Frame & Reference Podcast - 136: "Drugstore June" DP Sherri Kauk

Episode Date: April 4, 2024

Today we're joined by the wonderful Sherri Kauk, DP of "Drugstore June" starring a star-studded cast lead by Esther Povitsky featuring Bobby Lee, Beverly D'Angelo, James Remar, and Haley Joel Osment. Her first scripted series, season 3 and 4 of CBS' The Inspectors, garnered her an Emmy Award for Lighting Design.  There, she also directed her first network episode, 'Scam School'.  Her cinematography highlights include "Sex Appeal" (Hulu), the SXSW feature 'LOEV" screening on Netflix, and season 3 of the Snapchat series "Endless Summer."She has camera operated on prestigious shows such as "The Big Leap" (FOX), “Insecure” (HBO), “The L Word: Generation Q”  (Showtime), “Making the Cut” (Amazon Prime) and the Sundance documentary “Akicita: The Battle of Standing Rock."Sherri is an alumna of The American Film Institute & Ithaca College. Enjoy! Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.frameandrefpod.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for everything F&R You can directly support Frame & Reference by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Buying Me a Coffee⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coast's leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠⁠Filmtools.com⁠⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello and welcome to this another episode of frame and reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and you're listening to episode 136 with Sherry Cout, DP of Drugstore June. Enjoy. Have you been watching anything before recently? That's such a fun question. Actually, the podcast, the camera out. I discovered it just a few weeks ago, and then I dropped into Chicago to the Shai

just a bit ago to do some additional DP work for the Shai. This is the moment my puppy has. decided to eat that bone. I put down an ounce for a little bit from her choice of activities for a moment. So I dropped into the shy Christian Herrera is the main DP. But the A-Op is, in fact, the Cam-Op from the podcast. So I did, yeah, so I did some quick deep diving because I had just kind of heard it and listened to it a little bit.

And then that's so exciting. So I'm a big podcaster. And then, of course, Barbenheimer this last year just took it over. And I just love that this is the exact opposite filmmaking possibilities. So that, to me, was just an experience of generation. Give me a word moment. Yeah, sure. And though my off-screen travel dog, I'm on the road.

Hey, Kotow, I love me so much. I'm going to take this from me for an hour. Right. There we go. That's got to be confusing for an animal. He just gave it to me. Right. I suppose that's the advantage of having cats. Probably so, yeah. So, I mean, I don't know.

As anything like Oppenheimer and Barbie happened like that, like when? What did that happen before the past? The filmmaking is phenomenal. Yeah. I thoroughly, I'm hoping that the studio, it's too early to tell. But I'm hoping that the studios got the message like, oh, people just like good movies and make their own fun and not like, hey, try to turn that marketing. Like the marketers didn't do that. We did that as viewers. We just enjoyed that. You can't strike, you know, lightning can't strike twice there.

Just don't try. Just make good movies. I mean, it is true. We do love a good biopic. So Oppenheimer right. for you but you're right i feel like there's already like the gummy bear movie coming or you know like the tricycle whatever the luba movies coming probably uh i hope they don't do that as well yeah mattel i mean did you do you remember the movie battleship no what was this one i mean i love

battleship i'm so glad i missed it maybe oh man so it was um right i couldn't tell you what your was Great. Well, so it had a good idea, I'll say. Did they have autonomous decision or did they somehow get placed on their grid? Aliens. So aliens shoot from above. And I will say, to their credit, the aliens shot missiles that looked like the pegs. Okay.

So that was fun. Again, the execution may be, you know, maybe too many cooks in the kitchen or something. but it was a good idea. I don't know if it was Margo or Greta who said in an LA Times interview, like there are a million bad Barbie movies we could have made. And there was like the one little bullseye that we were aiming for, like the one good one. And at some point you just go for it.

And you see, but it truly was. And I think both films landed because it's absolute detail-oriented, specifics to like those details that matter, like the classic joke when Barbie realized, like, oh my gosh, I need to see a guy to college. I didn't know I had work. Or like an Oppenheimer just down to the details of building that world and realizing like, oh my gosh, there was nothing there. And bringing to life like, oh, Albert Einstein was in the world and on the local campus. That to me was like, what? So it, you know, sure make all. of the biopics or all of the cartoons that we grew up with or dolls we grew up with but like you have to just know the world and bring all of that out

that to me is what makes it like something above and above the beyond that really plays into us. Yeah it is it is I suppose if you're not like super well super history buff might be going a little far

but if you're not quite paying attention I'm sure it's easy to think that Albert Einstein was 300 years. You know, like Picasso. People think Picasso is like a Renaissance painter. And you're like, no, that dude died in the 90s or something. Yeah. Yeah.

Totally true. Exactly. But yeah. Yeah, both of those films, I thoroughly enjoyed. Also the fun thing about no one dressed up like Oppenheimer, but you go into the theater and having everyone dressed up in their, you know, pink and stuff. And like they were getting really that, that was enjoyable. That's the thing that I think theater.

need to focus on more is like getting the experience side of it kind of nailed like if you can't go to the the Dolby version or whatever with the nice seats and stuff I think people get like it immediately feels cheap in normal the normal seating the normal experience should not be the cheap seats you know it needs to be like Dolby is the normal experience and then there's something that not 4x or 4xd or whatever that's all that maybe that's too far but you know just I did hear which I think sounds like a complete disaster but I would totally want to experience. It's a movie house

with a playground in it for the kids. I don't know. I mean, I was a mother of the theater. In the theater. So I guess your kid could be watching a movie and screaming and running and, but

okay, that's something. But who is oh, of course, Taylor Swift, all the Swisses that dress to impress you know, to get to that cinema, the concert cinema, the concert film. That, to me also, it's like the event, it becomes about a group experience again. Barbie fans dressing up is, you know, Barbie or kid or whoever.

Like, it really, that's what cinema can be again, is really dressing up. And sure, we could all work on our Oppenheimer, you know, look. Right. Wow. Our opi look. We all need to find cool hats. and very short ties I've also noticed

that all the old films to get it right you need a tie that's about that long Yeah I did want to What's funny is I saw that you were

the DP on the inspectors And I went I went to college With Brett Green Oh great Wait what college was this Arizona State Arizona State

What is it like Like when you knew Brett did And he knew you Do you guys have a sense At the time because college you both are probably what in film headed towards that direction or what is the world like then from what i remember like i could also be confused like so we weren't like super great friends but from i mean ASU's a huge enormous school so it's oftentimes i will get people mixed up with who i've met here and there but i'm pretty sure we went to college together i should text him or something but um no i think the film school i think he got a degree in like public relations or something but the film school was brand new. This was 2008.

It had started in 06. So we very much felt like latchkey kids. And to see anyone succeed like, you know, he did is not shocking, but is like, oh, fuck, he made it. You know, like, yeah, it doesn't feel out of the realm of possibility, but it is exciting. It is exciting. Just again, when I was on the shy or just a bit ago. I showed up to, it was a courtroom set.

And there was a man actress that I went to introduce myself to. And she said her name, Charmin. And I said, Charmin from the inspectors. And then she kind of doubled took me and we both went, ah! Because a decade later, how many years later, it is exciting because our trajectories are a, could be so long term and also just maneuvering. And there's very little things that are direct.

in this industry. And so when you do rerun and run into someone or Jean Eli, he had a role in Insecure. And then I just saw him on a trailer. And I shot with him on one of his first produced short films. And so we catch up with each other sometimes. And I just saw him on a trailer for another TV series. You're just like, yeah.

It's really exciting. That's really exciting. We pick our film schools. We have no idea. But inevitably, yes, we're picking the school, but we're also sort of picking the mindset and the people that we interact with and sort of, you know, measure ourselves as we measure each other as, you know, we're all growing and figuring it out. But film school is like this beautiful, I went to AFI and I would call it less beautiful, more like running a gauntlet. But the longer I have survived it and I'm outside of the event, the two-year event. It's this fascinating experience where you have a group of focus

like more than individuals in an intense environment, and you just can't help but either you just can't help but reacting to that and either form the bond or you sort of form a friction. But you definitely get an opinion of each other and an ability to work with each other out of the need because you're crewing a film, you know, or just because out of respect or curiosity and that process to me of film school and whether it's undergrad or graduate, it's formidable and it's created some of the relationships that have really, if I look back, made those step-up connections that I needed, whether they were lateral, whether it was vertical, like those, a lot of those come from film school connections. Yeah. Well, and AFI especially like a lot of people,

you know, go to SC or perhaps UCLA, NYU. you know, plenty of, um, folks from there, uh, I, for whatever reason, Maria Ruska pops into my head. She like taught there, but she's my age, you know, uh, but, um, some of the best EPs in the world all seem to have gone to AFI. So you're, I know you're in great company, but tell me, and I've asked them all this. So it's kind of maybe a boring question for anyone who listens to the podcast a lot. But, uh, you know, you kind of went into it there about it being a gauntlet. But what are some of the things that you think you learn specifically from AFI that may be a traditional university or film school maybe wouldn't have given you?

Sure. You know, I think what makes the- Ethica as well, right? I went to I did it to college to do, which was brilliant for me. It was the most positive, mind-opening, creative experience, supportive. It was really heavy in leadership with women, the professors and a lot of my filmmaking crew that I ended up with. So I just sort of came into film making thinking was 50-50 at least. It's not more balance and equity, that sort, but that I had a culture shot into Welcome to Hollywood reality. But so I think what makes the film school, whether it's in my case, Ittica or AFI, where I think of like the Rhode Island School of Arts or Savannah, all of them is who's teaching at that time

when you're there? That really makes the culture, but it also makes the craft. of the individual. And it sort of, it culture-wise, determines if this is going to be a group that bonds together or has a similar language. I think what makes AFI so powerful is that we come out of it as filmmakers over the course of a decade of years with the same language. We are fluent in a type of visual storytelling and a type of approach to lighting and really pondering where the lens goes and what kind of lens it is.

And I see a difference. It's interesting to me that many of the cinematographers that are thriving right now, I'm always curious to see, like, did you come from the Polish film school, European cinema, did you come from Asian cinema, did you come from Hollywood Western, you know, Western filmmaking style? It's different approaches for sure. And that kind of getting into the details of just coverage style. Do you hold a frame longer? Do you punch in for coverage?

Do you just let it play out? these are approaches to filmmaking that are defined by the people inside the kind of filmmaking schools or if you're looking more of like a craft or trades who did you learn from the roger deacon's approach it's way different from the maddie and boutique approach where and how did they how did that become their kind of mode into it so the more and more I am working I would say when I first came it was like, I have to go to the best school. I went to Ithaca because it could get me to the coast, whether it was east or west,

and because I thought they had the best film environment for me to drop into. And I went to AFI because I thought it was the best cinematography. But as I've been in the industry longer, it's really about when I look back, who were the people that were there. Stephen is setting still the head of the AFI program. And so it's those connections

that Bill Dill, he's the renowned instructor there and some of the other film schools. He's been named dropped a couple times on this. He's been named dropped because he is one of those multi-year filmmakers, ASC cinematographers who have instilled in us a language. And so as I'm moving through my career and AFI, Sandra Wolde, Paoli Hidobro,

they've given me opportunities to step onto their sets. I mean, I speak the same language. And it's, it's, it's, so that, that to me is what a type of film school does, but it's really about the filmmakers who are teaching the film programs, um, create for an entire culture or generation. F.S. You know, Florida State, they have their own thing going and they have got this cool group that can also, you know, intermix and make films that we weren't expecting. They have a good culture.

Yeah, it's, it's, you know, the, the, the, for younger, people or current students, I think the, or anyone kind of interested in getting into film, the film school question always comes up. And exactly as you said, I always say, like, it's less about what you learn there and more about who you meet because you meet really cool people like Brett Green. But, um, it is so cool. I love me. I love keeping up and we've run into each other just a few times as well. Very handsome. Um, but, uh, real easy to shoot. Uh, great photographer, too, by the way. um great headshots and stuff but uh point being you know it feels when i went to film school

and i'm sure this was the case with you like the proliferation of of uh information was not around the internet was not a source for i mean there were like the cinematography dot com forum i think existed maybe you know you had dbx user later in life but like in general it was um you know DVD special features and American Cinematographer magazine, that was it. And now you can learn strictly from the internet the hard details and the interpersonal stuff. You kind of, film school kind of, unless you're going to work immediately on a set, you kind of do need that. Yeah. You know, there's such a distance from the beginner to, dare I say, like, ooh, the master, right?

But it's also sort of exponential as well. You can make sort of a sense of rapid growth, big stages at the beginning, because it's just like more general. But as you get deeper and deeper into a craft, it really becomes about the specificity of your choices. For example, I'm on a non-scripted docu series right now, second unit DEP. And I at once went and shot on The Shy. 80% the same lighting equipment. So that's not the difference, but it was the difference in the diffusion we used.

It was the difference in the focal lengths we had an option to. On the shy, we had the options of the 30 mil because of the Tico visions. We could go 35, 30 or 28. Here we have a different set of lenses or we just have a zoo lens. So it actually gets into the nitty-gritty, so you might feel like my strides of advancement or whatever are not as large, but it really comes down to the detail. And that's how, as you're building what's your film school group and you're staying in touch

and people are finding what really moves them, hopefully you also fine-tuning, not just what moves yourself, but also like, how do you use the tools? It's always fun to debate at Airy versus Sony versus Red, right? But you can do magical things with all of them, but it really gets into the detail of what Can you, like, why did you shoot nighttime exteriors with an ND6? Why did you go down to base 800 versus 3,200? Like, those little decisions are actually what start to define a person's style of communication, I guess, visually. Sure.

Yeah, and it's also, I think you brought up a great point that, like, once you, once, it was, I don't know, it was great to hear that. articulated because it does feel like for the strides at the beginning are so you know it's the difference between standard deaf and 4k but your career you know and then and then once you hit 4k you're like where do I go from nowhere this is it all right well guess I got to focus on hey really a difference yeah make it I do fall into decision fatigue I'm the classic like um I was all HMIs all the time but before that I didn't like HMI I was like they're not perfect enough and then the analytics came in and then aperture came in and I was just on set and we were using a different brand and it'll come to me but like

so I can suffer from decision fatigue like which one's the best the best one and I remember from years back watching a series of camera tests it was like which one's the best excuse me lighting test and they brought out a lot of a lot of Felix is the other brand Felix the Q10 or the X or the aperture X tens or the right all of them of the Nanlux 2.5 Like all of them. It's wild. I like cream source as well. Cream source.

Yeah. But it was so fascinating to me to watch this lighting test because they had Cineo when they were doing plasma. They had the S6, the Sky Panel, S60s classic. They had several of them. And I can't even remember the one that was deemed technically correct because we had all the graphs. The individuals who tested, they were just perfectly scientific and repetitive in their

process that you could actually measure the best. best. And it was not the S-60. The S-60 had magenta and even a little bit of green in it. But somehow when you just looked at it, it just felt great. And that really started to free me up. Because I saw, with my own eyes, which light was the best. And it was not a light I would choose to use. Well, yeah. So I forget what put me there. But yeah, I think that's, I think it's fascinating. Well, it doesn't matter. We'll put you there because I'm happy to talk about gear stuff. But, um, I had to learn later in life to care about a story more. I was definitely one of the people fascinated with just like the mechanics and stuff. I learned very late in life that I probably should have gotten into props, but I spent 20 years as a cinematographer. Well, not 20 years as a cinematographer, but you know, like studying it. So I'm stuck here.

What about props? That's so curious. Tell me that's like, what? Left field, why frauds? Because I want to make, I like making things, like with my hand. I just like, yeah, well, like carpentry, I think would have been cool for me too. Not necessarily film carpentry, but just like making stuff. But also I remember, this is actually going to be a good question for you.

Like, do you remember the film that got you into film? Because for me, it was like Star Wars and the Matrix. But then I realized I was far more interested. The Matrix maybe isn't the greatest example for this. But like Star Wars specifically, I just remember Stormtroopers being. really cool and lightsaber's being really cool. And then somehow that got me into cinematography and I realized later, no, I was more interested in the object and not the filming of it. Like I wanted a lightsaber. I didn't want to record it. Wanted the lightsaber.

Yeah. And so, you know, I built them myself. We all are like, oh, I really want to live that dream. But the making of the dream, the thing, you know, they say don't meet your star, right? It's totally different. Like you said, you turned out like it was the lightsaber at that really got me. I probably just needed you just needed one of those for your birthday. Like life the business. But a real one, not a plastic one. A real, that's true. I needed a machine one.

I feel like the hysteritudes got us pretty close to that, but still it's not it isn't. It isn't. We know it's not. But a redefining film in my childhood, childhood. I grew up in a world that I didn't watch movies, so what is

childhood? I did go to the cinema sometimes, but the three, when I went to the movie theater, that I was like, whoa, what is this? I think we even went to like the big movie theater outside of town. Like, it was Crouching Tiger, Gid, and Dragon. That's a good one. It was Amelie, which they're bringing back out in theaters. Thank you.

Which tells you how much the studios are scrambling. I know, right. I'm happy with it, though, because I didn't get to see that in theaters. I always thought on DVD. Okay, so Amelie. and Notting Hill the modern perfect romantic comedy ever

and those are the three films where we're like what is this thing it's so perfect yet it's fake but I want to be all of them mostly female leads you could argue he'd grant

who's lead but we know Julia Roberts owned her generation of film of film needs so so female driven big cinema films and I'll say big cinema

because I discovered that it really is scale there is something that when I'm this little person compared to the screen in front of me scale gets me it's what makes me feel my humaneness and my kind of fragility and it makes that experience bigger than my life

and so those are the three films that I was what is happening outside of my small town I have to figure this out well that was something I wanted to ask because I also grew up, well, I was born in San Jose, which is a very large city. But then I moved to San Alina, which is a town of 5,000 people in northern California. And I think that that escapism, that scale that you're talking about really was something I was actively searching for, maybe because I had a taste of the big thing and then moved to the tiny thing and just was like stir crazy. but how for you was like the small townness

an effect of you wanting to get out? Were you comfortable in the small town or did you have that urge to like kind of explode a little bit? I think it's complex and multi-layered and what I know now, I have a different perspective of it. I still respected deeply. But when I was growing up in Titia, Ohio,

outside of Dayton, where they call it a bedroom community, most people commuted to work. The kids went to the local public school. We played basketball or softball. or track, and then in the summer we also played basketball, softball, or track. I loved it. I thought it was great. I had my bicycle.

I would ride my bike to the barn where we had a horse. I would ride the horse. I had my dogs. The kids in my block, we would play together. Like, I loved it. I'm not sure if it was those three films or if there's just something ticking in the back of my head or who I ultimately am as a person now. there was probably a curiosity for like the wonder that I only know this world experience.

Like I only know what is quote, quote, normal to me. But there was like 100 and some or 200 countries out there. What is normal to them? And who was what is then? I had this desire to like understand myself by experiencing the norms of many other things. Yeah. And how do you do that when you're, you know, 16 and your biggest concept is, so my town had one exit. When I did come to L.A., I thought

I had arrived and it was still like 16 more exit. I was like, how is this possible? I don't understand. L.A. is over the hill and on this side of the hill and to be out. It was so bizarre. So I think you just start picking at it and picking at it and picking at it. And the films were one of the ways. That got me to Ithaca College, which I thought could get me to L.A. which got me to around the world. I've been in so many countries now, and I've put myself in incredible scenarios that never would have happened.

So I think it is something inside that was just sort of this curiosity that didn't have a language or voice, but had enough just kind of tapping, tapping, tapping, that I just kind of kept going for it. And I'm learning even more today, that internal voice. Just, I was seen very recently I noticed on set,

I hear it. And it's the gut. It's the intuition. It was like, I feel like it needs to be here. And I think it's a push it. I can't really explain why. And I have about three seconds until my rational break takes over. And it's like, whoa, we have 15 minutes. We can't do that. We should probably just land it. Be safe. And if I can just like intercept that three second moment, go with that little voice. I'm learning. That's where I lose control. because that's what you're saying maybe you thought like you were too technical side heavy because we are tasked knowing we have to know but we can then because we are hired for our knowing

and our knowledge to execute but this you know all the decisions we can sort of plant ourselves in that space and forget that in fact at a moment very briefly

can't lose control and you know sink the boat but we have to let go of what we know and just like oh my God I can figure it out. I know I can figure it out in 15 minutes. I'm going to have to put this on a T-shirt

because I said it a bazillion times now on this fucking podcast, but I'll say it again. Emotionally correct seems to supersede technically correct almost every time. Every time. Even Hoyt said that in your last dinner. Yeah. It's like it wasn't perfect, but it felt so right.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a, I think, think it's hard too to forget that like you know when you're watching a movie my my old producing director uh used to say that filmmaking is just making someone feel the emotion you want them to feel when they when you want them to feel it and uh yeah when you're on the receiving end of that and you don't know anything about the the process you know you're you're feeling it and then when you when you have to make it now like you said you have to be very technical and and execute in a certain

way. And it's easy to forget the feeling part, the receiving, you know, what it's like to be on the receiving end and not know how the, you know, magic is made or whatever. But it does kind of bring me to a question I did want to ask of you because I know you taught like a class on this. But like what are some of the kind of most common mistakes you see with camera operators that, you know, if they would fix these things would maybe bring them to the next level, so to speak. Sure. And right before that, I want to say with what you just commented on remembering the motionality, I respect so much and I look for that in directors because as cinematographers, I am juggling the logistics and the time management. I'm trying to remind myself to also be very present in the emotional experience that we want the audience. But I really come to respect when the directors are treating. keeping us at that north and at that focus and intention of yes, yes, yes, but this feeling. So definitely that's one of the biggest collaborative pluses with certain types of directors,

is they bring us to that space before we roll, before we commit to rolling. Operating is interesting. I did not come up in training for, I wasn't a first, a second, and the first and learn from the operator and then get a shot at that's a cute puppy it's like she's going to join our interview that's fine this is post-COVID the family life's allowed to arrive

right um I didn't learn in a sort of craft way for example I just um oh not Jeff Haley I just ran into a few days ago a legendary um up steady cam up And it all come to me.

I have like name panic all the time. Me too. And I was like, I was like the whip pan. I was like, you need to teach me the whip pan. I'm still struggling. There's an approach to it that I haven't learned through others. So if you can come up through working with the operators as their assistance and then getting that shot on C camera or B camera,

I did come up in reality when the last writer's strike happened and then the flight started happening. And that was a blessing as a female filmmaker, I believe, because in reality, there's quantity of cameras. And when I just came out of AFI, I had a lot of student loans going back to do I go to film school or not. And now I'm living in Los Angeles, all the things about affording one's life. So reality took over in L.A. and I aced for a minute. And then I started operating on, like, the wide camera. And it's just through trial and error, like Sherry tilt down, Sherry steady up. It's just all public over O'Waki, so you want to be really good because everybody can see and hear it.

And you know that your images are being projected to all the producers. I think that when it comes to operating, I want to set my endpoint first as much as I can and inscripted, where we land thee. and now let's build ourselves to the beginning and that will kind of tell me is this going to be a dolly shot is we need to incorporate some booms so how are we going to get there is a steady cam if I know where I'm ending in my frame

then I'll immediately start pegging the corners of my frame like your frame on the top left where I'm viewing it is the auto frame I know if I had to reframe that I could just lock that left frame in the top left corner and then I would fit you in it immediately

And I could double check myself. The right frame is a little difficult because I don't know where you bookshel things. But I could just... It ends right there. Right there? Okay, great. So just, and I could see on the edges. If you have the ability in your EVF to scale in your actual frame so you can see what's outside of it,

then I would know, don't pan right anymore. I'm going to go off your set. And you don't want to do that. So when I set my end frame, I start notating my kind of visual. anchor points. And then I work my way backwards. The other thing is if I'm an operator on scripted, it serves the DP that once we have set our frame, and in different levels of filmmaking or styles, the AOP can pitch the lens in the frame where in different shows, maybe the DP sets it with the director. When you can, when I can, I ask for the viewfinder stick. We all have our

apps. We all have our Artemis and our other ones. But as sensor sizes are changing and lenses are being built out of your garage, they're not perfectly lining up. But somehow the iPhone or the iPad sensor, it's very close. And sometimes it seems to be right on. But in other cases, it's not. So if you're setting your frame with a digital app, as soon as you can, get that lens up and get it on the camera and verify the frame. And then let everyone. see it. Because once everyone sees the frame, everyone can go on their missions. So

here's my frame. Now let's go to one and set it. And then as the operator, now my job on a scripted show is while everything else is happening, A, get your stand-ins. Don't go into a film without stand-ins, no matter how low-budget it is.

Because your stand-ins have watched the blocking, they know where to go, and you can work with them. I sometimes call second team my first team. That's who I'm working with. Right. And so you start building that frame as an operator for the show, for the DP, for the director. You are through sensitive language requesting things can move or shift or do we work foreground,

do we need to be a little load. You are building that shot so that when the first team is ready, they come in, we do one rehearsal, and then we go. So your job is like orchestrating everything to that moment of perfection, really. right before we all need to be together at InSync. When I'm in reality, operating, it's as much about watching the frame in my eyepiece and then watching what's going on on the outside of my eyepiece. And it's also about knowing who I'm shooting with.

So on this show, we are two camera teams. So I'm shooting with me and one other operator. And occasionally we'll join up for four ops, depending on the number of people. and I've worked with this operator before Dan Cabinol and I know he shoots it you know Dan Capinal great a heart of him yeah he's a brilliant op he's an amazing photographer

and cinematographer his eye is undeniable and one of the beautiful lessons up and the gifts for me to working with Dan is that he his incredible eye and dare I not get jealous but just be thankful so now I know we have two people on set who are able to just compose and deliver something emotionally present.

And he puts everything he has into this frame. And so if I'm a DP or an operator, I only want to work with other operators and crafts individuals who put everything they have into the frame and really make it important. I think sometimes in our industry, we can become jaded, just exhausted, just not feeling well. And if you can just muster up everything you have to say

that this thing I'm doing right now in this frame is so important, everyone starts believing it and bringing all of this. So knowing who you're operating with, in reality, knowing also what's going on around you, very, very technically, if I'm on the left, that means that I'm blind to my right side. So I need the camera operator on my blind spot to sort of communicate back to me what they have or if they're going to shift or what line. Like, I can't see them.

And, but knowing if I'm the one who can see the other camera, I just need to kind of feed off of them. They don't know where I'm at. So if they're shifting, I'll shift. So it's sort of a, you have to very conscious of all the lenses in play, the operators where they're at. And then also what I'm filming, but what is also happening. And another big part of that, whether it's scripted or not scripted, is to wear

columns or where the earpiece be that allows you to hear the actors. even sometimes if I'm three feet from them, I will still put the earpiece in because there's something that makes that their language just right inside my head that focuses me in even more more acutely. Yeah, it's funny. The two non-DP jobs that I think make you a better DP are editing and acting. And I've never actually said the acting part, but. Well, just because like you said, like having them in your, it's especially for reality, I imagine, reacting to things naturally and in a way that tells the story visually involves some amount of actor brain, you know, knowing where to place yourself in a scene as a third party, whether that be as part of the scene or, you know, a neutral observer or whatever, that all takes kind of actor brain. but editing specifically just to know what kind of shots you need and don't need. And I think, too, for me, there's so much prep.

But for me, like, we're making a movie. It happens during the re-through, the actor re-through. Or it happens in reality when I get on set with the cast. And I just, before we roll, just start watching and listening and observing them. I heard a D.P. say, excuse me, a little while back, like, the location will tell you how to shoot it. So I'll make all my plans, all the location scouting, all my light paths, sun paths, or whatever. And ultimately, I just need to, like, sit back. The location will tell me how to film it.

Now I know if I can, you know, work with that. And I find that true with actors and with personalities, non-scripted personalities. They will tell me, like, they make it come alive. And so they will tell me through just the performance or just by the charisma that, that unique charisma that that individual has. So in that sense, I can be find a type of instruction, right, or a type of direction on the acting for sure. Yeah. And I imagine, too, like having a background in reality makes covering comedy easier. Because like with the, with the drugstore June, that's a lot of comedians who probably, I imagine went off script from.

time to time. But, yeah, talk to me about kind of like how you had to shift your approach to shoot something like that. Was that kind of like more than one camera? Were you just kind of hosing it down just in case they did go off? Or were they all pretty on note? I think similar to reality in comedy, which I learned, I don't have a lot of comedy in my past, is don't miss it.

Don't miss the moment. Because that is comedy. It's a moment of realness in a laughable package. Don't miss it. You can ask people to redo it, of course, and the best can redo it. They'll find a slightly different thread, but they will. So, Drugstore was mostly single camera just because of the budget, also because of our desire to shoot in sort of classic cinema,

close and anamorphically wide way. They don't just want to. We were shooting with the Panavision E-Series Enormorphics on the LF. Really? It looked really good. Yeah, they were. They were so great.

When I'm holding those E-series, I'm like, man, the filmmakers who have also held these lenses. What? Right. Insane. And we were so lucky with the dates because I think we got the lenses like two days before shooting for a prep

because they came in from a shoot. And they were like, Panavision was like watching the clock when we were at, like, okay, we need them now. Don't have any overshoot or, you know, makeup shots or whatever, because you all got, you know, going to get the lenses again. But, um, sorry, I interrupted you. Yeah. That's great.

I love it. I love it. We were mostly single camera. I think we had four B camera days scheduled that we could afford. One of them was a steady cam and some of them went. It was just a lot of cast or a bit, big, big day. We kind of needed to, like, for example, the interrogation scene, two cameras. please let us not have to repeat that whole dialogue 10 times more than we have to.

But with that, it was, we didn't cross-shoot to get everything, but I think the actors knew when they were on, but it was like we allowed time, where Nick Newsom, the director allowed time, and he and Esther were both the writers. We had some other comedy comedians and producers at the monitor, and it was fun for me to witness it because you have these mega comedians on screen, and then you have the brains, you know, the little, like, fidgeting brains in the background. Everyone's pitching. Everyone's pitching at the monitors in very respectful ways. And it's sort of like, what wins wins. And then they'll pitch it to set. And then the actors

like, oh, that's cool. Let's run with it. So we did allow time in our coverage to do alternates, but the actual setup was composed and purposeful. And then when we, you know, turn around, then that became more of the pitching session. I would say 80% of the film, 90% was on script with some of those moments when you had some, how do you call it, like back and forth pitching with multiple comedians, some playroom there.

But it was pretty much scripted, which Esther is the comedian. And it was really pulled from some of her stand-up. So she being the persona that she is playing, I think it kind of was right on point from the beginning, for me, whenever the script landed already. Yeah, something that I find fascinating about. I produce a quick ad.

I produce a stand-up show called High Note. And we had a different show that went for like five years or, yeah, six years. And then this one just started last year. So I've met a lot of comedians. And something that I find fascinating about them is it is not a collaborative medium, obviously. these are all coming from them but they all in the phase where you're like standing out in the back having a smoke or whatever just the riffing is fascinating to watch because they'll all tell basically the same joke 14 times in a row but they just keep one-uping each other and like getting excited when someone says something funnier and it's like it's like watching a writing something happened but they're all telling the exact they just changed the joke and it taught me a lot about how to be normal in social social situations because you just do that, but, but, um, right. Bill, build, build. Yeah, but it's just,

it's, it's, it's, it's really interesting to watch them like, it's, it's improv, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's just a strange, I imagine it was like that behind the, yeah, it's traced me because in order to do that, you have to give up a part of you, so, to let go. But then at the same time, you gain so much bad by risking it not being you or about you but somehow receiving someone else's and then murderging it and it becomes about the thing in between all the comedians, the punchline. And even though all the comedians are there, it's really fascinating. And going back to something you just said, you mentioned you produced that series. I think producing something and directing something has made me just a just more, a better

cinematographer, but just a more aware cinematographer. Putting yourself in other people's shoes just allows me to understand more like, oh, I know when I rap, this person's going to be up for two or three hours. Or, oh, I understand when they're asking about this, there's an attention behind or a need behind. Some of the most creative curiosity in terms of my brain and my experience are line producers. Like, what do you do with money and how you move it and how you see dollars and translate it to the thing I'm going to step into in six weeks?

Like, that to me also is a fascinating balance between, you know, hard facts and logistics, but completely creative in a way. So when we're talking about like, we need this, we don't need this, what does it cost us? Do we really, what about this? When that effect the production design, we could get another location, we could have another day, do we need another camera. All of these conversations I find once I step into other roles, I go, oh, wow. okay, I know how to better serve you, just as I'm hoping my operator really knows how to support and serve me in ways. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and also, I'm sure you, I guess like you just said, but you can more readily argue for things you know you need now versus stuff.

Like, that's going to be a tough-ass line producer, first AD, whoever isn't going to say yes. But I know I can argue this point because I've done that job and I know, you know, you know. You know, what angle is you doing? I know that I know that it might cost something on some other world. And so it's about meeting like, I really need, we need a tech notice day. Okay, well, we could either lose the car day, lose that. We could lose a second camera day or production design is not going to get as much money. And so it just becomes me understanding this is such a larger ecosystem than just by gear in my department.

The things I need absolutely affect what other departments also need. And it doesn't become about, like, just me, me, me kind of thing. Interesting also, like, when the line producers or the production supervisors, producing supervisors start showing up at the end of the day, or like when you're getting close to meal penalty or rap, and you think, oh, man, they only show up. But also knowing that in their minds they're deciding and trying to get all the facts to decide.

hide, 15 minutes of overtime today, going to be valuable for the show and not having it later. So just knowing that I'm respecting this ecosystem of decision making, that to me is like, it's a wonder that we make anything. There are so many decisions being lead that affect everything and everyone. Yeah. Talk to me about the lighting for a drugstore, because it's a lot of the lighting for a drugstore, because it's very kind of natural looking but also incredibly like I wouldn't say stylized but it does have that sort of modern panache you know that you want to see in any movie but it's not too dramatic and then you've got you know like sometimes there's some hard light in there that doesn't draw attention to itself you know very easy when you're mixing soft and hard to just be like look it's the sun or you know whatever the sun is here yeah yeah um

But yeah, so what was it kind of like your approach? Did you have any references or were you just kind of using your own kind of intuition on that? Or what was your approach there? Yeah, I worked with our Gaffer and key grip. Our key grip was Mark Beckerman and our Gaffer's Armando Bastario. So I've worked with both of them before. And so that helps, step one. I know who I'm working with.

And they're both very, very good at what they do. And so like a DP wants their operator to really know how to. autonomously support, but move the movie forward in a craftful way. Mark and Armando can do that as well. And we used lighting not out of the ordinary. For our indie film, we ran with Airy S-60s. We might have had a couple S-30s on. We did the Astera Titan 2 package, as we all do now, of course, with the pool needles.

We did run with light mats, which I'm seeing them less and less. We did have our light mats on the show there. Is there anything replaced? So the tubes and the light mats, I think, are on every shoot it feels. Are you seeing them being replaced, not the tubes, but are you seeing the light mats being replaced by anything? Or is it just like they're going away? I just see them being replaced by more tubes. Oh, all right.

Fair enough. There's more tubes, one tube, two tubes. Yes. We're going back to the Kino life. For Kinos, exactly. They actually fit in Kino housing. So we carry Keno housing. for the Titan tubes.

Sometimes I've seen and learned from a cinematographer, Anka Malatinska, so I adopted it, thank you, Uncle. She'll tape the tubes to phone core and then put the diffusion over top and sort of have like, it point them in. So it's sort of like a really mini mobile booklight.

But so the gear... I was going to say, so she's... So the back of the tube obviously doesn't have any lights on it. So she's aiming the tube into the foam core and taping it So basically the back of it, or is there like a gap? A small angle. So like, you know, the two might be shooting across the foam.

Oh, that's really smart. And the other two shoot across the beadboard. So you're just getting bounce light off of that foam of the beadboard. And then you can pick. Do you want Hampshire? Do you want Hollywood Frost? Do you want quarter grid? And then you can make it a two-foot pizza box, a four-by-two.

And then you're just moving it around. around on battery power. I'm stealing that. Thank you, Anka. Steal it. I stole it for Anka Malatinska, incredible cinematographer working out of Hawaii right now. That's a dream. She's living that dream.

She's been an incredible mentor. And going full circle, I met Onka at AFI. And she has been a most abundant giving a slightly more experienced cinematographer to me growing up. So thank you for that. those choices as being a benevolent, abundant cinematographer, human in the world, for sure. So, you know, we had Titan tubes, S60s, we did the light mat thing. Our grid package was quarter grids,

frost, and working with natural daylight. A few times we brought in the M40s for that direct sunlight shooting through the windows like in June's bedroom. That was the one I was. That was that where she's sitting in the chair with the tacos. It's such a pretty shot. I showed up and I went, damn, that's prettier than I was expecting it to be. And that was a conversation.

We were like, is it too hard? Is it too obvious? Is it too bright? Go for it. And it was really close. It was really, really close. But that was a fun one because sometimes in indie filmmaking nowadays, because when I grew up, it was like 1.2s and M18s.

So for an indie film to pull the M40 and a generator for the day, that was great. but as we've moved to LEDs where we've moved to sort of all soft light and it's really tricky how do you create that type of sun without it just being a big directionless or you know it's probably hit shoulder but not her head

so they top lift it so you still have to shape all the light and then which window was it going to come in that one came kind of came in from I think over her left shoulder more raking we could have chosen a different window and it would have been more frontal. Again, it goes back to like those little micro decisions.

We could all get a Nanlux now, a 1.2 on set or a go-docs, you know, a Felix Q10. I think they all plug into the wall now. The fun thing is with LEDs now coming up to the HMI world, like you, we can bring back the sun. Basically, we can bring back the sun without a generator. But now it's like having the craft to make it feel and look like it. probably had straw on it as well, just to give it a little bit of sunshine daylight. And then the other thing that makes all of this work is we finished drugstore June at Photocim with the colorist Alistar. And that man is an artist. That is fun. When Nick makes

his film as his artistic talent and brings me on and then I bring what I bring to it and we're crafting the Panavision, but landing with Alistar at Photocim, his crafting of light light color skin color all of that palette that he brings into it I watched I watched in real time the actual process of an artist changing a film like putting their print on a film and then the other the other creators being like oh wow that's actually more of the film than the feel like it's that is when it's all working so we definitely had that epic epic like wildcard when we when we partnered with all the star yeah you know it's funny i was at the kodak awards last night and uh ended up hanging out with like a few people who run

photocem for most of the night uh really really cool folks over there and also photicam one of the like original film industry companies that are like still around you know so there's very few Like, I think photochem is the only company that can process 65. There might be more. Oh, is it true? Yeah. Sure. They were saying, like, be, like, I've been impressed by watching.

How they, like, continue to find ways, ways to serve the film. So serve the filmmaking, whether it's digital or whether it's chemical. It's phenomenal. They have found it. And their family owned, I believe. Oh, so you think. That's cool. Like, Italy.

Yeah, yeah. How do you make a drugstore look nice? Because you'd think it would like the top, all the top light, it's just neon or not neon, fluorescent tubes, the top in a tradition, you know, if you were to go to a location, all topy, kind of ugly. How did you make it look nice? Isn't that the fun question? Like if you see in your script, like office, corporate or drugstore or like doctor's office. She's like, oh, what's happening? Well, you pick and choose which lights you're going to turn on per the frame. Let's turn off those, those, those. We brought, Armando had a set of color temperature correct fluorescent tubes. They're like, Teno tubes. They were tightened tubes, but they were filmed tubes.

So we strategically placed out, replaced the tubes that we could. And the frames that the tubes in that frame that would be in the shot. So it's like that one in the background, far left, three grids over, flip those out. So we just took the time to do that. So turning lights on and off, skirting them, if they are not enshrined, but they are providing ambience, get them off the back wall, get them lots of this wall. We only want them in this aisle. So gripology in places like that is a huge thing.

Also just not letting them just be on. What are we going to? So dis them, bubble disk them in a sense of like, don't just lay. the diffusion straight across it make it kind of scoop a little bit to give it so curvature and make it a little bit larger source. So there's that. It's trying to build in contrast

is essentially what you're doing. And turning the lights off, diffusing them, and gripping them to make them not spill everywhere. And then also you're doing your adding contrast from the floor as well. A six by cider or a four by floppy cider.

Sometimes like if I'm sitting here, you might not know it, but maybe I put a four by floppy, you know, here and here. So I'm not just the fill light, the balance return off of this white wall. I'm also killing the balance return from the white ceiling. So it's just working once you get, again, once you get the frame set, you go to work. And that's where you're like, oh, I need to turn off in your frame, turn off the room in the background. I don't need to light there.

I'm going to light from this source over here, whether it's a natural window or an unnatural window. If it's natural, it's going to change. Is it direct light? Is it skylight? We diffused those back windows on the drugstore location. I'd have that some work again. It wasn't 250. I got 21 on this. You said he went 251. Yeah. You want to go down like the rabbit hole. Go into gripology and start like parsing out. 250, 251. Hymshaw Frost. Hollywood Fross has some Frost, Oklahoma. It's great. So that's,

that was, and then you put an E-series animorphic lens on. Then you just rock that. That's really also how you make it look great. Picking your lenses are so important. I truly, truly, so in love

with LF in anamorphic on drug, right? And I'm just like, there's no going back. Yeah. Sorry, Alexa 35. There's no going back. You know what's funny is everyone was really stoked on the 35, and then now that it's been in the hands of people, I've heard of people going like, yeah, it's fine. And going back to the LF. Like, it's, it doesn't seem to be hitting as hard as people. I think it was more of like a body type upgrade than an imaging upgrade, it seems. What I see the biggest difference, which I'm happy you said that because I just bought an LF at the risk of everybody going to Area 35. I think it has dual. It has. It has. It has.

dual ISO, which I will tell you in the world of camera image making right now is critical. Sure. Absolutely critical. I think the Venice pushed everyone. You're just constantly, the Venice pushed everyone there. And interestingly, in love, it's like

you can almost shoot it opposite, the high dual base for daytime, and if you can get away with it, with your lighting package, the low dual base during night, because that's where the shoulder and the heel, the ankle, the slide, you know, all those curves. that's where they actually show in their advantages. So Airy 35, Alexa 35, getting the dual base, and truly, as I've heard from Alistair, I haven't shot with it yet, but as we were in post-coloring drugstore June,

it was like you cannot overexpose the Alexa 35. I have seen that. It's impossible. So to me, that's a real like curiosity. I have a showrunner friend who is shooting a non-scripted series on the Alexa 35 right now. That's fun. The fact that minis of different types can start making their way into the non-scripted world. I know Sony because of all of their offerings, so it's really owned that world. The one we're on now, we're shooting the FX-9s with FX-3s, with an FX-6.

Can we bring any more FX-1s and sevens and tens in there? But Sony's really owning that for us because they're giving those options. But seeing the Alexa 35 start appearing, and hopefully now minis, if Alexa 35 becomes the thing, then maybe the minis become. I know Amir as I've shot on them quite a lot. I love the Ameri. You can't get better form factor than that. Yeah. And just all the, I love the, that they've built it out to be an operator.

Like, I don't understand. why cinema cameras have to be difficult. Like Canon has done a very good job with their cinema line of like making it so all the buttons can be remapped and like it's, you know, you've got built in XLRs and SDI and like everything you need for quote unquote documentary. It's like you still need it for traditional filmmaking. Why are we making like red? Oh, you need a thousand attachments for this to work.

It's like, why? Yeah, yeah. I was so excited for the Red Raptor, the VistaVision. And then the first Raptor they brought out, it sort of like had to. no XLRs or no internal NDs and you're like sort of okay I think the one they just landed now has both those but yeah it's it's in the XL does but the regular the yeah that one's better yeah it's way more expensive the Raptor X

is just global shutter which is cool but yeah that's that's important maybe not on the highest list of the macro view of cinematography but it's important Yeah, it is funny. You get a really small camera, and then you sort of have to make it really big, big to use. I operated for Nicholson, Sam Nicholson, ASC, last year, and we did the Venice with the tether. Rialto, right? Yeah, he had two or three cameras.

We were on Rialto's. The thing was still, we had a competition. It was still 28 pounds by the time we built it out. Okay. Yes. okay and now you're getting backwards

putting it on yeah I think I still ended up putting it on my shoulder or I operate with a little cinniback

and I was like it's a little synepag but but Sony's fun in the sense that they're

like the Rialto I was on the shy we had a shot the director was like can we shoot from under

the coffee table uh oh wow that is great can we re Alto this please yes no problem so Sony is

beautiful like that um but there's something about the simplicity form factor of ARA that I also appreciate. Yeah. I did want to talk, I know we're starting to get over time, but I did want to talk about Angel City for a second because that's a gorgeous looking little series. And I wanted to ask you about how you light and shoot, I suppose, an interview, because those are some of the best looking interview setups I've ever seen. Arlene Nelson was the director and DP of that and I stepped in midway

So that was a show because of their shootings They started shooting before they had a budget And then it went the whole season You can't film a whole season at that scale So there were multiple DPs But for me stepping in And I had previously spoken with Arlene on a show That it didn't work out

So this was our first chance to really collaborate and that's really fun to me as a DP to work with the director of DP. It's so fun. There's just a knowledge and a respect for building a visual space. Like you said, those interviews are beautiful. And I thought, like, for example, the choices they made, the Canon FD lenses they shot, or it. It's like a cousin or a sister to the obscenely expensive Canon glass.

the K-35s. The K-35s, but they're very, very similar. So just, again, going back to that specificity, I can imagine the conversation, I would like to shoot on the K-35s. If we shoot on the K-35s, we cannot have this, this, and this, okay, the Canon FDs.

And choosing to shoot on prime rinses, also taking a risk. I think the interviews we carried, just three primes, a 35, a 15, and 85, knowing you will, so by limiting that, that opened the resources for others.

When I came in, they were like shooting on lightbats, but shooting on bouncing, bouncing light mats. So then really the changes I made were instead of smaller light mats, I brought in the 4x4 light mat, I think that's called the 8. And we tested book lighting it, and ultimately, if I have to go direct, I really do like cloth diffusion. So I would shoot direct with the 4x light mat when we hit space through bleach muslin. Ruish.

Yeah. Damn, I didn't know it had that much punch. Yeah, but we're pretty close. If you can get your lighting closer, then it's actually the light is softer, closer. And if the farther you move the lighting back, it's actually harder. Right. So we could be softer, but with a thicker diffusion, we could be closer in a higher intensity, but with the thicker diffusion. And for me, I love the muslin, because. because it's cloth. So it doesn't make the sheen on the skin. It's just sort of like a little cloud that just like lands on. And we picked, what I really appreciate is we spent time choosing our frame.

The way that it was produced and scheduled, we had time. We would show up four hours before an interview. Wow. And then we would spend that time in the location. We would look towards the windows. Again, is the sunlight going to help or hurt us in that scenario? If we can frame in the windows, can we wrap it visually to make that our key?

Kind of like the backlight is the key, and we would pitch frames for an hour. And then, in case that allowed also variances in the day, did someone get stuck in traps? Was there an accident? Did we all ride together? We'll just calm. The other thing is when you can create an environment of being calm in space for discussion, And then we would pick our frame, and then we would like the frame. And we also rearranged the locations.

We wanted it to feel like someone just sat down, but where they would naturally sit down is against a wall. Is it okay if we move the couches out? Well, if they sat down at the dining table, their back is to us, does it look like they just pulled a chair out? We really, really picked up those details. And then you put an F-35, and we brought in the Flanders monitor. I also believe the image you're looking at needs to be as correct as, you know, technically correct. So when we're at the Flanders looking at the image, we know we're actually making decisions that affect the final look. And then we just built it.

Through every little decision, we built it. But book lighting, prime lenses, pretty fast, wide open, and really intentionally picking the frame and not overdoing the actual gear, maybe two or three lights for the interview. What you did experience, which I experienced on working with another director before, is setting the interview at a 35 and pushing the camera a little closer

to the person you're talking to, that may be what you also felt because many interviews you will put the camera farther back on an 85 or a 50, right? Kind of compresses. it. But just the people we were working with were media savvy. They've been in the limelight. So having a camera a little bit closer, totally okay. I think you feel that too a lot in that interview. Yeah. So I do a lot of corporate interview type stuff that I try to make look prettier than usually I show up with about 20 minutes to set up, if that. But you're 100% right. I have to put the main camera far back. on a seven i guess maxed at 72 and then luckily they don't freak out about the b cam being on the side at like a 35 yeah i can't see it but yeah i do have to do that i have to put the main

camera way back because anytime i've gotten close they're always like like they'll address the camera like no no no talk to the person interviewing you then then they yes and if you can shoot on a 35 or 24 visually too as the background rolls out it it expands right you just like You get to see the space they're in. And so now the space gets to be a part of the character's story building. And it's telling you about, like, again, with your frame, you've got your, maybe the rubies and bookshelves, but like I'm seeing parts of you in your environment where when you're forced to on that 80s. Gear cases open.

Yes, exactly. When you're forced to go longer, then you're forced to minimize literally the focal point of the background. and you don't get that, you don't allow that space to tell you about the person. And sometimes you don't, maybe it's an environment you don't want to feature, or it's kind of neutral or bland, so you don't need it to. But whenever possible, if I can allow the environment to be a character that the individual is in, to me, that's always just getting so much more of an experience. It allows the viewer to be more active in trying to figure out who the person is,

instead of just limiting them. And so literally the eyes don't move. They're just looking at one's way. So so many ways to just activate on different levels, the character person. Yeah, that was, I can't remember who I was talking to, but that was like a piece of advice for younger filmmakers. It's like, if you're going to make, you know, a no budget short, don't, if you're a, you know, 20-year-old dude,

don't shoot a movie about an 18-year-old girl in your apartment. No one will believe it. No, it's going to believe she lives there. So, productive is like, well, and it goes back, like, what is the behind-the-scenes photo on Oppenheimer where Hoyt and Hoyt in the camera are like this far for the actor when he's giving his speech? And you're like, oh, that's why it feels that way. They're literally right there. And I think sometimes as coming up filmmakers, we're just outside of that zone of intimacy or that zone of living.

the character's, you know, circle. And the more I watch, the great DPs were, the closer and inside that circle they are. And that's, I think that was part of what made those interviews on Angel City something special. Totally, yeah. Well, I got to let you go because I've kept you a little over, but it was fantastic talking to you. And I really enjoyed this. Thank you so much. And, yeah, drugstore June's awesome.

just opened, right? It just opened. They had the premiere. I have to figure out how to split my body because I was shooting while we premiered. And so I missed the dream filmmaker experience of premiering at the Garamans at Hollywood Boulevard. Oh, damn. It's in theaters this week in L.A. in New York. And then March 1st, it's available for distribution, rentals, and all that worldwide. Oh, wonderful. Well, I will definitely put that in show notes because it's a very funny movie and I enjoyed it very much. I will say as a viewer, it's a movie that gets funnier every time. And to me, that is the magic of it. Like I know the punchline, yet still it's even more funny than the first time. So that is a, that's a special thing about

drugstore that even as someone like who can enjoy cinema, I really love that film for that reason. Yeah. I will say the only thing that did make me like laugh that isn't in the script is the line where Bill Burr's talking to her and he's the doctor and he says like I would sew that mouth shut. You can see him being Bill Burr in that moment and try not to laugh. That was a totally one of those one

off scripted moments, right? We just said go. When you have Bill Burr, the room, go absolutely. And that's why you can hold it in a two shot because we had no coverage, but it's just so perfect and unforgettable. No one will ever be like oh, why won't we in a two shot profile 50-50? Nope.

They'll be like, sew that mouth shut. time. Oh, so good. Okay. Thank you for spending this time with me, inviting me to your podcast. Frayman Reference is an Al-Bot production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenne McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can go to www.com and follow the link to buy me a coffee. It's always appreciated, and as always, thanks for listening. I'm going to be able to be.