Frame & Reference Podcast - 15: "I Would've Loved You” (Jake Hoot ft. Kelly Clarkson) DP Jack Schurman

Episode Date: May 6, 2021

On todays episode of the Frame & Reference Podcast Kenny talks with cinematographer Jack Schurman about the Jake Hoot and Kelly Clarkson music video “I Would’ve Loved You.” Jake has DP'd a few shows including “Unnatural Selection” and “QB1: Beyond the Lights.” Jakes other work includes the TV documentary “MARS: Inside SpaceX” and “Wild Home”, a film for which he was nominated for Best Documentary Feature at the Brooklyn Film Festival and won the Audience Award at the Camden International Film Festival. Enjoy the episode! Watch the music video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZpG1DefuzI Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello, and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and today we're talking with Jack Sherman, the DP of the new Kelly Clarkson music video, I Would Have Loved You. Jack is also an amazing DP and director who's shot. commercials for BMW and beer companies and I believe he won an Emmy for a short he filmed so excellent cinematographer excellent filmmaker we had a great talk I you know I think he's a younger guy so he and I had similar sort of upbringings as it were him working more in not action sports. I was more action sports when I was working at Red Bull.

He was doing rafting, like white water rafting type stuff, which is cool. It was really interesting to hear how he was able to transfer that skill set, you know, filming that to his narrative and commercial work and music video work and stuff, which is neat. So, yeah, we had a great talk, like I said, and I think you're really going to enjoy this one. So I'm going to shut up and then immediately start talking when this music ends. So have a good listen. To start, how did you get into cinematography? Have you always been into like photography and images or was it something you happened into?

Or what, uh, how'd that come about? Actually it came kind of backwards to, uh, I do more photography now, but I, uh, I never did. You know, it's not like, uh, a lot of my friends or cinematographers came from. photography first um i just came from really just filmmaking wanting to make movies and uh uh always made them you know as a kid growing up and sort of did all the jobs with my brothers and stuff and then uh when i started working in him and i like you know i also like uh my dad had a whitewater rafting company so like kind of kayak down and like filmed the rafts coming down i was a video boater it's called so i'd film the rafts coming down and then get out halfway of the river and like go back and

edit the videos and then show them when they get back. And then in the winter, you know, there'd be no raft trips. So we'd have, me and my brothers would have all the, uh, the video equipment from like the RAF company during the year. So we'd just make tons of little movies. So we do kind of everything. But then, um, when I started working and trying to figure out a job, it's sort of just like what I was good at, interesting and could, you know, get the most work at and then just kind

of really liked it and, uh, you know, had more of a knack for it and patience. I like being on set, you know. So, you know, it's good to, you know, the energy and just kind of every day is different, going tons of places and seeing lots of things. So I think all those elements kind of got me into it. And I just, you know, you know, just grew to like just love the craft and just want to kind to spend a, you know, at least a portion of my life and time thinking, you know, kind of developing that and seeing how good I can get by when I'm 70.

Well, that's the, I mean, you look at people. like deacons and he's like saying how how small cameras are getting and he's fine and I'm like that's true he doesn't have to operate like you can just sit there and do that so you didn't go to like film school or anything what was your like sort of educational path just working on the videography side of it yeah I uh I did go I went to Vancouver film school oh word for one year yeah and now so you know that was another place where like kind of I think they uh I think they did, like, like better, I don't know, it seemed more, well, first we had great cinematography teachers. You know, that was kind of the main reason I went there is they had, you know, 16-mill film.

And, you know, I was, you know, at home making videos on like, on high aid and 8mm and VHS tapes, like, deck to deck. And I just really, I've been wanting to shoot film, you know, I was like 18, just dying to shoot film. And there was nowhere I could really do that. you know it's probably 2002 2003 and that was the place you know the schools I was looking like my grades weren't great you know so it wasn't like tons of options so that was a place where they're like you can shoot film so that was kind of why I chose it um but then you know I think that that that was a place I really kind of gravitated towards cinematography also did you have any mentors there because that's something that doesn't always happen yeah um in cinematography kind of everyone was pretty good

I wish I could think of our teacher Ricky. I can't think of his last name. He was great. But this one guy, Ken Hegan was a big one. He was our writing teacher. I still keep in touch with him, you know, just as a buddy, you know, this 12, 13 years later. I really liked him. And he kind of just, you know, if you were interested, would be like there's cool screenings of, you know, whatever weird movie you're into, you know, like this is going on, you know, and was always just great that way.

So I'd say he was probably the most lasting influence. For sure. So what, how did you, have you, did you initially gravitate directly into music videos or was there kind of an intermediary path or, um, no. I mean, most of, most of my career, I've been doing documentaries, um, both directing and and cinematography. Um, um, I've always, you know, shot narrative shorts, uh, and music videos. My brother's a musician. Um, his name's Luke Rathorn. So, you know, we've been shooting music videos together. forever. And then, you know, other friends of mine who are musicians that kind of do their music videos or shoot them whatever. And then sort of just picked up from there. But most of my, like, most of my work up until like probably the last year or two, I've started kind of shifting out of it more, but it's been documentary. And now I've kind of been going more towards narrative and music video, just for the change. I've been doing documentary for like 15 years, mostly, you know. Really? What is there like a specific sort of?

story that you tend to gravitate towards or was it just like shooting a lot of kind of whatever comes? I'd say directing there probably is. Like directing seems to be most of the projects I do. You know, it's not really conscious, but I definitely say they end up being, you know, stories of, hmm, that's a good question. A lot of people that are sort of, you know, uh, um, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, you know, uh, uh, uh, unique in the culture and society they're living in and, you know, and cultivate sort of a community around themselves and interests and, um, identity and personality. And, uh, you know, so I guess I wouldn't say, I wouldn't say loners necessarily because that's not always true. You know, sometimes people really, uh, you know, uh, have pretty deep social networks, but definitely maybe, maybe a little bit outsiders. Um, and then for a cinema's hard for you all over the place, you know, uh, sort of

whatever's the most interesting, which is what I like, or, you know, whatever, whatever makes the most sense. But that's what I love, you know, about documentary most is just, you know, the places you go, the people you see and meet and like the sort of breadth of like life experience, I don't think there's any other job where you can do that. And specifically as a cinematographer, it's really great, you know, doing both. What I love about being cinematographer is you don't have to, on documentaries, you don't have to, you don't have to maintain subject relationships as carefully or that's not the right term but it's like you don't have to have a you don't have to make your day in a certain sense of you know like

storytelling anything so you can kind of really drink up like environments and experiences and characters in a way that's like I actually find harder directing because you're kind of always part of your heads trying to make a story and figure out where it's going and like get enough to you know cut with um so you kind of get this looser thing and you're also not that person asking the questions you know to the subject so you kind of get this uh this sort of a very unique experience to it and it could be anywhere you know it been all over because of it you know all over the world and it's been great was there anything from the whitewater rafting that that that that style of cinematography whatever that was the action sports sort of cinematography

that you carried over into documentary any lessons you learned from that that helped you? I'd say packing efficiently for sure. Packing efficiently and protecting your gear. Yeah. And then I guess resourcefulness definitely. And I think that that extends really into documentary. You know, I find like in like narrative, music video, commercial, like the thing that is the most beneficial. Probably the two things are like finding a shot like in the moment, you know, that sort of cam-opping end. And then the other one is just, you know, know, just ingenuity when everything's broken and, you know, you have, you know, there's no chance of reshooting or, you know, pickups that's just not going to happen and you have to

figure out the best way to cover whatever you have, the best most interesting way, like on the spot in a flash and there's 100% not going to be any, you know, any way to get it back and like that kind of ingenuity, I think is essential. And that's, you know, it's just, it just always pays off no matter what the size of budget or, you know, scale of production. It's just, it's just, just a really helpful thing. And definitely, you know, like that kind of whitewater stuff, definitely kind of taught that early. But, you know, I mean, my friends who I grew up doing it with, they're all incredible, like, they can just, like, fly, you know, go to Columbia and fly drones, like, through, like, jungle trees, like, down in the rivers. Like, they're such crazy cable cam

operators and, like, drone pilots. They do lots of commercials, like, just doing that now. It's really cool. And I don't, you know, I don't, if I had to do that, I just hired one of them, you know, like, but they're really great, you know, drone-offs. It's just the stakes are so high, you know, when they're putting anything in there. And it's also a matter of, you know, getting, getting that equipment, you know, into, you know, some of the most remote places in the world a lot of times. Yeah. Is there, like, any equipment, you know, because we'd all love to pack every lens we have,

every piece of diffusion, whatever, whatever. Is there, what is the, like, piece of equipment that you wish you could take with you that you can't and what is probably the most overvalued piece of equipment that you think probably no one really needs, but everyone wants? Yeah, I'd say, like, things that I wish I could take and can't is usually like, you know, lenses that are a little too novelty for whatever needs to be done,

you know, just like too many lens options, you know, like just for fun. I'd say that probably gets scratched whether it's, you know, tight pack inner travel. And then... Not to interrupt you, but is there a focal length or a lens that you've really found pretty good for the utilitarian nature of that shoot? It depends. You know, like it really depends like it would depend so much on the shoot.

You know, like in narrative or music video, probably the limitations of lenses would just be to, you know, maintain a look or sort of set restrictions just for, you know, creative purposes. you know rather than logistics um in documentaries where i find like you got to like really uh come or like really figure that stuff out so i don't know what like like what lens length i'd certainly have or not have would probably depend on the shoot but uh i mean like i was like a zoom yeah yeah you know generically looking at i'd probably have a range of zooms you know to to cover myself um you know and if it was something else uh we just i shot this a little bit on this show, this Apple show, and it was all primes, you know, and, you know, that's a cool thing that's been going on in documentary,

shooting, you know, shooting all primes and no zooms. And that's, that's definitely fun, you know, like, it's just, you know, if that's the, you know, you're going to have a lot less coverage, you know, so you're spending more time on less shots, which is great, you know, and really fun if you can do it, you know, and it's sort of an architectural house building show, so you got, you know, it's not, you're not catching action on the fly and running around, You know, so much of it depends on the subject matter and the story. And, you know, I'd say the same in narrative, you know, if it was like, you know,

if it was a sort of a sort of film where you were shooting like, I don't know, like if you were shooting long lens, you know, multi-camera, you know, chop it up and editing, you know, it would be very different, you know, than something else. So, yeah, it's hard to say. I don't think I really have any, like, sort of blanket rules or anything I try to follow, you know, it really just depends on. what what seems interesting or makes sense you know for the for whatever's going on yeah and so sorry i did interrupt you though uh most most type no it works out because some people some people

definitely like for a long time um i i exclusively shot between 18 and 35 and that was it and on my own stuff it was that sigma that everyone loves so much um which held a look to everything but that lens is so neutral that I could goof with it and post or put a filter on it or something if I needed to but pretty much every documentary documentarian we've had on the podcast except for maybe two of them have all all did all their projects on like one or two primes oh really cool interesting yeah yeah I don't think I don't know any project that I've done on doc anyway that I've done on that few lenses I'm trying to think you cool though I think to be fun challenge, you know, for the right project, you know, where, where you could, you know,

obviously it's a dangerous thing to do, you know, if you're going to, if it's going to make it so you can't capture the story, but, you know, if it lends itself to it, you know, the time and space to make it work that way, you know, it's such a fun, it's like a good restraint, you know, to kind of force creativity in other areas, you know, and force you to kind of find things you might not otherwise. I like that kind of challenge. Yeah, and I think a prime tube, um, makes it so that you focus more on composition and less about like getting the shot like with a zoom I don't I don't think there's there's no sharpening that doesn't make any sense there's no like honed in focus you can be very willy-nilly with it that's why I like

shorter zooms because it only it's only like oh I can't stand any farther back I'll just give myself an extra little bit versus like a 24 to 200 you know stand wherever you want composition fuck it you know yeah yeah you know i think it's i think it's nice to you to like those kind of restrictions are great to set um you know i do feel like not necessarily like there's anything like overall that i really like logger leds or wider leds or prods or zooms but definitely like go through kind of phases you know and uh and i and i sort of seem serendipitous it's either you know the projects i choose to do um or you know like i'm only i feel like i've i've been very weary in the past of like, oh, I've been shooting like, you know, pretty wide lens

close-ups lately and like, I'm kind of bored of that, you know, like maybe I'm going to go on like much longer lenses for this next project and shoot everything like, you know, you know, one lens longer than I normally would or, you know, like everything that would be a 50s now in 85, you know. And then I kind of worry like, oh, is that, you know, you're doing that just because boredom or switching it up, you know, and is it like merited and driven by the material but then I find like it pretty much always like works out because you know whatever it is the serendipity of like project and interest and like wherever you're at you know like it's sort of often like lends itself to it you know like whatever style I'm like looking to shoot in at

the moment somehow some a project comes that's like in that realm even if it's a little different you know it'll be it'll scratch that itch you know well if you think of it like a painter um you know a painter probably makes using a friend of mine as an example like he'll have a series basically like he he works out this one idea that he's got for a few months and then you're never going to see that again because he like got it out and I think it could be the same thing with lens choice you can be the same thing with compositional choices support choices like you know certainly new new tools and gear and stuff can spur that on but I think techniques definitely can get stale and then you just don't feel as engaged and you can make anything

work generally absolutely yeah absolutely yeah and it's and it's so it's so crucial for me anyway to have you know those places to switch like i can't imagine ever you know doing uh doing something where it's that you're kind of just locked into like one show for like 20 years or something and you just got to do the same thing over and over i mean i could definitely do it if it's cool you know worst jobs for sure but like it wouldn't be like wouldn't be ideal for me i think you know i really like i really like the changing in subject matter changes in style approach like i think i think it's just crucial too because it always you know and like you were saying your friend who's a painter you know like whatever whatever shifting styles you might be working in in anything you know

it all like everything always feeds each other in ways you can never expect you know whatever or whatever techniques you develop in one, you know, one realm of filming or anything, you know, whether it's just like cinematography style or subject matter or dog versus narrative. Like everything just feeds everything else so much. Yeah, and in ways you just never expect, you know. And like, and then I always find like circling around to things like, you know, that you were into when you were first getting into, you know, first getting into your first work and figuring it out.

And then you kind of circle back and then just have all these. new insights until like when to use a technique or how to use it or you know like how to subvert it or use it in unexpected scenario yeah it's all like a toolkit because definitely you uh you you don't grow by remaining stagnant obviously so um yeah you know you might think you might think a technique or whatever is old but then there's always a project that's like we want something that looks like this and you're like I did a shit ton of that like two years ago. Totally, yeah, yeah. Just dive down the Vimeo hole, find some old, old work for sure.

I mean, it helps in that way, too, just getting work. And yeah, that's definitely true. Did you, oh, so the tail end of the, the question about lenses was what piece of equipment do you think is like, we don't need this? Oh, man, what is it? Don't need drone, probably, you know, although it depends. You know, sometimes you really do, but, uh, and now they're getting so small and great.

I don't know. Yeah, I'd say maybe that. I feel like there's something that's always bulky and annoying. Probably the thing I end up ditching the most that I want to take and end up being expendable on hard trips as a map box, I'd say, probably on dog trips. Do you use cameras with a lot of, or I guess you don't use a lot of cameras with built-in and D? Yeah, well, I mean, you know, it depends. Lately, I've been shooting, well, Alexa and the LF,

been shooting that fair bit, that's got it. But, yeah, Red Gemini. I shot a doc, a couple of feature docs on Red Gemini with Black Magic 4K and 6K as B cams and Gamble cams. And none of those had, you know, internal NDs, which is a super pain and a doc, especially, but I think in anything, you know, that's a big bonus for me for sure.

But, yeah, so I kind of get around it using, in a situation like that, like, you know, either a map box or screw on NDs with magnets, like little magnet, you know. Oh, interesting. Yeah, so I'll have like a pouch on my lens belt, you know, like a little filter pouch and like step them all up to 82 millimeter. or like all my my screw on filters are 82 millimeter

and just step all the lenses up to that and then just kind of swap NDs with a magnet on the front of them to whatever's needed and just have a couple filter belts like that so that's kind of how I get around no internal NDs on like when I'm shooting dock

you know on cameras that on like more sine cameras that don't have them it's not ideal yeah with the with the LF are you noticing a specific difference in the full format format? Or is it kind of

just like, do you think it's more of a fad? Sorry, sorry, you could have, what was that? Oh, with using the LF versus, you know, other traditional Super 35 cameras, are you noticing like a large difference between full format capture or is it kind of just like a fad or maybe only incrementally, quote unquote, better? Like, where do, are you seeing any difference there? Gotcha.

That was, it was still cutting out for some reason. But I think you were saying, do I think a large format is a fad over over super 35 or will it stick around as an option? I think it's like, to me, it's like kind of overblown, you know, the, you know, the, you know, I can't think of, uh, like I've been loving. I really like that camera a lot, you know, The LF's really cool, and it shoots beautifully. And, like, I'd say probably my favorite, you know, just blanket, set up, whatever,

just for beautiful images would be, you know, the LF with K-35s is amazing. And I love shooting that, you know, if there's a budget for, that's, like, just such a great image. And I love, like, you know, just, like, doing subtle filtration on that. And then it's just, you know, I feel like it could span so many different looks I'd want to go for. And that's awesome, you know. And you get, I love, you know, some elements of, you know, the field of view increase, you know, the depth of field obviously can be, you know, more of a pain in the ass than can be a help sometimes, you know, but like it can also be really cool. So, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I definitely think I could, I don't see why it would go away.

I mean, I think the biggest problem or biggest pain is it limits your lens options, you know. Aside from that, you know, I think a lot of the other. restraints are overblown, you know, or, yeah, I think it's great. I can't imagine it won't stick around, you know, for a different look and the advantages it does provide. Well, for me, it was, you know, I took a real, because I'm a giant nerd, I took a real, like, objective look, because I have a C-500, and I did a test against that and the Venice and the LF and the FX9. And really the only thing I noticed was, like, it's higher detail. Like, you get more. information regardless of like kind of what it's saving to because the grain is smaller the

you know you've got better perceptual contrast and stuff which which is good but I do I do tend to rally against people who are like not individuals I try not to but just this idea that like oh there's a there's a large format look it's if that look is like clean then yeah maybe or like detailed smooth I totally agree that I think doesn't be like it's overblown like I mean you know, it's certainly side by side, like, it's more, you know, it's more, you know, the practical limitations, you know, that, like, like, as consideration, like, whatever look you're going for in Super 35 or LF, you know, like, like, you know, it's not going to, I don't know, it's, you know, it's, you can pretty much get there either way, you know.

But the lens choice is definitely an issue. I have a set of Nycore primes. Oh, cool, yeah. The, the K35s are definitely like super popular right now. Yeah, it's crazy. I'm really bummed because they're so hard to. rent, you know, like, TLSK35s are always booked out. And like, that's, I love those. Yeah, those are awesome. Well, and on top of that, the, uh, FDs on eBay are like $1,000 of pop now.

Crazy. And it started to leak into the Nikors. Like now Nykors are like $250, $350, $500. Yeah, yeah. Per lens. And it's like, there's a million of these things. What are you people doing? Totally. Yeah. My neighbor's got a set of LikaRs that I use a lot also. those are really nice yeah they're great i love them and they'll like i just keep seeing them like go up and value like those are still a lot of them you know like a lot of them around but yeah it's it's crazy the vintage glass like sports trading cards it's like crazy market right now i don't even yeah it's like i love k3 viz but like only so much you know there's a right point where it's like let's get like props and stuff in a wardrobe instead like i can't hope this whole budget you know

for whatever there's a i've been doing a lot of um looking into eric measure smiths uh cinematography for reasons and uh and uh one thing that i'm starting to really come to realize at least with like david fincher's style of filmmaking is it's not about perfection it's about like getting a clean signal in like audio terms so the lenses have to be like zero character there's shooting the highest resolution possible, not because they're going to do anything crazy, but just for the super sampling, so you don't get any noise. Right, right, right, right, yeah. And so I'm like, you really can't, like, I was doing some tests, and you really can, like,

fake a lot of the lensiness in post pretty easily now. For sure, yeah. You know, I feel like that's, like, something that kind of, you know, that also, like, sometimes comes down to like a practicality of like that like how how technically difficult shots will be and like how much the resources like how much crew and equipment resources will have and feel like that's the balance of like whether to use vintage lenses that might be more difficult you know to achieve like a character and look or whether to you know pick sharper more consistent glass and you know filter it you know like I really like I never go too crazy like I use like a lot of

glimmer glass and black chromis and beyond that you know just be uh more like one off things but i used those two a lot um glimmer glasses are starting to pop up a lot like yeah yeah i love um tobias mentioned it for ma rainy he used a glimmer glass and all that no way cool i think yeah and he was shocked i had heard about it i was like i've got one yeah yeah um well they started making like screw on glimmer glasses and then i was like all right now i can use them, like, all the time. Yeah, I love Pomerglass. It's great. That's good. Yeah, and then Jenna

Rosher, she shot the Billy Ilish documentary. I think she was talking about using it, too. Oh, yeah, cool. I think it was her. But yeah, everyone's, it's like three of you brought it up, and at least the other two were like, oh, I didn't know people knew about that. That's funny. Yeah, probably like they all go in phases, you know,

like whatever's popular. But yeah, I mean, you know, like that, it's true. You know, you can do so much, you really can do so much in post, you know, like I've, you know, I color a fair bit, you know, and like just kind of getting into those kind of things like post-filterations, you know, like other than the biggest one I really feel like I never, I always lean away from is like, you know, like haze or atmosphere. Like I don't feel like I don't, I feel like I really see the difference in like smoke filters and like actually, you know, actually having that diffusion fill a room. you know, like lens diffusion rather than like atmospheric diffusion. But like aside from that, it is crazy what you can do. And sometimes, you know, like, I was shooting this, uh, this horror movie on, uh, like, like vintage Lomo animorphics that like weren't rehoused and they look so cool,

but it was like just, you know, super hard. You know, like I'm like, there's certainly no pulling focus on those. Yeah, yeah. And just, yeah, well, we actually, we burned out, uh, we burned out to, um, Did we do two? Yeah, I think we burned out like two focus gears just because it was so, the focus was so tight on him that it just kept like wrecking them. And we'd have to go like swapping at the rental house. And it was just a huge pain, you know, and like it looked really cool.

But, you know, we sacrificed a lot of setups. And in that case, it kind of worked. You know, we were doing like, you know, spending a lot of time on a few setups. But, you know, if that wasn't the case, it'd just be way too, way too prohibitive, you know, for what you gain. So yeah. I mean, I do think, like, you know, like, you know, there's so many other, I got, definitely got buddies who are just filter collectors, you know, and like, you know, like, I always think about that, just kind of branching out, you know, just throwing some heavy, cool stuff on some sharper lenses, you know, you definitely have more, uh, more technical versatility. So I'm not against it at all, you know, just depends. I've found myself using, again, more like technical filters. So like contrast filters. Yeah, cool.

to, not truly, but kind of squeeze more dynamic range into the image. But I mean, now with like this, now that I have the C-500, like, I've got more dynamic range than you can possibly want. Right, right, yeah. One rig that I just came up with that's kind of funny is, so I got like the C-500 and then I got the pancake 40 millimeter. Cool. And then, which looks, it just looks like a body cap basically. and then I put anamorphics anamorphic adapter in front of it. So the whole camera is only a foot long,

but it's autofocus anamorphic, sort of. That's wild. I kind of want to, like, it's only one. I mean, I could put any other lens on it, but just that small little package. I got to find the right project for that, but it's just one focal length. But it looks goofy.

Yeah, yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, that sounds really cool, man. But with the face tracking, like, I can just worry about, keeping it steady you know yeah so it's that good huh it just tracked there the face tracking yeah um the animorphic if they get too close yeah i mean i never really used it but like i yeah it seems like it's just getting to an incredible place i'm i'm probably oh for doc for sure i'm probably like well it depends if i'm shooting the nightcore prime's definitely not but depends on the shoot like

if it's just like a commercial or something you can just pick a face and lock onto it and it doesn't it won't lose it you know so it's like why why bother you know if it if it's perfect it's perfect i don't need i don't need someone there with a wheel just because that's the you know proper way quote unquote proper way to do it yeah totally i mean you know it makes it and i can even imagine you know uh you know not even running gun scenarios but just in a say like a two camera interview where you're monitoring one of them you know like no exactly great time to just have more usable time in it, set a little bit shaller focus than you would if you were just going to abandon the camera, you know, like, yeah, it seemed really, could be a lot of

application for that. Yeah. That's great. Were there any, like, film influences that you had grown up or any movies that you really, like, thought, you know, that's the look I want to go for, and are there any now that you have? Oh, yeah, for sure. That's, I've always, like, you really love movies, like, just always. You get hope. Yeah, I just like, I love watching tons of movies to this day.

But I don't know, like as far as influence is probably all over the map. Like, my favorite filmmakers, like, all time are probably, like, like Herzog and Nicholas Rugg. And, like, when I was, I still do, but when I was, like, younger, I really, really love Terrence Malick,

like, more than anything. I'm sure. Probably always wanted to make everything, look like him probably between him and like herzog was by biggest like just trying to make um i don't know emulate like looks um and also like uh some i like i feel like i like i try to do a lot in everything like docs and narrative not everything like music video but like is uh things from like like altman that aren't really necessarily just cinematography but like you know just like try and get everyone miced and shoot on really long lenses, you know, with, like, the entire world

might, you know, like, shoot on 200s, just sniping from, like, different weird angles, you know, and so, like, things like that, really fun. Yeah, I don't know. I'd say, like, different things from different places. I'd say definitely now, especially not, like, any one thing or filmmaker I'd really, like, is, like, I'm trying to look like, or trying to emulate, but probably, like, just little things from lots of places. I'm trying to think other people who really, really, like, affected me.

Lately I've been really, really into Tarkovsky, who I never really watched that much. And I'm just been watching, like, Salaris and Stalker and, like, all those, like, just kind of over and over, just kind of, like, mining them for just all those, like, really out there ideas. But, yeah, I don't know, like, I had the first episode, technically second, but the first, like, episode of this podcast was with Josh Richards, who shot Nomadland. Oh, cool. And he was talking about how Tarkovsky was one of his, like, big ones. And I had to sit there, you know, it's the first podcast. I'm still, like, figuring my shit out.

But I'm looking at Josh, and I'm just like, I have not seen one of that man's what the fuck. Like, and I went to film school and everything. So I went and bought, what's that, Ways of Seeing? No, sculpting in Time. Ways of Same is completely different. But yeah, I still haven't, I got a whole book show. of just like books I gotta fucking read but yeah same yeah I'll tell you what

podcasts take a lot longer than you think it's not just the hour of us talking then gotta edit the damn thing and the transcript oh boy anyway yeah I mean it's me you know that's what's so cool is you know like that's like a filmmaker I've always known of and I know I saw Salaris a long time ago for whatever reason you know it's like you visit and it's just all new and just totally different and just blows your mind and then you just go down the rabbit hole, like, all right, tonight I'm watching this, tonight I'm watching this, you know, and then,

and then same with DPs. Like, that's how I find, like, all these DPs, you know. I mean, I think same as anyone, but, like, from, like, a really, really small town, you know, in Maine. So it was sort of, you know, and, like, you know, early internet, you know, I was born, like, 84, so it was, you know,

all DVD store, record store, finding things out of friends, and then just kind of reading from there and there and there, you know, and then, like, yeah you know and like finding all those old filmmakers and all the connections you know like you find out like get into terence mouth and realize like sam shepherds in days of heaven you've been reading the sam shepherd play and then like all these things are connected and like like like nicholas rog you know like was a dp you know and i always think of him as like an editor or not as an editor but like his editing techniques you know and walk about or don't look now that's what i always think of like if we're trying to emulate him you know it'd be like nicholas rog editing techniques But then you find out, like, he started as a DP and, like, shot, like, Robert Corman's, like, favorite directorial, like, mask of the red death, this Edgar Allan Poe adaptation, then, like, just kind of all these interconnections,

all these people you, like, kind of idolize, you know, and I think especially, like, when you're in a small town or something, you're just really disconnected from, like, anywhere where you'd see it, or that would be a possibility. It's such a cool, like, scavenger hunt of, like, these things that are cool, you know, that, like, you're, like, just starting to learn about. And, like, that kind of never ends, too, which is really cool, you know, like, you know, then you get into Tarkovsky and it's, like, him say, sharing Sven Nekwist for, like, for, um, sacrifice, you know, and, like, taking Bergman's DP and, like, what they were doing and, like, how they were shifting. Like, it's just so cool, you know, it's such a intricate, uh, overlapping of, like, people who, like, like, like each other's work and you wouldn't think they'd work together, but then they do. And it's just incredible in different ways. well it does make uh i completely agree i love you know especially if you're watching something from

someone you like and then uh yeah you see that connection you're like i really like the cinematography in the credits roll then you see that connection you're like oh yeah you know that person with that person it's like no wonder like they're like you know they like whatever that common thread is that connects them like that's the thread that's like where where i want to live you know like whatever that is you know i think of it in lineages like things that i enjoy I like I to not to like toot my own horn because I'm definitely not there but like uh to have an idea of like if there's a lineage of this whatever this vibe is this feeling this cinematography these films I want to put myself at the end of it and try to like make that a goal you know yeah

yeah totally but it also like because I also grew up in a small I was born in San Jose you know big city and then moved to a really small town of 5,000 people and I think seeing those connections makes a big industry feel smaller. Yeah, right. You can identify with it more when you're like, oh, it is like kind of, not really, but it is kind of like friends still making movies just more money.

Yeah, it's like, oh, like, you were in like this high school band and I was in this high school band, but then like they all like went off and now we form a new band. It's like it makes it like it's the connection of the artists like kind of like, and like when you see, those and like their interest and magnet and like uh sort of attractions towards each other you know like it uh it takes away the like intimidation of like whatever business or you know

like how difficult it all is well and for me too especially like i i'm i'm excited this is going to sound really strange but you might get what i'm saying like i'm excited to get away from corporate like cinematography yeah that makes like you know obviously there's corporate it work like and that's whatever that's that's technical but even just like when they at when people ask to use your creative mind to like sell stuff oh yeah or hit hit a target you know we need it to look exactly like this like those groups of filmmakers together uh feel like they're kind of left and they're not obviously but it feels like they're kind of left to their own devices and i would like to get to that point yeah you know and like whatever whatever budget that is whatever like

you know if that's a single location you know doing whatever you know whatever the whatever the limitations that need to be put or like parameters that need to be set to make that happen you know that's so the place to be much better than like than just stretch too thin compromising beyond like what you think's quality you know like trying to I don't know you get kind of over like like swinging for the fences and whiffing you know and it's like more like I just fucking bunt and then like just you know whatever whatever you know like you know like but do it good you know like and like and that's more enjoyable a lot of times you know yeah it's it you know it's like the whole uh we want it like lit like this

and we want the whatever teal and orange and then you just go yeah boop boop boom all right roll it i do like especially like that's actually one thing i really like about cinematography over like kind of other things in film um you know is that like like more than editing or directing or writing or any of the other things I, like, have interest in. Like, I like, like, the craft of it is, like, really enjoyable just in a pure craft sense. So, like, a corporate video or whatever, like, I get really irked sometimes trying and direct something like that or just trying to invest, like, what you're talking about, like, investing, like, sort of giving yourself away, like, part of yourself to, like,

some corporate thing. But, like, in Cinemtarvi, I don't really care as much because it's always, like, sort of, it's always, like, a chance to practice something, you know? It's all like, you know, and like that's what I love the most about it is like the more craft and art part even where it's like, you know, like all the best people are like deacons are like, you know, in their 60s and 70s. And like the fact that it's like a lifelong craft and like the only way to really become a master is to light, you know, 100,000 rooms. You know, there's no shortcut to light in 100,000 rooms. And like that's like the coolest thing in the world, I think. And like, so like in that sense, like I really like it just as a job much more than other things are filmed because like I don't really mind. you know those like there's like practices about like like whatever it is you know like if there's like this stupid interview like something i don't like the idea of it's like well try and figure out a way to make it work and that doesn't like that doesn't uh whatever damage my artistic ego the way like other positions do like i can i still can kind of enjoy just the craft

challenge of it and whatever it might might come from it well and there's that's the other thing too is like I'm I'm perfectly happy with with delivering a product on time and on budget and not thinking too hard about it especially like I've gotten more into a color correction and that's definitely a place where like I have no fucking ego like I'll definitely I'll admit like if I shoot something and someone's like this looks like ass I'll be like well I thought it looked good but with coloring you know they're like I don't you know this looks wrong for me and like, all right, tweak, tweak, tweak, you know, there's no, uh, yeah,

that doesn't hurt my feelings. Yeah, I also, I've been getting really, uh, you know, into coloring lately and, um, and I had an old roommate who was a colorist, you know, and learned a lot and then just deep into the years and like, I'm like, you know, my friends, you do that. It is like, it's just such a crazy subjective thing that, uh, you know, it's really tough. Like, I feel like so much of like job of a colorist is like communication and like discerning what the DEP and director are like trying to let you know what they're going for without like the you know and oftentimes I think like even DPs especially like just the terminology is just not quite there to like explain what you want in a color you know and um and and but it is so

subjective you know like there really is no there's so rarely a right or wrong and it you know it's just hates you know so yeah it's so interesting um but it's also yeah it's it's incredibly like educational but like to learn coloring like you know really diving into resolve and spending pandemic kind of learning that like i feel like it's been like really really changed how all approach cinematography in a lot of ways you know and also what you can get away with especially if you're having that amount of control and repost you know like if you can get on to color it then you can kind of know where you can push things more and more you know the more you do it which i think is really cool yeah i'm actually writing an article now for

Pro Video Coalition, and it is about how cinematography now, with where digital cameras are and where the sort of data capture of cinematography is, cinematography has one foot in production and one foot in post-production. So if you're a cinematography, this is more for people listening who are maybe learning, you're really going to have to figure out the color tools. You don't have to be a master of them necessarily, but you got to know what's going on in post because you got to know what you can do with the data you're capturing and then ensure that what you wanted to happen is happening because the footage can just get taken from you and it'll look like, look at Zach's, I just used this in the last podcast, Zach Snyder's Justice League looks completely

different than Joss Whedon and the poor DPs just sitting in the corner like, oh, neither did I, but I saw a comparison. Oh, dude, it's completely different. No, the Whedon's version looks like a Marvel movie. It's very colorful, very bright, very soft. He did go and re-shoot a bunch of stuff, which

helped because then he lit it really evenly. Whereas Snyder's version, which I just watched, very dark, very edge-lit, very silhouette. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. And I was looking it up and the DP was pissed. Yeah, I actually saw

that. Yeah. He was like the Whedon, I think he called the Weiden version like a slaughter like it was something brutal where he was just like that's not what we shot yeah yeah i mean you know you put so much work in and then it just gets changed entirely yeah it's rough i definitely sympathize that sounds crazy yeah so i just so i'm encouraging everyone listening like sorry got to add another cool another tool to the kit like figure out i wholeheartedly agree and also just like yeah and like what you learn about like like like color and like limitations of of uh of image capture you know and like where you can lean in

where you need to be careful like it's just like it really really changes things you know to see like what you can do with that image you know like yeah it's really amazing oh a big one for me it's been i feel like that's a go ahead no no go ahead i was going to say a big a big one for me has been relighting oh i think we're lagged up all right yeah relighting in color Yeah, so if it's not too hard, you can put fake flags in resolve. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's like a thing I feel like I'll, I've done a tiny bit, but, you know, I can't imagine a day where I could just like light everything as flat as possible at even exposure and then like do it in post. Because I feel like that's that that's where we'd cross the realm of like, like, you know, I think, who we're saying?

There's a Brian DePama documentary that came out. It was really fun. It was cool. And he was kind of talking about, like, what he doesn't like about CGI is that, you know, there's no, there's no room for happy accidents. There's never going to be, like, it's all preconception. And it's just renderings of preconception, you know, which is what, like, I get real bored with a lot of comic movies sometimes because of that.

But I feel like that would be, like, the tipping point for me of, like, like, I'm not going, you know, unless I had to because of time, like, I can't imagine a time where I wouldn't try to light, you know, at least get the contrast ratio of the subject at the very least and try and do something with the background just to like like find that, find the look on the moment rather than in post. I feel like that would be that's kind of like the division as it progresses because it's like, because I can definitely see that coming where you just light everything flat and then build the lighting and post. But like I just can't for that reason I think I can't imagine wanting to do that because like you just like that's when we find the image.

you know, is like in the space, you know, like, and well, I don't even know if it's, I don't even know if it's physically possible to just like flat out, flatly light something or it'll look really goofy. Yeah. For me, it's just been like, you know, if I can't kill the spill on the wall, knowing what I can do and resolve and just go like, oh, I can take that down. We're not. And that's what's amazing.

100% totally. Like knowing you can do stuff like that can just save you, like the time that matters, you know, where you get whatever you need. get you know and like I totally that's the kind of thing that can just like really change things for you and knowing what you can can get away with you know like yeah I guess I guess that's the caveat is knowing what you can get away with and still have it look natural and like be the intent not you know it's fixing it's fixing for time it should be a time thing not like a creative thing yeah it's like fixing what you can't yeah fixing what you can't do because of time constraints or

whatever resource constraints rather than like you know like planning on you know design it and post you know like her like that would figure out the look and post that's where it's just too far i wouldn't like that well yeah i feel i could get boring really fastly yeah exactly even it's boring yeah totally uh so talk to me about this uh music video the is it it's kelly Clarkson, right? Yeah, Kelly Clarkson and Jay Coot. Yeah, so how'd you get a hold of that? So the director, Taylor Balancing, we'd never met or worked together, actually, but we crossed

over in a lot of different worlds of just different stuff, documentary, and we both shot a, she's a great photographer and cinematographer also, and we both shot, like, Sports Illustrated stuff and Sports Illustrated swimsuit in the past and different things. So we, like, have a lot of just connections, you know, heard about each other. And she just had this video out here, you know, and it was right in the midst of COVID. And then both Jake and Kelly were out here. And somehow they had, they had access to the Wiltern to do this video, you know, but it had to be very, very constrained, you know, other than Taylor, who came in like a while before, you know,

it had to be very local, very small crew. So there was a lot of, a lot of constraints and a lot of difficulties in it. So we kind of like had to figure that out in pre-production. And I think like our kind of our backgrounds and that sort of like she also does doc, you know, like was that really helpful in that because we had to stretch, you know, like very small crew to that. But yeah, that's how that came about. Basically she just, you know, she was directing and hit me up to DP and started working. on it. So talk to me about that pre-production process. What were you trying to avoid? What were you

trying to get done? What were the challenges of having the small crew and a location that I'm assuming didn't allow you to use the lights that are built into the set or the stage? That's one thing. And they were really awesome there. They were so helpful. But, you know, I've been to shows at the Will Turn before. And I've never really done much live stuff. You know, live events. I mean, maybe like, you know, just in a purely camera thing, but not that much. Anyway, you know, I was like, like we had the use of their

house lights and the lighting technicians. I'm like, oh, maybe we can, you know, get away with mostly this. Not that much, you know, like bands come and they bring like their lighting packages, you know, or like, you know, whatever it is, there's not that much stock, you know, in the theater. There's a few spotlights, a couple of things, but not like,

not enough for sure. So a lot of it was, you know, and we only had one walk through day, the COVID restrictions were pretty strict at that time so uh you know it was mainly um the big decision was how to use and show the space with like those extremely limited resources like do we make it look like a closed theater with like a single spot on each of them you know and do it like that and then you know try and milk some sort of like bringing lights up at the end and it was really tough and sort of

the thing we landed on. And then also, you know, gear-wise, you know, we didn't have crew resources budget or anything to really shoot to like, to lights. Well, so basically what we ended up doing was shooting on the Blackmagic Pocket 6Ks at 3,200 ISO to sort of stretch our lighting package more than anything else. Because we were only using small lights.

You know, we had a two-man G&E team. And the other thing was, you know, we were moving from the stage to backstage to like up in the balcony. I think we did something like almost 60 setups in like 10 hours. It was just a ton of, yeah, it was ridiculous. Yeah, with a very small lighting package that we had to flip, you know, a lot, you know, every other setup or so. So pretty much the only way to get there given those resources was to was actually sort of what we were just talking about, a like a predetermined post-production hybrid solution of shooting 3,200 ISO and then relying on noise cleanup, you know, and resolve, which is where I got, you know, much more educated

in the noise reductions in there. So yeah, you know, and like that, and it wouldn't have been possible otherwise, you know, you know, shooting it at a, that cameras, other, you know, it's a dual ISO, but shooting at 400 ISO, really shooting anything less, you know, it would have been just had to completely change the approach, you know, and I think any other approach would have been very not what we wanted to do. So, yeah, in that sense, like a kind of like that, that, that consideration of like, of what you can push and what you can get away with or compensate with and post really made that possible and made it work and happen. And really opened my eyes to those possibilities. I've actually shot like a number of things similarly since, you know, short

films or whatever where it's uh you know i've kind of used that you know if i don't want to you know if i want broad soft light and you know have those restrictions i'm much less hesitant to you know push to 3200 ISO and clean up the noise imposed yeah were you shooting b raw or are we compressed b raw um b raw um b raw 3 to 1 constant compression and um the 6k 2.2.40 um you know, the widescreen, like, mode in it. Yeah. Yeah. Have you gotten a hold of the pro yet?

No, no, I haven't. I haven't shot it. It looks great, though. I mean, the ND is long, you know, that's huge. And they are articulating screen. I mean, those are the two, those would be my two big wishes for that camera. I love that camera. Those would be my two big requests.

Yeah, that really does seem like they just took every complaint. I did a review of that camera. And those were like my three big things. I can't move the screen. and it's dark. I can't, I don't have internal NDs and there's no, what do you call it? I are. There's no IR filter. I like how you knew what I meant when I was doing this. Well, that's, you know, that would be my other big one that I would love. I wish, you know, is on there. But. So, but hopefully with the built-in NDs, they're IRNDs. Obviously, I have

yeah, I hope so. I mean, I've got a screw on one. You know, it's not the end of the world. But it seems like, I think that's not that hard. And the little eyepiece. But, yeah. So was there, so what was the look that you ended up with in the music video kind of just determined by what you had there? Were you, what are you modifying it in any way? You know, as far as like the, the, like, character of the color, really we're going

for like, you know, bright, poppy, you know, fairly saturated, fairly high, contrast most of the time, not necessarily on them, but like subject to background. So yeah, I'd say like most of that was determined by like, you know, trying to get close to Lutz in the monitor on the day, you know, and then a lot of it was, you know, noise cleanup and adjusting for skin tones and some of those things that are tough and real low light. So, yeah, but I'd say like in general the look, we pretty much tried to hit on the day, you know, with their in camera lot. Yeah, the one thing that I'm speaking of monitoring, again, going back to looking up

Measure Smith's work, he was saying that monitoring an HDR, not necessarily shooting for HDR display, but just monitoring an HDR lets you see the majority of the sensors dynamic range. So even more so than monitoring an SDR, in HDR, you can see exactly. like, all right, that's going to, I'm not going to have that or that's going to blow or whatever like that. Right, right, right. I'm interested in trying that at some point. You know, that's really cool.

That's so interesting because I so often do the exact opposite. And a lot of times, you know, especially if I don't have, you know, if I'm just releasing it to post afterwards, you know, I'll monitor in rec 709 just to, you know, to ensure those limits, you know, to ensure like highlights and shadows and just. those basic things and color levels like exist well in rec 709 because I don't you know I can only assume that's the space that will end in you know and be colored in and processed and worked on so a lot of times they're just doing that like I feel like on on things where I do have control over post I might try and you know build a lot for the day you know or scroll through some luts

and see what I like and then go off of that but yeah it's it's cool that's a really cool idea I think like, you know, certainly if it was like a project where I was involved throughout post, definitely, you know, and blue the color, that'd be a really cool thing to do to kind of push things even further, you know, because, yeah, I feel like I'm more often protecting towards, you know, either Rec 709 or Rec 2020 or something, you know, something more constrained, you know, so that, so that whoever is, you know, working on in a post if I'm not involved in the color, you know, has, you know, has. isn't uh isn't dealing with levels that are too far too far away yeah that's another thing that i think people don't like uh newer folks don't kind of get into is like designing your own lut there's a lot of a lot of power in that totally yeah especially if you can deliver it if like you monitor for it and then you deliver it to post and you're just like like i know on this one it'll just save the let that you're using like you can save the let to the sd card with all the proxies on it i think yeah or in the side car i don't fucking know but um

I actually did it the opposite way. I've modified the color response in my camera so that just the R-E-Lut works. Oh, cool. I just chuck that on it. It looks perfect. That's wild. Cool. Yeah.

I mean. Pandemic has been a lot of time on my hands. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's a great thing, too. And, you know, like, also, like, more getting to color. And it's like, like, when I was coloring, like, up until, like, this past year, where I really got much more into it and into resolve and stuff. You know, I kind of, I never really worked with Lutz that much even coloring or on set,

maybe on set even more. But, you know, just kind of when you, especially when I've done it, you know, on bigger projects, just bigger color projects. Like, it's just the time saving is just huge, you know, like, and yeah, if you can pass those lots forward, you know, it's just, yeah, I mean, you can basically, you can just ensure you're getting a lot closer to, to what you wanted to do, you know, if, you can, you can, if you're not, you know, if you're not involved in the post process, which, you know, a lot of times it can't be. Or even just like, even if they're not going to use your lot, just seeing as a reference.

Right. You know, this is where I was headed. Yeah, yeah. What everyone do, this is what I had in mind. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, we're coming up on the tail, that time travel so quickly. Yeah.

Flat circle. Yeah. No, I was thinking, oh, man, an interview, what I'm going to do? But it's like, oh, I was talking cameras and stuff. This is easy. that yeah that's the that's the that's all I do it all the time anyway dude that's literally how I started this podcast was I was like it was pandemic times I was talking to the people at pro video and I was like

I cannot talk to my girlfriend about cinematography anymore she fucking hates yeah like I need to start talking to other people I'm just gonna make a podcast um my wife always said she's like are you guys talking about numbers again oh yeah yeah yeah two which one's the one you like to two to cool um just ramp numbers all day it is it is a lot of it is funny because like you i think i am not a math person by any means but you have to learn so much math to be a cinematographer and then you have to not think about it yeah it just has to be instinctual yeah yeah yeah absolutely

yeah it's it's so cool it's a great it's a great life without a doubt yeah uh but So I like to end each podcast with two questions. One, and I'm going to ask them separately. I've asked them together too many times and then no one thinks about the second one. First one is what a piece of equipment or life change did you adopt that you think most appreciably affected your work as a filmmaker or specifically a cinematographer? So it could be equipment, it could be meditation, whatever, something that you think. most helps you out. I'd say, wow.

I know this is going to be one of those where I think of something really good in five minutes, but I'd say meditation's a good one. That's new for me, but I feel like that's already paying big dividends. Totally. Dang, what's a good thing? Probably like, I don't know, Sunday. tracker app's pretty great that yeah that was a big that's a big advancement you know like i use all the time wherever i am unless i don't have signal um a lot of the documentary folks

said good shoes oh man good pants that's what i'd say like yeah the 686 everyday pants my favorite by far have you heard that Adam Carolla rant about cameraman pants like Cameron have pants they're all cargo I assume it's actually you should look at it up

it's on YouTube it's like it's all animated and he's like Cameron has pants and then just goes on how it's all like they just have pants that like you zip off the bottom and then they're shorts you know and it's like any like cinematographer will die like listening to it's it's very astute but yeah i'd say like comfortable clothes stretching stretching is probably the biggest thing

i'd say that stretching like every morning every it's like the biggest thing to like not get hurt you know like especially you're doing dogs we're traveling all the time you're just like on a plane then jump up and go and like you know and if you're hurt you're screwed what are you gonna do you know the second i hit like probably that that's a good one the second i hit like 28, 29, you just don't, they tell you, they warn you your entire life. You're not going to be this bouncy. And then one day it's immediate. Yeah, totally. And then, but then the good thing is if you like, if you don't, like I think it's good to like delay your peak because if you kind of treat your body like crap through your 20s and teens, you're kind of always not ever feeling that

great, you know. But then like you hit that point where you got to start taking care of your stuff you stretch you better like feel like in a lot of ways better now you know so like you delay the peak and delay the peak and you're always kind of feeling a little better just thought you got to do that crossover tantric flexibility um yeah that oh fuck I threw out my back uh so I like I was trying to go to sleep and I couldn't go to sleep and so I was I like I was feeling restless right so like hopped out of bed and I did like a quick stretch like a 30 second stretch just to kind of And I like, I don't know what I did, but I tried to like lay on the ground and do like the, you know, and I fucked something popped in my lower back. I couldn't walk for like a week.

It's sleeping, man. It's all, I just, uh, I was, I was working on a documentary in Saudi Arabia for like three years on and off going there a bunch of times. And that's how it always get hurt. And it's like the most intense shoot we had like one of the final, the final day. and I just ripped my neck out, just sleeping. I just, like, woke up back, never sleep great over there. So, like, I'm like, ah, like, wrench my neck. And then, like, the next day, and, like, I could barely move.

And then, like, we're leaving and, like, about to go on this 15-hour flight. And I'm, like, just, like, in, like, sea his pain and it's, like, and, like, I'm, like, trying to tell them, they're like, what'd you do? Or are you, like, running or, like, boom? I'm, like, I was sleeping and, like, twisted weird. Like, I can't walk anymore. Someone else shit. The hotel pillow was too soft from my neck.

Yeah, yeah. No one has any sympathy, but it's like, seriously, like the most often way to get hurt, I feel like, it's just sleeping and twisting weird or whatever. Yeah. Oh, so second question, is there anything, any personal projects or anything that you'd like to promote? Yeah, for sure. I'm currently working on a documentary. that I'm directing about maybe a girl who ran for the U.S. House of Representatives for California.

So that's, we followed her campaign throughout into pandemic. It's pretty interesting. So I'm working on that, which hopefully will be done later this year. Other than that, yeah, that's probably the thing that's maybe hopefully. coming out soon. Everything else is probably a ways away. Cool. Well, thanks so much for spending the hour.

It was a great talking to you. You too. Thanks so much. We'll have you back. We're coming up upon the time where reoccurring guests are probably going to be a necessity, so we'll just tack you onto the list. Oh, man. Anytime.

Right on. Well, thanks again, and we'll see you later. Yeah. Talk to you soon. Later, bud. Frame and references in owlbot. production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by

Pro Video Coalition. Our theme song is written and performed by Mark Pelly and the F-At-R map box logo is designed by Nate Truax of Truaxe branding company. You can read or watch the podcast you've just heard by going to provideocoolition.com or YouTube.com slash owlbot, respectively. And as always, thanks for listening.

Thank you.