Frame & Reference Podcast - 130: "Ferrari" DP Erik Messerschmidt, ASC

Episode Date: February 22, 2024

Our third ever returning guest and a crowd favorite, Erik Messerschmidt, ASC is here! In this episode we talk about his work on Michael Mann's "Ferrari" as well as David Fincher's "The Killer" Enjoy! Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.frameandrefpod.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for everything F&R You can directly support Frame & Reference by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Buying Me a Coffee⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coast's leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠⁠Filmtools.com⁠⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello, and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and you're listening to Episode 130 with Eric Messerschmitt, ASC, DP of Ferrari. Enjoy. I was I was lucky enough to see the Ferrari screening with Michael Mann and Denis Bellew and at the Academy screening or whatever. And then they were just hanging out eating snacks with everyone. I figured they would have bailed real quick. Sure. So I got to meet up.

So that was cool. But I feel like that was like the best way to experience it. Yeah. But I would like, are you cool talking about? the killer a little bit because I think there's an interesting like comparison and contra plus everyone's lucky enough to have the most recent ASC magazine where the two right compared and contrast

but I did notice um because I learn in uh comparison is my point um but both films have very naturalistic uh lighting and are very um kind of similar an approach it feels but completely different looks yeah uh which obviously ties into the similar uh deep but um i was wondering kind of what the approach was for Ferrari on um obviously locations are going to be very helpful you know those all your like actual literal locations um did you kind of take this did you and did you from our last conversation

did you learn anything from um from devotion You know, having all that action and whatnot, which is another film that didn't look particularly stylized. Is that just kind of your approach or do all three of those directors kind of ask that of you? Or is that just kind of how tight shake out? I mean, I think my automatic place of, you know, where I start is for naturalism. I just think it's like, you know, we're photographing something. It shouldn't be, like, it should sort of come from a place of realism, you know. I mean, Gordon Willis is my hero.

I sure. I think he was doing stuff that no one else was doing. And he was, you know, he wasn't just putting someone in a glamorous key light because there's space off the camera right. She looks great when she's lit from camera right. You know, he was like considering what the environment is. And, you know, not a lot of people were doing that at that time, really. You know, people were still very stuck. and this kind of Hollywood, well, this is how you do it.

This is how you light a close-up, you know? And, but for me, it just makes kind of logical sense. It's like the environment should be real. It should look, it should remind the audience of what that place is. You know, in the case of Ferrari, there's, you know, absolutely, like, visual references that we were using, in particular, like, Italian painting, you know. I literally wrote down Caravaggio. Yeah, good.

Yeah, I mean, that's what Michael said, yeah. Oh, good. Good. But, you know, but Carvaggio came from a place of realism, too. You know, the light comes from what's in the frame. You know, he's like, the light comes from the candle. The light comes from the window. The light.

And then it's like the subtle use of contrast and direction and blocking and stuff all supports that idea. But it all comes from a place of, well, what does the space look like? You know, for me, it's like the second I try to think outside of that, you know, like where I'm sitting now, there's a big window in front of me. you know I can block the window and I could put a light over here and I could shape it it never looks as good it just doesn't you know if I like try to try to manipulate it out of what it kind of naturally is you know it's like um it's like force feeding something you know right but I mean I also think simplicity is always better and like less stuff is always better

It's like, you have to, like, you know, the director should be nimble. The director should feel like they can, they're not constrained by all this stuff. Unless they're like, look, I want it to look super stylized. I want this, this, this, and this. It's like, okay, well, that's going to change, you know, where we can put the camera. But, you know, I mean, the killer is stylized, but it's all stylized from a place of, like, you know, naturalism, I think. And Ferrari is very much the same way. Yeah.

for like people who are starting out or whatever you know it's very easy to say oh keep it simple and then someone goes off and does that and it looks incredibly uh like you can see the light you know like one thing that that really helped me out was just getting a color meter and lights that actually had like x y coordinates and just matching sure exactly matching everything sure it's um kind of what what are maybe some pitfalls you see when people try to work with the given light and then It just doesn't quite look natural. Well, like, for me, it's all about camera direction. It's like where you put the camera.

Like, it's, you can either make it really hard for yourself. You can make it really easy, you know? When people go for that look and they fail, it's usually because they're putting the camera in a place where that just doesn't work. You know, it's like, you know, for me, like every location has like two or three good shots maybe and then a lot of really shitty ones and it's you know and ultimately it's like hopefully the director is on board or they're you know they're aesthetically inclined where they can see that um you know i find sometimes people are attracted to locations um

and not because they're not because of the visual opportunities that they offer but because of the story opportunity that they offer and then there's there's occasionally conflict there you know like um people love the like the feel of a location when they walk into it you know sometimes directors they walk in they're like just love how this feels um it doesn't mean that that feeling is going to be it's going to be communicated to the audience though you know or they have some you know sometimes people make autobiographical films and they want to go shoot in their hometown and they're like it just doesn't look like how they imagine it you know and it ends up being like well what are the What are the aesthetic things that remind you of this place that make this place special and how do we exploit it?

You know, um, and, and usually there's like two, it's two things that's not 50s. Right. Um, but I, you know, I think, I think people get really obsessed with equipment. I think they get, you know, they want to, they, they, they, they read American son of a tariff or whatever. And I'm like, I want to use this piece of camera or I want to use this camera or or so and so shot with these lenses. I have to have these lens because I just don't really. believe that. I just don't. Most of the good work I've done, I could probably do on an iPhone. Yeah. You know? Well, to that point, I think this is going to sound absurd to certain people, but like

just picking a V-Raptor and a Sumilux is a pretty, that's a pretty like neutral base. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I don't believe that it's, I just don't think it's the camera that gives you the look. And I don't think it's the, you know,

I think there's, there's Dan Saki who gives you the look. Well, he can help, you know, he can certainly help. But that's, you know, that's all icing on the cake, man. That's like the last, that's the last 2%. It's not, you know, that's not the decision. You know, like I do commercials all the time. People like, I want to shoot anamorphic.

Okay. I hope you don't have a product. Well, you know, it's just, it's like, it's, to me, that's not where the look comes from. It's not where the drama comes from. It's, it's, it's, you know, certainly. a choice you make um but it shouldn't be the primary choice like i don't think of it as like the most important you know like the most important choice is all about the cinema grammar and how you're going to tell a story and you know i can um you know a shallow depth of field

and close focus and all that's like 400 different ways to achieve that kind of thing you know all with subtle differences and in um but but they don't they don't make the commercial better and they don't make the movie better you know the like what's in front of the camera has to make the movie better and where and how we sequence it. That's really what matters. It's like, you know, I love to stand here and be like, oh, it's all about the cinematography. It's really not. I just don't, I just don't believe that anymore, you know. Well, it was, uh, you guys who taught me sort of surreptitiously about how the importance. And I've mentioned just on this podcast anytime, but like the importance of

production design. And now like that make, that makes you as a DP look way better than any camera or lens could possibly, uh, do for it. 100%. I mean, like the painter is the most important person. And, you know, how we're going to, you know, how do we keep the walls dark? How do we, you know, how do we maintain separation? You know, it's like, well, bad set is really hard to light. Good set is really easy to light. You know, that actually reminds me of two things. Well, hold on, you're right.

I started writing notes in the middle of conversations instead of forgetting every five fucking second. So that's an upgrade since the last time we spoke. Your episode's actually the most listened to episode. Oh, no. The top five are a narrow margin, but you are technically number one. There we go. I did want to add, because you had mentioned the animal thing with commercials, is it reasonable or practical to kind of do the thing that you guys have done, like The Killer or Mine Hunter, where you art direct flares and all that on a commercial, or does that take a little bit too much time and VFX for something that potentially might not have the budget? Um, well, everyone has to be on board, you know, it's like, I'm doing that on a commercial now, actually, John, I'm going to shoot a job next week where we're going to do that. But, um, in, you know, commercial things is tricky because it, what happens a lot these days, especially in the United States, less so in Europe, but in the United States, the agency just takes the footage and then you're not, you don't participate in it anymore. Oh, interesting. You know, um, in fact, I see commercials sometimes that, that, that could graded by somebody. I'm like, wow, wow, you made that decision. Okay.

well. I didn't know I shot that. You know, yeah, that's not how I shot it, you know. I mean, it's, but that's the, you know, that's the Faustian bargain you sign up for when you, when you shoot a commercial, you know, I mean, that's just the, they're just the arrangement. And, and, and that's

made very clear, you know, so it's like, I, really elaborate kind of post-workflows that require a lot of nuanced thought and consideration or maybe not recommended in those kind of environments, you know? Right. um but uh but sometimes people you know really get into it like they might see the killer and be like i want to do that look said well okay well you have to do x y and z um uh it's totally practical i mean there's no it's not sophisticated by you know in terms of the application

technique of the equipment required stuff it just but you know it requires people looking at it and and tweaking it you know it's not like it's not a plug in you just drag and drop and after effect you're like oh there's the killer look you know right or uh Well, yeah, I'm, you know, I did notice you guys were using scatter in terms of, in terms of plugins. I love scatter. More or less a, but it only works on Apple. Yeah. Can't use it.

As my job in a pro video, I had a bunch, because I was reviewing like all these film emulation DCTLs. And someone was like, oh, you got to do film box. Because they have like a few things besides scatter. And I was like, I'd love to. I got to wait. Yeah. Yeah. guys. I tried to find

you. A friend of mine sent it to me. Another DP, Mark Doreen Powell sent it to me. It was an old, old friend of mine cinematographer, ASC member, and because we're always trading, like, you know, geeky stuff like that. I was like, oh, this is interesting. And I sent it to Pinscher.

And he was skeptical, of course. He's like, well, shoot a test, show me. We shot a test. It was like, oh, okay, we could use this. yeah um you know i don't actually i don't i don't use diffusion filters very often i i i gave up on them yeah everything's always that really frustrating exactly yeah and it's like i always get the effects i get the effects when i don't want them and i don't get enough when i do and i can't control it you can't pan from a hot window to somebody else you know yeah i don't know i don't yeah less less stuff it wish i wish they could be tunable i mean i guess that's what you're doing

post but like where you could like rot like a like a like a like a rotopola but fritaltration well that's the great thing about scatters you can keyframe it you know so you could start on a back you know on a window and then you can friend you know you could be at a um you know a quarter or whatever and then you can pin over against a dark background you can you can increase the value uh you know that's you can't do that practically um you know i mean to me it's like it's all about the it's a final look it has nothing to do with i'm not nostalgic about it i'm just not. It's not like, oh, well, I have to use diffusion filters because that's how Stanley Cortez would have done it. And it's like, well, I think Stanley Cortez would have used every

single tool at his disposal as well. You know, it's like, I always try to think about the end results and what the best path to that is, you know, not so much about like, you know, it's like the film and digital conversation. You know, it's the same thing. It's like, well, what do you actually want it to look like, you know? Well, now people want it to, I've noticed, stuff. People want it to be 4-3. They want it to be VHS-E. And now I've noticed in commercials, tell me if you've gotten this in a brief, every, not every commercial, but like 50% of commercials almost have a still photography on-camera flash thing going on. Like, it's just like collages of still photos. Sure. That shot with an on-camera flash. I'm like, this is so fascinating because I could absolutely do that for you, American Express. You're right. That's very.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's cyclical, I guess. And people, people look at the trends of who, you know, what sort of images are influencing people. You know, we live in a time now where Instagram and TikTok, you know, the 9x16 frame is oftentimes like more, it reaches more eyeballs than the 16 by 9 frame. Oh, of course. Yeah.

You know. And I don't really fault anybody for that. I mean, I obviously like to shoot stuff in Lenscape when I take iPhone phone. It's like, it's always horizontal. But I actually, I actually don't have an anamorphic lens for my phone. I'll put a, put an ND filter on it. But I've started playing with that now. That's funny.

And, you know, I thought you're going to go. Sorry. I did want to return to sets, though, because in Ferrari, there's two, I had take, where's my note? I saw it, because I saw this in November, so I'm trying to remember, talk about the Godfather influence a little bit. Oh, the top, like, so there was two, two sets, the office set, like that kind of green office set, and then, but, bu, blah, where did it go? They have an argument in, like, a living room. I noticed something kind of interesting about the office. It's incredibly sparse.

Yeah. I was wondering what the, what's the point? What was the, what was kind of the decision making? Because it's literally just green walls. Like I would expect something on there. My filmmaker brain was kind of. That's, well, of course, but that's what Enzo's office looked like. Amos like, of course.

No, in fact, at the Ferrari Museum in Modena, there was a recreation of his office. And it's exactly that. It's a brown, simple brown desk with a telephone. a photograph of his son and a pen and nothing on the walls no books, no imagery, nothing. And that was important to Michael.

You know, Michael wanted to, you know, of course, like the, you know, the art director kind of cinematographer brain of yours is like, well, can we put a picture on the wall back there? Maybe we can break it up. We put it, you know, it wouldn't be realistic. And that's really important to Michael. And, you know, when we lit it,

I just, you know, I just overhead fluorescence. I put the chlorosins on, and the windows are kind of blowing out. You use actual fluorescence for that, right? I did. Ah, I did. Yeah. I figured they, I love kinos, but at this point, it's like, even something like a mega light cloth or whatever. You know, just those massive light blanket's just so easy.

No, I mean, well, we see them in the frame sometimes, and, you know, it's like, oh, sure. It's always tricky for me that, this balance of how much stuff. to put up in the sky the kind of make your life easier and against how that's going to influence the director's choices

and where we can put the camera you know the second you start arming in backlights and putting up pipe and you know it does start to look very studio lit really quickly

right and you know that wouldn't have been right for this movie I mean this movie is basically it's all about soft frontal top light and that's kind of what Italian

painting looks like, you know, like if you look at a titian or a tintorette portrait, you know, it's all kind of lit from here. It's kind of lit like, I'm lit now. You know, people might be like, oh, well, that's flat. And it's like, well, yeah, it is because it's all about color contrast. You know, it's not, it's about. And Caravaggio, too. I mean, Corragia is all that hard, soft light, you know, this like distant far, you know, soft light sort of, you know, that almost looks hard because it's through the aperture of the window, you know. But it's all single source. And sometimes it's, you know, it's, uh, sometimes people are lit quite flat actually.

It's just the contrast of the entire image is, is stunning. But, um, you know, but, uh, yeah, I don't know. I, I, I, I always like walk into the set. It's like, well, what should, what should be there? You know, it's like, it's the worst thing when, when you work with, uh, designer or something where they, they have, you walk into the set and it doesn't. doesn't look like anything before you've done any you know like like we should build a walk in the practical should be on and it should look like us like a

workable space right in my opinion you know it's like if it's an office there should be the lighting in there that it would be for an office and then we can turn it off and tweak it obviously but like it should always start there it's like and you know saying well you're gonna light it right it's like well no no no like it has to be lit and then we'll adjust you know in my head for whatever reason an analogy that popped up was Disneyland Q lines they're very pre-lit you know you would never go into there and be like how are we going to fix this for if you were to yeah yeah yeah yeah i mean you know like it should it should it should

be something yeah the uh yeah that off i was just thinking that office being so sparse in reality is such a interesting character trait because in the film obviously it's you can get the opinion that he cares more about Ferrari, the company, than his family. But not only does that not suggest it, but I also don't believe that's the case. Right. I think he was just, it seems like you would know more. You studied the guy. But like, uh, it does seem like he, he did care more about his family and was really bad at showing it. Sure. Well, I mean, it was eating, et cetera, but I guess that's very Italian. Yeah, I think, um, I mean, the movie is all about these polar opposite forces pulling on Enzo, you know, his family, the, the, the, the, the, the factory,

you know, business against racing and all of that stuff, you know, the two women in his life, the children in his life. It's, I, it's, I think that's very much, very much the movie. And that's kind of why we wanted the movie had to have two very different looks. You know, you get in the, you're in the kind of dramatic portion, um, with, with, uh, penelope. and Jalene and, you know, all this stuff that happens in the factory and all those conversations. And that's a very, that's a very specific kind of aesthetic. And then you get to racing and it's, you know, it's all visceral and high energy and

and disorienting, you know. Yeah. The Penelty fucking crushed it. Yeah, she's amazing. I did, I think you want to finishing that thought on the sets. The argument between them in the living room. for whatever reason I was really enamored with that scene visually yeah um was that kind of a similar thing I saw like a behind the scene shot where it looked like there was just some like two banks

up top or like yeah I mean it's you know he wanted to move the camera a lot in that space which is always scary for me um and uh so I hung that was a situation where I hung some lights up in advance and I hung some light mats that I would have the ability to to um um to adjust quickly and we blocked that scene on the day so um you know it wasn't like we rehearsed that you know Michael Mike rehearsed it in the office with them and sort of you know started to work on the tone and the rhythm of it I think but but in terms of the you know up on its feet staging we rehearsed it that morning and shot it um and uh so I kind of had a rough idea of how he was going to lay it out but not not really and I knew that he

was he wanted to move the camera and um so yeah I I I I threw up some backlight and I, you know, sort of above where the practicals were so I could wrap my practicals a little bit. And then, you know, he put Penelope in the middle of that room sitting on the chair. And I just put a, you know, like a muslin china ball above her. And, you know, she was, I was watching the rehearsal and she was doing this thing where she would kind of like look down. And then when she's powerful, she'd raise her chin. And she has this hair, you know, sort of like protects her face. from everything and um and i said i said to her i said um you know is i know you're gonna play it

are you gonna play it like that and she said why i said well i'm thinking about doing this thing where i don't i deliberately don't put any light on your face when you're looking down and then when you look up you're just have the slightest kind of thing and that's like an interesting accent you know it's like an interesting kind of punctuation point for the performance if you're going to play it like that i think you know but but that's kind of and she loved that she was like oh cool yeah it's okay that's interesting. She kind of can play to the light a little bit, right? Right. So, yeah, when her head is down, you can almost, you can't see her at all.

And then, and then she just raises, it's just this little bit, you know. And, yeah, I mean, it's pretty down. That seems down. But it has my favorite shot. My favorite shot in the movie is her standing next to the lamp when she's really given it to him. You know, it's like it's amazing. And it's got this kind of leather feel to it. And it's got a, you know, it's real, you know, almost like you can see. smell the incense in the room or whatever, you know, it smells like candles.

It should have like the air is heavy in that place. Yeah. The other thing that got everyone, pardon me, the other thing that got everyone was when she actually takes a shot at him towards the beginning of the film. Dog, the entire,

I mean, the mix was a little loud in that theater that day, but, uh, boy, that, that had every, yeah,

old head in the room. Yeah. Including me. Yeah. good yeah that was fun also the catch lights you nailed all the catch lights

there's always like just a little bit of something special in everyone's eye all the time and I was like I love the art of a good catch light well you know you can get away with so much if you can see reflection

somebody's eyes hmm you know it's like well my entire career someone there's someone in the background saying isn't it a little dark

oh you know um that's why like my joke is always it's not dark it's rich shut out you know but there's always somebody but really you know it took me it took me a little while to figure it out but really what they're reacting to is they want to see the eyes you know and that's always you know studio executives and account executives at commercials and I'm like just we don't want to see their eyes it's like well fair enough I get it of course that doesn't mean you have to put a shamir on somebody's face to see their eyes you know it just but it's true you know that the the expression of emotion

You know, the drama is all in the subtlety of the eyes and, you know, where the eyes are looking and how, how, um, how, um, how open they are, how expressive they are, how frequently they're blinking, things like that, right? Uh, and, you know, Gordon Willis does it better than anybody. I mean, the stuff in Godfather, God. I mean, he is like, you know, he was probably had a, you know, he probably had a 300 watt for now with a bunch of paper in it stuck right next to the lens, you know, but, um, but it's four under, but it reflects enough. So, you know, you might. You know, some of my work, usually I find I can get away with, you know, three, three, four stops under of actual exposure on someone's face if I get, you know, a really pinpoint eye light in the eyes. And, and usually that's, you know, my experience more powerful than just putting a bunch of front line on somebody's face. You know, the scene is, you know, in really dramatic scenes, where it's appropriate to be moody. It's, I mean, it's not like I'm saying, oh, it's everything, every shot should be, should look like clute, you know? Right. Right. Um, but, um, but, um, um, but, um, But yeah, you know, it's important. It's like it can be down. But there's, you know, there's this weird trend now in particularly in television where everything is just really muddy. And, and I think like that's, that's, that's okay. But if you don't have, you can't see what a performer's doing with their face,

if you really lose out, you're missing out on an opportunity. Yeah. Well, I think I have a theory, not. being in these rooms, but that, you know, when television more recently was like able to be more quote unquote cinematic,

everyone started shooting that way, like, oh, this cinema's dark, you know, and it's, oh, no, it's rich. But, uh, the problem being people's internet connections. Right. So like even if it did, you know, using Game of Thrones as the

kind of ultimate example, like even if on set, this actually, actually goes to your idea about looking at the fucking monitor instead of like a meter or whatever. But even if on set and in the grade, it looked perfect. It's like no one has an LGC1, like watching it, you know, perfectly in a backlit room and all that. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. And, you know, it's a, that's a push-pull. It's like, do you want your work to be, do you need to do your work for the lowest common denominator of the viewer? or do you hold the viewer accountable?

You know, it's like, okay, I'm, you know, I'm personally in the second part of it. It's like I, I'm not going to dumb down the work because 15% of the population is watching it on a shitty LCD television, you know, it's like, I get it. Everyone has different resources and, you know, but don't watch it on a shitty LCD television and then complain to me about how it looks. You know, it's like, I can't, I can't control everyone's experience. And, you know, the truth is, like, we never have been able to. It's, you know, you go into certain parts of this country or, you know, other parts in the world in cinemas. There's all sorts of stuff where, you know, the, you know, they change the bulb when it goes, when the bulb burns out, not when it's below 14 foot lambert. You know, there's really bad vignetting or, you know, things are out of focus or it's a silver screen and it's a laser projector and it's like all sorts of mismatched, really poor projection, you know, and it's historically, it's a systemic problem.

Um, you know, if, if there's a cinematographer, you start to really worry about that, you're not going to sleep wear very well at night. You know, I think it's like, okay, well, I have to be considerate of the kind of global change. You know, maybe I don't, I don't settle my blacks at zero units all the time because 80% of the population, um, has their, has their dynamic mode on and it's going to really crush it. Like, you have to be a considerate of that, you know, um, but, uh, but it doesn't, like, I have to be a, do what I think is right for the director and you know I'm a movie too you know it's like I can't just like uh well it does you know make me think about you know because the last four projects you did with Fincher are all Netflix am I over yeah is that four mank it doesn't matter uh yeah at least three um and actually Michael man did so I don't know if he told you this I assume he did but he said that he hired you off the back of mank That's true. I think, yeah, I mean, he, well, he called me to do, to do Tokyo Vice, and then I couldn't do it because the schedule shifted and I was already on Devotion. So, but yeah, he liked me. Yeah. I did too. But do you guys have to, you know, working exclusively for Netflix? I don't know if those are, do those Blurates come out? Because I'd love to buy them. I have no idea. Because I got, these are all my, finally, this is my nerd collection. Do you have to make certain considerations for, like you were saying,

or do you just shoot it as if it were going to be in theaters and go from there? Because those films tend to be darker. Yeah, I, no, I think we make one version. I mean, there's an HDR version and SDR version. Sure. You know, but we make the HDR version first because I believe it's the best. you know, it's the most it's the best example

of how we think it should look the, you know, to me, the difference the difference of the whole movie experience versus the cinema experience is not really image quality, it's, it's the size of the screen.

Like, happening? Yeah, like, you know, this thing that's super, common now, you know, people shoot large format and they, you know, shoot everything at a 1-3 and it's like, there's nothing in the frame and focus except for what's in the, you know, immediate foreground or whatever. That looks so cool on an iPad. Yeah, it looks so cool. You see that on a 40-foot screen. I'm like looking around trying to figure out what's, what part of the frame to look at sometimes, you know? And I think people get really seduced by that because they look

at it on the, on a, on an iPad in dailies, and then they look at it on a, you know, a little monitor on the set and I went, oh my God, it looks so cool. It's like, well, yeah, it does look cool here, you know, when you're looking at it like that. But you start to, you know, you step, step back at it and you look at, you know, at the IMAX theater, you know, Universal City Walk or whatever. It's an entirely different experience. And sometimes I think it can be really off-putting.

And, you know, that's, you know, so we take that stuff into consideration for sure. You want, you know, you want people that have a great experience in both places. And it's like, it's ultimately like, I don't. I never think about really like how cool the shot looks it's like does the shot accomplish the story beat that's required here

you know I think people oftentimes they make the decision from the other side of it like well what's the coolest thing we can do and that's very you know really a commercial kind of concept you know but totally

yeah I did want to quickly stop by the killer in terms of lighting again this cinematography podcast but it felt

it felt very much like like I don't want to say this pejoratively but like the formula was firing on all cylinders like it felt like everything that you know I've ever read about you know David's kind of process and now your process of the past few films

like all of it kind of came together the all literally the only thing that threw me off was is this handheld or is this done in post and i figured it was a mix but it apparently it never was no not really i mean there's maybe there's probably four real handheld shots in the movie i couldn't pick him out the one like where we're chasing michael down the down the yard in the beginning when he finds his house that's been broken into that's really oh okay um shot on the dolly that precedes that is really handheld um there's no handheld shots in a fight sequence.

Right. You know, yeah, it's a little lost, but there's not many real ones. But, uh, but, uh, but not, I mean, I'm glad, I'm glad you couldn't tell. That's good. That's good. Yeah. Did you, uh, do you know if it was just key for this? This is the nerdiest fucking question I'll ask you. Do you know if it was keyframed or if like, because I know like, do you know

Vashy? Of course you know Vashy. He worked, uh, other stuff. Did you use his little handheld presets? no he's had those out forever and I'm like did people just drop and plug and play those now you know what we did is I shot some I shot some like framing charts basically focus charts at the rental house

yeah various degrees I mean basically it was like no caffeine a little bit of caffeine another shot of espresso I'm like we got and then they had you know they have tracking markers on them the post guys would grab and that was like a place to start sure and then and then and then keyframe and adjust, you know. I think that's how he made him.

But anyway, back to the light. I was looking at the ASC mag earlier this morning, and it gives nothing away because it's literally like one shot has a neg floppy and then one shot has nothing at all. And I was wondering like that's clearly the most minimal approach. What was kind of the most maximal approach? You mean in terms of the use of equipment?

Yeah, because the past couple things you've done, that kind of seems to have been the theme. And, you know, we were talking about it earlier, that overall you kind of just keep things real simple. But especially with David, you and David's work, I've noticed it's become more and more simple. And I know that you guys have said it's, you know, I can't remember if it was you or Eigle who had mentioned that like, I think it was Eigle when he was talking about House of Cards, how like the camera car needed to be up in 15 minutes. um yeah and i just love that idea because i hate i hate setting up that's anything well you know the thing is once you this the the second you work with more exposure than than is on the set naturally you have to add it added everywhere you know in in proportion right so so if i'm you know if i'm in a set that's sort of naturally lit 12 foot candles or whatever and then i bring in

light through the window that now makes it 50 foot candle, but, you know, the background's going to be dark. That's not a complicated concept, right? But then they like, the choices start to necessitate other choices, and it's really easy to build things that way. So, like, I always look at it, like, okay, what's the absolute minimal I have to do here to make this workable aesthetically and also logistically, you know? And so if I can use a bunch of practicals in the background, and I don't have to light the background, I just have to work with the foreground. Then it's really easy. It's like, well, how much lights the back? background, give me, okay, cool. That means

I got to light the whole set. I got to light the actors to 12 foot candles or whatever, and then I just have to turn a couple things off and we can shoot, you know, and make it kind of look the way we want to. Right. I mean, the, the probably

the most elaborate setup on the killer was the night exterior outside the brute house. But it wasn't the thing that made it elaborate was all those street lights we put in and we put 5K tons of bulbs I was like, I'm sure. You know, it wasn't, you know, I had a condor deep in the background that was just lighting some trees. And then we had a condor over the house for the, for the fire effects when the house was on fire. That's it. I mean, it's not like, you know, you read these

American Senator Tartre for articles where everyone's like, they're, you know, showing their lighting diagrams. Like, to me, that's kind of like, it's the, it's kind of the wrong concept to give students. It's like, oh, you know, like, if only I had all these sky panels, it's like, Well, probably had all that stuff because the set didn't do a lot of it itself. You know, it's like... Yeah. And... Well, that is something I try to do with these conversations is, like, I used to be way more specific about it in, like, the first season.

And then now I've started just asking for like generalizations. But, you know, sometimes the type of light matters. But because I found in my like you're saying, those lighting plots, even like you'll go on Deacons's website and he's got all these crazy lighting plots together, which obviously putting one up that says like we had one key light isn't going to make anyone come to your website. But if you can simplify everything, you just go, oh, big top light. all right i can figure that out you know that maybe when you're a super beginner it there's too many other questions beyond you know the top light yeah i mean you know it's

you have to know the equipment in a way where it's going to tell you what you have to know what you're going for when you ask for the piece of equipment you know and and you have to know it well enough to know that it's going to give you the tools and that's experience i you know i think you know in rogers work rogers work is so brilliant because it's it's it's everything is very appropriate for what he's, you know, what he's doing. But it's so shot specific. It's like, there's also a lot of decisions, a lot of lighting decisions are made unrelated to the, the resulting anticipated aesthetic.

You know, for example, like, in my work anyway, like where I, all, almost 90% of my equipment needs are schedule driven. They're not visual driven. You know, it's like, and in my walk in a location and be, like, Like, man, if we shoot this at 8.38 a.m. between 830 and 945, it's going to look awesome. We don't have to do anything. Well, and the director's like, yeah, cool, okay, we can do that. You know, it's really simple.

See, we can do it in two shots, great. And then the, you know, and the AD comes over. And they said, well, you know, it's going to be, we're in splits the night before. We're not going to be able to start a hotel 11. We have to make a company move. And then, so, you know, it's actually, there's no chance we're going to be here until they'll four in the afternoon. It's like, okay, well, now I need a condo running all this stuff. and then they look at me and they're like, why do you need all this stuff?

It's like, well, like, I want to shoot at 8 a.m., you know? Like, I tried to help you out. Yeah, I tried to help, but it's like, what do you want me to do about it? You know, it's, um, I think people don't entirely understand that, you know, it's like a lot of these big Marvel movies, you know, they have these super elaborate setups. It's because they have no idea when the cast is going to show up. Right. So you have all these construction cranes out there.

There's nothing fun about having construction cranes on the set. I got to tell you, it's a pain in the ass. But if you don't, you don't know when Iron Man's going to, going to show up and it could be at any time it's like well i better have a i better have an ability to block the light out there you know yeah um so you know you have to kind of buy yourself the tools um so that you can so that you can deliver on the day because that's the expectation because when when they do show up you better be ready you know um but like i don't know if if i had the choice i like you know there's there's no part of me at all where

it's like, I have to have 48 footers around me all the time. Like, that's just terrifying. It's a cold pain in the ass. Cart all that crap around and figure out places to stage it and all that stuff. You know, it's like, much rather work with two lights if we can, you know. Well, and I assume the, uh, the novelty wears off the first time you do it. First time you're like, look at me. I'm a big DP.

And then after that, you're like, wow, that's fucking sucks. Well, you know, I mean, it's, you have to, you have to repent for everything as a D. You know, like all of your choices are judged. and you're taking resources away from the director any time you ask for those things. You know, it's like, right. I would much rather have that money go towards art department stuff, you know. It's like it's so much more important than having a bunch of equipment sitting in a truck that I may or may not need.

It's like, no, no, no, let's take the money and put it in their set dressing or paint or, you know, like, let's, let's build it out of steel instead of, instead of plywood so it actually looks good, you know, or whatever. like let's what do we have to do that you know the kind of machismo part of it where it's like look at all this stuff it's like well yeah I mean it's it's this also doesn't doesn't make you very nimble you know it's like oh can't count the number of times where it's like wow look at that look at the sky over there we should turn around oh shit all the all the trucks right okay well can't get that shot you know yeah so yeah that is something that I've learned from uh you and a few others, the importance of speed over a lot of things, you know, but I did, I did want to ask, because I know you said you had to go pretty soon, what, because of,

because you're basically first returning it, second returning it, what, is there anything that you could, comes to mind that you've learned between devotion and the killer that you've started to apply maybe specifically or maybe generally? That would be a different question. I mean, I, now I really ask for a lot of prep. Hmm. Yeah. Like, I'd rather, I mean, to be honest, I would prefer to just, just prep the movie and never shoot it. Really good.

It's like, nothing would make me happier than to just prep the movie because it's like, that's where all the dreaming happens, you know? It's like the second and again on the set, that's where every compromise happens, you know, it's like, oh, that thing you wanted to do two weeks ago, that's not going to happen. It's like, oh, but it was such a great idea, you know? and the prep like that whole like it's not fixed in post it should be fixed in prep and and i you know even if the director has it totally figured out being a fly on the wall in those in those early director scouts and pointing certain things out or having those early conversations with the designer or the set decorator or the location manager it just pays so many so much dividends ultimately in the in the movie for me and um so that's like that's now pretty

important. And then the other thing is like, I, I really feel quite strongly that, that grading um, is almost equally important to, to the shooting process. And it's like, you know, the whole concept of, you know, Ansel Adams. It was like, you know, half of his job was printing. Yep. You know, I mean, half of what he talked, you know. One of three books that are this fucking thick. Yeah, exactly. You know, you know, exposed to the hollow, it's mirror, for the shadows kind of thing. And so, you know, for me that the, you know, it's not color correction, you know, it's where the soup gets seasoned, ultimately, you know, it's that, it's that final step in the cooking process. And it, I don't believe it's where you find the look, you know, or you like, that's, that's not where the look should come from or, you know, otherwise it just stuff looks really graded to me. But it's, but it's that, that last two percent's the hardest two percent, you know, it's the hardest percentage to, to, to get. And it really, it takes time. time. It really just takes a lot of time. Yeah. Well, and to your point about, uh, I've spent the past basically all the pandemic and the, um, um, and before that and the strikes, like just

learning how to color grade my own stuff. Cause I, I will literally at this point on most gigs be like, and I will color it. Like, you might have a guy. I'm willing to like, you know, give you examples. And if you go with them fine, but, you know, you know better than me. But it, but I can save us some money and it'll look the way I want. Sure. The way we want, whatever. but to your point about prep i'm not the biggest fan of david lynch's films but i fucking love his approach like his all like even his master class which i saw a bunch of people going like this doesn't teach us filmmaking like it absolutely does it absolutely teaches you what you were saying like the dreaming and the and the ideation and the and the um sort of the he would

probably call it the spirituality of it um yeah where you do get to make those decisions and and uh where the fun happens you know i the way you know it was actually excellent the you know the dreaming happen or the fun happens in pre and the the compromises happen in production that's a great way to put it no totally i mean it's where you know it's like i my joke is always it's filmmaking is 12 weeks of hope followed by 16 weeks of disappointment you know it's like i and and and the problem is as you're as you're shooting you're chisling it in stone ultimately to some degree you know That's why, like, I, I am not, I'm not nostalgic about the photochemical process

because I'm never, I'm perpetually dissatisfied with what we do. And it's like, man, I always want another opportunity to improve it. Yeah. You know, yeah, it's like, you know, nobody walks out of the movie theater and says, well, at least they made their day. Right. Yeah. You know.

The schedule was held so well. Yeah. I mean, God, it's like, I mean, the movie didn't, it didn't really hit for me, but, I mean, at least everybody broke for lunch on time. You know, it's like, that's, that doesn't, those. Those things are important, but not to the audience. Right. You know, I definitely, I fight harder now than I used to for the things I know are going to matter that we're not going to be able to fix later.

Gotcha. I fight way harder for that stuff now. Well, you also have the sort of CV to back it up now. I'm sure when you were newer, it was a bit harder to get people to listen to you. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's always hard to get people with you. it's like you know but um but you know the other thing that i think is really important

that i've learned a lot is that uh usually everybody on the film set has a different set of they have a different idea of what success looks like you know like they have a different idea of what what how they feel when they walk away and they're like that was a great day like you know the the the actors have a completely different perception of what that means than the line producer, you know, or the, and the more you understand that, the more you understand what everyone else's agenda is in terms of how they perceive a good day, um, means you can navigate it much easier, you know, it's like no one has my perspective on what represents a great day, except for me. Um, and I was like, try to like get myself

in the director's shoes of like, well, what does the director see as a great day? Okay, how do I kind of get myself at least so at least we're a unified force towards everyone else that's that has completely differing ideas um you know like you know the studio that gets the they get the they get the cost report and the and the production report at the end of every day they have a very limited perception of of whether or not that day was successful did you shoot the call sheet did you break for lunch on time did what's the mail penalties how many how many how many pre-calls did you have you know that all you know the cinematographer um is responsible for a lot of those things ultimately and there's a very weird metric for how

that's judged um and it's not dailies you know right um and you know you have to you have to get good at kind of um playing that game to some degree i think so that everybody walks away and now i got that was a great day you know yeah totally yeah well i'll uh i'll let you go getting on to your uh whatever it is you got going but uh thanks again for chill with me i'd uh always love to have you back maybe getting a little uh deeper it's it's hard to balance two films coming out back to back and like try to give them equal attention um yeah no no problem but uh yeah man thanks again and uh you make really really good compromises but no thank you thank you it's not easy it's not easy yeah all right buddy all right take care nice to talk to you cheers you too brother bye

an owlbot production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by pro video coalition. If you'd like to support the podcast, you can do so by going to frame and refpod.com and clicking the link to buy me a coffee. It's always appreciated, and as always, thanks for listening. Thank you.