L.A. So when I was in New York, I didn't really do a lot of filmmaking.

You know, I do, before I came out here for film school, I was working, I don't know how I got on this project, but there used to be a channel on TV called the sci-fi channel. Oh, it was my favorite, dude. That was, I loved that shit. So somehow there was a short film that was being made near my school, or somewhere in the lower Manhattan area. And the DP was Maurice Alberti, who I got on the project in the art. department like i didn't even know wasn't even part of the camera saw things and i was helping out the art department and i was every time we i would be on set when they were shooting i would watch with the camera guys and ladies were doing and i was watching maurice and oh man that is cool way cooler than

what i'm doing right here so that was my first experience with filmmaking in new york but since i left film school i worked on some projects in new york and you know So the cool thing about New York is like it's its own, like the location of New York is a cast member in your project, right? It's like the backdrop of it is uncomparable to anywhere else. It's like Paris. It's like, you know, I think it's harder to work in New York. You're working on five-story walk-ups and you have to figure out how to tie in electric-wise and, you know, you're taking the train to work, you know, instead of hopping in your car and putting your carts. and your back of your truck and things like that.

L.A. is definitely built for an easier way of working in production. But I don't know. I keep telling my agent, like, you have anything in New York? I want to shoot something in New York. You know, it's just, it's a fun city to be. And it's very lively. And, yeah. Yeah.

What was the, you brought up a good thing there. What was, I feel like at a certain point, a lot of filmmakers will hit up, a point where their career, where they feel ready, and they start asking the question of agent, you know, manager or whatever, when was that point for you? And maybe when would you suggest that for someone else? Sure. So I had not had the luxury of like a film winning Sundance or something like that where my career changes overnight and then all of a sudden these agents start calling, you know. But what I did have is I had an opportunity at some point where a friend of mine, who actually had success in that world, in the Sundance world, he got the opportunity

to shoot a show called Casual, which was on Oulu. It came out, I don't know, eight years ago or something, maybe more. And he was the DP on season one and two, and we were very good friends. And he brought me on immediately as the A operator on both seasons. And once season two came around, he really felt like he needed to do some other things and spoke to the producers and said, I really think you should give Jason the opportunity. I was doing some second unit for them at the time. They knew my background. But more importantly, they took a gamble on me, you know, because I know where the story goes a very different way, where the producers are like, no, thanks. We'll go hire somebody who has an agent and has a resume and all the stuff. And they

didn't do that. And so I ended up shooting season three and four. And while I was shooting season three, I felt like, okay, this is an opportunity to reach out to agents because what everyone needs to realize about an agent is that they're selling you. You're a product. And if they can't sell you, then they can't do anything. They can't do anything with you. So I had friends early on in film school where they somehow got an agent. way before I did, but they weren't getting anything from that agent and they were frustrated and then they wanted to go to another agency and another agency. And they continued to have that struggle. And I, I just feel like you have to get the work. And once the work starts coming, they'll get more work for you. But you kind of have to do that on your own. I would say, even to this day, you know, at least 60% to 70% of my work is from somebody I know, but the agent facilitates the deal or also gets me in the room with other interviews. They're absolutely needed, but you need to do the work in the beginning.

So when I have this opportunity, I reached out to Brenzum, because you can't cold call an agency either. That will work. So I reached out to DPs that I were friends of mine that were represented at various agencies. And they said, hey, can you put in a good word? This is what I'm doing now. And they did. And I met with a few of them. And then the agent who I have today is the same guy who I met at that time.

And he took me on. And yeah, I don't know. It's an interesting, it's an interesting relationship. but the biggest thing that everybody needs to realize is like they're selling you and if you don't have the credits for them to sell you on then just keep shooting yeah and eventually like something will happen whether your movie will get into you know south by southwest or tribeco or you'll get on a tv show like i did i mean something will happen where you can then get engaged i think uh i think that's the uh the funny thing is there's so many corporate

elements to filmmaking and so many artistic elements and maybe that's something they don't teach it. Well, maybe AFI does, but certainly not much. They don't. No, they don't. Oh, okay. And that's actually, that's the one thing that I wish leaving film school that at least the cinematography program focused more on is about some of the real world stuff. We had like a, I think we had a guest speaker who happened to be in that world, that agent world come in. But I feel like the professors could have done a better job at that time. This is 2005, 2003-to-5. But, you know, there's some things you kind of have to figure out on your own,

you know, like in terms of how you get from place to place. Everyone has their own path, right? It's like, I work with this person who recommended me for this job, then this job, your path would be different than mine. But, you know, talking about, like, how you get an agent, you know, things like that that film students want to know about, you know, preparing yourself for not shooting a big thing right out of film school like every film student including myself thinks like yeah i'm going to get this big movie in the next three years

maybe well and to that point i think a lot of students um you know and if of any school of any discipline uh you spend your into the first 21 years of your life being told this is the next step. This is the next step. This is the next step. And then you kind of get in that rhythm. It's kind of like the military where you just do what you're told. And then you keep going. And then you're like, all right, uh, your turn to figure it out. And you're like, well, what's the guidance here? And they're like the none. There isn't any go network. That's a that's exactly what happened with the head of AFI when I was about to graduate. I walked into his office and I asked him that. I said, all right, Steven. So what's next? And he kind of shrugged his shoulders in like the

nicest way possible. He's like, you're going to figure out your own tree graphs, you know, your own paths. You know, I can give you pointers, but, uh, there's no one way to do it. Like a doctor. Doctor has very straight path, you know, it's like, go to medical school, do this, do this. You become successful that way. Yeah. It is, it's, I think, too, it does feel like maybe prior to, I'm making this number up, maybe prior to, maybe prior to, to like the 80s, it felt like filmmaking was very small club, which is good and bad, right? Obviously bad for certain people getting in, but good for not a lot of attention on what you're doing. So it's a little easier to move around. And then at a certain point, it became

so commercialized that now it feels like a real job, quote, a cool, real job, but still kind of is. Yeah. Yeah, there's, I mean, there's a lot, you know, from what you're, that time period you're talking about and now there's a lot because of technology. I think there's a lot more opportunity for filmmakers to make product to product. Yeah, see. See? I know, I know. To make to make films and create stories and get your projects out there, you know. But, you know, I think this strike that just happened and where the industry is going is interesting because I think there was so much that now I think it's going to shrink a little bit in terms of how many projects are actually going to be made. There's still going to be more than there was in the 80s and there's

still going to be opportunity for somebody that's younger in their career to get going and make things sooner. You know, you don't just have to have your dad be in the industry to get into the industry. But yeah, I think things are going to be changing, at least in television. But movies too, you know, I mean, how many movies go, you know, I just watched Maestro and it's, what, an amazing movie, but, you know, that movie is going to be in the theater for a little bit. It's going to be right onto Netflix. And it's like, that's a big movie, you know, and then there are movies that go straight to Netflix that some people don't ever see, you know. So the movie, the movie industry is strange these days also. I don't know. Well, it's something that I've, this is not a hot take or anything, but I feel like, it's it I'm frustrated by what certain companies will advertise like they will prejudge a film and go well that's not worth like I don't think we needed every road in Los Angeles to have an Oppenheimer billboard we knew about it we knew it was coming out like but there's certain small you know I don't know if the holdovers

had any billboards but I don't think I saw any like I think I think they need to spend less money advertising the next Marvel project because the people who are going to see it are going to see it and more money putting a bigger ad buy on these smaller films or ones that maybe wouldn't get as much attention because I think that would also change the side tangent. I saw an interview with Jeff Bezos of all people, you know, and a broken clock is right twice a day. And he said that, you know, if the data and the anecdotes don't line up, then you need to trust the anecdotes usually, because the data is probably incorrectly. So when people keep saying like, oh, all movies suck today or like everything is a

CG fest, it's like, no, there's amazing films out there. It just wasn't advertised to you. In L.A., it's easier to, you know, know, know, in the middle of the country or even people I have friends of mine who live here like, I don't watch movies. And I think a lot of it has to do with like, you're not presented. There's so much noise. You're not presented with these interesting film like Godzilla plus one. Everyone seems to be loving that thing and I have not seen a single ad for it. Yeah. That's like a God's yeah it's I think we're we're also living in a different time of advertising with the amount of shows like word of mouth I find is sometimes stronger than a billboard for me like if people if you go to various parties and gatherings and whatever else

you're doing you know work every day and people in your circle start talking about about Godzilla or whatever show, all of a sudden you start hearing about this. Now, where did that come from? I don't know. Where did that start? But the internet, I think, is another way to advertise with, the marketing campaigns of certain movies have to be smart sometimes

in terms of like, how do you get out to certain audiences without it just being your traditional billboard? Maybe billboards cost so much money now that only Oppenheimer movies are going to do that. Barbies and Oppenheimer's and things. But yeah, there are a lot of movies that fall through crack. And specifically the movies that, I mean, may or may not be good, but are made. And then they end up on a streaming site. And if the streaming site doesn't advertise them, because maybe they're not so good,

but they're made, then it just ends up in purgatory. Right. It ends up, like, hidden in your menu system, in your Hulu. And then as the filmmakers made the movie, you're like, what's the point I don't not what's the point but like it's you want to people make things to share yeah you know I mean you make them for you but you want the whole point of making a movie is to otherwise you would just write a script and go there they go that's done okay or you're making the room to what you just said

there's something that's circulating on the internet right now Rick Rubin you know he wrote a book about like I want to read that book so bad I do too I do too but there's a video of him probably talking about the and he specifically talks about how he makes things for himself. And, you know, as cinematographers, it's, you know, you're not creating the project. You're not writing the project, but you are making it with those collaborators. But it is an interesting take because if you're just making that movie to satisfy yourself, then it doesn't matter where it goes, right?

You are satisfied in the project you've made. It's up to the audience to either watch it and like it or not, but you should feel complete about the project you made, you know? Yeah. I don't know. Well, that's, I 100% agree, obviously, but you got to make money somehow. But that actually, of course. Yeah.

That actually changed the way that I rate movies. I go on a 1 to 5 scale and unless it's objectively bad, like, and I mean like objectively, like things are out of focus that sounds bad, bad, that's a zero. For me, a one is Wasn't made for me Like someone might like this But it's just not for me Like you know Because there's tons of movies out there

That just weren't made That was I can't remember I was bitching about some This was in college Some movie came out And maybe it's twilight, who knows And I was just like Oh, it's so stupid whatever whatever

And my friend of mine was like Let's not made for you I was like what? You're not the audience Yeah Why are you complaining there's other movies and then for some reason there's like a 19 year old i was like not every movie's made for me and then and then you you know now as a filmmaker you know how

many people works to make that project happen you know and that's what i hate sometimes about critiques of movies and tv shows where they just slam something and you're like okay you didn't like it but maybe it's not for you or and then and then all these people that made that project But I get it. It's part of the business of it all, you know. It's also helped me personally, like enjoy movies that aren't made for me. Like to see what they were doing, especially going with someone who it was made for helps. But like, you know, once you, I'm sure you feel this way too, correct me if I'm wrong.

But like, you make enough film or you watch enough film and then you kind of start to see the code in the matrix as it were. And you can get what emotions they were going for and what story they were. trying to tell whether or not it entertained you or elated you is a different issue. Definitely. They're not at work. Definitely. Definitely. And I also, going back to just our advertising conversation, like, I feel like when I am

not hearing about a project, a movie or something, or I am, I tend to know, I feel like I'll know if that project is good or bad, you know? You kind of just get it. You know, you're like, oh, everyone's talking about this. this is good or you know this is a nobody knows about this movie you know this is you know but um yeah you kind of just the more you like you just get how the business is made and how all functions and everything yeah that kind of brings me to something i want i did want to ask about i feel like apple tv i am not an apple fan i don't have a spy i do have an ipad but i don't

have any other products of theirs however i feel like apple tv has only made good shows I don't think there's a single bet. Did you have any interaction with them as a go or maybe any insight as to how they're choosing their products, making their projects, and how the look of them all seem to be consistent, even though they're made by wildly different people? It's not the ABC problem. I used to work for ABC. The ABC problem, there's like a mandate, you know. Do you feel, you feel like their shows like the same? Somebody else said that to me before they watch lessons in chemistry.

And I said, well, I feel like our show. is different but I'm biased but because they were implying they were like does Apple do something to their shows to make it all look the same and I said no I definitely know they didn't do that to us right but okay so in general I feel like Apple probably okay Apple was not involved with being on set day to day they I think they trusted us as filmmakers especially after they saw, you know, the dailies and knew what was happening. I'm sure they were

involved in the pre-production of script development and whatnot, but I don't think they were as controlling as you hear other studios to be. I do think they're choosy in terms of their projects because they can be

because they have a lot of money already as a business, so they don't have to churn out a Netflix factory like Netflix us doing, love the Netflix. But yeah, so I just think that Apple maybe just is more decisive on the shows that are going on. But like the morning show and C and lessons in chemistry, I mean, at least from a lighting standpoint, look totally different to me.

And I know they're using different lenses and everything. So I don't know. I don't see that. But I should backtrack. I don't mean to suggest they all look the same, but there is a certain polish to everything. Maybe it is just like they, like you're saying, they're able to be choosy, they're able to make sure that the quality is there. It could just be that. But there is, and I haven't seen every Apple show, so I can't say definitively if I feel this way.

But there does seem to be a pause. I mean, when we were talking to Greg Millington, he was saying that Disney has a library of their luts. Because I was asking him, like, how do all the marble stuff look the same? And they clearly can't have a handle on everyone. And he was like, oh, well, when we made Moon Night, we just asked for whatever let it was. And they gave it to us and we modified that. And I was like, of course they do. Of course they just have like a library of all the looks.

I heard you talking to Isaac about Loki 2 and which, it's a fantastic looking show. And he was also saying the same thing about that, but that, you know, that becomes like a Marvel thing, right? Like Apple, you know, so their Marvel universe is all like these certain characters, whereas, you know, at Apple Studio, they never talked to us about a lot or color timing or anything like that. In fact, there was never any direction from them in terms of, for us, as cinematographers. But, you know, I must just be a quality thing. They only get high quality work. I think so. You know, I mean, I appreciate that they don't have a million shows on their, on their network like HBO used to do.

I don't know what's going on on max now, but a lot. You know, I think less is more, you know, especially with so much content out there, it allows the audience to like focus on, you know, the show that's being presented at the moment. And I also really love networks that show one episode a week instead of watching 10 episodes in two days. for me it's like we work on these series for six months and then you watch the show in two days and it's like it kills it for me no i feel i feel i feel the apple didn't do that yeah well and like it look at uh like stranger things right it's yeah with that show insanely popular great show yeah and then they they they you stop talking about it after a week because you guys everyone watched it day one exactly and it feels like i'm gonna put on my corporate hat for a second.

If you want the show to be in the public eye for a longer time, drag it out. You know what I have another problem with? And, you know, there's like negotiations right now with like our unions talking about like what we, I hate when a show ends and then the credits come on. And in five seconds, it either sends you to the next episode or it. Yeah, or it like, it basically starts a show movie. It'll start a new movie. It'll start a new episode.

It won't show you the credits of the people that made the show. And specifically, it doesn't show below the line people. It shows five actor names and then it immediately goes away. And this is every streamer does this. And I really don't like that. I agree. Because there's so many people that work so hard to make these shows. You should have the option to click off of the credits,

but to just minimize it to a small, window and then you're like fumbling to try and watch the credits and then it goes to the next episode and then you have to go back it's it's pretty annoying yeah i think i think amazon might have the next thing in the bottom versus switching it oh oh that's good okay but yeah it's but even so it's down there and then it says like the next thing's coming in five seconds yeah and it's got this little countdown at least get 40 seconds or yeah that's actually why i'm I've given a lot of credit to Criterion before the streamer because what you were talking about about like a smaller selection. I think the curation every month they like kick off a bunch of movies and put on a bunch of movies.

And that thing does two things that I think is great. One, it creates a sense of urgency. You know, oh, I should watch this. Got to watch this. You know, versus I'll get to it later. You know, it kind of, I think all of us sort of need to be forced to ingest art these days. Not in a bad way, but like, encouraging. let's say um i need to get that streamer it's so good i know i i have been meaning to to get that

over here this uh this entire these two rows three rows these top two rows are all criterion discs i feel like they should make a discount um on the streamer um but uh criterion yeah but also just like the the um the curation itself like the fact that there's less movies is yeah interesting but also just the idea of that oh wait no i did that backwards the cur the the the in-and-out thing is awesome because they'll go oh it's it's it's halloween so here's like all of the black and white horror films for the 50s you know and it's and i love that there's like a the other day they had like a kind of a cyberpunk kick the other day it wasn't been three months ago um and uh they had like something crazy i'd never seen they had johnny mnemonic in black

and white what it had never been on a streamer and they had like an official version Wait, so Johnny Mnemonic, was that originally something else? Like Keanu Reeves did. Yeah, it's a color. But is, oh, so they changed it to black and white? They did a grade on, like, I don't know if Criterion did, but the filmmakers did a black and white pass. And it makes it super noir and it works way better, in my opinion, than the color version. Oh, cool.

Because the color version is kind of, check that out. Can't be a little bit. But, uh, right. But the black and white version suddenly like makes it all sit, really. sit really nicely. And there's stuff like that and all obviously all the like behind the scenes like or not behind the scenes. I don't really do that.

But like interviews and stuff that they do on the streamers. So they don't they don't have features, you know, behind the scenes, things that you used to get when you'd buy a disc. Yeah. They don't have anything like that on there. They do sort of most of the time it'll be big long interviews with the filmmakers. Got it. Up to like an hour and a half long like sort of making of documentaries. But they don't have quite the like behind the.

the scenes, you know, Lord of the Rings extended edition type. Right, right, right. I've actually pitched this idea to a lot of DPs on the show. It's like, we all need to band together and see how much the rights to special features are on DVDs and just create a streamer exclusively of that. Yeah, we could sell it as an education platform so like students could write it off and shit. But I, I've heard you talk about that. And I think that that is a great idea.

It's the one thing that I loved when I would buy Blu-Rays and DVDs because as a filmmaker, it's like that I was always interested in how it was made, you know? I would watch that sometimes over the movie, but yeah, I don't, but, you know, it, then it falls into like a question of who owns that, right? Like, is it the studio? Will they part with that separation of movie and feature? At this point, why not? because you can't it's not even found on their streaming sites you know well it's free money for them right and i see like you can negotiate a deal where like they i they're not listening to this so i can but like i feel i'm you know i'll give the game away a little bit but like i i feel

like they don't value don't give too much yeah yeah but i feel like they don't quite value it monetarily so like we could probably get like a decent deal off of it and then yeah um and not have to charge too much because the other thing I want to do is just like with your um um different languages put street put commentary yeah it's an mp3 put it it's 20 20 megabytes put the put the commentary in the in the language thing any any so like while you're watching a movie you can switch from subtitle or commentary yep and then you can hear the filmmaker English, Spanish, German, Japanese commentary. I think that's a good idea.

I did, but go ahead. No, they used to do that all the time. You know, you'd watch like the movie and then there'd be a feature where the director and DP would talk about the movie while it's playing. Oh, it was, that's bringing it back for me. The famous one, it's, I mean, this isn't going to be a shock to anyone. But like, there's a famous one of Ben Affleck doing Armaged.

have you seen that no oh dude i think it's on the criterion actually because armageddon's in criterion funnily enough wait he didn't he didn't direct he was just in the commentary yeah yeah got and uh he's questionably lucid uh and uh is just really like at one point he's like i uh was talking to the director about why why is it easier to change you know to train drillers to go to Spate while like they're NASA of course they can learn how to drill and I guess the director just looks

to him go shut the fuck up Ben that's on the commentary oh yeah no there's a highlight reel on YouTube you can look up of Ben Afflex Armageddon commentary and he's just making fun of Bruce Willis it's so good that would make it funny

that would make it better I did I just looked at my notes again I did want to ask you on hard pivot to your show again you didn't shoot the whole show that's not very common to shoot the whole thing yourself what was the relationship like between you and the other DP and like how did you communicate about the look and

was there a look book and how did you keep everything consistent yeah so this actually out of all the shows I've shot on television this was the first one I was doing with another cinematographer. Just because I've done a lot of 30-minute shows and even the hour-long shows I did, I don't know why, but they had me doing all of them.

There is such a plus, after this experience, to working with someone else, strictly from a prep standpoint. You can properly prep with your directors for your episodes and feel like you did all the homework you needed going into it.

It was, I can't tell you how amazing that felt. And I think the work shows in the show because I wasn't scrambling and hoping that the directors did their own prep like I've done in the past with some of my other shows. Because once you start shooting, you know, if you have director seven, you're like, okay, good luck. I hope you know where you're doing, you know,

because you have like an hour to sit with them. Anyway, so Zach Geller is the other DP. He, you know, I did, Lessons in Chemistry together. And Zach and I didn't know each other before the show, but if I could do a show with someone again, it would be him. He was just an unbelievable collaborator in many ways. You know, he was never, he happened to go first,

but he never treated the show like, this is my show, this is how it was shot, you will follow these rules. And I've heard that happen in other situations with other people. Um, and the interesting thing about this show is that it is, number one, it's based on a book, but it's a, it chronicles a woman's life. And the way it's set up, each chapter almost feels like a different moment in her life. Right. So it's an anthology, kind of. It's an anthology. And I really do believe that in general, there should be consistency throughout a show, um, because you have different directors and different DPs. And, there needs to have this consistent line of what this project is, but beyond that, each episode really gave us a lot of freedom to do the things we needed to do cinematically to tell the story properly. And so Zach and I, at the beginning, before he even started shooting, we would talk about the show and we even looked at our own lookbooks from when we both interviewed separately

and we shared some images together. So we were already on the same page. in terms of, like, what direction we needed to go with. And then as he started shooting, I would come downstairs and kind of check on what they were doing. You know, I looked at a little bit of the dailies, just so I knew the direction that he was shooting. But from the beginning, he was like, please, whatever you do with three and four, it's your show, as much as it is mine. And so that was a really nice thing to hear. And it just so happened that in episode three, you know, there's a death art that happens at the... Yeah, hard pivot.

So there was a lot of freedom for us to do the things we needed to do. Yeah. Yeah, it's a gorgeous looking show. How do you, that just made me, I don't think I've ever asked this of anyone, but obviously we have a shot deck now. But when you're putting together a lookbook, kind of how are you doing that, but also like is how much of it is kind of trying to. appease the director like trying to get the job kind of and how much of it is you trying to put yourself in like how do you trust either side of that equation it's obviously a tricky it's a fine line right because you want to put images you read the script right they I actually didn't read the book before I got the job or even before I started shooting the show because sometimes you know writers change changed the direction and I didn't want to get confused. So I read the script. There were two scripts that were produced before Bolusack and I interviewed, and I read them.

And like any other interview, I went into Shotdeck and some other areas that I searched on the internet and found images that I felt connected to what I read. You know, I think that if you're trying to, you know, you have to put on page what you think. the show should be and if it's wrong, then that wasn't the right job for you. But if you're crying, and this is my opinion, but it happened to me once on another television show, I put together a lookbook and two minutes into the interview, I knew the showrunner didn't agree with what I put on and I knew I didn't have that job. And that was okay because that is just how it work sometimes, but you kind of have to put your stamp and your feel. And the best thing you could get is they're on the interview with you and they go, your lookbook was amazing. It's exactly what

we were thinking. You know, that's the images that we found. You know, it's like, yeah, I guess I got the job or something. But I don't know. You kind of have to take a risk to an extent. You know, in film school, one of our professors said when you're interviewing and this was pre-Zoom interviews when you're in the room, you know, you ask the director questions as much as they're asking you questions. And it is important because you want to learn what is the process that, what is the, what's the story that they want to tell? How do they, and is it the same story you want to tell? Like, you know, the director starts talking about handheld for the whole show and you're like, oh, this feels like a studio show, you know, like you need to know that. But in terms of imagery,

I think you kind of just have to, I think you have to. go with your gut yeah um shot deck man what a an amazing library shout out to larry i've been trying to get all i've seen him at so many events and i'm like hey you want to do the pod and he's like yeah and then and then i you don't hear from him because he's busy he's going to interview you the way i mean i it's a larry is one of the best interviewers on the asc clubhouse stuff i i love what he does but really it's um i think every filmmaker is so appreciative of him and the team that puts shot deck together. It's unbelievable how helpful it is to do the interviews. In fact, sometimes I feel like I want to look for images elsewhere now because

everybody's on there. But it has so many images that how could you not? You know, I think, I think sometimes what I run the risk in, sometimes I try and pull photographs, you know, still photographs. And I used to early on in my career pull like paintings and things. But Some directors don't fully understand how that could relate. You know, like if you're showing a painting, you're talking about, hopefully you're talking about color or the way the contrast is feeling in the painting or something. But it really depends on the director you're talking with because some of them may not see that so clearly as like an image from a movie or reference of that sort. Yeah, one of the earlier episodes that I did with Tim Ives, I asked him.

I was like, oh, I can't even remember how this came up, but he's like, oh, I love photo books. And I was like, oh, which ones? He goes one second. And he comes back with a stack. I mean, just like, it went out of the frame and did like a show and tell with me of every. And I ended up buying like as many as I could find that weren't a million dollars.

But like, I've really became after that interview. I really became a photo book guy. Photobbooks are great. In art books in general, I mean, I think that process happens. You get the job and then you start looking at. images together. And that's another thing about your interview lookbook versus where the show goes after the fact. Like you, you find images that relate. And sometimes it, it, you know, you stick with those images. But a lot of the times they feel like you find one or two images

from that look book. You talk with the director or showrunner or whoever about working off of that, you know, that idea. Because things change, you know, as as the other department heads start talking, you know, the production designer starts showing images that they put together and you're like, oh, that's great. You know, it's a team effort. Yeah. The, uh, what was the, what was the lookbook for Tim and Eric? Ah. I don't think there was a lookbook for that. I don't remember. Honestly, so that, that's so funny. I did three quarters of the first season of their show. I didn't know who they were. And I don't know if a lot of people did, but their true fans did. And I remember shooting that season and I was like, what is this? This was crazy. It was crazy. But then like so

many of my friends went through that like factory of Tim and Eric like other. In fact, the guy that I worked with our casual, he shot the second season. You know, my friend Rachel did their movie. Like it's just, it's amazing how how many people I know have worked with them since. But yeah, that is that is early on in my career for sure that that show I mean there's a few not like it but there's a there's a few shows where it's like all right and here what we're going to do we're going to break every rule of of filmmaking because that it had such a early internet feel to it that yeah it was shocking that they allowed it on television oh my god I mean it was adult swim so it's like late night but we were shooting

with like a DVX something and DVDX 100 yeah and like really basic lighting you know from wooden nickel and you know it was that kind of show but that is a good question I wonder how I got that job I must have brought in something to show

them I honestly don't remember yeah did they call you or like did you apply for that? No so no somebody referred me in fact I think it was my friend Rachel who referred me because she had gone to NYU with like editor or something like that.

And so they interviewed me, but I don't know. This was like one of my very first jobs. That's, oh man, if that's not what they prepare you for. Well, maybe when I was in college, but dumb, heavy air quotes. But yeah, you're like, I'm going to go. I'm going to be the next Scorsese. It's like, no, you're going to shoot too many cooks. Oh, we're going to.

But they're, you know, their show. I mean, I don't think they're doing their show anymore, but it really didn't change. The look didn't change throughout the seasons stayed pretty consistent. I mean, but that's, what's wild is like, you know, you've got shows like the office that, you know, the lexicon has endured, you know. And there's still to this day, people will just be sitting around and someone will be like, oh, how much does that cost? Like, oh, it's free. And then under their breath, someone would be like, it's free real estate. Like there's just floats that pop up from that show everywhere.

Yeah. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. For sure. It's rad. Well, I've kept you a little over, so I'll let you go. But I'd love to have you back on whenever, because I know we could probably chat forever. Or I guess you're in L.A., so we could probably...

I am in L.A. We can go get a coffee or something. Hell yeah, man. Yeah, but this was so much fun. I really appreciate it. And I appreciate you watching the show. Frame and references in Alibod production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can go to frame and refepod.com. and follow the link to buy me a coffee.

It's always appreciated, and as always, thanks for listening.