Frame & Reference Podcast - 159: "Big Door Prize" & "Fargo" DP Bella Gonzales

Episode Date: September 12, 2024

I'm pleased as punch to welcome the wonderful Bella Gonzales on the program this week to talk about her work on Fargo, The Big Door Prize, and SO much more! As always it's a great one this week, you're gonna love it. Enjoy! Visit https://www.frameandrefpod.com for everything F&R https://www.patreon.com/frameandrefpod Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coast's leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠⁠Filmtools.com⁠⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello, and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny Macbillan, and you're listening to Episode 159 with Bella Gonzalez, DP of the Big Door Prize, and Fargo. Enjoy. As I was like, this happens every fucking time. We'll be half hour into a conversation. And then I'm like, oh, I wonder if anyone cares. Because like, I don't know if you've heard this podcast, but it literally is just bullshit in for an hour. So it's like, might as well, you know, record.

Well, it's my speed. My speed. Definitely. But, yeah, the, the number of, like, I'm pretty tied into the, like, hospitality scene. Not because, like, I, I, like, my old roommates were all bar owners and stuff. And I used to work at Red Bull, so that, like, really tied me in. And I was talking to my friend, Devin, who helped found, like, death and co. Also, the var, you ever been to the varnish at Coles?

No. The speakeasy in the back of Coles in downtown? No, I don't even know where Coles is. Oh, okay. Well, don't worry about it. Yeah, it was like a speakeasy stable. But in any case, I was talking to her, and she was like, yeah, fucking business is so weird right now. Like, people aren't coming out.

And I was like, because the entire film industry is dead. And then she was like, I thought the strikes were over. And I was like, yeah. Yeah, but no one's writing anything. Like, all the studios are waiting to see what Iatsy does and the Teamsters do. And then she, like, stared at the ground. She went, this makes so much fucking sense. Yeah, no, seriously.

I mean, it's like a whole ecosystem, right? Our whole entertainment ecosystem that, like, you know, how much money we spend during when we're shooting? I mean, just like, you know, even gear or vendors or, I mean, you think about all the people that got affected by this. And I think about all the crew 100%. But, like, you know, as a DP that has formed connections with some of art. my vendors that I hold true to my heart, like, that was really hard for me. Because, you know, there's, if there's nothing for us, there's nothing for them, and they have to, like, you know, and the good people, the good ones have, like, paid their employees through

it and, like, really kept everybody afloat. And I have a lot of respect for that. But I think it definitely took a larger tool that I think probably people are calculating into effect, right? Just like that. Just like, it affects people outside of our industry. Yeah. And so I think it's weird. Like, anytime I hear the mainstream people, talking about our strike and what we want. And I find it so funny. I'm just like, you know, it's funny that we make, we're part of making things that everyone consumes and, you know, forms opinions on or, you know, attributes their life to.

And then all of a sudden people are kind of talking about our lives and how, you know, what we want out of them. And I find that really interesting. And just hearing about what people kind of think. And usually people are like, yeah, of course they deserve that. Of course that's right. So it's just nice. to you know hear everybody else from the outside yeah i the one thing i fully agree with you the one

thing that always confuses me is when angry people it's only online you never well that's not true actually i did one guy was spouting off the other day at uh tini's and like just like dude he works at ESPN and he was just like the angriest man all you californians are sending all your fucking and i was like dude but like what are you mad about and also that's not true california is the fourth stickiest state in the union. You're complaining about people who moved here and then left. Yeah. All my friends from Texas have moved here and the strikes happened was straight back to Texas and then they were like, I'm never leaving Austin. And then she came straight back when the work was here. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it is kind of like one of those places. I mean, that's our industry that

like think about all the states. Like, you know, I've been in the industry since I was 17 years old. And I've seen states blow up and, you know, all you're doing is working in that state, New Mexico, Louisiana. Like, all you're doing is working there. And then all of a sudden, the next place, be kinds come of the hot spot. Atlanta now, you know, like I, without trying, did, just booked three jobs in a row in Atlanta. And that just became my year and a half, two years just ended up being here. And so it was the place to be for me. So like, you know, our industry changes like that. And I think people before this maybe thought like Hollywood was immune because it's like the center staple. And I think nowhere is immune is the reality. And I think if anything, I like got hit more

being the example, right, of what, you know, we're trying to do and what we're trying to get it and whatever. But I have hope. I think our industry will change. I think there's, you know, as generations of people go through, I mean, things already changed, right? Like, whenever I go onto a set with a newer generation of filmmakers, you can already feel the difference in the density in the room, in the air in the room, in the ambience, you know,

and how sets are run. And so I feel like that will change. grow and that's all I can hope for and you know that people like me and my generation of people that will kind of push forward will push like just a more livable kind of industry because I think that we have the best job on the face of the earth and I just think that you know we should be able to like love our job and and really work hard but also like get to live our life outside of that I think that's important see that's the thing that I was about to say was when you hear people who don't know saying like devaluing film workers because oh you guys just get to play around

all day like you why are you you know fighting for your rights you should be thankful that you're it's like with still like what grips like that's still manual labor like it's not you know yeah definitely i mean it's also just being for the union worker right like a general general sense of being there for the union workers i mean i try to keep up with different unions just to, like, see how the process goes and how they're, you know, what their bargaining looks like. And I just think it's good. It's good for us all to do. And I think in that way, we can support each other. And hopefully, you know, in that kind of camaraderie, it becomes more of an open conversation about things. But I get it. I mean, we, it's definitely a glitz and glam kind of

lifestyle from the outside, I think. And that's like Robert Downey. Robert Downey is glitz and glam. the rest of us 100%. You know, I still think people think that like someone, you know, was asking me about you know, like, job seems so glamorous but then the reality of it is is sometimes you're in a job and you're like

in the elements like exposed. It's like the hardest thing you've ever done. You're on mountains, you're on cliffs, you're in the sun, you know what I mean? For 12 hours. Sometimes for 12 hours. So sometimes the environment's a stage and sometimes it's not a stage

And I think that there's such a wide gamut of what you could do in this industry. I think about that all the time, like, being ready for that. So I think in that way, like, it's just so broad. But I can't expect anybody to understand. I think it's funny. I think, you know, I think it is nice when people do, when people do try and, like, put themselves in our shoes. And most of the time, I feel like people do. And also, I learned so much during the strike about different unions and, like, what they were asking for.

And some things I was like, that makes sense. Like, I've never even thought about that. You know, I sat down to dinner with the first AD and he kind of explained to me some of that stuff. And I, you know, it's always good. And like, through all this, we learn about each other and what we all need to kind of like thrive and survive. Yeah.

So I feel, I hope that now the benefit comes from all the hardness. Well, and I also, throughout everything you were saying, I have like these two tracks of thought where one, everything coming back, I think, is going to manifest itself in an industry that is more like it was in the 90s and early 2000s where we didn't have streaming and there wasn't 70 shows being shot, which is then going to result in potentially less gigs because less they, you know, but that kind of made me think when you were talking about like being on set with younger generations. who potentially came up with this expectation that all these jobs are going to be around, but also, you know, new technology moving so fast, new changes. Do you find that the old heads who have this institutional knowledge that have, you know, honed it over many years, that is so important and yet information is so freely available? Do you see the younger kids coming on going like, I know what the fuck I'm doing?

Or do you find them kind of deferring to these potential mentors, as it were? I like to think it's probably a mix of both. And I think that probably because my world is definitely a mix. I mean, I came up under very talented technicians that have been doing this since they were my age, my age ago. You know what I mean? And so, and I really value that. But I value filmmaking. I value the history of it.

All of that. But also, like, when these people teach you, there's something about that, right? Where then, you know, when you go on to your career and all these things that people have imparted on you are the reasons that you're successful, you have to kind of, you know, like, give them a nod and say, you know, they've been doing it this long and have all that experience for a reason. But I do think there's something about the accessibility of being able to make something and also the support of wanting to help people make things. I mean, you know, like I remember when I first got signed by my agent, the first job I got was a short film for Netflix. And I think it was like $2 million. And it was a 15-minute short film with an amazing director named Mariel Woods. And it was like an action romance.

So it was like a, you know, genre bending. But, you know, that was Netflix giving Mariel the money to make something. and make something great, you know, and giving her all the tools she would need. And I find that, like, I feel like that is a little bit more prominent now. I think right now, during this, after this strike is maybe a different period. But I know that when I was coming up, there were definitely a lot of opportunities like that. I know that HBO had a program like that as well. So I think those exists.

But beyond that, like, being able to just pick up a camera and make something. I mean, I know that, like, a lot of me and my friends bought, you know, a lot of us own 16-mill cameras. And my friend owns a black magic scanner. And, you know, so he's basically like our, he's our point person in L.A. You know, he's a, he was my best friend in high school and we kind of came up together. And I kind of one day, like, suggested to him that he should be a DIT or colorist. And then it literally just flew from there. And now he's a Daly's colorist at Company 3.

And I'm like so proud of him. But he owns a black magic standard. So, but all of this happened because we just wanted to be able to go shoot our music videos and short films on film. and not have to get insurance and like, you know, so it becomes buying like old Russian 16 mill cameras, you know, that's what he does and fixes them. And, you know, so I think that accessibility, that access to like, I mean, I read a lot of, like, I think I read a lot of reference books, a lot of lighting reference books and camera reference books and conversations, you know.

And I think like I have it on my iPad and I have it on my phone. And sometimes they're like situational lighting conversations, you know, what do you do when you're in a, you know, night exterior field and there's no ambience to supplement off? You know, and like, if I really need it, I can like pull up this book on my phone and look at, you know, some master that had that had come before me that had tips of the trade. So I think that like all of that really help me become a DP in the sense of like that new age DP, like all of that. that access that I had. But I also feel like it's important to give some, like, to have ultimate respect for this

industry and know that, like, it's such an opportunity to get to work with someone, like, of that caliber. Like, you know what I mean? I came up operating under Mitch Dubin when I did Fargo and he's just, he's Steven Spielberg's operator and he's just the most incredible man and operator. and I feel so privileged to have gotten to learn from him, and I find that that I harked back to every day. So I think, like, even if what gets you into this industry is that new age use, once you're in,

all the time that you get to spend with the people that have kind of been here and gone through it and survived and threatened, that's, like, really valuable, to me, the most valuable. What are some of those books that come to mind that you potentially would recommend to other people check out? Oh, man. I have to pull up the, I have the main one that I use on my phone. I think it's like lighting, sure, cinematographers or something. Film lighting. Oh.

Chris, do you have that book? Talks with Hollywood cinematographers and gaffers. Yeah. I love that book. I have three copies of this book because I have like a book I used to travel with. I have a home copy and then I have the digital copies and the digital copies are highlighted too. But like- So I love the Kindle.

Does that you can kick yourself out a PDF of all your highlights and just keep the cliff notes? You know, like I just think it's so good to, you know, think about, if anything, just the exercise of thinking about how other people are doing things. I think it's really important in like how you develop your own sensibilities. And luckily, like, I've got to do some of that. on set, but, like, that book has just some, like, iconic cinematographers and gaffers. And also, I find that, like, gaffers have so much insight into what was done and how they did things that, like, that really interests me. And, you know, I came up as a, I think, like, a camera side DP because I came up as a utility

and I operated. But now that I'm shooting, I really like the part that attracts me, I think, because it doesn't, it didn't come as naturally to me was the lighting. So, like, that's the thing that I try and that. study and be a student of. And also, it's the thing to me that's the most fun because I think the thing about how we do things is like, I feel like when you block a scene, in a weird way, it tells you how it should be shot.

But the lighting is just so up in the air of how you can do things. There's a hundred ways to do things. And I think there's so many new tools, but the techniques have been there, have been around. and I've been trude, like, trude tested, you know, techniques that we use. So I think it's always good, just like a little refresher. I used to give it like a skin through before I did every job, just to like, you know, really think about what, you know, how I like to do things and how other people like to do things. Yeah. I mean, during the pandemic when no one was working, that's why I started this podcast.

Just to steal early on, there was a lot of, you know, for surgery. people, they would, you know, who are beginners, not us, but what would you do in this situation? And it was something I had to go do and like, you know, or it was confused about. I would just, it was the perfect opportunity to pick experts' brains without being on set with them, you know? Oh my God. I think it's so great. I mean, I love, I love being on set. That is like, for me, being able to watch other people do their work is, it's something I've always loved. but like I really think all these podcasts and kind of interviews are just so and people are so generous with what they're doing now and I find that like that's I think kind of different a different industry that generosity of sharing and and I think it's inspirational you know it really makes you want to like do your best work and also at the same time you sometimes you listen to people that say I didn't really know how to do that or I struggled with that or I really needed help from my team with. that and I feel like those are really humbling conversations like where you know as a technician

sometimes I think you know you need a break um like I heard I heard I don't even know what DP it was I don't want to say I don't say the wrong name but I heard this rumor for someone I worked with that there was a DP that just said you know I have to use the bathroom every hour and a half and even if he didn't he just walked outside for five minutes just to like recalibrate and then walk back inside and not that I do that but it's like there's interesting things that things like that where you think about that, like other people might need, and it was like a huge DEP. It was like, other people might need to take a step away and just like think about something, you know, because our decision making is so quick. But I find that like all of those things,

I really take it into consideration because like no one's a machine, you know, but, but I think that like learning how to handle it in the best possible way is just so healthy. So I like just hearing other people deal with that stress. I think a healthy thing to learn, you know. Well, and the interview I just did, we were talking about how that was like the deacon's move would be he would just put his face in the eyepiece. And he's not even looking. He's just breathing and shaking, just trying to figure out what to do next, you know? Yeah, yeah.

He's just locked in. There's a book. Well, it's a whole like field of study that I believe is named Stephen Coulter. And it's, and the guy that he learned under has some crazy name. It's like, I can't even pronounce it. It's almost like the Hoytivan Hoytimo of like your first name and your last name. Yeah, yeah. Mechai, something like that.

But it's the study of flow states. Yeah. And so flow states basically have four elements. And there's like struggle, release, recovery, inspiration, something to that effect. And if you don't have that moment of walking away from whatever you're doing, you can't hit the flow state and especially I imagine on on you know an 80 day shoot for a feature or whatever if you don't have those moments whether it be five minutes or or an entire day your work will suffer because it's not that you're locked in and doing it at the highest level you know even hockey

players get to sit on the bench after a couple minutes yeah you know it's it's you you need that mental recovery where then the inspiration oh that's how I should should solve it where a lot of times when you're in there that it doesn't make you know filmmaking it doesn't matter anything yeah it's usually when you walk away and go into a different room that you go oh right and then and then you can go back to it 100% I mean I think for for me like the feet in features I feel that a lot I think TV because the schedule is so ever you know moving like you get really in that pace and you keep pressing forward right but with film with filmmaking with movies I feel like it's so intentional, right? Every frame you want it to be intentional as this whole piece.

And I remember I did this movie with director Steve Pink and it was a COVID movie bubbled at a summer camp called The Wheel. And we had this one scene and it was like a walk and talk. And I think, you know, we did a podcast about this. That's why I really remember it. And we did it like, we did like six shots. Like just nothing felt right. And in a movie that was so intentional, I mean, everything that we did was discussed and talked about and like all the operators knew like the feeling of what was going on right

in that moment but this was one of those situations where we probably were shooting for like 45 minutes and then we stopped for probably 45 minutes to just talk about what's not working there's just something about it you know they're just them to talking and arguing on this fight and I remember I just was like okay

whose perspective of is it like where are we who are we with And I remember like, okay, well, I think we're with this character. So let's just stay on this character the whole time. And he'll walk in front of her and she'll be in the background. She'll be out of focus. It's not about her. It's about how he's feeling in this moment.

And then all of a sudden, you do this one shot and that's the whole scene. Right. And it just took that 45 minutes of like, let's sit down and actually ask ourselves the question of what is the right move to make to tell the story. I find that those moments are like generally, really, I think that's that like, you know, that fall and then that come back in inspiration. It's like, you just need that. I think on TV I've learned to do those breaks in my head, like just mentally I just take like a minute because it's much harder to leave, you know, and then, but I think it really trained me like the TV element of it. It trained me to really like trust myself and go with the decisions I'm making and put my

back behind it. So that later, I'm not, you know, questioning myself or wondering if I should have done it another way. I'm just like, this was the way with the time I have and the equipment I have and the people around me, this is what I'm going to do, you know? Well, absolutely. And I think, too, like I've said it a bazillion times on this podcast, but like emotionally correct, you generally supersedes technically correct. And if you spend all your time trying to, to intellectualize your choices, it will slow you down and make you worse. Whereas if with enough practice, obviously, with enough reps, you can learn to trust yourself and know that your instinct is worth it and will result in a positive outcome versus when

you start off. I think it's way harder and you do end up doing the like, okay, step one, step two, you know. and then actually you can run instead of crawl. Definitely. I think in this industry, though, it's like one of those things where you need to be ready to run before you even know how to walk. Yeah. It's like one of those things where you have to be so ready for every opportunity given to you. I mean, that's been like the entire makeup of my career has just been opportunities that I'm like, I question if I'm ready for.

And then when I get there, there's no doubt in my mind that I have no, I have no other choice than. to do it and do it well and succeed. And I find that, like, that's been every step of my career, you know, every, every building block has kind of been like that. And so I feel like, you know, it's really important to, like, know yourself and trust yourself. But I think there's always going to be fear that next step forward. There's always going to be that fear.

And you just ultimately have to know that you have to believe in why you're there, you know, like the fact that whatever brought you there. It's because of this, you know, these values or tonal images or, you know, that you have in your head that you're there to bring. But I know that that's just like, again, it's just like you said, it's one of those things that just clicks one day, right? You just like, but I think it's a fake it till you make it type situation, especially when you're young. Yeah. You know, you're doing that anyways. I mean, there's a certain like bravado and energy that you have to bring to a show to instill confidence.

And I think it's a bravado coming from truth, right? Like, you have to believe that you know that you're going to say the best thing, offer the best solution. But I think a little bit of it is probably just convincing yourself, you know, by trusting yourself and knowing that it won't fail you. Yeah. You know, down the line. I mean, the thing that I always have to, like, remind myself up, well, also to your point, like, that's, I think people spend so much time working, I think. with no crew or alone or whatever, that when you're handed something bigger, you go, I can't, I don't know how to do that.

And then it's like, oh, but you get a gaffer and we have an AD. And it's like, okay, all right, I can, I can decentralize this command a little bit and focus on my, it's like the first time I ever officially had like a good gaffer, my, suddenly I was way more relaxed. Yeah, of course. I mean, it's that for me, it was the release of the A camera operator, right? Like, I was one of those people because I came up operating and I was, and I loved it so much. I love being, you know, I love being tied into the camera.

I love being so close to actors and being like, you know, tied in that way and it being in a stance. Like, I love that. I have a lot of respect for it. However, Mitch Dubin made me promise him that I would use a camera operator so I would keep the entity of an a camera operator in filmmaking as we know it so that, you know, that, you know, because and it's really important. it's a really important job. It goes beyond so much more beyond the job of just like panning and tilting and creating a great shot and executing it highly. That is half of the operator's job.

But half of it is running the set effectively and like pushing and pushing everybody to do their best work so that when you and the director, you know, you're like on to the, you're almost one stage ahead, you're one note ahead. They're either talking to actors and you're looking at what your next shot's going to be, if it's going to be the turnaround, how are you going to do that? You know, all these things that kind of push you forward to have an effective, successful day. Like, an A camera operator brings so much. So when I started having, you know, an A camera operator that I was using, you know, over and over, who understood me, understood my style, knows how to talk to a director, knows how to speak with

actors and like, you know, set themselves up for like a beautiful moment. to me that was game-changing and that really was like the next level for me in terms of having someone to collaborate with and that's really not a skill that we have naturally I think that everybody underestimates is like speaking with operators about what you want how to communicate what you want in a shot I think it sounds a lot easier than it is but it really is a skill And I think if you have operated before and you kind of understand how to like put the camera where you want to or what tool you need, it definitely helps. But I think, you know, trusting, trusting people and also like really effectively communicating, which is so important in this industry. But it's definitely like a practice and a skill.

And the more I work with DPs, like I just did a show and the two DPs I was working for, like they were both operating DPs. piece. And I'm not like that. And we would have conversations about it all the time. Like, they would be like, oh, I just wish I was like, you know, there. You know, like, because it's part of their process sitting, you know, at the camera in the room and looking around and kind of experiencing it. That's people's process. And mine is different. But, but I think I respect it heavily. I respect that other side of it. And I don't even understand how they do it, really. I've done one movie where I've operated and shot. And it was unbelievably difficult. So, But yeah, I think it's that whenever you hit those next steps, it's as hard as they get.

They also come with a little bit of relief because they come with support a team, tools, just things that make your life so much easier or harder because you have to execute harder things and you really have to start using your brain and learning things that like, how would you know? How would you know what head you should put on the techno crane for this setup? You know, like those are things that like when I first started shooting TV shows, you know, I understood how to put the camera into the right place. I understood how to light the show. I understood how to talk to people make deals. But I think when it came to like, okay, so we're going to use the 38 footer. Are we going to use the Scorpio? Or are we going to use the like, you know, like I just, those are things that you're not going to understand unless you're open to kind of having that and have someone with the access of knowledge. So like then when you work with. with that key grip that's like, oh, yeah, let me open that world to you of like why you would use each head and what the benefit is. Like, all those things make you better, make you a better technician with whoever you work

with. So I think that's the benefit. But I think, you know, I think it's a beautiful experience at any stage when you get to have the, they're big wins. Those are big wins. I remember, like, the first time I told myself, I'm never doing a job without a gaffer plus one. you know what I mean like that was like my big I was like I can't do this anymore I need Gaffer plus one and and now you know and those things go away but they the same principle applies to other things that you need on bigger shows right so it's it's all funny because I went to AFI and it and it all just feels like thesis film but on a bigger scale you know it all kind of has the same energy yeah on that note talk to me about the experience of making St. Paul I'm St.

That's so funny. I haven't heard that title as a long. You know, that was a really great experience for me because I had had the opportunity to work with my professor, Michael Pessa, on a movie over the summer before my second year when you make your thesis. And I was like a utility, I was like a shadow utility, but I really took to the camera team and they really took to me and they ended up like it just became this really beautiful thing where they all came and exchanged their time to work on my thesis because I had interned

and shadowed for them on this show and then a lot of them became really good friends of mine and worked with me in the future and one of the operators on that show got me into the union as a union camera operator. So it was like a really beautiful experience to that thesis film because it felt like this culmination in a lot of ways. You know, also, Jeff Webster was the gaffer on it, and he's the Gaffron Mandelorian now, and he did Legion, and it was just, it's this really crazy timepiece for me of, like, all my friends kind of coming together to make this movie, and I worked with director Al Kalik,

and, you know, we just, we wanted to make something, you know, it's funny, you know, what you want to make and what you make are different, but we wanted to make something kind of, I don't know, thought provoking and, you know, and I think weirdly, I feel like it was a movie that we made earlier and I feel like now it's just so, you know, it's so applicable. But I haven't seen in a long time to tell you to the truth, but it did feel like the culmination of that moment and the start of the next part of my career, you know, because then all the those people kind of worked with me on my first feature after that. So, you know, just like beautiful steps in the process. Yeah. Yeah, I, it's funny, every single DP that I've interviewed

who has gone to AFI has, like it does seem to, you know, back when I think we're roughly the same age, like back when we were kids, everyone's like, oh, you got to go to USC. And now I'm learning like, nah, it's pretty much AFI is the cheat code. Like, that seems to be how you jumpstart your career if you're if film school is for you yeah i mean i i didn't know if i wanted to go to films i realized i wanted to be in film when i was 17 and um i didn't quite know because i knew that i could go right into the industry i had that in so i could do that even though so young or i could go to film school and i went and did this movie my first full feature in the camera department was on this movie called shot collar and i remember i was like my life's mission that job was to

not only like figure out if this was my place in the world, like on set, but also ask people what they think about if I should go to school or not or what their experiences and what they did and if they regretted or if they liked it. And I got so many mixed opinions, but this is like classic film story. But like, you know, I'm 17. I don't know what everybody's doing. I'm just talking everybody about what they're doing. And every day I'm talking to this, you know, this man.

And every day I'm talking this man about films and, you know, music and life and I really enjoyed every conversation and then I would run away, you know, when I'd get a call in Milwaukee. And one day, I was talking to him about school and talking to him about USC. And he was like, yeah, you know, we might have to talk about that. Like, you know, he worked in the Peter Stark producing program. So, you know, like it was just one of those things. And then he ended up writing me a letter. So then I thought I wanted to go to U.S.

SC. And then, you know, and I didn't have, I went to city college, so I got my associate, but I didn't have my bachelor's. And another DP basically suggested to me that I go to AFI, which I didn't even know was a possibility because it's a grad school. Right. And so I was kind of like USC AFI. And when I applied to AFI and I went to my interview and it's so funny, they were like, you're too young. I was like 19 at the time when I applied. identify. You're too young. You haven't done enough school. You don't have enough experience. And I was sitting there like with a big smile on my face. Like yeah, yeah, yeah. And I got in. You're so right, Besty. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like, because my thing was I just knew that I knew that this was what I wanted to do. And I knew that that was a good place for me to be. And I, so I was 19 at AFI and it was crazy. And I think that they've up the age. And I think that that's good. But, uh, But yeah, it was like a wild experience. And so for me, I thought USC was it, right?

And then I met this guy that, you know, so I kind of thought that was the past. And then when I kind of got introduced to AFI and just how discipline oriented it is, I mean, I'm like, I'm not a very school, schoolie gal. Academia is not for you. No, definitely not. So like, but there's something weird about when you're going to school only about what you love. where it and that school is very academic I mean like when I was there there was like a lot of you know you made like a 200 page book about every film you made um with photometrics and you know story talk and technical prep and story prep and it was like it was a lot of that but I find when it's like something you love and you can like put yourself fully into it and I told myself I was if I was going to go to that school I was going to get the most out of it I possibly could um but like you know I think I think it's great I think either way is great

either going into the industry or going to school but I can tell you that I feel very lucky that like I started early and that I got to where I was in my career before the strike you know I feel I feel deeply for those people that were just starting to get into the industry didn't really get their foot quite in and then the strike happened

you know like um so I think if like you're one of those people, I think that school is really great because you're also, the best thing about it is you're meeting 250 people who automatically think of you as this, this role that you want to be. Yeah. You know, and when you leave school, that's like a really important thing to have people that believe in you and know that you're, you know, know that you're competent and like talented. And so I think it's, I think it's great. I really do. I'm excited to like maybe go back soon.

And it's been a long time. Yeah. Yeah, one of the worst things that you can do is leave any film school and go and I'm a filmmaker gosh, yes, like what part? Just in general.

But, you know, the thing is at AFI, you fail so hard all the time. Like, I say that on behalf of all people that went to AFI, like you fuck up so bad, you, sorry, you make worse mistakes. That's fine. You make the worst mistakes at AFI. I mean, like, it's so funny

because you, the first thing you do when I was there is you watch a real. You watch everyone's real, real day, right? So you get a feel for everybody and everyone's super talented. And then you watch their first cycle. Our first cycles are all so bad because you're all trying to flex on people and show your skill and you lose everything good about what you've ever done, right? Because you're trying to like be something you're not. And then by the end, it is like a beautiful thing. By the end, you start to see people being like, no, I'm just going to do what I want to do. You know, like the, you know, know but elevated and gone through some definite work and like learning and um but yeah i mean it's just

nice to see it also nice to see other people working that came on us you know came out of school with you my best friend is a dp also and she just shot a feature and so uh you know just really nice nice community yeah to your point about uh working young this is my nard war moment uh tell me about your relationship to this camera. Oh my God. My Maria RZ Pro 2, RZ 67 Pro 2. I'll tell you what, I had to put this fucker on. Because I can't tell you how many roles I've been through where I forgot to pull the dark

slide. So I need to like remove before flight thing. Yes, definitely. Yeah, no, that's good to have. I've definitely shot many a role in that camera. and just, you know, but that's part of film. Like, I always think that that's just, it wasn't meant to be. It's part of the charm.

It's part of the charm. Like, I talk about that all the time. I'm never, I'm never upset over a shot I've missed. I think it's like, they're beautiful moments. But I love that camera. That's so funny. I bought that camera from a famous portrait photographer that I'm forgetting his name when I was 17.

I, like, showed up to Venice to buy this camera off a guy from eBay, and he showed up and he was some famous portrait photographer and there was a role inside and I literally went home and I never developed it because I felt like I was 17. I felt like it was this invasion of privacy also I knew that I looked him up I knew he did nudes I was like I don't want to see

some movies are scary you know now I regret it but but I still have it I have it in L.A. It's like the funny thing is I just bought I just upgraded that camera for myself in Thailand I bought I bought him at me at 7

and then I returned to And then I bought, it was having issues, and I bought a Mamiya 6 autocrat, which is this, you know, the little square cameras. And I also bought up Plabell McKina. So, and that was kind of like my homage. My growing moment this year from that camera is like, I want a version of that camera that I can like take around with me because there was no bringing that camera to like the jungle. You know what I mean? I used to use street photography with this dumb thing. Me too. Me too. It's so funny because whenever you get that camera, you fall so head over heels in love with it because it is one of the best cameras of all time. I really do think that. And so you go, okay, I'm going to take it everywhere. And then your wrist starts just slowly breaking down. It's so funny because I'm like a, you know, I'm like five, three, you know, and I used to travel with my backpack like wherever I went for work with that camera, my Lyca. like probably a point and shoot and like four cameras in my back and probably a big polaroid like a peel apart Polaroid in my bag and just like you know rock down the street with like 60 pounds of cameras in my bag because i wanted that camera so badly you know what i mean but um i'm really excited to go back and shoot that camera at my house uh a lot of things have been really special that have been documented on that camera for yeah yeah some like album covers too and stuff of

like music videos I shot that I would maybe pop off like a Polaroid and then I'd, you know, give it, you know, I was shooting film sometimes and I'd like pop off like a little quick exposure test. Yeah. And then give it to them. And then all of a sudden I'm like, oh, that's so crazy. I, uh, you know how it's got the like, I don't have the, um, whatever these little connectors are for the strap. Yeah. Why the fuck? So, but I, uh, I got us on Ernie Ball, like, elastic guitar strap, and I put that on either side of it and just, like, bolted it down. Oh, that's awesome.

Because the elastic would kind of, like, give you a little extra forgiveness. Yeah. And I think Ernie Ball is the only company that makes elastic guitar straps. Yeah. But, yeah, that was my move carrying this dumb thing. Or just absolutely, like, if people have weird necks from looking at their phones, I've probably got a lump back there from just hanging this dumb thing off my neck. Well, do you use the top, do you use the pop, the top that pops open?

That's top finder. Okay, so mine has the, has like, the viewfinder. The viewfinder, the big old honkin, you know, parallax finder. Yeah. And that thing alone is like six pounds. Really? Yeah. And it's not like, you know, I think that that set up with that elastic strap is like

perfect, right? Because you're looking down. The other one is like, you're like this. So you're like. you know and at the time i mean i was operating you know i was carrying a camera all the time so i was like i can handle it now i you know i don't operate anymore so like i don't have that i don't have that strength inherently but um that's so funny i love that camera i really do that's bono it's yeah one of the best ever the the one thing that certainly took a while because i don't

think you experienced this with the viewfinder is having everything be backwards and like learn like trying to figure you know you want to go left and everything goes right you try to tilt and everything like being able to do that quickly I would always hand it to people

and be like first of all it looks 3D in there which is cool just to show people but then it's like I try to frame up a shot dude the word I tried to do it

I've got the waist level for my Nikon F2 yeah and so and obviously with the RZ you can just turn the back yeah to get a yeah but with the F2 you can't and trying to shoot that way, physically impossible.

No, forget it. But that's the best thing about that RZ-6-7 is that turnable back and also that multiple exposure lever. Yeah. Yours has that. I mean, like, that camera is like the best studio camera of all time. Yeah. Every studio portrait I feel like I've ever taken has been with that camera.

Yeah. No, Sam. And then now I have a Fuji film GFX 50s. awesome with the midacom 65.95 I think it is and that the look is pretty similar to the RZ

or like in a 6-7 format yeah yeah I love 6-7 6-7's my favorite that's why I got the Paul Bel Machina which I'm obsessed with in every way physically possible and also I just love that I got it in Thailand so it's like beautiful memories but I hadn't bought a camera in a really long time

I was, I, like, grew up buying cameras and then my love language is buying all my friends, their first film camera. That's my kind of, you know, sign of like, I really care about you. And, um, and so, you know, like, I, I just have had so many and I've, and I stopped. I think like, uh, you know, especially strike and also traveling, you learn that you can't bring every camera, a pelican can only hold so many. And even then, you know, like, when I went on location, on location on my last job,

I still brought six cameras. Like from my one, from Bangkok to Crowby, I still bought, I still brought six cameras. So, um, so, you know, it's an addiction is what it is,

an expensive addiction. Do you develop your stuff? I used, in college I did. Yeah. And now I just send it down to a, the dark room in San Clemente. But,

uh, there's actually on, on, on, Pico over here, there's apparently a really good icon. Oh, that who it is? Icon is my icon is shit. Oh, okay. Icon is if I have, if I had like, I develop

all my own film unless there's a role. Like I remember I shot Amberman Thunder's one of my really good friends. I've done a couple movies with her his movie and she had neat, she needed like publicity press photography and their team decided that I should do it. And I wouldn't, you know, shot all this film of her with my, you know, RZ and my Lika and everything. And I just decided icon is the best place, 100% if I had to send some film somewhere, that'd be where it is. So, but also I think like I really love, that's like my main, one of my main hobbies is developing and scanning. I found developing to be scary. I was, you know, I was fine at it.

But that's like the part that I'm totally willing to give to someone else to do. but I wish I had like a scanner, but printing was like I could spend hours in the dark room just printing. I'm going to tell you something. Yes, please. Intrepid. Do you know the company Intrepid? Intrepid makes a compact and larger 35, 120 and, you know, large format.

Did you buy it? You could buy the large format backs. And it's, it fits into a box about this big. It's the world's most compact in larger. Oh, wonderful. And I just found, I found it in Thailand. I desperately won an intrepid large format camera, a four by five. That's my next purchase.

So, and I stumbled upon that. And I was like, okay, so now I need the intrepid four by five and I need this comeback enlarger, sick, sick. Because, you know, like, I grew up doing all of that with my dad, like, from when I was a young kid. That's where I think my love for all of this came, really, from developing and enlarging. And so that's my next thing is I haven't enlarged in a really long time. But if you're telling me I can do it on that scale and fold it into a box and keep it

somewhere, I'm in. So check it out. Yeah, I literally just wrote it down. I grew up, you can't see it. I grew up in the Bay Area. And so obviously Ansel Adams was very prominent more so than just any one being in a photography, because he was, you know, Yosemite and all that. Yeah.

And, yeah, finally going there and shooting like black and white and doing it made me want a four by five. I just saw a video of a guy, I don't know where he was, but he was doing wet plate. And it was like, it was like an eight foot by six foot glass. And I was just like, holy crap. And the whole comment's like, where do you buy that? And they're like, he did. What are you talking about? Yeah.

Those, those are insane setups. I respected so much. I know me like I am a hobby. I'm like a hobbyist like that. like I would invest all my money and do it. I just, I know, I'm trying to, I stop myself at all points. Like the peel apart Polaroid, I was on that journey for a long time. I still have a bunch, but it's, it's so expensive and heartbreaking and I can't do another

heartbreaking, you know, like developing your film is already, like you said, can be heartbreaking, even though I think that every time I've like messed up my film, it's been the best thing that ever happened, but, but yeah, webplay, tinty, all, you know, all forms with like chemistry on the go. I think I'm out, but I'm very interested. But yeah, I want a large format camera too. Even though, you know, taking it, I'm really trying to shoot more photos on set.

Just even for the future, you know, I don't do it at the time because we can't do anything, you know. And it's hard. It's hard to get that moment. But I shot a lot in my last job. And I really just like, you know, I bought that Dune Insights book. It's right there.

it's a great book like I love that I think it's beautiful the way they formatted it is gorgeous but I think like that's the dream right like having that kind of interdisciplinary coming together to make that oh don't break that that's not mine this one yes the Jeff Bridges book with his wide looks so good and I love a wide looks I mean this yeah I shooting the the the GFX in pan mode, even though technically it's not, like, but just getting this book, I was like, oh my God, I kind of just want to shoot. But you're so right, like being able to put something like this together with the Dune book or any of those. Just even for yourself. You know, me and my friends used to do it all the time because we used to shoot so much film. We're young and dumb.

And just like, you know, rolling through it. And now I'm like more careful about it. But I think they're important like timepieces in our life too and where we are as artists and how our eye develops and, you know, like ultimately a goal of mine, of course, one day is like ultimately make some book, whether it's like paired to some movie or a TV show or, um, but I really love it. And I think it's like a beautiful practice, even just to give to like a director that you worked with, you know, or an actor, actress. Like, I think that that's really special. Yeah. I got to send you, uh, the photos I took in high school when I first bought that RZ. Yeah. Because Ecktar had just come out.

And I was very excited. Oh, he saw so much actor on that camera. That's so funny. But just seeing like teenage boys being very dramatic. Like I've got this great like my buddy was in a metal band and him and him and my other friend were just holding these rabbits.

Just like it's so it like right, you know, like instead of lighting a cigarette, lighting a flower. You know, we took, we took the backseat out of my expedition and put it in the middle of the road just because that depth of field, you know, we we didn't even have good digital cameras at all. like the 5D hadn't come out, you know, at 1DX, my buddy's dad had. And of course, that was like a $20 billion camera. Yeah.

So just seeing that, that at the time, you know, medium format, but in our heads, a large format, depth of field in the middle of the street was just so, or just like, you know, getting that fetishistic, shallow depth. It was just a mindblower to us at the time. No, it is, it's like, it's magic. It's also like reminds me so much of like something I'd see on Flickr, you know, like when I was on like 30 under 30 and you're like, I want to be on the 30 under 30. like trying to get this you know

try and use our camera up like that minimum like shallow it with like some glass in front of it maybe some water or a leaf yeah you know 100% funny that is unbelievable it has on the flicker in the Debian art because that's the deemian art was fun

um you want to talk about your show um sure do you have to go do I just realize no no no no No, no, sure. We'll make it quick.

Yeah. Just because I am interested in, and I'm sure you've talked about this before in any other interview you've done, but the combo Big Door Prize Fargo thing has got to be a very gratifying body of work to have out at the same, roughly the same time. Yeah, you know, it is, it's crazy because the strike happened and I had just done all this. And I'd worked for like, I want to say it's three and a half year straight. And then I was like doing the last job in Atlanta before the strike happened. And so I've been really fortunate to have all this, you know, work. And then I did the strike and none of it was out.

And there's something about that where it's like years of years of work. You can't promote it. Yeah. You can't promote it. Then you got nothing going on. And then all of a sudden, you know, when I left to Thailand, then, you know, Well, Fargo came out and that was already great and exciting. And then I came and then I went to Thailand and Big Dwar Price came out.

And then at the end of my time in Thailand, me came out. And so now I, you know, now I have like this cornucopia of great things that I'm very that I'm very excited about and very grateful that are out. And it's also just so so relieving, right? like after that period of time to be able to see the fact that you went and did something creative and like and also for me like all of those shows were really all different but all great experiences and big dwarfs particularly season two was the most fun I've ever had on a TV show and it was like kind of the consensus of the crew I mean yeah it was like I love Chris O'Dowd yeah you know big IT crowd fan yeah I mean like you know you like you like you like you like us, you let us that way and he was just really great guy and, you know, it's such an ensemble cast that like, I'm so grateful that all of them are just such beautiful people and like bring something to, you know, bring something new and exciting to every time we have to, you know, go into a room with 14 people. I mean, like, that is an overwhelming task and just having like a

laugh every time from someone new because they're trying something is a really beautiful experience and like, you know, we did dress up days and really fun. We did a donut eating contest. You know, like, I mean, you know, like that was the thing. Like, that's where I think the new element of the industry comes in, right? Like, I am old school as they come. Like, I love reverence. I love that, you know, the silence between pictures up and rolling, like all those things I love. But also, I really believe that like we can also have a really good time doing it. So like, if we're all dressed up in Western wear as we make a really emotional Western scene, you know, homage. Like, that is cool with me.

I love that. And that's like just a big thing for me with like both that and me, I think, is, you know, because I got to be at the helm of both that and season one of me. And so I got to like bring all these people in for my team that's a kind of cultivate an energy that really was just beautiful. created like we have videos of all of us line dancing together on set and just really you know I think it really shows up on the screen I think that like there's like a technical ability that's on the screen but I also think that there's just like a general love for each other in the show

and the amazing writing of David West Reed that really come through this season and I tried really hard to like really finesse and be intentional with every decision this season in terms of the look because, you know, it was the next stage. It's literally the title episode of our second season premiere. It's how are we going to make this show even better, even greater, even grander than it was season one, which it already was. And I was very lucky to be a part of that with Adam Silver. So, you know, and I brought so much of Fargo onto Big Door Prize.

I mean, I bring Fargo onto every job that I do, I think. Yeah, I was going to, my first thought. Before I get to that, it was, I made a joke in my head that, like, if the producer came up with the cowboy, everyone wear a cowboy thing for Cowboy Day idea, it's like in the back of my head, it's like if they were smart, it's like just in case there's a crew member in the shot, no one will notice. You know what? I thought you were going somewhere else, and I was going to tell you a story. Maybe like a off, maybe a just you and me story. Okay, yeah, all right. Put a pin in that.

Well, one of my, one of my camera operators, one of my camera assistants literally came. in a jean vest with no shirt on, with jeans, high heels. This is a six-foot man. Yeah. High heels with like a, like a riding, sparkly riding crop in the back of his pants with like a little bolo tie. And he came on a set and I was literally like the producers are going to think I'm crazy. The producers are going to fire me.

Like there's just, you know, this is my second season on this show, but I was just like, what did I do? You know, like it was very much that environment. So I thought you were going to go there like someone, you know. Someone goofed it. No, no, no. I was like, someone already went there. Yeah.

But what I did want to ask was obviously with helming something like Fargo where there's, you know, the film is so beloved. And obviously, you know, you're not copying deacons, but there's that kind of potentially specter over your head. But then also with something like Big Door Prize where kind of nebulously, both are dark. comedy. Well, I suppose Big Door Prize isn't a dark comedy, but it's like, you know, a heartfelt. It's comedy, but then there's another element. Yeah, for sure. Fargo is more dark with comedy. How, you know, I noticed in Big Door Prize, it's like very low con, very colorful, but still has good, you know, like contrast in lighting, whereas Fargo's a little more like traditionally lit, I suppose, in terms of colored and stuff. But I was wondering, like, in what ways did you see them kind of blending? visually and in what ways were they disparate? And also, what were those things that you were saying? You know, you bring Fargo everywhere. Like, what were those lessons, whatnot?

Yeah. Well, like, I think no matter what season of Fargo it is, and no matter what the general look ends up being, I mean, in every season, they kind of really find something interesting to kind of, like, dig into. I know for, you know, season three, they, like, didn't have a blue channel at all color-wise. You know, they took the blue channel out. So it's like they have really overarching creative ideas and concepts that link to every element of the show. But I think what does stay the same is like that Cohen Brothers-esque movement of the camera and how to tell the story and general lensing.

I think that it perks from Fargo lensing, the movie. And then I think the TV show, though, has adapted and become its own language and really has these kind of rules that. we adhere to most of the time to keep that kind of like cohesive, you know, really polished look. And then also at the same time, it's like when we're not doing that, when we break that convention and we go the polar opposite way, it has this massive effect because the visual storytelling has just departed so much from where we kind of have been. And I think that's like a really big element in Fargo, right?

It's like when you depart, departing big and really making it something. of a spectacle. And I felt like, you know, Big Door Prize in this way was like this very like real world, but also it's not. It's like a little bit sci-fi-y, you know, it's a little bit grander. And so I was like, it's the real world, but if there was a machine that gave you your life's potential, right? So it's like, I wanted it to feel a little bit surrealistic, a little bit elevated, almost, you know, a little bit, like, almost like something's wrong. You know, it's not, it's not so natural where we should feel comfortable all the time. There's just like this element of artificiality, right? And that doesn't exist in Fargo. But I think what does exist

in Fargo is just this classic element of storytelling, putting the camera on the right place with the right lens, the right distance from the actor. You know, I think there's very specific lensing rules in Fargo. There's very specific ways that we move the camera. Usually, in any given scene, the camera will only move on one axis, like the X axis or the Y axis, or it will boom up and down, but it does not kind of break those molds unless it's going to break it. And then you have, you know, the starting shot from the first episode where it's just, you know, the high speed phantom, you know, all around the gym. And like, so I think it's meant to kind of, make it so that you feel every decision that's being made.

You know, so then I really wanted to take that intentionality into Big Door Prize. So, like, you know, I think they were similar but different. I mean, I chose the lenses that I chose for Big Door Prize, the focal links for the lensing, because I wanted it to be wide enough where when you were in a medium close-up, you could see the physicality of the actors because it's a comedy. and there's so much physicality and timing in it. So for me, that was really important. Also, I felt there was something about with the large format,

about the way with that lens that it almost felt three-dimensional. Yeah. And in that way, almost landed to this, like, kind of artificiality and also, like, really singling people out to be in their experience. And those are all things that are kind of done by, like, putting the camera, kind of in a really tight eye line, very similar to Fargo. but I find that like with Fargo it's like so classic if it can be done in one shot tell all the story in one shot do as much story telling as you can with all the elements in it production design and wardrobe and lighting and camera and sound and you know the way it's edited so like for me that was just my big approach for the second season of Big Door Prize was like I really want it to feel like that and I want to feel like that and I want to

when we make a departure for you to feel it. You know, it's such a fun show like you were saying that when we, you know, do kind of get into these moments of seriousness, I wanted it to be a departure. I wanted you to feel something. But then I wanted you to be able to laugh at the end of it, you know, and not be too moody or serious. Yeah, it was really big for me and David Westread

was to kind of keep the tone of the show because it was really important to him and not what's important to him is important to me. So, but I'm like really proud of it. I think, you know, the main difference is that, you know, Fargo, there's, there's kind of rules about the color separation and what colors we use because there's significance to them. Yeah. You know, like season two of Fargo, that teal is the color of death. You know, it's like, so you can't use the teal anywhere else because if you do, it just, it's the same kind of process of thinking, right?

Like, when you don't use X and you use it and you use it later, it just becomes so effective. and you start using Y, you know, X becomes so effective down the line. So for Dwar Prize, I really like season two for me. It was really about color separation. It was like me, you know, as a technician, I really wanted to focus and hone in on that because I felt it was right for the show. And it's something really hard, like getting a nice contrast level and getting your colors to kind of blend and like feel as if they're actually in the

image. and, you know, like, feel realistic, but also kind of add some kind of vibe or a tone. Like, that's really hard, actually. Like, Susperia is great because of that, like, the use of color and how it uses it for mood and tone. And especially when you have a show where, like, again, we, you know, the morpho machine, that blue, it's almost like the death color from Fargo. It's like you almost can never use it, you know, until you're at the machine. so you know I think weirdly I find them so similar I just think because I I think that like the rules in which that we make Fargo are just great things to think about on every set yeah you know the way approaches yeah the formality you know but don't get me wrong we like break through we break rules all the time and you know so but I think that you

Yeah, I've learned so much and like how we move the camera. Like I put the camera, my camera is almost always on a Ronin and a black arm and a dolly just so it can move. It can freely move and do the right thing without being, you know, like dependent on dance floor or track or sliders. You know, it's a good dolly grip, a good operator and a good shot. You know what I mean? and that's definitely something I've picked up from like that the Noah Hawley Fargo camp. It's like that's a very big way of moving the camera for them.

And that's how I did all of me, that TV show I did. I did all 10 episodes and all 10 episodes I did with me, Michael Dowst, the director, and the A-camera operator, Andrew LaVoy, and we like never left that. We just moved the camera all the time to tell the story. You know, as many scenes as we could do in one shot, we did in one shot just because if we could tell the story

that was like a win that's all we wanted to do cut the fat you know what I mean and just like say it in the best way possible well and also it's the classic editing thing of

when you cut to a different angle or whatever that's where the audience feels they can breathe and if you do everything in one shot they just naturally lean in and listen harder and like wait for that

subconscious nod that you're allowed to you know check out a bit or whatever and by doing it in one shot it does force the audience to pay attention yeah there's something about it something about pace pace is so important yeah you know i've been talking about this recently because i've been doing these and people ask me about my inspirations and i'm it's not a new obsession but i've had this slight obsession now with guy richie movies oh sure and and and and the pace

I find the pace really exciting, and I think it's like stylized and intentional and the pace is good. And I feel like there's things that draw me to that. And maybe it's like working with David West Reed or the big door prize or something. But something about comedy and especially dark comedy and being on a show like Fargo where like when a beat lands like that and it really lands and then moves on to the next thing, almost like, you know, it landed, but you can't even keep up. You've just got to keep moving. Those are, I feelings, I feel like all those shows have.

And so that's like a big interest of mine right now just because I feel like it, it's like, you know, it tells the story, but in a way that I think is kind of more maybe appealing to our like new minds or like ADD phone enrich minds in which, you know, like it is harder for me to watch like a slower drawn out dramatic piece. anymore. Yeah. And it's impacted, like, what I want to make, I think, for sure. Yeah, I actually did get to interview the DP of the gentleman. And I think we got into a bit of that. I listened to a bit of it. Yeah, because I love, like, I think it's, I just think it's so, I think, you know, so much

talent, so much talent, love the TV show, love the movie, I love the TV show, and really excited for, like, more of his TV shows from his movies. I think that's going to be really great. I'll be there watching. Yeah. Snatch was really big for me and my friends, for sure. Right. Like, I just feel like there is a, with most of my friends, there is a Guy Ritchie movie that,

you know, change something for them. Yeah. And weirdly, like, I mean, I love the Sherlock movies, but weirdly for me, mine was the gentleman. And so then when the TV show came out too, and, you know, I've always wanted to make TV as much as I love shooting movies and I've always kind of been drawn to television. And so to see a movie that I love the way that it was made. the pace and all these things that I just talked about, translated into TV in this way that, like, I believe that, you know, is the kind of the way that things should be done.

I'm like, yes, I love that. I want that. Oh, yeah. So I think like, you know, Fargo, Big Door Prize, that's like now, right? That's all the things I'm going to pull from. And hopefully, like, somewhere in the future, there's like even a more of a mix of them where I feel like, you know, that like, obviously it's much more macawful. and dark, but I feel like the gentleman's like the next, you know, it's just like a different

version of it. So I'm thinking like that's kind of a cool, interesting waves that I want to like look into it. Definitely interests me. Yeah. The, uh, was the, because like the first season of Big Door Prize was like each episode was not a capsule, but they were each individual. Whereas second season, it's more of like a one cohesive thing.

did you find either one of those more your like did you prefer you know just talking about all that like did you prefer like each episode being it's all and jam or did you kind of was it easier on you to make the whole thing one thing you know I loved I love them both for different reasons and I love the order in which it was right and you wouldn't do the other order but but what was so special for me was like my first episode of big door prize was episode three um which was uh Jacob was the title and It follows Sammy Forlis, who is just like an unbelievably talented person and I, and a very awesome great guy. And, you know, basically we made that capsule together and that was my first episode.

We shot the block, obviously, but it was my first episode to air. And it was really special for me because, you know, every, everybody had a certain visual distinct language that we were kind of establishing between me and Adam. And Adam established a lot of them in the, in the. the first episode, but the person that I really got to establish first was Jacob, and we decided to go, you know, very, like, indie movie with it, and, like, the score reflected it, and, you know, there was, like, no handheld in the show, and we decided that we were going to have these, like, little moments of handheld, and we were going to, you know, we were shooting anamorphic,

and I really wanted to, like, put diopters on and be on a wider lens of the diopter to be really close because the whole episode is basically like a walking panic attack. Right. It's just like, you know, constant, just internal stimulation for him and going through everything he's going through. And like it was, you know, I think one of the first episodes I submitted for awards. And so it was like very meaningful to me. But then, you know, like now looking at season two, my favorite episode of season two, I think,

is an episode I did with Jordan Canning. It's episode six. And it's, again, it's like this, it's of the season. I think it's Jacob's episode. It's him and his dad. And it's two visual languages that me and Adam set up. It's Adam set up this like Western homage, the aesthetic for Beau, the father. And I'd set up this like indie aesthetic for Jacob.

And so it was a really fun exercise because I got to, you know, the whole thing I wanted to do on the show this season was we knew where the characters got visually by the end of season one. Right. But everything had changed by the end of season one. And now we're in a whole new place. And then by the end of this season, we're going to be in a whole different place. And I really wanted to be able to track visually how people are changing throughout the season.

So it was really important to me to like start where we had left off and then visually make that progression. So by episode six, I felt like it should have been like halfway between the two. And then I felt it really special that, you know, the episode, you know, starts with Bo, ends with Jacob and ends with Jacob in this really beautiful, like, indie moment in this camp, like in front of a fire in front of his house with his dad, and this bonding moment. And so, you know, and visually I love it. And it's, I think, an elevated, sophisticated version of the prior season. And so for me, what I love most about it is the growth that I see. not just in myself but through like us as a team as a show and you know um and being able to get deeper but I think that like I think maybe season two just because you know a I got to push myself

and challenge myself and then push my my you know the other DP on the show Darren Moran you know just like Adam silver had pushed me for season one you know Adam told me he's like you push me and I'll push you and you push me further and you know we'll just keep going like this and so I kind of said the same thing to Darren

and I really wanted to make this big push to kind of go somewhere and I'm really I'm just really proud of it like when I watched season two and knowing what season one and how we did it and the schedule

and I just I feel a lot of pride because I feel that when I watch it I know that people worked the hardest they could have worked with what they were given. They did the best, you know, the best job possible. And I feel like if you can leave a show

and think that everybody has given their all to something, it, you know, it's just a beautiful experience. Yeah, and it also makes me think of something that I heard someone discussing recently, which was like, when all of these sort of studio films come out that are micromanaged, you know, they don't trust the creatives to do what they do. The issue isn't necessarily the micromanagement. It's that we all get into this industry,

you know, like we were saying earlier, it's not the glitz and glam. It's the creative problem solving with others and progressing in your craft that makes us willing to work 12 hours a day for potentially a rate that you don't want or whatever. And when the micromanagers come in and tell you what to do, you've taken all of everything that makes it worthwhile away. And then it becomes a hostile environment that maybe you guys are trauma bonding over, but it doesn't. And then the end product suffers. Yeah. I definitely think so.

I definitely think you see it. But also it's like, I think in order to get the real vision of what people are doing, you really have to be able to have conversations, ask questions, you know, and kind of move forward from that. And like, that's all you can ask for, right? But I really think it's like a simple yet very important premise of like how we have to go about. doing our jobs. I've been really lucky where, like, I've worked with amazing people that have been supportive. And, and, you know, like, I feel even more lucky because I'm, I'm young in this industry, you know, on top of being young, I'm a woman. And, like, you know, sometimes I have people that work on my team that are like, you know, that tell me that joke that I said earlier,

you're my age, my age ago. You know, and we, and we work together. And so I feel, very lucky that in my time in this industry, as it's changed and evolved, definitely as our industry has evolved. But I've really been grateful to kind of have people that are willing to trust me enough to give me the opportunity to show them. And once I show them, I find that then we're working as a team. And also, like, that's what we're here to do anyways, right? Like, my favorite relationships are like, when I have a good relationship with like a UPM, that for me is like the best relationship of all time, because we're talking about how to make the show good and we're talking about conversations about how to do it.

And maybe you've been around and you know a suggestion that I haven't, you know, that I haven't thought of. And then we can have that kind of brain exercise. Like I had that a lot with, you know, Matt Spiegel on the big door prize. Like I had that kind of those conversations daily. Yeah. And that's a different way of using your brain that I really appreciate, right? It's that like logistical thinking past the point of creative while always keeping creative

in mind that I really appreciate. But I definitely think, like, I get worried about big, bigger, I get worried about bigger shows, honestly, because I come from a place of, like, we make decisions because they're the right thing to do for the story, we think, in our opinion, with the perspective that we're going from, right? So I think, and you hope and you hope that you're trusted and that kind of the vision rings through.

But I think it gets harder, you know, like I was telling somebody in an interview, I'm going to miss the $350,000 movie I did. I'm going to really miss that experience because I'm going to miss the 18-person crew that comes together. Everyone's invested 100% blood, sweat and tears to make this movie. And when that movie got into TIF in competition, it was like the biggest win of all time for the entire team because there were 18 of us that came together to make this movie. You know, when we didn't even know of like the world was like going to continue.

you on. You know, that's kind of it kind of felt like. So, you know, as good as all these things that come out feel and it's really great, I just, I feel like the wins are to be celebrated at every stage because those smaller wins, I got to tell you, there's something so sweet about when you're coming up and those early on wins just being like something that you, you know, I wish I could experience again. And like, and that like just kind of mentality. And I I know that, you know, I know that there are filmmakers now that take that mentality and try and put it into bigger films. Like, I heard, you know, I was in Thailand. They did creator in Thailand.

Yeah. And they were like, yeah, director wanted 25 people, a person crew. And it's like, you know, that's, I love that mentality. I think people still have it. But I definitely think you start to lose that. I've been really grateful that that hasn't been my experience, but I definitely fear it constantly. Yeah. And I mean, that's the other thing, too, is like, that's.

when the magic is still there, because I'm sure, you know, the higher up you go, the more it feels like a job, you know, there's way more bureaucracy. There's way more, um, maybe, I feel like it caps up. I have no idea. Like, I feel like politics are just politics are politics. Like, like my first job was as scary as my next job, you know, in terms of, just because I feel like it's all, it's such a big part of it, um, you know, and I feel like there's so many people involved all the time. time, even in the middle kind of realm of budgets. But you know what, it always works itself out.

I always have that attitude, and it always works itself out. I mean, like, no matter who's involved, at the end, someone's making a decision, right? And, like, I'm a very loyal person, especially to the people that I've worked with that have, you know, Noah and that camp were part of the reason that I have a career that is what it is today. So, like, I owe a lot to those people, but, like, I'm very lucky that, like, I get to work with people like that where we have a leading, like, a guiding voice that can kind of take us through. And I think that's very big now, right? Like, the showrunner, you know, the showrunner kind of led shows are really kind of becoming, like, our staple. Like, I think all the things that are winning awards are just very strong leaders that are kind of taking us there. And for me, like, that's what I thrive off of. I only want to be a DP. I don't really have a greater, like, this is what I want to do. This is my dream job.

So for me, like, those people, those are, that's like, you know, that's straight, you know, straight to my ear of what the vision is and how, you know, how they think the world looks and how that feels. And so that to me is very important and probably how I'll go about choosing my jobs, right? It's like, who do I get that feeling from? Who am I, who am I, you know, with Dave, David Westreed. I was just like, some days I'd walk in and he would ask me, I remember when he was like, so we're going to put, we're going to build this like 25 foot spaghetti pile and he's going

to put someone on top of it. And I was like, what are you talking? You know what I mean? Like, I love that. I want that. Like, I want, hey, I had this dream last night and I think we should do that. Like, I want those kind of people. So I feel like if you follow those people, you won't have those kind of problems.

You know what I mean? Well, and also, like, as a DP, I think early on, it's easy to get confused about what your job is. But your job is to visually articulate that person's vision. And when you can find people who have a strong vision, not only does it make your job easier, but also, I think it results in a better product. when there's too many cooks in the kitchen, then it's not that it's necessarily worse, but it's diffused.

Yeah. You know, and when you, it's that idea of like trying to please everyone, you please no one. 100%. I mean, I think that what you just said is of the utmost importance

for anybody thinking about our industry or thinking about shooting or thinking about, you know, becoming a DP is that I think there's a misconception about what our job is. And also I think the misconception comes from film school. Right? Where obviously they're just trying to teach you, but I feel like there are things that like, you know, personally, if I'm ever involved in a shot list, it's when a director and I are shot listing together because they want to because that is their preference that they would like to go through and do everything. But usually, like, it's not my preference. I never shot list by myself. You know, the only, in fact, what I want is I want to go through a script and have all.

all my ideas in my head or written down or whatever. And I want to go to a meeting and I want to hear what the concept is. I want to hear what the vision is. And then I can, you know, take it in and ask questions and form my opinions and form kind of like a breakdown in my head. And then at the point in which I feel like I understand the vision enough to be a helpful voice, then I can say, well, what if we did this? Well, what if does this work better for this scene later because we have to, you know, maybe we'll get there, but then what's the point before that? Like, those are the questions I'm there to ask. Like, I'm there just to ask to be a bouncing board, right? To ask you a question that might lead to another question that might get us somewhere.

That's where I feel like my place is here, right? And then obviously to technically achieve what I'm asked to be tech to do. And that is a massive part of my job. I mean, you know, for DoorPrize, like the end sequence of the finale was basically a one line in a sense. script that was like... They fight or whatever. Yeah, and I was like, well, what does this look like? And my showrunner was like, hmm, well, and, you know, and I know what that means. And it's still getting, it's still getting formulated.

And I remember, like, I went to our production designer with, like, a drawing I'd been on a napkin. And I was like, hey, do you think like this is it? And she's like, yeah, I do. And then we went to the showrunner and I was like, you think this is it? And he was like, yeah, I do. And so, you know, it's like, and things happen like that. but but but but like it and that's like the beautiful part of our of our industry and our process

and like a team right like it was just I and support and and trusting the people around you like I don't know if that would have been cool with any other team but the fact that we all kind of were thinking about brainstorming on how to do this and you know we have two weeks left and how are we going to realistically make it happen and and technically like photometrically you know like that's a big thing for me like I can't I tell people all the time, like, I don't have a lot of, a whole lot of other skills. And I'm not very good at math. But when it comes to photometrics, the math in my brain kicks in, probably from shooting

film, you know, probably from those cameras. Yeah. So, like, but, and that's what I like. We're like engineers in that weird way. Or we're not. Or we depend on people that are much better at figuring out this stuff than we are. And our genius is bringing them on to our shows to work with us to make us. better you know i mean that's a huge part of it too i mean i try and do that i try and work with the

best people i can at all times you know why wouldn't i why wouldn't i surround myself by people who know much better much more than me about what they're there to do dude one of the worst things in the world is being shackled to someone who gets uh nervous not nervous but like defensive when someone knows more than them or like has a better idea and then they shut it down just because it's not their idea. It's like, oh, God, you're making it worse for everyone. No, you know, pick, like, this is another thing I kind of, like, preach is, like, I don't even know if it's picking your battles or, like, just learning how to take a deep breath.

Like, for me, the thing is that I really understood, and I, I worked with, I've worked with so many great directors, and I have so many great relationships with them. And I have to believe that that's because it's all those things we just talked about, like, all that trust that I have in them and their vision and therefore I am there for them and I think then they know I'm there for them, right? So by not questioning everything, when I do ask a question or when I do make a suggestion, I find that almost never is it shot down because I don't ask for very much at all. I'm only there to be helpful and to execute, right? So when I'm like, I think this is where the story is, almost always will they, at least,

take a step back and think about it and ask themselves if it's the right question. You know what I mean? But like, I think that that's a really important skill to learn. I think that that's how we are the most beneficial. And I think that's how we add ourselves into the screen. I mean, you know, even if you have a director that puts the camera in the exact position they want it, you still have half a job. You still have lighting, lighting it to however your heart desires. I mean, I was blown away that on Fargo, you know, also like in, you know, film school, they tell you, you're going to talk to the director about how you're going to light everything and they're going to tell you the mood and tone.

And like, that doesn't really happen all the time in TV shows. You know, it doesn't. Most TV shows absolutely none at all. No one will ever tell you what it needs to look like. But like on Fargo, I remember my first day, like coming up and like nobody was like talking to me about, you know, like, no one's going to tell you like, we wanted to look like this. Yeah. You know, you're just like, you read the sides.

You watch the blocking. you're like, okay, I get it, I get it. I think I know how that feels to me, and then you just do it. Yeah. You know, so there's so much to our job that if you, you know, for me, that director, camera operator relationship is so important. Like, if that relationship exists, it's not, it's not because, you know, you're not part of it.

It's because they're really going to work to tell the story in the best way possible, but also a camera operator is going to push the day for you. and, like, there's all these things. And then you can go work on all the other stuff you have to do. And, like, taking that little bit off your plate, I feel like, you know, also then suggestions can come through the operator and, like, you know, in this ecosystem we have. But, like, I feel like there is, you know, we have our positions for a reason. And we're there to be artists and there to be collaborators.

But, like, for me, the best part of being a DP is working with everybody is the collaboration of the team. Like, I think that's why this is the job for me is, like, I don't know if I ever want to squad less than 50 again, 60 again. You know, like, I love, like, my rigors and, like, those are all, just because I know that I couldn't do it without them, like, I could get sick and leave, and the show could go on. And, you know, if our whole crew wiped out, like, I can't do anything on my own. I've been very aware of that since I started in this industry back when, you know, it's a gaffer plus one. And like, you know, so I think it's really important, like, just the people you surround yourself with and that energy and, like, how you give your energy to people and how you ask questions, like, that to me is of utmost importance, even more than, like, how it looks. Because also, like, what's on the screen is so much more important than how we capture it in a weird way. As much as I'm, like, a hypocrite by being, like, you know, I know our job is to make beautiful images, but.

But really is it? Like I think our job is to like telegraph Emotionally beautiful images. Emotionally. Not necessarily visually. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so I think that's definitely like, you know, that saying, you can't save a bad

movie with good cinematography. So true. So true. You know what I mean? Like there are movies. I have a collection of movies I watch with no sound because I love them, you know, like a moving wallpaper, but they're not they're not movies. that make me feel something and, you know, make me think about the cinematography on a daily

basis. And I have a lot of movies like that. They just, like, live in my brain rent free or, like, shots, you know, very much so. Yeah. I know for a fact we could talk for two more hours. I know. I've held you far too long. No, it's okay.

It was so great. Yeah, I would love to have you back on as soon as you'd like. Awesome. But, yeah, now I just looked at myself. I was like, this looks like I'm filming paranormal activity now. Oh, my God. That's funny. My son went away.

So, uh, no. It's so great. I really enjoyed it. It was nice just to talk for like the first bit. Yeah. You know, we don't, I don't really get that a lot. Usually it's write him. And then I didn't even really want to.

I mean, I did want to talk about the shows, but I just heard the PR people in the back of my head going like, and you didn't bring it up once. Like, you know, they know what they signed up for. This is year for this. Yeah, exactly. I'm just like, I'm here for the ride. You know what I mean? If you want to talk about the shows, I talk about the shows so much. I was literally just talking today about how all of them sound. I'm like feeling like I'm sounding the same in every single interview because I'm, you know, talking about the same shows. Well, that's actually, that was the reason my whole approach to this show was, you know, listening to Team Deacons or Wandering DP or Cinematography podcast. It's like they're all doing the same interview. And that's got to be torture for the guest. So I was like, I know.

My original idea actually for the podcast was it was supposed to be like structured around the idea of like, what are the conversations like when you go grab a drink with someone? Yeah. And then they're kind of like this, though. Mine are kind of like this. Yeah, same. Mine are all like this, like distant friend that you've been on different continents for the last two months, three months. Yeah. Like it's very much that.

like world catch up slash what I've been doing slash what I want our world to be you know it's very much in that kind of oh we we solve a lot of the world's problems on this show but yeah I'm going to let you go but please stay in touch and

love to have you back on whenever thank you so much it was great to meet you you too take care see you too bye frame and reference is an owlbot production It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so on Patreon by going to frame and refpod.com, where you can get all the episodes and clicking the Patreon button. It's always appreciated, and as always, thanks for listening.

Thank you.