Frame & Reference Podcast - 14: “Billie Eilish: The World’s A Little Blurry” DP Jenna Rosher

Episode Date: April 29, 2021

On todays episode of the Frame & Reference Podcast, Kenny talks with Jenna Rosher about DP'ing the new documentary “Billie Eilish: The World’s A Little Blurry.” In this new Apple TV+ show we get an intimate look at Billie Eilish’s journey as she navigated life on the road, on stage and at home all while creating her debut album. Jenna has shot a number of music documentaries including “Dave Matthews Band: Stand Up” and “Inside Out: Trey and Dave Go To Africa” as well as the documentary “Robin Williams: Come Inside My Mind.” Enjoy the episode! Thanks for listening! If you like the podcast, please give it a like and leave a review on your podcast app of choice. Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello, and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and today we're talking with Jenna Rocher, the DP of the film The World's a Little Blurry, the Billy Eilish documentary. It's a fantastic film. highly recommend you watch it. It's on Apple Plus, Apple TV Plus, which got to Apple TV. They've got their own screener app on the old Roku, which is cool. Anyway, like I said, fantastic documentary. Jenna is a wealth of knowledge. I certainly learned a lot, had a lot of fun talking to her, and I think you'll have a lot of fun listening to her. So, yeah, that's all I got for the intro. I will say if you hear, if it does sound a little

choppy. It's because I was having a real hard time putting together sentences. I'll say I was really excited. I don't know. Anyone who knows me knows that sometimes I'll start a question, start a different question, dovetailed to a completely different question, and then end up somewhere else. And so for your sanity, I've cut that out, but unfortunately for Jenna, she had to live it. So apologies to her there. But yeah, it's a great talk. Jenna's fantastic. And And yeah, let's get to it. Here is my interview with Jenna Rocher. To start off, I was able to watch the documentary.

So I'll start with this. You're a director as well. What do you classify this film as? Because it's not quite documentary and it's not quite concert film. In my opinion. I mean, I think it's an observational music document. or a Verite, what I would often like to throw back to like the classic Verite music doc, a la don't look back or give me shelter.

I mean, that was sort of the focus going in with RJ was like, okay, we're doing this. Watch, don't look back again. So that was like the point of reference that you guys used for like where that's our, what do you call it, guidestone? Yeah, like Pennebaker, Maisels. Like, let's go back and re-watch these observational, you know, music documentaries and just kind of use them as inspiration, as sort of a reference, as whatever. And we did. And I think it was great.

I mean, I love Don't Look Back. I love Give Me Shelter. You know, they're two of my favorite films. So, yeah, I that we did that first. And I think given that we knew that, you know, our job. had met with Billy and her family and knew that she was about to embark on a journey, you know. And so that was sort of the kind of the perfect starting point for any like observational

film because it's not like we're looking, referring back into time of things that happened. We're actually, it's happening. So we're just like jump in and get on the, you know, get on the bus and take the ride, you know. So that's how it sort of played out. Yeah, because I, obviously, I was aware of. of Billy, because the radio and, um, impossible to miss the girl, uh, but, um, I, I, I, in my head, all, it all happened at once. And so I was watching the documentary and I was like, how do you get all these cameras like ready to go? Like, why is this being paid for? And then I realized

she had an EP. Duh. Like Ocean Eyes was how many years, like two years earlier? Yeah, it was a few, I mean, she recorded Oceanize. It was 13, 14. It was a few years prior. So, So she had a building audience, you know, she had a good pretty, pretty solid fan base, but not not mainstream fan base. Like she had hardcore fans, she had a really strong fan base, but she was about to enter what we see is like mega, mega, mega, mega, mega startem. So yeah, it was, it was one of those things, you know, when we, when I was, when RJ contacted me and he literally said like, check this, check this.

this artist out. I think you're going to be intrigued. And I really want, I want to, I want to collaborate with you on this film. I think it's, without a doubt, will be a Verite film, as we love to make. And I said, great. And I saw a multitude of videos of her. And I was, I was just like, I don't need to see anymore. She's incredible. I want to, I want to know more. I want to know more. Let's, you know. Yeah. And so had you worked with RJ in the past or how, what is, what was your relationship with him like so um i have worked with him in the past yeah i was an additional camera person on september issue which was his film about um vogue about anna winter and vogue and that was many years many moons ago we shot we shot that film or i worked on that um the great rob bop richmond

was the dp on that um and then i did short with him for like usa network um about a chef here in in Los Angeles, which was really just fun. And we did little things here and there. Those are the main things. But we're, you know, it's a small community, the doc community, and I'm always just, you know, keeping track of what he's up to and likewise. And, you know, he came to me and he just said,

I want to, I think you're the right person to shoot this movie about this young artist who's literally evolving quick. And her path is, it's just, just erupting. I think it's on the verge of eruption and I think you'd be the right person to shoot it. So yeah, this was this was the ultimate collaboration for sure. You know, I, we had no idea it would turn out to be what it was because we had no idea what was going to happen with Billy's career. I mean, we had a good sense. We had a good, you know, we had a, we had a, we had

there was definitely magic in the air from the moment we met her in the sense that this is not the ordinary artist, mainly because of, obviously, because of her age, but also just how unique she is. She's so incredibly unique. I filmed with a lot of musicians, and I've never filmed with anybody like her before, so. Yeah, and that includes the Ringo Star Tribute documentary. I mean, like every amazing drummer in one room, that was so much fun. Yeah, that was for Rock and Hall of Fame. That was so much fun. I've worked with a lot of musicians. You know, but I think one of the main differences is that we were not just filming an independent adult artist.

We're filming like a family. We're filming an artist who's under 18. She's a teenager. So it's just that quickly was the obvious difference at that moment, but it became so much more than that too. It has a lot to do with just the period, that time frame that we were with her was just so much going on for her and for her family.

Is the mindset literally just zen out and look for what's good, or are you constantly on a track that's like, I need to be getting X footage or I need to be making sure that I'm talking to so and so or anything like that? I think it's a combination of a lot of things. I think when you're making an observational film or Veritas film, I think some of the most critical things is in terms of just who you are and your approach to deal. dealing with people in their real life. And I think patience, I think compassion, empathy, curiosity, you have to love people. You have to be wanting to go and sort of immerse yourself in someone's world.

It's definitely not about you. I think that it's about saying, okay, I thank you for letting me in your world and I respect you and I will try and take the cues take the cues when I need to kind of maybe take a break or not film or back off, so to speak. But I think then there's also simultaneously, and this kind of speaks to RJ's story and his just his focus on stories, like really knowing, having a sense of like, okay, what are we filming? What's happening? And kind of keeping that, you know, over here. And then being open to like,

the surprises, you know, to give an example when she went and got her license, right? We were there and the things we knew where we're like, okay, here's this like, you know, right of passage moment for any teenager getting their license. It means all these things, although we did not have any sense of what was going to kind of happen following. And what I mean is like she gets her license, we're in the car with her. She's having this conversation with her dad about, I'm going to now I get to be alone in my car. And it's only, until she gets back home that she starts to like get ready to leave and she's leaving like she's out of there and I think we're all kind of sort of I don't know we were sort of all taken aback by

what transpired because once she left her dad you know kind of goes into this whole moment of realizing that he just said goodbye to his daughter like this was the first time that she left house by yourself. I literally have a note here that says dad knows what's up and it was that exact scene. It's it's so beautiful and it's so he's such a poet in the way he speaks and the way he thinks he's such a lovely person and for him to realize in that moment and we were just there I think we were all kind of and you know and RJ's a father so he's connecting with him as a father but but for Patrick I think there was a moment where he was he was just standing there kind of like she's gone and this is what's going on for me and we're just rolling and then mom maggie comes out because she wanted to say

goodbye and she's gone and we're like this we never anticipated something like that would unfold and it just did and it's to me it's so relatable to so many people because you know you remember the first time you got your license and you had that freedom plus what it's like to be a parent to kind of let go and to live, as Patrick says, in denial, you know? It's just, it was like poetry in that moment. It was just, it just happened. And it was like the, you know, it's that, those are the moments you have to be patient for. You know, so you know you're going to film, Billy's getting a license.

This is a big mark. Let's get this. But like, what happens after was like the gift. Like you said, it's a hundred percent relatable on so many different levels. I will add it's what makes it's what takes like what is definitely a music documentary but it's also a coming of age film in that moment you know? Yeah totally

that's what's sort of beautiful about the film in many ways it's like yes it's about it's about a young person coming of age and a family navigating fame and and and you know what it means to have their whole all of their lives transformed and really a short amount of time. You know, so I don't know.

It's kind of those two things. And I think that's what's really sort of special about the movie. Yeah, my thought at the end of it, you know, I remember there's a scene on the bus where she's stressing out about like what the internet thinks and stuff. And in the back of my head, I was like, I wish I knew this girl so I could just be like, listen, the starting line's not until you're like 27.

You're fine. You're like, just send it. You'll be great. Yeah. It's like she had to go through that, though. You know, I think, I think what's beautiful about that bus scene is like, that's where Billy, to me, really starts to take on her. She starts to be in charge. She starts to realize, like, hey, I was put in a really uncomplicated situation there.

Like, she was vulnerable, but she was, you know, she was a compromising situation. That's what I meant to really say. and and she's her reaction isn't to to her reaction is to say hey this is not okay you guys can't let this happen again like i'm we're all here because of me you know we're all here because i'm the boss and she started to really in my opinion take sort of ownership of that in the most graceful beautiful way too it's just like i don't want to go through that again um so i and they all responded like let's not throw it or the wolves you know as mom says you know and and i I think everyone took listen and it changed.

There was a shift there, I feel like, in that moment in the movie. You really get to see her navigate a lot of things in this movie, not just as a rising star, but as just a young woman who's, you know, growing up. So I think that's kind of the neat thing is to see, because obviously the young woman growing up is gonna be more relatable to people.

Sure. And that's there. So that's always, you know, for me, like, relatability is always, kind of an important thing in storytelling. Yeah. What on a more technical question, what both, what have you learned on previous documentaries that

allowed you to do this? But what are you doing technically that allows you to be in the moment and not be too intrusive, but at the same time, get the footage that you want? Because I mean, if we really wanted, we'd all be shooting docs on a cell phone. And we'd be very unobtrusive, right? Just hey, whatever you want to do, you know?

And there's plenty of cell phone footage in this film, but it's theirs, which works. Her amazing mother, who has the most incredible foresight of any human being. Yeah. Well, for me, especially preparing for a Verite film, I think it's being prepared. You know, knowing the environments that I'm going to be in, knowing the importance of being fluid. Just making sure it's still recording here. It's fine. And fluidity is key. You know, someone like Billy, she's just moving. She's going to, you know, radio station to do an interview. She's off to do a photo shoot. Then she's going backstage and then she's going to do a show. And so I think for me it was like, okay, how do I keep myself super lean and keep my footprint down to a minimum? I mean, first and foremost, RJ was very much like we need to have the smallest, slimmest crew possible.

to keep the intimacy where we want it, right? So, you know, in most films, like, depending on the film, I'll have an AC. In this case, no AC, just me. There were ACs that helped us in other aspects of the film, like the concerts and stuff. But in terms of the day-to-day being with Billy, it was just me, the sound person, and RJ. And maybe a producer would fly by occasionally, but not really. I mean, it was literally the three of us there. And that really lends itself to having the intimacy that you,

want to get out of, out of the story and out of the subjects. So, um, and then in terms of gear, you know, I would just, I literally pack for the day. Like a mountain, like a mountain, I don't know, like a mountaineer. I like have my my waist packs with the batteries and my cards. And, and then I like have my lenses all ready to go. And if I'm lucky enough to be in one area for a period of time. I stashed like just my little things and one different, a few more lenses, but I have like my go-to kit based on where I think I'm going to be. And so that's, and then I can roll for hours, you know, and often we were there an entire day. And, you know, we'd have little breaks and we'd hang out and just chat with them for a bit. But like, it was

this notion of like, get ready and we're going in and we're not coming out for a while and be prepared for that. So that's how I would sort of operate gear-wise. and then just kind of, I guess, emotionally, just going in, just keeping it small. A little small group. And you were on the C-300 Mark 2? I was on the C-300 Mark-2. Yeah, the workhorse, a Valveritae workhorse camera. You know, it's just the perfect camera for it.

Like a smaller kind of DSLR-sized body is just doesn't work for me, shooting-wise. I need a little bit more of a body to work with that I can work well with lenses. and I work on a monopod rig, so that gives me a lot more hours of just being up and ready. I'm never like having to pick up my camera. It's just with me, on me. It's part of me. It's hooked into a vest and we're friends.

And then I have my little cini saddle in the back, which is sometimes my backrest cushion, alternates as the front little camera come down, lower eye level, shooting, you know, if people are sitting, I'm just ready for any situation. Got the best sneakers on, in case I have to run.

Do you, I was going to ask, what's your footwear recommendation? You know, the most comfortable shoes that one can find, they're usually, you know, running shoes, Nike running shoes. I shot, I've shot a lot of, got these on, you know. Oh, those are chunky. Lots of air and cushion to keep things, to keep the, you know, the lower back happy. Yeah, I, I've shot a lot of concerts. like oh not big ones but uh the uh i was i was always wearing the sambas just the like indoor

because the arch support and then uh recently i've gotten into those um australian what are they called the uh those like weird work boots that everyone has red wings no but i wore those i wore the iron rangers for the longest time and it felt great shooting and then afterwards i was like ow yeah yeah they're good while you have blenstone Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Those are good. Those have been good.

But yeah, the footwear thing, it's like, it's weird, you know, the more interviews I do, the more I realize, like we'll get through the gear stuff, but there's other stuff. Like the Cinnisaddle is dope. I know. Oh, God send. Love it. The, the DP, Zach Zamboni from Parts Unknown. He did all of Anthony Burdain stuff.

He had a little thing called a hip shot, which would like fold away. Yeah. Same thing. Yeah. Same thing as the sin. I mean, I use it for the same reason. I use the hip shot as like the sinny saddles my hip shot. Yeah.

Yeah. Was your lens package purely utilitarian or do you have like a specific look that you like? I mean, I love the look of the Canon lenses. I love to shoot Verite on 35 primes. So I was shooting on 35 cine primes, Canon sinne primes. And then, you know, I. for interiors, I was a lot of the 35, like I said, I love it. If I know if I'm going to be in an environment that's somewhat spatially predictable,

then I'll roll on the 35, especially in like in green rooms and things that just don't have any lighting to offer me, then I'm like, okay, let's just like ramp, let's just get the lensing that's going to help it out, you know. But if I'm in really beautifully lit areas that have just a source of light coming from somewhere, So it's giving me the shadows and giving me like either's the half light or the nice frontal on, you know, from profile or something. Then I'm, you know, I'm falling on like a 24 to 70 lens cannon, you know, in the car or being in the exteriors. I love their, I was using their 18 to 80, Cine Zoom. You know, all EF mount. Just easy to kind of cart around even where.

on my body, if needed. I'd always have the prime in my little pouch with all my cards and my batteries and then I'd have like one of my lenses on. And I would stash lenses in the Cine saddle. Another great thing about that. Cine saddle has pockets. I'd put lenses in there and I'd wear it on me.

It was just hilarious. So yeah, so it was a combination of utilitarian and also just I like the look of them, especially for Verite, they're fine. They're beautiful. They do the job. Yeah. Talking more about the rigging and stuff for concerts I was always wearing.

I don't do it so much anymore. I did a few fashion shoots like this, and I realized I was kind of scaring the talent because I've become more self-aware as to how this looks. And so what I was doing was I had a Molly vest, like a military vest. And so that, you know, because it's inexpensive, but they're literally battle tested.

So there's a There's a magazine dump pouch Which folds up into a little Pocket like that But if you pop it open It's a big pouch where you're supposed to put spent magazines But it's the perfect size for lenses Yeah, yeah

So you can have like two of those And just plop them open When you don't need them fold them up Or you know water bottle or whatever like that There's great stuff out there Yeah like fishermen Fish or women, Fishermen Whatever, fishermen's best

Fish people Fish people's best Yeah I have to just pockets in space that you can put things in, you know, I love that. I just have it all on me. And like I said, I could stash it in a corner, then great. But honestly, the city saddle, I literally lean up against the corner.

And it's like a back, it's like a back cushion, aside from any other, you know, being used for other things. Yeah. Talk to me about your concert cinematography. What was the approach there? I actually, you're in the film, aren't you? Yes, I am. I saw that easy rig, yep. When we were at the color, I was like, let's find a way to color this out.

And it would have been a massive job, you know, to get me out of there. So we just had to let that go. And it's, you know, it's just funny. It's fine. Everyone's like, you were there. You're behind them. It's obvious. You're behind the bed.

Then you cut to the, it's fine. I'm like, but it's not going. There's a reason I operate a camera. I don't want to see me operating cameras. It's fine. Yeah. So early on, before we started to do multi-cam during the concerts, you know, we were on tour with her in Europe and we literally just, it would just be me filming. And there's the beauty to just being one camera. You know, RJ said to me, rather than trying, I think maybe it was one of the first times I filmed, I think I was trying to like get variety for him. Because when you're one camera, you just like when I'm shooting. obviously a scene in a room, it's just me, but there might be three people having a conversation, right? So I'm doing my best to supply, you know, the editors with enough material that they can

cut the scene together. So I was going into the concerts with that, like, well, gosh, I got to vary the shot or vary my locations, so they have stuff to work with. But at the end of the day, it was going to be impossible to get a song if I'm trying to bury up the shot. You know, it's more tricky when you're when you're shooting music and rj said to me just don't worry just sit with her just be with her and i was like that is such a relief to get that uh direction from him because it takes the i was like yeah that's all i really want to be with anyways just be with her and so pick a frame that works for this song and just stay there and don't move and i did um and so some of this some of the music, some of the performances is just from me being the one camera and they just

use a clip of it. And that's, I think I want to say, in Australia, it's kind of a peachy tone. I always refer to the tones of different performances. I think it's, I need to check, but I think it's listen before I go is the song. And she's just singing and there's these beautiful faces just singing with her. And I was just parked down and I just, you know, I was probably on that frame for the whole song and I buried up, didn't move. And they used like a good chunk of it because just exactly what he was wanting was just to be with, be with her. Yeah. And then so you, for a while you were on single and then you went to multicam, you said? Then we, yes. And then what RJ did was sort of pick certain shows that she knew she was doing that might benefit from multicam. And so

like South Street Seaport which is where she's up on the bed and she's crying because she had just broken up with her boyfriend like that concert, that show that's multi-cam obviously Coachella was also we did not shoot Coachella

because they have their own crews there that shoot the shows and that actually that made sense because I really needed to be with her backstage and just be ready for like before she goes on and right when she gets off Because so much of the story of Coachella, aside from the music, which was amazing to see what her experience was being there, was what was going on for her after the show and before the show. It's a whole interesting sort of story that plays out for her, not just musically and career-wise, but personally what's happening for her simultaneously.

So, but for backing up to South Street Seaport, you know, that was, I think I want to say we had like three or four cameras. there. I was always the camera on stage because I knew Billy and she felt comfortable with me. Obviously, it's been time doing stage shows with her. So we'd always kind of map out where I was going to be. So I wasn't too much of a distraction for them. And then we'd have this amazing DP, Jessica Young. She was out in capturing all those amazing shots of those fans singing along, crying. And then we had another camera in the front as well by another DP named Kenny who was filming that. So we had, you know, we were very selective where we wanted the camera to live based on how Billy performs and what made the most sense. And it was nice to get that because

you want to see other angles. You want to see other perspectives. And I think the choice to use a lot of the fans singing and was really a great choice editorially because the fans are, as Billy says, She is her fans and her fans are hers. They're part of her. And I think you can't really truly understand her music without understanding her relationship to her fans and the impact she has on their lives, you know? Yeah, well, plus that visual language is very concert.

You know, on the big jumbo-trons, you're always getting the audience and that kind of thing. And you kept the shooting package there? You moved to, I think, Alexa at that point? Or? Yeah, we moved for, so I literally would be on the canon all day long on the Mark 2 and then right up to the show. But again, there was a lot of shows where I, when it was just me shooting, I stayed on the cannon the whole time. It was only when

we brought multiple cameras that we, um, we were on Alexis and I think we were on Venice as well on one particular. Really like the Venice. Yeah. Yeah. Um, camera. So we would do that mix it up. What was the reasoning for switching to a different system on, uh, multi-cam? Um, I think we, I think we were looking to maybe give the concerts a little slight, a slight different look, you know, um, said, why not try and just do something a little bit different, you know? And I can also, you know, I can sustain those, a rig like that for a show versus it just does not make sense to be shooting for me, for particularly in this movie to be on anything bigger than what I was on, mainly. I mean, for intimacy and fluidity, it just didn't make sense. But for the show, we're like, okay, why don't we just try different looks for the show, different lensing, just to see how we can have maybe a slight distinction visually between the shows and between the verite with Billy.

So that's what we did. What were the lenses there? We were on, we were on ARI super speeds on primes. Yeah, we run, yeah, super speeds. Well, and it's probably, I mean, it's kind of the obvious answer, but like the Canon bodies have so much more, there's so much more built for a solo operator. You know, it's a lot of, you know, you got your NDs in there,

you got all your audio, you got all the buttons. Love the buttons. Mini has no buttons. Yeah. No, it's not, it's not, it's not, no, it's not, for me, it's not a Verite camera. I mean, the Canon is, is an operator. you know friendly camera it's it's just and the again the profile even though the minnie's not much you know not that much bigger it's that you have to build out the mini it just becomes a beast

whereas canon you could still use the lithium batteries that keep it small you could still for me I have a monopod so like literally the mark two is like part of my body like it's just here and that's how I shoot it and um I literally could just hang out and talk you know when I'm not to with it just sitting here with the lens, you know. And it was just, it was just the right thing, it was just right. And it also was great for the shows that I did shoot on it. It was wonderful. Because again, it goes back to that like,

I didn't have to cover the whole concert the way one might think they have to. I was given this sort of blessing of direction for Marjay just to like hunk her down and be with her, you know, for wherever you want to be, wherever you think is right for that song. And I think the canon did great. Right. It's so good and low light. You know, it's ridiculous. It can handle so much. Have you seen the canon's going to have to start sponsoring the podcast because we end up talking about this all the time. But I, I own a 500 Mark 2. Have you seen that? Have you played with that?

Oh, yeah. I love it. Great camera. Yeah. Do you think everyone's going to switch to that or do you think the industry or the 300 mark three? Or do you think the sort of dock industry is going to stick with tried and true for a long time? because, you know, I know, especially in the sort of film television world, no one wants a curveball. No one wants a new anything. I know. They get very accustomed to a certain camera and they- Codex. Post doesn't want anything new. Oh, yeah, codex. Don't be giving me new codex and get everyone all crazy. I mean, people have been embracing both of those, the C-500 and the new C-300 Mark 3E. They've been both embraced already. So I think, I know, I think everyone's, you know, is,

are shooting on these. I think people want, you know, they want to have an LF option, a full frame option. So, particularly with whatever they're shooting, whether it's an interview. I mean, I think full frame's a little trickier with Veret in terms of focus. But it's doable, you know, you can make adjustments to accommodate to try and make it feel comfortable for the operator, but I still think it's, you know, it's such a, like, operating-wise, it's such a great camera for running gun for Veritay, and it provides such a beautiful image. So it's just always been the no-brainer for me. I've shot on a lot of films with it.

Switching gears a little bit. Having, I've always said that, like, there's certain bands that have influenced my filmmaking style. Is there anything that they have taught you about filmmaking? You know, all I could say is I've filmed with artists in studio. I've filmed

artists performing over the years. And there's you very much feel like you're part of it, you know, like musically. Like when I'm filming an artist on stage I feel

like the, it's so much influences the way I shoot and the way I feel behind the camera, right? So I have to just be careful not to like dance or move my body because I'm reacting to the music like as just a human being. Like that's going to not look good. But I feel like it does sort of impact the way that I approach things because, you know, cinematography, especially in documentary, it has so much to do with your confidence. and that takes a while to nurture because you have to know like okay this is where I need to be right now and I have to be okay with it. I can't start switching it up. There's nothing more annoying to a director

or an editor to be like, where did you hold on that? Or why are you trying to move? Just stop, you know. Thorsten brought that up. What's that? Thorsten brought that up. Just be okay with your decision. It might not be the best, but just be okay with it. And they'll be the moment to, like, to move and re-approach from another place. I think it's interesting filming people who are making art, you know, too, is like that you're not, it's sort of like, you know, in certain countries, when you photograph, it's a sin, and it feels like they feel like you're stealing their soul. I don't mean to laugh at that.

It's really real. And so I feel like for artists, like when you're filming them, making music or performing, there's this element of like you're taking from me. And I always try and make it feel as if no, I'm, this is, this is, this is, this is, I'm giving and taking and you're giving and taking and it's, it's shared, you know. So I think that I can't say that I know like an actual band. I mean, I do, I'm a huge radio head fan. I'm a huge Bjork fan.

I'm very much into artists that are very cinematic in the way they make their music. so they inspire me you know um i actually worked on a series i produced a series many years ago called sonic cinema and it was for sundance channel and it was about how music and film converged so it was a lot about music videos that were that were done by roman copla and by spike jones and by um michel gondry right yeah getting all excited now yeah definitely gonna have to watch that documentary There was a band that we, I don't know if you're familiar with the band Sparkle Horse. They were from way back, right? So they were a band that actually, they joined forces with all these directors to make videos for their album.

And that was our, that was our entire episode was like all these, Danny Clinch was a big music photographer. He made a video, one of the band members made a video, the brothers quay. I don't know if you know the brothers quay. Do not know the brothers quay. There are these experimental filmmakers who work with puppets, that's all I'm going to say. Okay. Very interesting. Like stop motion.

And it was really cool because, you know, the music guided these little films. And so, and Sparkle Horse's music is really very cinematic and very, very, it gives a lot of room for breath and for, visual so your imagination starts to kind of go awry when you think of like that music so i you know when i'm like hunkered down with a band and i've filmed with like dave matthew's band for many occasions and fish and um i just kind of like really sort of feel like i'm part of it in a way it's like i'm another if i'm on stage i feel like i'm like a kind of another instrument in a strange odd way. I'm not making music, but I'm part of it in some way, shape, or form. And so it starts to affect the way I shoot. I notice, like, when you start to spend time with musicians, you kind of

know when you want to go down to their guitar, because they're going to do a solo, and then you're going to want to sort of make your way up the neck of the guitar, and then sort of triangle back up to their face and get back. And it just becomes like this thing, you know? And I got to do a lot of that when I'm in the studio with artists. And I love it. It's so. much fun to do. And Billy's just, I couldn't resist not wanting to jump when I would be filming her. Because I'm, the, not just from her performance, but the reaction from the crowd that she's playing to was just like, oh, it was, it was such a rush, you know. So yeah, I hope that answers your question. But Sonic Cinema was like literally very much what you're speaking to,

because that was a whole series I did so uh no I literally you just jazzed me up for like now we can go for another hour I just picked up that uh watch some spike Jones videos so Spike Jones spike Jones inspired me in such a big way when I was a kid and not for the reason that everyone says so like I literally last week was able to pick up that Spike Jones Michelle Gondry um um whoever the third guy is I'm really blowing this but that DVD set of like all of their yeah yeah uh which people who went to film school before me were like this was our Bible and I was just never able to pick it up my friend my friend Trent just was like man I've got two copies of that it's easy to find I was like screw you man it's like

$200 um but so spike Jones uh I kept going I grew up you know early 90s it was a lot of like skateboard films and stuff like that jackass comes out and while I'm enjoying all of that I'm watching all these other movies and stuff that I like. And then one day as I started to get into film, I realized he was the linchpin for like all of that work. And it blew my fucking mind. Because like I didn't realize you could make jackass and being John Malkovich. Sophia Coppola, even though she,

I don't know if she's done music videos, but her films always feel very musical to me too. She also has incredible taste of music. So, you know, I think certain filmmakers just choose to use music that's very cinematic. You know, they use air, like band air. They use like, you know, I don't know. There's just, I could go on about it.

Well, and I think that goes back to the flow state thing you were talking about, working with musicians and being in that environment and kind of embodying it. There was a quote I just heard from John Mayer. He was talking about fonts, but I like the idea of your brain doesn't know, but your heart will. Yeah. You know, he was talking about

using free fonts on album covers. He's like, don't fucking send me a free font because I'll know. But it's true. Like, there's certain things

that you can't articulate that only happen in the moment that make the project better. And I've started to realize as I've done these interviews that like there's certain, you know,

I was asking the internet. Like, what kind of questions would you ask if you had this opportunity to interview all these DPs? And at a certain point, there's a lot of gear questions, but at a certain point, they start going like, well, what was the thing that took you to the next level? What was, you know, they want what I would call expert tutorials. And it's like once you're an expert, I feel like it's that flow state you're talking about.

It's not something you teach people. It's not calculated. And it isn't something you can teach, you know, it's so funny. If someone said to me right now, I want to choose. documentary films. What film school should I go to?

I would probably say to them I don't I'm not saying don't go to film school but if maybe double major study film but also major in anthropology. That would be my best

suggestion because you know or psychology or sociology whatever. Or business. Well, that's if you want to make money, which, you know, documentaries is not known for being, you know. But, you know, I think, I think it's about, and again, it goes back to things you can't teach. Like, are you a curious person?

Do you, are you a people person? Like, are you patient? I'm not patient. My husband can attest to this. I'm not patient in my normal life at home as a domestic partner. But I'm really patient when it comes to filming people. And I think you have to give people room and space to just be. You know, it's important to be someone that people can feel comfortable around, right?

That's just something you have. You either have it or you don't. You can't train to be someone who people feel comfortable around. You either have it, right? Or some, but I could say curiosity and patience and compassion and empathy. you know, these are all things you need. And confidence, I think, is big. Confidence, yes, as a director and as a cinematographer,

confidence is imperative because your crew needs to feel like, you know, as if you're a director, obviously your crew needs to feel like they're in good hands and, you know, there's some focus and there's a, you know, there's a path that we're taking here and a vision. And then I also think as a cinematographer, for your directors counting on you to get the goods, you know? There's not just, especially in documentaries now, it's like it's not just get this unbelievable compelling scene,

but we're shooting with the same, often the same cameras that they're using in narrative fiction films. And so like we're some, you know, we're filming and we're having to like make it look gorgeous. And it's also like someone is in this incredibly insane situation and we're filming it, you know. So there's a lot of pressure to come. kind of be present.

And that's, those are all things that I think you can't really teach necessarily. I think it has to just come from life experience. Would you agree that I think this is the secret to confidence is that confidence is not something you feel. It's something you ignore. Like the best way that I have found to describe. how to be confident for myself was like it's when you stop question it's when you agree to stop questioning yourself yes no one you go into you go into war with an 80% plan at best yeah so

just yeah you know no i think for me the confidence as a dp came when i wasn't so nervous to watch my footage back you know there came a point where I, for many years, like, I would, you know, I'd do a shoot and I was always like waiting for the phone call from post or something like, Jenna, you know. And let me say right off the bat that so much of my education as a documentary cinematographer, particularly in Veritas filmmaking, comes from editors. Because if you're not supplying the goods to them, they will tell you if they're a good, honest editor and they want you to learn and they want to help you out. And so I've learned so much from editors over the years, particularly an editor named Annet Citi, who's this incredible doc.

She's edited recently. No, wait, she's done like, almost she did Jesus Camp for starters, which I shot on. And she did, there's my male person. Hi. Sorry. And then she did many of Heidi Rachel's films. I think she did detropia and she did, I think she worked on, I'm not, to name a few.

She has an IMDB. She has an IMDB if you want to check her out. She's incredible. But, you know, really, I learned so much from editors. And I think the moment for me was like when I started to be like, I felt good about what I shot. I was happy with my composition. I was happy with my dedication to what I was shooting. And I'm not worried about post-calling anymore.

Or I'm not, like, needing to go in the car on the lunch break and play back my footage, watch it, you know? Like, those were the early days. And now I'm like, okay, I felt good about it. Or, or you know what? It was a day that wasn't great. There was some snafus either just in human life or technically happening, whatever it is, you know. And just more accepting of it.

Like, okay, fine. And maybe that's just me being older now, too. I just let stuff go and just get hung up on anything anymore. Yeah. Well, and that I think that speaks to obviously like you're saying experience, but speaking to jackass, one thing that Johnny Knoxville said that I really appreciated was if you're not failing, you're not trying hard enough. Yeah. Failing's part of it. Yes. You know, you don't start off with a riproaring real day one. You know, you got to build it. You have to build it. You have to build. It's so many things. Yeah. And you have to be okay with where you're at. You know, there's. There's always that saying, you're only as good as your last gig. And I truly believe that, you know, it's not to say that the work I did 10 years or five years ago,

there's been great projects and, but I think that it really calls upon you to just, it's so different, it's like you're such a camellions, especially in documentary. I've shot in so many different environments, but environments where people have been abused, environments where people have been, you know things like billy stuff you know like people who are celebrating life and performing and you know but i've been in in situations that are dark really dark and it's um it's you learn how to adapt and to just kind of um bear witness to what you're what's in front of you and just approach it with the the most compassion and sympathy and empathy and um sensitivity that you

you can, you know? That's all you can do. That's all the other humans expect of you. And so I, that's why I strangely think it's just not for everybody. Not everyone wants to go into a foreign country and into an area that's, you know, has violence or history of violence or, you know, devastation in some way.

It's not, it's not for everyone. So I think the few that decide to do it are crazy enough to do it. And they do it because they love it. You know, they do it because they love the work. So I like to wrap up every podcast asking the same things. I've learned not to put the second one in the first question. What everyday thing, whether it be an item or a life change or whatever, have you adopted in your life that has made you a better cinematographer?

Oh, wow. Trying to listen as much as I can. It's just keeping the muscle of listening going, you know, trying to listen to my children, trying to listen to my husband, trying to listen to my family. Listening is really important, I feel like, and particularly in the type of work that I do with documentaries because it's so much about listening and just being present for

whoever you're filming. I think I'm so inspired. I mean, I honestly, I watch movies. I watch, I do yoga to keep my back in good health because that's imperative. But I also watch films and I watch, I watch fiction, I watch nonfiction, I watch it all. I, because I get so much inspiration from my fellow storytellers out there. And so I try, I don't watch every day, it's hard often, but I watch anytime I feel like I have the energy and I want to, I want to watch something. And I always, I don't waste my time on any more like guilty pleasures, although I do have some guilty pleasures.

I really try and spend the time like watching a doc that I, someone told me it was like, you need to see this movie or, oh, this series is amazing, you know, this fiction series or whatever. So just try to keep watching. yeah i actually this year i started the uh movie a day challenge for myself and uh yeah immediately i i'm already like 20 films behind uh over the weekend i did like four a day nice oh that's good there you go yeah but there were a lot of guilty pleasures thrown in there i figure i'm going to front load all those and then eat the vegetables later there you criteria and just had a 50% off sale so i bought a crap ton of those blurways nice nice charian's got good stuff well and it's their lineup is basically like,

it's better if you don't know what it is. Yeah. You know, oh, they've got, it's not this, but like, oh, they've got Oceans 12. What's house? You know? Oh, my God. Yeah, so to final question,

is there anything you want to promote besides, obviously, the documentary? Is there any personal projects you're working on that you're excited about? You know, I have a few things in the mix. can't really. There's really great projects that are coming, but I can't talk about them right now because they haven't been really released. But I am, you know, I, I not particularly want to promote anything. I just, I think I really want to just keep doing what I do. I love what I do. I honestly, I'm so grateful for the fact that I have a body that allows me to do my job. I'm not, you know, I'm not sick. I'm healthy. I'm able to get out there. And I just love it. I love, love how much people embrace documentaries now. I really do. I'm so loving the way people embrace films. And I'm loving the way people embrace this movie because this movie is, it kind of relates to everybody. It's relatable. There is something I think that each and every person can connect to.

Totally. That I'm grateful for. And I'll say as, you know, the resident metal head, like you don't, I actually do like Billy Ilish's music, but you don't have to enjoy her music to enjoy the film necessarily. It's not, it's definitely a, although, man, having, being able to edit with those tunes, that's got to be a blessing. Yeah. Oh, what are we going to put here? Pick one of her songs. Yeah. Well, and I don't know really just, I know where to go, but I, the thing that I love about the movie so much,

and it was RJ's intention. He said it very early on. He goes, this is going to be a musical. I was like, a musical. And it really is a musical. If you really pay attention to the songs that follow certain scenes, they really tie in, you know, in terms of her story. It's like the songs are written for these scenes,

even though they were written far before. Because the songs are written for her life. They're a reflection of her life and her, you know, what she's been through and what Phineas and she have created together, you know. Yeah. It's really special. So I hope more and more people see it. And I've already, you know, been hearing tons of feedback from many friends and family have seen it. And they love it. Like people who you wouldn't think would connect to Billy Eilish, they do. She's that. She's just universal in that way. And that's what's, I think, pretty awesome about the film itself. So. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for spending this past hour. I really enjoyed this conversation. Nice. And yeah, hopefully we can have you on again, talk about something. something else. Yeah, for sure. I would love it. Thank you, Kenny. I appreciate it. Yeah.

All right. Well, uh, take care. All right. Take care. Frame and reference is an Owlbot production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. Our theme song is written and performed by Mark Pelly, and the Ethad Art Mapbox logo was designed by Nate Trurax of Trax branding company. You can read or watch the podcast you've just heard by going to Providiocolleion.com or YouTube.com slash Owobot, respectively. And as always, thanks for listening.