Frame & Reference Podcast - 155: "Mind Body Spirit" DP Blake Horn

Episode Date: August 15, 2024

This week we're privileged to have Blake Horn on the program to talk about his work on Mind Body Spirit! Visit https://www.frameandrefpod.com for everything F&R https://www.patreon.com/frameandrefpod Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coast's leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠⁠Filmtools.com⁠⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello, and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny Macmillan, and you're listening to episode 155 with Blake Horn, DP of Mind, Body, Spirit. Enjoy. Yeah, now I think about it, the original C500 basically was built so that you could plug it into a codex and get the 4K raw. Yeah, exactly. And then the Odyssey came out and it was just like, you know, I forget how many, there's like a whole amount. Yeah, yeah. I have an Odyssey still.

You do? Yeah, yeah. They're great. I love them. Yeah, I still deploy. I mean, they're heavy. But like, it's probably still one of the better monitors on the market. I mean, it's not on the market, but available.

Were you saying, were you about to say I still deploy it? Yeah. I'm going to start using that. That's, that's, I've never said that. That's amazing. Speaking of not record, I didn't record my. But yeah, no, I'll still, I'll still bring the Odyssey out on, you know, especially because like the other ones I have are like the OG 702 bright, you know, which is like, let's go. It's blurt.

Yeah, but that one's definitely hard to, like, check focus on. And then actually, you know a company that's made some really good monitors that, obviously, it's like the new Chinese tech is O-C. Oh, O-C. O-C-E-E. Okay. I think I've seen it on a new shooter, but there's so many, there's so much good gear now. Everything. Even, like, the knock-offs are good.

And it's insane. I still rock a, oh, sorry, go ahead. I was going to say, did you go to Cinegear? No, no, no, no. I've only been to NAB once, like in 2018, but I've been just working so much. I haven't had time to go on any of the trade shows or anything like that. But, dude, I've still rocked like a 703 and a 503, and they're the best. And, like, that's it.

Like, everything's good now. Everything's good. That's, well, to the trade show point, you're not really missing much. It's the same. It's like everything's good. And every once in a while someone comes out with something new that's like mild. cooler like cannon with that C-400 is like oh triple base ISO that's neat I looked at the specs and I'm like I wonder you know I wonder if it's good there uh

I can say this because this episode won't come out for a while but uh they're sending me to phoenix next week I don't know what the phoenix is no no no they're sending me to Phoenix I don't know what Phoenix yeah I does the middle of the country is very goofy um You could call it at the middle. But yeah, they're sending me out there to go, like, it's a press thing. But, you know, I looked at the itinerary, and I guess they're going to give us one to, like, test, like, go do a shoot day with it or something. So I'll have more info. It looks entry.

But, again, it's like, I have a C500 mark two and a C70. And the C400's like, yeah, that's real cool. I don't see the need, you know. Is it super 35 or a full frame? Is it Super 35 or a full frame? Full frame 6K, backside illuminated. Sure. Yeah.

The C70 is amazing. So is obviously the 500 Mark 2, but. The 70s special. It is. I love that. I shot a whole doc on it like a year and a half ago, and I loved it. Absolutely loved it. Yeah.

The only thing, there's two things about that camera I wish were different. And I told them to, I know like some people at Cannes. And I told them straight up, I was like, if you make a C70 Mark 2, literally all you have to do is make this screen more robust and give me SDI and we're done. And they said that's basically a C300. And I was like, I, okay. They have so many steps to their hands. They got to pretend.

I love, you know, I can, I can do the HDI train. I'm okay with it. It's never a deal breaker for me. I'm like, oh, good. You know, yeah, it's fine. SDI's nice, but, you know, I can do HDMI. Yeah. I mean, the big upgrade.

even from like, I think the 200, but definitely like the 100 and whatever was just having time code on it. Yeah, that's huge. That's surprising too, because it's like a little secret port on the front. Yeah, right here. It's just how good.

It's like, you know, it's a very strange placement, but it works. I've never, it never gotten the way for me and, you know, ah, it's a great camera. There's no such thing as a bad camera now. Everything's good. Yeah.

Everything's good. That Barano is confusing, I will say. Oh, dude, you know it's good. You know it's probably a stunning image. And I've never. On a tripod, killer. Actually, there's only two things about that camera that are like, stupid as hell. Okay, okay.

Let's hear it. One, you need like a spreadsheet to know what formats you can record in. Because like every format on that camera is a different crop or a different file form. mat or if you get to a certain FPS you have to switch around like that is incredibly confusing and yeah the the rolling shutter on it is pretty poor but the only reason I'm bringing it up is just because like for 25 grand yeah like come on you but you can't you can't you can't do that for 25 you could get a mini mini v1 with with 30,000 hours on it but it'll still go. For 25, you could get an OG Alexa. You could get four OG Alexas. You really, yeah,

that would be a lot of weight. Oh my gosh. You'd be, those were fun. Those are amazing cameras. Like, they're still amazing cameras. That's so, like, it's hard to believe. Like, they're stunning. Yeah. Do you get, um, not on like your narrative work, but like when you're doing commercials or any kind of, um, those like smaller hires like I tend to do. Do you, do you get, requests for a camera. Did you get hired for a camera or do they come to you with that? Depends on definitely like the production company too. Like some production companies are like,

hey, we have all this in-house gear. We want you to use it, obviously, to not do a rental. And, you know, I'm usually open to any camera. You know what I mean? There's a few of that I'm like, this isn't really the right tool for the job. But now cameras are just so incredibly flexible. It's like you can shoot so much with an FX3.

You can shoot so much with the C70. you can shoot so much with an FX6, right? But it's like, okay, if, you know, we want gimbal, we're traveling, we want this, X, Y, or Z, you know, I sort of picked the camera from there. But I'm super flexible with what camera it is. And, you know, I'm shooting a Docker right now with an FX3 and I'm running my own sound. And it's working out. It's like, this is really, I'm using the deity Theos, which is fun.

Love the Theos. I got one over here. Yeah, right? They're great. I love it. it's well those those with the time code boxes and the slate like that ecosystem being able to control it from the phone sync everything with a button mute talent from the phone you know you don't got to go fiddle with them change the game like that's all sick it's really nice it's like

a huge upgrade but you know like and then lenses it's like there's so many lenses now I can't believe it there that so many anamorphic lenses and everyone has like a different characteristic. I use the, um, what are the white 1.3 squeeze, um, full frame cover. Oh, I literally actually, it's not Apollos. Shit. I literally just talk to those guys at Sinegear. Um, I know who you're talking about. Whatever. Go to pro video coalition. We have a video on it. They're not DZO. Shoot. That's a problem. They're T-2s. What is it? I was just going to say, There's a thousand Chinese companies with lenses that are all, like, pretty good.

Dude, I loved them. I shot this, like, little shore on them. There was so much fun. They were, like, they were kind of great. And, you know, they're big and relatively heavy, but they're not cooks, you know, they're not cuck anamorphics. And you're like, these are great. And I don't know.

It's just, it's a really exciting time to be a filmmaker. And, like, you know, it's a challenging time to be, I think, like a rental house right now. yeah because like for some mind-body spirit right it's like we originally went to a rental house we didn't want to shoot with a big camera one a little camera we wanted something that sort of looked like it was it could be shot by someone at home so he used like a black magic 6k pro and i use that on a big travel gig the year before so i was super comfortable with it or actually a 6k not a 6k pro but only upgrades and when we went to a rental house

with like what we needed and what we wanted it was like not the build at all that we wanted so much more expensive and we just outright bought the camera and the entire kit yeah now it's like every like little cameras like obviously like

an airy or I guess you could even argue not a red but a red or a Venice it's like you know you're not not going to try to put that on RS2, right? It's like you're going to be using traditional Steadicam or a larger gimbal or a Dahlia Fisher, whatever you have it. That Raptor is surprisingly small. The Raptor is small. The Raptor is kind of rad. And I've never really been a big

red fan, but I think the Raptor was their first actually excellent camera. Hmm. The Raptor feels like a camera. Yeah. It doesn't feel like a computer. Yes. The Komodo is. Dude, the commode is so sick. Like, the commota's amazing. It's tiny. It's so small. If I could find one for like a thousand, I would just buy it. Like, I don't need one.

That's the thing. But I do, I suddenly have started just collecting stuff. Oh, that's my life. Yeah. So now it's like, I kind of want, like, I want an OG Alexa. I want a red one, literally just for the shelf. That's a crazy one. That's a crazy one to get.

Yeah. But the Comodo, I think, like, if it was affordable enough, I would just, like, pick one up. Because there's so many uses for it, and the image is great, and you get red brawn. You know, it's like, they're like little rippers. I love them. And the Raptor, the Raptor is a maze. Yeah. The Raptor is a really cool camera.

And you're like, oh, this, it's, the SDI is where I thought it should be. And, like, dude, Epic X's. You're like, trying to so hard to get it in there. you have to turn off the camera, take off the battery, take off the plate and then put in your SDI because it's just like so challenging to reach. Yeah. Actually, my buddy's over at this company,

Mutiny, make a really great little backpack for, I think the Raptor and the Komodo, but it like gives you a bunch of power ports, extra like I think SDI, a battery plate that's not sideways, you know, so you put like normal.

They have an adapter where you can put like DeWalt 12 volt, drill batteries on it. I love this. Because I thought it was so stupid at first, not stupid, like dumb, but like stupid funny. And then I was like,

well, wait a minute. If you're on a documentary in the middle of nowhere, somebody probably has a drill battery. Right? I want to know who has used that and it like saved them in a pinch.

Like I want to know. Yeah. Because I've seen that. I've seen that online before. And I was like, this is interesting, and it's cool. And that's actually, you would look, that would be a talking point. Shooting like the wall battery. That's cool.

Because I'm always, like, one reason why I like shooting cameras with SD is if you forget the media, chances are you can find a store that's got, like, even, you know, Walgreens probably has SD cards, you know. So it's like, for batteries, like you can't, you know, finding a VLock's impossible. But even just the BPA or what, you know, the MPFs, that's impossible. But there might be a Home Depot near you. Yeah, that's a vibe. That's a rad vibe for sure.

So did you say you shot MindBody Spirit on a 6K? Yeah, 6K Pro. No shit. Yeah. So we didn't want a big camera because we wanted the flexibility of, um first off it's low budget right um i really like the images images images out of black magic's really like the 6k pro insanely gradable yeah it's really nice we shot 6k raw which wasn't even that large to samsung one terabyte SSD so super easy um and we knew that we were going to have moments

where the camera like falls over and then gets picked up by the character which is you know them holding on to the bottom of like on a handle but it gives it the idea yeah um we wanted something with a larger format or a larger sensor size but not full frame we wanted super 35 because the lenses that we used is were um we use a to kina 11 to 20 for most of it those tokinas are nice great lens it's super nice and we didn't go cinema we went stills oh no shit just because it's like we're never really going off of marks we don't have any crazy pulls especially with

you know we're shooting 2A a lot of it shot on 11 millimeter which was fun yeah and then we had a Sigma 18 to 35 in my opinion the best lens probably top five lenses ever made it's amazing

I cannot find a reason to not use that if that's the focal length range I need it's beautiful I love the look of Sigma's. I love the look of that lens specifically. It's so small.

It's really inexpensive. It's really fast. But we use the Sigma only a few times because most of it we want to have that deeper depth of field. We want to look like a YouTube video, but we wanted like elevated YouTube, YouTuber kind of vibe. And a lot of that play was like with our lighting. And then we knew we were going to use the RS2 a lot, the gimbal. For motion control stuff, for some, we have those 360 pans in the movie. And then we had like traditional gimbal of it actually moving around.

So we wanted something that could sort of like fit on all these little small, fast, really fast tools. And the 6K was like the FX3. I forget if it was out at that time. This is 2021 end of 2021. So maybe it was actually. But I was just so comfortable with the black magics. Well, but also it took Oren to fucking shoot the creator on it before anyone. Oh, real camera, you know.

I love, dude, our, Aaron's a buddy of mine. He's, dude, he's, we met on these, it was either Revlon or L'Orielle commercials in New York back in, like, 2014 or 2015. And it's so exciting to see his career explode because he's so, he really deserves it. He's such a talented cinematographer and a really nice person. I had him on the podcast like four months ago, something like that. Oh, sick. I taught a class at Cornish College here in Seattle, a summer program last summer, and I had him zoom in and talk to the students.

It was so fun. It was really, really fun. But yeah, the FX3 is, you know, I'm shooting with it now. It's great bump for Sony. Yeah. And the movie looks stunning. It looks so good. he he uh you mean creator yeah yeah he he told me a trick because like because i was i've like i've seen

the sony footage out of that camera the sony footage i've seen the footage out of that camera and uh i was like did it doesn't like what did you guys do in the grade to make to change this up because it doesn't look like what i'm used to seeing and he said that there was like a few things that they did to like they i think they had like a sick colorist on it I can't remember who it was. But he said one thing they did is they like just squeezed everything. I've started doing this on literally everything I do now is like they squeezed it. Do you use resolve it all?

A tiny bit. So I don't know if this is what they did, but this is how I interpreted what he said and it looks good. So whether or not it's the same thing or not, whatever. But basically I take the color warper and I just move everything into ostensibly cyan and skin. So like you take any image and then you color warper, grab all the edges and just push them so that the vector scope shows skin tones and cyan. And then if you drop that down to like 30% intensity or whatever, node opacity or whatever,

it just kind of pulls all the colors ever so slightly more squeezed more like film tends to do. Interesting. You know how film doesn't show, like digital will show you every little nuanced little color in everything. And film is a little more, you know, what am I trying to say like gentle skin tones will just kind of become one thing

versus balachi so yeah that was one little trick I learned from that film that I was like oh I've started doing that on fucking everything because it always looks good I love that that's such a nice hack there's so much that you can do it's like really unique right it's like you're always you're shooting digital to replicate film for a lot of instances which is you know

the irony there is so potent But digital, you know, it's just insane how much information you're getting with digital and how you can manipulate an image just so much. Yeah. I did want to ask about the, like I told you earlier, I'll just jump around a lot. So you'd mention the lighting. I did want to ask about mind, body, spirit. How did you justify is not the right word, but like make the decision on.

on where the line was between your lighting and the character's lighting, because for people who don't know, there's a found footage movie. So, ostensibly, it's all supposed to be her doing. So, like, where did you draw the line between you being the filmmaker and her being the filmmaker? Yeah, great question.

So we made a few decisions of, you know, you can call this found footage. And then what is the other genre? that's like now like sort of percolating in the heart subspace. It's like, I forget what it is. But we wanted to blend this line of like, okay, is someone like who uploaded this footage? That was my other question.

No, yeah. Because there's ads in the internet, quote unquote ads. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the ads are really fun. But for her lighting, we never show any like actual dietic lighting units in it, right? We don't ever show the ring light hanging out. when the camera moves around. So in those instances in the film, it's like we knew in the beginning,

we wanted to make it look more like a YouTuber, lights it like flatter lighting, lighting that's within the world that she sets up. And by the end, we want it to be more natural light, way moodier. Way more contrasted. Yeah, yeah. And throughout the film, it's like, okay,

the first shot that we set up, and we shot the film almost totally sequentially, it was like, okay, let's make. make this like a little flatter. Let's make this look like a YouTuber lights it. And a lot of the decisions with my Gaffer and I is thinking like in the moment, but also how are we going to change it later on and down the line? And we had a whole lighting plan throughout the whole film.

But obviously, you know, your plan always lights on fire and you always have to sort of figure it out. But always thinking about, okay, we want this like a little bit flatter. Our ratio is, isn't, you know, our shadows aren't that deep. if not at all. And then we have moments of, you know, we go from that moment into this room that an on-camera light turns on, right? Which I love whenever I get to use an on-camera light

and the flat lighting and, you know, you put a little bit of black wrap on and make that little vignette. Like, I don't know, I just, I love that. Especially for horror. Yeah, yeah. It's just like a, you can hear it's like, like you can hear it turn on.

And, like, that stuff is so fun to me. And then we have, like, the attic scenes and trying to figure out, like, oh, like, is the attic lit by, like, a space light, not space light, sorry, a skylight, or is it the on-camera light? So making those decisions and just trying to figure out, okay, how do we want to, like, hide the horror? And a lot of what Matt and Alex wanted were these empty door frames, like, throughout the shooting, they're like, oh, like, we want this frame to be empty. Empty door frame, empty door frame. And I was like, okay, like, sure, yeah, I see it. And it's always interesting when you're, like, on set when you shoot something versus when you see the finished product. Just because, like, so much time has passed that you, like, forget all those, like, details of actually shooting it.

And I remember seeing on the big screen being like, ooh, those empty door frames. Well, I literally, the reason I just got a little geeked out was because I wrote down, like, you guys did a great job. I literally wrote doors, chairs, et cetera, because there's just. all these little things, you know, especially like in one instance, she's going up into the attic and you see the lady, like, behind the stairs, you didn't see that bitch? Like, but there's so many little things.

And like an open door frame for horror is such a great tool. Because it's like that something's going to come out of there. And if it doesn't, it's scarier. And that's like, when is it going to come out of there? Yeah, and building that tension for like a long period of time. And then finally having that payoff is so fun and working within a genre of horror, it's like,

horror is so interesting because you know, like, people who are going to be watching this are fans of horror. Right. This isn't necessarily a movie for like,

like, like, I don't know, like an, not traditional audience, but it's not a movie for everybody, right?

But for horror fans that know horror that love horror, I think this is a really fun movie. And it's always fun to play within genres, right? And then to tweak, you know,

like build the rules so then you can break them kind of vibe and like matt and alex directors of the film and i were all horror fans it's like it's so fun to to like reference horror and and like your onset being like oh like it's feeling like this movie or we want to channel this movie and we're all movie lovers so it's it's so fun just to have that dialogue and that communication together yeah the uh horror is one of those unique genres I'm not necessarily a horror fan, but it's one of those unique genres where

I feel like the reason it's so successful, especially now, is because it feels like, you know what? The closest thing is like Marvel films in that the people who go to see those movies know the formula and they want to, you know,

and subversion of that formula or playing to it or whatever is like important like superhero films. Like horror is the same objective, not objectively, subjectively like the same movie every time you know it you know what's going to happen so it's like if you both are speaking the exact same language the filmmaker in the audience you get to have a lot of fun in that space in the middle it's and like in film horror like elevator horror and you can really credit that to a 24 and like you know i remember like the babadook which is not a 24 coming

out like what was that 2013 it was such a fun call back to like like the gold olden age of Hollywood in 1970s horror and like you see like the exorcists and uh oh rip don't know sutherland what is don't look now is it don't look now don't look bad that is a film yeah yeah um and the omen and like all these movies like it's so fun to like have the slasher gratuitous violence films sort of like subside and then using horror as a vessel to communicate human emotions like it follows and her audience which is the goat um and i don't know it's it's it's really exciting it's really exciting to be like a horror fan and a horror filmmaker because there's just so much more uh opportunity yeah 100 percent there's yeah and i love genre films in general

and uh i think that is the fun part of genre is like because because there is a framework it makes it, I think, more fun than starting from scratch. You know, the classic thing of, like, limitations make your job almost easier. Like, what Adam Savage says, like, anytime your limitation is put on you, it's like hacking a limb off your decision tree, that's easier, you know, versus like, here's a blank page, make something. Like, what do I do here? It's overwhelming.

Yeah. Yeah, it is nice to have barriers or just bumpers. like, I guess you could say like bowling, right? It's like, it's nice to have parameters that you work within because, yeah, limitations always breed creativity, always, always, always, always. Yeah. Well, and you admit, you mentioned hereditary. This film definitely has some like hereditary kind of vibes to it, for sure.

Yeah, no doubt. Family trauma. Hereditary was a huge reference for us in making the film. So it was fun to see, like, reviews come out and people comparing it. to hereditary because that was fun. I was like, oh, this is, you know, it makes you feel like you've done your job. And Hereditary is just a wonderful film.

It's not even a wonderful horror film, right? Or it is, but it's more than that. And I think having that transcendence is so exciting to see. And, you know, there's a lot of themes that are similar with inherited family trauma. and just like that movie's so cool like these like weird frames that make you feel like you're in a miniature and like that stuff is so fun and motivated

and so exciting to watch and with mind-body spirit it was so unique because it was like oh we get to like make this look whatever we want it to look like like we kind of don't want this to look like a movie there are some frames that we're like let's make this a little more cinematic in the respect of like our lighting is telling the story we have deeper shadows uh our we're having fun with our dutch angles as if like she threw

the camera over and it's so freeing to be like there's not this really stringent idea of where the camera is how it's turned on who's sort of recording you know we never really have her like beep like for record and walk back and hi there how are you and then hit the cut budding it was like it was very freeing just to be like who cares like like our audience is so unbelievably aware of what the genre is screen life what um youtube videos look like searchers or whatever not yeah what was it searching searching searching oh great Love that movie. Really good movie.

Really good movie. But just like searching, we're surrounded by media, right? It's not just CCTV cameras, but screen here, camera there, everywhere. We're totally surrounded by it for better or for worse. And thinking about our audience and being like, they're smart. Like, no one's going to care who really turns us on. And I think having that ambiguous nature also makes it more voyeuristic. Yeah.

I'll be like, who is watching on you right now? Is it her recording herself? Is the camera turning on randomly? Is it the spirit of Rasha that's possessing the camera and watching her? Is it this person watching this video on like the dark web? Like, where is it? And having fun with that perspective, I think was just like, it was really flexible and really exciting for us to have those conversations on set and use that as motivation of,

oh, is the camera toppled over a little bit? Is the camera more head on? Like, where is the camera and why? Yeah, I actually did want to ask about that because at one point, I think I wrote down spooky drunk, steady cam up. Yes. Like, so I wanted to, I don't know if you guys actually like hammered this down, but I was wondering, what is the motivation for the spirit to record all this?

And like, why does it, like, why does it care that it's recorded? Hmm, I love that. I think to put it simply is like the torturing. It's like this spirit is slowly possessing this character of Anya. And I think it's malicious. It's not, it is really devious. It enjoys watching this person succumb to these nightmares and this person, yeah, for lack of a better word, being tortured. And I think it has this insidious nature to it all.

and yeah I love I love that question so much because then as a filmmaker and specifically a cinematographer and operating the camera I'm like oh this is fun I'm not this omnipotent being right now I'm actually playing the character of the spirit of the ghost of this and and how would I move and what would I look at and and where would I go was really fun and it was like I was like oh I'm playing a character right now. And, you know, I felt like an actor, which was really, uh, it was really, really fun. Those, those moments were a blast. Yeah. Because it does, like, give you the feeling of like, oh, this person, it makes total sense. You said malicious. Because a lot of those, like, uh, ghostly camera chain, uh, framing changes do feel like,

fuck you. Like, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. You know, it's, it, it, it feels joyful in the fact that it's going to mess with this character. A hundred percent. And I think that's like, there's this really wonderful, well, just this connecting moment of when I was with Sarah who plays Anya. She did great, by the way. She's perfect, perfect casting.

Sarah is amazing and such a pleasant person to work with and so talented. And I don't know if we ever needed to do a second take because of her. Like she was so, oh, she's amazing. Just such a wonderful, talented artist and so cool with all of our other endeavors of like, dance and choreography and just such a, you know, vibrant person to be around. But there's a moment where, like, we're in between takes and the two of us are like, I'm like behind the camera, she's in front and we're like going through a rehearsal. Everyone's like bustling around and the two of us just have this moment of looking at each other

and be like, this is really sad. Like, we both have so much empathy for this character because she's just like, we know where it's going and it's not good and it's, it's like pitiful. And it's, it's, it's, it's, uh, and I think that's what we, we're like always with the film and with Matt and Alex, it's like, we're trying to tow this line of like having sympathy for this character, but also like this cringiness with this character of like trying to be someone that she's not. Um, and then having a lot of like, fuck you moments.

Yeah. of like like and like it's not just like a fuck you to the I don't think it's ever like really a fuck you to the audience it's like kind of like a fuck you to like the influencer mentality it's a fuck you to um this like terrible spirit but it's also like this fun like fuck you to like let's just see where this um if we pull the string where does it go and and how far down this rabble whole literally at one point yeah the string yeah was that the cleansing or yeah I think that is the second the second one yeah she does the breathing and then the string yeah yeah um which uh yeah that's that one's gross that one is pretty gross uh i do i did i did actually want to ask because you know that that leads to the question of like vFX and stuff but there's uh obviously there's like a pretty um extensive like split comp scene uh which i think if you many right yeah yeah where they're all running around and whatnot i'm trying to be ever so slightly nebulous just in case people haven't seen it.

But at one point, I did want to know if this was, I hate to say it, but if this got away for you or if this was like intentional, because I found it spooky, even if it wasn't intentional. Because during towards, I was looking at the light, you know, obviously I'm watching this from a cinematography perspective. So I do want to get into the lighting of like that main room because obviously changes all the time and yada yada. But at one point, she's, I think it's when she's like chanting at one point. There is a, towards the beginning, there's like a reflection of someone in the floor. Yeah.

Was that intentional or did you chop someone out? Well, it's super intentional. It's, but yeah, it's a composite. So like we shoot her, don't move the camera, they clear out. We have our actor go in and then we just take that out. And so it's just what's left is the reflection in the wood. It's like the sheet of the wood. And then we have that, that.

And that was like, you know, it was very much so like we thought about having that during and pre-pro with the shotless and being like, I think this actually will work and then getting on set and be like, oh, this is like so much easier than we thought. Like it didn't really require that much of a lighting change. It wasn't like we had to do a special as just backlit, the angle of the camera and finding that to figure out the very beginning of the shot and then finding that sheen and then just letting it sort of like roll through. Got it. Because what happened was, you know, I'd be taking notes when I'm watching. And so like I got the smallest note card. That's so rad. What I have found is this?

What is this? The Rodea dot pad number 12 is the perfect amount of notes for a one hour conversation. If I fill this up, I know I've got a full. If I've only got half of it, I got it, I really got a vamp. But yeah. But what was happening was so I was like, I looked down to write something. And then I look up and I just see the reflection go back into the stairwell. And I went, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

And I had to, like, rewind it. And I found that happening a lot in the film where, like, I'd look up and there was just something in the corner. And I went, wait, hold on. And I'd have to, like, obviously, you should be paying attention when you're watching a movie. But you guys did a good job of, like, hiding these little moments in there that aren't necessarily, they don't have attention brought to them, but are just there enough to be spooky and effective and interesting. Yeah, and we thought about, again, we thought about our audience for this. It's like, we want to give people these. like literal easter eggs these subtle like you know one person notices it but the other person doesn't so

it's like did you see that they're like what are you talking about and like having those like little like moments we have throughout like the entire film and sprinkled through and it just causes that eerieness and and man and Alex were so smart with with where they placed it how they placed it and what they didn't place as well it's like you know looking at the door and for him you don't see anything but then you've returned to it because a lot of this film is like returning to locations right right It, like, the beauty of the production of it all was that we loaded in one day, shot, and then loaded out the last day. So there was no, like, big company moves. And we had a huge room that we could stage all G&E and camera and production and costumes.

And we never had to shoot in there or move it, which was, oh, my gosh. Dream. Yeah, it was like a studio, right? And it was like, and then, like, running around the house. But always thinking about, okay, we're shooting this location. And there is one main location that we're in and how do we want this to evolve and how do we want this to change, whether it's the lighting or having like in the sheen of the floor, having a shadow appear and then disappear and thinking about that holistically throughout every single scene and what have we shot already and what are we shooting right now and what are we going to shoot in the future. Yeah. The, yeah, the production design in general.

I mean, you got a great house. But I did want to know about that main room, I guess specifically. but in general like what were what was your like lighting package and how were you approaching control in that main room because that main room is just all windows yeah it's like what you know were you were you just going with the sun and and punching from like the roof or something or like how are you setting up that that main room as you went through the film totally uh we had um we just had an m18 on the outside and that sun the sun was backlit for a few hours each day so we would really shoot scenes with the sun coming in,

and then without the sun, we would use the M18. And the first day, we recognized that the windows were blowing out pretty substantially, and we eventually NDD the windows, you know, which obviously, you know, old school style. And then the M18 had enough punch,

just like sort of even pushing through those NDs, which was really nice. And then on the inside, we used, I think, like an aperture 300, sometimes with the soft box, sometimes nothing on the inside other than like negative fill or just passive fill

so we were always sort of playing with it the tricky part was when we did the 360 pans we have to basically like hide a light on the top like bite it with a cartilini and then hide a light on the top of like a door

that was open even though it was like I wish it would be on the other side it was like okay I'll compromise and put it on this side but always trying to, um, uh, like, yeah, it was fun to be like, okay, this setup, we can do stands and this is really easy.

And other ones, we have to really be flexible with, with where we are. Um, and then subtly changing our focal length as well of like being wider and closer or more telephoto, which is literally like, like, three or four difference like from 11 millimeter to like a 16 millimeter and then pushing in or pulling out depending on our focal length yeah um so it was your lighting package was pretty small then yeah we had oh yeah we had these like mole richardson LED lights that were just like terrible but they were really inexpensive we had an m18 i didn't know they made LEDs oh back in the day they did they made this one cool one called a tenor, which was

this enormous LED. We did not have it on this shoot, but they had like smaller LEDs. So it was basically think of like a 650 Mul Richardson, but instead of the maroon color, it's black and it's LED and it's green

and it flickers really badly if you dim it down on, it's like a built-in squeezer. So those lights were pretty interesting. And then we have the aperture 300s. which are great lights. And then we had this aperture. It wasn't an MC,

but it was like one of their older for the on-camera light. And then we had some tubes, I think, at one point. Everyone's got the tubes. You always have the tubes. Oh, always. Like, I don't leave the house without, like, a tube light, a six-by-six ultra-bounce, just rag that I always keep in my kit.

What else do I always bring? I have an MC Pro that I always bring now, which is wonderful. and the oh yeah and then the B7 Cs those are great lights too helpful yeah super helpful um and then yeah so tiny lighting package so Gaffer key grip um trying to think anything else off the top of my head but yeah super super super small great work with that limited of a kit because I would have guessed you were like really you know popping stuff everywhere and shaping the hell out of it but I guess it goes to show that it's always like, you know, the Gordon Willis thing of like

one light, just to have one. Thank you for the compliment. It's a great compliment to hear. And yeah, it's, yeah, you know this. The longer you go, it's like the less lights that you're putting up, the more shaping that you're doing. And I shoot a lot of documentary as well. So I like to light fast and I like to not overthink it too much and think it holistically

and, like, what is actually realistic here? And, you know, it's like, you can't always have a 4K outside. You can never have an 18K, or at least I can never have an 18K outside. You know what I mean? Yeah. But, you know, lights now are, like, insane. Like, the aperture, 1,200, it's like, and now they have the 2,400. It's like, it's crazy.

Oh, for this, we really, it was the first thing to go budget-wise, but we really wanted to play with the, um, the CTRL light bridge CTRLS CRLS CRLS CTRL is Teradeck yeah we really wanted to play with the light bridge but you know as your budget

just like slashed right away it's so funny because I I've gotten to know those guys a little bit because of trade shows they're owned by Matthews now which has made them a lot more accessible back when they were alone it was like every when they first announced

me and everyone I knew was like that looks cool can we try that and it was basically like no they just don't have them they did no one had them you couldn't rent them and they didn't seem interested in getting them to you I remember this was not CRLS's fault but I remember they were hooked up I won't say who it was but they were hooked up with another company that had an office near me and I was and again I'm I didn't never told you this I um right for pro video coalition so I do like oh very cool stuff like that and so I wanted to review these reflectors so they're like oh we have a where we have a office in Santa Monica you should go down there so I was like okay cool this guy had like a lighting company that he was like attached to CRLS with

and he spent like three hours telling me stories about his cool lighting company and showing me his lights and at the end of it I was like so can I borrow like a kit to review and he goes Oh, no. Great. Thanks, bud. But yeah, now they're, now they're with Matthews, and it's pretty easy to get a hold of some. But they do, it's fascinating how much we're all,

every DP, I know, like, really wants to test them out if they haven't used them. And it's like, we've, we've had reflectors before. Why are we suddenly really excited about these? Like, what is it in our brain that just goes, oh, yeah, I want a bunch of little ones. Because they have baby pin attachments. And you can, like, put it on it.

rather than like, you know, gaff taping a pigeon plate on and then, you know, the DIY. But, and it's cool. Like, it's really cool. The one, like, one's like, like, it, like, actually is a different quality of light. And it's like, it looks real. And you're like, what is going on here? This is such a crazy. And it makes so much sense because, you know, you're backing the light up.

But really, you're not. So you're like, you don't have light loss, but you do have like the inverse square law in your favor and it's it's like whoa this is fascinating yeah the uh i think it also goes to show that we all secretly do like hard light and this soft light thing is new even though it's like 20 years old but 20 30 years old but still i know you can't keynote came out where we were all just like soft forever yeah it's it's no it's it's it's so unique because like especially with narrative it's it's it's like your quality of light but also like how do you make this look actually realistic or how do you cater this to your story like do you want it to

look artificial do you want it to be natural and what does natural light actually look like and you know natural light isn't always a character with this beauty light on their face illuminating them all the time like that doesn't really exist in the real world you get those moments which i think is like what you're always trying to recreate with narrative it's like you're finding that moment where it's like actually evoking an emotion visually and really playing those internal emotions

externally. And it's so different than documentary we're like, all right, let's just rip this light or now it's like I find myself like so frequently with documentaries and being like let's just find the moments rather than like trying to like light it super hard. or possibly you just turn off lights. And then it's like, you know, your sensor is so sensitive to light now

with modern day digital cameras that you can really get away with a lot. Even like a 2-8, like you're not even like having to open up all the way or with Zoom as you are in that respect. But yeah, I want to start shooting documentaries more with primes. Like I just want to do the commitment because whenever I review my footage on the Zoom, I'm like, like you dog that one. Like that's so unnecessary. Well, and I think, so I will say all the documentary DPs I've interviewed have all almost exclusively shot on primes.

And these are all usually like award winning films. But I think personally, when you have a Zoom in a dock situation or even like just event coverage, anything like that, you, because you're trying to anticipate so much, you, you're thinking about Zoom too much. You're like constantly worried about whether or not your frame is good. Whereas if you're on a prime, all you got to worry about is focus and then just physically moving, which is a little more, you're like, you can feel where you're supposed to be. But if you have a Zoom, you're like checking it out. You're like, is that good? Is that good? Is that good?

Whereas like, otherwise, if it's a prime, you just kind of instinctually move into the right spot, in my opinion. No. And I think this goes back to what we were talking about earlier. It's like limitations, like add that limitation on. And I've tried to like use a Zoom as if it's a prime in docs. I've used Zooms in like commercial and narrative and use it as, you know, a prime, which makes sense. But in Doc space, you're just like, I think there's just like subconscious decision that you make that you know that you can actually change your focal length right now. I think that's different when it's a prime and you're like, I can't. I cannot change this. And so what am I going to do now? What am I going to think about now? Yeah, it hacks a branch off the decision tree. You don't have to think about it.

It's gone. I love that. Yeah, I want to start doing that more frequently. Or just like, yeah, I think like limit, yeah, limiting gear always like, oh, you know, let's get another light in here. That's the death of you. That's going to be another 30 minutes. And then you realize you don't want it. you know what terrible i always it's like always like thinking about letting communicating with

my gaffers and key grips it's like this is like what i know we're going to need this is what i have no idea about can you help me and then like humor me with this it might be a bad idea but let let's see and oftentimes uh oftentimes it might work but it's always like clear communication right it's like it's like verbally communicating and doing the prep beforehand with your team and, like, giving them the idea so that you're both on the same page. You're both working in the same brain space rather than, like, dictating or, yeah, just having clear communication so that you're just, like, working together, honestly. Yeah. Was there anything on mind-body spirit that, like, you learned? I feel like every project

you end up learning something or failing, and that's also a lesson. Oh, dude, learned so much I when I when originally mad and Alex approached me about found footage I was like like okay and it turned out to be so creative and so much fun uh I learned

for sure about like light fall off and thinking about like oh like you can play more in the shadows than than you think you can what else did I learn yeah dude just a team effort of like when you have like a great crew like a lot of this is because of the costume and production design

and the art department and it's like me's on send like what's in the frame like it just like i know i knew this already but just hammers it in of being like oh my gosh this is like it's just so undeniably important that i think it is you know it's such a large part of cinematography is that collaboration with other departments and what's in your frame rather than just lighting and the gear and and also like yeah it's like you can shoot narrative projects with like untraditional tools like a photo zoom and um like you don't need the biggest best gear to really like take it home you just need really good smart dedicated people like our colorist like oh my gosh i love the first pass i was like oh this looks so good

like that's the rough draft calm down yeah it was like i was like this is so sick and just like you know it's um and mind body spirit was such a wonderful project it was like we've worked i don't think we ever went over 10 hour days it was like a like the shot list was so specific and thought out that it was a breeze to shoot and on the last day everyone's like looking around and be like oh my gosh this was so much fun and like we don't want to to end and it's like you know i think everybody every filmmaker has felt that um feeling at the end of our project and not just like trauma bonded but like actually being like this was a pleasant experience right i think i think making a film and making it pleasantly does exist and

like i think one of the pitfalls is trying to fit a one million budget in a hundred thousand right and you're screwed you're just you're just never going to have fun with anything and your product i think isn't going to be great but i think that process of making the filmmaking process enjoyable and respectful for people in their time and and realistic it does show in the end of the day in the film and i think that's one of the biggest things that i learned is like wow the process is so important in all of this it is like it is like this foundation that allows you to think creatively on set. And when you're avoiding stress,

like stress is like just like the death of creativity in my opinion. Because you just, you know, you're in a fight or flight response. So that was one of the big lessons from mind and bi-spirit, which was, you know, try to make it fun. Think about making it fun, having intention of making it fun. Yeah.

Well, and I imagine too, like to your point about stress and all that is like having one location that everyone is operating out of has got to make getting into that flow state so much easier. You just show up to work. You know, instead of like the worst thing in the world is when they go, oh, we have four company moves today. You're just like, ah, fuck. Like, none of that's going to be fun. It's not going to be fun. It's going to be so challenging.

And you don't have any, you don't have the crew to support that. Yeah. And, you know, I get it. I always understand a producer's role in production. like that it should is so hard like it is so hard to mitigate corraling that many people your budget your constraints everybody has an opinion like it's so easy to be a salty crew member it's like too easy i mean like oh screw this producer when the reality is like that producer's employing you and it's like you know don't bite the hand that

feeds you and there is an extent to that right it's like you know don't be malicious and predatory in your practices and how you work with other people there is that feeling you know instances where that's very valid but i think it's just like i don't know i i really love the idea of holistic filmmaking of not being like this is my department but being like well we actually don't need this light like it would be nice to have but can we take that budget and put it into maybe helping another department where where there's really services craft services Yeah. And I think it's, yeah, and make sure you like treat your crew and respect your crew and listen to your crew too. Yeah. I did want to ask, I know we're about to be on at a time here,

but I did want to ask like, you know, not just this film, but the commercials you've shot and all that. Like how do you go about being a department head? Like how you mentioned like treating everyone with respect and all that, that aside. Like how, what are some ways that you keep everyone working the way that you want and doing what you need and how do you run run your department specifically i think a ton of his prep and realistic expectations and being like this is going to just like making sure that when you hire people that you're really clear with your communication your crew members that you're working with of this is going to be the challenging moments this is where i think it's going to be easier this is where i need help with and this is

and this is where I think like, you know, really focusing on that collaboration. And then also like protecting your crew. Like if someone is bringing something up to your intention, like not being afraid to talk to a producer about that and level with them and finding appropriate times to talk to them about it. And doing that in a respectful way.

Again, it's like everybody's stressed all the time. And you have to think about other people's perspective. Yeah, and just the idea of like realistic expectations being like, you know, this is what we want to do. This is probably the way it's going to turn out. And, you know, in these instances, like, it would be really fun if we pushed for something like this. And how do you think we could make it happen and just having those, like that open dialogue and prep so that everyone's on the same page. So that when you're out in the real world, it's not like you're trying to like, you know, you're not trying to like, you're not. trying to manage somebody's perspective where they thought it was going to be one thing,

but it's a totally different other thing. And also, like, letting them know if it's going to be a shit show or not. I mean, like, yo, this is like, I do not have the information. I'm frustrated about it. That's not necessarily an excuse, but I'm going to try my hardest to delineate this information to you so that it makes your job easier too. Yeah, the one I've had to pull a few times is like, hey, man, I got hired on this. I need help.

they're offering you this. I'm going to give you an extra 300 out of mine because this is going to suck. Thank you for being here. Yeah. No, seriously. And I think it's also like, you know, yeah, it's like you brought this up.

Like every single shoot I've ever done, I always learn something new from. I think that's why it's like such a unique industry and career. It's like you're always learning. You're always in different situations. And sometimes you're learning things that don't even have to do with filmmaking whatsoever just like person-to-person relationships or how to communicate effectively or again failure is always the best learning experiences it's painful but it's always the best and i think um

yeah and oh yeah always like blowing your rate and taking those funds and injecting it into something else and you know i think people need to be paid properly and like you know you can't pay someone 250 dollars if they're working 16 hours like that like yo I think we actually could do 10 hour days but it would be just be a little different and it would be so nice well and I imagine too

just for your guys there's only like four locations in your guy in that in mind body spirit so it's probably a little bit easier to like calm down like think about it talk to everyone bounce ideas and go, all right, that's good, then just roll it.

You know, because sometimes it's just like one shot, you know, like one camera setup. You know, you go, okay, run that. It was one. Yeah, and sometimes it was literally that of being like, whoa, this is so easy right now. Like, one of my four frames is like, I think it's one light. We close these sheer curtains, and the whole room is so, like, warm. It's crazy warm because of the sheer curtains, the angle of the sun, the time of day. and then we added, I think, like, maybe just return or maybe just, like, one light.

Oh, dude, have you ever, do you know the Falcon Eyes light? Yeah. Oh, yeah. The Matt? Yeah, I always, Falconize is a big one, huge one for me. I'm always running around with the Falcon Eyes. I've slowly upgraded to an aperture, what is it, the F-22. But the Falcon Eyes is, is an amazing light.

I don't leave home without that either. But all that to say is like, in a moment like that, I was like, oh, my gosh, this is so, easy. It works for the story. It's exactly what we want. It's so fun for us. We're rolling on it. And then there's other times where it's like, oh, man, this is like a banana setup and it's going to take time. We had a wonderful first AD who was also a producer, Jesse. And, you know, I love first ADs. As much as they frustrate me, you know, and just in moments, at the end of the day, you're like, oh, I love, I love ADs because it's not. First AD and production designer are like your two best friends besides your your team yeah no honestly it's like you know everybody's like

the worst is doing uh being an ADP where you're the 80 and the DP and then it's like you know like it stinks when you like when you're shooting and you're like trying to move the train along and it's like it's not working out just sometimes lack of communication with people but um it's always nice not to be the bad guy. You're like, oh, this is great. I can be, I'm ready. I'm set up. I'm hanging out. Yeah. To your point about the Falconize, I have this Intelitech mega light cloth. Have you seen that? Oh, how are those? So they're rad. I mean, like the output's crazy and the spectral quality is excellent. Mine, like, blew up right when I plugged it in, which they were, they were like really confused. They're like, that's not a thing.

And I was like, I don't know what I must have done something or maybe it got bumped in transit or whatever. So I just sent it back. But I think that's a me problem because everyone I've spoken to, it has not done that. Like, just mine did that. So I think I did something terrible. But when it did work for that brief moment, it's just having a portable window. Yeah. It's awesome.

And, you know, you just and now they have a new version because mine's like the 2.0. Now they have a 3.0, which is RGB. it's got way more like you have like xy coordinates in the ballast the ballast is smaller like the new 0.3 or 3.0 version is like out of this world good that's so cool and it's like they have like different flavors right it's like they make like four by four and and can you combine them um no I mean they're basically I mean yeah but the but basically they are combined at the factory so they've got like the one by one they have a two by one a a, what's the math there, two by two.

And then the mega light cloth is technically a grid of two by three, but it comes out to like four, four feet by three and a half feet. Cool. Or four and a half feet by three feet, something like that. So again, it's literally just like a portable window. And if you don't use the case that it comes in and like the little, like if you tee bar it, basically, the whole thing fits in a backpack. That's crazy.

I love that. Yeah. I love that. It's, yeah, like that. idea of a portable windows like perfect yeah it's pretty it's pretty cool um well that absolutely flew by but uh i really appreciate you taking the time to to chat with me man yeah totally kenny i'm so so happy that we could do this this was wonderful frame and reference is an owlbot production it's produced and edited by me kennie mcmillan and distributed by pro video coalition if you'd like to

support the podcast directly you can do so on patreon by going to frame and rep pod dot com where you can get all the episodes and clicking the Patreon button. It's always appreciated, and as always, thanks for listening.