Frame & Reference Podcast - 153: "Bam Bam: The Sister Nancy Story" DP Lucas Joseph

Episode Date: August 1, 2024

This week I'm pleased to have Lucas Joseph on to talk about the work he did bringing Sister Nancy's story to life in the film "Bam Bam" which recently premiered at Tribeca. Enjoy! Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.frameandrefpod.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for everything F&R ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠You can now support Frame & Reference directly on Patreon!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coast's leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠⁠Filmtools.com⁠⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello, and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and you're listening to Episode 153 with Lucas Joseph, DP of the documentary Bam Bam, The Sister Nancy Story. Enjoy. Yeah, the past like, I want to say four, like four out of five interviews have just happened to get derailed by the D.P. being a magician. So we end up just to accept magic for the whole time. Like first it was Larry Fong. And that was intentional. And then it just like everyone after that, it would get brought up and they'd be like, oh, fuck. No, me too. So it ends up being a magician. It's funny how it's like right beside the ASC clubhouse too, right? Yeah. There's a weird connection between deepies and magicians. I think that's absolutely the best like dual membership you could possibly have in Los Angeles.

But yeah, it's like the most common I've seen as like magicians, uh, drummers or bassists somewhere around there and architects all see. to be like people who became DPs and I don't know what the architect thing is because you'd think it'd be production designer but everywhere they all become DPs yeah there's there is definitely a visual kind of aspects to things and obviously a precision from anything as well so maybe it's kind of tied into needing more creative output um from that but uh that's interesting I play a little bit of bass as well so see there you go I fell into the category Have you been watching anything cool recently?

Just watching The Boys, actually. New Season just came out first couple of episodes. You know, very interesting. We've a bunch of Canadian DPs on that as well, notably doing the cloud. Yeah, great work on the visuals. And the story, you know, it gets kind of intense and interesting. We'll call it that. Yeah.

Yeah, I haven't seen any of the new episodes. I was able to interview Dan Stoloff who shot season one, I think. It might have been two one of them, but I did hear I think the director say that there's something in this this season that was like absolutely the grossest thing they've ever made. I feel like they top it every episode. Yeah, I couldn't even tell you what exactly that. I think I don't you're talking about, but there's a few of them in there that are pretty intense.

But it's definitely an interesting take on the genre, and it's been really interesting. Here they all received as well. Yeah. What got you into cinema? Like, were you always kind of in the sci-fi action thing? Or did it? Were you like, oh, no, actually Citizen Kane was my favorite movie. I just like watching the boys.

Well, definitely got into kind of the visuals. Very young. I know photography was kind of a big thing, especially with my dad. and going on trips and stuff and I always was so interested by the camera I wanted to take pictures and I remember he had one of the old Sony cancorders that took the massive tapes

so I remember having playing with that as a kid but it wasn't until I think high school where I was kind of like oh I can actually do this as a career and it was like really fun to communications technology class and then yeah from there

I kind of took an internship through high school with one of the local TV stations, Rogers Television, and ended up working on the mobile truck. So we would go to hockey games, elections, all this kind of stuff. But that was my first kind of roll up on a location, set up everything, whether it's, you know, cameras, sound, power distribution. So it really gave me a taste of, you know, having to set up everything, pack it up, and, you know, go home, different location every day kind of deal. Yeah, and then went into, decided to pursue that afterwards, go to college, Sheridan College in Oakville, Canada. And then, yeah, really focused on cinematography there.

And that's when I started to watch the Citizen Canes and whatnot. kind of learned the fundamentals of filmmaking and some of the more traditional approaches or whatnot and then also met a bunch of great filmmakers we know as I say a bunch of like-minded individuals but thankfully with our year I still know a ton of people that are still work in the industry really excelling actually in that career it's in the industry and yeah it's It's been great. Still keep up to keep up with a lot of those people to this day and bump into people all of the world that have, you know, kind of gone through that same, same path

and trajectory. And then, yeah, after that, it was freelance, started to freelance camera and trauma. Yeah. So are you on to Leafs games then with the Rogers truck? that was more local I'm from Kitchener Kitchen Ontario so we do the OHL which is Ontario Hockey League yeah farm league under

under them so the next step up but yeah it's almost the same kind of thing of going to the OHL to the NHL you know like that kind of kind of massive jump into cinema now I was like oh okay it's just a big leagues

so you know you just triggered a memory that I haven't I probably haven't thought of in decades which was I grew up in San Jose and so a buddy of mine was the home and goalie or like the home end behind the goalie camera operator and he let me go up there and fuck with it when I was like I must have been like 10 no no way younger I was probably like six like during a game he was like letting me operate yeah yeah yeah God I hadn't thought about that in a while. But, you know, at the time, I don't think the sharks were as good as they were. And now the sharks are obviously dog shit again. Good for us.

Go through cycle. Yeah. So call, so, uh, you, so, uh, you, so you went to film school, you said, or, or was that a, uh, separate thing that you were doing during college? It was from school. Oh, yeah. Um, yeah. Uh, so did a pre-resigate, one-year program called Media Fundamentals and a three-year program called Media Arts after that. Yeah. What were some of those lessons early on that kind of shaped the way you think about filmmaking? Because I know a lot of people, they get into film school and they're like, oh, I want to be a director. And then you get there.

You're like, oh, everyone wants to be a director. And there's way more jobs than this. You know? I definitely remember that's kind of like the first one of the first classes that the teacher. She was like, okay, it wants to be, everyone puts their hand up. But, yeah, being there in that program, starting off, we had the opportunity to work on the thesis films of the graduating classes. Oh, interesting. Yeah.

So one of the benefits to that is like, oh, you get the PA. Well, what's PA? I don't know. Well, we'll figure that out. You know, so you kind of worry about it. It was really, really brilliant. And it was on your own, your own, you know, admission. like they're not going to tell you here's a placement you know go and do it um so uh yeah again how

they say you get what you put into it this is definitely one of those things uh so yeah i just started peeing on these on these projects and really getting to see all the roles and action and uh that kind of started to formulate you know what a traditional set was and you know like them stuff uh with filmmaking so then now when you go into class it's like okay i have a practical um practical practical knowledge of stuff already and then you know you're getting a theory as well so kind of combining those two

and then as you progress throughout the years you do your own piece of projects and your own your own thing but yeah I definitely know that was one of the fundamentals of one of the benefits you know you learn what you learn in class but I really you know took a lot from those early said visits

and again made relationships connections to a lot of people that are still working uh to the day have hired me who worked on on sets um yeah yeah the every time the film school question comes up i'm always like well you can learn all the film stuff like online at this point but it's so important to like get involved with people and like you said get on set um you know even even today i tell people like if you get offered like borderline free job or something like that. But the people are good, like whoever hired you is like smart, you know,

and you can kind of tell, oh, this is just good, it's just there's no budget. Usually there's a bunch of other people who are really talented on that set who you will either learn from or get a job from who are also working below their rate, you know, and then suddenly you're on some bigger commercial or something like that. Those gigs are always helpful in my opinion. Yeah, and you really also have to, you know, give your best effort and you still put your best attitude forward. You can't be going like, oh, I'm not being paid. I got, you know, half

fastest. Yeah. You know, because it really is true that those connections that you make on those jobs set you off for other stuff. So that kind of sets up for the next thing. It's like during, during colleges, you're doing a lot of those kind of free gig, music videos, or whatnot.

So one of my first forays into camera was, actually like, one of my first focus pulling jobs, really was kind of that freebie. Kaylee Wilson actually really seasoned grip in the industry I was directing this piece

obviously has a bunch of amazing friends and connections in the industry already and then I was brought on by the DP who was shooting in Justin VIII to help him out as an AC and then I reconnected with a bunch of other DPs there Marty Boytunek being one of them And yeah, I remember one of the first shots was, uh, it was like, oh, it's a quick pickup shot.

And the, uh, the movie, I think just came out. Yeah. The movie. So Justin was, um, yeah, he had the 115, I think was the big, the big one. The bigger one, you was. Yeah, we started to run out of commercials and stuff. It was kind of my first actually intro into, like, cam assisting and actually doing in on commercials and some freelance stuff. Um, so yeah, I remember we were doing a movie shot and it was kind of a big chalking shot.

We followed an actress out of the room, out of the doorway and pulled back and then she got into a car and swing around. Um, and I realized I didn't have a monitor like, DP had his monitor to operate, but I didn't have a monitor for folks. So I was like, oh, no, I have to do this. Old school. Yeah, yeah. Set my marks and things. Okay, here we go. got, did it. What? And then, yeah, Marty is also super impressed. And, yeah, from there, it was like, okay, we're busy now. So that will just set off really a ton of work as a camera assistant, really just based on those recommendations. And going from, you know, a word of mouth,

obviously that DP knows a bunch of other DPs. And so keeping that network, you know, tight and small and also just making sure you have a good need to go to spend around. I think it's super important. And then, yeah, it kind of started leading me into more A-Cing jobs. And that's how I, before I got into cinematography, I was probably doing that for about four years. I was out of college. I wasn't able to go directly in out of school. I feel like most people don't.

You know, it's a tough situation, right, to be able to do. And if you have that opportunity, by all means, go for it. It's really probably one of the better options. Just ride the momentum right out of school. But, yeah, I was still definitely working in the industry, still keeping all these connects. But, yeah, I was working way up as a camera assistant freelance mostly. I didn't end up joining the union or taking the AC union route. but I was able to work on

any new features, commercials, short films in the works Yeah So then after a four years of that Four or five years Did a bunch of stuff all over Did a bunch of travel jobs as well As a camera assistant

And that was great You know really builds Character you're really able to Have a front row access to all these different DPs of how they do their approaches, how they light, how they communicate with their team, with their crew,

with clients. And then, yeah, decided probably, it was 2019, or end of 2019 to go full-time. Which is DPA. Yeah, let's go off the next. Right on.

You know, I don't think I've ever got, most of the time people go from like gaffing into like i don't know i must have asked this but i'm going to ask you what uh what qualities do you think make a good AC and also like what uh you know what does what did your AC kit look like when you were you know what were the the uh indispensable tools because i know for me it's like laser measure now like that thing is the best yeah yeah it's really uh really awesome and again just have crazy robo cups and robo cups yes Robo grip, what's a robo grip?

It's, uh, so you know how everyone wants, they're like, you have to have a multi-tool. It's like, you never use anything in the multi-tool. You use the pliers and they're kind of shit and the knife, right? So I just carry a knife and then I, the robo grips are like a, um, they're like pliers, but they lock. So you, you get like a really sure grip on everything. And it's like the two of those things are about the size of a multi-tool anyway, but there you go. Okay, look into that, the robo comp. That's also part of the key ones.

But yeah, multi-tool Leatherman, specifically, if you guys want to sponsor, you know, it's all cool. But yeah, I've been using that one. I've been using that for years. And I think that's always a go-to, even as an operator, your DP, whatever, just keep that on the belts. And it'll save me a bunch of situations. Obviously, your typical cleaning lens, cleaning solutions, you always need. Measuring device, yeah, you have your leisure measure now. I've seen some of the ACs that like to throw tape on the ground

throughout a 10 foot 10 foot line just to be like okay that's my distance I know where it's going to be and then they can kind of you know play with in there yeah I'm just having a proper a proper duty proper ditty bag I'm not too sure if this has come up before but I love camping me outdoors so I find like a lot of that kind of

all the bags and kits and weather protection and hiking materials, all that stuff. There's a lot of things that can be transitioned over into filmmaking. One of them, I know, being like a weather cover, usually for bags or whatever, have been great to throw tarpoo over things, or especially now for travel gigs, just packing things, you know, keeping organized and labeled. I think that's one of the biggest things is, organization, just knowing where things are, knowing where to pull things out quickly, and then catering those taste and needs not only to the production show,

but your DP, camera operators. Because, yeah, once you get to know your team, it's just, it's amazing. Some of my favorite things about filmmaking, it's like when everyone's kind of clicking and it's just barely need to speak, everything just kind of locks in the place. Yeah, you know, there's this weird, I 100% agree with you. there's this weird thing I'm noticing on online where like I just kind of want your opinion on it now that I'm thinking of it but like there seems to be this urge from like the younger generation of people who want to become filmmakers where they're they're always

like you'll see YouTube videos like how to be a solo filmmaker you know in 2024 they always got to put a year on it for some reason you know how to but like there seems to be this push towards doing everything yourself and and everyone go it's so hard to find a team or you know that I live in an area where no one wants to help or anything like that and I'm like that's but that's kind of the whole I got into it to be part of that like roving band of misfits who like makes a thing you know I didn't get in this to be by myself that feels awful yeah and I find there's um well so some of the commercial stuff I do honestly I'm the lower and smaller scale it's like a lot of the one man band uh kind of situations where you do kind of have to you know do everything yourself um and yeah it's again such a treat to be able to to have a big team they can delegate delegate your tasks too and uh really work at a pace that you need to and yeah getting to find everyone's strengths and weaknesses and apply that to to whatever you're making um so and also you learn you learn so much from from other departments from other

actually, you know, it's what I think to love about travel as well is you get to see international crews how they work, you know, what their processes is,

you know, stuff like that. Yeah, I mean, the, with the sister Nancy doc, you guys were everywhere. Like that,

that, how many cities were you in? How long was that shoot also? Yeah. So to get into that, pretty much from the top first off director Alison Duke

I met her and her company oh yeah media probably 2018 I guess 2017 maybe even so that's where Nancy's husband

got the hat I was like there's no fucking way the funny thing is she gave that to him was a gift. And he wouldn't take it off. It's like, no, it's like, oh, yeah, come on, she's it, guys.

So it's like, well, it wasn't even like a planned placement or anything. It's like, all we asked and said, no, it's fine, leave it. Oh, yeah. So, yeah, but, you know, it's a plug van. I worked on a project. Allison was a documentary director

for 20 years prior to this, as well as direct music videos and a bunch of other things. But this was the first narrative project. that she was doing a thesis project for York University in Toronto. The Bam Bam was? Not Bam, I'm sorry,

this is a short film. Sorry, I'm kind of all leading up to it. I was like, holy shit. No, no, but yeah,

a long story long, essentially. Yeah. But yeah, so works on the short film. Very, very powerful story. Essentially a mother gets

too sick to take care of her daughter, child services comes and takes her daughter. She ends up passing away from heartbreak, essentially, shortly after. So, yeah, it was obviously very heavy subject. Got to work very closely with Olinique, which is a fantastic actress in Toronto. And Canada, and it's also very proud of making as well. But, yeah, getting to work with such a good job. great team there, really connected with Allison on a personal level as well as the technical level. You all really enjoyed working together. And throughout that, we're also working with

an emerging filmmaker program that is a part of OIA and that Allison's kind of put together as well as Gaddi, Conte George, is another producer, the two founders. But yeah, so we created the short film with emerging filmmakers it went really well this film is how they used

as a teaching tool and everything so yeah again talking about the projects really low low budget thing just responded

off of a random ad online and then since that it's blocks into a whole stack for the projects one of them being bam bam

so a few years later I think this is January 2020 I get an email saying Hey sister NOTC But the other projects essentially landed on her desk And

She got the project from Sister Nancy's Canadian DJ Who works to Montreal, DJ Moss Man Moss Man Moss Man found Oh yeah, I found Allison, love their work Like yeah I have an artist

You know that we'd love to do a piece on And it'd be great few I'm proud of peace and it's about dance hall she's like yeah who is it oh sister nancy it was like what do you mean

sister so Allison obviously very very passionate about the subject she's always saying that she's old enough to remember when the song dropped she was at the parties you know they were live so it's really kind of a dream come true

for her in a full circle moment to be part of the project in the first place and then when I heard it it was very much the same to be like obviously, you know, heard of the original song and all the remixes, notably Jay-Z's 4-4 album and his band track came out, I think, a year or two prior. Yeah, so we're like, hey, we've got a world tour set up.

We're going to Europe, going to be in Africa, Australia, I think Tokyo's on tour, we're going to Brazil. Great. First show is going to be South by Southwest. in Austin, Texas, and COVID. Tough while I was on the first big festivals to get to get canceled from that. So we just said to pivot and switch and, you know, don't to get in COVID too much. Obviously, we all know how that was.

I was there. You were there. I was there. I was there. I've seen it. So, yeah, it was. That was really tough, obviously, for multitude of. reasons but yeah we pushed through so we just use that time to to prep um Allison wrote

like a script you know as best you can in a documentary to kind of like rechange you know where we can be able to perform first like how you're doing a doc well music and performances and getting close to people um so yeah those those really tough to navigate um but eventually we're able to go uh to the states and see you see our in home in Patterson, New Jersey for the first time. Yeah, I just really get to know her. And it's such a great experience. So down to earth.

There's that part in the dock where her daughter is talking about how she's sugar and pepper. You know, she can come out with this really well-conyre scary attitude. Sometimes people are very put-off by or can be quite intimidating. but once you get past that the sweetest, you know, most understanding connecting, you know, human being. And

yeah, it was so great to be able to work so closely with her and you know, really have her trust us to be there and the inner space. And yeah, also tell her story that she has only do very many interviews.

She doesn't do much press. And as you saw in the film, just like such a story to go on about um yeah yeah the uh that was it's interesting because she seems like such a nice lady and then she gets there's like a part where she's cooking and she's like oh you know if i'm not yelling at someone something's wrong and i was like i haven't seen you yelling at anyone they seem nice i don't know what this is all about yeah that was uh that scene actually was interesting from that was a very first

kind of sheet that we did we weren't able to travel at that time um but

um we we had another team another dog team go down we was already in New York

um Henry a Debe Nogo he's also the DP of IM9 Negro with Raoul Peck

um so again a fantastic documentary um so that the hot talks like the year prior um so yeah to have him be a part of the project and go down i was like wow it's also such an opportunity to really learn from him and you know and one of the things he was saying is like yeah she's like really intense it's kind of you know uh spicy

to say the least so you know even even having such a season that the project is also having to to kind of massage away into it and, you know, get comfortable and everything. But that's your yelling at the end of his clips. So definitely caught her on a spicy day, which is funny. But, yeah, yeah, it's such a great experience, really. So what did prep look like for you? Because, I mean, like you said, it's a long shoot. You're going everywhere.

Like, I imagine you had to keep the shooting package small, you know, audio, obviously, for documentaries. Why did I say it like that? Documentaries is a consideration, media management. Like, walk me through kind of how you tackled some of those larger potential pain points. Yeah, so a lot of the, we really kind of had to break it up with how intense of the days we're going to be. Again, it being a lower budget, we were able to rent, you know, full packages every day or have multiple crew. So, yeah, I'm a smaller. days, it was just Allison, me, sound, sometimes an AC, or a swing, fixer, producer, driver. And, yeah, trying to keep the kit super light in backpacks, maybe one roller, two rollers.

Because we're also, we're packing our day super tight. We don't have the luxury of so much time. So, yeah, it's really stick and move. You got to go in a location set up. Maybe it's an interview. Pack up on to the next one. And then some of those days can go long because, let's say, he's playing a show, for example.

So you kind of have the time while we can't have this day be 20 hours long as much as we want it to be. Sure. You know, to catch, you know, the start of the first half of the day, it's second half. One of the shoots in Montreal, that was the case. I unfortunately had COVID for that for that shoot. So again,

we had to delegate, um, delegated crew and a Montreal, uh, to shoot for us. But, um, again,

it's, uh, it's really small, compact and, um, so what, what was your shooting pack? Like what the cameras,

lenders were you implemented? Yeah. So for, for the most part, we, used the Sony FX-9, the FX-3 as an A&B camera. And then, yeah, mostly for any of these and whatnot. And then in Jamaica, in some parts in New York,

we are able to shoot recreations on the Atton XTR 16-0. Okay, because I was going to ask about that, but it's already continued. Yeah, yeah. So it's a sad work for that. But, yeah, I showed on that. and then later on the FX6 became available because I don't know if you remember that like yeah it's almost a two year period

you just couldn't find it anywhere but yeah so we used mostly mostly the Sony cameras plus that film film package and the lensing we use mostly the Gmaster zooms 16 to 35

24 to 70 mostly for the doc you capture stuff I'd say whenever I'm falling around sister Nazi most of the time I'm just on that Zoom to be able to have the flexibility because we don't know where we're going all the time you know

or what's going to happen so yeah that just gave me such a flexibility with that with that candle package yeah and the combination as well I would

you know switch out usually our assistant or you know if you had a second operator something would be shooting usually FX 3 in the gimbal for example and then I'd be in the FX 9 a bit more of a bigger lens

whatever and then we'd switch yeah I'd take the gimbal perhaps on stage and yeah a couple of cringy gimbal moments in the piece that I definitely wouldn't do now, you know, again, looking back of the project taking so long, you kind of see yourself evolved as well. Yeah. Yeah. So you're like, I wouldn't do that now. Or I'd probably, you know,

but, uh, you know, alas. But, uh, yeah. So that, that camera package allowed us to, to keep fairly light and nimble, um, as well as kind of mix and match one we need to. Yeah. So all the recreations were shot on film or was it a mix it was a mix um some of them were some of them weren't um you can kind of tell if we left kind of the exterior and gate is uh see that's the thing is i can't at this point there are so many like assets that you can download that like look like that and effects and i was just like all right it's one of them i can't but you know i can't i can't tell anymore well you can when it's bad but it was good enough that it's like Like, this is either film or a great recreation.

Yeah, so all this stuff in the, in Jamaica, we shot most of the exterior with the kids. I think anything we had with, yeah, it's kind of a mix and match. Yeah. But for the most part, we did shoot 16 for most of the recreations. Some of them we had to shoot on the FX9, which then I used. the 2K crop mode. Yeah. And you put the Super 16 lenses

on the Epic style of the PL mount. So it's using like a 9.5-0 for example on the camera. So that kind of helped with a little bit of the look. Again, I would love to shoot all of it on

16, but we didn't have the option for that. But yeah, in the grades, we were kind of able to amalgamate all of our pieces Mike Dubowski over at Picture Shop in Toronto the fantastic job

who had every I think every medium in the last 20 years in the film film to tape to digital to digital to tape digital and all the losses losses in between

but yeah I think I think we did a decent job with being able to mix everything. I found that the 16 that we did shoot we actually ended up having to add a bit more grain, out a bit more texture to it to kind of have it match

either the archival or some of the other kind of fabricated film work. You know, that's not surprising at all because I was talking to Eigle-Burled about shooting the holdovers and he was saying how, have you seen that? haven't you know oh dude the some of the best film emulation i've ever seen in any project but he was saying

that you know the movie basically is supposed to look like it was from the 70s and kind of just discovered and then projected and they they tested film they were going to shoot 16 but 52 19 is supposed to be scanned and so they were like we're going to have to add grain and funk to this anyway so let's just shoot digital and do it all later like why give ourselves the headache of shooting film if it's not even going to look like it you know look like how we perceive film to or i suppose remember film to be yeah which is interesting now knowing the process i would have probably you know pushed push to film much harder and you know try to get a lot of that that grain out naturally whether it's you know pushing the stock or or whatever but um yeah i was

I was really surprised. And we did the scan over at film The Street, Justin Noble Shop, and also in Toronto. And yeah, he did too good of a job. It was just a team. And next time I would have gone back and say, just rub it around on the floor and then throw it back in. But there's actually a relatively famous story.

I think it was Fight Club where they legitimately were stepping on the negative in the, in the, before they scanned it. They were like, this needs to look terrible. Like, fuck this thing up. Yeah. I know you said you had shot stills, obviously, but had you shot motion picture film before? Yeah, I have.

Not obviously in a project of the scale or this much, kind of at once. I've shot kind of Super 8 since we were 16 out of a bowl X. And then my first 16 project was back at Sheridan during college. And that was also a great, again, a great chance to be able to shoot the medium and kind of play with it a bit more. But yeah, going on this one, really learning would have just been like to take more risks, you know, to push it a bit more, be a little more aggressive with, you know, choices and whatnot. But, you know, kind of you're always trying to play it safe as well and not too safe. You don't want to get fired. You don't want to get fired.

are you on you know um so yeah to uh again more time more testing more stock you can really fine tune what you really trying to achieve but um this was really much yeah just getting you can make sure it looks good and then you can kind of play with it afterwards if you yeah because that was going to be actually my follow-up question is like for a documentary not a lot of pre-production you can do beyond just being ready but for all of the um recap stuff like was that similarly like on the fly or were you able to kind of like slow down and actually figure that out it was very much slowed down and figured out and it was very nice pace change yeah it's slate this and take you know whereas when it's like a you're recording a show

or performance it's just just go you know might have a set list so you might know the general facts and things, but a lot of the time it's just, you know, you're all over the place trying to catch you what's happening. So, yeah, we were able to really plan and shot list it, slow things down, you know, choose what stock I wanted to use. I made sure we had,

again, it came around lights and equipment every day, but for the film stuff, was it to kind of, you know, get a few more, a few more things that we needed. So, yeah, it was a great kind of, collaboration with the team as well

and everyone enjoyed it and yeah the recreations it was a fact of like we couldn't really find anything or there's not really too much high quality archival from that time right and you saw what we had in the piece and that was kind of all like up-resed

or you know we tried to find original assets so yeah a lot of these things have either been lost or the quality is no longer there so that was really a push to be like let's let's really go in and kind of bring it back to life yeah excuse me

and yeah we did such a fantastic job from the costumes to the casting to locations we were able to find so yeah it was a great

a good kind of interchanging between any piece yeah There's one interview set up in specific that I wanted to ask you about because it just looks great. But the Janelle Monet interview is like one of the more dialed like I imagine it was a simple setup, but it just looks so nice. And I was wondering what I can kind of see in like her eyes, I think, or something. Was it just like a T bar with a big piece of diffusion? You just blasted her with that or like what was that lighting setup?

Yeah, so again, unfortunately, I wasn't able to shoot that wasn't you? Oh, that wasn't you? Ah, fuck. No, no. And it's true because it's like, yeah, we had, you had the rentals, able to go to her house, have the space. Yeah, it was kind of a one-off, one-off day. And again, more controlled than a few of the other shoots. I think that was up there only stop.

You did all or not. But yeah, fantastic. Yeah, looks great. and I really appreciate it. No, actually, it sucks because, no, I didn't like it. I don't know why I brought that up. No, no, it's true, but no, I do appreciate. And again, that's kind of the tough thing.

It's like, especially on the road is knowing kind of what you need to have, the emulate the look that you'd want. But, you know, when you're on the go and I think a lot of the setups I had, like a 300D aperture in like 2,120s, yeah and some other smaller lights so um it was really tough to get a in a decent source out of uh out of some of the interviews but um yeah yeah when you uh were you like a dance hall fan before you or was this like an education or like well rephrase that were you excited because to do the gig because you knew the subject matter already or

or were you excited to kind of learn about it? It's really both. I definitely knew about the culture and the music. My dad's from Dominica in the West Indies. And yeah, being here in Toronto, it's such a multicultural city and, you know, very, very strong Jamaican influence. I think we're the second most Jamaicans in the world. That's from Sheneka here in Toronto.

My old math teacher was Jamaican Canadian, and I was like, when I was a kid, I thought that was weird. I was like, really? And then come to find out, yeah, there's a million, a bazillion of them. Yeah, and it's always fun to be like, you know, see something like, oh, I got a cousin in Mississauga or Lajax or Scarrow or, oh, do you know this person? So, and again, it's such a small world, even finding out that some of my relatives knew some of the musicians in the piece. and, you know, it's probably mostly connected with the movement here in the late 70s or the 80s and stuff.

So, yeah, super small world. But, yeah, so love the music, love the culture. And to be able to now, like, really go in for work and to craft and tell stories they need to be told, there was such a fantastic opportunity. And, yeah, just try. try to put my own sensibilities, whether it's with music or art, I try to, you know, put it into the piece. Yeah, I think it occurs to me, because me and my girlfriend have this running joke that, like, if it wasn't in Tony Hawk's Pro Skater, did it matter?

And in terms of music, and I think it's actually Skate 3, the game that Bam Bam is in. And it's like, it's just nonstop. There's only like five songs in that thing. So I just remember hearing it nonstop in that game. And it's, it's such a, that is such a small example of how pervasive that track is. It's in everything. It's probably, I mean, they say it in the documentary a bunch like, oh, it's one of the more sampled songs of all time. But I think it might be like, it's crazy.

I think that song is now beyond just being a song. It's like, it's part of the DNA of like audio just hurt. It's such a crazy thing. Like, I can't think of another song that is that. Yeah, again, pervasive. It's everywhere. Me, yeah. And it's always interesting to hear everyone's connection to Van Bat.

You know, it's always from something like, you know, whether it's hearing it for the first time or whether it's in a video game, whether you heard in the commercial, whether it's in your favorite movie or a TV show, whether you've heard it at your neighbor's house because they just hear them being a. well yeah you know um yeah so uh and that that horn i can't remember who said it uh because i'm terrible with names but uh when he was like i made my dad play because that horn that opening horn horn is like it's iconic you know as well just every element of that yeah p rock i think um yeah and it's it really has like such nostalgia such uh such a link to a lot of people so yeah being able to work on the project is yeah really giant control yeah what did a post look like for you guys because I imagine I know it's not really your department but um I imagine you guys must have shot hundreds and hundreds of hours of footage yeah yeah I really did uh Eugene Weiss editor who did an

incredible job yeah um I really think the pacing of the film just just goes this goes goes goes This was no, like, you know, a lot of time it's a documentary, you can be overfed, or you could be, you know, you can lose interest or the pacing. This is incorrect. Yeah. Yeah, I thought he did a fantastic job. That being said, I think he said we had over 200 hours. Before, yeah. With all the interviews, the concerts, the B-roll, all the, you know, all the travel.

Unfortunately, there's so many amazing characters and stories that we couldn't even get into the people. I mean, it's almost a two-hour documentary, like, it's, you know, which I'm like, Alison, like, are you sure we can't? And she's like, we're going to stop two hours already. Yeah, this does not be the end of this. It doesn't need to be longer, you know. But it really feels like, you know, there's more there. So, yeah, post being said, I think one of the hardest things that the team had was licensing.

thing. There's the music, the photos, trying to get all the rights and the legal situation kind of locked up. Almost took a year, I think, of going down and hunting publications that might not exist or people who have passed or who owns this, who owns that. Yeah, so once that that was kind of finished, then, yeah, we were able to finish at a picture shop. Um, and yeah, the color grade went really well. Again, we had assets from, from all over the place. Um, yeah, one of the things, especially with some of the assets that weren't looking too clear or clean. Um, we tried to fix them to be like, okay, sharpen the side, maybe the color and, you know, a lot of the time it just didn't work.

So we're like, you know, let's go the other way with it. Let's mess it up even more. You know, let's try to like, to make it feel like the effect that being, you know, broken. So I think that like really clicked at a point to like, okay, now it feels appropriate, I'd say, for what it is. Yeah. Might not obviously be the best quality visually, but I think it kind of hopefully works out in the end. Yeah. And were you able to kind of sit in on the color side?

sessions or did you just kind of go, hey, make it look nice, we're good? No, yeah, I was able to see on the color sessions. And as well as Allison was so great and I've kind of been involved with the project for so long. They kind of, you know, kept me up to date not only with the color, but some of the sounds. I went to one of the mixing sessions and went to one of the finishing sessions as well, which is kind of, you know, extra. Again, it was on my own, my own terms for most of it. but yeah I just really wanted to see the project to be the end really give it our best

so that was really beneficial honestly to to be able to go through all those different sessions and you know I was expecting like one quick color session but we actually got a few can really work on things one of them was just like a grain grain and noise and texture pass to really kind of match you know everything or res up or as downs in the archival. Did you have like a look kind of in mind when you were sitting in on those color sessions or was it more just kind of like balancing and matching? Yeah, mostly kind of balancing and matching.

I tried to kind of separate, I'd say, different eras. It's a little bit of a different look. So again, like the archival kind of 70s has that 60s. team, you know, kind of texture where present day has a more of a modern look. I don't think I put too much. I think I want to put some like 35 grain on some of the digital docu footage, give it a bit more of an edge. But, yeah, look wise, yeah, to separate kind of the archival.

and our documentary beats it's kind of like Sister Nancy Alex. Yeah. And did you I can't remember because I a handful of these interviews have kind of jumbled together but was this was this one of the Tribeca ones or were you at a festival recently? It was yeah Tribeca. It was Tribeca, okay. Yeah, had the world, world premiere Tribeca which was

fantastic and the whole family got to come down and see it and it was a part of their showcase plus series so she actually

performed after the first yeah so that was it was kind of was really magic because he saw at the end of the doc

it kind of she's about to walk out and then but she did she did which is weird because I always

kind of imagined it being that way you know from the very started we were rolling just like you know it would be so

good to have to hear the story to you know and then you're kind of continuing live you're seeing the dock line because this is these are the next steps for her as well um 40th anniversary the album's coming out this is obviously going to generate a bunch of hype momentum for her and um so yeah it's always kind of it's continuing so yeah that was such a great wrap up and then to hear her voice again Like on that set up, yeah, it's magic. It's really something else. And how was the reception in the audience?

Obviously, most festivals are pretty loving, but I imagine people were pretty stoked on it. It was great. Honestly, it was, again, I think one of the best things of the filmmaker is to hear reactions while people watching the film. The emotions were all over. You know, there's happy moments, sad moment. It's near the end when she's like, you know, people find out she doesn't get her royalties for the first time. You know, people cheering, literally cheering, clapping for her when she's like, oh, she got it right now. Yeah, yeah.

And yeah, and just having, you know, kind of really positive attitude. I feel like everyone just felt great after watching, you know, it's very kind of empowering and enlightening. yeah you guys did do a great job of alluding to the rights issue up front but not like putting to it you know because i think it's someone mentions it briefly or something along that and you see her walk out of her house in new jersey and you're like wait a minute like that's just a yeah house like that's not this this person should be a billionaire you know yeah yeah yeah again her being like so down to earth it's it's kind of hard to understand. You know, once you, once you see it, it's like, okay, yeah, this is, you know, happy and content and, like, you understand why we know throughout the, all throughout the story, um, you know, while she's still there and why she's, you know, lives the way she does. And yeah, yeah, it's inspiring. Something, something really inspiring about that. And, um, yeah, getting to see her at her most, like, chilled out, relaxed, like, you're going to chill here,

I got my two TVs on Got my bonnet on I'm just gonna relax It's in my relaxing day Yeah yeah And yeah It's always funny Because it's like you never want to push

When she says she's done She's done Right No more oh five one minutes No let's just get you another shot Yeah Yeah yeah Again when you're doing the document

You're learning the subject And learning how You know You know You know that was one of the things That you know that's like when she's when she's done she's done when she goes she'll go when she's done she's done yeah yeah it's so fun were there any uh reactions in the uh screening that

surprised you because i know a lot of times it for a lot of people it's like people laugh at something that you didn't think was funny like that always seems to catch people off guard and you're like oh i didn't realize that was a comedy yeah i think there was a bunch of moments in there um that was the doc is quite funny you know so i think yeah once you see it so many times it's like oh yeah that is uh it's quite hilarious i think my my favorite part um the funniest part is at the very end credits when she's seeing the robot it goes to the door oh man that gets me every time yeah we're at the start when she's spraying the perfume she's like yeah just Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, the theater kind of went off at that part. You can hear me laughing behind the camera. I know. I was surprised you guys left that in. I was like, okay, yeah, hell yeah. This bra. And you know what? I think that really leads to it because there's so many moments where it's just like,

it's about the story. You know, it's, there might be a light, you know, a light in frame or the thing's not perfect. I think that one shot that, um, that, when she's in her room and her phone goes off she has Bam Bam as her ring to I know that happened

That was like day one I think Is this? Is this real? I thought it was edited before like she picks it up I thought you just started playing the song Over the clip I just remember being like no one's gonna believe this is real So I think I was I was looking over Allison's

Yeah So And yeah a lot of times, even in London, I know he had such a tight schedule again, going internationally. It was disappointing, especially with COVID, and having to deal. It was really tough, sort of schedule, super back. But, yeah, that point we were chasing the master tape at Westbury Music. That's all alive.

Like, we didn't know, oh, the tapes upstairs, you know, all the reactions we have of everyone are very original and then on. Um, so at first I was kind of, you know, I've said, I need to get a light in here. I need to, you know, and fix when I was just like, you know, this is, I want to shoot them on a white wall because that's where they are. And this is about the story, you know. So I find a lot of those moments, thankfully the story carries, carries it through and tougher visual points. Yeah, I know I could have fixed that. Yeah, I know I could interrupt the interview and stopped on it. But, um, yeah, really capturing.

it for the first time first take super one yeah as a DP kind of like balance obviously needs to to make the cut but story is number one oh yeah i mean like that's always the advice that everyone gives right what's the best how can i become a great DP it's like serve the story and also dance hall is is in itself like a very uh magyvered together genre you know so so things being a little rough around the edges visually matches the tone of of the subject matter you know it's not if it was too polished it would almost feel like a like a 60 minutes thing or you know like it would feel kind of sterile in my opinion and that's it and it's like we're also making an active choice to not commercialize things or sterilize or you know um and again that's that's also her philosophy original

one take you know don't cut don't dilute it's like this is it um so yeah we kind of did bring out to to the visual aspect as well um to be like obviously you want this to look good certain points we did push to be like okay we have the time space to you know set up a proper interview if possible um and yeah let the the kind of live moments just just go like one of those being a studio recording session sold some decay all of the lighting in there originally was

terrible I think it was like some fluorescent tubes or something falling apart stuff that really sets the tone for creativity so yeah just going in there and like having a panic what am I going to do I don't have much

don't have much time was that your lamp in the in the booth what lamp but I don't know what you're talking about. I was all that I have in the booth. Yeah. Yeah, I think I had like a 120 into the ceiling and a 300 and the ceiling.

Maybe some sort of, because you're seeing pretty much 360 as well, right? So it's like, you know, I can only put my lights in very few places and then I try not to see the best I can. But if you do, you do. It's like, you know, again, story is the most important. Again, watching it, you're distracted by what's going on and hopefully not noticing all the tiny imperfections. But, yeah, I think we're able to do works. And, yeah, I mean, I was taking them before a picture because it was something. I mean, the only reason I even noticed is because, you know, I'm watching it.

I mean, you're right. You kind of fall into it because even though I was watching it to ask questions about cinematography, about halfway through I just I realized I wasn't like taking notes or anything I was like oh fuck um all right just remember it just remember it um but it's a great watchman and a great story and I think I think you guys did an incredible job capturing her so um congrats brilliant thank you and um yeah just to say on that like I really think sister nancy uh ball was was very happy with with the peace you know she laughed she cried um laughed again but yeah i think she's really overjoyed with what we did and that was my number

one goal really with this is uh you know to serve to to to serve her story and to make sure she gets her flowers and feels respected and heard and um yeah yeah yeah really really big for you that oh yeah man well uh we've actually timed the end of this perfectly because i guess they're back from their lunch break and they've just started doing the fucking sanding again I could, dude, I got to send you a video of how, like, it is ear pierce. It's like bouncing off the building next year and just coming. Oh, it's brutal. But like I said, man, it's a great doc.

And you deserve all the attention you can get for it. Everyone does not just you. Of course, yes. But no, very much thanks, Kenny. And I appreciate that. Frame and Reference is an Albot production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. If you'd like to support the podcast or

and you can do so on Patreon by going to frame and repod.com, where you can get all the episodes and clicking the Patreon button. It's always appreciated, and as always, thanks for listening.