Frame & Reference Podcast - 147: "Mary & George" DP Alexander Dynan

Episode Date: June 20, 2024

This week I'm excited to be joined by Alexander Dynan to talk about his work on the Starz show Mary & George! His previous work includes incredible projects like The Card Counter, Billions, and First Reformed. Enjoy! Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.frameandrefpod.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for everything F&R You can now support Frame & Reference directly on Patreon! Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coast's leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠⁠Filmtools.com⁠⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello, and welcome to this another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Candy Macmillan, and you're listening to episode 147 with Alexander Dinan, DP of Mary and George. Enjoy. Have you been watching anything recently? I saw the Mad Max Ben, Giroza last night. Yeah, I did. So that's, I thought that was coming out later. Or did you get a cool screen?

Or was it just? No, no, it just, it's out. It's out in New York. So, yeah, it was good. I mean, you know, it's a big, it's a big, big movie with a lot of big effects and it's just fun to, you know, put some popcorn in your mouth and, you know, lie back and enjoy it all. There's a lot of story involved in, actually, which I wasn't expecting. But I enjoyed, you know, I've just come off of basically working every day since the end of December.

So I find it very hard to watch movies that are not reference points to what I'm working on. I'm kind of enjoying, you know, I'm going to go watch challengers and I'm going to go watch like chimera and, you know, I'm just going to go enjoy what's out there right now because I've been feeling a little starved. Yeah, that always seems to be like the thing, right? Like if you're working, you can't watch anything, but if you're not working, sometimes you're exhausted by film. I'm just going to. Oh, no. No, I mean, I love going to movie theater. So it's one of those are no great pleasures of life. So yeah, I miss it when I can't do it. And then when I get the chance to do it, I'll do double, triple features. You know, New York is great like that because

you know, you don't have to drive so you can just go to IFC for an early show and then go to Angelica or go to film forum or, you know, any of that is like all in a 15 minute radius. So it's it's great to just kind of go and catch up and watch a bunch of things old and new. And, you know, they sit in different ways and you know i don't know find it hugely inspiring yeah i've got a pretty nice amc near me um that's like built in a mall so but it's like the nicest mall in the world so uh i i've i've done a couple double features there where it's like all right three o'clock i watched the re-release of alien yeah that night i you know had a couple a couple drinks and then came back and watched a fall guy if you haven't seen the fall guy i guess it's on streaming now it was in theaters

for two fucking seconds but uh the fall guy is excellent oh that's awesome it's so fun yeah action packed i'm sure yeah and it incredibly meta as well like if you work in film it's and it's like hits a little harder i see i see um yeah yeah i'm sure the like the ridley scott of it all impacted your viewing a fall guy in some way i don't know you know like it's uh it was It's funny how things start to kind of blend together. You make realizations based on one movie or, you know, I love a double feature. Yeah. That was actually for the first season of this show.

I used to at the end ask everyone to invent a double feature with their film and something else. And what ended up happening was, A, I was interviewing far more TV DPs than film DPs. Or not that, you know, for that specific. project and so that's hard to double feature and then two uh no one no one had like a good answer not that they didn't have good answers but everyone was always like oh fuck and then would sit there for like five minutes and i was like all right this isn't good searching television yeah yeah yeah that is some solid television i love it yeah what were you not what were you working on but what type of stuff were you watching for whatever you

you know were your reference points for the whatever this past project was yeah Yeah, so there's actually another project with the same director as Mary and George, Oliver Hermanus. So, yeah, it's funny. It's another period film, a love story, but sort of set in early 20th century. It goes to the 60s, but, you know, mostly majority of it is set in early 20th century. And, you know, reference-wise, it's funny, he's not necessarily someone who references a lot of movies or TV shows. He's someone who references paintings. He's someone who references photography.

He puts together like a really beautiful deck of images as a starting point, both on Mary and George and also for this movie History of Sound. And so that's always the starting point. So it's more, it's also more, I don't want a distraction. You know, I remember I was making this movie first-reformed, Spall Schrader movie. Yeah, yeah. And, yeah, Ethan Hawk. And, you know, we're shooting that movie in 1331.

And a friend of mine invites me to, you know, a beautiful 35-mill print of 2001. And I was just like, I'm so sorry, I can't. I can't, I can't even think in widescreen right now. I can't, like, I can't. It's so nerdy, but, you know, I just, I can't, I can't get my head in that place. I just, I have to, you know, I have to just, like, double down on Brasson right now, you know? Right, right, right.

Yeah, because would you find, do you think you'd find that if you started even dipping your toe in the widescreen zone, you'd start getting frustrated with the limitations of shooting 133? Or was it more just like artistically you didn't want to get, try to build a composition where it doesn't exist? I mean, can it be both? You know, I think it's both, you know? Like, it's neither... Exactly. It's like, oh, I'm missing the ability to shoot anamorphic.

And I'm also kind of polluting my brain with some ideas that I kind of can't get access to, you know? 1331 is such a portraiture-based aspect ratio and widescreen well. Beautiful portraiture aspect ratio. show too. I mean, it's proved many times by Brent Tarantino. Still, just the scope of it, and you just want to show so much more, you know. So, yeah, it's, it's, it's definitely both. You know, I don't, I don't mean to like sound like kind of monk-like, but, you know, it's sort of, I don't know, just kind of get in a headspace and, you know, I don't know, maybe someday I'll be able to watch all the movies and work on.

movies and feel like it's all going to be all right but in that current moment it never feels like that yeah yeah it's fun i don't know why but i'm reminded of when a dark night came out and everyone was like oh yeah he's ledger really got into that role and like oh that's was and then all the stories from set were like no he'd be like all scary and then he'd turn around and talk about like skateboarding and music and stuff and like smoke a cigarette he was he was pretty able to detach you know right um completely completely did you what uh what this is a leading question did you go to film school and which school was it um i didn't go to a traditional film school um i did do some film theory classes okay um but my my primary

focus was was actually documentary anthropology um oh okay cool that that's more of my background so um and and film theory is obviously very different than knowing what a cinematography is knowing how to shoot a movie. So all of that, I learned on the job. You know, I started with documentaries as sort of very much a one-man band. I had a grant to go make documentaries. And sort of bought a Panasonic DVX-100. Great camera.

Yeah, great camera. And some, you know, a road mic of some sort. and mounted on the top and, you know, just sort of tried to go and figure it out. And then a friend of mine had heard that I was doing documentary work and had a commercial that needed sort of a documentary aesthetic, or it was a very documentary approach. It was, you know, going to a factory and seeing how scarves are made. And so he hired me.

And we started making these sort of short documentaries and the company that we were working for liked the work. And so that became a foray into shooting commercials. And he had a small company. And so we were doing a lot, you know, producing, directing, shooting, learning what a cinematographer was, really. And as the responsibilities grew, I found that I really enjoyed shooting. And then from then on, it's just been on the job training, you know. I had the very sort of wonderful opportunity to work with Paul Schrader. And I shot four movies for him.

And I think that was probably my film school, if anything. Yeah. Well, normally I don't ask, but just the way you were talking kind of reminded me of everyone I've ever spoken to. It went to AFI. So I was really just expecting this AFI answer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The theory background definitely holds up to that idea. I applied.

I didn't get in, you know. I didn't get in to AFI. But that's okay. That changed my life in a different way. It made me move to New York and try to make a living, you know, ultimately. So, yeah, so, you know. I feel like the, I feel like the quote unquote, on-site training is probably the most effective. because, you know, whenever people talk about film school, like online or whatever,

like students, I'm always like, yeah, go for it, but also just make sure you're making shit. Yeah. Yeah. It's nice if you get, like, hired on for something, but a lot of times you've got to be the change you want to see in the world and make your own gigs, which is incredible. Like, I'm not a director, certainly not a writer. So, you know, like getting started was incredibly difficult and I couldn't find, like, the right, you know, mesh of a person. personalities. Yeah, absolutely. No. I think you're completely right. Absolutely. I mean, it's difficult. You make a lot of mistakes, but, you know, I have a few mentees that I work with

through my union and then outside of my union. And the thing I just tell all of them is like, you know, you have, you have an iPhone, you know, go make stuff. You know, it wasn't like when I was coming up, even to have the gift of DVCAM, you know, the gift of this Panasonic, which was all of my life savings, essentially. Yeah, they went for like six grand. Yeah. I have an XL too. That's amazing.

Yeah. Yeah. But, but yeah, I mean, you know, just to be able to see back what you were doing at a fraction of the cost of shooting 16 or 35 or whatever, you know, or 8 was hugely helpful. You know, to be able to log, remember log and capturing, you know, to be able to log and capture your footage and say, oh, interesting. If I actually put someone in the shade for an interview, it's going to be a lot better. You know, I can actually cut this thing. You know, if I actually give myself another angle on hands or whatever it may be, I can actually make something that flows.

You know, it's all these things that the theoretical is one thing and sitting in class. is one thing, but the physical doing of our profession is so important to the creation of it. Yeah. That's honestly something that I try to get like, I'm going to sound like old man screaming at clouds, but like kids are always like, I can't just use an iPhone. No, it'll take me seriously. And I'm like, no one took, first of all, the DVX was only like 2008. Yeah. And it wasn't that far away. And remember like having 24P was a huge deal? Yeah, absolutely. And then the second SD cards came out when you didn't have to actually use tape was like,

oh my God, the entire industry has changed. I know, I know. It's true. Absolutely go use this. The iPhone 15 makes sick images. Like, don't. But also, like, even if you're not happy with how it physically looks, you'll just figure out, oh, what is the 180 degree rule?

You know, like, what are these like kind of tenets of cinema making that, are how you do it you know so I don't know for me it's like I think and maybe this is because I started in documentaries and that's like still a really important part of my process but it's like what is there naturally when you when you put a camera on and and how does it work and then everything else kind of like is just knowledge based on that you know yeah well and especially like once you get one thing I do always suggest to students is like once you get going like make sure to edit your own stuff because as a DP you'll realize real quick like what shots you actually want to use

which ones actually kicked which ones you wish you got all that kind of that's oh absolutely absolutely and you know Schrader is is editing it all in his head which is absolutely amazing because you start to get into very complex scenes and see someone so knowledgeable and had made so many films and not that I learned that but I did start to think about that. And there are certain directors who will get quite annoyed because I'll be like, well, you really need that because what are you going to cut to? And some people, you know, are like, well, you know, leave that thought out of it. And some people are like, oh, I really appreciate that. So, you know, listen, it's it's both. But, um, but ultimately, um, yeah,

kind of funny. Yeah. I find you fascinating if someone would be like, I don't want to work, don't bother me with the idea of what are we going to cut to? Yeah, I mean, but, you know, I, these are also, you know, directors who, certain directors have a really incredible idea of what, um, what the final thing is going to be. And, and when they do, you kind of got to get out of the way, you know, um, especially if you, if it's kind of like a tried and true thing, you know, if it's like someone, you know, their work, you know, know what they what they have you know in their minds you just have to you know think roll with it yeah just roll with it and enjoy the process and influence it where you can or say

what about this or you know whatever it may be but but sometimes yeah it's just better to kind of roll with it yeah was documentary always the goal and then you kind of got into you know film and television or was is it all just kind of the same mush for you Yeah, I mean, I would say like, you know, as a 20-something person with no idea what they were going to do in life, was documentary the goal? I don't know. You know, it was it was the goal for then, you know, it was the ability to go and travel. It was to travel literally with a lens, you know, not to be a tourist, you know, whatever that means, even though you are a tourist. You know, it was sort of all based on those ideas. wanting to see more, you know. And then the sort of film and television thing came out of, oh, what is a cinematographer? Oh, I enjoy.

Because, you know, doing those film theory classes, we would watch a bunch of movies. And we would watch the great movies, you know. And I don't think there are many people that watch Citizen Kane and go like, hmm, yeah, I can do that. like it's very hard or the kids in college who are like yeah that's my favorite film actually

that one not Jurassic Park and I shut the fuck up no it's not it's always Jurassic Park by the way like the Jurassic Park is the solve for everything it's one of the most brilliant movies ever and it's it's so yeah I'm a huge admirer of Jurassic Park

you can talk like you can talk about all the great European films all you want and I love them I love them I love all art house films I love Belitara, I love all the weird stuff but also ultimately it's Jurassic Park you know is that like your favorite film I just

know it's not it's not I just think it's like you can learn so much from it you know 100% my favorite film is Fat City sure yeah yeah that's that's it for me that's just stealing from Conrad Hall that's all I'm trying to do

on this earth really yeah aren't we all yeah um yeah sorry i interrupted you with that i forgot what i was i forgot what i was saying um we were talking about uh you said citizen cane and then i got debrad oh yeah yeah yeah yeah so i mean i think that watching movies uh as a young person is incredibly scary actually when you're when you're thinking oh this could be something that um i enjoy uh let's study it let's figure it out Like when you're trying to kind of like figure out how to crack whatever hypothetical code, I think that it's really difficult to watch these great movies.

And I remember feeling very paralyzed because the only thing that I think, you know, I'm not from a filmmaking family. I didn't grow up any even industry adjacent, you know, my closest sort of touch point to filmmaking or film is basically going to the movie theater. You know, movie theater near the town that I'm from Schoolage Corner movie theater in Brooklyn, Massachusetts, you know, big shout out. But, you know, that place was sort of the closest I would ever get to film knowledge. And then you think, oh, I like this. It's interesting. And you're like,

oh, I have to be a director, because director is kind of the only thing that we ever really hear about, you know, if you're not living in L.A. or in a film family or, you know, something like that. And to look at these great films and think, oh, I'm also a director with a perspective is just go, whoa, like, how could I possibly do this? So I think that documentary was a way for me to get my hands dirty and start to work without really knowing

what I was working towards. And then finding cinematography, finding a craft, a technical craft, a technical and artistic craft, also helped me sort of through to navigate that path and to kind of latch on to something that was much more approachable or at least worked better for my mind, you know? Because, you know, and I tell a lot of directors this

when I sort of am talking about work or, you know, interviewing for a job or whatever, is like, you know, my job, I'm not, it's not that I'm not a creative person. It's that, like, I'm not an originator of ideas. Right. That, like, to think, I'm Orson-Wells, I'm going to shoot Citizen Kane, Rosebud, well, you know, who came up with that, who knows. But regardless, you know, that's nowhere to be found, right? I think that my specialty, my ability is one that's to be a mirror.

You know, I function best as a mirror. I function as someone who takes the original, that original brilliant idea that you read in a script and then figures out how to reflect that back, both from a technical standpoint, but also from a creative standpoint, oh, you've got this idea. Well, what if we did it this way?

Like, what if we did in a much smaller amount of shots? Would that be interesting? What if we did is one? You know, like, these are the things that inspire me. And I think that, like, whether or not documentary was always, it. It's like documentary was the lived example of how I could figure out how to get from a kid who knows nothing with no real discernible skills to a cinematographer, you know, working

cinematographer. Whether I still have discernible skills or not, it's a whole different thing. But, you know, that's, I think that's how, that's the through line, if anything. Yeah. No, that's, you're speaking my my truth there because it's the same same thing like you can't i think the biggest problem was i wanted to get into movies and didn't want to be a director because i was because i i think as a child i instinctively knew or a teenager whatever uh instinctively knew i don't know how to do all of that yeah so i just started looking for anything and landed on cinematography I've learned since then that I probably should have gotten

into props and special effects because that's like what actually excited because the movies I loved were like the Matrix and obviously Star Wars and you know Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Packer everything that have these really

fantastical things goings-ons but yeah being able to have like that find that technical skill that you can apply and kind of almost in a way reward other people with your knowledge is very gratifying.

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And, I mean, it's, it's, you know, it's also cool to realize that these things are made by collaborators. You know, it's not one person with the vision. Even though one person is credit for the vision, one person takes all the blame and all the fame, you know, which is what it is. It's fine by me. That being said, you know, it's the collaborative process between, you know, cinematography, production design, and costume. the director that makes it what it is and all of those things obviously trickle down into so many other different departments and so many other different kind of perspectives on it all but um the sort of

carney family you know mentality um i find really wonderful and uh you know you come and you you put up your tent and you know try to make some magic and and move on you know yeah did you find that you took to being a department head easily, or were there kind of maybe some stumbling blocks when it came to like having to learn how to manage so many personalities at once? Yeah. I mean, I don't know if anyone doesn't have any stumbling blocks or anyone feels like 100% good about their management style. I mean, you know, none of us went to business school. I was like a majority of us didn't go to business school. Actively avoided it.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I'm sorry, Dad. But, you know, I think that, yeah, it's so tricky. And I'm still figuring it out so much so. And the politics of it, the making people feel good, making people feel bad, you know, it's all complex. And I don't know, I don't know if I'm ever winning at it. Hopefully I'm getting better at it. I'm being more honest about it, but, you know, ultimately, um, there are just so many different types of people that you encounter and all those people need and want different things from you. Um, and yes, there's like this coat of professionalism over the whole thing, but ultimately it's just like people being people and trying to navigate that and, you know, like that's as hard as it is in real life. Yeah. Oh. That's voice cracked.

Yeah, because I've thought, I've been thinking about that recently. That's kind of why I asked because the idea for some reason that in film, you know, I've only worked a couple quote unquote real jobs and only one of them was in an office and it was for ABC. So, you know, but there is kind of a weird thing where it's like we all kind of get into the creative arts generally to do something different and not be traditional. It's very punk rock of everyone to want to do that. for the most part except maybe producers um and yet there's still that weird like on the one hand

we're all going to be like you said the traveling carney show but on the other hand there's this veneer of professionalism that you have to put forward even if that's not how you feel whereas you know art is feeling first and then and then everyone's job on set is to be you know a respectable human being, which obviously we all strive to be. But it's, it's an interesting dichotomy that sometimes meets specifically, but a lot of people like have trouble squaring, you know, you want to like let fly that this isn't working. You know, you want to yell at someone because you're like this, you know, you're fucking up all

of this, but you have to like cool it down and whatever, you know. I mean, but both ways. You know, I've had crews that not have preferred. to be yelled at, but proves that the only way to motivate is to be yelled at. And I've had crews where that is completely the wrong approach. And it's like, how do you know where you land? You know, how do you know even what generation of people you're talking to? You know, this sort of all has to change because, you know, our industry has gone through so many different types of iterations. And it's like, where are you in that spectrum at the current moment, you know? Yeah. I have actually

actually the opposite problem where I've been told by my buddy Nick. I didn't realize this. I mean, I knew it, but he's worked on a lot bigger films than I have, you know, documentaries, actually. But he's produced a bunch of shit. And he was like, hey, we're going to hire you for this gig. You're going to go out and film these remotes, basically, like testimonials. And he goes, just one thing. All these people are like Titans of Industry.

And I'm only saying it because you're you. Don't talk too much. Because I'm like, I'm walking in and I'm just like, you know, everybody's friend, you know, hey, he's going to be like, you know, whatever, Mark Cuban. Just don't, you don't need to be his friend. Right, right. He doesn't want to be yours. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But what if he does?

Yeah. We could go to games together. Yeah. I love the Mavericks. Yeah. But, yeah, it is hard. But then again, you know, if you're friends with everyone and you do a good job and you get hired on the next gig, as long. Yeah. A weirdo.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's there's, there's, there's a lot of truth to that for sure, you know. But yeah, there's there's, there's a lot of, yeah, there's a lot of different ways to go about managing people. And some of them are good and some of them are bad. And you don't realize that they're bad till you kind of get to reflect on it. But I do think though, and this is something that like I'm sort of actively trying, it's like, I do think that as a head of department, it is important to bring positivity to set. Even if, you know, it's like, it's bad. You know, even if you're in a bad situation, even if, you know, you're up to your knees in mud and it sucks and it's raining.

And, you know, like, I still think, like, you know, how you spend your days is how you spend your life. And if you can bring some positivity to set consistently, even on the days that you're feeling bad, it does buoy people. it does allow you to have just a better time of it all, you know, because, you know, filmmaking is really hard, you know, I mean, we love to pat ourselves in the back in the film industry, but filmmaking is also really hard. You know, it's difficult. You can be away from your family for extended periods of time. You can be eating, you know, really weird things, weird food for extended periods of time. And to have a positive experience. on set I think is really important, whether I've been able to accomplish that or not is a whole different thing. I've definitely failed. I've definitely had great experiences. I've definitely

failed and made great films. I've definitely done well and made terrible films. So it's, you know, it's just like, it's all, it's all the part of the spectrum and you just don't know, you know. It's a practice. It is a practice. It's all the practice. Yeah. I mean, I guess that's one of the wonderful things about our profession is just that you do get better as you get older and you also get more valued as you get older. I think it's sort of one of the rare cases where that, you know, my my grandfather was like, you know, basically early retired from his company because, you know, he was old. It was too old to do the job, you know, in the minds of sort of, you know, the corporation. Whereas, um,

I have, you know, if I am so lucky to continue this as a profession, I will only get better and better. I will only have seen more things and know where to put lights better. And that's, I mean, that's hugely, kind of a hugely awesome thing to think about. Yeah. Well, and especially too, like once you make that jump from, as you said, like one-man band to actually being a department head and being a cinematographer is you finally don't have to work. about if your back will give out. You can just, if you need to, sit at the monitor and, like, direct people, you know? It is true.

No, you're very right. You're very right. I've had ankle surgery, wrist surgery. You know, my right shoulder is, you know, inches lower than my left shoulder. I'm very happy to get to collaborate with operators now. Yeah. You know, you had mentioned weird food. The UK.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a great transition, Ken. It's an opportunity for weight loss. Yeah. Did you talk to me about the pre-production for Mary and George? Because especially like all the lighting set up specifically feel incredibly like you could just be like, all right, we're going to put a bunch of HMIs outside and we're done. You know?

So what was your guys' conversations like and like what were some of those like painting touchstones? Because I took a few notes here of a few shots that I remember going, that is a painting. that is stolen from a painting. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, like I said, Oliver, you know, I'm marrying George. Oliver comes with this book of ideas. And, you know, a lot of them are paintings.

You know, a lot of them are photography. And it's such a gift, you know, to walk into, you know, a project where that visual research has already been started, where you're not starting from scratch, where someone already has an incredible sort of resource. to kind of throw out your feet and let you kind of get on with it. So all of that is there and a part of the process.

That's coupled with the other idea, which is that Oliver is incredibly instinctual director and really bases what he does on what the actors are feeling in the moment, which means, as a majority, you kind of have to work on the back foot a lot, which was exciting for me. because I like to plan, I'm a planner, you know, but to kind of throw that away and say, okay, what do we have to do here? But that being said, you know, because there's sort of this combination of very rigorous aesthetic concerns and wanting total flexibility for the actors and preserve that bubble,

as a result, you kind of create lighting schemes. that work for that. You know, so your big units outside, diffused, and then maybe smaller little hits. But aside from that, you know, you want to give not 360 lighting because ultimately it's period and not every place is dressed

or not every place is possible to see. Not all the sconces. Yeah, yeah. I think you just need, you need to find that, not compromise, but you need to find that aesthetic. And Oliver was also very adamant that, you know, I think there can be a trend within period films or period TV shows or period stuff to go like very blue when it's cold and it's the morning and kind of very orange when it's late. And Oliver was really adamant that he wanted this to feel very naturalistic in a way.

You know, so we weren't really dogmatic about necessarily like the camera movement or the way that we were going to capture things. Everything was in reaction to the actors. And that sort of fans out in the way that we're going to light it, the way that we're going to shoot it, the way that we're going to think about it. Yeah. You brought up camera movement. That was actually one thing that I suppose I noticed in that first episode when George, goes to France there's like a like a kind of maybe like a dolly boom type movement and I and for some reason it struck me because I was like I feel like every time I watch a period show everything's

super locked off maybe you get a steady cam but everything's like and as you said like very blue very orange there there there's kind of this language almost to period pieces that I kind of appreciated that you guys didn't necessarily lean into you know it feels a little more modern while still feeling very of the time. You know, you didn't go full Bridgeton and make it modern modern. But actually, talk to me about the lenses because the really cool lens choice, were they like Pets Falls or like the German lenses? What are they?

No, they're hawks. They're vantage hocks. Oh, they're just hawks. Yeah, they're hawks. But they're the C class. So early, you know, 1970s lenses, you know, those and we mixed them together with the Joe Dunton, Crystal Expresses. I've never heard of that.

Oh, they're great. Yeah, I mean, you know, Joe Danton, you know, was an incredible lens designer and mostly working in the UK and, you know, a lot of Panavision stuff, C-Series and all that is based on things, inventions that he created and worked on. Yeah. But regardless, I mostly shot with the Hawks because they felt right for the project. And then cropped to one. But I think to kind of get back to what you were saying a little bit, it's like, yeah, I think that I love period pieces. And I think, like, I love the idea of them and the politics at the time,

the costumes and everything. But what was really sort of exciting to me when I read the scripts of Marian George was I felt that there was a real modernity in the writing. And so everything that you're talking about, all those decisions are made in relation to that. you know, the fact that here's an opportunity not to reinvent the period piece, but to lean into some different choices, you know, that you wouldn't necessarily make with a period piece. So, you know, the lens choice comes, you know, from, you know,

Oliver and I talked a lot about, okay, how do you, yeah, how do you kind of couple this modernity with period? kind of classical period things. And so, you know, doing digital cameras, you know, embracing that with an older 70-style lens. And I felt like that was one way to do it. We also talked a lot about camera obscura, you know, which was a technology that was starting to become popular in the 17th century and sort of the funkiness that you get in those old, I mean, basically handmade pets fall lenses before they were pets fall lenses, you know.

Right, right. And loving that idea and saying, okay, how can we. integrate those kind of thoughts into to reflect on the writing. Yeah. Well, and to the note of the writing, too, the show's not a comedy, but there is some of the funniest fucking, like, random little moments I just caught myself going,

like shotgun laughing at that I don't know if, I hope that was intentional. I just don't have the darkest sense of humoralized. I think it is dark. I mean, I think it's dark, because it is a dark situation. I mean, you know, it's easy to watch because you have wonderful actors performing the lines.

Julianne Moore is crushing it. Incredible. I mean, she's just one of the great, great actors. Yeah. And Nicholas Gallatin as well is, you know, incredibly good. So I think, you know, the two of them together makes it easy to kind of just enjoy. But at the same time, like the subject matter

is incredibly dark. You know, these are people, you know, this is Nick, Nick's character, you know, George was beaten growing up, you know, he's like they're pursuing power by any means necessary. And it gets, obviously, the series gets very dark, you know, because I only did one through three, you know, things got a lot darker after that. But we did try to hint at that in the cinematography. And I think that episode three does start to dive into, you know, more of a crushed kind of darker type look. So that the additional other cinematographers to Adam and, oh, well, edit out that I forgot the last person's name. You know what?

I will say, though, I went on IMDB to look up how many episodes you did and whatever. And you're only credited for number one. Okay. So you got to go in there to take that credit, man. I got to get those other two, you know. What were those conversations like between you and the other DPs? Because, you know, the look changing, is that preset or was it, you know, something that you're kind of like, all right, once you get to four and on, like, here's the baton, you know? I guess you were saying earlier because Oliver had that look book more, that kept you all dialed in.

But were there conversations between the three of you? Yeah, of course. I mean, sorry, Adam and Frank. God. You know, there were always, you know, we were always. sort of talking. I mean, also, because of the schedule, we shot first and had this sort of 10-week block, but then after that, all our blocks got stacked on top of each other. And so, you know, I was shooting Tuesday and Friday, and they were shooting Monday and Thursday or, you know,

whatever it may be. So there was a lot of kind of overlap in the crew and what we were talking about, you know, but that being said, they took it and they made it their own, you know. I did end up making a show Bible when we wrapped and I did send that to them but Adam interpreted it in the way that he interpreted Frank interpreted in the way he interpreted so you know while I do think that there is consistency there is a show let you know all those sort of things that you would do on a on a normal show I think they they took it their own ways you know which neither I would honestly pursue you know I I would shoot in a different way because I'm a different person yeah what's a what kind of considerations went into making the show let?

Was there like a specific, you know, like color range that you were trying to enhance or to press? Or was it all kind of just like, you know, a basic 709 with some tweaks? No, it had, you know, a lot of different things going on in there. And it was revised multiple times, you know, as we started to kind of dig into it, you know, wanted something that really was very, very. blue forward in the black so that our warmer situations felt really warm, but then something that didn't alter skin tones too much when we got into daylight. So it's a tricky kind of balance, you know, to find a show let that, excuse you, sorry, a show lot that works for sort of all these

different considerations. I mean, the important thing is that, you know, Oliver did want this kind of neutral feel. And he didn't want anything that was super heavy-handed. And I think that we always kind of kept coming back to that, you know, asking about like, oh, is this the look of the show? Is this the look of the show? You know, because even though there are bold choices made, you know, we didn't really want to feel like it interfered

with what was going on screen with the actors in that space. Yeah. obviously the daylight interiors are easily motivated but like one scene specifically that I'm thinking of is Mary is walking into she wants to go talk to the king and it's just like a fireplace and she's got a candle

were those legitimately just the two light sources or did you were you punching that up? No I mean it's you know it's never just that I mean I was shocked I was like oh okay I mean listen we use the Alexa 33 and the Alexa 35 has a tremendous dynamic range. And being able to push that camera to comfortably to 600 to 2000 with some Denoiser is just a gift. And we always wanted everything to feel motivated.

So if they were inside and it was day, the day came in, we knew that there were windows. You know, we saw those windows. If it was a fireplace or a candle, we always turned around to try to put that in the background. You know, that was a really important sort of consideration. I got to work with just the phenomenal gaffer, Mark Clayton. And that was really important to sort of the way that we went about lighting the show. And he built a bunch of amazing things. And one of them are these sort of fire boxes, is what we called them,

which are basically just bulbs in a black box. And the bulbs are on, you know, various different timers so that they sort of change and they flicker and they're controlled by a board off and that goes through very soft diffusion and just feels like fire so you know a lot of a lot of sort of the scenes that you're talking about you know we used the flame as our sort of motivator and then brought more beyond that ultimately um yeah i mean i i love those fireboxes i'm i've stolen them in multiple different occasions now yeah that's the other fun thing going back to what you're saying about like uh learning on the job and stuff is there's always stuff you learn that someone

like magivered together oh totally and then eventually becomes like an industry standard you know it just gets near after whoever invented it you know duty dolly there you go that's yours now yeah yeah yeah no it's true i mean and also like um i think you work on a project and um on the next project you go oh i have to have that thing that I used, that little piece of silver bounce. That was amazing. Like, I have to, like, we have to get that, you know. And then you bring it to the next project and then you realize like, oh, this is not right for this project. You know, it's sort of, I'm always consistently doing that where I'm saying, oh, I need that type of diffusion that I used. That was perfect for this. But it also necessitates invention and necessitates pushing yourself in

different ways. So I just, I enjoy the process of how do we technically make this feel like the world we're trying to create. Yeah. The screeners I got were like 720P or something, you know, like encoded it like, you know, three megabytes. So I couldn't quite tell. It was enough. But were you using any on lens diffusion?

Yeah. You should include. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I mean, you know, I think Oliver and very rightly so, even though he enjoys working digitally because it gives him a lot of freedom with the actors, he, um, he, um, he, um, um, he, uh, wants to make sure that I think that the digitalness of digital, the sharpness of digital can take you out of a period piece very quickly.

And I think that you always need to diffuse it or have some backup plan in the grade to know where you're going to go with it. And so we ended up using classic soft diffusion. But at the same time, you know, the classic soft doesn't work great with candles or fire or windows, really. So you get a lot of halation. So I ended up taking it out as much as I had it in. And then just knowing, you know, with the great colorist Tim Masek talking to Tim and being like, hey, what do you have, you know, in the Gaussian blur section of Da Vinci to, you know, start to mess around with it. And he has so many tricks up his sleeve and so many things that he was basically able to mimic a classic soft feel really wonderfully.

Yeah. So I've mentioned this in the last podcast, not the one that you could like the last interview I did, which won't come out for a few weeks. But I've mentioned it a few times. And Eric Mezzershmidt turned me onto this program. And so this company has to fucking sponsor this podcast or something because I've named dropped them too many times. There you go. It's a plugin called scatter. Yeah, I like it.

I've just started using it as well. Yeah, it's great. It's phenomenal. It's phenomenal, yeah. I've run tests, and they're not kidding. Like, whatever their formulation is for, like, each, obviously, I couldn't test all of them because I don't own all the diffusions. But, like, you know, your glimmer glasses and your Hollywood black magics and your promis and stuff, they all look fucking identical. Yeah, it's a game changer for sure.

I'm a huge fan of the scatter product. I, with the last movie I just worked on, um, um, um, It's something that we were sort of trying to figure out, could we get it in our pipeline somehow, you know, so that Daley's always had it. But in the end, it sort of didn't work in that way. We kind of knew where we're going. But I'm really excited to kind of get into the grade and start to mess around with it because I think it, you know, all of those plugins, there's a lot to be done, especially with digital to create kind of the sort of not filmic look, but just to kind of take the curse off. off of what digital is, you know? Yeah.

Well, and also just, like, being able to keyframe, essentially, like, how heavy diffusion is and stuff. And, like, I've noticed that it does a really, like, the contrast reduction. I've never, I guess I never really thought about how the diffusion affects the contrast in such a way because it's always on the lens, you know, more or less. Yes, of course, yeah. Being hyperbolic. But when you're sitting there, like, power.

pounding through them and like on-offing them, like you get a really good appreciation for what diffusion actually does to the image, even if it's a digitally modeled version. Absolutely. And also not having that weird like side, you know, washy flare that can happen in real life. That's a nice thing to not have to deal with. Yes, absolutely.

But then again, listen, light through a filter is going to change dramatically more than, of course, you know, a digital interpretation of it. But for certain things, I'm definitely excited about using that scatterers. project pop product excuse me do you um do you get pretty involved in the great i certainly uh over the pandemic i became a freelance colorist because i was like well if i can't be a dp i can be the other half you know yeah yeah yeah yeah it's true it's well done um i do yeah i mean i have a great relationship with uh with tim and and we talk a lot and um he's sort of a constant source of

inspiration and partner sort of in this i think when you're doing digital you know cinematari having a colorist that you trust is sort of as important as, you know, having someone printing it, you know, that you trust it, you know, when you're shooting film. So having a great lab, you know. So I, yeah, I definitely get involved, but at the same time, there's a tremendous level of trust there. So, you know, we'll meet and we'll talk about it and then I'll let him go do his thing, you know, and then I'll come back and we'll review and we'll talk about it. then we sort of have set up a process that works for us that I don't think allows either of us to be overbearing.

You know, it just allows both of us to be involved. And, you know, ultimately, he's a tremendously talented person. So it's just a pleasure to get to work with him. Yeah. Do you get put in a position often where they're like, you don't get to use your colorist? You got to use our guy or whatever? I have been put in that position before. And sometimes you win the battle and sometimes you don't, you know.

I've been very fortunate in that the majority of projects I've gotten to work with Tim on. And I think they benefit greatly from it. But I have been put in that situation and I haven't liked it. Did you, was he, did he do the card counter? He did do the card counter, yeah. Yeah, I really loved that movie. That was a random, like it's, you know, I'm normally the person who goes on the streamer and just tries to find what I'm looking for you know right but that was one of the rare ones where I'm a magician so I saw

card and I went yay and just watched it that's a really that's a good job on that one man oh thank you I appreciate that how did that how did that come about for you what do you mean come about like like how did that film kind of get so yeah yeah uh well I done uh two movies previous with Paul and so um at that point I don't can't tell I didn't research this question that's okay don't worry um at that point um i don't think he knew he was making a trilogy but um we were we were already in conversation about you know about card counter post birth reforms and they kind of sat together in a weird way and we were sort of just trying to think about it and talk about it and and um the sort of conversation evolve from there you know

to, you know, spending three months in Biloxi, Mississippi. Yeah. Do, what's the logistical situation trying to film in a casino? Or was that a same? Well, no, it's all real. You know, the film is, it's a small film. So, you know, you don't have casino money. Don't have Vegas casino.

No Bellagio money. No Bellagio money. So, you know, basically there, There is a lot of stuff that's there and I kind of designed mostly an LED package so that we could see what's there, edit what's there, and then fill in with things that we could match really weird color temperatures if need be. So that was kind of the approach. It's very like, not to bring up documentary, but it is a documentary approach in a way to sort

of see what's there and then kind of evolve this narrative film thing as a part of it. And then again, there were days where I couldn't touch things because they were like, if you turn off that light, then we're blind on, you know, camera six and you guys are filming on an active gaming floor, you know, and we still have stuff happening. So you can't be altering things. So it was a challenge for sure. But we had, I think first you need a casino that wants you to film there, which is a challenge because they make so much money. Why would they need a film crew? But we got to. this, you know, this casino down in Biloxi, Mississippi to agree to be involved. And ultimately, they gave us kind of not free reign, but we were able to build in some corners that weren't being used and then sort of shoot at odd times so that we could, um, uh, odd times and odd days so that we could kind of film on on active gaming floors. Yeah. I think the, uh, I think one of the biggest game changers in cinematography has to be the X, Y, coordinate, LED setting.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. That has saved my life so many times where you're like, I just need to match, like you said, like the weirdest color light or like, the sunlight that's getting a weird bounce. And you just go, there's the exact number. Thank you, bye. Yeah, I mean, you know, listen,

the one great thing about shooting a casino know, is that there's not many windows, you know. So that helps in that you're sort of like constantly in this sort of set-like environment. You can motivate from anywhere. Yeah, absolutely. But also, you don't have the sort of pollution of whatever is going outside, whatever's changing outside, you know. That's more how I meant it. But yeah, no, I had great crew on that job. a new york crew came down and and helped me with that so it was great great experience oh yeah um trying i'm looking at my notes i'm going back to the uh oh yeah i wanted that so julian more on um mary and george is also the executive producer uh-huh how what was uh that working relationship

like having because obviously she's in the show as well yes um i imagine that's probably a difficult you're not her, but a difficult thing to, like, have two brains about that. What was the working relationship like between you guys? With Julian? I mean, I think it's more, you know, Oliver as well as an executive producer. And I think it's more about when actors or directors take that role on a TV show, I think it's more about making sure that there's consistency, that there's a consistency of vision there.

And ultimately, that's what I think Oliver, role was. You know, I think he, I think the show, the writing is one thing, but then his, the way that he thought through that and the way that he brought his own light touch to it is what makes the show special, ultimately. And I think that's also a part of the sort of executive producer thing. You know, it's all sort of one, you know, it's his vision, it's his, his idea of things. Obviously, other directors came on and did additional episodes, but he set up the look, he set up the feel, and I think that the executive producer, moniker, is something that just, once again, creates consistency of vision, consistency of feeling, because the buck

kind of stops with him in a way. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just in my head, I'm loving this. this idea of, like, the actor getting upset at a crew and being like, actually, you're fired and I can't do that. Julie's way too nice for any of that. She's a really wonderful human being, very kind and tremendously,

I mean, just a tremendous actor. Yeah. No, I mean, like, literally, I have two notes in here just about how good of an actor she is. Yeah, yeah, I know. And, you know, but that, you know, and I think that's her and all of her playing, you know, to a certain extent.

It's about creating a space where that can happen and then them talking through the character actions and then sort of all of us reacting to that. I think that he is a phenomenal actor's director and I know that there are many actors that love working with him and want to continue to work with him because he's so adept at both putting people at ease but also bringing them into the creative world, giving the really beautiful notes and now I've gotten to witness that for both the TV show and a movie and it's it's a very special talent yeah the uh I did want to get to it before I forgot the scene I was thinking of when I thought I literally wrote down like this is a painting as

George gets tripped you know in like slow-mo and there's this shot like kind of low where he's falling forward uh and it's it it's so Renaissance painting like the lighting specific. You just absolutely nailed it. I just wanted to come. I don't even have a question. I just wanted to come and let you on that shot specifically. I was like, that is a pretty fucking show. That's awesome. I appreciate that. It's very kind

of you. Yeah. I mean, you know, listen, I think, you know, Oliver and I have a lot of similar references. I'm obsessed, you know, like a lot of people say Caravaggio, but I am quite obsessed with Caravaggio and, you know, DeRibera, you know, like sort of these, these great

Italian Renaissance painters and And I think that that's also a lot to do with the costume design and a lot to do the production design. You know, Helen and Annie, you know, made and created these very beautiful spaces. And it's much easier to point a camera and reference those things when the spaces are so beautifully curated or so beautifully selected. And the clothes are sort of have these beautiful kind of diaphanous feel. to them. So it's, you know, I appreciate the compliment, but it's a lot of, a lot of people's work to go into making it feel like that. Yeah, production design, I always say is like 70% of the battle. Like, I was just on Reddit the other day telling some student, he was like, start my first

film, you know, what are some things? And everyone was like, focus on sound, focus on, you know, getting good script, focus on good actors. And I was like, production design, like nothing is worse than watching a movie about like a 20-something girl in clearly a film student boy's first apartment. Like you just don't, like you immediately don't believe it. And it looks- Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. It's very true.

Yeah. What was I going to say? Oh, yeah, were there any modern references? Obviously, paintings and whatnot are of the time. But were there any sort of in the past 20 years, let's say, references for the show? Like I said, you know, it's, there were lots, but you know, sort of integrated into this photo lookbook that Oliver puts together. So yeah, I mean, I could go and I could pick out like this runway show or whatever it may be, you know, this modern photographer. But, but ultimately it's,

I think you have to take it as holistic. Holistic, yeah. It's all these images together create the feel, you know. this all this like sort of tracking of different color ways with the king red you know um that's sort of incredibly rich red um you know all of this stuff is starts in the book talks with any sorry talks with helen about it paints the wall red you know it's it's all sort of part of that i you know i i don't think it's you know i i can say some references but it doesn't really matter because that's not how he uses them. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You actually just reminded me because I had written, you know, I filled out my little note, but I wrote on the back because I was so excited, the actor who plays the king, Tony Coran. Yeah. I freaked out because I think that man might have the sleeper best career in acting. What makes you say that? Well, you know, I wrote it down. You know, cool stuff like, you know, Secret Invasion and Your Honor and Ray Donovan and sons of anarchy and shit. But he's also two things that are made to me.

I used to play a professional counterstrike. And he's the voice of one of the like, not a main character. You know, there's no characters in this game. It's just voices. But he's the voice of one of them. But also his episode of Doctor Who, where he's Vincent Van Gogh. Have you seen that? No, I have not.

Dog, all right. Go find that episode. Because even if you know nothing about Doctor Who, that shit will absolutely rip tears out of your head. Oh, cool. He is incredible. this one-off part. Your character never comes back. It's just the one episode with Vincent Van Gogh.

And it's incredible. Wow, cool. Yeah, he's a tremendous actor and an incredibly nice person. Really. And to have a Scott, playing a Scott, I think is kind of a cool thing. And ultimately that comes down to, you know, Oliver and his sort of genius of casting. Yeah. Well, it's a great show.

Unfortunately, for me, it's on stars. I don't have stars, but I appreciated getting the screeners because I went on a little tear last night just binging it. So, yeah, really good job on it, man. And thanks for spending the time to chat with me. No worries, my absolute pleasure. Frame and Reference is an Owlbaud production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan,

and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can go to patreon.com slash frame and refepod or go to frame and refpod.com, where you can also find the rest of the episodes. Your support is always appreciated. As always, thanks for listening.