Frame & Reference Podcast - 146: "Death & Other Details" Production Designer James Philpott

Episode Date: June 13, 2024

Changing it up a bit this week! We've got Production Designer James Philpott on to talk about his work on the recent Hulu show "Death and Other Details" as well as his previous work on films like one of my old favorites "The Sixth Day" Enjoy! Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.frameandrefpod.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for everything F&R You can directly support Frame & Reference by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Buying Me a Coffee⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coast's leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠⁠Filmtools.com⁠⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and you're listening to Episode 146 with James Philpott, the production designer of death and other details. Enjoy. So it's a good time. Now, I will say traditionally, this is a cinematography podcast, but I do like interviewing people who are kind of in that same sphere. You know, so like an editor is maybe a little too far out, but certainly production design.

Well, definitely. Yes, I mean, definitely I work with cinematatverse quite a lot. So I'm not sure if I'll be talking about cinematography, but I can definitely tell you a bit about what cinematatvers, like like and especially like to ask to you um designers for so 100% yeah the uh yeah it's it's funny the um the number of times that i have seen this this was like a joke this show's been going for four seasons now and uh in the early days the amount of times it would be like a dp would get an award for best cinematography and it was like really it was the production design that everyone

loved and that just everyone confuses the look of a show like the way it physically looks with cinematography and it's like actually that was the DP they're the production designer well I'm going to take um I mean it all goes hand in hand because I mean you can design on a beautiful set and if it isn't lit right or the cinematography it's not going to be beautiful anymore and it's conversely I mean it's it's kind of a ying and yang situation when it comes to that. But I always liked the DOPs to say it was because of the sides. Of course, I'm not going to say no to that. But I also recognize DOPs do amazing work with things too that just elevate. So there we're sure. But I mean, I always tell like students and stuff, you know, especially because cameras are so accessible now. They're all you can make incredible images with anything almost. Spend that money that you think you need rent. a nicer camera or whatever on the production design and the costumes, because that's what, you know, especially in a student setting, that's what's really going to show up versus,

oh, we shot on a red. It's like, okay, you got AK crap good for you. Well, I mean, that's true. I mean, really, I mean, the sets can make a huge difference in terms of what you see and how things are elevated. And, I mean, obviously, I work really carefully with DOPs. And, I mean, it is like a hand-in-hand-hand. situation. So I think it's really important to recognize that's part of your look. And also

just sort of ideas of access lines and all sorts of things that it's really important for cinematographers to be aware of as well in terms of what's beautiful and how things are playing out. Yeah. Did you, um, have you been watching anything cool recently? You just been working like crazy. I've been working like crazy. I mean, I have sort of different shows that I watch with different people in my household. So I have been watching. My young star likes light, light and kind of humorous. And we've been watching Palm Royale. So we've been watching Palm Royale. And then my wife and I just started watching We're the Lucky Ones, which is on Apple TV, the sort of Holocaust project with Joey King, which is quite intense. So those are kind of things that I've been watching in the last

of a while. I tend to watch one hour of something, one every day, but it takes me forever to get through series. I, for the longest time, was trying to do a movie a day, and my girlfriend started to get sick of it, because she would, she'd, you know, go home from work and be like, hey, let's hang out. I'm like, no, no, no, hold on. I'm doing, I'm doing something, you know. There's another, like, three-hour movie I have to finish. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, I sort of, I'm kind of, it sometimes takes me a long time to get through series because, as I say, I kind of watch it with other people and then suddenly their schedule is like, oh, I can't watch this today. And suddenly it's like weeks go by and before we see the next episode of something. I've definitely had to start. I understand not finishing a series in one sitting. That's how we've done it since forever. But I can't stop a movie.

halfway through. Hey, we'll pick this up later. I'm like, no, you're going to leave and I'm going to finish this. I can't. We're in the moment now. Come on. Well, actually, I think my wife and I watched The Gentleman, and I think we watched it in Tuesday. So that, that kind of kept her, well, it was the weekend, too, so I didn't have to work. But yeah, so some shows, and if it's a short series, you can do that. Yeah. Yeah. I actually just interviewed, I believe it was Callan Green, who shot The Gentleman. Well, it was a beautiful. So I really enjoyed that one. It's sort of beautiful, but it's sort of all very sleazy at the same time. Like I couldn't decide what I thought of the characters of the end of it. It's sort of, even though they were the heroes, they were kind of like, yeah, they're all kind of potentially bad people. That's classic Guy Richie though, right? Like, for sure, for sure. Yes. It was fun that way. I really liked that. you know what i uh i just watched last night actually because i knew you were coming on and it was a

movie that i uh loved when it came out when i was younger and it was fun to revisit was the six day oh right i i mean that was i mean really early my career and i was a set designer on that one but yeah that's a long time ago i remember um i worked on that and um this is a really obscure detail but I don't know if you recall there's a police fan with like a policeman and a small little girl on the creepy doll well not the creepy doll it was a little girl on with the policeman it was this really sinister picture of a policeman helping a little girl

and it was on the side of the band and that was my daughter when she was four years old and she's 28 years old now So it's sort of like, okay. So as a set designer for that film versus a production designer, what were your kind of main responsibilities? Because it's, I don't, you'd have to tell me, like looking back on it, it feels like it might have been low budget, but certainly at the time it didn't feel that way.

No, I mean, at the time, it was actually really high budget that show. Some of those sets were very, very expensive. I mean, I think it's just sort of, I guess, what our expectations of what things look like are different now. I mean, you know, that was 20, 24 years ago. So the idea of what films look like, the idea of what sort of cool, modern, and sort of futuristic look like is very different now. But, I mean, what my job was is that just basically was to execute and to sort of draw and basically sort of maybe not design the sets, but to make sure the sets were properly drawn so that they could be executed by construction.

So really the difference of a set designer, whereas as a production designer, I come up with the aesthetics of the looks of all sorts of different things, and then I sort of task everybody to the various things and just make sure the projects are done to what's sort of in my brain. So that's sort of the big difference. But, yeah, I mean, I haven't seen that for a long time, But I can sort of see how maybe it does sort of look more of its time, which there's so much cool stuff out there now that it's really hard to keep up.

Well, that was something that I was kind of laughing about was, well, A, like, when I say low, but I think maybe it was just the way it was edited. It had this very early, late 90s, early 2000s, cool editing style. And by cool, I'm kind of putting it in quotes, but like a little faster than maybe we would let things kind of sit now, you know, conversations are kind of clipy. So maybe that was what I was saying. But like the VFX don't look terribly dated. And like the clone room looks really cool. The clones themselves look really cool. The clones were so creepy. I mean, I just couldn't even look at them. Like if it was in the room, I would just like, there was two doors in the at the room. I would make sure I would leave by the door that was the furthest away from the club. I just like and the creepy doll, since you mentioned it, I remember it was in our office for the longest time. And I was just like, I can't even go close to. at that thing. It's just so freaks me out. And people were like petting and touch it. I can't even like go like 20 feet near it. It's just, oh, yeah. But it is it is amazing how how many things in that movie kind of like versions of them now exist. Self driving car,

you know, the OnStar being kind of a more centralized thing. Even video chat, you know, because even in 2000 video chat was not a thing. Skype, well, I don't think, out yet. Well, I mean, 2000, I mean, people barely had cell phones. Right. In some ways, I mean, I just think, like, that was like, one, that was like the late 90s. I mean, I think a lot of people started getting cell phones in the early, like 2000, 2001 was when sort of those, not the brick phones, but you know, those sort of like those little Nokia things people used to have. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, the technology is so different. I mean, obviously back then you wouldn't be sitting here and we'd have a conversation like thousands of miles away as if we're in the same

row. Yeah, that was, I remember my mom mentioned when I was having a conversation with her years ago, I think I was in college. And it was something about like, what did you think the future would be? And she was like, well, the Jetsons told us we'd be talking to each other on TV. So when Skype came out, I thought the future was here. Like, fair enough. Well, it kind of is in a way. I mean, if you think about it, um, the idea that we would even like FaceTime and Skype and obviously Zoom, um, they worked kind of for the long time like these sort of really crazy futuristic ideas. And now they're just sort of commonplace. Yeah. Do you, do you have a not to harp on the sixth day, but it really was one of my favorite movies when I grew up, uh, got that Blu-ray and everything. Um, was there some about that shoot that you remember, uh, kind of enjoying specifically or was it a pretty hard gig? I don't think it was I don't think it was necessarily a hard gig

but it was a very I mean there was a lot of busyness on that show and I mean it was I just remember that one because I had this one

situation where I had bruised my back and I couldn't sit for like the first I'm like six weeks I was on that show so I learned how to like set design and draft

standing up and that was kind of a weird situation and then I did sort of have a lot of colleagues who showed me how to use all sorts of different computer programs, which I still use. So it makes me really dating because I'm still using the computer programs that I learned when I was on sixth day.

But I think that was kind of a, it was a good project. I actually quite liked that. And I mean, some of those sets that we did, like, as you say, the tank room was pretty epic. Yeah. I mean, that there was so much water in that tank room that when they went to wrap the set, the floor had depressed by eight inches, and they had to redo the floor in the stage. Cheeys.

So heavy. So heavy. Was Hank's apartment fully built, or was that a location? I think that was a location. I know some of like they sort of the evil mastermind, his office was built, and that was one of the sets that I worked on, was that. But I think I think the Hanks Department was a location. Yeah. Because it was, go ahead. No, you go ahead, sorry. Well, I was just going to say it speaks to your guys' skill because I couldn't tell.

I mean, you can tell when something's a set when it's something like the tank room, but I could, you know, the only one that threw me off was the mall, because I thought that was the Westfield Mall over by me and I had to look it up. I was like, no, Canada. Oh, yeah, like, I mean, a lot of the mall stuff has done at this university campus and a lot of, campus and a lot of some of the car chases that went down staircases was done at a local university that was kind of a famous architect design. So that was quite. And it was interesting because that campus was based on a Southern California mall system. So maybe that's why it kind of reminded you of that a lot. Well, and they had just demolished that mall over here to put a Google

campus in. And then the pandemic happened. So Google backed out. So now there's just this giant there's not even walls in it it's just you know glass and floors and uh but it had this really beautiful open not open but um glass ceiling curved glass ceiling and so when i saw that in the movie i was like oh wait really and no uh no but you know what's cool is cool so it doesn't matter where it is yeah exactly i had seen in a in a different interview that you had mentioned going to your degrees in architecture yes yes so i kind of started from that point of view opposed to i know a lot of people that kind of come out of film school but a lot of people in the art department in production designers we often come from different like artistic fields and

i architecture was kind of like my jumping point for um working um as a production designer well i started as a set designer so that was quite a very simple segue but yeah architecture and I think it really influences how I design my sets, for sure. Yeah, it's funny how many DPs are also either fans of architecture, went to architecture school, their family art, all art. There's something about architecture specifically that seems to draw the film industry to it. Well, I think it's also kind of the, it's sort of, oh, I'm going to say to send probably people who come from different disciplines are going to be really mad, but probably not.

It's sort of like the kingpin discipline in the arts. Like it's sort of very much just sort of encompasses so much different ideas of aesthetic because it kind of goes into interior design. I mean, there's a little bit of, and it also influences like your environment because it's all very much about making physical environments. And I think with production design, but even like as a DOP, you're creating physical environments and it's sort of about how the world is and I think that's sort of what architecture is and I think that's probably why so many people either come from that field or have great interest

in it because it's it's world building and architecture is world building and that's sort of essentially what you know designers and DOPs do when they and direct just of course when they're making their projects yeah it is I do really appreciate I'm a DP I don't know if I said it but I do really appreciate when you go to a restaurant, building Disneyland, wherever, and that ability of a room to make you feel like you're not where you just came from. Like walking into a room and feeling, for lack of a better term, transported is like very fun that we can do that. Even with all the technology and knowledge we have, there's still something basal within us that allows us to go like, oh, no, there's no laws here, you know, or whatever.

Right. Exactly. And it's also, I mean, that's sort of what, when you, you, I'm a film and you're looking for locations and whatnot, it's always this sort of thing is like, okay, this space makes me feel like I'm in, I don't know, Thailand or makes me feel I'm in L.A. or thanking for wherever. And it's always looking for these sort of architectural clues to sort of tell the audience, or else make you feel that you're somewhere else. And that's sort of kind of the architectural elements in it. And I mean, when you go to locations, get the experience that you just talked about, that's really important. Yeah. Did you, when you were studying, was there any kind of particular, I suppose, designers or styles that you were

drawn to? Because for me, which will be on topic in a bit, big art deco fan. Not that I've studied it, but I've always just really appreciated, especially in downtown L.A., there's tons of it. Well, it's interesting because I feel like when you go to architecture school, you tend to become very immersed in modern architecture or very much the contemporary architecture of the time. And when I went to architecture school, it was, well, a few years, many years ago, a few years ago, and right before the sixth day. Yeah, exactly. Well, yes, it was. So, yeah, we are. So, I mean, things like deconstructivism and sort of architecture. like Zahadid and various people like that. Frank Gehry were very popular. And so that idea of like deconstructive architecture was really important and very interesting. And, um, but then obviously, you know, when you're in architecture school, you studied sort of classic, the classic, um,

modernist masters like with Cabousie and, you know, Amis Fanderot and, um, uh, that. And you kind of develop a sort of a, almost a modernist and contemporary taste in that, world. But I personally, because one of my other real loves is I really love history and I really like design styles. And I sort of, not that I would design architecturally in those styles, but I mean, it's something that I really love. So when I came into the film industry and we kept allowed to sort of work in those styles, it was really, it's really exciting. And I think it's kind of actually having those two interests really helped me because a lot like a lot of my work i've done quite a bit of sci-fi and kind of futuristic stuff but i'm now especially lately

and particularly um death and other details which um was on hulu recently i mean i was able to sort really look into something much more historical and i really enjoyed it because i i mean not only do i like the style i also kind of really like the periods and it's sort of always interesting to know what is happening in people's lives and, you know, current events in these time periods and how it influences what things look like. And so that's really interesting. I really enjoyed that. Yeah. It is funny how, you know, NASA is the easy one to point to, but like, NASA and sci-fi tend to feed each other, you know, if the movies will take from NASA. But what's funny is like you and many other people who have designed what we see is the sci-fi future doesn't seem

to have been stolen from because now all the apartment buildings we have are just gray blocks yeah nothing fun about any of it well i know exactly and i mean in some ways i mean even when you do futuristic stuff i mean i love to sort add a historical element into the worlds and i mean i did done a series called 100 for quite a while. And we built this post-apocalyptic city. And I was able to imbue it with sort of almost historical ideas of buildings because it was supposed to be like a ruin of a sort of a U.S. city. And like a lot of the U.S. cities had, especially in the 19th, early 20th century, had very sort of historical basis. And I was able to build sort of these columns then the architories that would be on a bank,

but it also harked back to kind of ancient Rome, and it also just kind of reminded me of ruins. And it's always, but then it was still a sci-fi show, and it had a sci-fi direction. And it's all, I feel it grounds things and just adds a little, like more layers to things,

which is interesting. Yeah, I mean, because like what you were saying earlier, like production design and costuming are the sort of, um, what do you call it, subconscious storytelling. Yeah. degree where they inform the character, what's happening, whatever.

And I think what you just said to that point is like, if you put historical elements in your sci-fi thing, for instance, that makes it feel real. Whereas if you go full sci-fi, if you're doing good, you get Star Trek. If you're doing bad, you get, you know, I don't know, the room, but, you know, space. Yeah, the gray wall. well i mean that's also the interesting thing or sort of about modern architecture in film and specifically television i mean it has to be like designed differently than in reality too because i mean if you think about it like a lot of modern architecture it's about a space and it's a gray wall

and i mean when you walk in you feel it in a specific way but when you film it especially if you have characters it becomes a gray wall and that's all it is and And so it's like you have to just sort of conceive modern architecture in a completely different way when you're doing that for cinema rather than for real life. That was something I did actually want to ask you. What are some of the things that you have to take into account when designing a space for film versus for reality? Because, you know, we were just saying walking into a space and feeling transported. certainly is great, but it may not photograph in the way that makes you feel that same feeling. Obviously, installing lamps every five inches is probably one of them.

But, you know, what are some of those things that you have to take into consideration? Well, I mean, I think several things that I always look at is I work kind of very much on sort of a series of design principles rather than sort of saying design styles. And so I always, I mean, all the people that I work, I always talk about the thing, the line. And what I always do is I sort of divide up stats into kind of axis lines of visual lines. And I always feel at the end of each sort of line, I kind of create a tableau. So there's always a visual interest in that access line or that view cord. And I always try and make sure there's some form of light at the end of the tunnel or in a way.

And it could be a light. It could be a window. It could be a gay paint hole in a wall. It could be a series of candles. And that's where, obviously, the style that you're working with will dictate how you manipulate that idea. And then what I also do is sometimes I'll sort of almost create X's. So if you have one view corridor, you do something that's perpendicular

and you create other view corridors. And they sure also start to think about where people come in and out of spaces, how they flow and create interest. and I always make sure that every angle has a point of interest to it. And that's sort of going back to sort of what we're talking about modernist architecture, is like, you know, the blank wall has a really great feeling in real life, but it doesn't have interest on camera. Whereas, so you might have to add more detail than you would have in real life.

So a lot of times it's about textures, it's about details, and it's also about how light hits the walls and surfaces in a different way. So like a concrete, well, maybe you make it extra smooth and so it's shiny, or you make it really rough. So the light kind of sort of creates some sort of haze on it. And then the other thing, of course, in film studies, is they're often really much bigger than real life. You probably hold up because, and I know when producers are saying, James, why do you design your set so big? It's like, well, oh, you don't have like, you know, 75 people in a camera in this bedroom in real life. But out of film, you do.

So that's sort of the other thing. But it's definitely just really, I just have to think about the visual aspects. And as you were saying, lights, I mean, that's obviously another thing that we look at, too. Because, like, in film, sconces are so important. And people love, and especially the people love sconces. But, I mean, sconces aren't really that popular in regular architecture. Often it's overhead lighting. And, I mean, of course, on film, overhead lighting is actually,

often not that attractive for people, like especially, unless you're doing something where you have a very sourcey idea and it's sort of like kind of menacing, but, you know, I'm Richardson's of the world. Exactly. But, you know, I mean, on death and other details, I mean, one of the first things I talked with our DOP is, like we talked about overhead lights. And he said, I do not like overhead lights because all these, particularly the women, but the men too, these, all these people are supposed to look gorgeous and beautiful. And I don't want to have a moment where they walk in and they have these like weird, ugly shadows on their faces that make them look, you know, clownish or scary. So it's like those, whereas, you know, sconces can make beautiful light. So that's

a thing that we do a lot of, which, you know, you don't really see that much in real life. Yeah. Well, and it speaks to, you know, one thing that I think takes younger DPs a long time to figure out is just composition, which is weird because you would think that like something more technical would be harder, but it's always composition. And it's interesting to hear you say that you're building compositions into these rooms, which makes the DP's job a lot easier. Well, and I mean, the thing is a lot of, I mean, that's the thing. And often, you know, I will go through with the director and the GP and sort of explain the compositions because what you're saying is actually true. And a lot of designers don't design with composition either. Because, I mean,

Sometimes it's easier to learn more about the technical aspects of, you know, film or being a D.P. or designer or desire, whereas more like building, whereas I think you have to look at it from an artistic point. And I know sometimes people get frustrated with me because I'm asking for things. And they're like, oh, these technical reasons, and I said, well, I'm interested in the picture. And it really is the picture that is what goes on film. And so how we get the beautiful picture is the most important parts. So if we have to sort of come up with more difficult, challenging ways of doing things to get the picture, then maybe that's what we have to look at. Or maybe there is an easy way and we just haven't thought of it. But it's always trying to remember that you're making a picture. You're not sort of making a technical exercise. Yeah. The two things, I've said it.

There's a few things that I say repeatedly and it's only because I'm a simple man. But one of them is that oftentimes emotionally correct supersedes technically correct. Yes. Yes. And also sometimes, and this is also sometimes with choices, too, like there's a thing that's actually in real life and, you know, an environment that this is real, but it doesn't emotionally evoke to the audience what it is. And often it also isn't visually interesting or whatnot. Sometimes you just sort of have to say, okay, I acknowledge what is real, but I'm going to do this instead because it tells the story better, even though it's not real. And I had this one director who had this expression about film, which I kind of still talk to.

He says, like, film is, you know, a lie that tells the truth. So I sort of think of that. It's like, okay, well, this is a lie, but it actually is telling the story. Yeah. Well, the thing that Eric Mezershmidt said that it kind of stuck with me, I think it was the second time I entered it, was that no one watches a movie and leaves and goes, well, I'm glad they made their day. I could see that. I could tell visually that they made their day and good for them, you know? No one cares. They're there to see the image. I agree with that And it's also I mean sometimes I'll have fights with 80s with this

whereas like this location is the right location and they're like no it's a move and we're not going to make her day and blah blah blah and I sort of have to say and I mean they don't like this but it's like you don't there's no category for Oscar or Emmy

for the best schedule but they're for best productions of something and photography so I mean sometimes you know obviously especially now with everything's very budget conscious now so sometimes you have to relent

but you always still have to push just keep that in mind do you ADs are wonderful a great AD can absolutely save your shoot but those tough conversations do often have to happen well they do have to happen

and I mean sometimes you know you win a battle and sometimes you don't win a battle and I mean it just really depends on the circumstances of um and also sometimes you have to pick your battles and say okay this would been really great but it's i don't know half a page of work and maybe it's not going to make or break the show and then sometimes you have to say no this is actually important because this is going to make her break the show so you have to figure that out um i did want to talk about uh death and other details with a with a murder mystery i feel like great

track me if I'm wrong, your job becomes far more involved due to the fact that you have to put in little clues and stuff, not only for the cast, but for the audience. Like, you know, because everyone's playing along at home. Um, so talk to me about like kind of what those additional, um, roles kind of were for you to make sure that everything was like consistent and not too obvious, but still there that people could rewatch and all that kind of stuff. Well, I mean, I mean, the one thing about death and other details and I mean, watching the show, a lot of it is about perceptions and often a lot of scenes will be kind of repeated, but in different people's point of view. And there's always these small details that maybe are slightly different because it's talking about people's memories of things. Liza tell the truth.

That was one of the things that we had to be really careful of is that the details had to always be there, but sometimes some details were different. And it would be really working very closely with the writers and the showrunners to say, okay, this person remembers this in a different way. And so maybe, and I think there was a scene where, like, maybe they remember a shirt being green, but it was really pink or vice versa. And so it's always making sure those details are there. But also all the clues had to always be there no matter what sad you were doing. And it was really important to know the whole story, as much of the through line from the beginning to the end,

to know what the end result of the clue was going to be. And that involved me, I mean, I ferociously read everything. Anything that comes on my desk, I will read it. And I continue asking, like, can I see new outlines? Can I see, you know, new scripts? And it just is really important in particular with this type of thing because we need to really map out what all the details are well in advance of when the discovery of the audience has.

And, I mean, sometimes they'll be there for like several episodes before like the audience actually becomes aware of it and actually understands what the meaning is. And then going back to the sort of a skewed perception of things, we would also know where are the points you shifted things slightly because it's playing into someone's memory rather than into a reality. And I mean, and one of the things with that show is like it was definitely about, you know, looks can be deceiving. Things aren't necessarily always what they seem.

and again, it's about how each one of us sees a certain situation, and then you remember it later, and it's not always the same. I know, pardon me. I know on MindHunter, David Fincher had glued everything down that wasn't being interacted with for consistency's sake. Right, yeah. We did not do that, but we, but that's, Sounds like a really great idea.

I know. I saw, I was like, that's insane, but also kind of, that's pretty good. But how do you manage, you know, continuity? Like, are you just, you know, are we doing Polaroids, or do you just have a good eye for it? Is there someone that you have wrangling continuity? Well, basically, I often will have someone wrangling continuity, but we do have, I mean, we have onset dressers that take copious amounts of photos. and polarizers, some of them are just regular photos.

I mean, obviously nowadays, it's usually digital. Yeah, I guess it's not Polaroids anymore. Yeah, and make the film. Yeah, that would be great. But, yeah, I mean, digital pictures, it's like meticulously. And if, you know, there's any sort of lack of clarity, I mean, reviewing dailies, I mean, that's often, like, we would spend every day, the next day, we would do all the polls of the dailies to just make sure, in case things were

shifted or there was some sort of kind of a change director or that actor needed to make that we had that record of everything. So that was kind of what we do. And I would often have my art directors, a rental sister art director would be kind of tasked up to do that part. And then when we go to have to recreate it, we would enthusiastically sort of reference these polls that we have. You know, that just sparked a thought in me. Because I know this is the case with many other departments, but how has digital image acquisition

changed the way you work versus working with film? Or has it? I don't think it definitely has changed what I do particularly. I mean, I know obviously, well, maybe it has in a way, but it's been so long since it switched.

But I mean, obviously how things are filmed and the lighting and also the resolution of things has shipped it quite a bit. And I know the things like in the early days, I felt especially intelligent, kind of often were quite broad in a lot of ways and things would volunteer shadow and you wouldn't see it. But I mean, that's not the case anymore. And I feel it's really important. And that's part of why, like, I really work with just like a lot of details and sets because it really shows up. Also, it, it can also change when we're

working with the DOPs and the lighting people, like the types of fixtures you get, the types of Colors you pick. I mean, that's the other thing I was thinking about the other day, is like certain colors used to be really, really problematic. Like, for instance, red. And I mean, it had been something recently where I've been doing a lot of red, and I was just thinking, oh, wow, you know, like 15 years ago, this would have been just like almost impossible because certain colors would bloom too much, or they'd bleed on camera. And they don't do that anymore. So that's sort of where things changed in a big way as well. Yeah. Are your textual decisions different? I think my textual decisions are really more specific to how things are lit, but I do think textures are really important, especially now, because you can see the surfaces in a much more clear way than maybe was in the past. And I mean, sometimes if you don't want things to be very clear, like if you want things to fall away, then maybe have less texture, Maybe you make them darker, but if you want it to have some sort of corporal reality to it,

then I think it's really important to sort of look at specific textures. And I mean, one of the areas where I did a lot of texture and kind of a really sort of experiments was when I did the hundred. I mean, we had so many decaying buildings and things. And, you know, a lot of times, like, it used to be which is painted on, whereas now you actually put a texture on and then you paint it. So it looks like it's crumbling or like it feels it's crumbling and it has actually a three-dimensional quality to it. So, yeah, there's this, the need to do show and tell.

Do I even have it? There's this book. Oh, where do you go? I was given this great book. It's gone. I don't know where it went. I was given this great book of it was some guy went to these like decaying buildings. buildings and just took these dead on, I think it was in Cuba and it's just these gorgeous.

Well, I'll have to like, I'll DM it to you on Instagram. It's a great book, but I just love looking at it because the textures on there like are so theatrical and it's like this guy just found them. What's amazing how much stuff you can find and also when you start looking at decay and I mean, I spent like five years on that series and you sort of almost become like an aficionado on decay. Like you sort of start to look at the beauty of this, oh, like there's these beautiful colors and mold and all sorts of things like that. I mean, I kind of, on that project, I kind of worked on the concept of what I called beautiful ugly, sort of that French

expression. And it's sort of like, oh, there's like, it's kind of disgusting. But then when you look at it's like, oh, this color is nice and this color is nice. And then how it kind of blooms and all the mold spores, make shapes and all that type of stuff. So it is kind of interesting that way. Yeah. You know, a little bit ago you're talking about color. And in the boat in death, a lot of warmth, a lot of wood tones. How do you keep it from becoming a monotone? You know, because it is a very, especially, you know, going back to the set of photography, it's very beautiful. It's like a classic Hollywood kind of look to everything. But there's still good contrast. Like, how are you maintaining that? Is it just in lighting or like what are your accent choice? or whatever. I am an elegant in my questions. Yeah. Well, I kind of know where you're going with this.

So I always do counterpoints in terms of color. So no matter what set I'm doing this, I will always do hot, like warm and cool palettes within the same space. So I mean, for the most part, they would be a cool palette somewhere introduced into a set. So we did play with a lot of greens because that counterpointed a cooler palette against the wood. But I mean, in this case, we're going with green, green also, even though it's a cool color, it also has a warm quality to it. Also, the play with lights and darks, even if you're all playing into warm tones, then there were some sweets we did like, you know, topes and like we did a lot of pale pinks and quarrels that counterpointed to the wood.

but because they were different values that it also created breakup. So it didn't really sort of kind of become overwhelming. And then I also think it's really important to sort of accent rooms with neutral, those like blacks and gray and white, well, maybe not white, but, you know, silvers and things so that it always has the grounding element to it. Yeah. And how we kind of worked on that show. Just always made sure there was some sort of counterpoint,

even if it was a total shift or like a, going from warm to cool, but always there was something present that broke all the wood up, so it didn't kind of become, because I know what you're saying, it can often become sort overwhelmingly brown wood if you're not careful. Yeah, I mean, that's something that is like a cinematography tip as well, as like if you've got a room that's completely lit with red light, it's important to put a slash of neutral light in there just to say that this is red, because otherwise your brain just goes, well, that's black, and white now, you know.

Exactly. And, you know, that's also the other thing, and I'm going to give kudos to our DOPs on death and other details. I mean, they had a really strong lighting concept as well with the show. And, I mean, really, we kind of worked with certain color palettes to sort make sure that everything didn't just sort of devolve into just sort of a warm sort of haze of brown. So, and it was also a lot of sort of very strong chops of light in that the way it was lit with like sometimes you'll see sets where the portals are like very strongly lit and if they would bring light into the sort of darker warm spaces and and that type of thing

and sort of a little bit of like color and sometimes it'll be a bit of blue. Sometimes it would be just warmer tones, but it would be different. So, I mean, I have to say, again, the way it was lit was really quite lovely. Yeah. What are some things that DPs do to make your job easier and harder when you're developing these sets and looks? Obviously, once you're shooting, that's a different story. But in pre-production specifically, like how, what's your guys is kind of not specifically this one, although feel free to tell specific stories, but just kind of in general, what does that conversation look like?

Well, I mean, I always do have a really strong conversation in every project with the DOP because one of the things that you probably know this as a DOP yourself, but every DOP has a different way of lighting and there's some very radical different ways of lighting that really impact how production design is done. So one of the first questions I always ask the DOP is what's your opinion of white because for some DOP is white is like the devil and they just like oh and and the other DEP is like oh we like white because we make it use it as a sort of bounce or whatever so I think

things like that really help knowing what that is and also the sort of every DOP has a different idea of what lights should be like some people always want some sort of a shade on it so it becomes luminous and some people like dark shades so that it becomes directional and some people like to actually see the filament in the light bulb. And so it's up knowing what that sort of system is. And I always want to make sure I know this at the beginning of any project. So I can kind of factor all that in. And also just sort of ideas of a direction of what the sort of lighting and sort of the sort

of own that the show is going to be is really going to be helpful to me because I, the color choices can be really dictated by what the tone is. because if we want it to be light and bright, or if it's moody and sourcy, and also if a DOP tends to push a lot of light in, maybe you'll go darker tones to maintain some sort of idea of color, whereas some DOPs, I mean, can work really specifically whites.

I mean, I did recently a television show that we didn't have a huge amount of money, and a lot of spaces that we had to go to, were white and the DOP was able to sort of make that into a style and I think knowing stuff like that really helped make that project really successful and but conversely if I'm scouting I know the DOP does not like white I will either hopefully have resources to change that or just try and choose locations that don't cut white like no dark colors and various things so it's just clear and understanding of what is happening

and also just the way things like in terms of window treatments are really important to know how DOPs handle with window treatments and some DOPs don't like are fine with bare windows and like they want to see out and some DOPs it's just really problematic

for them especially if there's shooting in a location for an extended period time and there's a lot of like change of the day and you know daylight shifts a lot too so So it's just knowing It's really about knowing and communication that's the key that makes it easier

And then it you know Sometimes if that communication doesn't happen Then it becomes hard So I think that would be my thing When Obviously for a film You're only having a conversation with Generally one

cinematographer But on like for instance this show There's four Well I mean Three four Well we I mean for the ballast of series there was two that I dealt with, but it was really kind of interesting because I've been on shows where we have multiple DOPs and they, sometimes they can have radically different, different styles.

And I mean, the most extreme situation when I was on Smallville, we had a DOP that likes to see film it and then we had another DOP who didn't. And often, even in standing sets, like we would have to change all the light fixtures depending on which DOP was shooting the episode. So it's just, again, you have to know who you have. And I mean, or I mean, in the perfect world, the DOPs have had conversations between themselves so they can sort of basically have a determine what the look and the style is so that there's a consistency. And I think that's when the shows are really like good because I think sometimes if you watch a show and you can almost see who, which DOP did which episode. I mean, maybe, I mean, sometimes that's not always the best, I don't think, but so, yeah, it can be a challenge having multiple DOPs, but. Yeah, how does that, how does that affect your, okay, how does that affect your, that continuity issue? If we're constant, like, is there a way that you're able to kind of smooth out those drastic sort of lighting or like you're saying, having to swap out fixtures and stuff?

Is there, is there like a method to maintain it or do you just kind of grit your teeth and deal with it? I think you kind of grit your teeth and deal with it. But hopefully, I mean, sometimes you do have to just say no if it's really a big, specific issue that happens. But, and that's also something like as a designer on a television show, I'm probably one of the few people that does every single episode. So sometimes you have to be the keeper of continuity as well. So you kind of have to negotiate and sometimes say, okay, I can do this if I do this. Or sometimes, I mean, there are moments where you're just like,

I think that's too big of a jump. We're constantly going to have to assume we're going to have to work around that and not do that. So if there's something else that you can do, that's something that may be a conversation has to happen as well. Yeah. The, uh, oh, that thought's gone. We're going to pivot.

What did your, um, that'll happen to me, probably once an interview. What was your sort of research system like for death and other details? Because I know, you know, obviously it's very Art Deco. I heard in a different interview you did that like there was kind of maybe a hard line at like 1955. Even though it's a modern show, it's like nothing after then. Yeah. So basically one of the things that I mean, I actually loved the research. That was my favorite part, Beth, and other details in a lot of ways.

Learning's fun. Learning is really fun. So we had, I think it was in the script. It was 1955, like, actually in the script, was in dialogue. So, but what I did was I started by doing a lot of research on all the sort of the ships at the 1930s and 40s. And, I mean, there was all these amazing, amazing ships that were being built at that time period. And one of the things that was super interesting is because there were so many shipping

shipping companies in different countries and they're almost all in competition with each other and what we would do is they would build what they was the most beautiful ship and then the other company would then build another ship

then became the most beautiful ship and they really pushed their design and I mean they would hire the best designers of the time, best interior designers and they would always be like trying to come up with some more spectacular version of a ship and it was just really exciting to sort of see

because I started looking at ships as early as 1912 and then all through the 20s and the 30s all these different ships in every incarnation of the ship and how the next ship was the most beautiful ship and this ship was the most beautiful ship and there were so many details and so many things that was really inspiring to sort of introduce into the show

and also these ships were They weren't utilitarian, and I mean, they were, in the sense, they were ships, but, I mean, they were masterpieces. I mean, there was so much energy putting it into the interior design that the rooms became art pieces, not just places to stay or live or do. I mean, and it was also really interesting the time period, too, because it was a transition between, like, really traditional, like, 19th century design, which was a lot of, you know, panel of rooms and very traditional furniture. And then it was this very dynamic modernist view coming in. So you'd have panel room, but you'd have these super graphic floors or carpets that look like so modern that you would look at them today and say it was like modern today. And then the other thing that was interesting is a lot of technologies were starting to develop like lighting systems that we're very familiar with. But for that time period, we're like very new.

And a lot of the furniture was like a lot of it's so very familiar to. was, but for that time period, it was really new and it was all mixed in. And that was the other thing, it was mixing. The styles were very mixed as well because, I mean, Art Deco and Art Nouveau were very transitional styles from a traditional 19th century style to what has become modern style. So it was really interesting just to see it, because you could actually see the line of how things developed by doing this research. Right. And also something that fascinates me is just how small these cruise liners actually were in comparison to what we now think of as like a modern cruise ship modern cruise ship is like you know the empire state building on its side and these things were like

you know dingies almost and but at the same time i mean when you see them they were like floating palaces like um uh because i mean when you see them in comparison like you see like a you know often you'll see some sort of diagram where you see the different ships and and yes they were minutes ago in comparison to these new ships now. But for the time, I mean, you would have, like there was, like there's one ship called the Normandy, which was at one point the most beautiful ship. And it had this dining room. It had a 40 foot ceiling.

It was like 120 feet long. It was 60 feet wide. I mean, they had these bounds made of like special translucent porcelain. It was crazy. It was just so huge. And it must have been like just when you walked in. as a passenger, it was just like, it was like overwhelmed by the sheer vastness of it.

But now, I mean, it would probably seem, well, I mean, in that particular room, it would be big, but I mean, these ships were considerably smaller for sure. Yeah. The, in my head, it's kind of like, uh, even on these larger ships, I haven't been on a cruise ship in 20 years, but, uh, it's funny.

You know, you think about older cars, how they, they feel more sleek, but it's only because all the safety features have been added. in newer cars where it makes it just kind of fatter. I'm wondering if part of that, too, is with the size of new boats, that it's a lot of it is just like safety features or HVAC or whatever.

You know, all the rooms get smaller. Well, it's probably the is the case. And I also think that just the numbers of people they try and put on the ships are probably quite different as well. You know, I mean, you know, if you think about a ship like the Titanic, I mean, have 3,000 people on it, which, I mean, in comparison, like a new ship, you might have 10,000 people on this ship. ship so it's also like and also the different types of things they would have on the ship too like

you know often they have swimming pools but they'd be quite small whereas like now they're at these vast pools and there'd be amusement parks and there'd be like multiple dining rooms and also at a mall yes a mall and and enough rooms for 10,000 people so that's probably also what makes the big um i was wondering what kind of things you do not compulsively obviously every gig is different but what are some things that maybe people can do to up the production value of maybe their more modest budget

projects? I think one of the things that I mean and sometimes I often do these things too and even on bigger budgets you have to do it but I think I think it's really working with your director and working with your DOP and just figuring out what exactly is going to be in the shot

because you can spend a lot of money of stuff that never actually gets on film so I think it's really important so you can get some direction of what the sort of edges of frame are that really helps especially when you're in a lower budget situation and maybe it is only like a too well set

rather than a full set I mean I like to design everything but sometimes you don't have the money and you still want to make sure it looks great so that's a way of doing it The other thing that is also something like that I did do this on death and other details is a lot of sets become modular and you redress them and you change them. So for instance, on death and other details, a lot of the suites were the same suite, but I would pull out how to design it so I can pull walls out and change but windows in a wall or a bookshelf in a wall or different art in a wall and then we would change the furniture and you would feel it was a different space. And that's a really great way of stretching your budget as well.

Well, and I imagine, too, for a cruise ship, it's easier to forgive sweets that looks similar because that would probably be the truth anyway. It was. And I mean, I know that it was at one point they were saying, well, it's just like a hotel the word exactly saying it. I mean, I didn't really like that idea because, I mean, you want a great character. But, I mean, it definitely gave us a little bit more freedom for a bit of sort of continuity a little bit of their familiarity, but I mean, we did actually change quite a lot in each suite.

But, yeah, I mean, it could have easily been just everyone lived in the same room, potentially. But conceptually, you know, that would work. But obviously in another project that would probably not work at all. I think also that the other thing was when you're on a lower budget, I think it's really important for the designer to examine the space and really kind of go back to what I was talking about, beginning to find your access lines and figure what are the best points of a space you're in and really focus and highlight them in art like in your design but also like working with your your DOP and your director and sort of say okay this angle I think is really gorgeous and so maybe

we can kind of sort of focus our sort of blocking and things in this direction and that's also then communicating like what you're seen as an artistic person so that you can help create the composition because um you know not everyone can do composition and if you're one of the people who can it's like it's really good to share that with other people yeah there's you know it's funny i think it was eric again but someone had mentioned something that once again stuck with me which was in any given room obviously that you haven't built there's probably only two good angles and uh i was just recently out a gig i was a corporate interview thing and we were in a conference room in a in a medical building so it was just absolutely the worst and of course i had to do

three interviews in there and i and one of them certainly suffered and then a little bit later eric told me that and i was like yep that is my exact uh experience with that room right well i mean i think that's there's truths about i mean depending on what the space is um and how much resources you have and how much you're going to be in there i mean i think part of my job is also to identify those bad angles as much as the good angles and if you have resources then you make the bad angles good and if you don't then you just make sure everybody knows maybe we don't want to shoot this direction we don't have I know we're coming up on time here and you're at the airport so I want to make sure cognizant of that

but I did want to ask I had heard in a separate interview that you basically demoed half of a wall of a studio oh yes So when we were building our set, our outer deck set, we were on this very strange studio space that was like incredibly narrow and extremely long. It was like the stage was like 480 feet long and it was 30 feet wide. It was one feet high. And I'm sure we're like, how are we putting a set in here? And we have the long promenades that go along the ship. decided we're going to put that there but you know we still didn't have enough space even though

that it was like maybe 16 or 20 feet wide we needed to put a blue screen in there and we didn't the spill so what i ended up doing was literally um there was partition walls there and then it's just like literally started cutting holes in them so that can then have build little set pieces on the other side of the wall so we can have people coming in and out like they're coming in out from the main body to ship. And then the other part that was actually funny is that it was where we did a double height, we had a staircase that went to an upper level. And there was another floor. And so I matched the floor level so I can then cut more holes on the floor above. And so I kind of probably out like 50, 60 feet of wall eventually, which I think we had to put back at the end. But yeah,

it was just too bad. How do you clear that with the studio owner? And also, what's the material you're cutting it? Is it just wood? The upper part was it was sort of a corrugated tin, and then we had to cut like all sorts of metal studs out. And so it was fine. It was a partition wall. It was fine.

And then the lower part was this weird glass partition wall that was there because it originally had been a printing press, and it was sort of where people would watch. watched the printing. And in some ways, it wasn't helpful for them. So they were happy to take that part out. But we did have to infill the holes in the upper wall, the metal wall. I imagine that's not a common practice. It's not super common, but we kind of worked in the same stage as a show altered carbon had been there. And they kind of cut. Oh, that's a great show. They cut holes in the walls

and we're like, well, if they did, we can do it. So I love how this. It's like the building of the studio of Sisyphus, not Sisyphus, what's the ship? You know what I'm talking about? I'm not sure. Yeah. But you know what I'm talking about like you build the enough parts in a ship and it's like, is it the same ship?

It's cut enough, cut enough holes in the studio. Is it the same studio? Yeah, exactly. So, yeah. So that's kind of why we did that. I was like, oh, well, they did it. And it worked. And I'm sure some of the walls I took down, they're happy because now they don't have

these weird walls anymore. Right. Well, I really appreciate you taking the extra time to chat with me and fit me into your schedule. Well, thank you for accommodating my schedule, which was a bit of a panic today, but it's good that we were able to talk now. Yeah, it was really fun. And next time you do a show, I'd love to have you back on and keep chatting.

Okay. Well, we'll keep in touch. It's really great. Awesome. Enjoy the rest of your day, man. Take care. You too. Bye now.

Bye. Frayman Reference is an Al-Bot production. It's produced and edited by me, Keny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can go to frame and refpod.com and follow the link to buy me a coffee. It's always appreciated. And as always, thanks for listening. I'm going to be able to be.