Frame & Reference Podcast - 158: "Good Bad Things" DP Nathan Haugaard

Episode Date: September 5, 2024

Today I'm pleased to have my friend Nathan haugaard on the show to talk about his fantastic work on the new film "Good Bad Things" Nathan has an insane background working on the cool technical stuff (Avatar & Alita for instance, some of the older 3D stuff back when that was popular as well) on top being a very accomplished DP so this chat's a real treat. Enjoy! Visit https://www.frameandrefpod.com for everything F&R https://www.patreon.com/frameandrefpod Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coast's leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠⁠Filmtools.com⁠⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello, and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and you're listening to Episode 158 with Nathan Howgard, DP of Good, Bad Things. Enjoy. No, it's good to start this, but now I know Kenny McMillan, um, a writer guy. Yeah, journalist. I am, I am actually a journalist. Yes. Proper. Proper. I used, dude, when I first got that job, I was so scared, because I went to like film school, you know, I'm not, I didn't study journalism or anything. So I took it very seriously and I was like emailing like AP and stuff. Like, what are like, what do I do? And then after like five years of that, I realized that all of the people that I was talking to all these like camera manufacturers or even artists or whoever don't really like talking to classically trained journalists because it's incredibly dry and it feels like a job.

So like I'll get put on, you know, going to NAB or whatever. And after a few years of that, I've noticed that they're very much like, oh, thank God it's you. It feels like a break, you know, because they don't have to be so corporate about it because my, my interview style has always, I mean, the interview style on this podcast is the same way I treat, you know, quote unquote journalism, which is to take a much more, I don't know, human forward approach. Like, you're not talking to a company. You're talking to a person who has opinions and feelings who, you know, it's up to them to tell me their line is not my line. You know, I'll ask whatever I want. It's up to them to give me the information in a way that they want to or that the company makes them. You know, it's way harder for me to ask ahead of time.

What are you allowed to talk about? I'd rather just cut out that question if necessary. Sure. Do you do that often then? Do you find yourself because it's so conversational having to chop stuff out? No, only because I've had practice. But at first, yeah, there was a lot more. How much do you hate working for your company?

Tell me. well and I find like a lot like black magic is really like whenever I talk to those people they're very free about information I'm really good friends with the Canon people but because Canon Japan is Japan they're way more tight-lipped and the the American team I've seen be frustrated by it just being hamstered like one of the craziest things I think I can say this Um, like the Hubble telescope is a cannon lens. I didn't know that. No one does. They know they don't advertise it. And I asked someone on the American team years ago, like, why not? And they were like, Japan is not interested in making that like an advertising.

So cool. How do you feel about this explosion of lens manufacturing? It's a very recent. This is like a five year problem, I think, right? Yeah. All the Chinese lenses. I think it's a problem. Why so?

I think it's too many choices. I think it's like too much conversation about it's just like, I don't know. My favorite part of the process is figuring out like where to put the thing. And it's less time, you know, because like everyone loves talking about gear and now there's just more gear. So now there's just a lot more conversation about gear. but it's like yeah but like what problem are we solving like let's just and it's I don't know yeah I think the I think that just from a consumer perspective having a lot of options is cool

I think most of the lenses that are coming out now are so much the same that to your point about these conversations happening is like people are nitpicking over stuff that really doesn't matter. And especially younger people or people new to the art form are at a disadvantage because they think, you know, they're on Reddit. They're on YouTube, whatever. And they think that these conversations are necessary. Like, oh, what's the difference between, you know, a Blazar anamorphic and a Siri animorphic? And it's like, if you look at them, they're borderline identical potential. I don't, I'm just picked two names. But, um, I feel like you'll probably appreciate this. Like it was a lot easier when the information was less valuable and you and the thing was just, or not less valuable, less prevalent. And the thing was just to go test. Right.

And come up with your own little thingy. Yep. Josh Hommi is one of my favorite musicians, the guy from Queens of the Stone Age. And he's real tight-lipped about his equipment. And he explained it. you know, everyone, whether it be music or whether it be film or whatever, everyone wants to use what their heroes use because it gives you, I think personally, I think it gives you like a feeling of lineage. You know, you're part of a family tree of creators that you love. But, you know, you want to be sure like, oh, my hero uses this so I can be sure that it's good. But that's also a fallacy because like what if you know more than them and you just didn't know they're just more successfully than you. But Josh Hami mentioned, like, he doesn't tell anyone what he uses because he spent a lot of time trying to make his own personal sound. Like, you don't need him doing, you know, Gibson with a with a Fender amp, you know, chocolate and peanut butter.

That's great. You need people want something else. But if you spend a bunch of time trying to figure out what he uses. Yeah. And only being able to find things that are close or whatever, in that experience, in that journey, you will find. your own thing and you won't necessarily need to copy him. And I think that's true with most art, like when people talk about, oh, stealing is great. It's like, yeah, but only in service of trying to find your thing.

If you're trying to copy someone that you self-limit yourself and you don't find a voice, but at first you don't have a voice. So it's like important to try to find those things. But yeah. I've spent way to, well, I spent too much time early on my career trying to emulate. a look and not enough time emotionally reacting to like it's the front of me and it's just like I wish I could do over some of those things and that's the conversation with the gear too is it's just like there's too much of a concern over just all the little technical bits and bobs and like on this

movie that's coming out now good bad things I mean we just shot on photography lenses because it's like what's the same it's like the best camera is the one you have yeah You know, it's like you could walk that out. The best anamorphic lens is the one that you've got access to. It's like if you want an anamorphic look like, start there, what do you have access to? And then if you've got the means and the resources, like, keep walking it out and you keep getting more and more specific about like, well, I need this close focus and I want that color flare and I want this kind of edge distortion and like you keep going down that rabbit hole. But it's amazing what you can do, especially like in the DI now, like take a photography lens and then do the MTF. transform, which is like a word that I don't really even know.

Do you know what MTF stands for? Modular. Modular something transmission. No, modular transmission function. Yeah. I believe. Yeah. Which I didn't fully appreciate until the grade for this film.

But it's like, let's slowly detune this lens, this photography lens, so it's no longer inch to edge sharp, you know, and then discreet character, which is like, great. like that's what that technology is for and I just didn't have it just wasn't an option for this film to be like what lenses do I play with and just like just tell the story yeah and like cool now let's give it some character what's the right character to give it let's play with it yeah I think uh like one thing that that I appreciate about I got to interview Eric Measersmith a few times and his work with Fincher very much embodies that idea of like get it get get get it as clean as possible and then decide be very precise with what you want that look to look like because I think you know especially five 10 years ago everyone was just like when the grade wasn't accessible when resolve wasn't like so prevalent and so powerful for the average person you know everyone was just like fuck it k35s give me something you know because they just weren't like well that's also a thing

Right? Like it's, but I love what you're saying. Yeah. I mean, I love the Fincher Escher Schmidt. Sorry. Yeah. It blows when you watch their on off, like their VFX like, and you're just like, oh, my goodness. Yeah.

I believe that's our temple that does most of their VFX work. They're incredible. Yeah. It's Cremdala crowd. Yeah. One trick I've actually started doing in Resolve. Because over the pandemic, I had to become a freelance colorist. I've gotten pretty good at that now.

And it's nice because I don't have to leave the house. But one trick I just figured out in Resolve is if you take, there's a depth map effect. And if you map the depth map mask into the blue triangle on the node so that it takes the mask from that. and you put the tilt shift effect on that and then slam the anamorphism to the left it'll make the background anamorphic blurry that those straight lines and it eats the shit out of my computer

but you can you know I'll shoot on those sigma lenses that are very neutral very clean sharp and then do that like anamorphism blur and then target the high frequency parts of the image and detune that, but not the whole image, right? So, like, you know, when film is sharp, but not in the high freak, like hair, you know, that kind of gets a little softer. And just being able to tune all that and make it look like exactly the way you want is

way better than buying, like, DeHanter is great, but, like, you know, having something to it for you. Right. Dude, now I'm going to steal that. That's awesome. I'll send you my power grade for it. That's precisely it. and spending more time

having conversations about why on set. Why is the most important word? And I feel like people shouldn't be afraid to ask. But it's like, you know, like I want this camera. Why? Oh, because like I just saw this commercial for it

and because so and so used it. And it's like going back to like the musician thing. So you buy a guitar because that guitar wrote the hit song. It's like the guitar. write the song you know it's like just a tool you know like how are we using this thing i love that conversation that's the best well and i feel like we as dps can get a little ahead of our skis in regards to like how important our job is oh if i don't get this lens it's not going to be my

vision and it's like you know the audience doesn't care like i i really want you to do what makes you happy and what serves the story. But like, I think, I think we get a little too, uh, uh, granular about all choices that don't know, you know, I need this light instead of this light. It's like, does it look different on the subject? Probably not. Like, pick the thing that makes your workflow easier, not the thing that, I need sky panels. Well, sky panels aren't that great.

Honestly, new lights have come out that are much better than sky panels. Yeah. Yeah. Way cheaper. lighter. Yeah. I read that the, you kind of,

and I feel like that people our age kind of this happened to all of us, but like you kind of really got a jump start when the 5D came out because obviously before that

it was DVX or film. Which I also shot. The DVX was great. I remember like I worked a job at high school. It's high school. It's like end of high school coming into

freshman year of college. I worked a gig for a guy because he wouldn't pay me, but he would give me unfettered access to his DBX. That was like, that camera ruled. Yeah. I have an XL2 still. Yes.

How excited are you for 28 years later? Okay. So, I'm not going to lie. I was supposed to interview Anthony Dodd Mantle an hour before you. Hey. And then he pulled out last second. And I was literally going to, I think I'm interviewing him next week. But I was going to pull out the X-L-2 and be like,

dude, you had an effect on my career. Yeah. It's still hot. It's incredible. Yeah. The power of a light meter. Dude. Are you a light meter guy?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. But just as like a starting point, it's like just, it's like brass tacks. What's going on? And if especially now, if I've got like a studio camera, like if it's a big, if it's a big, build and I could walk through the space the combination of using like the cadrage iPhone app and a light meter it's like we're good and like that's some shape and then I really it's real the light meter is most important for me when I get really anal about coverage and a really quick

so like a really quick case in point is I did the science fiction film in Romania over Christmas and I had to shoot up this big wide and you know like I can't shape the actors obviously it's like this huge wide they're on this train platform I love big big big wides because I think you know if you're making a small film that's great make a small film but give it scope whenever possible and make it feel bigger than it is so you get this like every little bit of production value I have is in this big frame and and I just metered like well like it's totally overcast but what's the sky to like the shadow side of their chin like what's the ratio of like forehead to chin and then when i got

in close then i was able to like book light an 18k and bring in like a 20 by solid and i just took this ratio and i just went like that with it which is how i like i like you know top like just like a side very classical look i was able to do that but walk it in to be the same ratio and it doesn't feel lit like i totally like i like i like for my stuff to feel naturalistic like i don't want it to feel lit but there's like an effing 18k right there but it's just so that's when the light meter is like because I don't I don't work with the DIT so like I've got nobody studying false color while I'm lighting I like to have a very very small crew sounds like yeah the old school guys could do it why can't we well and I find that I love the color meter I was really happy when I was able to

get the spot meter especially now that like digital cameras all want a different middle gray position and just knowing what that is and being able to spot meter like skin and just being like, all right, I got to put that where the camera wants it and then shape the light around that pivot point, but the color meter too, being able to match all the lights truly, because you know, you type 5600 into the back of a light, that's not, that's not what comes out the front, you know, and I'll write in Sharpie on the back of all of my fixtures what like 5,600 equals, you know, like 5,400 or like, you know, sometimes it's like 5,000 or whatever. And I'll just write those on the back so I know how to get the color that I want

out of the front if I'm not using like X, Y coordinates or whatever. That's brilliant. And you just like go a step further. Then he can like, yeah, and you're going to, if I ask for 56, then it's 54 minus two points green. Yeah, exactly. Brilliant. I love that. Yeah. Do you do that during test or is that sort of like during the first week of shooting, you're like figuring out this is what's on the truck and This is how I solve it. No, I, I'm a dork and I like went to film tools and like metered all the lights there or like the ones that I own. I'll just do it in my, you know, I'll black out of room and just get the raw data out of it. And then the big one obviously is like if you're doing, if you got a supplement like window light, just getting the X, Y coordinates on that and typing them into the back of the light, it just looks exactly.

You're talking about naturalism. Like it's because obviously light coming through the. The window is bouncing off buildings. It's bouncing off. That's why they make like the bluff bounce, right? You know, where it's got like the blue section and the green section up to met. Like you can do that with X, Y coordinates on a full RGV light. Yeah.

Yeah, that's brilliant. And then just like what, what's the quality of dust? There's nothing more beautiful than a dusty old single paint glass window. Yeah. Like it's just, it's kind of like that half soft frost diffusion. You put like a Fresnel outside and then it's just like it just. I love it. Yeah.

I also find with a light meter that, uh, you, you know, I've heard people like Deacons talk about, they used to be able to hide behind the, uh, the, the eyepiece and like think for a while and no one knew what the image was going to look like because you were the only one. I find with the light meter, if I don't set up the camera first and I go and set all the lights first and then turn on the camera and it's done, like that gives everyone, they're like, oh my God, look, I don't know what he was doing over there, but now it looks good on the monitor. It's like, that's how you keep your mystique, you know? Yeah, it's like all those little things that require some love and some time. So it's like I love operating wheels.

that's like one of the last sort of like thresholds of like oh he does this for a living yeah light meter shooting on film and with wheels it's like ooh oh you're one of the real ones yeah yeah i was i was looking through your instagram and you uh the stuff you've posted on there is like gorgeous and i was wondering is there a do you have kind of a methodology when it comes to the way that you like because i'm i'm not saying all of all all the images are the same, but there does seem to be a sort of signature there. So when I first moved to L.A., I was really fortunate to hang out with Aaron Platt. He's now a director or cinematographer.

Are you familiar with his work at all? I don't believe so. Super cool, dude. Incredibly talented. He shot some really cool indie films, but now he's like, I think he created the target look. Like, that's really beautiful high key. It's like, somehow it's high key, but it's style. it's got style it's like losing style like he's just a master so um we did uh this amazing music

video for the glitterati and um i was helping out with the art department but i was studying lighting and i'm just blown away i go like how do you how do you light and he goes what do you want to see point a light at it yeah all right and um i don't think it's like uh reductive if that's the right word so i kind of start there i mean like that's that's the essence of every of every scene so you know if a director says like you know like on this this film in romania it's all about not seeing a character so then that means we got to see someone else and um so i just like you know this this the protagonist walks into the room and he's being interviewed by someone who's kind of hiding in the shadows and it all sort of works out and you just put like

one 18k the 18 was too bright i think it's like a 6k out the window And he's sort of being blinded by this guy. And so his coverage looks very, very bright. But it's like, we see him kind of being intimidated. And then you create the opportunity for this other guy to kind of like lean into the light. And you've got that passive bounce ready to kind of like splash something back onto him. But it's just like, you know, like I want to see him. I don't want to see him.

When I want to see him, he'll reveal himself. So you work with the actors that he moves into it. But it's like if you can do it with single source, if you can, create a perspective to a scene. It's like, what are you trying to say? Like, what do you want to see here? I love backlight. It's like always be backlighting. It's like, why does this scene suck? It's like, because there's no backlight. So if I walk into any room and you give me one light, I'm going to put it up as a backlight first and foremost. And then I'll even just then will overexpose. So they'll like everything. And then you get this big, beautiful, just natural

soft, rapy bounce. Or you dial it down and then you just take away with a negative or whatnot. but like always be backlighting and what do you want to see and if you kind of hone in with that then you start it's you really guide the eye and it's you know are you does the editor is the director is the director going to edit this thing where it's like mad mac style where it's center punch every frame so that you know that your eye is always going to be there or are we exploring extremes with anamorphic but like how can you kind of be bold and just be like well what do I want to what do I want I see. Is it like him? And then it's sort of like, how can everything go to guide that? And yeah, I really like, I like a density to the image, which I think is like there needs to be dark and there needs to be light.

And I think it's also like a message thing or, oh my goodness, was it like Roger talking to La Batique and was teasing him like on for, I forgot which movie it was. but it's like, I saw it and you still put like a light in the background. It's like there should be no light in this shot. But it's like, because you have to have to have dark, you must have light. And that's that perspective. And so yeah, um, but yeah, I was going to say, I find the same with, with color. Like when people are like, oh, I want this to be a deep, you know, tungsten wash. I want everything to be orangey.

It's like, okay, well, then you do need to put a white light somewhere in there else everyone will go colorblinded. this with black and white very quickly, you know, to your brain. My gaffer, the first gaffer that I worked with consistently, Matthew Waltz, he's now the lightsaber's fixture tech for Star Wars, which is such a cool. He got to choose, I think, Asoka's color. Like he dialed it in. He's a genius. Like the specific tone of white?

Yes. He chose it. He got to like a new color and like he chose it. Um, so he's a genius and he would fight me because again, like in my early days, I love that. I was like, no, it's all orange and he's like skin tones. Yeah. Skin tones. I'm like, but yeah, you lose perspective.

I mean, my shot, I was just looking my shot right now. It's like gray, tan, white, black, like this, this looks like shit. The, the, the light direction's fine, but the color is all, although I do have the, uh, the tungsten light back there. But, um, got good texture. Yeah. Well, that's, yeah, it's 100. nice yeah but yeah the the that's always the advice I kind of give to like new students or whatever it's like

contrast think of the phrase contrast and put it anywhere whether it be literal contrast like light dark whether it be color contrast whether it be space no space you know like everything should have some form of contrast in it that's all said yeah now yeah yeah that is that is actually something when you were talking about like doing you've done a lot of different gigs and it's trying to drive it back to the one true love which is like uh with the the the sci-fi just did i want to do feature films but it's surviving in the industry is a thing yeah and so yeah you know it's like do you say no to the opportunity you're like but i might learn something really

cool and i might meet somebody really cool but i'm always trying to drive it back to like I don't feature films like that's what I was born I was put on this earth to do that thing right and I firmly believe that yeah I mean because that I'm personally in the same boat you know I'm doing a lot of corporate interviews right now it's like I've I've only I was the second unit DP on one feature and I was like you know close but people offer you know like AC jobs camera camera operating's great um but uh I was wondering from your perspective like how has has being, you know, an AC, you know, doing early like 3D work on like Alita and shit, um, acing. How does being kind of a, uh, multifaceted sort of, um, Swiss army knife of a,

of an individual help and hurt you because I think I got the same advice you got, which was like, you need to pick one thing or else no one will take you seriously. Um, but like you said, you still need to work. Yeah, I mean, so Alita was recently, well, I was a camera operator for the motion capture, for pickups for motion capture on Alita. And then we did that while we were doing Avatar. So I was at a camera operator for Avatar 2 and 3 and then also for Alita. I've never been a proper camera assistant.

So I started pulling focus. Well, I mean, like on the DVX and, whatnot. I forgot. How big was that chip? Was that like a one third? So then it was like the 5D and then now we're shooting a 16 by 9 crop of Vista vision essentially. And it's like, whoa. And so I did that for years. So I just learned to pull focus that way. And then when I had the opportunity to operate reality TV, then I went back to like the F900, which was one-third or two-thirds inch. I'm going to say two-third.

Maybe it was a one-inch. Yeah. So it was small. So then I was like, well, this is like easy. You know, so then I go back to that. So as far as pulling focus goes, like, I just got very intuitive just doing it for myself, but I've never been a proper camera assistant. So I think the thing that, the thing that hurt me was maybe not coming up through the

ranks and that maybe if I had come up through the ranks and been a camera assistant as just like a stepping stone but then I meet people who have done that you know and they're I mean it's like no matter what there's going to be like a ying and a yang to every choice we make in the industry so I don't regret anything I just knew that I wanted to shoot because I started shooting when I was 10 right um writing and directing and editing my own movies and whatnot so I moved to L.A. And I was like, well, I just want to keep doing that. Like, I don't want to go work at Panavition. Like, I want to get a job, any job that will keep the lights on. And then on the weekends, I'm going to go and make short films with my friends. And so I just kept doing that. And then people

knew me as like, well, you're at the day job thing. It was like, well, we need like a DP for this like small thing that doesn't pay. And they're like, well, Nathan, he's DP. He shoots all the time. And it's like, yeah, I mean, I do shoot like all the time. And then gradually I was able to like just only get paid to shoot. But doing all the different little thing, is like that I make a movie like good bad things where I find out what's our budget it's like oh we don't have one great I'll just do it and so then it was about creating the right circumstance for me to not lose my mind trying to do every job so it's like let's just take more time but yeah I mean it's just like that was the conversation with the director in good bad things

I'm Shane Stanger It's like if you just give me the time Like yeah like I can do like I'll gaff it Okay grip it Let's just have conversations And like have fun doing it Yeah

You know I think that's the other side of it But Yeah that's the only thing like In the darkest hours Of this career I go like man Maybe if I would have like

You know There's like that bureaucratic camera game I guess that you could play where it's like you work at Panavision and it become a loader and then you become a second and then you become a first and then you become a camera operator

and then maybe by the time you're 70 you'll be a DP but it's like but every time you have to break through that permission structure yeah so it's like I don't know I don't really see I mean how do you feel about it I did kind of the same thing you did

where I just wanted to start I when I was younger up until it's like 27 very impatient and I and I had what at this point in my life I can consider undue confidence coupled with well-meaning you know I knew roughly what I was doing but not but I didn't and so yeah I did the same thing I was like I'd rather be making stuff than doing something thing I hate. I mean, that's one of the reasons why I got into filmmaking in general is like, if I get a job as a fucking accountant, I'm going to blow my brains out. And maybe that would create a more comfortable lifestyle for me. But like, I am stubborn and was just like, you know what, I'm going to do the thing I love. And then, you know, worst case scenario, I can go back to bartending or whatever. But like, I, for me personally, like, creative fulfillment, superseded having a nice new car or, you know, watches or what it's, you know.

Yeah, I was still, I'm sorry. Oh, I was just going to say, but I don't, I look back on mistakes often and, and feel bad about it. Because it's, you know, I was my own worst enemy in many ways, but I didn't know it at the time. So how was I supposed to, you know, I wasn't listening to anyone. And if I got so much great advice and I ignored it because I was like, well, you don't, I got to meet with the, uh, I said this in a different podcast, I think, but I got to meet with like the president of ABC when I was working there. Yeah. And he was trying to help me out. And I was trying to be cool.

So I'm asking him about, you know, his work is like owning a winery and shit. And he's like, well, what do you want to do? And I was like, yeah, probably DP anyway. What are you? And like, you know, just didn't. I had. I, I, I don't. I almost got to work in the art department of criminal minds on accident.

And I did for like a few weeks before I had to go back to working at ABC. And stuff like that where they were like, hey, we'll keep you on. And I was like, no, I'm a DP. You know, it's like maybe it would have been smarter to hang out and just do that for a while, you know, and build connections in there. And then whatever. No, you're killing it. Did all the right decisions.

And it's led you to this. and then life is good. Yeah. Yeah, it can drive me nuts thinking about those conversations. Because, yeah, I mean, it's just like at an opportunity, I had a really famous reality TV director go, like, you can be my guy. Just come and I'm like, I want to go do movies. Right. And I knew it's like, he's so good.

He'll never go do movies. He's too good at this. He's the best. He's the best at this. Like, this is his calling. And I'm going like, it's not my call. hauling. Yeah.

It's like, yeah, maybe financially irresponsible to turn down those opportunities, but also it's like we can't deny the fire, you know, it's like, yeah. I was going to say for me that, like even working in that art department is when I started, I think I read that you kind of had a similar thing. It was like I just wanted to make movies. I didn't choose DP off rip. I didn't necessarily want to direct, but I just wanted to be in the mix. And I think when I was 20, when that gig came around, that would have put me in the mix

and then I probably would have had a better eye on options, you know, and it would have been working on actual television versus, you know, going back and making the shitting music videos and ads for local companies and whatever, which are cool in educational. in their own right but you know when you're close and then you're not close it's more it's more drastic of a contrast yeah there's something to be said for just kind of being like around it that was like yeah I'm working in the art department but I'm also observing you know like how it's really done that was the coolest thing about the early 3D jobs that I had that was the first time where I was like on a real set so I did reality TV then I found myself on these like the biggest movies in the

world being made and then I went back to reality TV Yeah. And I was like, I'll all get back there. Yeah. Was that Garrett Warren, who kind of like got you on to those bigger, you know, the avatars and all that? Garrett got me on to Avatar. But initially, it was Vince Toto, who was a very talented cinematographer.

He did a lot of motion capture, or not motion capture, motion control, VFX work, like Air Force One and some other cool movies. And he was the Stereographer for that the Judge Dread 3D movie. That was also Anthony Dodd Mantle. Yes. He did Dread.

Red 3D in South Africa. And Bishaw. So yeah, so Vince was a mentor of mine early on and he got me this interview over at Cameron Pace and I had no idea what I was interviewing for. I was so young, dude. I showed up in a suit and went to time to a camera house.

like I had my resume in a manila envelope which had nothing on it and um and it was like a bit of a madhouse I walked in and they were like are you the new guy and I'm like yeah yeah and they just put me to work on Transformers 3 and it was just you just got right into it and I did that for a couple years just being a 3D camera tech so like all these experienced camera assistance are coming in but we're working with the gear all day every day so we knew it really well so then we had the opportunity to go to set and to sort of be camera assistance but for specifically for that stereo technology and so that was that was that opportunity but then again like I wanted to shoot and as we taught all the camera assistants how to use it then like cool the kids can stay at home right

so then all the best camera systems in the world were like we got this and I was like I don't want to clean toilets at the camera shop I want to go shoot and so I was like okay well I can either like wait for maybe another opportunity to be a camera assistant or I can go and be a camera operator on the real housewives of Orange County but and so then I went back into that so it was like five days a week shoot reality TV and then on the weekend it's like let's make an action movie you know on the 5d yeah that's kind of how and then avatar I met Garrett and uh all right I early late late 2014 on another science fiction project called Orphans of the Boyd and that was a title great title right uh and yeah he walked up to me he saw me light for the first half

of the day he came up to me at lunch he handed me his phone he goes like i like what you do put your phone on my number or put your number of my phone and um and then i shot for him for 10 years and he brought me into Avatar and I did Mortal Kombat with him and a bunch of cool projects. Yeah, Garrett's a visionary. Yeah. I was wondering, I know you didn't go to a traditional film school, but I was wondering if you could elucidate me on the film school of James Cameron. That is a great question, because that's every day. Yeah. Yeah, dude. It's awesome. I don't judge successful celebrities you know i've been privileged to work for a number of them and the people that the public loves to talk shit on you know there's always some store but like you know i don't know

say what you want but like l i d pd ellen degenerous it's like i had a great time you know it's like it's interesting you think about you or i devoting our life to a craft and then suddenly finding ourselves as the head of like a Fortune 500 company that's what it's like for these people they show up and there are thousands of people whose jobs depend on them they didn't sign up for that part of it so they're just like trying to stay in the creative pocket that got them there and so with James Cameron or Jim as he prefers to be called um there's just like it's work for me my whole life and this is how it is and it's it's he knows your job better than you most of the time um he wants to he needs to vet everything he wants to talk through every problem um but you know

it's like little things like i remember a guy coming out with an arrow like here and he's like and this is motion capture so that arrow is going to be replaced right but it's like no we commit to everything it's like we're not shooting it like it's a cg and it's like this is real This is all real now. We're shooting the real movie now and then we'll put this facade over it later. So that arrow needs to be like one inch higher and I go, what? You know, like, because now we have to send that guy back to a wardrobe and then that arrow has to be resented and then he needs to be recalibrated to come back out in the space. So moving the arrow isn't as simple as just like, he'll be back on 30 seconds.

It's like probably 15 minutes for that guy to come back and we're going to wait to shoot until that happens. So like, why is that? He's like, well, that's a glancing blow. He's like, that they can pull that arrow out, but he's going to pierce the aorta effect. It's like one inch. I'm like, you know, anatomy too? And he's just like, yeah, yeah. It's like, it's important, you know.

It's like, that kills it. Dead? Alive. Yes, alive. And that's everything. You know, he asked me to adjust a camera. I was in charge of all of the fixed perspective cameras on all the creatures. So early on in pre-production, he told Garrett for the action unit that he wanted it to look like these kids had go-pros attached to these sea creatures.

He's like, we're watching. And so part of pre-production was like we were watching every GoPro people are awesome montage clip and just like all that stuff. And how do we capture the underwater stuff? It's like, go-pros. It's like, great. Where would they put the camera? How would they do it? So that was my job.

And so we did one shot of the kids getting pulled under water. And, you know, like I had headroom, but it must have been tight. And I showed to gym and he's like, you need to tilt up like 15 degrees. And I go, okay. So I go back over and, you know, like, I'm like, you know, like ref on it a little bit. And which is like, because they're like, we built this tank in Manhattan Beach Studios. And so for a lot of the underwater stuff, they're stationary, but we pushed water against them to simulate the effect of them being pulled through the water, right?

Sure. So you've got like 10 plus knots of water pushing against. So it's not just like a, you know, like a quarter 20 on a GoPro. It's like, no, all of my GoPro's had three points of contact with speed rail. With speed rail. And I couldn't fit speed rails with like 5 eighths pipe. So everything is like 5 eighths pipe with little dog collar coupling. So adjusted the camera is like a chore, you know, like to go through all of that to kind of like, man. So I go back and he goes like 15 degrees.

I'm like, yeah, 15 degrees. He goes, how did you measure it? Damn. He's like, how do you know it's 15 degrees then? I go, I don't. He goes, did I ask for 15 degrees? I'm like, you did. He's like, all right.

And I think he walked away. And I was like, I just felt like a piece of shit. So the next day I went and bought a. what's it called? Pro Tractor. Yeah, Pro Tractor. Target. I went to the Target over in Manhattan Beach before call and bought everything they had and

like their science. And then the next time he asked, he's like, all right, this needs to be like however many degrees. And I went and did it and I measured it. And he goes, eh? And I pulled it out in my head, my little AC pouch. I pulled it out. I was like, huh? And he's just like, eh.

Yeah. So, yeah, it was three years of that. yeah incredible yeah the the precision i feel like people like him or fincher or um even in kind of a weird way uh david lynch you know who are demanding over certain things kind of going back to your point of people given the wrong people shit is like they they're not asking to be a dick sometimes they are not those people but sometimes people are But usually you can tell when they don't know what they're asking for. But when someone knows what they're asking for, but you don't realize that they know, that can be a very educational moment.

Yeah, that can be a dangerous moment. I learned it's okay to say I don't know. Yeah, that's like that kind of tapped into a greater philosophy that I have, especially again, like, you know, I've been fortunate to shoot the, you know, like some decent budget films. But most of my work has been just so, so small. And when you're working with a small budget, there's this inherent idea that you can't fail. Right. Because we only have so much money and we only have so much time.

And there's this pressure of like, we need to go in with this quarter million dollars and execute a feature film in 10 days. And it's got to be great. It's like failure. It's going to be a terrible movie. Of course it's going to be a terrible movie. But it's like if you shift the mentality and you be like, well, let's like utilize the democratization.

of technology to have fewer people doing more jobs which means we need to be a little bit smarter but who we hire you know I always call us like

I need my navy seals right I need my dudes or duets but I just need people who can be autonomous and can make great choices

and can handle a lot and I need time and then you've got to be free to fail and my favorite thing is to not my favorite thing but like I just love

the freedom of finishing a scene or a day's work and I like watching dailies and you watch and you go like this sucks yeah let's do me in tomorrow and it's like well how do we do it like let's figure it out let's figure we can totally figure this out because I don't think we need all day tomorrow so who's down to like come because it's like like if you're gonna complain to me about your 10 hour day or your 12 hour day and we're making a small passion project film it's like you need to go be like a cog in the union machine right go and be a second assistant camera for decam you know on the big movie if if what is most important to you is like my hours and

everything I'll never ask someone to like work 24 hours and then drive five hours home you know it's we're not talking about that we're talking about like the set's 20 minutes from our houses it's like can we come in an hour early tomorrow and set this up so that the first thing the actors do is we reshoot this scene like are the actors okay with that like they'd love another go like great well now we know the camera's better over here let's do it again and then like I'll pay for second meal let's go a little bit longer in the end of the day you know we'll get like some sushi delivered or something cool it's just like but like figure it out it's like okay to fail and that's like I saw Jim reshoot scenes 20 times on Avatar.

And it's just, he's like, the sun was in the wrong place because he's moving everything, right? He's like, so now with the sun here that means that I need to be here and I did like the way that person walked over. And then we would reshoot just like people within a scene where he's like, everyone's great except you. You suck. And you can do that with performance capture. So then we have this acting troupe act out what the first team did. So like what Zoe and all the big actors did. now we have sort of stud doubles walking where the other people did so that there's a point of

reference and then we just dayplay you know Stephen Lang he comes back for one day to get his performance can be like I just want to tweak just him so I don't need everybody and and that's how Jim would really utilize this performance capture world that he'd built but it's like to just like okay cool yeah it's 90% there it's 90% perfect I need to let's redo that actor's performance let's like let's redo this and it's like take some of that mentality to your smaller projects like make it good figure it out yeah the uh I had something else but then I got uh wrapped up in what you're saying and then I forgot uh um but I the follow question was going to be like what are some of those things that you've brought from those larger set experiences to your smaller

sets and and potentially vice versa because there's all I feel like there's always something to learn from kind of both sides of that coin yeah I mean the biggest one recently was again the film in Romania was a larger budget film and you know there was an expectation for just like a larger crew and I was like we're not making that movie you know like the director and I wanted 40 shooting days at least it's like so it's like so let's sacrifice some things and everyone was up in arms about not having a DIT not having like a video playback like guy like a dedicated guy I'm like, that's a luxury, you know, and we're not, we're not doing anything on this movie that, like, demands that.

Like, there's other technology. And we ended up just getting a transmitter that I put on, I think I put on the first ACs monitor that then created, like, a Wi-Fi output. Everyone has a phone, and we just did, like, unlimited number of streams. And so just, like, hair, makeup, wardrobe, like, everyone's on their iPad or their phone, like, watching what we're doing. And I'm like, great, solved. You know, it's like, I don't need to spend an insane amount of money to bring this guy

in a whole truck and it's like, eh, I don't want that. I want, I have more days of shooting or whatever, you know, like, reallocate that money. So that's, I like to shoot single cam, small crew, focused, you know, fewer people working harder, fewer people, the most talented people I can get operating. high level that's the environment that I like to work in and then you know in the smaller projects it's just being relaxed and being so gracious with because we're all doing a lot and if something doesn't work it's like great that didn't work that's fine like let's do it again tomorrow like we're shooting this movie in the Oregon coast in 2020 we shot all night long and I think

This is for the Lifetime Network. The crew was like maybe eight people, 12 people. And the sun's coming up. And it's a night scene. And then it's just like, well, let's try to rush to get. And this is like, is everyone okay coming back and doing this tomorrow? We just leave everything where it is. And so it's like, if you can just make that okay, yeah, we just put too much pressure on

ourselves, I think, on these smaller films. Yeah. Reasonable. That's actually, you reminded me what I forgot. uh was something that measure Schmidt not to just keep bringing him up but he's cool um but uh he mentioned that like it's important to your point to get it the way that it's supposed to be because no one watches the movie and went well you know at least they made their day sneak not an audience member in the world is watching that and going like oh that sucked but you know what

I know, I know that they were on time, so at least they did that. I love the expression when you're on set. If not now, then when? Yes. When does this magic? When does someone come down and go like, you now have time to do it the way it's supposed to be? It's like, well, when's that, that's never going to happen. Right.

Do make it happen. You say this is important. And then you have hard conversations. And then it's like, and if you're working with a great director, the hard conversation is up front where you go like we're not going to cover the scene we don't have time for that and that's like very finch but like where's the one spot we put the camera like gets it done like how do how do you get quality on a small scale and it's just like economy of motion yeah i love the blocking and um i'm always talking about this shot but in jaws um the scene that

takes place on the ferry where big long oneer that's it yep but the camera I think is maybe on eight feet of track and that's it like it's the camera doesn't move at all right but the talent comes to the camera and then the ferry turns like at least 180 if not 360 so the background's movies that's interesting and then what's the lead actor's name um paul anyway so then it's of pushing in for a close-up, he just, the blocking, Spielberg just blocks him closer to camera. And then the camera just pans with him to kind of, like, isolate him for a second. Then another character comes around and joins him. And then they kind of take a step away.

And now it's a two. So it's like, like, that's what I'm talking about. Like, if you take a little bit more time with your blocking, and now we can kind of do, you know, your coverage in this interesting way, you know? And then you're all kind of looking for that opportunity of like, how do we make the background move, like jobs? It's like, that's the secret sauce and that shot, right? So what's the element here that gives us that? I mean, those are the things. You ever listen to Deacons talk about location scouting for Fargo?

Potentially, but no, I don't. They don't have to top my head. This jumped out. I mean, I'm like, that's it. And it's, I don't know, I can't remember the guy's the lead actor from Shameless and the guy who hires them to kill his wife. his office has the freeway behind it so that every time you're looking at him it's just this chaos of traffic behind it right and it's like that's a it's interesting it's just visually interesting

so from like a very sort of baser artistic standpoint it's like it's cool but then story wise it's like this is a guy whose world is upside down and he just like can't get a breath and he's just making bad one bad choice after another so then you start to like okay this is how really starts to work like we're stacking these things that all adds to the why why are we doing this and you can easily sort of explain like why you're doing it and and it's a very it's just a simple shot you know it's a longoff but it's inherently dynamic yeah that uh that there are two things like spielberg obviously is the master of blocking and i and i've seen that he like figure he doesn't really shot let or he shotless but he doesn't like really really

right, draw anything out. It's like he'll get there on the day and then just like assemble the and he'll just do oneers like crazy. And I think the one thing that kind of quickly was the check mark of like there he is was the end of the fableman's, the tilt shot. You know what I'm talking about? The very last shot where they they readjust based on John Ford's advice and shit. And I was like, but that does speak to Spielberg's like mastery.

Just that little joke is. is such a great thing. But what's funny is I went to New York Film Academy before going to college. And I guess like the class before me, Spielberg's kid was in it. And throughout the time there, they really hammered home like how important a master was, a master shot. And, you know, there was like entire lessons that were like, all right, you got to make a whole film on a master shot. We were shooting 16mm. So it was easy to just let a ride, you know.

Um, but difficult because obviously you only have seven minutes or four minutes or however long one of those reals was. Um, but, uh, we all show our movies. And the professor was like, all right, you want to know what, uh, Spielberg's kid did? That was amazing that none of you did. And we were like what? And they were like, he had an intro. There was an intro to his short. Not like a, not like a, not like a here's what it is, but like there was a, a sense, ostensibly pre credit. Like, a. the first minute or whatever set up the film and then there was like title card and then the film and I was like that is fascinating because I don't think

I've ever seen a student film how does every student film start fucking alarm clock right it's just every time and they were just like no like set up the scene if it's a short film set up like the first act

is that opening thing and then two and three are the film And if you just put a title card in the middle, it feels like a very cohesive project. And I believe I have done that in almost everything in the past 20 years. Yeah. It's like set the scene with that intro. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. You're establishing tone. Yeah, that opening statement. Same thing with like following, like Chris Nolan's following. That's how he did, you know, the first scene was like really polished. So he tricks everyone into believing he's good at his job. And then the rest of it's handheld on rooftops because that's the budget, you know. You got to hook him because that's everything.

I remember that with writing too. It's like that first sentence. First sentence to be in. I'm sorry. I have to keep reading. You got to hook him in. I love him. I believe in America happens up for black.

And then he come in. You're like, I'm listening. I'm intrigued. Yeah. The, uh, what was it going to say? Oh, I. did see two to two i know we're coming up on time so i'll let you go here soon but um the did did i read this correctly that because i think you and i again had a similar

ubering that like it was the k y jackass era that really got you going yeah yeah that kicked it all off yeah dude corey lay them and you could listen to this podcast cori um yeah my neighborhood friends were skaters and i couldn't skate so i was relegated to begin yeah right so I'm the camera guy and then it was like well let's make movies and so then that group they wanted to make more skater movies and so that my buddy grason and I started making star Wars fan films and figuring out just everything there and that was crazy one of my favorite breakthroughs was when we learned chroma keying like at early after effects and so we set up he painted a whole wall grace and

painted a whole wall blue in his parents garage and so that was our screen and um but then i needed at the background plate we wanted to do like a speederback so we took a bicycle down and we um put the bicycle in front of it and then put the camera sort of flat to the bicycle and then you're like like i think maybe it took like a leaf blower to blow our hair so it looked like this but then i was like so what how can we get the motion blur for the plate so we took the tripod in the in the backyard in the forest I think and we got underneath it and then we just spun the tripod as fast as we could yeah hell yeah it's like a Scooby-Doo background that just is the same thing over and over it can um but yeah that's fun um tell me if you remember do you remember a lamb dv yeah

because i remember making the same thing making the star wars films and finally because i couldn't afford after effects or i didn't have it or whatever or like the tracking was bad and being able to have a LAMDV to make the lightsabers, you could just really easily track the lightsabers in a LAMDV. And now it's called, it still exists, but it's called something else now. I can't remember.

That is a blast from the past, Kenny. Like, you're blowing my mind. Yeah. I remember to do that for gunshot muzzle flashes, lightsaber, dust hits,

like all that stuff. Yeah. I totally. Yep. Wow. I haven't thought about that in age. But yes, I absolutely use that software. It was funny because the only reason I remember that at all is because like a couple

years ago, I had to interview the company that now that became that AlamDB became. And I was interviewing about this software and I was just like, yeah, cool, cool, you know, whatever. Like this, you know, nice little beginner intro to after effects, cool, right on. And then when I got off the call with them. I just did a little extra research I was like oh fuck I used this like when I was a kid

why damn it I could have given him way more props yeah I was still up my own ass about it that I like game change your technology yeah yeah I mean I remember us

we were like it was so with no YouTube right so cool to talk to like you remember what that's like where you're literally like you're figuring it's just like You have to figure out everything. And it's like, well, I know that this camera connects to a computer, but we don't know how.

And I had a PC, so I didn't have firewire. They had, well, I had, okay, because I remember that. It was like, what is 1394A? Do you remember that? And then we were trying to figure out what that cable was, but I had a PC and I was able to connect it for some reason. Maybe we had to put a card. You could get like a, but if you had like a gateway or a Dell or whatever, it just didn't have any PCIE slots so you couldn't go.

So I ended up having, I built a gaming PC because I was playing CounterStrike at the time. Good old 1.5, 1.6. And I had at that point PCIE slots. But I used to have to go to my buddy's house who had a Mac and dump all the tapes. I forgot if it was like if Grayson got a Micron and then eventually we got a compact Brasario. Yeah. Remember those? Yeah.

And I feel like it had one on the back. But yeah, because yeah, you're definitely right though, because it was like. like why yeah we just don't have what it needs to plug in but yeah man well that's when you had to edit in camera too yep before you could figure that out it was just run it and you'd always you'd always catch the beginning of the word action you know soon and then the scene would start or and then also remember like if you would also we were sitting on VHS there would be those like few interlaced frames of takes that like the previous takes oh that you'd tape over yeah because you would just try to rewind because you're editing so there'd be like

and then the take would start yep yeah yeah okay this actually brings up something that I hope I hope younger filmmakers are listening to this one because this is all old men screaming at clouds but I think it's important I like everyone to your earlier point about everyone like freaking out about lenses and stuff like cameras specifically I'm like the fact that you have 24p and you're shooting to SD cards is enough Like that one of the biggest things was when I had the Sony handy cam that was high eight and it had a feature where you could Uh, rewind to the previous take. Really?

And that was enormous because it, it avoided that weird three frame problem that you had trying to figure out the exact frame to stop on on the on the tape deck. I remember that it would go and we would go past it and then it would go frame by frame and you would want to stop at that. Yes. And it's like, you don't have to deal with that. anymore you know you can some of these cameras you can wirelessly send the clip to your phone like it's it's i hate to be the guy who's like you have it so easy now but it's like you it again to your initial point like it frees you up to be creative like the gear used to be in the way all the time and now it's not and but unfortunately new gear is fun yeah new things are exciting

new tech is exciting i love it i'm a nerd but it definitely makes it harder i think for younger people to get out of their own way and be creative versus thinking like, oh, you know, because every, I think every artist has the issue of what Stephen Pressfield calls the, it's a book called The War of Art and he calls it this thing, resistance. And it's a nefarious force that basically says, you can't start until, you know, so people go, I can't, I'm a filmmaker, but I, but I can't start until. I get this camera or until I go to film school or whatever and you just it's you're the only one in here in your brain you're telling you you can't start there's no force telling you you can't start

or telling you that you're not good enough or whatever it's like failure is good and to put everything on yourself you know so many people try to have their first feature film or short film be some masterpiece that is going to get a bunch of awards and stuff and it's like better to just make make it within your means and have it be a piece of shit or maybe like a decent film that people are like

oh that was pretty good then to put all that on yourself and dive a coronary early. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm guilty of it. I'm talking.

Oh, me too. Yeah. And I started doing this motorcycle vlog. And, um, and, um, I think principally because I'm trying to just force myself to not care.

You know, as I'm like, well, you're the cinematographer. Of course, your vlog is going to look awesome. I was just watching Daileys this morning and like, it's terrible. But the whole point of the exercise was like to just do it. And I'm like, yeah, the next time I go out, I'll put the camera on a chest mount instead of the hell of it mount. You know, it's just like, I don't like the way that looks. Great. I don't change it next time.

even stuff like vlogs like that osmo pocket three it's amazing crazy so good like use that you know to make you let alone a vlog you know make your movie on that like great stabilization dynamic range is pretty decent you know it's real small you can mount it to anything yep yeah no i love it i really love it yeah wrapping up though i i speaking of gear you know um you shot good bad things on an r5 C, Sigma, Primes, L-series, Zoom, which I've always been afraid of the L-series. I don't know why. RF, the RF. Is it still L-series? It's the new R.

L just means they're nice, they're nice, range. But yeah, the RF ones. And I was wondering what were some of those things that you did to ensure, I know you said like taking extra time, but to ensure that using that prosumer gear, which again looks incredible no matter what,

but to make it look its best. I know your lighting kit was also pretty sparse. Yeah. Yeah, if I can watch blocking, you know, if there's a blocking. And then Shane was really open to me suggesting, like, where to kind of block to. And then I only had a couple lights. So it's like, you know, single source approach. It's like, okay, I'm going to have like there's going to be a singular direction of light.

So the camera should be here to sort of like see that the best way. which means let's kind of block it on that side of the house. And then, you know, it's just like little moments where could you kind of open up to camera a little bit, you know, because this will be a lockoff. And then if you start kind of watching the rehearsal, you go like, probably not a good idea to ask that actor in that emotional state to technically perform for me. And that's when I go like, that's when I need to move the camera. so just kind of being aware because the most important thing because this is you good bad things is not like an action movie and that's not a set piece movie so our biggest asset is authentic performance so there were totally times but it's like hey could you do this for me and can you cheat that and blah blah blah but as much as possible

it's like how could I stay out of their way um so that it could just be real and if you get a chance to see the film i mean like danny's relationship with brett dire plays his best friend of the film i mean like that was just real um those guys are still best friends at this day and so it's just allowing the authenticity to occur as much as possible staying out of the way trying not to be um what's his name light metering in front of christian Bail. Oh, dude, I was literally just about to say, you don't want to be that guy. And I know who that guy is, and I'm not going to name him just so people don't.

Right. I do too. Yeah. He's, uh, it's funny. Because when I found out who it was, I was like, oh, yeah. Well, yeah. Oh, I know. And here's the thing.

I really liked that Terminator. Yeah, it's cool. He did a great job on it. Yeah. It's great. It looks great. It looks awesome. Yeah.

But, yeah, a little emotional EQ on his part. or I, EQ, whatever, you would have gone a long way and probably kept his career going a little longer than he has since pivoted to, right? Yeah, so don't be that guy. And yeah, just like create a safe space. And that's why the small camera is awesome and not having a lot of lights is awesome. You find yourself turning off more lights then? I love Canon cameras

Canon cameras love light I think Sony cameras look pretty good with like a light bulb but honestly like I I try to most of my network

I actually shot at 400 ISO I do the same trick with my C500 because then it cleans up those blacks immediately yeah and there was there was times because it has like a little it recalibrates the sensor at 3200

can change the base to 3200 and there were moments for sure um on the r5c the r5c where for some reason i think i had to shoot at like a 2-8 maybe probably because the lens and i wanted that focal length and so it's like okay because i think my primes at a one-four were like 35 the 50 um and i just never really used the 85 or the 105 that much it's mostly the 35 and the 50 um so that it's like well if i go okay i want to shoot in the zoom so i have to be a 2-8. I'm like, 3,200.

And it looks... But yeah, if I can, I was pushing light in. So, no, I was still using like the 600X at night and turning all the house lights on and putting every stidara tube that I had in the back,

you know, like really just like cranking it. Yeah, because I knew that's like, if it looks too bright now, fine. You know, I'd rather have tube right now because I'm shooting 12-bit raw.

It's like, I'll bring this side. sucker down like it look real nice you know in the grade yeah yeah if as long as the ratios are good you know it can be a nuke in there i mean that's the way that we used to shoot on film right when you had fucking 100 speed film like it looked ridiculous on set i know good ratios i was like man it's everything is just so like did you see the um uh the new gladiator as which is like the trailer i saw the trailer where people were coming after john mathis and were like why is it so saw like there's no contrast anymore did you see this like argument yeah he's outdoors

well yeah I mean but like I kind of agree though a little bit you know but I feel that's a film thing though like I think that we we did have stronger ratios on film because oh sure you have like I have to have like light but with digital it's kind of this like you turn the camera on you like it looks pretty good and you know like yeah it's an Alexa it looks great if you do nothing yeah like but you should do like you know back your ISO off and um Yeah. No, I like shooting at 400. Do you find that, I agree with you. Do you find that, I'm just thinking about that thought of like, you turn on the camera and it looks good.

And I could go on a whole rant again for like students because half my job is education anyway. But older filmmakers tend to get, they had to work so hard to make it look good. And then now they can just turn on that camera. and it's 80%. And they're just like, you know what? I'm going to save the time. You know, I don't need to go that extra 10 because I just don't know about the like environment that they're in all the time. Like the feedback they're getting is like, are the people who are in charge of it oftentimes like, yeah, that 80% is perfect.

We don't need to spend that extra time or money to get the extra 20%. I mean, I legit just heard Ellswitt kind of say this about Ripley. where his process was like, you know, he's trying to figure out how to light the sequence outside of Rome with these soft boxes like, but I don't want it to look lit. And so the tops of the trees are glowing because they're near the crane.

Right. And so he's doing the DIY and he's bringing that down to hide it. And Zalian's like, he's like, no, no, no, I love it. You know, like it look. And it's just like, so, yeah, I mean, yeah, I don't know. I mean, in Garrett's whole thing, too, You know, when you shoot for Garrett, Garrett wants, he wants a strong image that he wants bold lighting, but also he wants to do 100 setups a day. Right.

So there's always that balance of like, well, what's more important to you? And I don't know if he has an answer. You know, it's like he wants everything. And it's like, okay, let's go for it. Let's like, let's do it all. Yeah. And so, yeah, it's. But then there was also the thing with the old guys, too, where we gave them the digital camera that was more sensitive and they were still lighting the old way.

And then that also looked really bad. Dude, I was rewatching Stargate Atlantis recently. And so if you watch Stargate SG1, first three seasons were 16 mil, then they go to 35. So there's not an insignificant, but like a decent quality bump there. And then season eight, they go to digital. I think it was the F900s. And then Stargate Atlantis started on those. Or maybe it was the Genesis.

Might have been the Panavision Genesis. But those first like two, three seasons of Atlantis look terrible. Same thing with the last seasons of SG1 because they were still lighting for film and everything was clipped. And then by the time they get to like, I think Atlantis went for five seasons. By the time they get to like four,

they finally realized like, we got to bring these ratios way down to like make it so that the sensor can handle what we're doing. because before and then every time they go outside you know it's like if one person's in the shadow and one person's in the sun they're complete they're white you know they're just gone and uh it's just it's been a fascinating thing to go back to because that's only like what 2005 like it's not that long ago no it it was such a pain in the ass to shoot on digital yeah yeah yeah you just said you really caught yeah I mean even the red one like super first of all I was lighting it to one 60. Everyone was. Yeah. You could only use daylight balance. Try tungsten and everything got mushy. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I'm excited for I really, really like shooting on the Alexa 35. Yeah. You can't blow that out. No. No. You can really kind of get wacky with it. And it just sort of hangs in there, which is fun because again, like, then I'm lighting really

emotionally and expressionistically. I'm just like, it's just nah and then you're like, that looks great. It's like, well, it's going to look great no matter what. It's just like, forget about that. And then just like, what's the, how can you make this just like, ah, visceral this visceral experience.

Yeah. I like it a lot. Yeah. That C400, that triple base ISO, I saw someone run a test against an FX6 and way cleaner at the high ISOs compared to the Sony. So I'm interested to see when that finally hits the market, like, if anyone's able to do anything interesting with that.

But again, I'm kind of on your side where it's like, I actually want to rate the thing lower because the higher you go, unless you're shooting at night or whatever, but like, it's easier to get lazy. But it's also easier to use cheaper fixtures, which is a thing that I don't want to like minimize. Like if you, if you have the budget to rent that C400 but can only afford like certain number of lights and you need a bunch of them shooting at higher ISOs, obviously, if they're really clean, allow you to use those less powerful fixtures. yep yeah no I think if there's it's always it this balance like if you can you know you should

but then I think I always think about like what's the sort of emotional common denominator of the scene and with early drones that you know the quality was poor and I'm like yeah but it's a camera in the sky yeah people are like they're wowed by the perspective first and foremost and you're not going to live in it long enough for them to go that's actually pretty noisy it's like go for nobody cares it's like it's just it's in this guy and that's the thing and um yeah i mean that's like but yeah the c400 um i might shoot uh shane's next movie on that i've been talking to canada about it they like what we did with the r5c and i was like what tell me more about this uh c 400 and i'll be really excited because um there's some sequences some huge sequences that happen at

night and um yeah and i would like to go sort of like full uh full orange sofa in the creator and it's just like how much of a space can you light with a couple aperture lights um because again then it's like it's what's the common denominator it's just this like scale if i could light up the desert at night with a couple of things and it's just like that's all people really care about they're sort of like wowed by this perspective yeah it might forgive you know like a few little things but yeah i'm excited to play with that camera and see what it can do as far as i'm aware right now there's only six yeah there was one here it was over do you know um matthew todd irving yeah yeah yeah i was talking him about it like it was it was here and like i was so close to getting

to play with it the uh i got to interview uh oran um a while ago and the two things that i took away from it because i don't know if you're on reddit but boy that really fucked up up the cinematography subreddit discourse because now everyone just and the entire internet is just like oh the only camera you need is an fx3 and then you're going to be the best filmmaker in the world but uh the two the two things that he mentioned that i was like all right i couldn't do that it's like one obviously they used a sick lens like you know that that really awesome anamorphic they only had like one of you know and they shot the whole thing on that one uh lens for the most part but one thing because i was like how do you make the sony like the sony image straight out of camera isn't necessarily the most flattering. Like, that's why everyone likes Canon because it's, you know, very pretty. But Canon can be a little, um, almost too pretty. Like it, like if I'm shooting a beauty commercial, I'm going to shoot it on Canada. If I'm shooting a sci-fi, maybe a, you know, Sony thing, but he was like, and I use this

trick now for everything almost compulsively and it's great is in resolve or whatever they used. They basically squeeze the entire image into two. Well, okay, this is what I do based on what he said. I'm not saying this is what he did, but basically you take the color warper and squeeze it to basically skin and cyan or whatever, you know, just complimentary and then dial it back so that it's not obviously a duo tone image. But if you put it to like 30%, it just moves all the colors. Because you know how film only has like it's like if I were to get, man, I'm really

blown out. Um, if on digital, you can see like every, you know, it's like a little patch of red here and a little orange and skin can look kind of, but on film, it squeezes all the colors together. He was saying that that was one thing that made the creator look that way was squeezing all of the vectors into similar, you know, similar colors became one and kind of evened everything out. And now I put that on fucking everything. And it's, uh, it's a great little trick. That's brilliant. Yeah. Yeah.

That's the sort of homogenization of color palette. Yeah. But not too much. Just enough that like everything still looks at color. It's supposed to be. but yeah because that's totally that's where you can sort of see where the makeup is starting to fail in a couple of spots in her skin

and you're like oh that's really cool that again I'll send you the you have result right oh yeah yeah okay I'll send I'll send you the power grade but uh I remember the first digital alien what was it covenant or Prometheus

one of them yeah maybe maybe yeah I could just there's a there's like a close up of Numi Rapace or whoever it was right or maybe it was um was Carla Johans the Charlize Theron whoever it was

she was a little something yeah yeah and you can see the makeup and I was like oh damn this is a crew that is shooting on digital for the first time and I that's what's his name uh

Ridley Scott yeah but the DP he's so good he'd been doing some digital work but it's just it's like when the makeup department potentially wasn't yeah you know they were used to the forgiveness yeah yeah not to blame them or anything I'm not trying to talk shit but I could just see it you know yep it's such tricky thing and you think it's like I it's I use diffusion filters forever and I stopped using diffusion filters when I figured out more about like what Warren's talking about like how to do it with the grade and yeah because like I just it's too much I want like a one 16th diffusion and it's

just like let's just do it kind of in the grade well I'll give you the the final tip that I still use and that is from Messerschmitt once again he said on the killer they used scatter the plugin because and I tested it against the filters I have it's fucking dead on yeah so and you can just you set they you know you can set if you want it to be accurate you can set the uh focal length that you used the strength you just pick what filter you want on the drop down and then obviously the nice thing because you're doing in a post you can mask out areas that you don't want it to be on that's and all that kind of thing um but it's a digital tool you don't have to use the exact focal length that you actually use dial it around you know fuck with it it just make it look

the way you want, you know? But yeah, I'm the same way. I stopped using diffusion like two years ago. Unless it's on like a cheaper camera, then maybe like a contrast filter sometimes is helpful to just bring up the shadows a little bit so the sensor can handle it. But yeah, I was so against like the fix it and post mentality until I started doing it myself. And I was like, oh, you can really save some time. As long as I'm doing it, I would never force anyone else to do it. But if I'm doing it, you know yeah it's a good brain to have you know what the expectation is yeah yeah save some time and then also just kind of like explore new creative depths yeah it is depths yeah there's a lot more we can do now yeah great well um i got to let you go because i got another interview coming up

but uh oh fuck i wanted to talk about being an asc vision mentee whatever we'll have you back on at some point and i would love that yeah and we'll we'll we'll keep chatting and definitely if you're ever in L.A., like, give me a shout and we'll have a beer's on. Yeah, I drive back tomorrow. Oh, fuck. All right. Well, yeah. Well, I'll come, I'll pop over. Let's go have a drink in Santa Monica. Perfect, brother. We'll, uh, we'll see you soon. Awesome. Kenny, nice to meet you, and this is great.

Awesome. Appreciate it, man. Later. See it. Frame and reference is an Albot production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so on Patreon by going to frame andrefpod.com, where you can get all the episodes and clicking the Patreon button. It's always appreciated, and as always, thanks for listening.