Frame & Reference Podcast - 157: "The Other, Gold" DP Ray Wongchinda

Episode Date: August 29, 2024

This week, Ray Wongchinda joins me on the program to talk about his work on the Tribeca Select film "The Other, Gold"! Visit https://www.frameandrefpod.com for everything F&R https://www.patreon.com/frameandrefpod Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coast's leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠⁠Filmtools.com⁠⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello, and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and you're listening to episode 157 with Ray Wong Chinda, DP of the Tribeca Select film, The Other, Gold. Enjoy. Well, since you've heard the podcast, you know, we always ask, are you watching anything right now? Are you into any shows or games, I suppose? Because now that NCAA football's out, pretty much everyone in their mom's playing that. No, no, I mean, I'm not. It's funny with video games.

I used to be into them a lot more, and then, like, I took a long break. And then, I mean, I was really far behind with video games for a while, but it was, I also knew that. It was kind of like video game industry is bigger than the entertainment, I mean, than film and television. And like when they, I basically, what got me back into it was Last of Us. So my page's had been telling me for the longest time, he was like, dude, Last of Us won and Last of Us 2 are incredible games. And so probably about six months before Last of Us released on TV, I bought a PS5 and I bought both games and I played through both. of them and then i played through last of us too like a couple times like and that that game is like three times as long as last of us one yeah but but you know this is all out of day but i just did it so

that i could i could kind of see i wanted to watch the show um you know knowing what the game was like so yeah i went through all that did you get the um because i got the i got like a launch PS5 and it came with like the 25 top games from the PS4 era and uh oh you didn't get that oh because last bus was in there you know I feel ripped off that's because I was selling everyone on that console

for the longest time I was like I don't I haven't I've been playing it for three years I don't think I've bought a single game wow okay because it was like no mine not a war was in there all that shit yeah mine did not come with with a whole package like that so damn wow any shows then Or movies It's just I feel like everything's TV now

Like yeah Like I really liked Mr. and Mrs. Smith But I know that that's been out for a little bit Yeah I Sugar I got

I got through that That was a really good show Yeah I just interviewed that TV the other day Yeah I know I saw that I watched I watched some of it And then like because I I'm sorry I listened to some of it

Because I listened to it in my car Yeah. And I still haven't gotten through the whole thing yet because I have to drive some more. Yeah. Yeah, I know. It's like an hour and a half every conversation. I'm always like, I know L.A. traffic's bad, but usually it's like 45 minutes. I try to, I just, a lot of times I Uber places because it's not the driving I don't like.

I just hate parking in L.A. Dude. So sometimes it's worth it for me to just take an Uber. And then the Uber costs as much as parking might of it anyways. Yep. And just like I am 100% same page. I will gladly take the lack of stress, you know, like wherever we're going, you know, just not even having to think about just being princessed over there and then the lack of

exactly of trying to find or like, you know, the producer, whoever will be like, all right, well, parking's pretty bad. So if you need, we can send someone to get you in your gear. And I'm like, no, I'll just Uber there. Just don't, let me 40 bucks. We'll call it a day. Yeah. Yeah, it's terrible.

I just got caught up in the whole. crowd strike IT The airlines and we were My wife and I we were flying Delta I was stuck in Minneapolis for a few days And then I had to give up on Delta Because they were telling me that they They couldn't even rebook my flight

Yeah It was crazy because we went to the airport and I gave in my luggage And it was like not 30 minutes later after I checked my luggage They told us that the flight was canceled So I went back to baggage and then they told me that they couldn't give me my baggage back. And they didn't know when they could. And then they couldn't rebook me on another flight. So it just like took a few days.

And then if I finally gave up and I took Spirit. Yeah. I got a flight on Spirit that had a layover in Vegas. And then in Vegas, the flight was delayed in Vegas. I was stuck in Vegas for a little bit, just trying to get home. I'm getting sent to Atlanta for a shoot. next week on Thursday

and they send me like the flight details and they're like all right does this look good and it's on Delta and I was like do you guys watch the news and they're like

we'll look at it again on Friday and I was like maybe look at Southwest like I don't know if we're supposed to be taking Delta to Atlanta right now yeah

yeah that's honestly that sounds like a nightmare I mean I when when I went to the airport to to check my bags, the guy who's taking my bags who worked for Delta, he was like, I don't know why anyone's even coming to the airport.

Like, no one should be trusting what the app or the internet, our system's say on the internet, if the flight is still on or not. Like, just don't even come. So as someone with like a background in computer science and shit, did you like, read what had happened and just start looking at everyone like, oh, we're hyper-fucked. This is not going to go well. Oh, that's funny. You do your research, eh? Yeah, no, I mean, I saw that it was an IT problem. It was taken down the machine.

So I pretty quickly figured we should get away from Delta, considering how they were working. But, yeah. I don't know. I think I was just, like, the hope was driving me, you know? Like, the guy was shaking his head as I was giving him our bags. You should not be giving me your bags. it says it's still on you know yeah that was that was a I think like it might have been fake but I think like Southwest had a joke that was like

you know our system is run off a Commodore 64 in our friend's basement like we're good come on in like we're on Unix yeah right what you know it's funny because we were talking about video games and like I used to play a semi professional counter strike like in high school

before it was cool, you know? And of course, my parents were very supportive, but they were basically like, you need to stop. If you want to be in movies, you should stop playing video games because that's just distracting. And it's like, fuck, I should have just stayed with video games. I would have been, I would have had so much more money if I was good enough. I mean, people

are getting full rights to college. Yeah. On East Sports scholarships and stuff. I mean, I mean, I guess I guess that's on a surprise because people are a guillionnaires just from playing esports. Yeah. But, yeah, I don't think I never would have known that. You know, my parents definitely discouraged me. Well, yeah, is that what like, because you didn't start, you started basically with photography in the art world, right, coming from like a more traditional science background.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Did they push you in that direction? um did my parents push me just being like engineering kind of or did that actually excite you yes there was a time i mean like i like i i love physics like i totally love physics i i loved engineering at the time uh computer science was exciting to me like i was a little like when i was a little kid my you know we always had my dad always had a computer and that was like and i he was teaching me how to program when i was

little kid and and I liked it I mean I I and I and I'd all day long even at home I'll just watch you know theoretical physics YouTube channel on those days space time baby yeah totally I love PBS space time um but my sister she also she worked in uh she was the artist in the family she was um she kind of introduced me to a lot of uh what it was like to not just live in the world of engineering in an Asian family. Did she work at Legacy or what shop was she at? She was, okay, so she started off. She started, when she got into movies, she worked in other areas and art for a while,

but when she got to movies, she was at Boss Film Digital Studios and Digital Domain. Got it. And then she got invited. My sister is quite a bit older than me, but she got invited to New Zealand when they were shooting Lord of the Rings to form Weta. So she would have been part of the initial team of Weta. But she at that time, she was like, I don't know, man, the film industry is so unstable. And she wanted to have kids, you know, kind of normal life. And she was just, I don't know if I can keep doing this film thing.

And she's like, but they're going to make Lord of the Rings, you know? And then so, but she was, she was like, no, I think, I think I want to try to have a family. I think I want to. And then, you know, she was dating. She was pretty serious with this guy at the time. And then she went to work for Mattel. That's cool. Mattel for a long time.

Like, she's a sculptor for Mattel. Right. Because she was doing models that. Correct. Yeah. She was doing a lot of model making. And, like, if you, like, she worked on a lot of big movies. She worked on a, like, Fifth Element and Starship Troopers and movies like that.

Armageddon, I think, was one of them. Like, if you look in the old Cinefax magazine, she's, you know, with Fifth Element, she's, she's in the model. You see pictures of her in the model shop working. I have that over here. Yeah. I'll have to look at this. Yeah. See her in there, yeah.

That's cool. Yeah. And, yeah, so she just, you know, I would go visit her on set, be like, oh, my God. this is, and I wasn't even into filmmaking at the time. It was just kind of like, I think it was my introduction to filmmaking in a way. It's totally helped me out as a DP as I've, like, as I was kind of, you know, starting out and climbing the ranks and trying to figure things out, I would give her a call and go like, we got this shot where it's supposed to look like we're shooting through a keyhole

and she's like, she's like, okay, tell the model makers to build it at this scale. you're going to be this sort of like and she just would give me all these tips and it would help me out a lot that's actually really cool yeah fifth element specifically is like that thing is might as well just be a prop maker's dream oh dude it was i mean she loved it she loved it it was like uh she even she has um a piece from the set it's like a little tower they gifted her uh that was in the movie um so she got to take some stuff home that's right What's she modeling at Mattel? Oh, gosh, she's all over the place.

She's done a lot of celebrity, like celebrity heads. Like when they make a doll for a celebrity, she'll be the one who sculpts the head. There's a lot of her not being able to tell me what she's worth. There's a lot of NDA stuff. I mean, she's one of the senior sculptors there. who's been there a long time, right? I don't know.

Yeah. Like you were saying, I imagine that being on some of those sets early on was pretty instructive for you as a DP just because you were able to see. Because I feel like that's some of the behind the scenes that we've lost with physical media not being as possible, although apparently it's coming back, which thank God. But the behind the scene stuff on a lot of Blu-rays isn't great. But I would always watch that to see like, where are they putting the lights? Like what, you know, for something that looks super natural, not super natural, but super

comma natural, a lot of times it takes a lot of lights and a lot of, you know, Negg and whatever. And I imagine being able to see that as a youth was probably pretty helpful. Yeah. Yeah. It made me realize how complicated photography could be and more about shaping light around objects. And I think there's something about seeing light shaped around something smaller in front of you

that helps you kind of understand it better than like if I were just to have walked onto a set that young and, you know, watched a season DP like erecting giant frames, you know, and just shaping the light around a scene. I don't know if it would have made as much sense to me than when I saw little miniatures version. you know because you can see the big picture a little bit it's like it's almost having like a god's eye view

of the landscape right and see like how lights being like shadows are being cast and stuff like that so I think that helps with with my intuition with shaping light sure what type of I guess I've never

I don't know if I've ever asked anyone this but like when you're lighting something small like a model pardon me you know because obviously I guess you're the physicist, you tell me. Obviously, you know,

soft light is just big relative to subject. So are the like when you're lighting a small model, even little lights real small, are you still able to achieve that? Or do they even want soft light with a model? I think it depends on how close you are to it. Yeah.

You know, a lot of times like a lot of times these models were used as kind of for what would essentially be like a wider shot. anyone's I don't think I think the closer you get to something the bigger they're gonna make it for detail sure of course yeah so then like the smaller stuff it's kind of like a wider shot and in wider shots I think there's kind of a tendency to to you can be a little bit more contrasty and not and not need the

light to like softly wrap right something is right like the subtlety of all that is a little bit different so yeah were you into a you know, those kind of like sci-fi-heavy not effects, but like world-building movies, or were you more into like kind of the more realistic drama type

stuff like that got you into filmmaking? It's the realistic drama stuff, I think. I mean, I had first time I saw Star Wars when I was a little kid I was like, holy crap, you know? I definitely

loved those old films and stuff and that got me excited but I think that the movies that made me like really like fall in love with the medium

as an art form or I call them I call them like movies where it's just a bunch of people talking to each other right you know it's just people people trying to figure themselves out

in their relationships with other people. I think one of the movies, like, so strangely it's pretty, but I was like, I think I saw the English patient and I was like, wow. It is like, like it's can be kind of a boring movie, but I remember like really like, I think Memento like really made me excited about that too. So that, that that isn't just a bunch of people talking to each other. There's a little bit more going on with that. But like, um, there's only a couple locations in that film. Like it's a for how Big of an impact that film had on, I feel like we're roughly the same age.

Like people in our generation, it is a relatively simple film. It's just constructed in a way that is, quote, unquote, not confusing, but elaborate. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's been a while since I've seen it. But, I mean, it's his whole, yeah, I think that movie really is just about how he plays with the guy's perception of time and everything. But yeah, I agree. I don't think there's much of what was the budget of that?

Maybe like $3 million or something. Yeah, it was probably pretty low. Because I think if I don't know Chris Nolan's like whole story, oh, the man loves his time movies. Yeah. And things within a thing, within a thing. That's just thing. But I think he did like following and then I think it was momentum like right after.

Yeah. Yeah, I think it was like, I could be wrong. But I remember reading an article and I think it went following was a slant. dance and he met Wally Fister and then he asked Wally Fister onto Memento and that's when they worked together what happened to Wally do you know if I feel like you're directing right like oh did he oh okay yeah he kind of he's kind of dropped the mic he was like all right I did much anything I could do here the band man residuals are uh keeping me afloat I'm good Those, I do, I feel like it's been talked about a lot, but there does seem to be something about those 90s, early 2000 films that sort of reflect the same spirit of like, not ingenuity necessarily, but like risk taking and stuff that was prevalent in the 70s that disappeared the second the superhero film showed up.

And now I feel like we're just starting to get those. again. And it's kind of exciting. You know, everything's always cyclical, but like I feel like now, like this summer especially has had a bunch of like, you know, not first time DP directors, but, uh, or, you know, indie directors basically getting handed like quiet place or, you know, anything like that and then and succeeding. I love it. Yeah. I, I mean, I think other people have probably talked about this, but it's, yeah, you, you feel that the money. is moving away from the temple stuff and they're taking note of a little bit of the 824 stuff that they're kind of pushing things in that direction taking some risks lending the art come back out yeah you the you had um two movies at tribecker right i did yeah were they both first-time directors or just uh the gold one i should have wrote down the titles that's correct yeah no i think that yeah

they're both first time directors i'm pretty sure this is david's first at least feature phone um that's from the but but one of them is a documentary so oh okay okay narrative one and the other one's a documentary gotcha yeah but yeah it's definitely sure so the other gold uh was the narrative film

uh it was in the u.s narrative competition there and yeah Shiree and David first time directors so how did you get involved we'll start with Shiree how'd you get involved with them and

you know did was that like a previous relationship or did or did they pull you out of like a crowd and go you're the one I wish well I mean it was it was really unusual like

back in when was it it was 2016 I was I was walking around LA and I found a driver's license on the floor and I went I was like that sucks and I put in my pocket my home and I found the person on Facebook and I messaged them and it was Shiree and she said okay I'll come and pick it up and then we met and she she told me she was an actor and I told her I was a DP and then that's that was it. She thanked me and she took her driver's license. And I think we kind of, you know,

we kind of followed each other on Facebook for a little bit. And then, I think there was like one time, like two years later, somebody was looking for DP and she had recommended me. Damn. But then like in, you know, I think it was in 2020, early 2020, she messaged me out of the blue and said, you know, we were still in lockdowns and pandemic. and she was like, yeah, I wrote this pandemic script. You want to read the script. I want to see if you want to shoot it. And I read the script.

And it was, there was a lot of, it was really relevant. And there's a lot of funny moments in it. And I mean, it was the pandemic, you know? Like, we weren't doing anything. So I was delighted to come on board, you know, and do something. I think when we started out, I don't know. I just thought of it more as like, okay, this is just something, something to do while we're, no one else can do any.

Get the reps in at least. Right, exactly. And then it just started, the movie just started really expanding. She, so she, and for people don't know, she, she wrote it, directed, it, co-directed it, was the lead actor in it. and produced it. And as a producer, she was bringing on, she had a lot of relationships with some great actors,

and she was bringing on some incredible people for the project. They weren't all on while we went. I think when we first started principal photography, but they eventually all came on board. She would just work, did it as a producer, and started making it all happen. First time, too. I never even made a short film.

Straight to Tribeca with you. Like into the U.S., into the competition. Yeah, is it? I mean, that has to be, at least on your part, the craziest job get, like finding someone's ID and it's like, now I have a job, that's, I don't, I can't imagine anyone has something that, like, surreptitious or not, a magical, I don't know what you want to call it. like random happenstance, you know, ending up well for you beyond just like making a friend. Yeah. It just totally reinforces like my view of this industry where it's like I, you know, I've done everything that I think I can to like try to make relationships and do what I can.

And then, you know, probably one of the one of the biggest projects I have is because I found someone's driver's license on the ground, you know? Yeah. Well, and I also think that the extension of that, which has been my theory for the longest time, is like networking is not going to events and trying to get people's business cards or whatever. Networking is just being nice and being places and being prepared. You know, like I've gotten more jobs hanging out with friends and meeting their friends at like a bar or whatever, you know, house party, whatever it may be more so than like. industry events or whatever. You know, like you go to Sinegear and meet people nine times,

20 times out of 10, you're not getting a gig off that, you know? Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's, I've, I've seen a number of instances where you sense that people are are choosing, they're willing to sacrifice, you know, a certain percentage of talent for a person that they would rather spend 18 hours a day on set. You know, to a certain degree, it has to be reasonable. You're not going to take a... Yeah, there's a threshold.

Yeah, there's a threshold. Did the, obviously, I wasn't able to see the movies because they're at Tribeca and everyone gets any, any festival, they get real tight about handing out screeners. But from what I read, the other gold takes place almost exclusively in one room. And I guess had a very, they said, a very, um, my dinner with entree type focused small in the sense of

a location and behavior element to it. Is that accurate? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well... Was that a strict inspiration or is that just someone typing like, it's kind of like that. Yeah, yeah. No, no, she actually gave me that as a reference

when she first handed me in the script. But I should say it isn't that the whole movie takes place and it's just kind of like the core of the movie a really critical part of the movie in a high percentage of the movie in terms of screen time does take place in this one apartment but but there are other elements you know we're outside a lot and and there's an amazing scene in a barber shop and like so so there are other places but there's just like this really important core part of the movie happens there

So it's more like panic room. Yeah, a little bit like that. Distribution of time or something like that. But I did also see that it was primarily like natural. I imagine it wasn't like a very high budget production, especially if someone's like producing acting, directing it on their own. So how were you able to approach that film to keep it looking,

you know, high quality above that threshold, as we said, without, you know, the resources that you might be handed on a sort of, I guess externally funded short or something to that effect So we

we leaned on natural light a lot and what we did have going for us is that we had a lot of flexibility with when we could schedule shoot days and when people there was a lot of people who really weren't doing much

because of the lockdowns and stuff So, you know, when you shoot with natural light, there's a lot of, I mean, we didn't go as far as like the revenant, you know, we're not shooting for like 15 minutes and then waiting, you know, a whole day to shoot another 15 minutes. But there are, you know, windows of time. And so we kind of schedule things around that and then spread out the shoot over multiple days for different, for different things with that. And there was, we grouped the days that we did. did need a G&E package. We grouped them very tightly and just have the awesomeest gaffer in the world. Chad Horel, I got to give you a shout out, man. I love that guy. And yeah, I mean, when you have an amazing team come in and everyone is like into the project because we don't have much else going on anyway.

You know, I think you can piece it together and get it done. You know, I wish we had more time. I do wish, you know, I had a G&E package, you know, just a case all the time. But, you know, I think when we did the exterior stuff, the directors were really open to, you know, waiting for overcast days. We wanted that look anyways. We wanted an overcast look outside because. There's something about like that kind of overcast look that just kind of feels like it's a gloomy day and you're sick at home. And it's like we wanted that kind of COVID sick feeling going on.

Not to mention just, you know, an overcast day is better for light a lot of times. Giant softbox. Yeah. Yeah. And we didn't have, you know, we couldn't, I couldn't throw out a hundred foot frame, you know, like, you know, for the talent. So we were waiting for overcast days. But we did a lot of scouting to look for locations where, because we saw it in downtown. LA. So we did a lot of scouting to find locations where I could use big black buildings

as negative fill. Right. And when we found these locations that had, you know, large, darker buildings in the right, in the right layout, they were, the directors are very open to blocking for kind of, you know, how we needed them to make that negative fill work. and stuff like that. So they were very accommodating. Yeah. So I guess that just brings up the thought, like how long was pre-production and what were some of the more unique challenges?

Because obviously, like you said, scouting for the proper light, but was there anything else that kind of like immediately jumped out to you in the script that you're like, okay, we need to hammer in on this? I mean, it was that my dinner with Andre kind of section where we're inside the apartment. I think anytime you're just kind of, you're in one location like that, it can get visually monotonous, you know? So we're just trying to figure out ways to keep it visually interesting, but still make it feel like part of the story, not distracting in any way.

The space that we used was rather large, and it had a pretty large external patio on it. So we managed to break. Like, she, Sherey kind of, like, knew that we needed to move around. So she kind of broke up the script so that we moved around the apartment in a way that really made sense for the story. Because when she first approached me with the script, she, you know, she was, so the setting is a pandemic, but it's not about the pandemic. It's about women relationships and friendships. And, you know, how difficult they can be. I think she might have even used the word fickle.

That's not my word is certainly. But it's about like an old relationship that her character had with her old friend, and they had a falling out. And when we're in this apartment in the movie, it's like the first time you had seen each other in like five years and they kind of you know at the beginning of the relationship it's a little tiptoe um you know they're very careful with each other and then as they get used to each other again they start to discuss you know their relationship why they fell apart and then it kind of moves into kind of a darker then they start getting into

like getting mad at each other um I guess I should have given a spoiler alert there, but like it has this interesting arc through all that. And so we had locked out those different stages of the relationship in different parts of the apartment that made sense. There's, you know, things physically separating them when they're kind of nervous around each other. And then as they get closer, you can see them, you know, moving into couch, like they're across from each other. And then they're on the same couch. And it's like, you just feel the intimacy building. and it kind of gave us motivation

to move around the apartment and the outside so you know it kept it visually interesting but it also fit the storyline you know the lost art of blocking yeah now when you say like we

pretty much leaned on natural light do you mean like just straight up we shot it as is or were there you know was there some modification going on I assume so the stuff at night that's when I had the geneating that's when that's when we were actually lighting it um but during the day yeah we use natural light pouring through windows uh we definitely blocked for the natural light in the light's very

directional it's coming through the windows so they were very open to um working with me so that we still had a lot of shape to it and and um and it fell bright so you weren't even like diffusing stuff or like neg or any bounce or anything like that you were just like raw dog in it essentially I yeah no no no we so there was there was use of negative fill and possibly some bounces but we didn't

have we didn't actually use any you know we didn't have giant HMI's outside right the window you know firing into frames and bouncing through or anything like that it was all just natural light and then it was about either

and honestly I don't even know how if we use any bounces I will I think we probably just egg filled so does working that light is that not not with that light I mean like you know well less resources I suppose is that freeing or was that a little scary because I get on the one hand you could you could just be like oh I don't have to do anything like I can just frame this up and it looks good or or was it kind of, you know, a little trepidious. I love natural light, man. I think, you know, the problem is, is it's not consistent. And there's certain times of the day when it looks way better than it does at other times. But, man, when it's, when you're in that window of time, when it looks good,

and I love it. I love it better than, I mean, it's very rare that, like, you, you know, that you can light when you, even when you have all the resources that you can light the way it can look if, you know, the way God makes it. Right, right. But it's just, yeah, I don't know. I get excited when a director, like there's times when I do have the resources and I kind of want to use natural light and then it turns into a thing where the director gets a little nervous because, you know, I don't know if the light's going to be consistent enough through

it. if it's something quick enough you know a lot of times I'll push for it I'm somewhat experienced colorists I've had to I think a lot of DPs nowadays you know and production doesn't have a budget right exactly

over the pandemic I became a real good colorist yeah exactly so like look I'm not gonna I'm not gonna call myself like you know I'm not handling huge films at Company 3 but like I I understand how how the footage can be pushed here and there and and I think it helps me in low budget situations

I know what I can get away with it with so so I think I do that sometimes anyways and on this movie you know it was we could we had all agreed that it you know not only would it work with the budget better but it was it you know the look was preferable you know just overcast exteriors and stuff and also we we kind of needed it because we had um we had a lot of uh we had some key scenes that had a lot of improv and um it was really important to shrey and david the two directors that that they we had a lot of freedom we gave a lot of freedom to the actors for that and then we we had decided to cross shoot uh for the improv scenes um and with that You know, it gets a little tricky if you have G&E structures up and around the tank.

So, and, you know, we weren't quite at a place where I could suspend large frames above them. So I think overcast days were, you know, we're kind of a necessity. But, you know, with that, it gave us a lot of freedom and gave the actors a lot of freedom to move around. and the camera operators a lot of freedom to find a nice frame. Well, it, I don't know why it just occurred to me, but you mentioned a few times that you were, you know, like planning for these overcast days,

but we live in Los Angeles. How did you plan for overcast days? I don't know what it was. It was at the time we were getting them. Like, we got lucky. I think they were shooting. It was, we were shooting during a little bit, during June alone, I think.

I guess the pass up until like last month, it was pretty crap here all the time. Yeah. Yeah, and you know, this year. I think it would be surprised who don't live in L.A. Like, it's not, it's not all palm trees and blue skies. Yeah. You get a lot of overcast days.

And then especially when you move closer to the ocean, you're going to get a lot of marine layer overcast days in the morning and stuff like that. Although we didn't shoot close to the ocean, it was really important to the director. that we didn't show the typical blue sunny skies, palm tree, L.A. They really wanted to show

Little Tokyo over Cassaday's. Yeah. Another side of L.A. Yeah, that whole Arts District, little Tokyo zone, is pretty neat. I live on the west side. I always find it hilarious. Like, I'll go into Burbank to go to, like,

film tools or something, and it's 90. And then the second I get back over the 10, And it's like straight back to Marine layer. And I'm like, how the way, what, where do we live? Yeah. Yeah, I live on the west side as well. It's like 10 degrees cooler. That's pretty nice.

All my friends live over there. Dude, have you, uh, this just occurs me, uh, have you been over to Century City much? Uh, not necessarily the mall, but to sit in there. I have, I mean, I've been there. Yeah. but I don't go there every day my gym is over there

and every time I go there is you have a nice gym I mean it's yes but it's not like it's not like an equinox it's you know it's just nice the the what do you want to call it

the workouts are nice like they're designed well but the gym it doesn't matter so Century City it's just it's fascinating because obviously you got the diehard tower there, but the whole city, like none of the buildings, it looks like downtown, if you like frame it right, and the light comes in and bounces in really interesting ways off

these buildings. But unlike downtown, none of the buildings have labels on them. Yeah. And every time I walk around there, I'm like, this is like a perfect like set. If you, if you only need like a couple blocks of city, like it looks like any downtown, like it's a nondescript downtown because nothing has a label on it. Yeah. And I'm always like, someone needs to shoot down here.

Like, CAA doesn't have a, does CAA have a label on the middle? They don't, right? Maybe on like the sign out front, but not on the building itself. It's a very like a corporate office area where it's like, unless you're looking at the front sign, everything is just a nondescript building. I always looked at Century City like it was it was all the rich people in Beverly Hills didn't want to go to downtown L.A. So they'd both, they were owned downtown L.A. yeah that's 100% sorry that was a side track on my part

as you've heard this podcast I can fucking go everywhere but um we're talking about the natural light thing I did want to ask about the documentary first of all what was it you said the director David what was it about and then also was he aiming for more of that polished composed

natural light look or was it more just like we're shooting what we've got? Yeah, no, I think, I think, so David Smick, he's the director, they, and, uh, they wanted, they definitely, this was more, like, but, you know, this was, this project was like interviews and some B-roll footage and stuff. Gotcha. I think a B-roll stuff was more natural, but it was definitely, we didn't like go out in, and light, uh, when we're following characters around.

we weren't lighting that, so to speak, but there were, I think there were a look, when I was operating for that, I would, there was a lot of me orienting the camera so that it looked good for light so long as it worked for what we were trying to capture. So I would manipulate, you know, the directionality of light simply by my operating, right? Because we weren't trying to direct, I don't think we were trying to direct the people to my, It's a documentary. You're trying to let things happen as they naturally would. But no, I think that's a more polished, a lit look.

Michael Douglass narrated it. Oh, cool. Yeah. Yeah, it definitely has a higher budget look than what we were going for and the other goal. Yeah. And what was the doc about? it's called America's burning and it's it's kind of about it explores like the political division in the country and the social economic issues we're kind of having you know it addresses a lot of um kind of how the social contract has changed a little bit this is how I see it yeah you know where people used to be able to they used to be able to work a single job I'm going to be able to afford a house and raise a family.

And now, with dual incomes, you can't even buy a house. Or raise a family. It addresses that. And compounded by, you know, all the political division. It even explores kind of like the concept of the civil war. Like, and they were doing, they came up with this concept before them, they even knew the movie. Well, the movie's about journalists anyway. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

No, but then there's a really interesting kind of mock situation. They go through, you know, what would a civil war look like if it would actually happen? And they just kind of explore all of that. And there's a hopeful ending to it, though. It isn't all doom and blown. Sure. But, I mean, I will say if millennials are single issue, voters it's that it's that like everything feels insurmountable and

unaffordable simultaneously oh yeah yeah when I was watching it when I was watching the movie at Tribeca the audience was definitely engaged with that film I mean people getting out loud saying things while they're watching it agreeing getting upset about certain issues that were brought up it was it was really it was really cool to see an audience that engaged with a movie And what type of subjects were you interviewing? Oh, gosh, it was, you know, it's a lot of political powerhouses, a lot of people, a lot of economic powerhouses. Like people, David is quite a respected economist himself, and he has a bestseller.

And you can imagine the types of interviews he would get with other resources. expected of Congress and political figures. It was like that. Gotcha. And so how do you approach, I'm about to do something vaguely, subject-wise, not subject of the film, I mean person, the interview, the interviewee, somewhat similar high-powered folks. When you, I assume these people have, that don't have all the time in the world, you know, how are you getting on, not on set, but entering their space?

you know, what type of setups did you have, but also how were you as the DP interacting with these subjects in a way that they feel comfortable with you, but also you're not probably supposed to take up any time. This is director or interviewer and interviewee, you know, but you're

part of it, you know? I mean, my philosophy when I'm shooting interviews for a documentary like this is to be as invisible as possible. I really don't want to influence it. I mean, you know what's interesting? Even on a narrative film, I've been in issues where I've been in situations where an actor is asking me, you know, how did I do?

How did I do? It asking me for feedback. And like, even when like early, early on, I would give the actor encouragement. If I thought, if I genuinely thought it was an amazing performance, I'd let them know that. And I've had directors get really upset at me about that. Like, don't tell my actors that they're doing good. And I've kind of learned, like, I've got to be careful with that. You know, I think it depends on my relationship with the director.

There's some directors who really, you know, I just have such a close relationship with them, and they trust me so much that, you know, it's fine either way. But I really try to be careful, but especially in a documentary where you, you know it to me it's almost like a lab setting in the sense that they're trying to extract you know a genuine reaction from this person i'm trying not to contaminate it anyway you know it's it just kind of you know get it get it lit and get out of the way and make sure that it's it's set up in a way that uh can like won't interrupt the session and allow them to just continue.

And if they're getting gold, I can't be like, whoa, hold on. And, you know, I think it's a little too bright right here. Let me fly up a little light right here.

I just got to stay out of doing that stuff. Yeah, the toughest part is like if something does go wrong with like the cameras, for instance, you just have to eat it until they start asking another question. Because you're not going to go with the interviewees talking. So you're just like, shit, shit, shit.

Yeah, okay. Iris, Iris. Okay, okay. No, you're good. Go. What? I think it's a little different than when you're out, you know, getting B-roll or shooting, you know, whoever the subject is out in the real environment.

You're following them around and you're, it's a little, it's a little different there. You know, you kind of, I think you're still trying to stay out of the way and let what would naturally occur happen. But I think I'm paying a little bit more attention, you know, like, because I'm interacting with them, in a way and trying to anticipate what might happen so that I can be in the right place for it. But with interviews, it's just like that and make sure that you're not going to interrupt anything. You know, it's actually,

it's a great point that you brought up about, like, not telling actors that they did a good job or whatever, not because whatever, quote unquote, that's not your job. But because I think anyone who works in any art form knows that this, we're all doing it. At the end of the day, yeah, you love it. But to have fun and play around with your friends.

And it's hard to not be, you know, be nice. So we'll go, how did I do? Of course, you're going to be like, oh, great. You know, like even if it's, you didn't think about it. You just go, yeah, uh-huh. Hell yeah, dog. You know, just to be encouraging. And then the director's like, actually, that sucks.

Shut the fuck up. Like. Yeah. And the actor's like, well, race said that, you know, I'd great. But it's funny. I've heard in a bunch, like, director. There are, like, interviews with certain actors, I've noticed, they actually do say that, like, you know, a lot of times maybe the director's behind the monitor the whole time. And it's like them and the camera operator.

And at a certain point, the actors worked with the operator more than the director. And so that's where their initial, because actors are always like looking for, you know, the go no go. And if they've only got one person in front of them, it's the camera operator. And as you highlighted, they can't say, they just got to be like, oh, I can get on the radio if you want. Yeah, and that's really hard. That's really hard trying to defer or say, you know, trying to, like, not take on any way ability with that. Like, it's, I've had actors, and I think it just depends.

You got, you kind of got to read the set, you know? Yeah. It's, it's delicate. It can be delicate. There's some directors who don't want you saying anything to their actors and others. It's a set where it's okay. And, and, and, uh, and you develop that relationship with the actor. it's not it's not it's okay to tell the actor what you think i'll tell you that

it's funny i'm a relatively gregarious person i wouldn't have 170 episodes of this fucking thing if i didn't like talking uh my buddy hired me on this doc and he and he like right before we like get started with um pre-production he goes hey man um i've known this guy for 15 years he goes just wanted to say up front because you're you this isn't the time to make friends it's not like a dark document

it's a very like lighthearted doc but he's like just just saying we're hiring you to work I totally get it man I didn't know oh I did man this is at the bottom of my notes list so I went on your website

website to see what was up. I think you're the only person who has, I've met, who has shunned the common wisdom or that people tell you when you're starting out. You have a 16-minute reel. I was wondering if you're going to say something about that. Yeah. I know. I know. And it's, so, okay, let me explain my philosophy. Yeah, this is, yes, I love this. So, so there's a lot of, there's a lot of DP rules where it's like shot, shot, shot, right? Like, and they're cunning quick and they're showing amazing shots but I think what I was trying

this all sent from when I was getting in a conversation with I had some friends who are editors some of directors and we're all talking about what does the reel look like for an editor what is the real look like? Right. And like I remember I was talking to one of my editor friends in this script and I was like

I feel like an editor's reel needs to like at least be like scenes so you can show how you're cutting and develop a scene. And then it made me think about my reel. And I was like, I feel like maybe a DP's reel should shouldn't just be the best cherry-picked shots that you have. But, like, possibly at least parts of the scene so that you can show how you can develop visually, you know, a scene arc or something like that or just, you know, how do you open that scene? How does your other coverage fit in with how you opened that scene and everything else visually, you know, is this visual continuity and tone

that goes through it. So like there's a lot of stuff where in there where I'm not just showing my favorite shot from a scene or a movie, but rather the sort of shots surrounding that to show how I get into that shot, how it comes out and how the rest of the scene feels. There's also I group other shots from a particular project with it so that you can see how other parts of the movie look relative to that scene. So, you know, and they're all shots that I like anyways. They're not necessarily always my favorite shots, but they're, but I feel like it, it's, I'm trying to show that I can be cohesive in a movie that things can be visually cohesive

and, and work with each other when they're cut together. You know, I don't, you know, there's my shots. can be cut together. I've been starting to show that I can develop it visually. Well, and it's a great point you bring up because more and more younger folks

are coming from a photography background and not from like, didn't go to film school, not that you need to go to film school, but don't have a more traditional education in the language of cinema, the visual language of getting shots that cut together

and instead are taking moving photographs that don't actually cut together. And it's way easier to hide that you don't know how to link shots together in a one and a half minute reel of all your favorite pretty shots. You might as well make a photo book and just hand that to the producer and be like, well, I know how to light pretty. You know, so you're 100% right on that.

Like, that is a, I don't want to say bulletproof, but it's very solid theory on why to make a longer video. Also, I don't think anyone's going to watch the whole thing anyway. I had somebody who has a lot of experience in the industry that I trust a lot telling me that what happens is directors will look at maybe the first two or three minutes of your reel. Maybe they'll skip around a little bit and they'll see that you're competent or they'll see that, oh, that's pretty good. Now, now then they'll meet you and then they want to assess whether they can tolerate you, you know? And then if after the meeting they like you, then they'll go back and study the shit out of your reel. Yeah.

And it's usually how it kind of works. And so it's like, I think my reel will work for that scenario. 100%. No, that's so smart. I mean, if I were to redo mine in a similar fashion, I guess I would do like the current movie trailer thing where it's like the first 30 seconds are like a cut together highlight reel of what the trailer is going to be. So you do that because you're so right. Like I've I've asked plenty of DPs, the real question. And nine times out of 10, it's exactly what you said, where it's like, it's a gut check for the producer of the director.

Are they competent? Are they like, do they know how to like, does this look like they've only shot, you know, music videos on their cell phone or whatever? Okay, good. Now let's start emailing. So that's actually a very, I got to think about that. That's pretty smart. But I think I also need, I'm actually planning on cutting just. like a really tight one just in case this and kind of having I don't know I haven't

figured out what I do you know we can workshop this maybe you have the normal one right and then under it you have links if if we're thinking that the the timeline is quick gut check skipping around interview study you have your you know quote unquote traditional real and then links below it to those scenes in full. So it's all your like highlight shots. And then just the scene clipped out in like private, unlisted videos, whatever. Study.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Clifnose version versus the actual book, you know. I can see people just arguing, well, if they've, if the directors moved on to the study version, they'll probably just want to see the films you shot. Or just like watch those. Yeah, I suppose. I don't know. I don't know where it all fits.

But I just felt like it was important to show that, like, I, I wasn't just making these singular pretty shots. Yeah. That I want people to see that there was, I could shoot stuff that could support those shots. And it would work and it would all flow together, you know? Well, you also have the body of work where you can fill out a 16 minute. If I tried attempting that, it would get boring, fucking quick. but I have I did have a similar thought of like in mine

I don't think there's any single shots like it's like every project has at least like four that all cut together yeah or part of one scene or whatever yeah I don't I don't know that's something I've been struggling with like I love that you brought it up

that well because because the natural flow of it is like you know do you have a real and then are you represented but you're also in 600 I have. So does that, do you have representation? I don't yet, no.

I actually am meeting with some agents this week and next week. And so what was the day once? I'm sure someone will. But Tribeca has helped me. I should say that. Well, that's going to be my follow-up. Yeah. Yeah, I've been getting meetings with agents.

And then I'm going to see what comes of. it. And if it's a situation where I'm actually getting to pick an agent or if anybody wants me at all. But this is way more than has ever happened to me before. Sure. And what was your what was the path like to getting in the union? Because that's especially these days like a pretty hot topic. Just being in unions in general. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I joined I joined right at the beginning of COVID. So like, sweet. Coming into COVID, right? Actually, I wouldn't have joined had it not been for COVID.

In a way, I mean, I would have eventually, I think, but COVID is what motivated me. So, like, I had my days prior to that. I had actually usually had all my qualifying days, but I was just way too lazy to join. And I just, a lot of the stuff that I'm shooting are these indie films that are like international films. they're not. It's funny, the largest cruise, the smallest cruise I've worked with has been on U.S. soil. Like, it's, like, my bigger cruise I tend to work with, it's internationally. And, and so, like, I easily had my days, but I just was like, I mean, I didn't know if it made sense to join. I just, it was a lot of work with contract services. And, and, you know, when I wasn't

shooting, I was just exhausted or just trying to spend time with my, you know, with my wife. And like, and then when COVID hit, I'm just, everyone's just sitting at home doing nothing. So I just kind of figure, all right, well, I'll just start seeing what this is like getting everything that contract services want. So I reached out to Local 600 and in contract services and got, you know, everything you need to send them. And I slowly, you know, started compiling everything. And it's a lot of work.

It's like, it is just like, ugh. But again, like, I don't know if I would have done it had I not been sitting around during COVID, but I did. And I got it all in. And then I had to, and then once you get in, you got to take all those classes. And it was nice because they were, yeah, I think prior to COVID, you had to actually go in. Right. I take a lot of these classes and tests, and they had made it so you could do it on. So basically, because of COVID, like, I went through the whole process and I did all my training and everything online.

They had developed classes, I think, just for that situation. And so, like, I just went through that. I must be one of their first COVID people. Because all that training that they developed from online stuff, like, it was, it definitely made it a lot easier to, like, not having to go in. Yeah. But that's what I'm in is because. Yeah, COVID. Buy a PlayStation, join the union. Exactly.

What are those classes, you know, ostensibly you join a union or, you know, if you're invited to the ASC or whatever, it's because of your body of work and because your expertise. So what are they teaching you in these classes? Are they just trying to get everyone at like kind of the same speed or like what does that entail? Oh, the all the contract service stuff. Is that what those are? I'm not in the unit. Yeah, like contract services has, um, they, yeah, so they have a lot of, they have a lot of courses

and they're all like, like OSHA, like safety related. Gotcha. Okay. Sexual harassment related. You know what I think it is? I think it's, it's for the producers. Right. When you're in the union, they know that you've taken all these courses to reduce their

liability. Yeah. Yeah. Like, they know they, they have. have a DP that's taking all the required safety courses, all the required courses on, you know, you know, not getting canceled, not getting yourself in trouble, like all that stuff. Like, and- Saving like a professional.

Yeah, exactly. Because now you're a professional. Exactly. And so they know they can hire. I imagine that there's probably some type of like liability and insurance. You know, insurance is like, it's going to be this much, but everybody has to be, you know, certified by contract services or being you know be in the union or something yeah because with that they know that you've taken all the proper safety courses and stuff so yeah they're not they're not

courses like teaching you how to like you know yeah because i was like wouldn't you already know but it's funny it's like the the real is the gut check on if you're competent and the union is the gut check on if you can just behave like an adult yeah yeah yeah it's yeah when i was taking the I think I had that same question. I was like, what are these classes they want me to take? And then once I was through like a few, I'm like, oh, I see. It's so I kill myself or get anyone else killed. And it's a liability thing for the producers.

You know, right? They need to know that they have somebody who's been properly trained so that people aren't dying on sense. Well, and it makes total sense. Like, when I was bartending, I had to take a food handler's course. Like, I'm not handling food. I'm pouring beer, but it's all still, you know, they got to know that you have a level of safety knowledge and all that you know it's it's not weird well is there uh obviously being in the union is helpful for plenty of reasons and not uh just being able to work on union

gigs notwithstanding is there anything that makes it more difficult being in the union like is it harder to work on certain gigs now that because you're at that professional level or is it all kind of like always a good choice to do that I don't know if I'm the right person. I joined the union. I have yet to work a union job. Well, to be fair, in the amount of time you've been in it, not a lot of jobs. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, everything I've done has been, yeah, again, all the biggest films I work on are, it's been international. And they aren't, they're not local. And they're, yeah, so I don't, I think, though, I think there is something that's being ready when somebody does ask you. Right. Kind of, there's a lot of hoops to jump through once you join it. Well, and to your earlier point about like taking meetings with agents and stuff, it's like way easier for an agent to rep you if you already have all these prequalifications and not

only just your body of work, but again, that that, that, um, not safety but confidence in who they're repping based on those qualifications yeah yeah and it was like and in joining is not

it's not cheap they do have like really nice zero percent finance programs like you can pay it over time and so you know that that

I don't think I would have been able to do it they not had that allowed us to do that, but that definitely made it easier. Sure. I got to keep, I just realized we went over. It's hard,

dude, it's so hard. Yeah. Dude, it goes by so fast. I've learned, I've literally learned if I fill my notepad up, we're going for two hours.

Like half of a note pad is usually a full hour conversation. I used to prepare like five, eight and a half by 11 pages. And I was like, I'll never get to all of this. I just got to lock this down to the top, like, 10 I want to talk about. I mean, do you, do you edit this? You do a little?

Not really. I mean, like, if, if, so this is, I've had a few people ask me, like, not people like, I'm going to. Oh, sorry, go on. Oh, I was just going to say people who, like, want to start podcasts. And I've found that the fastest way to edit is just while you're doing the interview, if you find that you know you're going to have to cut. something out like so we started at one o'clock right or at two o'clock um if that's on the timeline

I know that's going to be zero right so if I or you say something that I know needs to get cut out for whatever reason I'll just look at the clock and then go all right well that was minute 46 and I'll just put a circle around it and then I keep that piece of paper and then when I go to like construct the podcast together you know chop out the beginning and end where we're just bullshitting. I just go to minute 46 and then search for it instead of like, you know, making a transcript and like the interview is already an hour and a half. I'm not going to rewatch it. I've gotten, I've gotten editing down to 20 minutes. I can knock it out in 20 minutes, but it's just like I should do it. Right after this, I should put it together because the next

episode comes out tomorrow, but I always put it off to the last second because I, I'm wishing I, I'm hoping I can get to the point where I can just give it to someone to do it, but, but I don't make a penny on this shit. So, uh, this. This is all just for fun. Yeah. I don't know how much they cost. The editors, like I, I, I, the big YouTubers that they're sending out there's stuff to get edited, right?

Yeah, but that, okay. So I have a few friends who work relatively in that space and there are so many young guys, it's usually guys who aren't, you know, speaking to the point of like unions and, and, and all that stuff, like, they were raised on Premiere or Final Cut or whatever, so it's like a second language to them and it seems easy so they're like hey i'll do it for 20 bucks like i know plenty of like YouTubers who have like millions of subscribers who are paying their editors like 20 50 bucks to edit a one hour gameplay video or whatever it may be because those kids ostensibly don't know their worth you know like if you ask a real editor to do something

it's going to be 500 minimum a day minimum a day not even for the project and they're doing 20, 50 bucks, whatever, just because they're so excited to work for their favorite YouTuber. And it's like, that is actually one thing that I do not like about where the lower tier of the industry is headed because that's not going to, that will trickle up. You know, oh, we can find an editor. We can find a, a filmer for this, you know, that'll do it for cheaper. It's like, all, well, then hire them.

Luckily, like, you might be in this position. I feel like I'm relatively there where I can be like, well, then hire that guy. Like, I don't need, I don't need you to pay me 200 bucks to film for three days, 18 hour days, you know, I'm good. Yeah, something will come along on the project. Well, yeah, I mean, yeah, it's something you're super stoked on. But usually it's like, for me, it's, you know, corporate or whatever.

I don't do a lot of narrative recently, which blows. That's actually, you're, you're right. If someone handed me a sick narrative project that I could actually do some good work and yeah, I'd do that for dirty cheap because I just want to do that again. And so I'm like who's in it like that, especially if you have an incredible actor.

Right. That's what motivates me in the mess. It would be like when I know there's an incredible actor. They don't have to be famous. You know, just good. I think that that's my dream. I would just like, I love, I think I love indie films in the sense that like

if you, it's like a, it's like a, Somalia, who's like, you know, sure, everybody knows the expensive bottles of wine, but, but, you know, when they're suggesting you, like, the new up-and-coming and the, and the value bottles and stuff, it's, like, amazing to discover these actors who are so good and they're not, no one knows about them yet. Like, I could pick a career, it'd be, like, making movies with actors like that and just discovering new talent all the time. Yeah.

that my my example recently has consistently been uh the kid from the holdovers oh yeah just got picked out of the school they filmed in yeah i think his name's done like i was like that kid needs to quit whatever he's doing and just start acting because damn i like that one of my favorite movies is as an album's under pinfall it's uh the descendants oh absolutely absolutely but yeah that's crazy that was his first gig right didn't they find him at the school at the school they were filming it and then I was I was talking to Eigle Burld who shot it

and he was like oh yeah it was hilarious because like everyone had you know accommodations hotel trailer whatever and they just sent Dominic back to his room because it's like a boarding school so they're like go back to your room go back to your dorm buddy like we'll call you when we need you Did he get any other gigs? I assume he took some phone calls.

I don't know. I haven't looked him up or anything. I should probably stalk that kid. But yeah, that one was good. The other thing that gets me excited, like, if great actor and sick production design, coming full circle to what your sister did, like, I, what got me into film was legitimately, like, effects work. Like, I have every sin effects. Like, that shit excites the hell out of me. I should have gotten into that, but I became a DP.

And, yeah, so if I work on a film with a sick actor and, like, a lot of, like, fun props and and production design and all that, like, that's, that's what I'm aiming for. I mean, that's, yeah, there's that saying, like, like, DPs take credit all the time for good production design. Yeah. That's why I interview production designers on this show sometimes is because it's like, how do you do it? You know? Yeah.

Yeah, it's crazy. It's like if you could take the exact same light and even the same actor, I think an actor is really a good, interesting face is important and good acting in a cinematography meal, right? Yeah. But you can take the exact same light. And if it's just like, you know, L.A. apartment in the background or like you're just a white wall, you know, or you throw back, you know, you throw amazing production design back there. It makes all the difference in the world.

Yeah. I always wonder how, like, I always go back to the Goldfinch. I was like, how did, how does Dinkin's something annoyed? Because they're in that Las Vegas track home, you know? You know, like, this is like the standard house when nobody has any money. They're trying to make a movie. And it's just the production design is so bad because it's just these plain, like, you know, these plain walls.

And I'm like, God, how did Deacons do it? And I was looking like, he did pretty good. It's so I, obviously Deacons is like the king of simplicity. You know, when people, you look at his lighting steps. He's like, I don't know, I just bounced it off that, you know, and that's it. Especially to your point about like, lighting can be very simple production. That's amazing. But I remember watching what was it called Empire of Light or whatever about the theater.

And I didn't know anything about it. I, because I'm on that AMCA list and I'm like one of those cult members that always tells everyone you need to get on the AMCA list, I'll just go to movies. Like, I don't look anything. I'll just book it. And so we went to that one and I like Olivia Coleman. And within the first 15 minutes, the quality of the tungsten light in that film, I was like, did deacon shoot this? And then we get to the end. And it was like, yeah, fucking, of course he did.

There's something about the way that he like demands the coloring or whatever his, like production lead is that he always use it, but there's something about the way that he handles tungsten. Or maybe just I don't see tungsten anymore because everyone's using LED. There's something about it that's just very decency. It's like yellow. It's very yellow.

It's not orange, you know. Right. Yeah, he's not afraid. He likes to go into this deeper tungsten shades, but he's. Yeah, I mean, it's also about how he, how he shapes it. Yeah.

I guess is incredible. Do you skate and snowboard? Yeah, that's actually my yeah, right, 25th anniversary board. Yeah, I grew up in snowboarding and surfing. Are you from Southern California? Northern California. Okay. Oh, I saw you were from San Francisco.

I'm from San Jose. Well, I was just born there, but I grew up in Southern California. Oh, gotcha. Yeah, if I were to tilt the camera, there's three more boards on this wall. I've never sold or got here. do you do you have an icon pass uh so i run uh college ski trips every winter and so so for like two months of december january i'm i'm in colorado and this was the first season where they were like hey it it was cheaper to get you an icon pass than to buy you the tickets

for these trips so this year i did get i i got one but then i didn't end up using it that's exactly how they're pricing it man they're they're they're so smart i mean they they basically to just outright buy a ski ticket they've made it so expensive they're forcing people into a subscription model it's like it's just makes more sense to just buy an icon pass every year if you're in this very expensive

sport of skiing to begin with yeah Vail Resorts is not doing good by the ski and snowboard community in my opinion they are they are corporatizing something that used to just be a fun hang

and making it not fun because it is expensive but even like there was one it was like the last locally owned mountain in Colorado just got bought by I think it was Vail or someone

and it's just like it's like two companies right like that there's whoever owns an icon and then there's epic yeah and like those two companies own like a really high percentage of all the ski resorts in the world

yeah well and that was the other problem too they got me icon pass and then all the LA California adjacent mountains are all icon or Epic so I was like I was hoping I could go to like mammoth or something yeah no wait

mammoth and and Big Bear are icon oh are they okay then I fucked up I maybe I just I don't know what I was looking at and Epic is Whistler if you get to Whistler I have not been to Colorado yet but

the closest I've gotten is steamboat well that's a good resort dude steamboat the backside of steamboat is like infinitely sessionable even though it's kind of short but yeah I love

I've snowboarded literally my whole life it's like walking I don't this is by the way related to cinematography this is part of how I could transition to do it I was shooting like snowboarding and skateboarding ideas and stuff like that

okay well we got to get into this I turn it back I could talk about snowboarding all the long yeah well but that is partly how I got into so same for me

with skateboarding I always wanted to film snowboarding but at the time you know I had I had an XL2 so I wasn't going to bring that on this that's scary and also filming while snowboarding like there's a reason skiers film because it's a lot easier to you know go on fork but how are you filming

those snowboard films and had you ever heard of the German group Eisen 7? No. I'm going to send you some links. They put all their, they've kind of disbanded now. Most of them became like Red Bull athletes or whatever. But they back in like when we were in college,

you know, somewhere between like 05 and 12, they were putting out the most high budget on a shoestring budget snowboard films ever. They were like They're like movies. They're like future films.

Yeah. I mean, like this, we're not talking art of flight here, but it's like when you're so used to skateboard films and like that raw kind of aesthetic that we all, you know, the 401 videos or trans world or anything like that, watching the Ice and Seven guys was like, oh,

like I've never seen someone use after effects in a snowboard film or like a jib. Like just, or HD. Like it was actually an HD for the first time, which was crazy. Like, when you see these, you'll, if I were to show anyone else, they'd be like, yeah, that looks fine. But, like, if you understand when it came out, you'll be like, this is actually cutting fucking edge for snowboard films at the time. And they were fun.

Trying to be like, are you familiar with like old, old school, like Warren Miller? Yeah. Oh, I, when I was in college, I put up. Like, you're trying to be like a useful Warren Miller, like just like big budget production ski film? No, so I actually did a lot of Warren Miller premieres at my college. But Warren Miller always felt more like National Geographic to me. Yeah, Warren Miller was like, I think, I think Art of Flight was trying to be Warren Miller and then just like overshot it, you know. Oh, interesting.

Whereas Ison 7 was just trying to make the average skate film as pretty as possible because they didn't have like infinite resource. They were still shooting on like X3s or whatever, but they just put a shit ton of effort into it. And they had six soundtracks. Did they stumble on like, is it like one of those things where they didn't necessarily mean to be like that? But the friend who they hired to DP was like an aspiring DP. That's exactly what happened. Okay. You know what's crazy?

Because I was such a fan of it. And these guys are German, right? They never came to, they would tour their films in Germany. I think maybe they came to America once. But I followed the DP and the director on. on Instagram. And in like 2016 or 17, I get an email from someone working at Minnie Cooper and goes, hey, we were looking for a DP in America. This guy suggested you. And I was like, he knows I exist. What? Hold on. I guess I guess he followed me back or whatever and had me

on Instagram. And because I, you know, I'd comment on his shit because I was his fan. But then so he got me a gig on a on a mini ad that I fully did not deserve but you know it was a good good jump for me you have influence in the zoo I mean I've bought a sun filled bulbs because

you did you read that article dude I need yeah I need GE to that's actually been brought up a couple times I need some more they're really pretty lights the only thing I've noticed now after using him for like four years is that if you run them nonstop you know if it's like you're

main kitchen light, they, they will start to flicker with like on startup, like, because they're dying, you know, because I'm, the one in my closet's probably been running for three years nonstop, because at night, that's just the like office light because I don't have like an overhead. Yeah. But other than that, I mean, those things are spectrally excellent. Yeah. I mean, I got, I put one in my refrigerator.

Really? Because the bulb in my fridge, it was, you know, it was dying. And then I started thinking about, like, you know, a, you know, CRI or TLCI, you know, for, like, a refrigerator light. Right. And, like, because I was always kind of like, you know, now that I think about it, like, all my food always looked a little muddy, you know. And that's why I put in a high quality bulb in my fridge and now, like, all my bell peppers popped and everything was like, you know. changing in that area and like yeah I think I highly recommend putting in high quality light for DPs you know like in their fridge you guys should do it dude it after I wrote that article

I literally went around my house replaced every single bulb yeah because it was like like there's no affordable they're not when I wrote that article they're like 12 bucks now they're like four no it's like 20 they were like expensive when they first came out um but now that now they're super cheap and but yeah like L.A. DWP was handing out. They're like, hey, we're switching everyone to LED. Here's some free bulbs. And they are like the garbageiest bull. I'm like, you are giving everyone in Los Angeles a headache with these stupid worse than IKEA free bulbs. You absolutely went to the lowest bidder. And I just fucking ripped them everything out. And now it's all one color temperature, all one spectral output. It's very pleasing to me. My girlfriend did not notice a difference. But I did. well listen man i uh i've kept you a half hour over so i'll let you go but uh obviously great chatting with you and i'll uh right when i hop off i'll send you the links to the uh the snowboard

film and uh yeah man guys well okay let everybody thank you frame and reference is an owlbot production it's produced and edited by me kennie mcmillan and distributed by pro video coalition if you'd like to support the podcast directly you can do so on patreon by going to frame and rep pod where you can get all the episodes and clicking the Patreon button. It's always appreciated, and as always, thanks for listening.