Frame & Reference Podcast - 137: "The Gentlemen" DP Callan Green, ACS NZCS

Episode Date: April 12, 2024

Today we've got the fantastic Callan Green on the program to talk about his work on the Netflix series "The Gentlemen" by Guy Ritchie. Callan is a New Zealand born, prolific award-winning Director of Photography with over 25 years of experience in the camera department. He specialises in Features and TV Series with an additional passion for automotive commercials and music promos. Prior to that Callan shot 2nd unit for the 3rd instalment of the world renowned "Band of Brothers" Series "MASTERS OF THE AIR" Producers: Tom Hanks & Stephen Spielberg. Directors (Cary Joji Fukunaga & Timothy Van Patten). MU-DP Adam Akapaw, due for release on Jan 26 2024. In mid 2021, Callan shot his debut feature film “THE ENFORCER” for Millennium Media, starring Antonio Bandares, Kate Bosworth, Mojean Aria, Alexis Ren and 2 Chainz. Directed by Richard Hughes. Back in 2019 Callan DP’d the UK based 2nd Unit for Universal Studios’ 9th instalment of “The Fast & Furious”. 2nd Unit Director JJ Perry. Main Unit Dp Steve Windon. Main Unit Director Justin Lin. He also dp'd various splinter units for “FAST 10” in 2022. Callan has also shot music videos for Ed Sheeran, George Michael, James Blunt, One Direction, Pale Waves, The Script, Just Banco, Lewis Capaldi, Ellie Goulding, JC Stewart and Sam Smith and many more. Enjoy! Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.frameandrefpod.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for everything F&R You can directly support Frame & Reference by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Buying Me a Coffee⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coast's leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠⁠Filmtools.com⁠⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello, and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Candy Macmillan, and you're listening to episode 137 with Callan Green, ACS, and ZCS, DP of the TV show The Gentleman. Enjoy. It is funny that like when you, when you start working, that's actually, let's turn this into a question. How do you balance like trying to continue to absorb stuff with how much work you're doing? Because you got a shit ton of like music videos and commercials on you too. Yeah, yeah. It's pretty tricky.

I mean, having a good and working as much as you do when you're doing TV drama, like you pretty much doing 40 now. our day straight all the time and you're pretty ruined by the weekend so that we sit down and we watch something you've been down again but to be honest i just kind of chill i just sort of absorbed by sort of osmosis when i can uh talking once that's generally pretty good too but yeah we uh it's kind of takes a back seat well at the moment anyway do you find that that um you know with how fast production is these days do you find that you need to keep up with what's i'm kind of taking more of the angle of like your commercials and stuff like that in music videos like do you find that you need to kind of keep up with what's trending or does that kind of just come in the brief

usually I need to do research to be honest to get a lot of that from Instagram just saying what like you know I'm sure the kid that knock of them 44 or something so I've still you know yeah a good bit of that I definitely keep an eye on like what technology is going on with lenses and stuff like that also different remote heads and ways of moving the camera But generally, just from each job, and the research I'll put into each job, you tend to learn quite a lot, definitely more than I would before, during a job anyway. Yeah. Did you ever end up buying those alumina primes? Oh, right.

No. Yeah, God, I was keen on that for a while. Man, I used to have so much cash, and then I sort of sold it all and bought a house, so I got a little bit on to it. Although it did me well for a while. But it was mainly when I was shooting in London, but then I started shooting car commercials overseas, and you can't really take kit with a, it was just sitting in a box, being expensive and hanging out, yeah, duh. It's fucking crazy how, like, what feels like five years ago, there was six lenses. And the past two years, there's like a hundred. Yeah, there's a million billion lenses.

They're coming out, like, almost every day. It's like, it's mad. I think I've realized TLS even made their own, like, set of lenses in TLS by a go. Maybe they've been around for a while, but I saw that yesterday. But, yeah, there's just so many options. And some of them are pretty cool, man. I mean, Greg Frazier tends to use quite a few of the prototypes of a lot of these lenses. And they look fucking awesome.

Yeah. I really like the, not a sponsor, but the Nisi primes. The which one, sorry? The Nisi Cinema Primes. they're like all right yeah yeah I think I saw them at CBP the other day like they're nuts say

just a little tiny little nano nanolinses yeah chuck it on a S3 pro or something like that and whip it around on FX3 and you're good to go yeah the I was talking to I saw him at

Senegere you know around the Paramount lot and they warn me because I have a C500 and they were saying I they might need or I guess Matt Duclos was saying that I should wait to like use them or buy them or whatever

because the reason they're so small it's because that PL mount sticks out really far. And if you have internal NDs that come down. Yeah, you can scratch. You get them a scratch, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's always a problem with it. You definitely want to check them on something

less expensive stuff, right? When I was looking up, I found your blog spot. First of all, somehow I'm still logged into blogs. spot. That's scary. Where the hell is that? It's on BlockSpot, dog. Your, uh, your anamorphic 5D website is still there. Oh my God. That is like so long ago. Yeah. Man. But do you, uh, I kind of wanted to talk about that because, uh, because that was 14 years ago. Yeah, a long time ago. I got well into that. I was I, I was I, I used to settle Lomas. Right. They'd chuck them on my 5D that I had PML, uh, PL mounted. And that was,

that'd come out with some awesome images. Yeah, there's unfortunately all the pictures are gone, but there was the link to that one website or the music video. All right. And it's shocking how good that still holds up. Yeah.

The 5D Mark 2, like when there's so much anxiety about what camera, you know, should I buy an FX3? Should I buy? And it's like, dude, you can get it used 5D and it'll still look good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was kind of like shooting on print film

or a reversal or something, right? But if you could get it right, it's awesome. Yeah. What was the what spurred you? It's just so interesting to me because like that whole blog, we don't have got to recount the whole thing. But like, um, seems, reading it now seems kind of quaint, but at the time was not, not an easy task to like PL mount a 5D and like rig it up and everything when today that's pretty standard. Yeah, it's pretty normal.

Yeah. Luckily there was this like kind of magician dude that lived in Melbourne. I was living in Sydney at the time. and he was into doing all that kind of stuff so I sent my 5D down to him and he ripped the guts out of it and stuck out of it and then I was able to put my lo-mos on it.

It was a lot of fun doing that. Yeah. What kind of made you want to do that at the time? I had a D-90, so I was just on five from day one. That's not good. I suppose I was in this kind of time of my career where I sort of soon after leaving film school, I wasn't really like smashing it, but I could definitely shoot. So I needed to have a kind of a bit of a niche.

And the 5D Mark 2 coming out really, really helped me actually. I was known as the 5D guy in Sydney for a while, I think, which is awesome. And it pissed off with a lot of people because you rock up with your own kit and you're a lot cheaper. And if you can do the job, then it's wicked, right? Just wanted to make it even better, really. just wanted a way of that being even more cinematic or more interesting or something another feather in your 5D bow you could say yeah what uh it's again it's just interesting to me because like the dichotomy i grew up around that i'm 33 so you know what i was when i was in college that came out my like freshman year and um growing up or like learning 16 millimeter getting digital tools you know like a five We were on a DBX 100, or my XL2. But trying to make things, as you said, cinematic when you didn't have film was difficult.

So I'm kind of wondering, like, at the time, what were the things that you think made a cinematic image as opposed to maybe something today that seems to do the trick? Or is it the same set of tools? It was pretty similar, but I suppose it was just cheaper and more available to me. So I'd say the fact that it was large format. It was, right? Yeah. Yeah. So therefore, you got a super shallow depth field.

Which at the time was not easy to do. Sensors. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I remember spending about $2,000 on some crappy monitor to be able to pull the focus, but it paid off. It's an eye there if you're going off the back of the camera. Um, yeah, I suppose it's just, just that and then be able to put on a bunch of lenses and, and the way it looked, it did kind of, if you got it right, look a bit, kind of pre-celled in the right like. I needed a bit of contrast, but also, uh, soft as well. It's, uh, did you end up selling the LOMOs?

Because those are very much back in fashion. Ah, mate. Yeah, let's not talk about the kit that I've sold. I used to, I had a full set of super speeds plus a 65 mill as well. And it's like, oh, dude, it makes me want to cry. But yeah, I did. I sold them to my mate. They've got pretty good cash for them to, you almost because I think I bought them

through about 20 grand. I sold them for 18,000 Aussie. Damn, so. Yeah, it was good. Getting me going. Get the doors open. That's a funny, like I asked, kind of, I suppose, a mentor of mine when I was getting started like, hey, should I, you know, I wanted to be a deep beat.

And I was like, should I buy lenses or camera? because everyone was saying buy lenses because it's like an investment and he was like do not listen to them buy a camera and i was like at your level are you going to rent and i was like that's good point yeah oh man no owning lenders wicked i really miss owning kind of like my babies but they're gone now i also ended at f65 i had the first sony f65 in sydney and that was that ended up being a really bad idea because just it was way too powerful so i had way too good for it was way too good for for how people knew how to use it. Like, we'd shoot something and send it into the post house

and then just treat it like Alexa Classic. And it would just come out like a German gun footage from the 40s. And they're going to have blamed a lot to the site. They just didn't tick the box with Saudi, right? It would, you know, and also there's a lot of data. Well, and then I saw on that blog that you switched to a red one after all was said and done. Was that easier?

No, I think that was because I could borrow my mate's one. Yeah, the first time I used to read one, we had to put an ice pack on it, and it kept shutting down. Yeah. Actually, what was the one after the red one? Was it the... There would have been whatever David Fincher made him make. It was the Mysterium, the DSMC-1 Mysterium, when it went to the box instead of the tube. Okay, yeah, cool, cool, cool.

Yeah, that one, yeah. Yeah, so I managed to Chuck the Lomas on that, shoot a music video on that. That was fun, and that worked well. Yeah. What, uh, you got a master's in, in cinematography? Yeah, yeah. I left New Zealand after being a second AC for probably five years,

because I got into the AFTRS, which is the National Film School in Sydney. And they only took four people here, which is kind of cool that I go, oh, wow. And then I even ended up on the news in New Zealand, kind of how cool it was. I was shooting in my first music video and I came along and interviewed be about getting into that sound school. It was great. Yeah, I went to that for two years. It was full-time course and then left with an MA.

Doesn't really matter having an MA other than when you try and get your visa for shooting in America. Sure. That's actually a better question than does film school matter now? Because I was thinking about it when you're talking about having a niche or whatever. I've interviewed a few DPs and directors. and directors. Actually, I interviewed, crap, what's his name?

The production designer for, he was a production designer Lord of the Rings, which I know you were a party. Yeah, I was the same guy, you know, that slap a letter on that second I say, yeah. Crap. Was this Dan, Dan,

no. He also depowered the dog. That makes me feel bad. I thought power of the dog. I thought he said he power of the dog. Oh, no, no, no, yeah, yeah, the movie, Power of the Dog. It's like, neighborhood store. But something that I was kind of talking to all these various people about was,

from your perspective, is it easier to be a DP in terms of getting jobs, you know, moving up the ranks or whatever in Australia and New Zealand than America? Or is it kind of just a smaller version of the same thing? That's a good question, bro, because after finishing film school, I worked for quite a while as a, you know, working on music videos and ads and slowly working my way up. I think if you don't crack it really hard straight away, a lot of people kind of remember you as the guy who left film school when it was slowly working his way out. And then it's quite difficult to actually really crack it and start doing the pig jobs,

of which there aren't many in Sydney or went back then. kind of maybe three or four DPs that were doing all the big jobs and everything else, kind of dropped down. After I left Sydney and moved to London is really when my career took off, because I think no one really knew me. I had a couple of car commercials, and then I managed to get a pretty good car commercial with the Bridgestone Pires straight away, and that took off, and that was amazing.

So it's a tricky one to answer. It depends, like, how bullsey and how cocky you are, I think. But I wasn't really too bullsy or cocky. I just bruised along and enjoyed life, maybe too much. Yeah, I certainly took that route. Yeah. After I left college, I was working at Red Bull, and I was like, I'm going to live forever. And then, yeah, good night.

Oh, man. I had a meeting with a financial advisor last week, and I, God, I wish I had that meeting when I was 20. But, hey, it's what it is, bro. Yeah. Does, uh, how did you? end up getting those first jobs? Was it just because you had worked on larger sets and it was kind of a word of mouth thing? Or did you pivot to your, you know, were you advertising yourself as a DP at this point? I was advertising myself as a DP. They don't have agents in Australia. They've

stepped booking services so you'd come up as available. They'd then looked at your website or your CB. It was, it's a word of mouth, I suppose, and just who you'd been working with. I was kind of do, I was pretty much shooting anything I could, commercials, music videos, did it, yeah, pretty much anything. It's, uh, I don't know, I'm not really sure about that one. Yeah. Well, I don't know, where's the, because the, a lot of DPs seem to have come up, and directors for that matter, seem to have come up in like the music video scene and become you know, you know, you're Spike Jones, your David Fincher, you know, whoever. Yeah. And, uh, Romaneck. And it doesn't feel like that world really exists. And, like,

There's probably a couple legit music videos that you could be like, I shot that and you should give me a job versus now it's usually like your friend's band. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think you definitely keep chipping away. And everything is always leads to something else as long as you don't cause a massive world of pain on set. And I'm a generally pretty nice guy, worked pretty hard and did my best. But I mean, everything through my career has always been like a little jump here and a little jump there. Like when I got into the film school, when I got Laura of the Rings, and then when I got

my first car commercial, like every, the first car commercial I had was a, it was supposed to be a documentary, and then it turned into a full-blown production Russian arms shooting in the desert outside of L.A. And I was like, and then would go to China and finish it off. It was for Chevrolet. I was like, oh, they're definitely going to kick me off. And they kept me on. So then you have a car commercial, and then suddenly you're allowed to do car commercials after that, you know what I mean? Right. For instance, I was in Sydney and Vaughan Arnell, who's an English director, famous music video director, came over and he chose me to do a one-direction video there. And that was pretty big, and I think the budget was about a million, and that just doesn't happen in Sydney.

So then I had done a really good music video. You just keep on and they'll come to you, keep smiling. Yeah, it is kind of annoying how you have to get the job to get a job. Oh, totally. Yeah. I want to shoot car commercials like what you haven't. And you're like, yes. Yeah, I know.

I like to. Yeah. Oh, man, I lost a commercial once because they were carrying a cooked chicken through the background of Sir Shah. and apparently they wanted to know if I was shot so they'd saw it and I said I haven't and so they picked me off and got someone else oh my god

and that smells fishy to me eh bro it must be something else that I like to think that was why yeah I mean to be honest it doesn't sound I've heard stupider that's ridiculous oh that's the kind of thing I do miss about cheating commercials I haven't shot a commercial for a while

it's just the the craziness of what goes on I used to just sit there and love it, to be honest. Yeah. Well, they're so educational, too. Like, you do so many that you get a lot of reps in. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, I learned a lot about backing cleaners for a little while. I've still had an electric back to cleaners.

Perfect. A lot of babies. They know about babies. Didn't help when I had a baby, but, yeah. You knew what products to give. I did, yeah. The, what was your experience like working on that, the Lord of the Rings trilogy, were you learning a ton on that or were you just kind of doing

your job keeping your head down? Because I assume at the time did anyone know that was going to blow up like it did or was it kind of just like put your head down at work? I was at the right time at the right place. I've been second-eight spending for only for about a year and a half and not on big stuff like, you know, 16-mill commercials, local content, like nothing even close to that. I think I'd worked on a TV series with William Shatner in it. But other than that, it was nothing going on. And I got a phone call one day and got asked if I would be interested in working on the main unit of Law of the Rings and we'd heard it about it coming.

Not everyone knew how big it was. We kind of had an idea that it was going to be pretty big because it was Peter Jackson and he had just finished the frightners and everyone thought that was big because it had Michael J. Fox in it. Right. But I really had no idea where I was walking into. I was 18 at the time. I remember turning up on day one.

to the camera prep room and I've never seen so many boxes in my life I had no idea what the hell was going on because it was enough kit for three units I think I had 48 mags in the truck and six different stocks Oh, right, it was insane and also I was supposed to be the truckloader

but Jack Fitzgerald got pulled into focus pulling the third camera so I was doing everything There's sheets, slates, loading. Yeah, it was not absolutely mental. I wish I'd had a bit more time to chill and kind of watch what was going on, but I just didn't, man. It was in Saturday plus for a long, long time.

Well, it's funny because I'm not a big Lord of the Rings fan. All right, this is going to piss somebody off. I've watched all whatever it is, 15 hours of the special, the documentary you know that comes on the extended DVDs oh yeah and I have this and a lot there

maybe I should yeah we should go back and check it but I have not seen the first two films you do what I have not seen the first two films I've seen the entire

making of documentary and I've seen the third one that's cool well I've seen I have a finishing best I just saw that one in theaters I hadn't seen the first two

and my friends were like hey let's go And I was like, okay. Oh, that's awesome. Did you notice that right at them, when they come back to Hobbeson, that Eliza looked really young again? No, I mean, it's been whatever, you know, like 20 years. But did they shoot that first?

Yeah, so, well, it was early on. We're in Hubbard, and we shot them at the beginning of the book, one and also their returns. So, yeah, we shot it all together for one and three, which I don't think it'd been done before. If it had, I didn't know about it. I can't. I remember that being a thing. Like, I remember them advertising like, oh, my God, they're shooting all three at once. Yeah, everyone thought everyone was completely mental. It was why I feel it. But it turned out. And now it's kind of a thing, right?

Yeah. Well, and what I was going to say initially before I showed my ass to however many people isn't this, uh, the, the, uh, it does feel like everyone who made that film, it, it seemed from the outside, like it was an indie. project that an entire nation worked on. Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right. I think there's about 2,000 casts and crew that worked off. And nothing like that had ever happened in New Zealand. And it kind of definitely was the, I'd say the second birth of the New Zealand film industry. It was epic. I remember at the at the red bat party and I went to the toilet and the guy next to me, I had never seen him.

I go, hey man, what are you doing with the show? And he was the guy that looked after the portal is. Yeah. It was the quilt. It was absolutely amazing to work on it. And I've got actually right next to me as a poster. It was from the original poster that had him out before they put all the text down the bottom and I managed to sneak one. Oh, that's awesome, actually.

Yeah, I got Elijah to sign it for me. I was kind of, yeah, I was kind of, oh, yeah, I did want it to sign it. But, I mean, he signed it, but he also write like a lovely message to me on that. Oh, that's nice. Yeah, it's cool. Oh, read it too. It says, Callan, it was a brilliant journey.

All of us are bonded for life. It's to the Bloody Ring. Elijah. That's rad. Yeah, man. He's a good day. Also, that artwork is sick. Oh, yeah.

Just as a poster, that's a great poster. Yeah, yeah. No, it's really cool. It's got a kink in it, though, because I don't follow that probably when I put it back in the car. Yeah, whatever. That's, you know, that's just part of the story. Yeah, totally.

See, from there, you kind of some time passes. I saw a ton of second unit work on your website. And honestly, I think second unit is more fun. Oh, it definitely can be. At least more interesting. On the big films, I would say it's definitely more sung, for sure. so I was working on a Mercedes commercial with Mark Foster and he was about to start doing Christopher Robin

and he asked me if I wanted to do splinter unit on that so that was my kind of for a and to back into filming TV so I did that and then then I got asked to do fast nine was Steve Wyndon and that that really was it that was the clincher so that was like five months work on a huge film I think we have three cameras full-time with four camera packages, and we talked over Edinburgh for about two months. It was late. Yeah.

And we definitely had a lot of fun on that. Yeah. So while Steve was in the studio shooting all the chat, we were blowing stuff up and smashing drones of into buildings. Yeah, some cool stuff. It is because it's, I feel like the thing that you don't recognize getting, you know, trying to pursue a career in cinematography. is that all the fun shit that you love as a kid that's second unit

everything that makes you want to do this is second unit oh absolutely oh man we have fun like when we threw the cars through the whiskey shop that was that was amazing we took quite a few goes

at doing that was an expensive shop look yeah what then oh go ahead oh then after that I went on to

master of the air to second unit So that was absolutely amazing because I'm super into history. And I'd actually just read the book. I would not read, I'd listen to it. I really read much good. I think it counts. I think it counts.

I'm not a pedant like that. So yeah, that was cool. And we did some awesome stuff on that. We killed a lot of young Americans. That show is incredible, by the way. Like, wicked a. Yeah. Congrats on that one.

What are the, was that, what were most of your shots for a second unit on Masters of Air? I was mainly in the Volian unit doing, like, when anything went wrong inside the B-17. So it was generally myself in the unit that I was working there. Liam Morrison was my director. He was the stunt coordinator. And we also did what's called a rotisserie where we're outside. and it would it could spin 360 and also come up on its on its uh on its end and not like some bare ground ride um that was really hard to shoot in but i don't operate well i didn't

operate i wasn't operating on those jobs so i've just standing the guys in and sit there and watch it yeah had you worked on a volume before uh i'd be a couple of times um i think a music video and a car commercial um but this was definitely the biggest volume of I'd ever seen. There were two volumes. One was kind of like a concave. Kind of long and concave so you could shoot the B-17 in profile. It didn't quite, the fuselage didn't quite fit. We either had to have the front on it or the or the tail on it, cockpit, or time. And then we had a

separate gimbal rig just for the cockpit. And that was like enclosed in volume. And that's where all the all the pilot piloting of the lines was shot yeah do you it's you know there's a lot of like just in general not even in film there's just so many new technologies that come out and everyone you know like fucking bitcoin everything crypto's going to change the world and then it does for 10 minutes and then everyone yeah yeah do you do you see the volume is something that like because it's a tricky thing like just in logistically it really is man and and and look there's probably there's going to be people that are those things you'll to this

that have done like heaps of it and I know it inside out but it really is a bit of a beat that you need to know how to tame and how to use it properly and what it works for and when it doesn't work um like uh I was I was in the body of stage yesterday shooting Games of London uh with the powers and I've since realized that tinting on windows and new cars is a freaking disaster if you had more than two people in a car so it's something I didn't pay enough attention to it at the beginning and i really wish i had because it was just too late by the time i got into it you just cannot make that look good because it's the it's that uh if i'm correct it's that like oh that oh that okay yeah yeah it's like probably five stops of light

you'd lose and when you're in a volume stage i don't generally use the volume to completely light what i'm doing i use it for effects and a bit of a bit of ambience but It is just impossible if you're shooting someone in the back of a car and you want a full shot or something looking in there. And what was, would it have just been too difficult to roll the windows down and put it in later? Look, that is a good question. Probably could have something that was bought up and I thought we're already down, walking down this road. I think we should just crack on. I mean it's, when I say it doesn't look great, it doesn't mean it looked horrible.

It's just pretty anal about making stings. look good you know yeah it's a lot easier when you have a car that isn't tinted I'll tell you well and initially when you said the tint I just immediately thought you meant like green magenta like there was like a film not like literal privacy tinting oh yeah yeah no privacy tending and it was like really great as well so it was a nightmare of putting lights through it was adding magenta to those lights and then uh god also they had to get in and out of the car as well so that was right yeah well and when the i remember when the Mandalorian first came out and everyone was like,

this is the future. And they were like, yeah, I remember a bunch of people going like, you don't have to light. And I was like, what are you talking about? They're like, it'll do it. I'm like, it's not bright enough. Have you been lit by a screen before? Yeah, yeah.

Look, I think it definitely matters on the, on the size of the screen and also it's a day or night. So what's going on in the volume. But I, I was adding quite a bit of light to these castings in the last few days. And I was really happy with that. out, but finding that happy medium of interactive light and still being able to see them enough to be able to, you know, pull their skin tone out and their eyes are lit and, yeah. On masters of the air, we were lighting inside the plane seeps and from outside and, yeah.

Do you? Not on the crane. Second? Oh, we had a sun on a crane, you know? Oh, sure, yeah. Yeah, 9K being the sun. All of that? You need to have a lot of interactive light.

of lighting really of your own too totally do were you doing any like um because i know and uh who was i talking to that was shooting on like one of the oh i think it was the dp from the main lorry but he was saying that they um they would just put like sometimes just a white square like a digital white square just somewhere in the volume to oh yeah some not it's brilliant yeah it's and lots to do that stuff you can write all create all kinds of shikes and you can make them strobe or you can make them pulse or so yesterday

I had a massive rectangle in between the top of the windscreen and the roof of the car and just added like the sun pulsing through the trees it just it's cool you definitely you need the you need the person

operating the volume to be as onto it as they can be really because if they're not they're going to take too long or they're going to do it wrong so it's kind of like being in a tracking vehicle you need everyone to be in, you know, Cohesia, right?

Yeah, that works. Yeah, kind of sound smart. I dog, I do it all day. I'm just trying, just trying. Does it, does it end up being not like with specific numbers, but does it end up being cheaper overall or is it more just a workflow consideration that it makes it easier in some way or besides just going out and driving around, you know?

Yeah, I'd say it's definitely, uh, wow. Is it? It depends on where you shoot. I mean, some volume stages are so expensive, but it's definitely better than on a low loader driving around and all kinds of weather conditions with the sun changing direction every time around and having to get traffic control and all of that. I mean, it's not fast. This is the thing that people need to know. They think, oh, we're in the volume state. It's all good. Just rock out, turn it on. You need a prep day. You need to go through everything. You need to sort of. you're lighting. You need a great board operator and an volume operator. But I would say yes. We went through probably five pages of stuff in four different cars yesterday and one day. Oh, really? You're never going to do that on a low load. Yeah. So longer prep, but more time shooting versus long day less time shooting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And it does look better once you get it right, it definitely looks better. Unless you've got a product faster.

Oh, I did. Before getting into the gentleman, which is sick, by the way, I had to ask, New Zealand's worst commercial? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. What was the worst commercial ever made that you were? Oh, that's not the worst ever.

I think it was the worst in, when was it? That it would have been, 1993 yeah that in New Zealand there's this show called Fair Go and they used to have a like a show every year where they have like New Zealand's worst commercial and I guess are all of them I was in it it was that my brother used to do quite a bit of acting this is kind of how I partly got into the film industry I'd already found a love of photography out my mum bought me a little

second-hand camera and my brother used to do a bit of acting and I thought that be cool. I'll give that a go. And I managed to score a commercial and it was a sanitarian peanut butter commercial and I don't know if you have sanitarian but it's like New Zealand's most famous peanut butter and the ads used to be pretty cheesy. And I was a Jeff. Jeff is awesome. And I was playing a character, a kid walking around on a golf course driving range, picking up golf balls and getting hit in the head with the helmet on. And because of such a hard day that I had, I needed to sit down and eat a peanut butter sandwich at the end of it.

Right. But yeah, it was on that job. I got to see a real film camera. It was Ari Beale, 1,000 foot mag, 18 to 100, century zoom in a six by six map box. And I thought, wow, that is awesome. And this is a guy. The guy, that was so cool. The guy standing next to the camera, which I think was a grit.

I asked him how you get into the film industry and his answer was a lot of hard work, mate. Yeah. And so that was when it started. What made it the worst commercial, though? It was just a shit script, I think. And I mean, I told guys, they've walking around picking up golf balls getting hit in the head and sit down after a hard day and be it sandwich. After a hard day of getting hit in the head with a golf ball, it's time for a session. Yep.

She's hard life, mate. Someone's going to do it. Yeah. I wasn't sure if it because it was just like a byline on something and I was just like was it just shot shit but yeah that that is a pretty good I think for those of the time yeah yeah so with the with the gentleman you did the last four episodes correct yeah I did episode five through to eight and Guy Ritchie directed the first two yeah up the whole thing yeah and Ed Wilde was the lead deep pay on one and two so what was the

conversation between it does feel like whenever there's a project held by kind of a known director that's a series it does end up usually being it seems the first couple episodes set the tone and then

absolutely so what were the conversations like when when they were set were they setting up the look without you and then you were fulfilling it or were involved in those early conversations or Aaron and Aaron came up to the job only

I think a week or two before I did Aaron Creve being the direct lot three so episode seven and six and so he was as new to it as I was really with himself

and Laura Jackson our block producer we were luckily able to watch episode one or an early cut of it anyway so we got to

check that out and I was like holy shit this is so fucking good and then we're like after going wow it's amazing we were working on such a cool show

we then went oh shit we've got to do as good as that yeah this is like fuck i'm sorry i'm not allowed to swear no you're good you can say the fuck word here okay cool man um yeah so we watched that uh ed had also um drawn up like a couple of pages of PDF of what guy really likes kind of angles that he's into generally it was what not to do um and so that's your kind of base plan to stick with. That makes my notes far more interesting. What are you not supposed to do on a Guy Ritchie project? Oh, well, I mean, for instance, he doesn't like direct over shoulders. He likes to be back a bit further or be a clean single. He wants to see one eye, not two, or three-quarters

an eye, or anything like that. It was generally just a look for this show. I wouldn't say I couldn't tell you if it's in general what he likes and doesn't like. But it was more of a base level for that. Well, because as I was watching it, I noticed there were some, I guess what I didn't, when I think a guy rich, I primarily think dialogue with since I was watching it, you know, trying to see it. There were some Ritchieisms, you know, like your random slow-moes. Yeah.

We attach on cameras to shit, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, man, we put cameras on all kinds of stuff. It was great. The FX3 was brilliant for that. Oh, did you shoot FX3 on this? No, we shot Saudi Venice and Tequina, the Primes, actually. Those are amazing lenses.

They're really good, especially for the products. I think Ed, I underset, he's very smart man. And Abby, we're a good. Yeah, pretty, yep, yep. They're kind of like Master Primes, aren't? Yeah. And we chucked black satin, half black satin, filter on it, which worked well until you had like exposed bulbs and stuff like that.

The halation was too much, so you'd knock it down to a quarter or just take it out. Yeah, the, uh, I was talking to Eric Mezershmidt about Ferrari, but also the killer. And, uh, on the killer, he said they used this program called scatter, which, which is a diffusion plug in for resolve. No way. And so I reached out to him because, you know, it's kind of expensive. And I was like, can I write article about this because on a good day I'm a journalist and yeah and uh they're like yeah here here's a year uh subscription whatever you know here's a year and i'm telling you man it's

because i i hate that too when you have like a strong light or you're getting something from the side or or a bulb in the frame and now it's like way too aggressive yeah yeah yeah with scatter you can literally just you know i too you pick any filtered they look exactly correct i mean it's so close. Um, so you pick what filtration you want, what strength, but also if you want, you just key out something, you could put like a area. Yeah, just key out the area or put like a different strength in just that area or what, you know, whatever you want because it's a resolve plugin. Oh, mate, that's wicked. I suppose you'd be kind of want to be able to test it on set. I suppose. How would you do that? Just shoot it because you're not shooting filtration. Just take

any footage or, you know, shoot regular tests and then just put, drop it in. Just tell me that, can it do this? There's a, you know, can it work on a, on a location where you're not allowed to use haze, but you really want to use haze? Because I know they've got a smoke, smoke, smoke, filter, or whatever. The smart filters are in there. They work all right, right? They're not the same, no way.

But yeah, can it do that? It can. I mean, it can't fake haze. It's literally just a filtration emulation. Oh, right, right. But, you know, there is a, this is going to get nerdy, there is a depth map effect, basically, in Resolve that I've started using a lot for, instead of setting windows, you know, which sometimes you get that halo or you can't get pull like a good key on someone's face or whatever. So there's a depth map option that you drop in and it creates a, I don't know how it reads. some signs and it creates essentially a perfect key because the subject, unless the subject's

somewhere else, but usually the subject's right up front. So you just drop the depth map in and then you can affect, you know, whatever's closest gets the effect or what a coloring or lighting, whatever you're doing and whatever drop falls off is more natural. But I suppose you could invert it and drop the smoke filter from scatter just only in the background. Oh, man. And that That might be like a Hayes thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That sounds wicked. I like it.

Well, now they better give me two years for free. Yeah, it's like, oh, they, bro. Yeah, I deserve it. But, yeah, so, like, we're going back to the idea of, like, the types of shots, attaching things to people, the slow-bo shots, a lot of movement as well, you know. Yeah, we wanted to, there's always going to be the Nazis, sort of crime is genre style. I mean, you can get away with so much too because you just have such an awesome bass for what you want to be able to do. We definitely want to move the camera around a lot.

I think like, there's one scene in the boxing ring in Suzy Glass's gym where on paper it just read Susie and Eddie are watching a boxing match between her brother and she's really excited yeah if you know we got the phantom camera out and then we pulled off the guy when he when he hit the canvas and we went straight into their base and there's actually a lot of stuff that we did that got come out because it was too guy rich you know i think he didn't like it oh it became a little pastiche i suppose so yeah maybe but we had a lot of fun doing it so you know it was cool is that that's a scene with guz khan right oh my god that guy is so cool yeah like us you know when uh when gus gets punched by um by uh susy's brother yeah was his name the other glass the other glass jack glass uh yeah

where the gus gets hit and they falls backwards and then the music kicks in and it's kind of like yeah 48 frames that was a lot of fun to shit yeah also i i only knew that guy because of um taskmaster i don't know if you ever watched taskmaster but i haven't know but i'm a huge fat goes now man they'll tell you that after working with it you look up the you there's task map there's a taskmaster use in New Zealand so you've got a local one but the UK one is like the original it's literally just a like five comedians or actors or whoever and they have to just do tasks like that's the aim for points that don't matter yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah the tasks are absurd it's so fucking fucking dude um but uh yeah but that is another that that

that kind of 48 frame fall down definitely definitely another Richieism, as it were. Yeah, it was a lot of fun that. Yeah, we actually had to shoot out another day because they had to build the rig, and we had to move on to another set so we came back for that. It was, I'm glad we did it

because it almost got scrapped just for time. Yeah. Did you end up, because like, there's one shot in a caravan that's very snatch. Oh, yeah. Yeah, when the daytime scene where they're all sitting around.

Yeah, yeah, that was fun. Was that an objective reference, or did that just happen to kind of... I think that was pretty much written into the script that they're all sitting there and then just the position of Eddie and Susie's sitting at one end and then all the family at the other.

I'll tell you what man, shooting in Travellers' Caravans is probably one of the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. Really? Well, they're kind of one of a kind. We couldn't cut them up. There's mirrors absolutely everywhere.

They're not that big, and they're also covered in plastic. So where it's not mirror, it's shiny bits. Right. And then you'd chop about 13 people in there and there's nowhere to put a camera. But we got through it.

But the night scene in the Travellers caravan the first time where he had he has an argument with the head of the Travellers, that was really hard. And that was night one for me shooting sweet straight into the fire. What was the kind of,

because the show is incredibly, I have to always think about when people shoot in the UK, because I'm always like, oh, the lighting is so even. It's like, no, it's just overcast all the time. Yeah. That's not a choice. Yeah, no, yeah, it's definitely not as sunny as some places.

That's for sure. It feels like it's been rating for about six years at the moment. But, yeah, well, I mean, we got smashed by the weather, to be honest. We had all kinds of stuff going on. And we just pretty much just had to roll. What have we got? We woke up, I think, on the fourth morning, we were supposed to shoot the travelers arrival.

and it had snowed really heavily overnight and no one had seen it coming either it wasn't even on the weather report like there was a good few inches so everything he's looking at the call sheet like is this the right day yeah the cool chicken's spending cup it and snow it was um yeah so we had a bit of an emergency meeting

at breakfast and then decided to crack on and we managed to shoot the opening to EPSXOR it's probably seen four now it used to be at opening But when Eddie's just standing there looking out of the house did men and sit towards a snive, that worked really well. Yeah. What was the kind of, I suppose, general lighting approach? Because it does feel kind of like your classic, you know, soft key, but kind of thing.

But it feels like you were probably pretty nimble with everything. Or is that just an illusion and you had to use a ton of lights? A bit of both, because a lot of the times we were shooting in pretty big rooms, you know. Like the experience way to House Stead Manor is huge. I would either have a couple of 18s on a machine outside or what I preferred was about 20 or vortex. I love the vortexes. I got one by my house's door.

Oh yeah, nice. Yeah, I mean, it gives you such a nice look. And if you can get them close enough, it just look brilliant. And then obviously you can adjust for every one. And also then you can chuck it up for a moonlight when you go outside. do your nice stuff but generally we'd have big soft key uh passive sort of front bill and then a bit of a sidey light and a bit of a backlight sometimes eddie um theo james is actually quite tricky to light his eyes are quite deep set uh in his head good looking guy but he's quite hard to light and

he knows it too and he'll come and tell you early on and you go like you know just keep an eye on my eyes I think he gets annoyed of study you can't see his eyes. Fair enough. So yeah, it took a couple of days to figure that one out as well. He probably gets notes. Hey, can you look up more? Can you look up more? Yeah.

He quite enjoys coming and watching the take afterwards, to be honest, and he'll ask if it feels he needs it. Was the key there just to get things angled correctly, or were you employing like an eye light in general? Sorry, what's the question? Do you, like, for situations like that, did you, is it just about like angling the light correctly or were you employing a specific eye light? Would generally have a light a bit close to the camera that I normally wouldn't a little bit lower. So we were using the Sinios, which are like the weatherproof versions of the 360, but they're not made by Ari.

Right. So we'd have that pretty much just off camera. Sometimes through like an 8 by T-bar. And that seemed to do it. That worked well. We'd have, for the night stuff, sometimes we'd have a big gem ball or something like that. Susie, Kyah's skin face really lit up when you chucked the gem bull on it. Amazing.

Yeah. It was quite light. This comes up on every single interview, so I'm going to bring it up. And they actually are my friends. did you end up using a sterotubes? Yeah, we did, but... There they are. We did. Yeah, we did, bro. We did,

but differently to what I had used them in the past, we'd used them with the snap bags, and then after that, I think they started creating crates for the snap bags as well. So it'd be like a two-foot soft box or a four-foot soft box, and I'd do that a lot. Sometimes we'll put two full-foots together, And that would work really well. It's still very handy, especially by our lights.

And so you were using those primarily as keys, or were you late in the room with those? Generally wasn't lighting the room with those. We just weren't in spaces that would light a room with that kind of, yeah, that kind of lamp really, would generally bigger from outside or just a bit bigger in general, all great lights. Well, the next pole, the every more ex-poles. Oh, sure, yeah, the aperture ones or whatever. yeah that's super handy okay yeah those bulbs and like the little mc pucks are like you know whatever the little magnetic oh yeah those things are rad is it rusco today to the little dash dots and you've got the um uh the hydrop panels i have a literally uh fuck yeah that's a box

of hydro panels right there really me yes a good a good land man they are so good yeah my board operator likes them a lot too because he says they're easier to connect or whatever they'd call it. Yeah. Well, and like the case charges them, you know, obviously you can use the iPad. Yeah. They're awesome. How are you using them primarily? Just for smaller spaces? Smaller spaces, yeah, or yeah, pretty much just small spaces. I've got a dash dot at home and I've not been able to use it yet. The only time I've ever used it is when we had someone come around and I turned it on to the police boat and I told him that the cops for the strap you know what's funny is so I there's a camera supply store called film tools over here and yeah they had just a bunch of lights out on the floor and so one day I walked in there with my color meter and I just metered everything just to see like what lights are actually good like sky panels don't actually I've said it a few times and I hope already doesn't listen yet but sky panels aren't like the best. Like Vortex is actually, Keno, Keno LEDs are by far the most accurate, beautiful.

Oh, yeah. Is that the SL1 and the SL2? Is that the SL1 and SL2? No, it's the freestyle, the diva. They're all exactly the same. Any of the Keno LEDs are the same. It's just different housings, basically. Oh, cool.

It was good, like, I was still smashing. I've always felt sad for all those Keno bulbs lying around, wherever they are. I had so many. I know what's nice actually is a few years ago because I had a diva kit. Oh, the initial point I was going to say was the Rosco actually the dash incredibly good output. I was surprised at all like how smooth that spectral output is and how accurate it is. But what was nice was Keno, it needs parts for those fluorescent fixtures to fix. other broken ones

and just they don't have any because they don't make them anymore so they gave me like a 60% discount on the new LED panels if I would just trade in my old fluorescent ones because they needed them for parts and I'm sitting there going like

how much of this do you need and they're like you can take whatever you want out of that box because we just need really the parts and it's like amazing they're like best company you think I'd just be sitting in a box Someone at everyone's like lighting store or whatever.

Well, that's the thing is I think there's a lot of rental houses that probably still have them, but they're not going to give them back, you know. Yeah, that what's happening is the rental houses are sending the fixtures into Kino to get fixed. So they need, they need mine to replace them, basically. Right. That's wicked. Yeah, jump on A-band, try and buy some old Kina kit. Yeah.

They did produce like a nice, a nice light. Yeah. I did like it. We used it on Lord the Rings a lot, that's for sure. Really? Yeah. I figured that would have just been all tungsten all the time. No?

Pretty sure we had, no, it's a lot of keen. I remember the data light was used quite a bit to get under Ian McKellon's hat. Oh, sure, yeah, yeah. I might be wrong, bro, but I don't think, yeah. It was a while ago. Yeah, it's 22 years ago. What kind of, when you were outside, you know, I noticed that obviously, we were talking about the weather kind of screwing you guys up, but that,

how do you shape overcast or do you even bother? Because there's like some direct sun stuff that looks kind of untouched as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you're probably going to, yeah. I try and inside light or backlight when I can just to keep you out of the trouble, really, for crane shutters or camera shadows or beam shadows. And even if it's going to be overcast, I still plan it as if it's going to get sunny because you never know it.

It's how it's going to pop open and if you're based in the wrong direction. Actually, nearing the shit. Just state that, yeah, I'll chuck in like a 12. Yeah, there was something like that. Just to get a bit of drop off on the, on the, um, on the, um, on 12 by what? Negative. Oh, sure. Yeah, that's what I called.

He just dropped out for a second, so I didn't hear. Oh, sorry, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I'd use like a 12 by negative, or depending how big it can be. If we're walking with it, can be an 8 by, uh, 8 feet. Don't do it. Yeah, when I was working in China and I asked for an 8 by, and that's freaked out because because they thought I wanted 8 by 8 meter. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, Matt. Yeah, so you pretty much do that. Just keep it pretty chill, really. All we do is those sineos to add a little bit of highlight and just get in the eyes, drop a bit of white on the floor if you need to. But generally, I don't have a cast day. You don't need to do too much. And even on an eye cast day, keep you in it backlit.

You still get a bit of backlight, you know. And just you, I mean, you either see it or like, I guess the Sunseek or. Yeah. Yeah, it doesn't, and there's bloody lying to you. I don't trust mine too much anymore. I've always got to check with other people now. The mine, because I have an Android, I don't use Sunseeker, the app, it's like another version of it.

And it always tells me it needs to like calibrate. Like you pointed to the sun and it just, it's just whithing around. I'm like, that doesn't seem. Yeah, totally. Man, it's nothing worse setting up and then realizing that on the record. here. It was completely backwards. Oh, geez. Does that happen? Uh, well, no, I've got to the end of a recie and had to go up to the director and

go on, hey, I'm sorry, mate, but, uh, yeah, that was completely wrong what I told you. The sun's actually over there. Yeah. But now I bring in the gaffer, and so at least I can share the responsibility of totally fucking out. Yeah. How long was the shoot for the show? Was it a pretty compact schedule for the gentleman? Yeah. Uh, I think it was about, five weeks per it. I think it was like 29 days. No, no,

no, it was good. Yeah, I can't, yeah, I think I may have had slightly longer on,

on block one, but I'm pretty sure we, I think we got down to about 28 days on block four. Still decent. Yeah, no,

it was all right. I think we're shooting between three and five pages a day. Sometimes we'd get a six if we're in one space or, down to two of moving around, but it was generally between three and five. Yeah.

When having like a nice schedule like that, uh, does that afford you anything logistic? I mean, obviously, not logistically like shooting, but like in your management style, like, does, are you able to kind of, as David Lynch would say, like, get dreamy with it and like think about stuff or is it kind of still get going just with, but you have more time? Definitely, definitely still under the pump, you know, because like some people want more takes. or for whatever reason you get held up. I mean, three, four, five pages a day, it's still pretty quicker.

But also, because it's not like that kind of style to it, you do need to put an effort into shooting with a bit of emotional energy. You can't just like smash it out. I mean, obviously we had to run out again when we're totally running at the time. But, yeah, we just, it did allow us to give a little bit more energy into the visual storytelling.

Sure. Did, uh, was there anything? Because I've started, I realized recently after 140 episodes of this thing, I, I've never really gotten into the, the management position of being a DP. It's always been lighting cameras and whatnot. Oh, really? Yeah. And it's just such an important part. I'm like, that was a blind spot. I should have started this earlier. Uh, but I kind of wanted to know, uh, was there anything that you learned from any, like, mentors or anything that you've carried on? to the way that you run a team or anything that maybe some advice you have for people. A fact from being a camera assistant, the second A.C was really just like work your butt off, keep your head down, be nice to people. I think for DP wise, Steve Winden was actually

probably one of the biggest influences that I've worked with because he's just such a lovely guy. He's working on like Fast and Furious to 9 or 10. And it's like you're at the pub with him. You know, it's just such a good dude. Other than that, not really. I think just in general, I seem to be a pretty happy, go-lucky kind of person. I just try and treat people with respect.

And as long as you're trying your best, then I'm cool, you know, I'm happy. It's when people piss around and take, you know, go kicking around on their phone when they need to be doing something. Right. stuff that you know are you able to are you in the position in your career where you're able to like bring your crew from set to set or is it someone else making those decisions no yeah i was uh well on games of londing because i was lead dp i was able to pick my crew and um sad thing because of the uh the strikes i had sort of the pick of london to be honest so um

sure yeah we had an amazing crew on that uh but uh when you like when you're a block dp you don't really get too much say in your crew and that's someone's sleep or maybe your second unit DP you can have a bit of saying other than that you just sort of give them what you give them but I don't the pretty are awesome everyone's lovely you don't really get dix anymore I've noticed I you know I've I've heard that that that era of like stomping around angry like DPs producers other crew whatever is kind of dead and I think it's cell phones but we can film it now yeah yeah I never thought of that yeah yeah it's an opticon effect yeah yeah yeah oh man yeah those days are pretty much over you still see it every now

again but it's nowhere near as full on it used to be I've seen some seen some shit and like in the late 90s early 2000s but um it's all pretty chill now yeah it's uh it is funny like you know the joke is always like we're not carrying cancer here like why why do yeah it's i mean it's stressful obviously but it's well i guess that's truly the answers most people don't have especially back then uh you don't go to therapy and tell yeah absolutely i mean yeah therapy is a good thing especially if you're in a crazy position like uh you know D.P. Yeah.

A lot. Operating. Say again. Or focus pulling or operating or gaffing. I mean, the whole industry is pretty intense, really, isn't it? Focus pulling especially. Like, everyone wants to shoot full frame at a 1-4. Yeah.

You're just like, uh-huh. Yeah, and never ever, well, we certainly on the show of mine at the moment at the moment. We're not getting any rehearsals or almost never. Maybe 90% of the time we shoot the rehearsal. And it just makes me thinking that cat. What is that, you know, that cat, the rehearsal cat? Rehearsal cat?

Yeah, have you not heard a rehearsal cat? No. Maybe I have to send it to it. Oh, okay. I thought it was well known. Maybe no one. Maybe it's, I'm also like, admittedly ignorant about a lot of things. So it could be popular and I just have no idea.

Wait. But yeah, you can DM that to me. Well, I see that we're going over. I know it's later for you. than May. Oh, it's all given, a little bit. So I'll let you go. But definitely would love to have you back on, talk about the new show.

And honestly, probably get more into Masters of Air. I like touched on it and then didn't even. Oh, yeah, yeah. I've been so lucky to work on such cool stuff recently, especially I've not been in a big drama very long, you know, maybe four years. It's been apps. Amazing. And so it's been talking to you, mate.

It's been brilliant. Thank you. Appreciate it, dude. Yeah, we'll stay in touch. I just added you on the old Graham. So, uh, wicket. Yeah, cool. All right, man. Take care, and thanks again for hanging out. Thanks, Kenny.

Hey, mate. Frayman Reference is an Al-Bot production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. As this is an independent podcast, you know, we rely on support and listeners like you. So if you'd like to help, you can buy me a coffee by going to frame and refpod.com, and there's a little button to buy me a coffee. That's also where you can find video versions of this podcast or audio, depending on. on how you're doing it now. Thank you so much. See you next time.