Frame & Reference Podcast - 13: “Boys State” DP Thorsten Theilow

Episode Date: April 22, 2021

On todays episode of the Frame & Reference Podcast, Kenny talks with cinematographer Thorsten Theilow about the Sundance Grand Jury Prize winning documentary “Boys State.” The documentary follows a thousand 17-year-old boys from Texas who join together to build a representative government from the ground up. Some of Thorsten’s credits include the films “Robin Williams: Come Inside My Mind” and “Ariana Grande: Excuse Me, I Love You” and the documentary mini-series “Allen v. Farrow.” Enjoy the episode! Liking the podcast? Leave a rating and review on your favorite podcast app! Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello, and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and today we're talking with Thorsten Thilo, the DP of the film, Boys State, which is a documentary about a week-long sort of summer camp almost, political summer camp in Texas, where the high school-aged boys are split up into two different mock political groups, and then they have to come up with, you know, agenda items and all kinds of things. And it's supposed to get them ready for jobs in government. And so it is,

A fascinating look at the mind of kids today, you know, high school boys today, which I was one at a point. And so seeing what has changed and what hasn't was fascinating. I did not grow up in Texas. I grew up in the Bay Area of California. So the local politics are slightly different. But, you know, boys kind of universally have very similar characteristics across the board. generally but it's a really good documentary and you know sometimes can make you angry sometimes can make you happy as any good film does and so highly

recommend you seek it out let's see I did not turn on my camera for the first two minutes so you'll have to if you're watching this sorry and you may notice a couple cuts just because Thor was walking around his house, you know, kind of operating around his family that was working at home. So hopefully you don't even notice, but I figure I should say it up front just in case you do. Yeah, as always, try to keep this short. Please enjoy this conversation with Thorsten Dilo. The documentary was really, I've said this about a couple other documentaries that come come by my desk but very affecting the first uh yeah the first five minutes five 10 minutes really got me like that's the mark of a good documentary i was like angry

and then and then it's like okay there's nuance oh god how did you uh how did you get involved with uh with this project so we're talking for i state right yeah yeah um so jesse moss and i had worked on about I think four previous films together and we love working together I love working with Chessie and and we both have I guess we're we love sort of intimate very much filmmaking and small crews that's about building connections with people and form relationships and um yeah so we bonded over that and and and we kept working together on projects and then and then when this project came on we i think we're actually on a shoot for this project and um we knew this might happen but then we got a final red light from

the final green light from um the american legions then they said you you're in you can shoot it and we hopped on a plane and we flew to Texas and started casting people immediately. It was a huge job because how do you find the most compelling people amongst 300 kids? Yeah, they're all high school boys. And they're all high school boys. And we knew that they had their own selection process that was already, you know, they're coming to an end and we

wanted to certainly capture some of that too. So we had to rush. And we just jumped in. How many people were on the crew? So it began as just me and Jesse for the casting for maybe 10 days. We crisscrossed around Texas and Amanda did an amazing job talking to people on the phone and sort of filtering out kids. And then Amanda came to Texas and we did another round of more intense casting and filmed a bit more with people.

people we really liked or resonated with us. And then the actual event was six days. And we had seven cinematographers. Okay. And the way that worked was we, the way we wanted this to work is we, we wanted to attach one cinematographer to one subject. So they could form a relationship from the beginning and they would just know that that cinematographer.

and go away, they will follow them for the whole experience. And if we had sound people, a few producers, an assistant. So I would estimate maybe 20 people total for the week of the actual event. So it was just one week that you guys were filming essentially? I mean, for the bulk of it. The bulk of it. Yeah. You know, the opening credits, you see some of the selection process.

we filmed more some of them didn't make it in the film and during the casting process conversations boys had and but some of the stuff

like you know Stephen campaigning that that happened all before but the bulk was the bulk of the film is six days and and it

yeah yeah anyway I was just going to say it feels like a marathon like they could have been that could have been six days or six weeks I know

it was a marathon. It was a marathon. And if you look at it, it's the number, seven, seven shooters for six days, that's a lot of shoot days, but it's also not that much shoot days for a feature documentary. But it was a marathon. We had a, we had a war room where we, you know, everybody had the equipment and everybody came in and out. And the producers had a huge board on the wall with all the events that we wanted to cover and the movement and making sure we're not missing stuff. And it, it was a it was quite an undertaking it's overwhelming yeah the um that that's a very uh for for such a seemingly uh militaristic style of of mentality for the kids that kind of is uh how you guys

had to approach it i would assume very like regimented like all right b unit go this way a unit go this way see it go that way report back here with full cards yeah yeah some of that was like that yeah um but a lot of it was intuitive because we had we had a pretty clear idea that one cinematographer would follow one character and and so there were sometimes additional events where we pull people when that wasn't much happening but for the most part we had a pretty good guarantee that we won't miss much if each of our characters had a camera on them at all times sure yeah how long yeah how long did it take for um the kids to kind of get used to cameras following them because especially i you know i always think about like the history of of of filmmaking

um in various forms and one of those things is like if you watch the earliest films you know the the hand cranked ones people are just locked into can they've never seen one before and then the middle we're all kind of used to it and then now with like the internet generation they're all back locked into it because they think they're going to be on the internet, you know, and not like a home movie. Right. Right. Yeah, that's an interesting question. You know, we, we, we, we did worry about

exactly that, like, the Instagram and, and what is the other app? I don't even have it. TikTok's the big one now. TikTok is a big one now. Like, generation where, like, everybody's going to look into the camera, but it was it didn't take much time

and it's often the case with people in general but because they were boys and because I think their experience was so overwhelming to them to navigate this world that first most characters already had a camera on there before they knew us

and they knew the people they were attached to the cinematographers and there's moments when like you know one of our characters walks in the room and kids that hadn't seen a camera like wait what is that but it was also made clear to all the kids in on the first day and all the orientation that there's going to be cameras and so it wasn't it wasn't much it was they they pretty quickly forgot about the camera which was beautiful to see did did you notice a um uh sort of emotional change of any

like did they did they perk up and start performing in a certain way or did they were they really just being themselves. Because that's another problem you can worry about with documentaries, I would assume, is the camera changes the way that the subject interacts with their world, let alone you. Right. Right. You know, that is

so hard to tell. Does the camera make a difference? Yes, absolutely. It does also a reality, right? Did some of the kids maybe perform or act up? Absolutely. And yet, I think there are so many raw moments that those are the moments that stand out. It's often hard to tell.

Especially without knowing them beforehand. Without knowing them, yeah. What were your camera packages? We had, so we needed because we want, you know, because it was so spread out over the entire campus. It was lots of walking, lots of sort of distance, miles of walking per day for the kids to get from the dorms to the meeting rooms and whatever to the capital. We needed to have a camera that's small and where a cinematographer can function a full day without an assistant. There wasn't going to be somebody that hands your lens or a battery or media. So everybody had a little fanny pack.

A C-300 mark two rigged out for who I'm like. however people wanted them. Most of the packages, I think all of them were small, like tiny and some media, one lens, we shot the whole film on one 35 prime that was dialed into an F2.

And, yeah, and some media, that was it, a good mic, a stereo mic on board, it was tiny. The, it's interesting, the whole film was shot on a 35 prime.

Yeah. Yeah. Because that's one thing I noticed is a you know what was the what was the decision behind um the two four oh aspect ratio that because the whole time i was sitting here it was like this is a very cinematic documentary and it's it's of course you shot it on a prime right i mean it it we i think we had sort of a four-stage decision-making process for it for the visuals one was um how do you how do you make a film that has

is its own visual piece of art and has sort of a continuity visually if you have seven shooters. And even though some of the people, a lot of the people that worked in the film I know and part of them are a part of this small cinematographer collective

and we worked together before on many projects and we have similar sensibilities, but everybody still shoots slightly different. And I've seen the documentaries where I had, you know, shot a ballpark of a documentary with like five, six cameras. And it's really hard to pull it off

in a way that it doesn't feel like a patchwork visually in the end. And so I pushed very hard. I shoot a lot in primes, even for Verite, and I love I love the way that a prime

lens acknowledges the presence of the camera in a different way in the zoom lens. That's because it's more honest in a way because you're right there and the viewer sees that they feel you feel that in the film that if you're like right behind somebody there's a different energy than when you're in the corner and you're zooming it yeah and so the prime makes you explore angles more and be more present in the space and i love that because you move instead of just zooming it now you move around in space. You get more angles. You think more

cinematically. You get overs. You get lights. You move around. And I think that resonated with Jesse. And we've done some very shooting in that fashion on previous films. So we wanted to look cinematic. And so we decided we're going to try to make it visually coherent through limitation of that one lens. We're not going to give everybody a zoom lens. And we also made it an obligation to shoot an F2. So you're not going to get, I mean, you know, sure, like if you're a little closer

to somebody that will feel changes slightly, of course, like even in the feature film, you see that, but you're not going to get some of the stuff looks flat. Some of the stuff looks cinematic. It's going to be one F-stop, just like, you know, a DP and a director rate feature film at a certain F-stop before they start shooting. And that's what they shoot most of the shots with. as much as they can. And then the widescreen was partly informed

through some of the casting we did and scouting at the locations. And we understood quickly that it's going to be a lot of problematic locations with no windows, overhead lights, it wasn't cinematic. And we filmed a bunch of conversations that happened around the application process in some of the universities in Texas, with kids sort of supervised talking about issues of our times. You know, and they sit at round tables. They sit all over the place.

And so we experimented with that format, and we saw that if you're so wide and you're so wide in your frame, it's really beautiful how you can have. two, three, four, sometimes five kids, if they sit around the table, in the same shot. And you can play with the focus in the way you tell the story and where you're sharp, but you still see reactions of what that person is saying on the side.

So it becomes a more whole holistic image of what you're getting. And we love that. And so to be able to do that, to see more happening in the frame and see people reacting to other people without having to shoot an over was really interesting to us and then also

just you don't need to see the overheads just cut them out. You know what I mean? No need. And then we shot the whole casting with that aspect ratio. We cut a sizzle. We had no time.

We had like a little bit of funding for a sizzle to get really approval. And we put the balls on the top and the bottom and we submitted that and everybody was like, oh, my God, I'm watching a movie. This looks like you're watching a film. And so everybody loved it and we went for it.

There is, that's definitely something that I think about a lot in my own work. It's like, there's especially, you know, online, but there's a lot of conversation about, like, what is cinematic? And I think a lot of it has to, there's overt strokes, you know, like a 240 aspect ratio. Or in some cases, you know, anamorphic flares or something. But there's more subtle ways to manipulate the viewer into thinking they're watching a movie. And, you know, shooting on Primes is definitely one of them, shot selection. When you cut, you know, what does Fincher say? It's about what you don't do, you know?

We're not going to use zooms on this. You know, we're not going to show the overheads. And it is funny because it took me as a filmmaker. It took me probably the first 10 minutes to realize it was in 240. Is that right? Yeah, I got sucked in. What movies do you make? Right now, right now, I mean, shit.

Mostly commercials, fashion stuff, music videos. You know, the classic, I don't have a real job yet. Amazing. Well, at least you're making the big bucks, I hope, with the commercial. No, not like not commercial commercials, you know, local commercials. At least for L.A., they're a little bit nicer than, you know, your car dealerships. But, you know, it's always a process. How did you get started in documentaries?

I actually, I got a high-eight video camera for my grandfather. That was the first camera I had, and I loved it. and I just kept shooting. And then this is a funny story. I interned in seventh grade a week at this filmmaker's, he's a cinematographer's little shop. It's a mandatory thing that you do in Germany as part of your education. You go out into the world for two weeks and fitness something that you're interested in.

And I went to that place. And above his little shop was, a couple that were part of, there was a terrorist organization in Germany, ARF, that they kidnap people, politicians, mostly. It was like, hard-calling, left-wing. And they killed people. It was a big deal in Germany, like, changed the entire landscape of policing works in Germany now. But those two people were part of the active part of that, and they ran. sort of the publicity operation for the ARF.

And they had, and so they, I go friendly with them and they had an entire like pneumatic studio. So like, you know, eumatic before beta come,

they had this like, like, pneumatic cameras and huge, like, decks, like the videotape recorders to put the, anyway,

and they, they, just had it standing standing around and so i i they offered it to they offered for me to to to take it with me and i took it the whole thing my dad came with a truck and picked up the entire thing it's like a spaceship full of stuff and um and then i started a television station in my town we got a permission from the from the state to broadcast one hour per week um into the local cable network on Sundays. And so my friends and I made little pieces, like little news pieces about what's happening

in the town and interview people, the mayor and even the priest and did all these little things and it was like the most amazing time. So we became a little news station and the town loved it. And I just knew I was going to be, I was going to do something like that. And when I was 16, my first. father is a scientist, he wanted me to go to like a specific school for, you know, engineers and physics and chemistry and whatnot. And I said, I can't do that. I'm creative. I want to. And then he said, well, and you cannot live in my house. And so I left at 16.

Jeez. And and started a job and became an editor. And then I edited for 10 years. I became really successful in editing. Like at 19, I had to lie about my age. I had to, I edited feature documentaries. And I built this whole post-production house in the capital. And yeah, that's how it's done. And so I'm sorry, that's a long story. No, that's fantastic.

That's a, I mean, everyone, so far, like, you know, we've done about 14 interviews and everyone kind of has the same, like, you know, and I was the same way. Grabbed like a high eight VHS camera, just started shooting, fell in love with it. But that really, your story really takes a, An interesting turn. How has editing affected the way that you shoot? Because I know for sure once I, you know, in college I was bouncing around.

I knew I wanted to do cinematography, but you do stuff for your friends, you're working on other projects, you're doing multiple jobs as you're learning. And I have continued to edit my own stuff or stuff for other people, color correction. And they've all informed on cinematography. Yeah, yeah, totally. You know what shots to get, that kind of thing. yeah no that's totally true for me too and actually the person that took me in when I was 16 was a really well-known and talented cinematographer

and I said I want to be a DP and he was like well you need to shoot you need to edit first to understand because I do three years of editing and then and then you become it and I sort of like loved it at that point so much and obviously a young kid and became so successful and so that got to my head I was like oh my god I'm going to be an editor This is amazing. Yeah, I made like dayways and stuff at like 17.

And so I just edited it longer. But to your question, I, you know, it's interesting because I do think that the process of editing really, really informed the way I think about story and how the nuances of how to tell the story and what you need to really actually tell it. That really helped me. And then in some ways, it was in the beginning when I started choosing. actually counterproductive because I shot for shots. I went for shots and I had to dial that back over the years to really when you have a moment it's not first about the shots it's about the energy it's about the dynamic between two people and if it's gripping you don't that's not the first

instinct to like hold five second shots and then you have you know it's about holding the shot and drifting and So I had to really grow out from that, I guess. But yeah, I agree with you. Like it informed everything. It informed so much about how I think as a cinematographer in how to tell a story. Yeah, because I guess there's two parts to it, right? There's like the mechanical, like, will this shot cut together with this shot?

But then, like you were saying, the emotional. That's something I definitely had to learn is I would get in the habit. I started off, like, one of my earlier jobs was filming concerts, all the concerts that would come through where my college was. And I would get in this habit. I'd be filming. I'd be filming. And I would be like, that's awesome.

And the second I thought, that's awesome, I'd pull the trigger and stop the clip. So I would get in the edit, I would get all these things. I'm like, this is amazing. And then the clip ends. And I'm like, what am I doing? Yeah. Yeah. Were there any lessons like that that you've learned on the job that you.

Oh, absolutely. absolutely yes exactly like what you just described i did that all the time in the beginning i first started shooting i was like and what was funny is that because um i was also editing i i was working a lot for for a european um organization called ate it's like a bbc version of sort of europe's mainland it's a collaboration between spain germany and france and switzerland um and they have you know they have a big solid budgets for documentary and whatnot and all offices around the world and i would very quickly when people realized oh that guy can shoot and edit they would send me like to anything that happened like any like you know hostile situations and floods in africa and whatnot so i would

travel and then i would shoot and then i would come home and edit my own shit and submit packages There's like 15-minute mini-documentary packages to them. And that's when I realized, dude, like, don't do that. Like, don't cut when you think you have to chart. Like, that's mostly, isn't that so interesting? And I still think that every single day, even I shoot now, when I shoot very, it's like, when my instinct is to like, okay, got it, this is great. It's like, then, like, go the extra mile and stay another hour.

Yeah. Because there's always something you hadn't even anticipated. That's the beauty of documentary, too. There's all the stuff you didn't anticipate is what really, and then understanding how that could actually be important and then following that and sort of letting you guide by what's happening. I think that's some of the things I've learned is don't ever stop. And that was also part of the biggest conversation we had in our initial meeting

when all the cinematographers were there. It's like we don't cut. There's no cutting. there's no we're not going to why those kids from day one on need to understand we're going to be there and we're going to grow on everything um yeah it's really interesting i just shot a documentary about COVID um and the frontline medical workers in the hospitals and it was brutal because we spent you know 10 12 hours in the hospital every single day with like a full nurses shift or full physician shift from like picking them up at home driving to the hospital see 15 people die all with math and then drive back home with them and you're like you know by the time you get to the house with them they had a 14 hour day i had a 15 hour day but then the choosy stuff comes after that right when they call them wives or when they call friends or when they just break down

and like to like just tell yourself I just got such intense footage for 14 hours amazing scenes full of trauma and emotions and everything and sure I could call it a day

but like the real stuff is going to come later and it's just it was a reminder every single day that like when you think you got it it's like no this is when you start how do you stop yourself from sort of directing as you're shooting because you know as the camera person especially when the subject trusts you I feel like there can be an instinct to um you know obviously you're

going to move them like hey actually could you stand towards a window real quick but like even prodding you know you see like you were just saying these people come home and start calling their friends do you go obviously you wouldn't do this but as an example like speak up you know that kind of thing How do you, how do you, if you can tell that there's some mechanical reason that you're not going to get that shot, how do you navigate that? I mean, I guess that's it, that is a lot of what I do is, is sort of one person banding. And I, I, I over the years really have learned that that it is a huge difference between two people in the room, two crew members, and that means a director and a cinematographer

versus just one. It's huge. Because that sort of dynamic of them and us goes away. And so for that reason, I've been focusing on projects where I can do that where directors trust me or where I can co-direct and be completely by myself,

build a relationship, intimate relationship with people. And some of that, did in boy state in the beginning we didn't hire sound people for that reason and then realized very quickly that actually that was not a good idea because it's often 90 kids in a boom yelling at the same time so we actually had to dial it back in higher sound people but those were also not intimate situations but um i firmly believe that they absolutely no interactions when i film with my subjects even if i fuck it up or i notice like i'm gonna miss it

i do occasionally i would i would like you know when there's a phone call when the phone rings before they pick up and i understand now that it's going to be an important call i would say could you put in loudspeaker um something like that it depends on the situation who it is also like what my relationship with them but i would never ask to like stand somewhere else or like move over there i would just like i guess that's part of the dance of the choreography is like anticipating what's happening and then being at the right in the right space the right location for the light and between the light and my subjects and what i want to film i guess like that's when

you master it you you you anticipate that and often it works sometimes you fuck it up it doesn't work it's it's it's the it's a game but i think i think it like to me very too filmmaking is really about not interacting like it's an it's an interest dynamic and we we discussed this actually often talk about why state is like when do you put the camera down and And, and now, like, there's, there's some need to interact with your subject. And you feel that. Like, with Stephen, when he breaks down in the end, we all put the camera down. That was one of the very few times you put the camera down.

We hugged him, we cried with him. Like, there was no need to continue. It was, we could have continued, but there was a need for us to be with him in a direct way. And sometimes I have to put it down. What's that? Be more human about it. Yeah, before you're aware about it. Yeah, yeah.

But other than that, I try not to direct as much as I can on documentaries, just accept reality as for what it is. Yeah. Which that's really special about Chessie and Amanda as directors, because there's so many directors that come into a project with their own vision and thinking, this is a story, this is what we want to tell. And Jesse isn't like that. He embraces that.

And he makes sure that he understands what's happening and then he positions themselves to be in a position to follow that and to let the story guide him. But he doesn't come in with a preconceived idea of what this is going to be. And it's really big because a lot of directors, I so often feel like you're like, you're not listening. Just listen.

and let that guide you and don't try to make a film that you had in mind be like you know bernah how so excited best it's like if you come back with the documentary project you set out to get then you have made a big mistake yeah yeah it that's an excellent point that because i've interviewed a lot of uh documentary filmmakers for this podcast and um they all kind of share the same i i have not shot a lot of documentary mostly shoot like i said starting off it was concerts or events or anything like that where there are elements of verity to it. I'm not like, especially with a concert, you're not going to interact with the musician while they're performing.

But at the same time, in my head, I'm like, this is going to look cool. This is going to, it's all about looking cool. You know, they want to look cool. The project needs to look cool. Yeah. Yeah. There's not so much of a ethics to it like there is in documentary. You know, you're not making a music video in Boy State. you're making a

right right I almost said a living document talk to me about the the sort of mechanical workflow

of shooting this thing so you're saying you're filming for 12 hours a day let's say 14 hours a day

you're just cruising through cards I assume what happens at the end who's like you know you're handing it off how's it getting

logged and captured and all that and like what what made it easier for you guys yeah so i think each shooter shot maybe about 10 to 12 hours per day sometimes a little less like you're not rolling all the goddamn time sometimes there's just really a dull moment and you

cut um and you need to eat and stuff so it's not like we didn't get 12 hours of footage each from each shooter each day sometimes that that was the case but most of the time it's like eight 10 hours and be had enough cars i think everybody had like 10 500 the 12-gigabyte cars. There was plenty. And we did have one assistant for everybody, and she would occasionally, like, try to catch you on the campus

and get some media from you. So to get a head start, but we had a team of downloaders who had, like, a whole, like, I think four computer station, and they worked in not a 24-hour, but, like, it's like some overlapping time situation where one of them came in

like early more like late morning and the other one stayed until like super super late and so they were able to like download four cards at the same time I think and like all the fast cards and so I think it took about like

20 minutes per card it wasn't that bad but they still got a lot of stuff but they kept track and we would there wasn't a whole lot of communication between the shooters or the crews with like the post people really but it was it was like there was always a producer or director in in our big war room in in one of the dorms where we would come in and check in and it was

actually quite beautiful because a lot of the times everybody was excited about what their character did or what happened and it's like oh my god this was an amazing moment and I would guess what? I got this. And then this is going to happen tomorrow. And so they would download and sometimes like people at the same time. And Amanda is brilliant in the way her brain works. She's wicked smart. And she would take that all in, write it down. And some of it copied to the big, huge whiteboard we had to keep track of it. So it was like a verbal relaying information to the directors and producers from all the people. And then they would, so, have locked that in and then obviously like in post there's a few months of screening i think

jeff screened like three months just watching as long they and amanda also they watched everything every frame shot they rewatch that which is a big job yeah that was going to be my next question is like how do you there's there's some that i wish that would get installed in cameras and that's like the, oh, this is a good moment metadata tag. Yeah. You know, it's just something where you could click it and it'll like save a point. Right. And so you could bring that up in the edit.

Was there any of that like physically done where the shooter would be like, oh, you know, at whatever the time was, this is like something I, it's good. Or they just were like, we're going to watch it anyway. So it doesn't matter. I mean, the only thing that happened was this like, you know, the conversation at the end of the day or the next morning. hey this is like my highlights but it was all verbal like we would talk to amanda and chessey and we would we would and sometimes you would even like get a bunch of six-packs and sit somewhere outside at like one o'clock in the morning having a beer and we would exchange stories that we experienced

because for man like jesse it was impossible to be at all seven shooters all the time right it's like it's really hard to give up that so it was a lot of talking yeah were there no moments I don't think anybody was, like, logging any moments. Like, you just, you know, you were too exhausted and too, too focused on what you're doing to, like, do anything. If any, we would sometimes text to the group chat saying, like, hey, I think, I think I'm hearing, like, this group is, like, having a special event at five here. Maybe we should have a second shooter there, and the team would react to that if they needed to, it was more logistical. were there any moments for you that stood out that like you you know you sort of gave you chills while you were filming yeah certainly the moment with stephen and he didn't win and when

went back and called his mom and it was especially emotional because i knew stephen from the beginning and and i i spent his time with him campaigning and he was very private about where he comes from and you know as as an immigrant he wasn't to bring us into his house and not like a lot of the other kids who lived lavishly with filthy rich parents he was different but but so for for a lot of the kids or for some of the kids like going into this you you know you you would you would at least think oh maybe this is like a nice summer camp for them for For Stephen was always more.

For Stephen, this was like he was in the politics. He was, like, campaigning for better. He's, like, giving speeches already. He's, like, in there, like, hanging out with the crew, like, in the local canvas offices. And, like, really, like, being interested in this. And for him, it just meant a lot. And just, just knowing all that and having. spend all this time with him when he didn't win.

And he, I knew how important this was to him. And I expected him to slam the door on my face and say, get the fuck out of here, I'm done, which a lot of people would have done, but to be invited into this moment and for him to let me in and be right there means a lot. And it meant a lot in that moment. I was super emotional. and we had a beautiful talk afterwards.

And it's one of us, we have moments when what you do and we try to do to build a relationship with people and to connect with them and to be there with them, but also keeping a certain distance to them, when that actually works. You know, often you try to build that. And then in the key moments, they shut you out because they can't handle it.

They don't want to share. So, yeah. that was a meaningful moment. Yeah, I did notice, this isn't quite a cinematography question, but there did seem to be, like you were saying, the summer camp aspect, there was, it did seem like a lot of those kids, like when they're doing the bills, when they're coming up with bills and stuff, and kids are like, you know, whatever, no farting on Thursdays, like just complete. Yeah.

Nonsense. How much of those, what would you say like the ratio was between your Stevens and your, and your goof off kids? Man, that's really hard to tell. I think there was a really, like, the American legions, they did a pretty good job with, like, school counselors and to sort of go through, like, there's a sorrow sort of, like, application process

that included an interview, and a lot, a lot of the kids were, like, in debate, whatever, like, I don't know, groups in their schools or, like, already like politically involved in something and a lot of the kids came there with serious intentions but then it's also like 17 year old boys I honestly like the first watching it I had huge first two weeks of college vibes like the I went to Arizona State which was a big party school and like those first two weeks I still remember vividly and it's this weird

like the energy off you're suddenly meeting hundreds of new people who like how do I reflect off those folks you know was there because this was in Texas a lot of the kids leaned pretty

conservative would was that something that boys state sort of selected for or was that only because it was in Texas because it did seem like there was a lot of kids who were like, you know, I'm a good conservative like anyone else. And then they'd start saying, but I, you know, campaigned for Bernie.

And it's like, well, then you're not a conservative. You're just saying that because these people are listening, you know? Right. I mean, that was so fascinating to us that, that, that, I mean, first of all, they, you know, they, they understood the political process. And it's a, it's a conflict that, that a lot of real life politicians have all the time. where did I stand what what does how does that resonate with their base with the state or and then on top of that they got they got randomly selected into the two groups so no matter of where they came from they still had to get on board with the party light whatever they decided to do right right and yes like Texas was interesting I mean we we read Jesse and Amanda read this Washington Post article that had come out the year before where the kids in Texas, the Texas boy state, the previous year, they had voted

to secede from the union. Oh, right, right, right. Yeah, that's brought up in the document. And it was like, you know, there was like a big slap in the face of the American allegiance. They did not want that. And they, and, and, and, and, but it still happened. And so that's what drew our attention to Texas.

And obviously, Texas is politically fascinating. cosmos really it it it has a lot of liberal little nooks in in the bigger towns but then it's widely so so conservative so deeply conservative and religious and and for us that there was a you know it's a big it's i mean it's a big conversation a national conversation all the time what is texas thing whether we're sex is that and and so it it made it double interesting because of that. Yeah, Texas definitely has its own self-imposed solo behavior. You know, I grew up in California and obviously we're always the target of everyone's anything, you know.

But from day one, you just know of Texas is like, there's America and then there's Texas. And, you know, that whole don't mess with Texas thing was about littering. but they took it as like no we mean that all the time like it's it's very a braggadocious you know very bravado driven yeah which i've always wondered if like that's uh the identity of the country that we're all supposed to take on or if that's the one that's leaving or what you know is that old is that is that current i've always wondered about that as it as it pertains to the rest of the country. Right.

Yeah. Did you... Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. No, no. No. I was going to sit. Yeah, go ahead.

Was there anything that you noticed in the kids that gave you a surprise or hope or even potentially sadness? Anything that the kids taught you, sort of? That's a good question. I was inspired by the... by the way, those kids went pretty deep in what they discussed, at least the ones that took it seriously. And I didn't expect that depth from 17-year-olds.

I expected a lot more like, this is a big spring break party time and we're just going to have a good time. But it became really passionate for a lot of the kids. And, you know, some of the kids actually changed the way they looked at things because of conversations they had. No, that was actually fascinating that there was, that there were conversations that I filmed where you could see that something they had, like abortion, right? Like, there's a lot of kids from rural Texas that have very, very big indoctrinated views on how that should be handled. And some of the healthy conversations actually opened the eyes to kids, and they learned to have a conversation with the other side.

We heard that so many times that there's at least. what I walk away with on this week is even if I have a profoundly different opinion or sensibility to a certain issue, at least I can find a healthy way to talk with the other side. I heard that many times, and that was beautiful to see it. And just the pure energy in how they went into this. Some of these kids were fighters, and they wanted to win, and they wanted to get shit done, and just, like, mass.

masculinity, this like young kids, like, they're cess for life and they can, this like feeling of we can conquer the world. It's really inspiring and beautiful. And I, I'm pretty sure that some of those kids, they, this was a long lasting impression on them. Oh, there's definitely something to be said for those. Like I said, you know, it reminded me of the first two weeks of college, but at the same time, it also reminded me of, like, I went to a film school that was like a six-week intensive over at Universal Studios. And, like, I made friends for life there. I mean, six weeks is not longer. One week, but, like, I remember, like, every minute of that. And it was very formative for me, you know, it's meeting. It was the first time I had met,

like, you know, I grew up in a town of 5,000 people. We were all pretty much the same. we had mildly different backgrounds but we all you know when you're when your high school has 80 people you all just learn to get on and get over it you know there's no there's no tension there so meeting people from outside areas and and that that initial especially for something like this with a lot of boys I assume there was a lot of pecking order type stuff you know you see that one that one guy's name um who was like I was just making the whole thing up trying to figure out how I was going to win. Robert? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rob, like, he's, you know, immediately he took alpha mode.

He's like going from purse and purges, like, I'm going to win. I'm going to win. I'm going to win. And everyone's like, shit, man. Okay. Yeah, here you go, signed. Whatever. Whatever. I mean, Robert is that I mean, one of the, one of the kids that really like did a 180 and some of those things he said. And he, I mean, the, his revelation to, to actually admit that whatever opinion you have, sometimes I have to go with what, what, whatever is. is like best by the people you have to lie essentially that's what you but you know Robert also has a real alpha father super successful guy and there was a but like there was a good portion that was like trying to impress his dad that's my hunch anyways he was like I'm gonna this is like you know I'm going to come home I'm going to be like I'm going to be government I want to impress my dad right a lot of that is also played into that I think sure well all We're about up on time, and I'm sure you've clearly got some things going on at the house. But I like to end each interview with two questions.

The first one being, what is an everyday thing, whether it be a way of life or an object? One person said light meter, another person said comfy shoes. Another person said kindness. One thing that every day has made you a better cinematographer or something you take with you no matter what you're doing in a work situation. And the second question is feel free to plug anything that you want to plug, any personal

projects or anything like that. What do you mean by that? What do you mean? Sorry, that I may not... Oh, just like if there's any, if there's another project on the horizon that you want to get people excited about. Oh, I see. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's a good question. It's a bunch of things, but

I think curiosity is what... gets me going every single day to listen to inquire kindness is a good one too because that's a big big part of it is being kind but yeah for me I'm curious I'm curious to hear people's stories and I'm super excited about this COVID documentary we just had a name we found a name for it it's called the first way Oh, that's a good name. One of the most amazing

variety projects I've ever worked on. It's directed by Matt Heideman, who directed Cartel and a bunch of other documentaries and also fiction films. And we're grading next week. We're premiering at a big major film festival very soon,

hopefully outside somewhere in the park where people can actually come. And yeah, it's it's been a real right to see the dark side of the first wave in New York firsthand through the eyes of medical frontline workers. There's a beautiful, beautiful time to work, and it's a beautiful film. It's a really, really powerful film. So I'm super excited for that to sort of meet the world.

Yeah, we'll have to have you back on and we can talk about that one. Yeah, that's going to be, that's, man, it's only been on our mind every second of every day for a year now. I know, I know. It's wild. It'll be nice to see it sort of not simplified, but codified and like something digestible, you know, because we only have our own experiences for what it is. Man, that was the weird thing was, you know, you go your whole life, people telling you that you're going to, you're doing a career that will never go anywhere. and then I was the only one employed you know people still needed stuff

edited people still had things that needed to be colored so I was getting those gigs but that's amazing good for you buddy yeah just praise praise B man I don't know who I don't know who's smiling down on me but I appreciate it yeah yeah totally I know and I feel so much for the people that were even more isolated

because they couldn't work and they couldn't see people it's like for me was similar my reality really just didn't change. I just kept working. Yeah. And then I never got COVID during that project, which was a miracle because I was like right there. I remember the first time I was in one of those rooms and somebody coded and stopped

breathing and everybody rushing it. And I was like, there was like a FaceTime situation. And I was trying to get the angle to see the person under. They were holding, you know, the iPad over his face. and I was like, down low to see him in the foreground, to see the iPad of the family members saying goodbye. And then you feel the sweat running down on your face into your eyes. And like, this is like, and at this time, like, you were all so free.

We didn't know how how you get it. And like, okay, this is the moment. You're going to get, this is like, boom, right? Like, your hair is full of COVID. And then that never happened. And I got COVID this January, like almost a year later, filming out in San Diego actually I was shooting for a week out there

with people that refused to remast and then I got it and I feel like I don't know like you know it wasn't that bad I mean for a lot of people it wasn't I know like four or five people who got it and they just went right about their day

you know it didn't really affect them that much yeah yeah so it's really hard to accept that like okay we do this because we couldn't get the hospitals overflowed. We did this to protect the weak and the sick. But really did we need to change the entire society like this for this? You know what I mean?

And I don't really don't mean to sound arrogant, but that does pop into a hat. Like, wow. What a crazy time this was. In 20, I mean, hindsight, obviously, 2020, you realize the year too. You really, you know, like you said, we didn't know. for all we knew, like every step I remember the line, you know, five people in Ralph's at a time, you know?

Yeah, yeah, I know. But hopefully that line leadership is also a bit of an issue. But hopefully next time we run into a national emergency will be a little more prepared as a group. As a nation, I hope so, yeah. Hey, it's been so nice talking to you. I have to jump, but.

Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much for doing this. I can't wait. Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate your time. You too. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Frame and reference is an Owlbot production.

It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. Our theme song is written and performed by Mark Pelly, and the F-At-ArtMapbox logo, was designed by Nate Truax of Truax's branding company. You can read or watch the podcast you've just heard by going to ProVidiocoolition.com or YouTube.com slash Owlbot, respectively. And as always, thanks for listening. Thank you.