Frame & Reference Podcast - 154: "Quiet on Set" DP Victor Tadashi Suarez

Episode Date: August 8, 2024

This week I've got the wonderful Victor Tadashi Suarez on the program to talk about this work on the explosive documentary "Quiet on Set". Enjoy! Visit https://www.frameandrefpod.com for everything F&R https://www.patreon.com/frameandrefpod Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coast's leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠⁠Filmtools.com⁠⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello, and welcome to this another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and you're listening to Episode 154 with Victor Tedashi-Swarez, DP of Quiet on Set. Enjoy. have you been watching anything cool do you stick to are you the type of person that like watches documentary because that's primarily what you watch or do you try to steer away from it because that's your job yeah no i'm definitely someone that uh does not watch documentary as much as i should i mean almost uh not at all it's hard watching things i mean it's hard like finding time to watch stuff and i'm like a very impatient watcher too like unless if something's really good

from the beginning i just like i just get so frustrated and then i you know i just turn i turn things i start things and turn them off all the time yeah the last thing i saw was dune too on on a plane i'm sure that's like oh a crime for yeah he's stoked about that i know um but that was good yeah it was still it was you know i missed yeah i shouldn't have seen on a plane but it was it was It was still good. I started watching Renfair that Lance Oppenheim

knew like it's like a limited series. He did some kind of heaven. Anyway, it's yeah, it's like a visual treat. But I also turned that off. But I plan on finishing that.

I can't get into series unless it's like a limited series. Like I know how long, you know, this is eight episode. Or if it's a show that I'm like invested in, yeah i i can't like it's a commitment well for instance like the office oh there's 600 episodes of that i'm like i'm not i'm not getting into that i'm not like a

background watcher i like need to focus on it so to say there's going to be 48 seasons of this i'm just like no can't yeah that's very overwhelming it's like hard when you like miss the big stuff too like i didn't i never saw sopranos like i know i should like i want to but just just just that commitment is like I don't have like hundreds of hours yeah I luckily I saw breaking bed as it was coming out most that was that was definitely the like experiential TV thing that I can remember being yeah and house I guess oh so good I was how big it was but I did love it house was huge and um yeah I remember I was really into 24 yeah watch that 24 was amazing maybe I did watch because now that they were saying it I'm like I actually have all the seasons of Mad Men on on Blu-ray so I bought like when they came out I miss that one that was a good one I like missed Game of Thrones I didn't that was also not for me I love fantasy shit just for whatever reason that one was and I've interviewed like four of those DPs and every time I'm like okay so I have to be honest oh man I have not watched this show wow luckily what's the last one

what's the last show that you watched um like in full or just in general in full um i guess legally it would be doctor who because i just finished the most recent episode last night and i have seen that entire things but um i have not seen that you're not a doctor who person just no yeah it maybe i am and i don't know you know you know i just i am and i don't know you know i just it's like real campy sci-fi you know yeah no i've heard like yeah i heard i heard great things about it feel like farscape which is even deeper pole i don't know why you would have seen far escape instead of no instead of doctor who um yeah but that's i i'm definitely more in the uh film so like i like to be able to just dedicate it's almost like

meditation you know you're like all right this is going to take two three hours whatever everything else gets to go away versus you know just any kind of those ongoing shows where it's like all right I have to love like the acolyte just came out that Star Star Wars show and I'm like the first three episodes are out and I'm like all right these are three entirely separate

like these three episodes don't match each other so I can't tell if I like this or not yet and do I want to continue to tune in just to be frustrated again yeah no yeah I have no patience for that if it's like the first 20 minutes if it's not gripping me then it's just like so frustrating yeah I mean maybe it's just me but like you know all these things cost so much money and like take up all these resources and it's like please just make it the first 30 minutes

like yeah and engaging and they're just like I'm wondering if that's going to change with how little is getting made right now like if if the proclivities of the studios are going to change where they're going to be like let's just only spend money on the things that we not even money but like time because I think a lot of the shows that are kind of like not gripping us are ones that feel like a little sped through or maybe a little made by committee yeah definitely so I'm wondering if we're going to go back to the like 70s 90s like just give the director some cash and I hope they don't fuck it up no way no way it'd be nice that would be really nice yeah no yeah I feel like American cinema these days I mean I don't

really know but in my opinion I feel like it's just yeah it's all that kind of directing by committee you know even the big stuff like I don't know I mean it's 824 an American film technically it's but like yeah like distribution you know right I don't know I've been watching a lot of European films and it's like that stuff is just so much more you know like they're dealing with like social issues that like we don't ever touch really and like a film that you see like in the theaters or whatever I don't know I'm waiting for like you know give me those like future fiction films about border politics or like reproductive rights like so much shit is happening right now and the best we've got is like this

sort of civil war film that's like actually kind of a fantasy and doesn't really touch you know light it's about it's about our you know current politics but is the world is so thin and it's like doesn't actually say anything about you know by the end I was like are we supposed to be rooting for or like a gas that like you know this president being like executed like like who's he supposed to be and what does he represent and it's like it was just i don't know yeah yeah because there's no i mean i i i think what's funny is i had enough people go see it and say the exact same things that i know all the plot points you're talking about because i think that's another thing too is like a we as an american society seem allergic to talking about problems we

we've inherited this british stiff upper lip thing where it's like now you just everything that sucks you got to deal with it and if you complain about it you're part of the problem but then also with Civil War everyone seemed to go in there thinking like ooh I'm gonna see how this group

makes the other or like these filmmakers make the group that I'm not a part of look like shit and then it was about journalists and then they went

well what the fuck I wanted some catharsis here and I was like I know I wanted catharsis it's true I don't know if that's a good way to go into a film either like I want to see

how this is gonna bag on the people I don't like it's like I would love to I would love to watch a film that, yeah, I would love to just watch a film that backs on the people. Well, sure, yeah. I know. That's the thing.

It's like the magic trick of that film was like you could be from any side of the political spectrum and go see it. And it's like, cool. It's like, you know, yeah. Yeah. I do wonder, especially nowadays, I wonder why we are so adverse to trying to fix things. Like, it is a group. You know, it's like we don't. even you know whenever

a film comes out not necessarily documentary obviously but like whenever a film comes out that deals with sociopolitical issues or whatever it's always like you hear why are they jamming this down our throats and like they didn't force you to fucking watch it

they just made the thing like it's no one's no one's jamming anything also phrasing like if you're if you're the type of person who's upset about that sort of thing maybe you say something else but yeah I don't know what built that in us.

I don't know, yeah. We're just, you know, it's a sketchy time. We're all so polarized, like, stuff that shouldn't be controversial. You know, like Disney or whatever. Yeah. Just suddenly, like, everything is part of the culture war and whatever, yeah. Yeah. You went to school for socioeconomics, right?

Economics philosophy. Economics philosophy. Okay. So what, why do you say it like that? Was that not a good thing? I don't know why I did. I don't know why I did that. What even is that?

Is that just like the study of? Good question. It's like. Why you make policies? No, it's like, you know, sort of like the philosophy. It's like, you know, you read a lot of like economist philosophers like Adam Smith or Marx or whatever. So it's like that whole theory. And then also a lot of math, like trying to understand system, you know, try to understand.

how the world works through math, more or less. But it was fucking hard. Like, there was a lot of math that I was not prepared for. Like, statistics suddenly became, like, very, very complicated very quickly. It's like, oh, man. What drew you to that? I don't know. It was just a backup plan.

Sorry, I got this. I got this. sketchy Mike just like resting on this table here. It was just a bad backup plan, you know, or whatever, not a bad backup plan. My backup plan was law school, you know. I, like, went to Columbia for undergrad, which made my parents very happy. And it was a way to, you know, keep doing film stuff while I was in college and give them the comfort, like, you know, it's not all a huge waste. Like, I could be a come a lawyer still.

Don't hold out hope. Or like, you know, don't give up. hope. But yeah, then I've, then I graduated and I've never, I wish I didn't do that. I wish I just, you know, taking classes that were interesting to me. And that definitely would not have been a single economics class. Gotcha. Would you have taken film courses or other, just other things that were interesting? I took one film course. You know, Columbia doesn't have like, their undergrad doesn't have like a real film like production, whatever program. But they have like film studies. So I did like a intro to film studies class, which at the time, you know, I wanted,

I was like so eager to like learn how to make films. Like I didn't care at all about like film, like the history of film. Right. In retrospect now, I would love to take that class. I had the exact same experience. It's like, fuck, I should have paid more attention in those history classes. I know. I know. So yeah, I took that class and it just like, turned me off from doing, you know, studying that kind of film at the time. But I wish I'd just done like more, you know, I took like an art history class that I loved. Like, I wish I just done whatever random shit that was actually interested me at the time. Yeah.

Oh, well. Yeah, not to take you down bad memory length. What films were you kind of like turned you on to filmmaking when you were younger? You know, I loved like, I thought like Eternal Sunshine was like the greatest film ever made. and like lost in translation I thought was so cool but before that you know like back to the future

just like amazing amazing film yeah that kind of stuff I like you know I watched like lost translation like a million times and same with Eternal Sunshine like those were real real pillars of like that made me so excited

yeah what films could be yeah I actually got to interview Ellen Curris two years ago, I think. Oh, cool. We were talking about pretend it's a city, I think. Was that hers? But, you know, obviously she shot Eternal Sunshine.

And I was like, well, we're going to bring this up. That's so cool. The rawness in that film coupled with all the wild V effects that are like invisible. It really has a very incredibly intriguing aesthetic. Totally, totally. And the music. What happened to Michelle Gondry? I have the director

See over there No I was like I have the director Siri box set And for some reason I went like Oh is it I'm still there I don't know Does it mean anything

Let's let's see We have the internet We can find out There's a few filmmakers Who just kind of like Decided to chill out for no reason I remember Gondry was

My friend Natasha's like favorite director ever in college and uh none of us really knew who he was but she kept parroting just just spouting off about him when you're like yeah yeah yeah yeah and obviously you pronounce it french as hell so we thought it was some lady so i was not to to your counterpoint of like actually enjoying you know like loss and translation and shit i was squarely in the i've said it a million times with like men in black the matrix oh cool oh the matrix of course just all those things that were just like tent pole yeah boy you know

300 although now I'm I'm happy to say I can now consider Larry Fong a friend which is rad because obviously shot that and watchman and shit but like all those types of movies were the ones that I was like I want to do that and then of course I never got to do that because that's a whole

level of career you're not going to get all right Michelle Gondry made a movie called the Book of solutions last year. Oh, wow. So he's still doing stuff. I got to check it out. Go ahead and directed it. Yeah, the Matrix.

Wow, sorry. Let me just change my whole answer before to the Matrix. The Matrix. That, honestly, even though I say it kind of as a joke, I would say probably half of the DPs I interview, like, we'll bring that up as like one of the, they're, there, it's wild to me. There are a bunch of kids that I've seen on like TikTok and stuff. They're like, ah, that's like an old.

movie. I don't really need to see that. And I'm like, oh, no. That might be one of the more important modern film, like, you know, post, let's say, even though it was 99, but like 2000s plus film. Definitely. It's our citizen citizen gain. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That's so good. Also gladiator I'd put in that same category for me. Not quite the same Catholic level, but damn, so good. And they're coming out with a sequel now or whatever. I know, but spiritual successor, maybe. Yeah, there was a lot of, I, I, speaking of film history, I often kind of ruminate over what was it? I know I said earlier, like, they just gave directors money and said, go for it.

But like, what was it about the 70s and the 90s that made film, I don't want to say good, because that's, you know, potentially a subjective. um moniker for it but like we all seem to have liked it you know there's great stuff coming out now but for some reason we look back at the 70s and 90s and go no that again can we do that again and we don't seem to have that formula and I'm always

wondering why yeah I mean because your guess your guess is as good as mine I mean you're probably no more than me but I feel like I doubt that I'm pretty dumb that's why I'm good at asking questions because I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about.

It's just our system. I don't know. Everyone's like risk averse and, you know, everything is run by. You said, like committee and no one wants to take chances and everyone just wants to do the next, you know,

the next sure thing. Yeah. That is, I am done with tech companies being involved. Totally. Totally. I'm sick of that. You guys can go.

Like, like, sick of that whole model of just like, you know, yeah, growing and like increasing market. share and then when everyone else is gone and just like jacking up the prices and like it's like what kind of how is that it's just yeah just not a good system it's not sustainable and also like a lot of

the tech companies if if their product wasn't physical you know if they were an app then valuation is meaningless it's just we put a number you know we can we can quote unquote sell 400 billion of these or five and the valuation stays the same because there's not a physical thing that we're making, except for obviously the product of human labor and when it comes in like coding or whatever, but that's not how movies work. Yeah. It's all

bad news. So anyway, that's the depressing cast. Thanks for listening. I did talk about that. So I wanted to know what got you into, obviously, the

that was like an NPR level coffee sip. Thank you. Um, but, uh, obviously, you know, like narrative film is what got you into filmmaking, but what dovetailed you into documentary? Because your documentary career has been stellar. I mean, like you, you, you, yeah, you've done an incredible job for yourself. So what, what got you there and what kept you successful? Well, it was completely by chance that I got into it. I graduated from college. I was working off Craigslist, shooting random crappy fiction stuff. And then someone from the show Fault Lines on Al Jazeera, I think ran a Google search for New York City, C300, D.P, and found my website and asked if I shot documentaries. And I was like, absolutely yes. And then that was like, I did that shoot and had no idea what I was doing. And then that's, I, you know, I was freelance, but I worked for that show pretty much exclusively for like six years.

shooting like 40 or 50 fit like you know little 30 minute you know news magazine film type stuff and yeah that nominated for a bunch of Emmys for that yeah got nominated for a lot of Emmys for that one one there and and then yeah it's been documentary ever since basically for better or worse I mean um but it was yeah it was really cool it was really cool like I was young I had idea. I didn't know much about the world. It was like a great way to learn about the world and also how to shoot stuff, you know, like well. Like we were trying to, you know, like everyone, we're trying to not make it look like 60 minutes or the news. It was a small team, a correspondent, me and a producer, and we're trying to like, you know, do as much as we can to make it look like fiction.

There's a lot of like verite scene work. We tried to make, you know, we tried to shoot all the interviews like they were scenes, like verite scenes. So we tried as much as we could to make it like, you know, fiction. What were some of the lessons you learned that help you make, you know, raise the production value? Because especially if you told kids now, you were shooting on a C300, they'd be like, oh, it's like, that camera still slaps. Technically, this is a C300, but.

Oh, yeah, nice. C300 is awesome. It still slaps? It does. Yeah. I love Canon cameras. I've, you know, they're very, very dear to art. I got a C-500 mark two and a 70 in the old character closet.

Love to hear it. Love to hear it. You know, I think it you like really learn, well, you learn to work, you learn to work quickly and you learn to work, you know, you learn how to work with light, like really well, like available light and like blocking them. There's like not much you can do, especially in that format where it's like you have a day or two maybe with like a family, let's say or something like that. and you need to work very quickly.

You, like, don't have time to scout. We didn't have lights back then, really. So, yeah, it was just about, like, learning how to cover, you know, how to cover a scene that's happening spontaneously. Single camera? Single camera. Yeah, just me. I was also running sound.

So, yeah, you're, like, kind of just sort of like a performance piece kind of maybe. Like, you're watching something really intense, you know, like someone, one episode, we filmed someone self-inducing, like, gave himself an abortion. And so, like, you're watching something very intimate, happening, unfolding once, and you want to be as invisible as possible, but also, like, cover that scene. So you ended up doing a lot of, like, you know, end up shooting a lot of scenes, like, as if they were oners, kind of, but, like, getting, as you're going around, getting all the different coverage and, you know, just knowing where to, yeah,

blocking people by windows, like, the whole thing, you know. And that's all been very helpful later on in the career is like, you know, now when we do that kind of stuff for docs, like we usually have lights or whatever outside the windows, you know, that we can usually like prep ahead of time. It depends on the project, but definitely makes for faster stuff and like a more natural, hopefully what's the more natural aesthetic, like, just trying to recreate the sun. Right. that what are um maybe some things you learned about making the subject of a documentary like comfortable with you as fast as possible and like getting past the kind of mechanics of the film you know like hey can i lob you up hey you know can you stand over here can we turn off all your lights you know like what are what are some of those ways that you learned how to

move efficiently but also get the job that you needed to get done done yeah totally i mean like just the who you are as a person makes like a huge it's like a lot of it I think and like who the team is and how you just enter someone's private space um like just generally like before you even arrive just the way all those the way all those conversations and expectations are laid out ahead of time with the producer or director I think is probably a lot of it um and you know a lot of it yeah a lot of it I don't have a sound person so like it's a small team which really helps and it's like quite intimate loving someone and it's like before you shoot you put the lov on and it like allows you to have this sort of like quiet private moment

with someone you know um and then the rest is just you know you just start wide and work your way around to the close-ups and um people everyone eventually almost everyone eventually like gets tired of caring about what the hell you what the hell are you doing right And for the most far, people want you there. You know, it's not like we're coercing anyone. So, like, people want to be there. They want to do a good job. And after, you know, half an hour of just, like, getting used to this roving camera around,

then people generally just forget. Well, and I imagine for shoots like that, camera's getting smaller but higher resolution. It's probably been incredibly helpful because, like, you know, you can stay on that. if they're not comfortable with you. And if you're shooting 6K or whatever, it's like, just punch in a little bit. That'll be all right.

No one's going to go to me for that. That's probably true. But it's been very weird for me because I've had like the opposite, you know, as I started with the C300 Mark 1 with a little 35 millimeter, you know,

Canon still lens on it. You shot on a prime the whole time. Yeah. A lot of that was this little, yeah, 35 and then the 70200, you know. Right. But like most of it was in the prime. And I kept,

you know, Once I upgraded to a mini, I kept that little $500, you know, Canon lens on it for longer than I should have probably. But my, yeah, my like trajectory, everything's just been getting bigger for me, you know. Then like I got a mini and then everything was on the mini. And then I got an ingenue zoom and then I got motors. And then it's like fucking huge now. So it's like, that's not good, probably.

The, you know, I actually did. The lens thing, I did the same thing with the 18 to 35 Sigma. I, like, built a career on it. And now, and then I got the C500, even though it's a super 35 lens. I'm like, it covers over 24. So maybe I just won't go under 24. And I'll just leave it. I really like that.

I was just talking to Sigma, it's in a gear about that. Yeah, you find a lens you like. And it's like, you know. I mean, if I just spends, I have the Nikor primes too, which I really like, but obviously there's no auto focus. But so you, this is something I actually did want to talk to you, about the, and then we'll get into the SR3 of it all. So you had the C300, that ostensibly got you the job.

Then you bought a mini, which I assume was due to, was you getting the mini due to need or are you trying to get hired up on bigger gigs? Yeah, there was definitely not, like no one was asking me for a mini. Okay. Yeah, it was like an aspirational purchase, like the SR3. Did that, like, you know, end up helping? Because I've always like, to like students and stuff, I'm always telling them, like, don't make aspirational purchases.

It probably won't work out for you. You know, I guess, you had a body of work already. Yeah. I think it, who knows? I think it, I think it paid off. I mean, you know, it's not like, it was weird because, you know, at the beginning, you like, I got this camera. Yeah, no one's asking me for it.

But, like, I wanted, you know, I wanted to be shooting on a Alexa for all, for obvious reasons for reasons everyone listening to this. I've got a list of cameras that I just want to have to have like just to collect like the OG red one. Like I just want them from my shelf, you know, just like it's a piece of history. That'll be very cool. You know, stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. So like, you know, it's hard to tell. Like it's not like it was like, oh, I got the mini and then I got this job or then I got that. But like, you know, then my stuff was on a mini for a while, which, like, obviously, it's harder to miss on a mini when you're shooting a scene. So, like, the quality of work maybe goes up a bit.

Real looks better. You know, especially, like, in the dock world at that time. You know, I got a, I got the mini, like, yeah, a long time ago. And at that time, you know, people were just like, it had, it still had like a sort of, you know, allure to it or whatever. So it's like, hey, you want to shoot a dock on the mini? People were like, oh, yeah, sure. I, like, wasn't making more money for it, but it just happened.

to be using it. Yeah. And it's still going strong today. Yeah. I mean, really still going. Yeah. Half the gear I own is literally just to make my life easier. You know, no one ever pays.

Sometimes depending, if you got like a corporate client, you can bill them for the nicer stuff. But generally, yeah, it's like you get your day rate and then your gear is just part of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I've definitely got lots of things that no one cares about aside from me. That just, that was not cheap, but makes it the whole process, you know? you know more enjoyable or whatever yeah so were you uh always a film were you a film photo

person before you got the SR3 or you went the other way um no I was like I came to like photography film photography later much later yeah just in the last like five years or so and you know just as like a hobby well you know you're like a DP you got to like get the stills camera and then you got everyone shooting on films he got to shoot on film you know right I actually talked to when I was talking to Hoyta about that because he's always there's always BTS photos of him

with his LICA and I thought that was a film LICA and he's he was like no it's digital and I was like what photos are you taking he's like I don't even save any of them I was like what and it's because he's shooting film so he'll take the photo and just show it to Nolan and be like that's basically what it's going to look like and they go okay

and then that's and then he just like deletes it or like wipes the car or whatever like there's no No reason for him to be using a Lyca with, you know. That's a flex. Yeah. Super flex. I know. Everyone's got, yeah, every DP's got their stupid lika.

I know. I don't. Or the black and white one, you know. I do really want one of those digital monochrome likas. I love black and white photography. Like, I'm always coming back to it. And I want one. Yeah.

It's another camera I do not need, but I would love to have on the shelf, you know. Yeah. Well, you're a DP. that's why you know the pull of the monochrome like it is strong yeah um so what what uh spurt was it just getting a film camera and having it because you've also like rigged up your sr3 to be like more a little more modern right yeah i've put everything that i can on it to make it as easy as possible to shoot on um but yeah you know i've love you know i love film i love 16 millimeter film uh like the aesthetic that aesthetic is just so beautiful and it's like really

impossible I think to I mean if you can get close on digital but it's one of those things like the mini is like no one was asking me to shoot on the SR3 no one was like asking me to shoot on film period and it was like if I'm gonna ever shoot anything on film like I just need to do it myself you know fucking buy one and learn how to use it first and foremost and then try and just give it you know it's like the mini is like I get it and just like try and give it away on projects every project now. It's like, oh, interesting. Yeah, I love the project. Have you thought about maybe incorporating 16 millimeter film? Right, right. Maybe the re-cre, maybe this, maybe that. Well, and it's kind of working. Well, and to be fair, the other day,

someone was online talking about how, oh, wait, I know who that was. Never mind. I'm not going to say it's that. But there was a discussion around the applicability of shooting 16, as a independent creator or whatever. And I priced it out and I was like, if you were to shoot a music video, I like basically looked at how much footage I had from a music video or a fashion gig I had just shot. And I just calculated the time, gave myself a three to one ratio, priced out the rental and the purchase of all that film. And I was like, it was about the cost of my end of the fashion gig anyway.

It's like not terrifically more expensive. It's certainly like you have to be more precise, but it's not necessarily more expensive. depending on the thing. Exactly. Preach. That's what I'm trying to get that message out there. So I'm trying to say. I'll take 5% whenever I get you.

Because you change the way you shoot, you know. It's not like you're shooting the way that you're shooting on digital. If you're shooting on film, you're not like going to be just rolling on all the takes and whatever. It's like you shoot differently. And it brings, you know, really that whole energy on set is like completely different because it's like everyone's at the top of their game

because it's like you get one or two takes. But yeah, you know, But depending on where you get it developed and where you get it scanned, it's like, it ends up being like anywhere between 70 cents and a dollar a second that that camera is running. Yeah. You know, it's so frustrating too because like it does elevate everyone, but that just proves that everyone could do that for shooting digital. They just don't, you know?

Yeah, totally. There's a safety net there. So you're like, all right, well, I'm not going to. Yeah. The tools affect the project. and like the performance and everything. Yeah. Which is,

but it's, yeah. That's a very fun psychological thing too, right? Like we, we all wish that everything was objective, you know, especially in the camera world,

like this, this camera's objectively better, that this has more stops DR, whatever, you know, there are known truths. And then it's like, yeah,

but if you shoot film, people work harder. You know, that's not a known truth. let's see oh kind of in the same vein when we were talking about like shooting doc and working on your own

I watched that little kimono short that you shot and you directed that right yeah I directed that with with another person Mimi Wilcox yeah so to walk me through shooting that and like the size

of the crew because it looks gorgeous and I was wondering if that was like you coming off of shooting doc and going like well I know how to do this already and working with that guy specifically kind of going back to what we're talking about making subjects comfortable like how much directing of him were you doing like go stand over there like go do that or were you just following him yeah we shot that we shot that in two days uh it was me and this other filmmaker we we stayed we stayed at his he was like he we could we're connected to with this guy it's this old guy he's like um he's in southern japan he's like one of this one of the few remaining people who can

um who makes the kimono fabric in like this traditional way like he'll go out into like the field you know he'll go out and like gather mulberries and like crush them and like boil them in a dye like his whole process is like super you know traditional um so we were connected to him through an old friend of mine and we stayed at his, you know, we stayed at his place for two nights and it was just, yeah, I mean, one other person, that was the whole crew. We shot it on the mini. And that was awesome because it was like, the whole thing was like so intimate. Like we're literally staying at his house. And so we're filming, we're kind of, he's kind of on all the time and we're, you know, like blending the line between like, you know, we're, you know, we're, like, we're

guests, we're also like filming him, you know, we're having lunch with them, but now we're filming him having lunch, you know, it was all like yeah, it was very easy to make him feel comfortable. Oh, I'm going to translate her, of course, because I don't speak Japanese. Right. But yeah.

Because the other thing I love about that short is like, it's a DP's dream production design wise. Totally. You don't got to touch shit. You just show up and you're like, this looks great. Roll it. The whole thing. Yeah, it was overwhelming.

It was like, everything looks so good. How, where do we begin? And it's in Japan. I mean, you know, yeah, it was awesome. It was awesome. And when did you shoot that? That was a long time ago, man. Was it really?

That was like 20, well, I don't know, 2018 or 2019. See, in my head, I think, I think I still have COVID-era brain. Not like I got it, but like, where 2019 to now is still, that's all, like, last year. I know. Yeah. Same. Time flies. In fact, it does. Time flies. Yeah, especially when the whole world is like experiencing a traumatic, whatever lockdown pause. Yeah. So what ended, if that was forever ago, what projects in between that and now got you on to quite on set? it was mostly the New York Times show do you ever watch that no not well New York Times made us TV show called the weekly and the idea was that was going to be

like a weekly show about you know whatever kind of like the daily but the weekly you know um so yeah that was like the main thing that got me into the show because that I developed the worked in the pilot for the weekly with this person Mary Robertson who was in charge of creating that pilot and was eventually the showrunner for that show and um she is the one that started this company Maxine and then was the you know EP and director of quiet on set but yeah it was like through a you know a couple of years of working for the weekly um it was kind of like, you know, taking what we were, what we were already doing at fault lines from Al Jazeera, which was kind of like a vice aesthetic. It was before vice, but it was, you know, a lot of overlap

from people going from Jazeera to the vice. And, um, well, and Jazeera's still around and vice is not. Jazeera is still around. That's true. You got the better company out of the deal. Eat your heart out, vice. No, it's horrible that vice shut down. It's like another fucking problem with like, you know, the whole like, like tech, you know. now the tech model of like expanding, attracting markets, it's like horrible, so horrible. We need vice now more than ever. My God. Now we just have what, front line 60 minutes, maybe, I don't know, yeah.

Pod save America. Pods save America, yeah. Maybe they'll start making, maybe they'll start making documentaries. Anyway, sorry. But anyway, yeah, so I was doing that. It was like we took that kind of similar format and then over one and a half years and like 30 episodes or so. we were shooting the show, the weekly, which is like a bigger budget version

of what we were doing it. Jazeera. Yeah. So, yeah. So there's some good shows in there. You should watch some of them. Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah.

Like I said, anything that's in a serialized format, I'm not really into it. And news especially is something that I... Fair enough. I read more than anything, you know. That's good. Yeah, I wouldn't... Yeah, I find...

it hard to watch news stuff as well. Yeah, I mean, I'm also a child of the Daily Show. So it's like, if John Stewart says it, it must be true. It's a terrible way to go about your life. But, you know, that's good. I trust his moral compass. But so talk to me about the pre-production then on the doc. Was it kind of all, because you shot what, the interviews and then like the,

I don't know if you'd call it recreations or whatever, but like the other stuff. Yeah, all of it. Yeah, the recre, evocative visuals. Yeah. Whatever. Pick a euphemism for re-cre. Yeah, yeah. So what was the pre-production like and how long was that shoot for you?

We shot that whole thing over, I don't know, a number of months, I guess. The whole thing was probably about a year from the first, like, from when I came on to when we, you know, finished, shot the last recree sequence. and it was a very exciting project to get a call for. I mean, did you grow up watching Nickelodeon? Of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, same.

So, like, you know, I loved watching all that. Yeah. It was like that cartoon network were like the only two things that were ever on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So then Mary freaking calls me and like, you know, we worked together on controlling Britney Spears. And like, you know, I knew she's going to do something that was like, whatever, a big cultural moment, like this idea of looking at, you know, looking at something as big as Britney Spears is like a post-me-to lens, right?

And it like touched, it really touched a nerve. And so the idea of like kind of doing that same approach more or less to like something like Nickelodeon, something like I actually, you know, grew up on. It's like what I thought, I watched those shows every day. So it's like what I thought was funny or cool was basically. on those shows. And like now it's like, oh, did you know that like there's all these things that were happening on screen that were like arguably sexual and this is like what's happening on screens? Like what is happening behind the scenes and like what does it mean for

me and like all of us like as a culture like the Britney Spears stuff that we like laugh at this or like you know, think this is funny or cool or that it's normal to like laugh at, you know, minors having goo like squirt on their faces like, you know, their kids. The time I thought probably thought it was funny but now it's definitely after the whole project it's yeah it's definitely not funny it's pretty fucked up

I weirdly enough I did find the sliming thing uncomfortable as a kid only because I felt bad for him because it felt it felt like bullying almost it didn't feel like hooray it was always like oh fuck that sucks for them I always

apparently yeah I was gonna say I also didn't put together as a kid that they were filming a lot of those, like, game shows at Orlando, like, Universal Studio. They say it at the end of, you know, filmed in front of a live audience in Universal Studio. I thought it was just at a studio, not like these were all kids on vacation, coming into the, you know, and then just getting the shit kicked out of them, Legends of the Hidden Temple or whatever. Oh, I love that show. That show escaped unscaped from the series, yeah. Olmec, the big head. Real, uh, real, real chill guy.

But, yeah, so it was like, anyway, it was a lot of fun, you know, it was very exciting to get the chance to, like, develop a look based on the source material that was, like, my TV culture growing up, basically. Right. And it was a lot of fun. Yeah, Mary's a good collaborator. Like, she really, you know, she really prioritizes, like, having a strong visual language for these documentaries. And it's like not always something that is prioritized in docs these days, especially like docs for, you know, these sort of like streamer docs like, yeah, it's not always something that's prioritized. But we like, yeah, spent a long time figuring out how, you know, what we wanted to, this like world we wanted to create. Yeah. So what were like your references or touch points? Because it's a very, the interviews, especially like dealing with a dark subject are relatively colorful. Yes, exactly. But like in a creepy, way yeah sure yes we like took as our starting point like we watched these shows and like basically made our color palette you know we took our color palette from these shows so it's like all these

big pops of like primary color basically like we wanted it to feel like this sort of topsy turvy world like if what was happening on screen for these kids shows was like this beautiful dream then this was like the nightmare version of that like in front of the camera beautiful hallucination, this story, like the horrible come down from that high, where it's like scary and creepy and it feels like it's sort of connected, like there's the same colors, but like it's now it's not high key. Yeah, there's no fill light. It's like dark and moody and the colors like don't really make any sense.

They're like bleat. There's like the lights are colored. Like it's bleeding like in all these places that make us just feel kind of uncomfortable and like maybe a bit dirty watching it. Yeah. So yeah, that was the idea. And like, you know, as you saw, like, the interviews, like, they're all, we set them in all the places that these stories were taking place, really. You know, we wanted to make, like, these behind the scenes areas, like center stage. So all the places that are invisible, usually, like, you know, the video village, the writer's room, like makeup room. Like, we wanted to make, like, shine a light on these places. And, yeah, and, like, lift up the stories that were happening there. Yeah. Were you put in a position where?

where obviously we've touched on like how you can work, as your website says, with a small footprint. But were you put in that position where you had still work kind of efficiently or were you able to really like pre-light and kind of get as much gear as you needed and set those interviews up? And also what were your lighting setups generally for, you know, with however many examples you want? We had, we're doing two, basically two interviews a day. So, you know, we had a crew. It was, yeah, it was not just me. We had like a very reasonably sized crew for this kind of thing. two cameras.

And, yeah, I feel like doing two interviews a day is kind of like, it feels like kind of the standard, you know. It's not a lot of time, but it's enough time to like throw stuff up there. Yeah. And we were, we were like, you know, like a lot of people that, you know, these days, there's a lot of aperture lights. Yeah.

There's a lot of, it was all, they're all, they're all RGB LEDs basically. because we wanted, you know, lots of color. So there's a lot of apertures, esteras, that kind of a thing. Yeah. Yeah. I make this joke every time, but like I need a counter on the wall for every time someone mentions the astera tubes. I just be like, put it up because I'm pretty sure out of 100.

This will probably be like episode 152, I think, something like that. It's probably been mentioned 148 times. Yeah. Yeah. They're amazing. They're really amazing. And they can make all these amazing modifiers for them now. So it's like, you know, you can, it's like an amazing travel kit as well.

Like, because you can, you know, they pack, they have that incredibly efficiently sized box that the case they come in. But then you can, you know, you can, you can bring like another small pelican full of like light socks and V boxes and whatever. And like suddenly you've got all these, you know, like easily controllable, soft, big soft or hard, yeah, relatively hard sources. Not hard, but, you know. Anyway, yeah. Not theatrically hard, but hard in general. Not hard, but I mean, like, whatever. Scratch that.

It's not hard. No one, I'm not saying that they're hard sources, but you can make it as they are or softer. Well, have you used the hydropanels? Nope. So the hydropanels are basically just instead of tubes, they're bricks, and you can, they have these little magnets, you can put diffusers, intensifiers, grids, whatever. Those are actually pretty hard. Cool.

So, I mean, because it's like just, you know, it's that. It's a light source that's that big. So. And they punch. Like, they're quite bright. If you put four of them together, like you've got a decent. Eh, you probably hit like an F4. But like, no.

No, probably brighter than that. Maybe up to an eight. But like, you could use it as a maybe get some diffusion on it. I've been playing with them recently. So I'm like, that's the exact same thing. They also, were you at Sennegear? No, I missed it. No.

Yeah. I mean, there wasn't like any. thing terrifically cool there, but it was nice to like, you always end up seeing all your friends and shit. Yeah, totally. Astrid now makes practical bulbs. Like the Nix bulbs? Kind of, because they have their own version of that, but now they have these little ones that

are powered by the socket. They're not battery powered. So that whole bottom half that makes it look like a Nix bulb or whatever is gone. And you can replace the diffuser with any kind of shape. so you can make the lights look like period accurate or whatever. Oh, cool. So those were a neat little

thing I saw, but I don't think I was like a gun to sin a gear. They'll do it again. It'll happen next year. I did want to know, like, going, would you say that this was the, like, most involved project you've worked on?

Most involved, how? Like, in terms of, I suppose crew size pre-production equipment all that kind of thing the follow

question just being like what were the things that you learned because I feel like everyone learned something from a project so like what were the things

that you learned cinematography wise or filmmaker holistically wise on this project good question um You know, you know, I'm sure I learned a lot of things, just trying to think of something good to say.

I learn a lot all the time. I mean, every project I work on, you know, it's like, yeah, I learn all kinds, all kinds of new stuff. like and then you know like a year passes from something you've shot before and you like look at that thing a year later and it's like wow I've like I really like messed up a bunch of things back then yeah well that was going to be my I hate asking it this way because this is not that no one I tried this when I first started this podcast like four years ago and it never worked but it's basically like what'd you fuck up because that's where I can go on and on about that oh there you go so feel free that's where all the lessons come from

Yeah, well, I don't know. See? If I mention that, I'm in trouble. You know, one thing like, I think the thing that, if there's one thing that I learned on working on this project, it's like, oh, God. I don't know. What if I learned nothing working on this project? That is also fine. I mean, like, there is something that is certainly cathartic about going in and just, like,

doing the job you were capable of to the best of your ability and feeling good about it. And just being like, yeah, I did that one good. Like, there's no. Yeah. I'm like, I'm very, you know, I'm very happy. I'm very proud of, like, the work we did developing the look and, like, you know, the recree was like we had these horrible constraints where it's like not a horrible constraint sorry we had this we had this important constraint which was um we decided early on we weren't

going to use child actors you know at the whole i mean the whole series is about maybe maybe you've seen it's probably a good idea yeah it's like maybe maybe it's not ethical having child actors like full stop so anyway we we decided not to have them for this and you know the recre is mostly about things that happened to kids or like stories told from the kids perspective. So you know, so that was

it was very, it was a very creatively fruitful constraint to have because then we didn't have kids in these and it changed the whole look and feel of the recree entirely. Like they weren't, you know, I guess it could have been done, we could have done the recree like a million different ways that would have been just,

really really shitty yeah uh it's like full of landmines you know this idea like doing recrees about like child abuse it's yeah but on paper that's a toughy it's a toughy you're probably going to mess it up yeah and you know not having this constraint was super helpful because then it forces to think out of the box and like you know we weren't yeah we treated them sort of like these dreams kind of where you don't see people's faces in the dreams you know you just kind of get your see let we focus on like the light on like the patterns of light on the window or like the evidence of children like their backpack slung on a chair and it's sort of like, you know, examining these scenes like a crime scene or like a, you

know, child's consciousness like floating over these traumatic events and focusing on whatever. Leading stuff up to the imagination, basically, which is probably the right way to do it. 100%. Well, you know, the audience reaction proves it. Like, you know, one of the most streamed shows ever. I know. It's crazy. People identified with it.

There was, you know, you remind me there was this on the game commentary, Finchers, the game. He mentions how it's more important to decide what you don't do than what you do do. And it took me over a decade to understand what that meant, like what that actually meant in terms of, because it's like, well, I don't shoot 4K because I can't or whatever. You know, it was, but the idea of like, all right, we're not going to use child actors. Not only gives you that important constraint, because when you have an empty sandbox, you know, I feel like you make nothing good. Constraint makes creative. And you just make, you know, they just make like AI stuff. Yeah.

That's why I'm not that concerned about AI taking like writing jobs or or even, you know, SORA generated. It is like the audience is whoever's going to try that is going to very quickly learn. that they are not creative they don't have good ideas and they're bored. Not everyone. Obviously there's going to be a couple people who fucking knock it out of the park. There always will be but in general I don't see this ground swell of like

oh yeah well I made John Wick 5 right here in my basement it's like what does he do? Oh he fights a bunch of guys great job none of us could have done that we'll see hopefully you're right one day we'll all be in the metaverse one day soon anyway nothing will be nothing will be real

I mean that would be at least exciting you know but but yeah what you don't do I think is is an important was that part of the was that and obviously

that was one conversation but did you go into that kind of going like all right what isn't this or was that definitely that's like the easiest thing I feel like for all these projects like knowing off the bat

you know we know off the bat that we didn't want what we didn't want like finding what we do want is like much harder like we oh wow yeah that's been happening recently i think i think everyone who has a mac if they do a thumbs up it does that for you because it doesn't do it to me that's crazy oh there's also one there's also one that'll make fireworks i still don't know how people have been doing that it's like a right but anyway is it that nothing now anyway uh what yes we knew

Sorry, so we knew right away what we didn't want. It's a new fun game. Yeah, I'm just going to keep putting and doing thumbs up now. You know, we didn't want to look like every other sort of like premium streaming dock out there. Like, we didn't want it to look super clean and like, you know, we didn't want them, people looking into the lens because I feel like, you know, at the time that felt very overplayed, like goes back and forth. No, I feel like maybe it's not overplayed anymore. I don't know. No, I actually do think it is.

And also the one I'm kind of sick of seeing. although a buddy a little buddy of mine is doing it currently is looking into camera and having that really wide crazy headroom ACAM why why do we do that

like dude you know why it's because people are like fucking desperate I feel like doc depes are desperate to find a you know to find a new interview frame at least I am I think it's the hardest thing

I fully get like the wanting to do something different because yeah there's only so many ways to shoot this you know but it's like even short-sighting someone people there's like one half of the crowd will be like you're not supposed to do that and then the other half's like that's played out because we're not supposed to so we're doing it you know yeah I know yeah let's just shoot them from behind just back in the head and they're but but not them looking forward they have to talk over their shoulder at you that sounds good honestly that sounds good I'm sure that's

a project that would make perfect sense for and i'm here for it i mean like yeah that's the thing when like deciding whether to take on a project or not it's like yeah you really have to for me it's like if you if there's something like that where it's like oh this means we can like do something different for the you know interviews or there's no interviews or whatever you know or can or we can do the interviews on a handicam so it's about like this thing that happened in the 90s whatever yeah just desperate for something that feels you know new you know it's like i'm not saying we did that with on set necessarily but at least it doesn't look like you're running the mill you know it's right yeah you're under the mill whatever the true true crime doc not that you know

they all do currently have kind of a look i mean like true crime is one of got to be one of the more explosive uh in terms of a number of productions um yeah the honor loves true crime definitely the thing about I feel like the brilliance of like Mary and you know like it's it's packaging this sort of deeper investigative cultural piece like more nuanced piece within like a true crime package you know and like sell it but then also like you know trick people yeah the chocolate covered broccoli as it were yes exactly yes the true crime covered whatever social critique cultural critiques yeah yeah the you know what speaking of the weird framing is like something I've noticed. I don't know how on YouTube you are, but one thing I've noticed is a lot of these guys, it's always guys, will also trying to do, you know,

like this frame differently, will like hold their microphone and go sit 700 yards away. Oh, that's cool. But it's all of them, though. So now it's already overplayed because they're one of, one of the popular ones must have done it.

And now they're all doing it. They also shoot four three, you know, heavy film emulation, definitely. All the fucking. far away. And it just made me think like, oh, what if we do, you and I are shooting a dock now. Like, just do the interview outside looking through the window at the person, looking at that,

you know, just now it's like. Yeah, right. Maybe you can find the new YouTuber aesthetic. I'm going to steal all those ideas, though, for the next doc, by the way. That's all things. That's all things that I like. I'll tell you, though, do not have them holding the mic. Everyone's, I have seen people doing that now. because I mentioned it at the beginning and I know he listens

so he's going to text me the second he hears this but Larry Fong will text me like screenshots of people like just you know eating their microphones and he's just like what is this why are we doing this? I start doing that right now. Yeah just here I got it's just

you know this is cool this actually already feels Mark is more interesting if we just sit here and do the entire I tried I tried to do this episode 150 with Johnny Durango I had hand mics because we did it in person and he was like no I don't want to hold a mic let's I got boundary mics let's use those and I was like okay so we're drinking whiskey though so it's like we needed our hands free oh that's cool or I guess you know what oh here's a better one do it like the old boxing ring like oh that's

that's good you know just this kind of thing that's kind of cool next time yeah We'll see that one day in a dock, I'm sure. Yeah. And you'll know that I've truly run out of ideas. Yeah. Where do you go for like, I should probably stop touching things before I start talking. Where do you go for like inspiration? Are you like a photo book kind of guy or like going on walks or, you know, where do your ideas tend to come from?

Oh, that's a good question. I don't know. I feel like I don't have a lot of inspiration. I probably need to like look at more books and say. stuff. You know, I, I don't know. I don't watch a lot of things all the way through, but I will like scrub through everything that's out there and just like try and find, you know, interesting frames or whatever.

But yeah, I read books. I go on walks. I do gardening. Gardening's a good one. Because that also gets you into that kind of meditative state where you, that like that that recovery position of or a section of flow state you know or you've done everything and now you need to recoup so the ideas come that's that's gardening right there yeah i highly recommend gardening wow it's so good um yeah man that's hard finding time to be like inspired or

like get inspiration generally it's like the hardest part of the job yeah that's you know it's it's funny i uh i called the podcast frame in reference because I fit a a play on words but B I thought it would be more talking about people's like what basically what did you steal from and that element of the conversation seems to last about two minutes oh interesting you know it's like oh yeah we liked you know speed or what you know a Chinatown we watched and we were like something like that and then that's that's the end of it and then it's like from there I took it you know I did my own thing and you're like oh duh like no I don't think anyone watches the movie goes I'm just

going to rip that wholesale and be and be blatant about it you know i definitely well i definitely feel like yeah once i'm like in a project and we're like developing the look and like pulling references like yeah then like for specific projects you know when you have to be inspired and have to produce then you know then it is whatever it's just like it's just being online and like it's being on you know frame set and shot deck and whatever and just like scrolling and pulling out references and watching stuff that is relevant. I love doing that stuff. But like outside of that, just generally inspiration, like general inspiration stuff, whatever,

that's like, I'm just waiting for that inspiration to come. I mean, to be fair, a lot of times the inspiration comes from getting a job. Like, why would you sit there and just think like, ooh, what's some creative ways to do something nebulous that I don't actually have a target for? Yeah, that's true. That's true. I mean, watching stuff, you know, when I do watch something like, you know, watching something that is shot really cool.

Did you see, like, there's a short, I've watched a lot of short docs lately. There was a short doc last year, I think. Long line of ladies by Sam Davis was like, I think it was nominated for an Oscar. Shot on 16. It's like beautiful, short, whatever, you know. Like, you know, it's like, yeah,

I still get most inspired and most, like, motivated by watching the rare time I watch something that is like, oh, it feels like you can, it feels achievable and also feels like, new and just like wow how do they do that like watching a magic trick you know it's like wow how do they how do they do that and it's like and it's not a massive marvel movie it's like just a couple of people like doing something like whatever making it work and yeah that stuff really inspires me generally it's just hard to come by that stuff you know uh an example i've used a bunch is uh very 90s

Tony Hawk doing the 900. Oh my God. Because before that, it was kickflips, right? Ooh, kickflip board slide? Hell yeah. And then that dude does a 900. And now, like, a couple weeks ago, this, like, seven-year-old girl just did a 900 for the first time.

And there's, like, old, yeah, first girl ever to do a 900, I think. I mean, like, child. I'm sure there's a, like, older woman who's done it. But, like, kids are out here doing, like, 1280s. and stuff just the crate like if you watch street league now the the technical proficiency of the average skateboarder is fucking bonkers and it all started with someone like tony doing the 900 someone like roddy mullen doing you know inventing the kickflip and all this stuff where it's like you don't know you can do it until you see it and there's only so many people who are doing that

so when you when you talk about like it's it's hard to find inspiration it's like yeah nine times out of 10 it's not you or me doing a 900 we got to wait for someone else to do it so we go oh shit okay okay that that gave me an idea and then you move on because now you know it's possible the problem is like you know after the 900 or whatever 1280 it's like there's only so many times the human body can like turn around in the circle that's why they start doing what are we supposed what are we supposed to do everyone's done all those rotations now it's like then you start adding corks you start adding you know board flips you start doing varials all kinds of that's true yeah that's the thing you see it once and then you yeah

that's yeah that's that's that's a silly one but it's something i think about a lot because i always try to think like what can i do without being i'm very like punk rock contrarian so when someone says like oh this is it or you can't do that i'm like i bet i bet we can you know so it's i'm always trying to find not that i'm anywhere near in the like tony hawk of filming but just the idea of being told no it frustrates the shit out of me or not even being told no but just like the pervasive idea being like, oh, there's a way that we do this. Yeah, totally. Don't rock the boat. And it's like, wait,

you can use a little rocking. I mean, it's a safe boat usually. Like, you can give it a little to get something out of it. Definitely, half the rock, yeah. If we're not out there rocking the boat, then like, what are we doing? We might as well just be freaking, you know, AI or whatever. Like, we need to create new stuff. And yeah, go back

to get that econ degree back up and running. Yeah. Although accounting does involve a lot of creativity, to be fair. A lot of things involve creativity now that I think. I was going to say, like, no, that's stupid. That's a dumb line of questioning. All right, well, I've actually kept you over for a bit, so I'll let you go.

But it was really nice talking to you, man. Yeah, nice talking to you, too. We should hang out some time. Yeah, I live, yeah, will it do it? Oh, my God. You got the fireworks. Yeah, man, keep in touch. I'm around

So we'll Yeah, cool Take care brother Yeah, see you later Bye Frame and Reference is an Al-Bod production It's produced and edited by me

Kenny McMillan And distributed by Pro Video Coalition If you'd like to support the podcast Reck and you can do so on Patreon By going to frame and refpod.com Where you can get all the episodes And clicking the Patreon button It's always appreciated

And as always, thanks for listening Thank you.