Frame & Reference Podcast - 140: "The Gutter" DP Veronica Bouza

Episode Date: May 2, 2024

Today I'm privileged to have Veronica Bouza on the program to talk about her work on the new film "The Gutter"! Veronica is a Director of Photography originally from Los Angeles, California, whose work spans narrative, commercial, and documentary. She moved up the ranks through crewing as an IATSE 476 electrician and an IATSE 600 camera assistant and received her MFA from the American Film Institute. Veronica’s AFI thesis, “We Were Meant To,” premiered at Sundance 2023. Veronica’s narrative work has been an official selection at Sundance, Tribeca, BAFTA, SXSW, and Slamdance Film Festival. She lensed projects in Seasons 2 and 3 of Indeed’s Rising Voices program, which both screened at Tribeca. Her short "Pens and Pencils" is currently streaming on Max, and she shot a pilot for Warner Media called Remember.  Most recently, Veronica finished principal photography on an independent feature called Grassland starring Mia Maestro (Motorcycle Diaries) and Quincy Isaiah (Winning Time). Her debut feature, The Gutter, premiered at SXSW 2024, starring Shameik Moore (Spider-Verse) and Susan Sarandon.     Veronica was named American Cinematographer's 2022 Rising Stars of Cinematography. Enjoy! Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.frameandrefpod.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for everything F&R You can directly support Frame & Reference by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Buying Me a Coffee⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coast's leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠⁠Filmtools.com⁠⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and you're listening to Episode 140 with Veronica Bousa, DP of The Gutter. Enjoy. have you been watching anything cool or isn't or you've just been working like crazy um it's it's kind of a mix of both i've been actually interviewing a lot so i feel like i've been doing like a lot of reading and then i've been like looking up projects that are kind of related to that project so i feel like i haven't watched anything like for fun but i'm seeing monkey man tonight so i'm really excited that looks cool because that looks amazing yeah but yeah

It's funny. It's always that balance, like, out of the DPD of, like, what do you watch you get home? Like, half a time I just want to say sign both. But then other times, it's like a very, like, work-centric meeting. And you're like, oh, okay, I'm watching show again, which I do love. And then I'm more like kind of breaking that down. So that balance. It's, it's funny. I feel like all DPs should say like, oh, yeah, I just have Criterion Channel going 24-7. It's like, no. I got home and watched Friends for two hours. Or I guess that's only... Well, the thing is like, you're tired. Like, you've been thinking so much all day and, like, everyone else, if you kind of want to shut off your brain. And then, of course, that part of you is always, like, over-analysis things.

So it's nice to watch Friends. Yeah. You know, it's like, it's a guarantee. Like, I'm not allowed. I have a hard time getting into shows that have, like, 40 seasons. yeah I you know what it's super funny now that you're saying it I went on like a binge that was taking shows that have lived like 40 seasons and I just watched the first season or I just watched that like pivotal season and then I'm done and people always ask like cheers for example like I only watched the first season and people will ask me questions about like the rest of the show and like I can't that's too dangerous I'm not opening up that can't warns I've already saw the first season I'm done. For me, that's funny.

I, for some reason, I don't know if this is true with all shows. And if it is, it pisses me off that Netflix always cancels it after the third season. But, like, Star Trek is the one that I remember. Like, the third season of every Star Trek is where they really hit their stride. And it gets, like, super interesting. The first two, they're always trying to find it. So whatever you're like, should I get in? I'm like, yeah, you should watch TNG or D-Space 9 and just jump to the third.

Maybe watch the first two episodes to know who's who. and then just straight to the third season. Well, I mean, I feel like we're in that age where you could just go online and I feel like with every show I watch, I tend to just go on YouTube and like do the recount video to like, oh, what were the secret hidden things

in that episode? I'm like, wow, why can't I just like watch an episode? No, I have to like watch the aftermath of the episode and like really dive in story-wise and figure out what was happening. it is like even what was it the one I was just watched um three body problem like I loved that and then and then I go online and there's all the people who've read the books and stuff and I'm just like God like I am a little upset that we can't like especially for a show let's put it yeah let's put it all in there like at least the stuff that matters like I don't need to it's so annoying to have to go on Reddit and have some 20 year old described to be like all the important stuff that I should have had context for and I'm like is this like the marvel vacation of it all you know like the Marvel TV shows come out and they're like oh you had to see a all those to get what's going on in end game two or whatever and I'm like you're like well I have no chance yeah like I literally just put on that ducks and I'm ready to do yeah there's a lot man uh I'm speaking of like Android and Apple Apple TV all like I don't know what is in the water over

there but they just seem to be hitting nonstop like good production values but also just like great shows that they don't even advertise like criminal record I just interviewed the DP from criminal record which I literally was just watching and I I go, I love Peter Cabaldi, but I was like, this is great. And then I just DMed at the TV. I'm like, you want to talk to you about it? He goes, yeah, okay. But I never saw an ad for it.

Like, it's a sick show. It's funny. I, yeah, I don't really see ads for Apple TV. Like, I have to make an effort to go on Apple TV. But then when I do, I have a great time. Yeah. But it doesn't have as much like attraction or like you see all the advertisement for a show. So it's, it's interesting how we're like forced or.

to looking at certain things, and you're like, oh, yeah, what about that over there? Well, it's like, I kind of wish, like, this, I'm just picking this because there's a billboard by my house, but like damsel, right? You've got, uh, what's her name? I think I know, I think I know where this billboard is. Oh, I have this billboard.

It's like a upsets. Oh, no, I'm on the west side, so they've got a couple of them. But, um, but, uh, it's like, I wish they would spend more time advertising. the stuff that isn't you just say like hey this is like shot by these cool people that you already know with someone you already know in it like that could just be a that Instagram ad like put the shows that no one knows about on the billboards so they get a better shot so we're not canceling stuff like no one saw it's like no what knew about it oh yeah

no it's it's it's super tough because I feel like sometimes especially when you're working in the industry like you're in your own bubble you feel like things are super popular, but then you kind of leave that. And you're like, no one knows their show. No one knows this movie. I just hang out with the same 10 people who keep talking about the same project. Or they're like, they're all working on that project. I'm like, oh, I'll work on this project.

That is the one nice thing about living in L.A. is like even if they're not industry folks, you can all kind of talk, not that it's fun to nonstop talk about work, but like it's still, you know, I got into the gig because I like the medium. I like the art form. And so it's nice when you can talk to, like, other people. Like me and my girlfriend were at my buddy's wedding in Whitefish, Montana a couple years ago. And it was like the summer.

So there was no one there. So there was just one outdoor bar that was open that basically everyone in town went to, which was like 40 people. And it was just funny talking to them about like stuff that I had seen or whatever. They're like, we got King of the Hill. And you're like, that's great. I love that for you. Have you gone to a theater? they're like, nah, I don't do that.

Oh, of course. Now, it's, that's why I always love, like, shooting in different locations, because I feel like you just get immersed into that location. Or, like, I did a movie last year in New Jersey, and we were in Montclair. It was, like, pretty small town. But there was, like, only one theater. Like, the closest other, like, big AMC was, like, pretty far away.

But it was fun just going to that mom-and-pop theater. Like, kind of uncomfortable, like, seating one. But it was a great experience. I grew up in Napa Valley. But I wasn't in Napa proper. I was in this town called San Alina. There was only 5,000 people that had tiny. And we had one theater in Napa and one in Santa Rosa.

And the Napa one was just like it was like a eight screen just not great. But not terrible. But I went back and visited a couple years ago and they now have this like Cinemark XD. like they like bulldozed the whole part of town just to put this massive theater in and it's so funny because all of Napa is just like vineyards and buildings from like the early 1900s and then this giant white box off the freeway oh my god well I guess they care because it's a nice it's a nice theater it's it's kind of crazy it's like once you go to like one of those nice theaters and like especially if you're seeing a movie right you know maybe you're not like really interested in who it is so comfortable it's like wow we've really elevated the experience here just to make sure I'll really enjoy either I don't enjoy well that that's been the thing I've been saying for a while now not that anyone's listening to me but like if you want people to go back into the theaters like make the theater experience

better like the Century City mall that AMC is amazing like all the screens are great the audio's great I went to the um a dip I can't remember where and but like I could tell the center channel was out so all the dialogue was super quiet and I'm like looking around like should I say something and my friend my girlfriend specifically was like I can't what do you mean I was like you can't hear how muffled the center channel she goes I don't even know what you're talking about and I was like I god it bugged me for so long because I'm now sitting here going maybe we should have subtitles yeah well it's oh yeah well I feel like at home, there's certain shows or I just have to call them the subtitles.

I don't. I can't. Like, I need it because I'm going to miss, like, half of things. It's a weird thing that started happening where, like, everyone needs something. And people want to say it's because stuff's mixed bad, but part of me thinks it's just because you're watching on TV speaker, not you, but like people are just watching on TV speakers, which are notoriously bad, which also, like, TV manufacturers need to figure. I shouldn't, the customer shouldn't have to buy a sound bar or whatever, the surround sounds. system to like experience like the fact that they're just focused on displays is kind of the same thing with theater like let's class it up a little bit so that the experience for the customer is a little better um but it's hard because like i'm always thinking of you know as a filmmaker i'm like i want to focus on the acting and it's hard to like do this move you know all right what's the are they crying all right back to the dialogue back what are they doing okay back you know personally i find that difficult but i'm also stuck in my ways i suppose now you're in there you're good the i was i was looking uh stuff up about you because i'm a journalist

and uh yeah doing a little research uh you're from here but you went to school in chicago i did yeah um that you know i think people nowadays think of uh filmmaking being all l a new york and now atlanta but chicago has a huge film like history you know not just uh what's his face breakfast club, but like, Chicago's always been like a film hub. Was that like part of your decision to go there? Or did that help you in any way when you were in undergrad? I mean, it definitely helped. But I think for me, just growing up in L.A.

and, you know, all my family is here, it's really nice to just kind of go somewhere else and just try something new. So what I love about Chicago is you have that like Midwestern hospitality. Like, everyone's just really nice. And to be in a city where you can kind of walk everywhere or you can just ride your bike, public transportation is actually awesome. Right. The, let's say the least. So on, met.

Mine is, minus the weather. Obviously, the weather was a little rough. You know, I had to learn what layers were. Right. That was like, you got that D.P. Puffy early. No, it was like, wow, but, like, getting, like, outfits that actually were. functional like forget like having my half-house sweater or like pants like no no I need to be warm so I think just moving to Chicago was a good way of just kind of growing up and kind of being

a way for everything I knew and it was nice I ended up like right out of film school I worked on all the shows out there just because like it's it's definitely a growing network but it's not that So it's pretty easy to like jump on shows and I worked. I was like a nutrition out there. I did a lot of those like Dick Wolf shows. Nice. And just a lot of like procedural, which is fun. So you just like you get in the routine of like just the day to day.

Mine is winter. It was honestly one of my favorite times ever. Yeah. So right before we got on like 15 minutes before we got on, I was talking to my Michael Chione, who he started light iron frame my other now, this company Strata. And a lot of our conversation was about AI, because that's his new, not generative AI, the like workflow AI, you know, tagging things and searching. But one thing we were talking a lot about was like iteration. And that's something I was, it's just kismet that I can kind of talk to you about this because you've worked on, like you were saying, those types of shows, procedures and stuff like that, but also you've done now a lot of

documentary and commercials and I was wondering like what does iteration look like in those two different environments to you because obviously on a procedural I or even just any again those like 40 season shows they're they are very reticent to change anything with the workflow let alone like lighting and stuff I've I can't remember who I was interviewed but they were like oh yeah we were stuck on like the F23 I think it was like Bridgeton they were like on the F23 forever because they just didn't they're like let's not fuck with success here you know Also, yeah, no, I mean, now is a really big thing because, like, so I worked in Chicago as an electrician, but then I came back to L.A. and I worked as a camera assistant. And I did shows like Jane the Virgin and, like, Brooklyn Nine Nine and Major Crimes. And a lot of those shows, like, we would just do the same things that they would do every season long. Or even, like, a lot of my friends that worked on Jane the Virgin, they all did Desper Housewives. It was like literally that crew jumped on to do Jane the Virgin.

And they were all doing everything like exactly the same. And like they kind of through that repetition, it made me want to just go shoot. Like I really wanted to just go do something creative and kind of break that norm of. It's like the closest thing of having a nine to five job in our industry. And it was really nice going. to AFI and kind of starting over with my career and then obviously like leaving AFI and like trying to figure out that next stage of my career I really stumbled into like the short films the commercials and then obviously like the docs and then at times like when you're shooting

docs like it could just be you and like one other person and it's like kind of that fight or flight mode of like how are we going to tell the story to the best of our ability so it's it's It's fun. I definitely, between different projects, I kind of balance that big scale life to, like, back with your friends. So, fun. Was there on those bigger shows, or like the longer form ones, not longer form, but, you know, the ones that go forever? Did you learn anything from those experiences that had been polished up and didn't need iteration that you applied to, like, the smaller indie gigs or, dock gigs or whatever. For sure. I mean, I think the big thing when you're on a bigger show, it's organization. Like everyone, even though you have so many people, like everyone has a role

and it's because you do the same thing every day, it makes it so easy to be. So a lot of times I'm going to my smaller jobs. It's really trying to find ways to kind of build that sense of organization, even if it's like, all right, I'm doing these three jobs. jobs and now you're doing these two jobs. I think as I was a camera assistant for so long, I became very OCD of like, we should organize like this, there's the mess. The, uh, what were some of those camera assistant things that, uh, made you a better DP or that you, you've instilled in your ACs now? Um, it's, it's funny. I feel like when you work as an AC, it typically is just like you and another system kind of

and you kind of build that sense of mentorship just really training under one person or it's like one person right underneath you and I think for me especially going into a lot of my other projects, my more independent projects is kind of figuring out that personality of like who is my AC and like what do they need to thrive or like a lot of times like on kind of a different tangent like I feel like I'm able

to adapt more especially when the camera isn't built correctly or it's like we don't have all the tools we need I'm able to kind of adapt a little quicker yeah the this is something I'm trying to get better at with these interviews which is asking about the straight up not pretty I suppose like leadership position as being a department head, like being a DP. Were there any kind of challenges when you made the switch or did that, you know, gaffing, electrician, AC thing kind of and give you the tools to just kind of straight out of the gate be a better leader? Well, I mean, I think it's, I mean, it's definitely, it's definitely a hard one.

I think when I decided to start shooting, I think the hardest thing I started encountering was I couldn't go back. Like a lot of the people I used to work with now considered me a DP. And then with that, I didn't have anything to kind of fall back on. You know, because like a lot of times you're trying to move up and you're like, well, I kind of need help you. Or it's like I kind of need a paycheck. So it was a very hard truth of like, hey, now I have literally nothing to fall back on. So it's like, I have to make sure every project I shoot counts. And that meant, you know, really listening and really collaborating with people.

So it was more really about just kind of building relationships with other filmmakers. And that was going to be my ticket to slowly getting back to bigger jobs. But yeah, I feel like the idea of leadership is like, it kind of evolves, like, as you move from project to project. I don't feel like there's ever like a point where you're like, oh my God, like a great leader. It's more of like there's a moment where you kind of feel responsible for everyone that's working underneath you. And you're just doing whatever you can to make sure they're set up for success. And at times, especially in my lower budgets, it'll be like, hey, I'll cut my pay to make sure they have what they need to, you know, kind of went forward. Yeah.

There was something that you had mentioned. Actually, the, all right, so one thing about this podcast is I jump around a lot. Oh, you're good. Narva still is like such rapid fire. And I, I like, because I feel like my last few interviews that I've done had been like, so like it's it's it's very much about the gutter and like the specifics like we did this we did this right where you're asking you a thing and i'm like okay i'm ready for it perfect uh well the other thing too is i couldn't get a screener for the gutter so i can't even ask about specific things

anyway uh but that's happened every time they email me about like hey do you want to interview south by southwest people or do you want to interview you know what any other festival i'm like yeah can i get a screener and they're usually like nope like cool well yeah i mean like it's uh it's definitely been a top one just because like that that project like we shot in 22 and that was my debut feature and then it's just been in post for so long and you know i mean this is the conversation in itself but the idea of getting a feature and then getting another feature is like you need to have a feature to get a feature right now so it was kind of tough like how

having that in my back pocket for so long. And you're just kind of opening up other avenues of like, okay, well, it don't this, this and this. Like, would that work? And they're like, I don't know. You're like, you're telling me. So it ends up you have to interview like a lot more for a project. Right.

Well, the thing I wanted to ask, because I had heard in an interview from a while ago podcast, and you had just mentioned it recently, the idea of wanting to get out and shoot and kind of do more creative stuff and I was wondering if you could hone in on that a little bit because something I'm finding

with younger filmmakers now is a and I certainly did this but it feels more prevalent now is this addiction to gear and aesthetics and almost completely devoiding themselves of the artistic element

and I mean that as like being an artist, like taking on that sort of, I suppose, lifestyle and thinking like an artist. And so, yeah, I was wondering kind of if you could elucidate what you meant by doing creative stuff. Because many would think, like, oh, you were on a bunch of TV shows, that's creative, you know. Yeah. I mean, I think it's, it was more of kind of building my, building my career. as a DP and the best way to do that was to actually like start back down the ground zero which is super tough especially like the older you are and the more established you are at times like in the industry it's pretty tough to kind of saying no to the paying job and try to pick jobs that fulfill you creatively that I was to commercially yeah And I think it kind of, it's more of like taking a work in the mirror and figuring out at the end of the day, what kind of projects do you want representing you?

You know, because at times, your projects are going to speak for you as well as that's your name on those projects. So I think I wanted to kind of reset my world and I wanted to kind of figure out how. I can be a better storyteller. And I think by going to AFI, I really helped a lot. All the AFI grads on this pod seem to just immediately jump off into doing dope shit. Like, that place seems to be a wonderful option if you can get it. Yeah, I mean, I highly recommend it or just even the idea of grad school, because it's like, grad school is like, all right, I'm going back again.

Like, I've already done school, but now I'm going back again with a mission. And I think being in that environment with other filmmakers that were in that same boat of that kind of quarter-life crisis, you're able to kind of, what do you call it? I was going to kill me. What is the trauma bomb? Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In a way.

And I think, honestly, through those years of, making shorts, just to make shorts again, it kind of revived the love of filmmaking for me. I think I kind of lost it when I was working on TV shows, and it was all about the paycheck, and it's just like, okay, who am I working with? But now every time I'm like booking a project, I'm so excited for those projects. Like there's just like a new level of energy that kind of comes into it. just because I get to kind of create it from the ground zero. Yeah.

Well, and kind of what spurred that thought was when you were saying, like, oh, I'll take a pay cut to make sure the project is good. And I think especially when you're starting, I've certainly run into this where it's like, even if it's a sick project, like a lot of times you need that extra. Even if it's like 200 bucks, like you're like, fuck, I can't take a haircut on this. Like one of the things that I don't recommend to anyone, but something that I was privileged enough to do is like I have a decent amount of gear

so I can rent that out and then if I to like on the project that I'm shooting sound equipment I mean literally a whole bunch of random shit and then they can't afford that I will just not charge them for that gear I already own it I don't care and then I can at least keep my day rate

stable and then just like all right well we'll just make it look good because I don't need to nickel and dine someone over a lens you know if that's just going to annoy them and not make the project good. I mean, I think honestly a big thing with that, though, is like really picking and choosing res projects and understanding, like, who do invests that relationship with

and, like, those favors. Especially for those, like, short films, like, a lot of times we'll pull favors for camera or lighting gear for crew and the people that, or I found, like, my directors that treated the rest of the crew with the time. ton of respect. Like, that crew has come back on like project after project. And it's like a cool little family that keeps building with every bigger project we get. It's nice to go back down to that scale. And it was funny. Even that, like, when I was at AO5, it was like my first film

project, they call it like a visual essay. I brought out a lot of my friends from major crimes, like all the TV show. That's cheating. That's cheating. I know. It's all I'm cheating. But it was funny because they were so excited to see me in that leader role. Like to see their faces.

And also they treated me like a DP. Like you would have thought like I've known these people for 10 plus years. Like they literally call me Little Bear. Like I was just always that kid on set. and for them to come out to operate for me to pee for me like in mental world and they were so happy to be there even though it was like a free project so it was a nice kind of like full circle moment to see all these people that you respected come do a solid for you yeah do you uh this is something that i was thinking about recently uh just personally which is i have like a little list i've made of like depending on the the budget like what are the most important crew you know and like who can you not like one of it was always like crafty has to be like no matter what like if you fucking order pizza i swear to god i'm gonna pull your head off um yeah but i was wondering you know bouncing around like

bigger projects smaller projects and all that like is there like a optimum crew size they're like what are like the positions that you think like need to be on every shoot because certainly like you can get something that just balloons where you're shooting a two person thing at a cafe and there's 400 people on set and you're just like this is this is slowing us down or conversely you know you're on a small shoot and you just everyone's wearing too many hats everyone's stressed out and it's not moving effectively you know it's it's funny because i feel like i have to balance that a lot where you're doing like a small project for a friend and it's like i mean like it literally just can't be you and me like there has to be

at least a gaffer, a key, like at least a three-person lighting team and a focus polar. That's like the bare minimum for the smaller projects. And then I definitely owed them a job after that. I don't really feel bad. Like I'm like, wow, I'm so sorry for like that small of a crew. And then on like the other side of the world, it's honestly figuring the world kind of what you're shooting and to what degree. will kind of determine how many people you need. And then I've also found is, who is your director and, like, who are your producers?

Because sometimes I work with directors who, you know, they want to see, like, a lot of people. Like, I've done a lot of them. I've done commercial stuff, but, like, we just want to make it. We want it to look busy. For the client? Yes, for the client. I actually, I had a job last year where we had to do something like that. And I was like, sure.

We need two mad boxes on that camera. Just please. Like that level of stuff. I mean, I think it obviously depends on like the budget and scale, but it really comes down to what we're shooting. It's like if we're shooting just a single person in a bedroom, like you don't need the craziest crew ever. You know, it's like that's when you can go back to base. It's not like how skimpy my first crew was, but like, you know, a reasonable three on three on both sides for lighting and kind of both cameras. Yeah, that that is such an interesting line you have to tow with the like it's not always a client, but there's always like someone you're trying to impress with stupid shit.

Like I know the common one is just like, oh, if I walk at me and Mike, we're just talking about this. you know, you walk on to set with whatever, a DSLR, and you know, an FX3, whatever, and you know it's going to look good. But then someone, you have to impress somebody, so you end up putting all this random gag on it just to make it look. Or you bring in a big camera just even though it's more expensive to rent, you're like, but they'll be happy if they see big camera. And it's maybe the workflow is worse.

It's such an interesting, like, it's really about figuring out who is, your group of collaborators you know like sometimes it is about the camera but it is about kind of fulfilling a dream or being on a bigger job and then others are like I want to strip record everything and I just want to be new and me in the actor and the room so it's it's kind of fun having to reinvent the wheel every because you never involve with each project kind of where you're going to go, what tools you're going to use, or it's funny. There's a lot of times where it's like, I would love to have a dolly, but instead I'm on rolling spreaders and a slider. And we're like adding more to the slider, but it's little right. So it's like you're kind of finding ways

to make the dollar go a lot farther than it really does. Yeah. Well, it's a customer service thing too, right? Like a lot of my friends and like my old roommate who I mentioned a lot owns bars. I'd shoot stuff for this cocktail group called Death & Co. Actually, this is Jack. Oh, right. I'm then

wanting to go to Death and Co. It's so good. Dog, whenever you, like, literally let me know, we were just there a couple days ago. Like, let me know, we'll go. Okay, we're going to, we're going to sidebar. Yeah. I do really want to go. Okay. It's, yeah, it's actually, this is kind of a great sidebar.

The thing I love about, first of all, the food, the drinks are the best you'll have, right? They're not horrifically expensive. Obviously, nowadays, things have kind of gotten more expensive in general. But a little pricier than average. But the thing that they nail is customer service. It's going there feels effortless. Like, they just, their attention to detail is so specific. And they've built it into their company,

Like you don't get hired there unless you buy into their core values, as they call them. They work with that part of the- Gotcha. And so they do great at hiring and they instill this working, this idea of working to code not to, I mean, yes, to make their product better, their experience better, but it's all customer-focused. And, you know, there's this book, I don't know if they go off this book, but there's this book called Unreasonable Hospitality. Um, which actually, did you see the second season of the bear? Of course. So you know that?

I'll go on the show. You know the episode where cousin goes to the fancy restaurant and meets Olivia Coleman? Mm-hmm. So that restaurant is a visual representation of that book. Apparently the, the bar owner or the restaurant tour, the chef, whoever was, um, someone was like, oh, yeah, I think the restaurant was in New York. And they were like, we were planning on going to the beach. but there's like a tornado or something

so we came here or they you know they were telling him on the phone or something so he put sand in the entire restaurant no like unreasonable hospitality right and I and I'm just fascinated by that idea

and I love stealing from other things like the business consultant that death and co uses is how I got actually that's how I got introduced to the business consultant was through death and co But this system called EOS, which is just about business management, or like this dude, Jocko writes his thing about leadership and running teams and stuff.

And I just love stealing from other industries and trying to figure out how to make it film-centric. I mean, but you're totally right. I mean, a lot of times, I feel like being a DP, you are this like hospitality meets therapist. I don't know why. you're you're kind of taking everyone's kind of thoughts and concerns and you're kind of helping alleviate some of the pain or the stress so it ever means well and it's the it's the thing they don't teach you in film at least not maybe at a if i but then at arizona state film school in 2009 they did not teach us it's it's one of those things of like once you do then you start

to experience it and you're like okay like How could I have been better in that situation? Or maybe I work better with certain personalities. And I think that's what film school or just some of those earlier projects are for is being in a space where you can work with different people very quickly and kind of build a foundation of what you need to thrive. You know, I definitely like I work with people that need, like, they either need like a lot of attention.

or I'll work with someone who's just really artistic and then they don't know the technical side. It's kind of like as a DP, you kind of fill in the blanks more than that. Yeah. Well, and it's like trying to find everyone's strengths and lean into them versus trying to make them do something they're not like accustomed to, I guess.

Yes, 100%. Yeah. Let's see. I have notes here. Oh, this is something. something completely. Again, we're bouncing all over the place. Here we go. For whatever reason, a lot of DPs

love architecture, and I guess you dodged that bullet. I do love, I do love architecture, but it's so close to home for me. Right. Because it's like your family, right? It's really my whole family. But with my parents and my sister architects and

like either our family text chain it's half the time I like most of the time I get the jokes but then there's times where it's so specific but I think what has been a lot of fun is by jumping into

film my family has never been more excited for me like it's so close to what they do but also so far away but yeah we look at buildings a lot and we'll look at lighting and my dad just has a ton of architecture books just like a huge library and it's always really fun to kind of go through books and kind of look at how light kind of goes through spaces yeah is there I guess that's like the main lesson you can take from architecture right is just like how light interacts with rooms and looks good because that's like the whole that's half to battle with it I don't know shit about about architecture, but like, I assume that's half the battle is, like, I know, what's his name?

The super famous one, Bay Area, mostly, or like California, Frank Lloyd Wright. Like, he's always, like, angling, I assume they all do this, but that's the only one I know. You know, always angling buildings so that the sun at certain times, like, creates patterns and stuff like that. Like, did you, was any of that knowledge instilled into you that kind of, like, informed the way you light spaces? I mean, I would say a bit to a degree. There's something super interesting if you're able to kind of sit in a space and understand

what it looks like at different times of day. And especially as a DP, if you can work with the AD and really kind of schedule what is the optimal time to shoot something, you know, it's such a game changer. Because a lot of times, like, you just working with the AD or even the PD, like, if the space is already kind of lit or it's already kind of designed you know like you don't have to do as much

like you're not starting from scratch a lot and I think a lot of times the architecture is a part of the story depending on the type of story you're telling it could be a character or it could resemble a character of how these people feel in their spaces

so it's it's a lot of fun I love vocational scouting and kind of really fine-tuning spaces for our specific needs. Or you're making up a whole space and we're very consistent. It's definitely like the 50. What are, I don't think I've asked this of anyone, but like what are some of the tools you use in a reproduction or scout scenario? Are there any things that like help you work more efficiently? I carry my iPad a lot and then on my iPad I doodle a lot I'm not a great doodler but I do like to

kind of draw and kind of sketch out things I'm trying to think of my name I think it's hologram it's going to drive me crazy but there is an app where you can you take photos of the space and it can redesign the space in 3D, which is... Is that the one where you, like, scan it? Yeah, you're like scan the room. I think you're right, it's like Polly something, whatever. Yeah, thou, and then I mainly use just like notability, and I'll just kind of like sketch, just rough ideas.

And then obviously, Ardena has some, like, carriage, but more than not, it's true. trying to get on the same page with the director. Like, what are they seeing? How are they seeing the space? And I feel like my trick, or this was like a lesson I learned really early on. I feel like a lot of times people walk into rooms and they'll always put on a point five on their iPhone and shake a photo of the space.

And I'm like, that is a lie. That space is not that big. Right. And you and I are both going to forget that it's not that big. so it's more like shooting at the one and no matter how uncomfortable it is like that is the true size of the space yeah so my I feel like at times my photos are horrible but that's how you want to see it you want to see it in the worst light possible so you can kind of come back and do your best work you know what's funny is I was talking to hoita a few months ago

and on the podcast we're not friends I'd love to be friends of them but either yeah anyway but I you know I had noticed in all these behind the scenes photos

he had like a Lyca around his neck and I thought he was doing the DP thing of just like taking cool photos and stuff and he goes oh no I don't even

save photos on it I literally will just set up the scene take a picture show it to Chris and be like that's basically what it look like because they're shooting Phil

I didn't even think about it he's got a digital like it's like the old Polaroid move no I had I've actually done that a lot for shooting film, like just having a camera, just like a digital camera that has like the same settings. So this is like a quick glance because you're trying to get everyone else

comfortable with what you're doing. And especially when it comes to film, like you and the gaffer and like you and your lighting team and camera team are like the only people that really know what it's going to kind of look like. And everyone else is just like running around our head and stopped off. that you're like, here's like a general idea of what it's going to kind of look like. But it's going to look a lot better than this. Oh, yeah.

Years ago, I did work for work that. I was like, Turner Assistant. Oh, no, shit. He was the most relaxed guy I've ever wear it. And he just, he's so sweet. And he just really respects his crew. So it's like, man, you want to be someone like that. who's like you're shooting the biggest thing ever but you're still hugging everyone around you so it's it's really admiring

i think i think something that happened to him naturally but i think kind of going back to what you're saying about like uh i almost said overgrad postgrad uh is approaching art or filmmaking later in life because like when i went to college i didn't spend i immediately got a job at Red Bull and I thought that was going to be like I I abandoned filmmaking. So I still was in film school, but I was like, this is more fun. This is real. And it's like if I would have started in the industry then, I would have fucked up so bad. I would like I would probably not be working today. Just because I was so scatter me, I didn't know how to work with people. I didn't, you know, I had not necessarily a big head on my shoulders, but you know, like anyone who's in their late teens, you know, you think you know everything. I mean, I think about that all the time I've thought about because I know so many friends that have gone from undergrad

straight to grad school and it's so cool to kind of see their careers. I'm like, wow, you're so young. But there's that part of me where I really enjoyed working in the industry and kind of getting a sense of

how the industry works, how to kind of navigate it, how to understand just different people as you know you are the youngest kid on set right so it's really interesting to kind of

look back that you know some of my colleagues that went straight from undergrad to grad and then some what didn't go to film school or the ones that just only were shooting and never crude I mean there's no like proper way of

moving up to the industry but it's that zigzag It's really fascinated. Yeah. I just realized it's very dark in my room now. Good Lord. Oh, no. I know.

I know it's all good. It's just looked at the screen house. Like, oh, my God. Like, can we? Well, it's overcast. Anyway, who are you like, I know you did the ASC vision mentorship program, but prior to that,

who were the like DPs that you kind of, for lack of a better term, wanted to steal from? Oh, stealing from everyone. Oh. I had the pleasure of being, I mean, I still have the pleasure here. Amy Benson, N.C. Yeah, I interviewed her. Oh, sure.

She's right. Yeah, Laurel. Yeah, no, she's been a mentor for me for years. And a lot of female DPs, I've had the pleasure of, like, touring under that ended up really supporting me as a D.P. Like, you got Polly Morgan, you got Kara Kelly, Cynthia Poochette. Yeah, no, it's, I, I feel like I had the pleasure of just working with and under so many female DPs and just other DPs. Like, it's very really nice to kind of see some of their mistakes or just see some of their trials and tribulations and really kind of learn all those mistakes. And then also just having someone to call being like, I don't know what I'm doing.

I need help or what do you think of this? And I think it's funny for longer you're in the industry. Sometimes it's easier to kind of find those people to really connect with that kind of understand your journey or where you want to go with your journey. Yeah. The kind of on a more technical side, what were some of the things? because you know you go to school and you learn three point lighting or whatever but working in the in the lighting department uh and working under you know other dPs like what are some uh maybe i guess this only really works for like the commercial side of things but like you know constantly you kind of go back to to make sure the image looks good like the like that pixel uh spot you shot looks incredible uh and i imagine you didn't just go outside and shoot it well that one that one was uh That was a tough one because you don't think that the observatory, or you forget, like, it's all white.

And I remember the client, they were saying, we wanted to look good, but I want it too good. I hate that note. I hear it all the time. And then also the observatory had like a lot of strict rules of like what we can put on the grass and just kind of. Just our overall manpower up there had to be super limited. So it's funny for that one, it was about timing. It was about really putting ourselves into faces where we weren't going to shoot ourselves on the foot at noon. Like if we can get there, if we could shoot the sequence between 9 and 10.30, the sum will be here.

We'll just do a little bounce and we'll call it, quits. It's funny. A lot of clients, it's almost like figuring out what do you really need to make a project. Because sometimes less is more. That project is an example of we definitely use less. Even though it was like a bigger job and we did have a lot of toys, we ended up using a lot less. Was it just like a 12 by bounce on it? Because it looks, the reason I brought that one up because it looks so polished, but just from me knowing stuff, I was like, I bet that was not a lot of, like, I bet that wasn't a bunch of 12Ks, you know. No, we have, we, we did a couple sequences where we threw out like black sat or like half soft routes, like overhead. And we did do some like low bounces, but not, it's crazy because the building is so white.

we actually were trying to black out some of that building. Like, the bounce from a lot of the observatory is just crazy. So it was a lot of, like, adding more neg. And then even just being up at the Hollywood sign, at that point in a day, I think everyone was also super dehydrated. Like, we were just like, it's fine. We just need to bounce, and I think we'll get by. Yeah.

It is fun. Yeah. Well, that also brings up something that we've mentioned a lot on this podcast, which is post. I was going to mention coloring. Hold on. I just remember the very, very first episode of this was with my neighbor Johnny Durango. He shot a movie called Fat Man. Oh, I love here.

Oh, yeah. He lives across the street for me. Oh, yeah. It's funny. There's a lot of my friends from Chicago, we all kind of still connect. We're all DPs. but every month we do get breakfast. And I met Johnny there.

And it was just like such a small world of like, how we'd never met? Like this is super cool. The three of us can go to death and co then. I'll just knock on the door. But one, so the whole movie that he shot was in the snow. And what he mentioned,

yeah, now your room's getting dark. I know. I was like, I'm going to slowly turn on a light. Yeah. You could talk to her. But one thing that he had mentioned was,

he thought he was going to have to bounce a lot, but instead what he ended up doing was putting like frost on one side and egg on the other and had the subject a stop under the snow. And then everything looked good. And I was like, that's interesting because I would have done the opposite. I would have tried to go stop over the snow. But he said that looks like shit and it doesn't look natural. I mean, that makes sense because when you think of snow, like,

it is like fresh snow. Like, it is really bright. It's the zone system. Yes. Like, it's so obvious. And I just never went to thought of it. And then I forgot where we were going because I got excited about Johnny. What the hell did I?

Oh, I'm so bad at this. 150 episodes. Well, that one's gone. About, what was it? It was about, what you were saying, working on less as more, people are dehydrated. I give up. I did want to ask the about you've had so many films in festivals. And I was wondering kind of what you,

this is sort of a loaded question, but like what are the importance of festivals versus just like making something with your friends trying to find a distributor, maybe not finding them, you know, putting it on YouTube, whatever. Like why are festivals so important in an era where I feel like they don't

get as much attention by the by the general community um i mean i feel like as other d p festivals are super important and if you have the time it's really important that you go um i think there's something about having that full cycle with a film of like you're in preps for a film you shoot a film you color a film but there's nothing sweeter watching a film and then watching people react to that film. And I think seeing people react to it, that's where you kind of build that momentum or you kind of build that height, the people tend to start, or like people get excited about projects that you work on.

And I think most times, like when we're shooting a short or a feature or something, like were really chung to get into one of those top tier festivals. And then when you do, it is, like my thesis, for example, like that was like a crazy story in itself of that film just took forever to make just because it was a pandemic film. And to have that premiere at Sundance was like the sweetest thing ever. just for everyone on that team. But we all kind of stayed together in Park City.

And it just made it super special. So I think especially as an up-and-coming filmmaker, I think it's super important to, even if you don't have a project at a festival, you should go to festivals and you should kind of see what movies are getting screened. Yeah. Like what type of projects are out there.

And I've definitely called directors and producers. And it's more about, like, hey, like, I really loved your project. I was super excited about it. Not necessarily, like, I want to work with you. But I think at times people need that acknowledgement and, like, hey, they did something tough. And it's nice to be, to kind of, like, find your back, pat on your shoulder in a way. So it was a very loaded question. I'm trying to, like, answer and still, like, think about that question.

But I don't know. I feel like I'm still learning, too, of, like, that festival experience. Yeah. Well, the leading end of that question is what my answer is, which is, like, I, for the longest time, I just didn't go. I didn't even have an opinion on them. But I knew I wasn't going to, like, Sundance anytime soon, just because I couldn't afford it. But even smaller festivals. Like, you know, whatever, Ohio film festival.

Like, my buddy got into Ohio, went to a couple others, got nominated for an Emmy. Like, you know, and it was a, it was quick. Like, he worked on that movie for, it was a documentary for like four years. And then in one year, he's sitting in the Emmys, you know. But also, not just about getting your own projects in there, but I found that, like, if you go on Reddit ever, which I can't recommend anymore, then the, it's a lot of people. people going like, where do I meet? I hate the phrase, like, like, minded individuals. And then I'm like, festivals. Don't find them on Reddit. It's a bunch of people asking, where do I meet people and have no idea what they're doing. Festivals are where you're going to meet people who are

doing it and interested in collaborating. I mean, people at festivals want to meet people. Yeah. Because I feel like when you're just walking around LA, I don't want to meet anyone right now. Like, I kind of wanted to stick, you know, or like, I'm meeting not one person, but when you're in that festival setting, like, people are excited to meet other filmmakers and to kind of relate on similar subjects. No, I'm a huge fan of, if you can, I recommend going, you know, even if you didn't make something in that festival, it is pricey, especially the bigger festivals. but if you can go, I would go. Yeah, it's, uh, yeah, whenever people ask, like, what do I do depending on where I am, I'll just be like, I'm a journalist, because it's still technically true. I write for pro video coalition.

Yeah, that counts. But I was, because anytime you say DP, they're like, ooh, anything I would have seen, you're like, no, I shoot fucking corporate ads. I was second unit on a movie no one saw like, no one, it's not fun to talk about. It is with someone who knows what you're talking about, but just the average person. wasn't, you know. But you did say what reminded me of that other thing I was going to talk about, which was when we were talking about the pixel thing and less is more. Something we've mentioned a million times of the podcast is how important the colorist has become. Because the camera, as Steve Edlin says, is just a data collection device at this point. Like you can put so much of your artistic influence into, you know, so much contrast or whatever lighting. But if there's data in those shadows, they can bring them up and wash out your contrast or whatever or in i would assume the case of the pixel ad or any of these like higher end um ads specifically but also movies like they can

make them sing and so i was wondering what your um uh interaction has been with some of the you know maybe these shorts whatever with the colorist are you kind of just a little more hands off are you in there a lot i if i can i love being part of the di i um it's actually one murderer at birth I get to look at all my mistakes. And all of my colors, yes, no, all of my colors that I've worked with are, they're all just so sweet as individuals and it's nice to rewatch the movie and wear her eyes where they're like, what was happening here? What, you know, like, it's a lot of fun.

And if I can make a lot with them beforehand, that's always a game changer because then we're all on the same page of the look and then when we're getting to color it's more about balancing things but as an up-and-coming filmmaker it's a really interesting relationship because I would say for like the short films and the more independent projects I really get to kind of pick and choose my colorists and I get to really grow with them but then for some of the bigger projects it goes on the hands a producer or like the production company or it's just like a big client so they're they're just going with their go-to person so in those circumstances you're just trying to shoot actually in all you're just trying to shoot the healthiest image possible and close enough for the look that you

want and then you're just hoping it stays in that vein which is like so tough but yeah I Like, for the gather, I worked with Walter Belpado, and I've done a couple of products. I've taken some group lessons from him. Yes. Now, he's fetched the light. And, yeah, there's a lot of colors that I've worked with that they only make me better. Like, they tend to question the work. And then together, we kind of find, like, a happy medium, and we get to build off it.

Yeah. Yeah, I just looked down and I noticed I had a different note about, I was looking at your Instagram, and you had some stills from a film or a short called Inner Demon. That was also, I would like South by. Oh, was that, was that the second one? Yeah, the second one. So I was wondering, that's perfect then. So I was wondering if you could, granted, only the people that South by have seen it, but if you could maybe compare and contrast the approaches to either film. You know, how the approach to lighting was what the look was intended to be on either one.

You know, I assume Inner Demon's a horror. You know, I think the title kind of just throws it out of the gate. So Inner Demon is a short film that deals with a girl who is obviously a struggle with her energy. It's going to come straight to the point. and great thank you I know

I don't know I don't know I don't know I'm in the DP but earlier on Jasmine the director

and I we talked about how interesting it is shooting like a horror thriller during the day

like there's something kind of scary experiencing things during the day when you can see things and it's

kind of that feeling where it's like the sun is coming through the windows but it's not

coming all the way through you know it's like there is that on this kind of feel so like we kind of riffed off that concept of how can you make things feel unknown or scary during the day and the story it's such a simple story where it goes from being in a background to a bedroom to a bathroom and we had like a really small crew for that was like a two-day shoot and then yeah no it's a fun project with two actors and you don't know where you're going to go

with it. Whereas the gutter was a studio project, the Village Road show, is a big teacher, you know, had mon plus a prep and two cameras that, you know, it was just like

on the opposite scale of projects. and for me like I love doing that like doing a smaller independent movie really connecting with that filmmaker and then going to doing a bigger movie where I'm trying to challenge myself technically yeah well because with the inner demon

I imagine just from the stills and you describing it like you're trying to build a lot of contrast into the image was it all just kind of like were you just pushing everything through a window and let no Been harder. We, so my gown for Mousher and my key grip, Andy, we lit a bit through the window,

but we had some light mats inside, but I think a big thing was just adding a ton of neck fill. And for this project in particular, we neg the ceiling. Like, we nagged, yeah, just because it kind of cut off that little bit of extra ambient light. and typically you get that like full rack and for this project it was really just letting things fall kind of into darkness and kind of really guiding lighting lines where we were looking and where we wanted you to look next

and then visually we do a lot of like fragmentation as she starts to go through the spiral and then they also introduce prisms as she kind of seen Zelleberghames love herself. So now it was a fun project. It was like a long weekend just with a lot of friends and like a really small bedroom. I feel like it doesn't matter like how big you get as a filmmaker. You're always back in that bedroom.

Like I feel like you're always shooting in a bedroom. I have a joke with a couple of my director friends where I'm like, if you start your movie in a bedroom and they're waking up, I'm going to lose it. Oh, yeah, the alarm clock shot. Yes, you're like, can we do anything else besides get out from bed? Or go to the bathroom? Why? Why?

No one has a good bathroom. Massive mirror. Lighting sucks. Can't put a camera in there. I hate it. I hate it so much. There's that. That reminds me, Bill Dill, one of my AIFI teachers.

He's been mentioned so many times on this fucking podcast. Have you heard the quote about the bathroom? No. Yeah, I don't think so. Oh, no, I'm literally only bringing up for the bathroom quote. Okay. Or something I feel like I love buying, but it's the idea of when you're shooting a project when you need to establish the space and the surroundings to get an understanding of where

the character is in that environment. And it's like, no matter how big the spaces, you need to know where the bathroom is. Yeah. I'm like, yeah, I guess you're right. Like, but I tend to live. by that and like you don't want to always be kind of shooting in that media was shot sometimes to get that effect you kind of need a wife or you kind of need to pull back a bit to know where they're sitting yeah yeah and it's really easy too uh to just get really pretty close-ups all the time oh yeah

well the thing is people okay going back to the whole festival a lot of times you know you're watching on like the 17 inch monitor or like the onboard like the seven inch or five inch and you forget like you're going to watch this in the pier and that close up it's going to look crazy yeah on the big screen but it's you got to kind of remember like things look different on big screens compared to little screens yeah it's okay to have visual variety there was uh i was i can't remember i think it was the ICG 600 awards like that and I remember

this is like last year I remember this has nothing to do with photography but the thing that happened in every single movie was the high pitched like you lost your hearing sound every single movie had that I was like oh no after the fourth one I was like there's 10 of these yeah now I

my friend Sarah was like my dear friend that I went to AFI with she was she shot a movie in that block I don't know if you remember it's called Juliet it was the

kind of like a Romeo and Juliet story oh yeah no that was great the girl in the play yeah yeah yeah I actually I worked on that I would keep you are yeah it was fantastic you know

it's hard for a club school but you know I had to support her but it was a lot of films to watch and I was very tired I was like I like you but you're testing me well and I don't think that

that event I'm glad you went to that because now I can play about it they didn't sell the idea first of all they didn't tell anyone about the parking but then they didn't sell they didn't explain to anyone that we were going to watch all these films I thought this was just the award ceremony

and then we were all going to eat snacks But this is how it's been for years. Yeah, the American scene of ontographers. And it's funny, I applied to it a couple times, like, over the years. I never got it. So, like, okay, fine. I'm moving on with my life. But it's crazy that we watch the entire fun.

And it's hard because it's, like, visually, it is interesting, but I'm not so engaged in the story. And then it goes back to my question, is it good cinematography if I'm not engaged in the story? Right. Yeah. The reason I was there is because my buddy Petros, who I had had on the podcast, shot that Greek one, the 4-3, about the old guy. Well, that was pretty. Yeah, that was a, and he, apparently he shot that forever ago. So, like, he was like, that's not, he goes, that's not even what I like anymore.

Like, that's not even my visual style anymore. Yeah. No, it's funny. I feel like for those, like, you could just pick for the Rolodex. That reminds me, I had to been last year. But last year, I was at the Clubhouse, ASE Clubhouse, and they do the photo series. And, you know, it's all the members they can decide from their portfolio, like a photo that they want to display. and I'm looking at some of these photos and I'm like this is from the 60th which is not recent

yeah there's some that are like super recent and then some that are very dated and then I was talking to one of my friends who's a member she's like oh yeah you could just tick whatever you want

from your like lifetime I'm like well shit now like that's crazy well and some of them like I was there for the Kodak Awards and I was looking at the ones on the wall and some of them are just like a photo of a neon bar sign

and I'm like I mean you're an incredible DP I could have shot that like I have photos of neon bar signs like yeah no I I always love those events because it's like I never can get the DP behind the photo because it's

it's always like that's personal like their personal taste typically and then you look up you're like oh that's you know like at the mall counter you're like what that's okay that's

that's crazy or I always wonder if it's like they just had some fun snapshots and then they were asked to be in it they're like well I'm not not going to be in it have this I had I had it once or who had a photo and he was

telling me it was just like a long drive when he was in Europe and I was like good for you like a lot of story yeah it just it felt so random but it also felt so beautiful and so organic to who he is as a person I was like oh that's you like not anyone can take a photo like that and be like sure well oh actually that's a good question what uh You know, getting into the, any of the, like, ASC programs is rad. What did the, what's it called, the vision mentorship program? What was that experience? Is that like an ongoing thing?

Is that like a class? And what was that experience like? Or is it? So the ASC, they have like a couple programs. Right. I've done a couple. They have the AOC Masterclass, which I did like years. ago. That one you kind of had to pay for, but it is a like, I want to say it's like a week

long program where you get to dive into kind of different parts of the field and meet a lot of AFC members and you get to do a lot of demos. And that's what's cool about that one is you have a lot of international traction, like a lot of international students too. was kind of come out with that. But the ASC mentorship program is a program where they carry you up with a mentor.

So I did that, but my mentor never really met up with me. Oh, darn. Yeah. But I've had... Mail relationship? It was like, we emailed

and then they never really got back to me. Like, they were just really busy. And I was like, oh, bam. But I've known some friends that have had a successful time in that program. So, I mean, I feel like the rule of strong is always applying. You never know what's going to stick. Yeah. Well, in that program, you don't have to pay for, right?

You just... No. So... And it's more of, like, you get paired out with an ASCDP. And it's not like you're asking for John. Like, you're more finding ways to navigate the underhand. and you're just getting a lot of advice and hopefully they pair you up with someone that is in keen to what you want to do in the industry yeah and not actively shooting whatever dune

yeah no that was that was the thing is like i i met my mentor who was super awesome but he was so busy shooting like he shoots a ton of television i was like all right bye nothing against you but i know i'll see you yeah that's fair that actually brings up a side question which is at what point did you know it was time or at what point did someone reach out to where you were finally got representation because that's always a question people go like hey you know they think that's where the jobs come from and unfortunately it's not but it is kind of like a launching point for a certain segment of your career yeah I when it came to reprimandation, they reached out to me. And that's always been your advice I've gotten

from a lot of my friends because you don't want to reach out. I mean, it's not bad reaching out to them, but you want them to be excited about you. And I met up with my agents and they were super excited kind of about my career. And it kind of, it was like a, it was an interview. at times and it was really exciting but you know you feel like a kid we're like I have nothing on my website or like my roster so like am I going to have a phone with your roster so it was a lot of just kind of self conversing with myself you know figuring out is this the right match and I think for me I really wanted to be with a group of people that I could grow with and that's what I told them up front. I was like, at the time, I only had like a few shorts, but they were

doing really well, but career-wise, I didn't want to be pigeonholed into that specific genre. But then they've been great. I've really enjoyed that relationship, and we've just kind of been growing throughout. And I know everyone has different relationships with their agents, but it's finding ways to have open communication with them. How are you going to move up with them? Right. Yeah, I was talking to Jay Holden about the same thing. And he was saying, like, they have, the agent has to have something to sell you on.

And if you don't have, which makes total sense. It sounds like they can't sell potential. They have to, they have, you have to have something, you know. So if you're trying to look like, you know, if you want to be a, uh, If you want to shoot booze ads, you've got to have a booze ad on your website or else they're not going to, you know, so you kind of have to take that initial investment yourself. Oh, 100%, 100%. I mean, they've been great, or at least like, opening the door, and then once you're in there, you kind of have to fight for yourself. Or they've definitely helped with negotiating for projects and definitely reading on. projects, I don't think I ever would have gotten.

So it's good, but I think I'm still learning and kind of navigating. And I think the best thing is like, if you do join an agency, like, get to know the other DPs on the roster. Because like some of those DPs are like some of my closest friends. I'm like, oh, did you read that script? And they're like, yeah, it was crazy. I was like, we don't want that one. Yeah.

It's, it becomes like a really fun conversation of like. Oh, are we going through the same things? Oh, we're not. Because the group of us, we all are very different types of DPs. So it's really interesting to kind of see how our relationship differs from the same agent. Yeah. Well, and I assume that any agent wants a quiver. They don't want 15 of the same DP because then you're just all battling for the same thing. oh yeah and they're not making any money well and I think like how this industry works is like you have to kind of find a way to put your personal touch on every project you do which is at times it feels so arbitrary you're like how do I do that but I find with every project I'm able to kind of put just like a little stamp that's like oh okay I think Toronto Yeah, I mean, so to example and then other thing, or in reverse, the, I was thinking about that the other day, like, when you go, when maybe you go too far, like, uh, Zach Snyder, right? You know Zach Snyder, because it's like he's still doing Under Armour commercials, but they're just feature length, you know? And, uh, which is rad, like, all this stuff looks rad, but at a certain point, I imagine. I because I'm not at this level, that that might pigeonhole you, where if your personal touch is so specific that you only get hired to do that, that could potentially be frustrating. But again, I don't know. I mean, I really make an effort to kind of jump through different genres and just try to work on stories that are very different from the ones I've been telling. But, you know, You're also like, you kind of fall in love with collaborators. You're like, okay, I'll do anything with you.

And I really connect with this type of project. But it's funny in the last couple of years, I've been really trying to get more into commercials. And it's like catch-22. When you shoot a lot of narrative, it's really hard to shoot commercials. Right. Vice versa. Yeah, I talked to all my commercial friends, and they're like,

how do you get into narrative? And I'm like, trade news. Like, can we trade like one project? but it is such as a snowball a heck though you can get one it can lead to another which will lead to another well and the thing I've always said is like taking small gigs

usually you end up meeting someone who is also just taking a small gig maybe not for like money but just for whatever maybe they're doing a favor and stuff and those will often lead to those bigger gigs or other gigs so it's best not to like poo poo smaller stuff or say you're I know

I mean I feel like investing in people has been the ticket to doing bigger and better jobs I'm like I shot a documentary like two years ago now

almost oh my God I think it's three years let's see more it's been three years since we shot this documentary and it was such a personal experience

just dealing with George Floyd and we all kind of live together it was like 14 days and then now like I still talk to that director and we're about to do a commercial together and it's really nice to kind of go into the weeds with someone and then do other types of projects with them

I think that's like the best of those things I was going to say on the look thing I remember this happened what was it like Empire of Light and I was like man this looks like a Deacons movie and then the credits come up

and I was like oh it is a Deacon's movie and you know what it was it's his tungsten yellows I don't know what his shooting because he always talks about how he just has like the same lut for everything

but there's something about the yellows and like the quality of the tungsten warm light that he uses it it's always like a very specific kind of would you say it's like

the strar yellow yeah I know there. Yeah. Because like yellow is a really hard color to produce just when I comes to LEDs

just like it's true. Green. Yeah. So no, his work is always so pristine and it doesn't matter like the type of subject by the shooting. You're like, I believe that. And it's so mundane but beautiful. I'm like

how. Well, the I think of like, I think it was skyfall when him and when James Bond and the lady are at the bar and it's just orange I mean the whole thing is orange but it still has so much separation and so like it doesn't look if I shot that

it would have looked like I fucked up the color type or turned on the camera like that but somehow he's able to like really meld that in but again jumping around everywhere was your website you you helped shoot the Miss Cleo documentary I did that's

that's wrong rad. I remember that. What was so vividly? Pauline now? Oh. Yeah, that was a fun one. We shot interviews in LA and then we shot more interviews in Atlanta and it was just a wild ride. Just also I think being in Atlanta and meeting a few people that were really close to her and they had a shrine

of this. It was a lot. You're doing V-roll around his house and yeah, it was a lot. And to just to see people get so emotional about the subject, you're just like, I'm in a space

I didn't know I was walking into. Yeah. And that's, I feel like sometimes with documentaries things can change very, quickly. Like, they can go from being super happy, just super sad. And like all in a moment. And it's not like a full 12 hour day. It's like six hours, but you've been getting information, you've been getting so much information in those hours where you're like, I'm so tired. Yeah. Yeah. The kids don't know about calling one nine hundred numbers.

No, they don't No, that was a fun one But I do like docs I think docs are a good way To just like I get to learn about a subject But I was not thinking about whatsoever Yeah And the script

Well, it's not written But it writes itself It's a little easier, I guess You know, you just go with it And then the editor figures it out All I got to do I'm always I'm always impressed like every time I see them edit

of like a doc I've worked on I'm like congratulations like you pulled like very specific clips and you really made it into a story because I had no idea when we were shooting it

I feel like when I shoot narrative like I have a really good idea of where we're going from A to B whereas on documentaries it always takes a turn I'm like I don't know where we're going right just got to be there

and what's the street photography and f8 and be there yeah yeah um your shirt i know i've kept you over so i'll just do the final jump over which was uh when we were talking earlier about um uh inner demon and then i was going to compare so we were talking about shooting in a in a room how do you make a bowling alley look good do you lean into the overhead fluorescent lighting or do you just relight the whole thing or what was kind of was it produced was it production designed at all or did you what was that like So, okay. So all of our bowling themes are all in one bowling alley. So Maggie, the PD and I worked for a long time figuring out each look for each boring alley. And so Walt, as just kind of going. So it was just, it was one alley playing multiple alleys. Yes. So we had to kind of keep redressing the bowling alley. So sometimes it was like very. practical reset. A couple times we did some like green screen walls and they did like

graphics and so forth. But pretty much they'll just give you like a recap of the story. So give you a sense of chaos. So Walt, he's like down on his luck. He's like this coat of black dude. He starts working out a bowling alley. And the bowling alley, it's going under. And we find out He's just really good at bowling. Like, he throws, like, it's, it's hilarious, like, how he throws the ball. And he decides to go on tour with the kind of the local drunk of the Bowling Alley. And she was also, like, a former pro bowler. So they go on tour.

Is that Susan? No. Oh, no. She's about to come in. Sorry. My bad. My bad. So, Walt is played by Shemeek Moore, Spider-Verse, and when his partner in crime is Darcy Cardin.

You might have seen her on the league of their own, like, very, she's super funny. And he, Walt ends up being just, like, amazing or bowling, and he's turning bowling black. And it's hilarious. Like, he's just such a dude taking over the bowling world. and Susan Srander's character she finds out and she's on having it and she was this epic bowler from the 90s

like just a pristine bowler and so she comes out of retirement to challenge him and that's that's kind of the movie got it so it's like it's ridiculous on all friends but they do go on this road trip of going to different bowling alleys

you know doing this long tournament so we had to kind of figure out, all right, what does Florida look like? What does Texas look like? And yeah, no, it was a ton of fun, but there was so many moments where like half the lanes, like lanes like one or ten are like one city. Okay, I can't shoot over there.

And then lanes like 15 to 25 are a different city. And we had kind of a cheating wall that we would use so we wouldn't shoot on the other set. And then as for lighting, as Walt gets to bigger and better bowling alleys, the lighting gets better. So in the original bowling alley that he works at and like his first tournament gains,

the lighting really leans into the next color overhead lighting. So it's like we use the shitty lighting that the bowling alley actually had. It was bad. Like this bowling alley kind of needs it still alive, but we used like that lighting. And then we had a lot of ground units and we just kind of keyed from the ground. But it was just kind of that color kind of feel. But as we, I'm sorry about that.

No, you're good, you're good. As soon goes, the bigger bowling alleys, the lighting becomes a little cooler. We turn more, once we get to the chamber, championship, it becomes like a full, like, overhead softbox. So it was a lot of fun working with my GAFR, Marlon, and my caregiver shun, and figuring out how to deviate these boring alleys. And then we also got rid of all the oil that's on the lanes. Sure. Because.

You don't want people you can get to die. Yeah. No, like, you literally, you can't walk on the lanes. but without oil everyone's battle bowling like everyone yeah so

so did you have to re-oil the thing to get shots of the balls no we just kind of like we would swing it and you know like we did our magic to make it to make it

be a strike the Phillies but funny story one day the actual bowling alley decided to put the oil back on the lane it was horrible it was like awesome

you're just seeing an entire crew trying to tiptoe around like these like two lanes that are oiled so it was total chaos but I think what you would love is like shooting lines like we never we only could have a crane for our final championship sequence

So for all the other bowling scenes, like we use steel deck and we put steel deck on the lanes and we allowed, so you could bowl underneath the camera. So we would put track on the steel deck and then we would kind of push in and pull out as they're bowling while the actor can literally bowl underneath the steel deck. that sounds like a really fun exercise using one space to like and just like make the lighting better and better and better like that's almost like a film school in and of itself like here's a here's a location you have to make it look shitty and then look amazing in five iterations or whatever it's it's funny because early on and pre-pro we thought we were getting more locations and we didn't um so we just we were figuring out like okay this is how we would make it better, or this was worse lighting. But we found like a groove of like what is the optimal way of kind of lighting 360, but still having little shape. Cool. What? I totally forgot. I have to, I do have to go.

I was literally about to say, uh, I, I, like, watch during the law, I was like, oh, I'm bad. No, I was literally about to say like, uh, you got to go because I've kept you way too long. Um, but thanks so much for, uh, chat with me. Uh, and I look forward to seeing it when I can. Yes. Now I, hopefully it's, it's out soon. It's very much like how big a night's needs staunch ball. Incredible. It's what it's what the people need. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, well, thanks again. And like I said, uh, stay in touch and we'll, we'll hit, uh, we'll hit the arts district go to death and co and I'll show you all that. I'll love that. All right. I'll talk to you

later. All right. Later. Later. Bye. reference is an owlbot production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can go to frame and refpod.com and click the button to buy me a coffee. It's always appreciated. As always, thanks for listening. And as a little editor's note, I have not interviewed Amy Vincent. I interviewed Amy Bench, who's also rad, but I'd love to talk to Amy Vincent, but I didn't. I think for some reason I had St. Vincent a musician on my mind. I don't know. I think that's the only editor's note I've ever put in a podcast. Anyway, thanks for listening. We'll see you next week.