Frame & Reference Podcast - 149: "Frasier" 2023 DP Gary Baum, ASC

Episode Date: July 4, 2024

Huzzah! This week on the pod we've got Gary Baum, ASC here to talk about his work on the Frasier reboot, which is fascinating because he's worked almost exclusively on some of the best multi-cam shows ever made and I never really talk to multi-cam folks so it's very educational, at least for me. Enjoy! Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.frameandrefpod.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for everything F&R ⁠⁠You can now support Frame & Reference directly on Patreon!⁠⁠ Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coast's leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠⁠Filmtools.com⁠⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello and welcome to this another episode of frame and reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and you're listening to episode 149 with Gary Baum ASC, DP of the Frazier reboot. Enjoy. It was nice that this was scheduled a little later and because the show's a half hour. So I was able to watch the whole first season of Frasier before that, you know, normally it's like, all right. So there's 12 episodes. They're each an hour.

I can't say I'm going to watch all these before the end. No. No, we'll have time. No, it's impossible. I mean, even when you're like judging for Emmys or something or, you know, ASC stuff. And, you know, it's difficult to get through. Well, the Emmys, they're clips, you know, but sometimes it's difficult to, if you were judging, like, 12 shows, 13 shows, and it's hard to commit yourself to an hour, you know. So either you do, you don't, you know, I understand.

Are you watching anything cool right now? Yeah, I'm watching, well, I was watching Quantum Leap, actually, on NBC. I literally just said, I literally just spoke to Alicia Robbins. last night or yesterday. Oh, cool. Well, that's a, that's, I got hooked on that. I never watched it, you know, when, you know, the first time around, I just thought, you know, I was busy. I never really got into it.

And then, uh, I saw a preview. Actually, what it was was a, uh, an Emmy consideration, you know, watched like five minutes of it. And I go, wow, this show looks pretty damn good, you know. And, uh, it's network. And I said, you know, this is, this is good as it gets, you know, for, you know, hour. It looked great and the story was great. And so I've been watching that and what else I've been looking at.

I don't have much time to do a lot of watching, to be honest. You know, we've been, we're lucky. We've been busy a lot. So, you know, I just, you know, you get home and, you know, you try to watch some documentaries or watch some sports, you know, I don't watch, I don't watch too much my own work, you know. Sure. Because I'm at color, so I see it. And I watch some comedies.

like I said, Quantum Leap and let's see, there are a couple other things I've watched. I really liked the way they looked. I can't really think that. I'll come to me. Sure. I mean, that does seem to be the common threads like, especially when you're working. There's either no time to watch anything

or you're so sick of screens that it's like, I'm going to go, you know, read a book upside down. Well, yeah, that's sort of the thing. It's like, you know, people go, well, you know, what do you watch? You know what? It's like a bus driver's holiday. you know, I don't, you know, I look at sets, I look at lighting, I look at my, you know, monitor, you know, all day long, I get home, I don't want to look at a screen, you know, I just, you just want to kind of do something else, you know. Has that changed going from primarily shooting film, because I had seen in another interview you're talking about how, like, you used to operate even if you were the DP, but now you're in essentially video village.

Has that, like, affected the way that you, yeah, I never, yeah, I never operated while I was a DP, but I'd operated, you know, with, you know, film camera. And I, you know, shot film. We're doing Will and Grace and a couple other things years ago on film. I like film a lot. I shoot film, you know, on the side of my own, you know, still camera. I miss film a lot. And in some days, I don't miss film, you know.

You know, the days where you need to see something right away or, you know, there's no time for guesswork or no time for calculations. and he's going, oh, this is great, you know. But I do miss film a lot at times. Yeah, I learned on 16 before going, I went to a different film school before college. And I can't say I miss film, but because it's scary, you know. But learning to expose it was certainly incredibly valuable.

And the same thing, I still shoot film photography. but it did it did make it a lot nicer when everyone was a little more careful you know like oh yeah i mean uh for sure uh i mean i still use my meter at work and some people say oh you still use a light meter and i go yeah i do i'm saying i mean yeah i've got i like to know where i am on the you know on the set i don't like to be like locked to a monitor i like to look at the set and i can you know judge you know from what we're doing by watching and then if i have a meter i can double check and I don't even need to look at the monitor sometimes you know so I um you know I like to a stop a lot of people still don't do that but I still do because it's from the film

it's disciplined from film yep and uh so um yeah so that's I know I literally do this I did that just to set up this you know I was like what's the window at what's that okay cool you know I also like not being tethered to the camera like especially you know I primarily shoot um you know, low budget or corporate or indie shit. So it's a lot nicer to, like, have someone else set up the camera and not have that out. And then, you know, that, you know, when people used to be like, oh, the DP used to be the, you know, only you knew what it looked like before it was developed. Like using the meters kind of the same way, you go out, set up all the lights. And then you go, ta-da, you know, just turn it on.

We're good. Yeah, pretty much, you know. And, you know, sometimes they ask me, you ready? You go, yeah, I'm ready because you have to look at them on. And I go, no, you know, let's go. you know i don't i don't have to look through the camera i don't you know i mean i'd like to sometimes i'd like to look through the monitor you know with certain backings it's hard to determine you know with the digital uh but uh no i just still do by eye and meter it seems to be um it's more it's more

organic it's more fun for me you know like i don't have to sit there in front of a monitor yeah yeah it definitely makes it more of an active experience yeah i'm i'm on my feet all day long you know It's like I'd rather just, you know, keep busy rather than just get locked into, you know, like a monitor. We have to look at four. You have those quad split. You have four cameras, you know. And it's like it's good to get out, get out there and just be on the set and, you know, experience. Be a part of it.

Exactly. You know, it's hard when you're doing digital, you know. How do you, you know, I was actually going to save this for later, but now I'm just thinking about it. like lighting for multi-cam. So I saw you mentioned that it's not just four setups. It's like 40 setups. Yeah. Because the cameras are constantly moving.

So how do you, I'd seen you talk about trying to keep like a film-like image, not necessarily a cinematic image, you know, quote unquote, but a film-like image. So how are you lighting and maybe what camera choices are using on like a newer show like Frasier that's? Well, you know, we just got off. of a couple of shows, you know, how I met your father last year, and we did that 90s show again.

And, well, you know, the basic thing is, like you say, you're not, you don't have the luxury of lighting each setup. You have to light for the whole scene. So, and you have like, you know, four cameras, you'll have 10 different, 10 different shots, you know. So you'll have 40 different setups, like, essentially, you know. You know, so you have to start by lighting the room, and then you have to see where the actors are, and you have to kind of, you know, do a lot of back crosses and cross keys and a little bit of, I don't like to use a lot of fill, but we have to, you know, because we have four cameras, you know. And, you know, every angle looks, you know, you try to make it look, you know, like the same shot, the same scene, but it's difficult, you know, it's not easy. You know, it's not, it's not for, it's hard, it's hard for, and it's hard for people who haven't done it and try to do it.

It's easier for me. I came from single camera to go to single camera and light from one set up and, you know, maybe stick in a B camera for a close up and then, you know, turn around and move it. That to me is easy. Yeah. Well, easier. It's just, it's a balancing act, you know, and I try to keep. I use, we have to use zoom lenses because there's so many different moves in a scene and dolly moves and it's just, it's just in, it's inconvenient and not very easy to do just do just

dolly moves, you know, because you have to get closer. And so the zoom, you know, helps that along, you know, with dolly moves and zooms. So I use four zooms and I use the same focal length zooms for all four cameras. Sure. Is it still the primos? I saw you were using those on. Yeah, me still using the Panavision primos, 11-1s, you know. And, you know, I try to keep, you know, I like to a stop.

I'm about a four, you know, give a take. And I need to do that to help, like, the assistance. Sometimes we don't have dollies all the time. Sometimes we have pedestals. Right. And, you know, it's difficult for those guys, you know. They were great. They do a great job. I don't know how they do it.

I mean, I just, I tried once and it's just, you know, I just gave up, you know. Yeah, well, especially with all the cameras running around, you know. Yeah. Do the ACs have time to, like, measure out each thing? Yeah. Yeah, well, the ACs, the ACE, if we do have ACs, you know, let's say we have, like the show we're doing now, has four dollies. So, four ACs. So the ACs still have some time.

Depends who's directing. You know, if you're using, if Jim, you're doing. burrows as directing you don't have time to do anything you know you it's very fast you have to you have to like figure out after right but they use uh they use you know we used to use tape measures you know bring out there's no time for that they use laser yeah laser lights you know and the lasers are like because i use one too and like they're they're good within an inch or two usually yeah i mean they're fine for what we do you know uh you know um but i still have give them a little bit of help, you know,

as we're on the long end. I like to keep the lens on a long end to keep that lack of depth of focus running, so it has a little more of a cinematic look. You know, I like the background to fall off. And, you know, and we can't light from the floor. We have to light from everything's above, basically.

You know, I carry some OB lights on the camera. Occasionally we use those, you know, to fill in. But other Otherwise, everything is from the grids. Everything's from the pipe above. Yeah. I imagine LED technology has absolutely changed how you light and probably operate. Do you have a dimmer operator or the light is just kind of always on?

No, no, we have a dimmer op. Yeah. Yeah, we have. However, most of our units are still incandescent. You know, I'm using. Really? Yeah, yeah, because we're using Fresnel, you know, lights, you know, Moll Richardson. you know, the tanks, juniors, you know, um, 1Ks, tweenies, you know, all that.

Yeah. Um, because of the throw, you know, we have, the lights have to be sometimes 20, 20 feet away from the actors, you know, maybe more than LEDs. I mean, they have that technology now, but they don't want to pay for it, you know. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, these units, you know, four or five grand, twelve grand.

Yeah, I mean, the units we're using, I mean, they're, you know, 60, 70 years old, some of them. you know yeah so i mean they're still working so and uh you know some some cameraman some guys come by you know and uh they look and they go they're like wow you go you guys uh it's amazing they kind of like got this glow in their eyes you know because you know we don't you're like 90 percent incandescent and we're like 90 percent you know uh LED so we're just the opposite we use a lot of LEDs for um architectural work you know uh stuff in, you know, augmenting different architectural items or the LEDs are used for on the OB lights, you know, or if we're in a blue screen situation within cars, you know,

I tend to use like the S-30s and, you know, those LEDs. They just have a nicer, for our purposes, there's always like shadows and doorposts or, you know, whatever or seatbelts or any kind of stuff like that. So I like to use those because they kind of wrap around nicely. And so in that sense, we're all LED on blue screen stuff. And we do a lot of that too. Yeah. Are you the mostly incandescent, you know.

I mean, that's, you're going to get, you know, beautiful skin tones at least. Yeah, I mean, it still works. Yeah. It's just, you know, it's just how you choose to, you know, how you choose to use it, you know, it's just. Yeah, I remember, I've said it before, but I remember the moment I was like, oh, shit, I made it, was just seeing a zip light in person and being able to use it. Because, you know, in film school, it was all, you know, either that, that open face, what was it, the total, the Tota light that Lull made, it was just like a seven. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, right, right, right. We had that.

That's like a bare bulb, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Really, really sick light. Yeah. They didn't tell us about diffusion at first. No, I mean, that's the key, you know. It's not just a light. It's how how it's cut, you know. Yeah. Do you, are you the type of person that goes to like, you know, your Cinegears and your NABs and kind of like nerds out about it or does that kind of outside your of enjoyment of enjoyment? It's sort of outside my realm of enjoyment to be honest. I'm not, I mean, it's all, I mean, I used to a lot, but there's so many, it's such a wide variety of things. I'm still into, you know, glass, you know, lenses. Yeah. And, you know, over the years, I've got more into lighting rather than cameras, because cameras don't have that romantic, you know, pulls to me anymore. They're just computers, you know. Well, and they're all so good that it's like, well, yeah, they're all, yeah, you can't, right, you can pick whatever you want, you know, and they're all great and you know you don't want to get attached to one sometimes or buy one

because you know three years it's going to be obsolete right well not necessarily obsolete but non preferred you know so you know i tend to like to um if i go to the shows i like to look at different glass and different lights sometimes you know and uh and meet old friends you know it's kind of a more of a social thing for me at this point in my career you know there are people out there I've known for, you know, since the 80s, you know. So it's kind of fun for that. But, uh, now, I don't get too much. I don't bog down too much with nomenclature, you know. Sure, sure. Like even when we're lighting, you know, I don't, um, I don't always know sometimes that, you know, the, uh, the new lights, you know, I don't, you know, I don't

remember the names, you know. Well, they don't give them good names. They're all like GFXT 3000. Exactly. Exactly. So it's like I know, S30s, S60s. you know, I don't have to, you know, it's just, that's not, you know, I'm more of a creative end of it, you know, than a technocrat, you know, I don't necessarily, you know, I necessarily, you know, I don't necessarily want to build a watch. I just want to know, you know, what time it is, you know, or how to set the time, you know. That's actually a good way to say it. So that's my take on it, you know. Sure. What, you know, when lighting, I'm just, again, I just banged through the entire

season of Frasers and now that's fresh on my mind but you know what what's keeping you from just this is a dumb question but intentionally what's keeping you from just throwing a big whack of diffusion over the entire set and just giving a big soft thing and kind of

like covering it and just saying that's good you know oh I mean sometimes you want to but you know you can't you have you you know I've said it before it's without getting into like certain details, you know, you get into things with actors sometimes. And when you use,

I'm not saying hard or a hard light, you know, we're using a lot of, you know, trying to make it more cinematic. The actors have to kind of work with you a little bit and, you know, about, you know, shadowing themselves and and shouting other people. And, you know, marks are more crucial, you know, for me, like in a single camera world, you know. So actors have come from single. camera and do multi-camera, they're on top of it, you know. And then, you know, the actors who don't know, really, or haven't been trained, it's an interesting concept for them, you know, like we work on Mike and Molly. We had, you know, Billy Gardell, who was essentially a stand-up comedian, you know, and he was, you know, I was, you know, showing him stuff. And, you know,

within about a week, he had everything down. He goes, hey, Gary, look, I'm in my light. Look, I got it right there. That's it. That's it. I go, that's Billy. I go, that's it. Well done. I mean, he, and, you know, like, literally within one show, one and a half shows, he was like on it. He knew exactly where everything was, you know, and he really enjoyed it.

He goes, Gary, you know, I really, I really appreciate all that stuff. And he did some other feature during one of the hiatus. He goes, yeah, I don't. He goes, that all training came in pretty good. Because I was like an old pro out there. I go, good. But, you know, I just don't want to do that, you know. And some, maybe some showrunners would prefer that, you know, but it's, that's, you know, they wouldn't hire me for that or I'm not necessarily want to do that, you know.

No. You know, sometimes you just want to say, I don't know, let's just throw a couple of china balls out there and, you know, let it let it go. But right, you just don't want to do that. I don't like the look. I mean, sometimes, you know, with tiny sets, you have to sort of make things softer because, you know, it's tough. on a small, really small set, like a, you know, eight by 10 set sometimes. Right.

They throw one at you, like a bathroom or something. It's kind of tough to light. Everyone loves lighting a bathroom. Yeah. Anyway, I don't really, I don't, you know, it's not, it's, that look doesn't, you know, appeal to me, you know, it just doesn't, it doesn't resonate. So I just, I just don't do it, really, you know.

Yeah, I, you mentioned the sets thing. I was kind of wondering on a multicam show, like, what does the turnover look like? Because I'm not that well versed in multi-camera from the sort of production perspective. Because in the show, it just kind of cuts to black. There's the title card, and then it goes to the next one. Like, what does that experience like for the audience?

And is there non-audience shoot days? Yeah. I mean, on typical multi-camera situation, it's a five-day week. so let's say Frazier shoots on a Monday, Tuesday so let's say the first day of the week is Wednesday

or I'll make it easier for your audience, let's say a Monday, let's say shoot on a Friday. So Monday there's usually a production meeting, a table of read and maybe a little bit of rehearsal, you know, and usually at the beginning of a show, the sets are already up

So you have to, you know, we're sort of already prepped to light them. You know, they're sort of, you know, prep for actors. You know, the sets are sort of lit. And then on Tuesday, let's say there's a rehearsal. And then on the afternoon, there's like a run-through with a producer run-through. And then, you know, we look at it with my key grip and the gaffer. And then the crew lighting grip crew comes in. And then we got to, you know, we got to work, you know, based on what we saw.

the actors. You know, we have to, you know, people coming indoors, people sitting down, people walking around. And Wednesday is pretty much the same thing, but it's a, it's a studio run through, you know, for the network. Right. You know, let's say, you know, so network and they have notes, you know, everybody always has a note, you know, writing notes, you know. Well, they got to earn that paycheck. They got to earn their paycheck. So it's never a lighting note because we're not really, But it's usually about, you know, story, story points or dialogue or whatever. And on Thursday, you know, the camera crew comes in and they start blocking the show with the director and the camera coordinator who kind of facilitates, you know, line cues to, you know, get off a shot and get it on another shot, you know, and that kind of nature. on a day like that, sometimes we'll pre-shoot.

More times than not, we'll pre-shoot something, especially maybe if there's a swing set that they want to get rid of, you know, or some stunt or something with an animal or, you know, kids or, you know, something that, you know, you really don't want to take a lot of time in front of an audience. Right. And then a Friday is the same thing. You know, you get there a little later, maybe they didn't have a rehearsal.

And then there's a break, you know, for about two, two hours. hours, you know, for dinner, makeup, whatever. And then we get to work. We're still doing final touches. And then the audience, you know, files in and the show starts at, you know, between five and six o'clock. And they have a warm-up guy and warm up gal. And the audience will see a live performance, really. I mean, you know, it's like seeing, they're seeing a theatrical, you know, theatrical performance, you know, with four cameras, you know. So they can actually watch the sets, You know, they can actually watch, or they can watch on their monitors, but they'd like to watch, you'd like to see the sets, you know. Right.

And then, you know, they'll do a couple takes to, you know, sometimes more depends, you know, what happens. And then they move on to another set. You know, the cameras shift over to the next set or turn around, you know, to the other set. And that's how it goes. And typical show takes about three to four hours, you know, to shoot. So the audience That's pretty efficient Pretty much

Yeah I mean At that point The show is pretty polished You know But it depends on You know Depends on the showrunner You know

There's some shows that They're constantly rewriting You know It's just don't leave anything alone You know And then there's some shows That Whatever is there

Like especially on Friday You know Morning You know It's there You know Unless it's a joke that they want to pitch, you know, someone sees a joke and we'll throw a line in and throw, you know,

but basically it's there, you know, they don't mess with it. So you do two, two, three takes and then you move on, you know, to, usually you get it in a couple of takes, you know. The Clint Eastwood School of Takes. Yeah, it's very, there are, there are, there are shows like that and there are shows that are just the opposite. So, you know, there's, it's less efficient, now i think um i'm not blaming anybody in particular uh but um you know the younger showrunners don't don't get the idea of cutting sometimes you know like film it was pretty much uh a little more um urgent i would say urgent and a little more uh um yeah for lack of a better word a little more um uh cost efficient

You know, film is expensive, so you don't, you don't just keep the camera running. You just, you know, you cut, you know, and you, but, you know, with, like, we're using file-based, you know, cameras, obviously, so now, so, you know, you know, just leave the camera running, you know. And it's like, well, that's, that's not a, that's not really, that's not really great, you know. Well, I imagine the editors aren't super thrilled with just getting massive single taste. Well, yeah, then you have an editor with, you know, um, you know, close to two, two and a half hours of

footage and he has to cut it down to like 30 minutes, you know, it's not easy, you know. There was one feature that Red had on their cameras that they got rid of. It's infuriating, but there used to be,

you could map a button. It was primarily built for like skateboarders essentially. Yeah. Where you'd be filming the same trick over and over and instead of using, what do you call it, when it's constantly recording and then you, pre-record stop stop motion or no pre-record oh pre-record right uh but uh you there was a button

you could map on the reds that you would click it and it would make a metadata tag and oh okay that's the good that's the good take right so the editor would just get it and go oh there we go there's the marker no yeah they still have script supervisors so yeah and the digital script supervisor yeah no they have still script supervisor on the set with a iPad you know right and a stopwatch and the editors sometimes depending on the show the editor is there too

you know sure sometimes the editors don't ship don't you know they're not interested and you know they're just interested

in you know what they get and sometimes editors come down and they want they ask for specific things or they just keep an eye on it you know

yeah what uh this is going to sound really dumb but how what does the editor's job look like on a multi-camp show beyond just like picking the angles, which I assume is a

conversation with you as well. But is there like actually a tremendous amount of editing to be done? Because you're only doing like two to three takes per set up. There's a lot. There's a lot of assembly. Yeah. I mean, you know, I'm not involved in that. They don't ask my opinion about angles, you know. I mean, the only thing, I mean, honestly, I mean, someone says to me, you know, a multi-camera person, you know, I don't get involved too much in the blocking of the show angles. I mean, that's up to the director and the camera

coordinator. However, you know, they do refer to me if there's something different they have to do, if the camera's too close, or, you know, lighting, you know, if they take the camera way upstage, you know, we're not lit for that,

you know, so we have to, you know, my opinion, you know, matters at that point. But I don't, I can't, I don't get involved, we don't we don't get involved in the actual picking of the angles and that's fascinating yeah no it's more of a you know i'd like to say the old school of uh you know the english uh director photography it's called an english cameraman with it they're more the lighting camera man correct you know and then the operator you know is more closely you know working with you know the director yeah

so that's how it is basically on multi-camera you know I don't really, you know, let me, they'll ask me, my opinion, you know, before, you know, about sets and color and, you know, whatever, you know, there's a lot of other things, but on the, on the day, no, I don't really, you know, I don't really get involved in that, that much, you know. You know, with, with films, obviously, there's generally a pretty good relationship between the DP and the production designer. Do you have that same relationship, or is it, is that kind of a not in your hands. Oh, no.

You know, we have, depends who it is. You know, I have a relationship with, Glenda Ravello now, who I'm doing, Frazier with, and we do the 90s show.

It wasn't worth working with Greg Garcia. I mean, Greg Garanda, excuse me. And, you know, they, you know,

they run things, you know, through me, you know, they go, hey, you know, we're thinking about doing this and for the next show.

And what do you think about, you know, this, move it over here or this is work for you or do we need this wall or um sometimes i'll get involved with color you know if they're stuck or you know and um and go what what about you know um these walls i go well you know um it would it would be beneficial if maybe you know the color can be toned down a little bit instead of like whatever like a screaming white or yeah oh yeah like that or um or uh certain like we you know or like blue certain blues you know because

digital sensors you know look at blue at a totally different way yeah than the human eye you know sort of exponential yeah in my opinion um so you know uh things like that yeah we'll we'll get and you know we'll we'll converse quite a bit you know actually but uh you know, when their show gets rolling, there's not much time. You know, we're working, well, let's say we're shooting on Friday. We're always working toward Monday because Friday night, we got the swing sets, we've got to strip down and take everything down and those go out and the sets come in, you know, Monday morning at, you know, 12.01 a.m., you know.

Right. Or sometimes during the weekend, you know, the construction's building new sets. And the process starts all over again. So we're not really, we're always like trying to keep up with what's happening for the next show in the next episode. With, with, you know, again, my background is in the film, basically, for lack, well, anyway, that's where my knowledge lies. So, you know, obviously with each new film, it's like a new experience. There's the old experiences might not, you know, the way you lit the last movie, not might. Right.

But with these multicam shows, you know, you're getting a lot of bites at the Apple. You're getting a lot of reps in. And I was wondering, is there kind of a constant iteration process that you think? I mean, you've had a pretty extensive career. Have you reached the point where now you can, like, show up and it's done and you don't have to stress too much? Or are you constantly learning? Like, how? Yeah.

That's a, that's a good question. Because I always say that, you know, every show, you know, every – You know, series, every show has its own, seeks its own level, you know. It seeks its own identity, you know. And for anybody like to, you know, to force or coerce a look on it is, I think, you know, not the best interests of the show, you know. So like, you know, we've, whatever show we worked on, I mean, there's a constant approach you have to have for multi-camera or else you'll never get the work done.

I mean, you've got to like the set and then like the people and vice versa, but each show has its own voice. You know, each show has its own character and the sets are different. So you have to, you know, you have to kind of blend in your own, you try to tell the story and not get your own values in the way. You know, you try to do justice to the show. you try to do justice to the story, you know. Yeah. Like we just came off of how I met your father last year. And that was basically a hybrid show, you know, a lot of single camera work.

And, you know, we were outside a lot. And, you know, I loved it. It was great. To me, that was like one of my best, you know, my best experiences. Because I got to do single camera work, but I was on a multi-camera show. So I didn't have that kind of, you know, we were shooting three days instead of two days. but that's a whole different story, you know, than using like sets like for that 90s show,

which is sort of like a throwback to the 70s show. Right. So it has a whole other look to it, you know. But basically, I mean, your approach is the same. You just have to, you know, you have to understand where the story is going and you have to listen to, you know, the showrunner. It's still their show and they have a voice, you know.

And, you know, they have an opinion. opinion, you know, and you have to kind of listen. You know, you have to do a lot of listening, I think. And that will kind of guide you to where you got to go, you know. So in that respect, yeah, there's no, you know, there's no lobbying it in there, you know. There's no, there's no easy day. There's no off day, yeah. No, not really.

I mean, if you take it seriously like we do, you know, and you try to advance the craft, it's hard to it's hard to go that way you know yeah just you just don't want to do that you know you want to you know give it its best shot you know yeah because i'm wondering you know with uh film and even television there does seem to be this constant push towards uh you know i guess quote unquote modernization but the multi-camera genre kind of has its conventions from its invention. In what ways are you guys able to sort of push any boundary that you may or may not want, you know,

how do you keep things sort of fresh without abandoning the core of the genre? Well, that's a good question. I mean, now we don't, you know, with the advent of technological advances with cameras and, you know, we're now using a Sony Venice camera that's nice uh yeah it is uh we're lucky to be able to uh to get those um we're the only show at the moment it's using it uh it's a little there's a little bit of a curve you know but um you're going

back to the showrunners you know um the days of sitcoms of uh you know three people sitting on a couch and two people walk in and two people get up and you know that's the scene that doesn't exist anymore you know right um the the the modern um way to go is usually everybody wants to sort of up the look of a sitcom into single camera uh comedy and you know i hear from my you know uh peers who were doing you know uh features and tv that for them you know they kind of come to me sometimes and ask me some questions. Because to them, the notion of going out with one camera, maybe two cameras, that's a thing of the past for them too.

Right. Most of their setups are multi-camera. You know, there are three cameras, you know, especially with a busy show. So, you know, they, everybody wants to up the game and there's always a lot of different things to do. You know, there's different sets. There's different situations. So you have to adapt to it.

So in that respect, it, it, it, it. moves forward but in the other respect if it's a show in front of an audience there's certain constrictions that you have to you know that are still there that they were 70 years ago you know there you have an audience and you have you know your cameras and you know you're shooting at proscenium style you know in front of you know there's basically three walls you know yeah so uh that's that's a constant really you know so uh that's that's a constant really you know so uh that's I mean, that's, that's kind of a short answer to kind of a very, very broad question, you know. Sure. Yeah. I am not the master of precision. What made, you know, so this is three thoughts at once, but using, for instance, like Young Sheldon is an example of taking a multi-camp show and then just making it, you know, single-camp.

Cam, basically. What kept you guys doing that for Frazier? You know, because maybe modern audiences want a Frazier that's shot like that. I don't know. Well, basically the showrunners, you know, and Kelsey Grammer, you know, he's spearheading it. And they wanted to keep it a traditional show, you know. Fair enough. So they wanted to keep it sort of, you know, modern as a story is, but basically they, they

like the format you know yeah the format um still works you know yeah so a lot of a lot of people love the format you know and i love the format i think it's great you know i like shooting you know um like i like on how i met your father we shot for three days you know basically block and shoot uh i i didn't like it in the beginning because i thought you know i kind of missed the audience you know, but after a while, there was no other way to do that show. It would have been impossible to do that show any other way because there was just so much packed into that show, you know. Yeah.

But then some shows like freight, you know, it lends itself to it. Matter of fact, this year, the audience is up to 300, no, it's 290 people. Damn. It's huge. Yeah. It's like 100 more people than it would have been in a traditional, you know, a bleacher setup for the audience, which is like 185. Right.

And I think the reason for that was there were people clamoring for tickets. You know, they wanted to see the show. So they wanted to, you know, they wanted to accommodate as many people as possible. So in that respect, it shows that, you know, people still want to see the show. They like the format, you know. Yeah. Well, and it's kind of one of those, everything old is new again situations, I imagine for the audience, where like there aren't too many multi-cam shows anymore.

So there's an element of novelty where you're like, oh, shit, we actually get to see the actors do it. You know, it's like the universal behind the scenes tour of television. Exactly. Uh-huh. It's exactly it. I mean, it kind of ebbs and wanes, you know, over the years. I don't know if it'll ever get back to where it was, but maybe it shouldn't.

I don't know. You know, like they always talk about streaming and, you know, what did they say, there was 540, you know, shows out there to watch? I mean, some figure like that, I don't know. I think that's, and everybody thought, well, yeah, that's, that was unsustainable, you know. It's like, I have a friend of a friend, and, you know, she says, oh, have you seen this? Have you seen that? And I go, no, I don't even know where that exists, you know?

And I said, by the way, where do you have time to watch all of this? I mean, like, are you watching like 24 hours a day? Are you sleeping? Because there's so much out there. There's no time, you know. So I think, you know, I think it was overproduced. And now it's probably coming back to where it's a sustainable system. Yeah.

So I think maybe multicameras is sort of making a little bit of a comeback. Yeah. You know, network is starting to realize that, I mean, streaming obviously realized they're not making any money. so they're always making fun of linear broadcasts but linear broadcast pays the bills well also we could use tv guide again now when people are like what did you see that it's like which who made that one and it like even the production companies jump around so you can't be like oh you know it's fincher i know it's netflix it's like oh he just did one for hbill you're like you

what yeah so uh you know i think uh you know there's a shakeout thing going on now and obviously you know, so I don't know where it's going to end. I think if anybody knew, they'd be buying a lot of tickets. Yeah, there wouldn't be a discussion, you know. But, you know, we'll have to see, you know, but I think the death of the multi-camera sitcom is maybe a little premature.

I'm hoping it is because I, you know, I love it. You know, I fell into it years ago, and I kind of like it. I like to laugh. I like comedy. Yeah, because I guess that's the other thing. thing too is you can like I got a pretty big shotgun laugh like you know if you're with a live audience and you're behind the monitor and something funny you can just giggle like it's gonna

it's gonna blend in well yeah you mean you're you're not only can you're encouraged to you know sometimes like my you know my director we work with many years you know Jim Burrough James Burroughs you know obviously the king of comedy yeah uh you know he'll say you know he used to say well if my camera crew isn't laughing, it ain't funny, you know. And if you can get the grips, you, there's a, yeah, the guys at the camera when they're blocking, if there's a, if there's an element of laughter to be had by people who are watching all the time, you know, you have something there. I mean, there's an element of truth to that, you know, to say, you know, you're jaded and whatever it may be, but there's something's funny,

it's funny, you know, you got to laugh out loud. Yeah. I, uh, I mean, I do still. I, You know, it sounds funny. It's funny, you know. That's the thing is, I was going to say, I produced a stand-up show, and a lot of the comics will just be in the back. And the way they appreciate good comedies, they usually go, you know, that's funny. It's funniest thing I've ever heard in my life. Really good.

And if you can ever get, if you can, you know, get one of them to actually laugh, I don't do comedy, but like, because it takes them by surprise because it's so good. It's like, that's how you know you got a winner. You know, write that one down. Yeah. Pretty much. Yeah, I mean, I work with, like I said, you know, stand-up comic, you know, Billy Gardell, you know, for quite a few years. And they're naturals in front of a camera, you know, for sitcoms because they love that,

that feedback for the audience that only an audience can give you on a performance. You know, they really, you know, they really feel that. So they know if it's funny or not and, you know. Well, and I'm sure they've got great, like, I don't know how to describe it, but, like, audience feedback timing. Like, they know when to start talking. Oh, yeah. You know, they've always heard laughter, so.

Right, right, right. You always, you got to have, you got to have, I mean, you know, you learn a few things here and there. But you have to let it breathe a little bit, you know. You have to kind of, you know, wait for the laughter to die down a little bit before you deliver your next line because then people can't hear it. Yeah. You know, there's a cadence to that, you know. It's the same thing when you're on stage,

you know, giving a performance. You know, if the audience is roaring, you know, you know, you got to hit. You know, you got to, you know, you got to wait for them to die down. You know, you got to give them a little breather. You know, let them hear the next joke, you know. So in that respect, yeah, there's a lot of, you know,

there's a lot of, a lot of timing involved in multi-camera. You know, you've... kind of had this great situation where you seem to be the person they hired of like reboot or spin off a lot of shows, you know, Will & Grace, Frazier, that 90s show, you know, etc. And I was wondering what goes into a good reboot or spinoff? Well, I mean, in my end is that you have to kind of, well, obviously the writing has to be okay. you know i did the original will and grace right and then when we did their you know the reboot or whatever you know they wanted everybody back and you know we had such a great time on that show and

you know max much nick and dave cohan who created it they gave me my break you know to move up and so i i i felt like i really wanted to come back and do that you know because it was just a great experience for me and uh you know and that was an interesting concept too because the original was shot in film right and even the last season where I did move up I think NBC wanted him to go to tape you know and then you third inch just kind of yeah the old you know and this was in 90 no 2005 yeah and you know max and david said now I'm not doing that you know doing it now and that you know it would be jarring for the last season you know and yeah especially with anyway so in order to recreate you know we look um the apartment was

you know still the same basically you know a couple of upgrades and everything but uh we had to kind of uh you know have the nod to you know to the film you know right so it it worked out i think well enough but um that's that's the key is to kind of keep it familiar, but you got to, you got to, like, put your, you know, two-thirds of your body into the digital world. You can't, you know, you can't recreate something that doesn't exist anymore.

You know, you can just, you know, to me, you can just create the homage, you know, create the ambiance that will, you know, send you to the next level, you know, without jarring the audience, like you say, or, you know, or going too far where it's unrecognizable or it looks like you've done something that's not natural, you know? Right.

So it's just. I imagine that, you know, shows like Frazier and Will & Grace are comfort shows to so many people. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. It's got to be kind of an interesting tightrope to walk to, like, try to make it new and fresh for, you know, I assume the people are coming back from the old. old one. So I'm not, I don't mean today's audience, but just, you know, people's perceptions of film and media change all the time while still keeping that sort of comfort level.

You know, I imagine the, just having it be multicam, I'm sure, is just like comforting to a lot of people just to, you know, they're used to that cadence and stuff. Yeah. I mean, that's exactly it. That's why they keep it that way, you know, because it, you know, when it's a hit, it's a hit, you know, and like Will & Grace was a huge hit. Yeah. You know, the Big Bang Theory, which is, you know, was. too long ago, you know, a few years ago. That was a huge hit. And people...

Isn't it like one of the most famous... It's like the most syndicated or something show? Yeah, I mean, that show garnered, you know, as much as Super Bowl numbers, you know. Kind of under the radar, you know, people didn't really realize it. But shows like that, I mean, monetarily kept a lot of other shows afloat, you know, for Warner Brothers, you know. Yeah. I made them millions and millions and millions and they were able to fund other stuff that maybe didn't really, you know, CBS and Warner Brothers and maybe it wasn't as ludicrous. Sure.

But anyway, they managed to keep them in the black, you know. So everyone's trying to get to that brass ring again, you know. But I don't know if it's possible, but yeah, there wasn't that long ago that. That audience was there, you know, five years ago. I mean, that audience was there. So I'm assuming it's still there. You just have to get the right product out, you know. Yeah.

And I think it's possible again, you know. But it would have to be, it would have to be on a network because, you know, the streamers don't tell you what the audience is. It's a secret. It's a big secret. So at least with network, you know, the audience. is probably, you know, with DVR plus five days, whatever they do, you know, they can garner, you know, a huge amount of income by the sheer numbers, you know.

Yeah. And that pays the bills, you know. I mean, it's a- Someone's got to do it. I mean, I grew up, I grew up with television, you know, when I was a kid. And we always, there were commercials, you know. Yeah. You didn't like, you didn't necessarily like them, but they were there.

It was, you know, that was the way to pay the bills, you know. And they went back to radio, you know. Right. So, Desi and Lucy. Yeah. Yeah. Or, yeah, or listened to old time radio, you know. It was the Philip Morris hour or the Lux, you know, I mean, that's who had the money.

You know, it was their show, you know. So in that respect, I think, you know, it could happen, but it's not going to happen if no one's going to start pinching pennies. decide that, you know, they're going to do it and let's see what happens. They have to commit themselves and put their, you know, put both feet in, you know, and go for it. So I think it, I think it can be there again. Yeah. And I think, too, it'll be weirdly enough. It seems nicer if it's just a cigarette company or Tide sponsoring something versus, you know, the tech companies who are like, no, no, no, I want to be creative too. And they're not. Right. Yeah. And they're just starting to get their little fingers in there. And it's like, your opinion is great. But I don't need.

it's always this story you know that went back to you know like to say same thing like the radio days early TV days you know that the sponsor didn't like that you know yeah they still they still don't they still have something to say you know I'm sure you know I know but you know but I don't know how much how much they sway they have now but the only sway they have is to pull pull their sponsorship so I guess that's sway enough you know well and i know i just was given crap to tech companies but apple does have like every show on apple tv seems to be really good they're doing it and every dpf spoke to who's worked on an apple show has said they're completely hands off like they're just like yep there's a money to do the show

and they just get good people so that's fun i did that actually does make me think like you know uh when you got your career started there there definitely was more of a sort of mental block that you know, you either did television or film. There was not really any crossover. Now that seems silly. You know, everyone's good. Yeah, there's, it's, yeah, now it's just, yeah. Well, what kept you in multicam and not like, you know,

popping over and doing a film or two? Well, um, okay, well, that's a good question. Partly is, I just, you know, we've been blessed that we've had just so much work, you know, in multi-camera. was no, there was no need for me, you know, or no real, you know, I mean, I'd love to do a film, you know, an independent film or something like that. But, you know, you get sort of sometimes career pigeonholed, you know. Yeah. Oh, he does multi-camera. You know, they do horror. They do comedy. They, you know, even guys who do comedy and do horror, you know, they, they rarely cross over,

you know. Right. You know, I knew I grew up with, in a lot of cameramen and worked in a lot of shows. And, you know, they were, they were, there were a comedy cameraman, they were, you know, horror cameraman. They were, you know, action cameraman, you know, Western cameraman, you know, that's how it was. Same thing in directing, you know, it's, there was, the crossover nowadays, maybe is a little easier, I think, or different. But I'm going back to, you know, the linear TV days, you know, you just didn't do it. I mean, my manager like was had me up for a show and and they said oh um you know i think it was a single camera comedy you know and they said oh they like the way i forget i think it was will and grace the way the

way the women looked and everything and she goes oh yeah great so she says well yeah but he does multi-camera and this is you know single camera he says well if you like the way he looks they look in multi-camera think about how good they look with one camera lighting for one you know and they go oh yeah You know, they're like, you know, a little taken aback by that answer, but they still went with, you know, it was, it was still, it just didn't, you know, it didn't compute for them, you know. Yeah. So, and then the other, and the other thing is, I, you know, I wouldn't mind, I don't have any interest in doing some sort of a, um, a horror film, really. Right. Or, uh, or, um, some, uh, high violence, um, film, you know, people getting shot and people, you know,

John Wick doesn't need to call you No, not really I mean, I respect those movies I mean, I watch them sometimes But you know, day in and day out And I've done that, you know, as a camera system And everything and you know, you come, you come home And you're like, you're emotionally drained, you know

Yeah, I bet Like it's kind of like, you know, the actors Bring it to life, you know And it's like, wow, this shit's real sometimes, you know, it's like, oh, I got to I got to snap out of this, you know. Yeah. So, but I do, I do like to laugh

and I find that the multi-camera situation affords me a lifestyle that I can have, you know, I raised, you know, I raised a daughter. I was able to take her to school sometimes, you know, get to see some of her plays and go to her stuff because I wasn't working 16 hours a day. Right. I had one, one or two, you know, later evenings and everything else was, I was able to, you know, I was able to, you know, be off and, you know, and have a life, you know. I think that was, that was, you know, something that I figured out later, you know,

because like I said, I started out in the single camera world, you know, doing a lot of action, action TV shows, you know, and so I fell into it and I never left, really, so. Well, and yeah, this is going to sound mildly pejorative, but I don't mean it, but it multicam does, I just remember the only other multi-cam guy, I think I've spoken to, was Don Morgan. And he kind of said the same thing about like, it's about as, I'm putting words in his mouth. But it was essentially like, it's about as close to an office job as you can get as a DP because, you know, there's set times. You show up. You're done.

You know, you go home. You know, it used to be more that way. Yeah. I would agree with, with some of that. But nowadays, it's a little more fluid, you know. Really? Yeah. It's just, like I said, you know, the show runs.

They write different stuff, and the shows are a little more complicated, you know. So, yeah, but it's still, it's still a great way to be creative and not getting your brains, you know, beat out, you know, beat up every day, you know. Isn't it? Oh, sorry, go ahead. Yeah, no, that's, it's just basically it. You know, you don't, you know, you don't drag home every night, you know, and. You know, getting six hours sleep and trying to do it again. And, you know, I'm just...

And the location doesn't move and you get parking. Well, sometimes, yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's always the fun one. And they're like, all right, so we're working here. The parking lot is four miles away. We don't have a shuttle. Please bring you gear.

Right. Is there room, you know, I just had this thought. Is there room for improv in multicam? Or does everyone kind of have to stay locked down? Yeah, you know, it depends on, you know, the showrunner. depends on the writers you know sometimes they'll let them go a little bit and sometimes they're you know they're very uh they're very set you know in whatever it has being you know uh being written you know if they transpose a word or two sometimes but uh no i wouldn't say there's a lot of room

for improv i mean there's room to develop your character obviously you know every actor brings their own take to a character and then they expound on that you know but you know just general improv I don't know I think it's a in a case-by-case basis you know yeah yeah I would say I would say that's probably accurate sure uh well I you know that time flew by but I did I don't know if I had uh let's see congrats on all the freaking Emmy nominations is there's 107, that's pretty cool. Yeah, let's move on. Not a hundred and seven.

105, whatever. But, oh, I did want to ask, because you said you're moving on to the Venice. This is just a dumb direction. Is that changing your lensing and lighting at all? Are you just shooting Super 35 on that and keeping everything the same? We're shooting Super 35 on that, keeping this same.

However, the camera sensor is a little larger. And it's a little more sensitive than what we're using. So we're kind of adjusting for that a little bit, you know. So it's a little bit of a learning curve. But, you know, we've already shot like 16, about 20 episodes worth of TV with it already. Oh, right. I should say 20 episodes of Frazier. I was like, damn.

No, no, no. Eight to 20. No, 16 episodes of that 90 show that's going to drop next month. and three episodes of Frazier. So we're, you know, we've learned the camera, you know, it's a little bit of a learning curve as far as the sensitivity of it. You know, we're using it. But it's a much, it's a real clean picture.

And, you know, I really enjoy, I really enjoy it, actually. Two follow questions. I don't let you go. Related. Are you using, because of like the, you know, the, The Venice can be kind of clinical, depending on how you shoot it. Are you using filtration? And then also, did you guys have to, like, rebuild a lot for that camera that you then shoot with?

Or is there, like, much going on in the color grade? Is it a traditional color-based transform? Yeah. I mean, my lenses are sort of tuned by Panavision to my specifications. That's very good. Dan? Is it Dan? Dan?

Yeah. Yep. It's always Dan. And Dan's the man. Yeah. And I use a slight filtration, you know, not much because I don't want to recognize it, you know. Yeah. I don't like the heavy handed look.

So I use a mild filtration. And our lot, we just build a lot on the set, you know, for the show. So with, you know, our VC, we have a video control person. And we built a lot for the show. And it changes sometimes, you know, from, you know, set to set. Sure. But, and then, you know, then after it's posted, you know, and it's online, you know, I do go to color. So I have a colorist that we work with, you know.

So to recreate, we recreate some of it, you know, it's not always, you know, the same, obviously. Yeah. But, so the color grading is, I think it's an easier way now. It's just cleaner looking, you know. And like the lot is just a lot. It's just a lookup table for, you know, as it is for the set, you know. But it gets everybody an idea of what it's going to look like, obviously. It gives me an idea what it's going to look like.

Was there during the film days, and I'm just tacking on a second, sorry. yeah but during the film days were you as involved in the grade or did that kind of just go through like a one light and then well no no we i was i went to i went to well i went to dailies which is you know uh it was even more time consuming right because the dailies just want to make sure you just want to make sure everything is exposed properly and you know didn't lose the film backwards and there wasn't yeah it wasn't that much footage as there is now you know yeah so a daily And then, you know, our colorist, we work without colors, and then I'd go to final color, you know. So it was a little more involved in that respect. You know, I know, I don't have to go to dailies, because I've seen it.

I know what it is. Right. I've seen the monitor. So, dailies are, you know, that's my daily. Right. I don't need to see it. Yeah, I don't need to see it in the editing bay, you know, on an avid. You know, that's like going backwards, you know. Right, right.

So, you know, I don't need to see it. wait till all that's sussed out and then you know it goes to color and then i you know and then i with my colorist and we do the final color you know for for delivery so very cool man well uh i really appreciate you uh spending the time to talk with me and like i said it was uh it was really a joy to just be able to binge the whole season before talking to someone that's that's that's first time that you did that because normally you know it's if i'm lucky they just shot like one or two episodes of something and then i only have to block out two hours of time to sit there and, like, actually take notes, you know?

This time, it was, like, enjoyable. Oh, that's good. It was five hours of comedy. Yeah. I hope you laughed. I, in fact, I did. I mean, good, yeah. But, yeah, man, thanks again for spending the time with me

and enjoy the rest of your evening. Oh, that's my pleasure. Thank you. Frame and reference is an Al-Bodd production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so on Patreon by going to friend.

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