Frame & Reference Podcast - 160: "Out Come the Wolves" DP Christian Bielz

Episode Date: September 19, 2024

This week we've got the wonderful Christian Bielz on the program to talk about his work on the feature thriller "Out Come the Wolves" Enjoy! Visit https://www.frameandrefpod.com for everything F&R https://www.patreon.com/frameandrefpod Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coast's leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠⁠Filmtools.com⁠⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello, and welcome to this, another episode of frame and reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and you're listening to episode 160 with Christian Beals, DP of Outcome the Wolves. Enjoy. what do you do in pre-production when you get those conversations where it's like because I'm experiencing it now on a different another different project where it's like the communication starts to break down and like you like you said people either aren't reading emails or are waiting for some magic answer to come through and especially I imagine on like lower budget stuff that happens more and more you'd think it'd get better

with more money but I've heard it doesn't but yeah what's what? Do you have any, like, tools or, like, tricks to deal with that? It's funny because I will copy and paste. If I've just written something as clearly, and I've taken the time to write something very clearly in terms of, you know, what's being asked of me, here are the clear answers. I will, if it's, if I'm asked the question a second time, but the answers were in the previous email, I used to just sort of copy and then. paste, not as a quote from the email, but just, and then I, so, but then that happens again, and then I restructure the sentence. I was like, well, maybe they didn't understand what I meant. Yeah, sure. So I'll, I'll restructure it, but I think you just have to, you get through it.

You're just patient. Yeah, the, the one that email, like, you know how like on Reddit or whatever you'll put the slash s if you're being sarcastic or whatever there's all these like that's why we had emojis and now it's like everything you read can be misconstrued like a big one is uh instead of copy pasting or in addition to that doing as per my last email you know that always feels like a huge kick in the nuts like that's what you want to say there's always the first draft which is what you want to say and then there's like okay let's strip out let's strip out the emotional response. Let's stick to the facts.

And if we were a robot, we would just repeat the answer. So let's do that. I wanted to actually give you a compliment before we kind of like got started, which was I find the way that people, the way that DPs do their reels is always very interesting. You know, I had one guy on who had like a 35 minute reel because it was like scenes. And I was like, that's interesting. That's a new one. most people say keep it under like a minute and a half you know but i love how yours is just

dark light ads like that's an interesting way to like separate or because i you know there's i've heard varying opinions on whether or not to have like specific um specific uh uh uh reals or not but to separate it by dark and light is so great versus like this is narrative this is music video that because that's not necessarily what people like i got a dark film i got a film. And so that, yeah, so, you know, years of just struggling to cut reels, I, I, for some reason for a long time, so I started shooting lighter fare narratives at one point. I was shooting the dark stuff, but then in between the dark stuff, you know, the bread

and butter was a lot of lighter fare, a lot of rom-com type type stuff. it's not this it's not the kind of work that I was wanting to get hired for or the kind of work that I wanted to produce necessarily it was it was a job it there are commercial projects essentially and and so you you know there's a certain expectation as far as exposure goes and and then for the content I mean you're not going to light it super moody these aren't that's not the market um all I'm trying to to do is the best version that I can feel good about for those. And so, but because I wasn't showing people those TV movies, yeah, I just, after a while,

I realized that actually, I had a few of them. And I thought, you know what, why am I, you know, avoiding sharing this stuff? It looks like I haven't done everything because I'm, you know, the indie features are, I'm not cranking them out every year. There are a couple years, every few years. So with a lot of other narrative stuff in between. And I thought, I might as well just show this stuff. How do I show it?

And then I just thought, well, it's a play on the dark and light. Like my dark stuff, the feature stuff that I've been doing is a very horror, thriller, kind of dark type of content. And then on the flip side, I'm doing these TV. movie movies so I thought it'd be fun just to do a dark reel because it's clearly dark and then the light stuff which is also a play on the fact that

you know exposure is on those films yeah it's such a smart way to think about it uh I'd steal it if I had a varied enough work on under my own things I am thinking like at some point I just need to make like a corporate reel just so I can be like listen

it's not that I'm not working it's kind of you know it's what you're saying it's like not the stuff I want to be known for. But if someone was like, are you capable? I'd be like, I got hundreds of hours of interviews. That's it. It's not that we're not working. It's that we're not loving the project or, you know, our work on it that we want to advertise every single project that that we take on. But yeah, at some point, I think it's important to show that. And I think also like if I was looking for a DP, I just tried to look at it from that perspective as well as a client, let's say, someone who's, you know, doing any, there's so many different styles

of projects. And if all I'm showing them is, is dark and gritty, they're not going to be too keen on considering me for something that is lighter, you know, whatever that might be. so I think it's important to show the variety but also I've I've kept it you know within those those boxes yeah anyway yes cut your cut your corporate real and you know it's I will say the corporate real stuff has or not the core real stuff but the the corporate stuff definitely has helped me learn how to light really fucking fast because this one guy worked with all the time. Love working with him. It's great. The workflow we've built is super like we got a shorthand, everything smooth as hell. But he does give me about five minutes. Because he's like,

he's managing the, I guess, quote unquote, talent, right? So he's like, once he feels like they're warm, he's just like, we good? And it's like, I'm still metering. And I'm like, um, yeah. So like coming up with like the big one, I think that is, I would love. to hear what your opinion is on like a tool that changed the game for you. Because for me it's the color meter in conjunction with lights that have

X, Y coordinates. I've said this a bunch I feel, but being able to, I was just in a terribly lit dog shit warehouse. And all I did was just before I turned any of the lights on, metered it, got the X, Y coordinates, set the key light to that, match that to the camera.

And it looks like everything was lit with my lights. Right. because the key light matches exactly that overhead stuff, and then it's just a matter of tint and balance, you know. And you can do that with one key, and then suddenly the entire warehouse is your lights. It's like a reverse of what you're supposed to do. It's interesting because I entertain getting a common meter for a long time.

They are expensive. And that's why I entertained it for a long time, but I was trying to justify or just to understand and justify the purchase, but also understand, like, is this a tool I'm actually going to use? As it is, even a light meter doesn't come out on a lot of projects. You know, we have a properly calibrated monitor. It tells you what you need to know. And when it comes to matching to fixtures, you know, if you're using aperture fixtures

or now I'm sure the nanlights and every other manufacturer is going to offer, if they don't already, it's sort of the color picker. right so you can point at a light source and then it it gives you that that x y or that that match yeah which i've i've tested a little bit it's not perfect but at least it gets you in the zone um but also what i find is if i'm in an environment like your warehouse let's say and i'm i just want to meter that existing uh light i will just take out a white card and do a sure a balance without the lights get the camera to to set itself up and then and sort of reverse it, engineer it that way.

Yeah. And then dial the funky green and green values into my RGB lights. But I, yeah, I was considering the coloring me for a long time. And it was a gaffer, a really experienced gaffer that I'm friends with. And he, because he walks around, that's his meter. That's what he does. And he's dialing all that stuff in. I said, yeah, I'd love to get one of those.

What do you, which one do you recommend? He's like, why do you want one? he's like you're probably not going to use it like you don't like and we had worked together a bit at that point and he was like you just you see what you want to do and you make it happen there's you I don't see you having needed a color meter to do your work yeah and uh yeah so he discouraged me also he was like yeah you don't you don't need that that's let the gaffer hold the color meter you can totally for me for me it was uh I still am.

I mean, I learned on film and I think there's for all the things that are getting, I don't care for shooting film. I'm not like one of those people like,

it was better back then. But the, the workflow, I think suited my brain. So just the idea, like I still use the meters all the time. Like I,

I, and it also keeps me from having to trust the monitor and worry about that. If I know the numbers are good. You know, you got a good monitor, obviously.

But like, I don't know, I just, I get nervous anytime I don't have like backup or like redundant information. So like I'm using the meters, but also false color, you know, because the camera is now a third element, not just what's happening in the scene, but how that data is being captured and shit. But the color meter, honestly, I've got because I write for this website called Pro Video Coalition and I do a lot of like reviews of gear. And I kept getting offered to do light reviews. And I'm like, I don't know. I don't know if this is good. Like, it looks fine. But like, when you put 5,600 in the back, is that what's coming out the front?

Like, is it actually spectrally a good? I don't know. I can't tell you. And I got sick of writing reviews that were like, as far as I can tell, this is nice. Yeah. You know, it certainly does light up. You know, the only thing I could meet her was the power. That's a specific use case.

Yeah. For sure. Yeah, it's a good time. I watched Actually no Before I get there I did want to say I read that Canadian cinematographer article

That's like linked at the bottom of your little about And I was wondering Kind of how has your workflow changed Between 2017 you shot what has it pronounced Iwacket Excellent Nice

I think my dad I think my dad pronounced it Piawaket Sure I've heard so many pronunciations and most people just say how do you say this?

Yeah but you know you're you're using a C300 Mark 2 digital sputnik lights which now we look at and go isn't that cute those are those are huge back then

like I remember when those came out like that was a big deal but yeah how is like shooting a movie change for you just sort of workflow wise technology wise in because I don't think of 2017 as being that far away

but I guess legally it's almost a decade. Oh, my God. I can't believe it. Yeah, no, I don't see that as that long ago, although it was a while ago for sure. I mean, at the time, so on that film, we talked about getting an airy, an Alexa mini. And then the argument was made that at that time of years, it was in the fall in the north, in the forest, and up here in Canada, so the light disappears at like 3.30.

right especially in the forest if you were on the highest peak you'd be all right for for a while but we were in a forest also with with a hill so like we were yeah by 330 that sun was out of the sky it was over the horizon basically i think it was about 330 um because we were approaching winter at that point so um based on the fact that we were losing so much light in our day um and then you can only start so early because it's just a shorter window of daylight so the argument was made that what if we got the camera like the c300 which really was i think the only option at the time to allow us to go into 6400 and then we pushed it further than i was comfortable doing but i it was out of necessity uh we went to 120 whatever it is i

wrote the article 1 1 1 1,800 yeah um so that camera was, I think that was the win for that camera simply because we could extend our day and literally there was a scene we shot inside and we were running late so we had to break for lunch and I was super nervous because I said well as soon as we get back

the sun like the sun's gone the sky is a different color but mainly the light we can always fix the color in the gray it was the light that I was worried about and and I tried to I say and we just like, can we just go just a little bit longer

so we could wrap this scene up? I can't come back here. And sure enough, I think we came back and that's when I bumped the camera up. I lost all the ND in the camera. I think there's, yeah, there's like 10 stops in that camera. So as we lost light, I progressively reduced the stops. But we planned it so that the one shot that was left to shoot

was looking outside. So I was looking at the sky, as opposed to the, you know, We weren't getting any light from the sky, but at least if the cameras pointed at the sky, we could see that there was, you know, crank the ISO, all of a sudden, it's a bright sky. So, yeah, that was the main reason for the C300, but I'll be honest, I don't love that camera. I didn't love it at the time, and we ran into some issues after, it was after the first day, I think we started getting calls from post because the, the, the, the, C300 mark two, the mark one

was great. The mark two a new sensor 4K but a different it was a different sensor. So it was I'm 90% sure I know this. It was the same sensor in the C-100, the C-500, the C-300 mark one

and Mark two. The issue was the C-300 marked everyone was bitching about needing 4K. So with a new processor they just didn't the original, the C-100 C-100 mark two and C-3 300, all take a 4K image and then super sample it to 1080. So that kills a lot of noise, you know, sharper image, lower file sizes, whatever.

C300 mark two, everyone was like, we need 4K, we need 4K, so they just didn't do that. So the images were intended to be downsampled to 1080, but were being output sort of natively, and it never looked that great. Yeah, so you've used the C300 mark two? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then this is a C-100 mark two, which is essentially the same thing, but only does 1080 like the C-300. This is more like a C-300 that shoots to SD cards. Right.

So, well, the issue that we noticed, because generally it was okay and like we were going to add texture to the image anyway. I think the, or I know the biggest issue was there was this thing. And I got on the phone with Canon, actually, because I just needed to understand what I was experiencing and how to mitigate. it if possible. But they called it sensor streak. And what was it was taking highlight information from one part. Like if let's say I'm driving in a car, that's when I first noticed it, I'm driving in a car, you know, you're looking at the window, it's very bright out the window.

That brightness gets transferred to the darker side of the other side of the image. And it gives you bands like three horizontal, two, at least two horizontal bands. It's been a while. but it was like these two horizontal bands one being magenta another one being green so you had like a green and magenta flag basically

in different areas of the shadows and so the yeah they flagged it in post and they were very concerned and they were trying to understand what it was and the solution they were coming up with

was and you just put more light in the shadows and I was like first of all we shouldn't have to do that. We don't have to do it when we're not looking at such a hot part of the frame. But secondly, no, it's a thriller. It's dark.

It's a really dark film. Right. Exposed everything also quite low to begin with. But I started to try to incorporate these ideas and it just threw me. And then I realized I couldn't chase this thing. I was just going to have to make calls per shot just to try to avoid the other. that issue and and then in post they try to massage things down the problem is it's not like noise where you can de noise or take an even spread of of color noise uh and suppress that it's like

lines of color so even if you took the color out you'd still have these lines anyway um that's what I learned about that camera and that was that was my Achilles heel or the Achilles heel of that camera and made me never want to use it again. Yeah, I thought you were going to say fixed pattern noise, which is why I went on about the 4K thing, but... Oh, maybe as well, but yeah, I know this issue was more prevalent. Did Canon give you a solution, or was their solution? Just don't do that. They just acknowledged it. And I think at the time I was also talking to them about the C-500. Do you remember that? Yeah, it was 300, the 700.

Which is now the C-500 mark two, because nobody used that. It was like doing the right size here, but it was massive. It was bigger than an Alexa Classic. Yeah, they basically just took the same sensor, made a big brick of a body and with mounting points. They were so excited about their mounting points. And I was like, great, it's great, it's a box, it's got mounting points, it weighs a ton, it's too long, and it's the same sensor as the C300 Mark 2.

And so I was talking about that, and he said, no, same sensor. So I'm like, so same sensor streak issue? They're like. Yes. Same sensor. Yes. All we've done is added a processor so it can double the frame rates. Yeah.

Anyway. Yeah, they've done really well. I feel like with the C500 mark two, the C70 is a, and C300 mark three are very impressive. I like the C70 is like, I own both of them. That's the reason I'm bringing it up. that C-400 looks cool but yeah it's always been interesting to me that they that does tend to be

the canons tend to be documentary only and then you know Sony gets enough work on pretty much everything and obviously Ari yeah well it's changed a lot since that mark two yeah and I agree with you

from what I've seen I haven't used the C70 I've I think I briefly tested maybe on like an development shoot, I think I used the C-300 Mark 3. And it's beautiful. I, and the C-500 as well, actually. A lot of docs are being shot in the C-500, that full-frame sensor, you know, a lot of docks.

And that's when I was exposed to it. But yeah, back to what you're saying, just about the technology evolving. we're in a place now as I'm sure you've talked to all your DPs about that the technology is there we don't we're not striving for anything it's all there it's just finding the right tool for the job when I started it was it was to to have your fill look like film you into shoot on film there was no work around it was I'm dating myself but it was pre just pre 24P

and I was just talking to someone about this 24P coming out was huge that was amazing it was amazing and then and then

you know lens adapters and then you know larger format the 24P of course after that

but before 24P it was all about shooting film even if you're shooting on 16 as soft as the image was and as challenging

as yeah it wasn't you know it was what it was. It wasn't 35. It was still better because it looked like

film. It looked like a film. Yeah, I have a weird like theory. So what we're getting at is the image cadence at 24 looks more like film than 30 or 60 like normal DV cameras

or VHS, whatever games. I have, I won't die on this hill because I don't care. But I I do think that subconsciously somehow we can tell that global shutter looks more filmic. Yes. Not even when it's like in motion.

Obviously in motion, you know, you're negating rolling shutter, so that's a thing. But like I, for whatever reason, I feel like we can tell. We can't, but we can. But it's the same thing as film. Right, right. Because the film is getting a full experience. a full exposure before it moves on, it's not, it's not rolling through it. Right.

Like a rolling shutter. So the global shutter, 100%, I can, I saw it as soon as I saw the Comodo material or before that Black Magic released their, their global shutter camera years ago. Do they? The production poor K. This is, I think it was billed as a, as a dual. It was, I don't know if that was the one or the Ursa, but they were talking about a, I switchable sensors, so global

and a rolling shutter. I guess the rolling shutter giving you the greater dynamic range. Right. But anyway... Yeah, it's just the commoto now, I guess. Yeah, but when you see those images or you handle the camera and then watch your images,

I can tell. I'm very sensitive to shutter and shutter adjustment. Anytime the shutter's greater than 180, I know it's been done for for reasons of exposure to let a little more light in or some people might like that streakier look

but I often find it in like darker scenes I'll see that that shutter's been opened up a little yeah those that's more obvious but I'm also I hear what you're saying about the global shutter and I completely agree it's yeah and very excited actually to test the new the V-Raptor the global shutter V-Raptor on something oh yeah yeah I mean

I use a that V-Raptor a while ago just as a test like I did a short film that I still haven't finished editing I filmed it like two years ago but it was just for this article you know so I didn't

but I have plenty of time I should do that but it's the first that's the first read where I was like they figured it out we did it we finally got one

you know that doesn't piss me off every time I turned it on yeah no they've come a long way yeah but at the same time, the rolling shutters, the, what is it, the, I guess the refresh rate, what are we calling a latency of the sensor, of the CMOS sensors?

Yeah. Like, or refresh rate? Yeah, it's the, yeah, I guess refresh rate. Yeah, is so fast on the Venice being, I think, the leader at like three milliseconds or something. Like that is basically a global shutter. You don't need anything beyond that. Yeah, there's, I literally see, I wish I had like an assistant who could just tell, because I did, there's a website called Cini D that does a lot of these tests.

I think you're right. The Venice is way up there. I mean, we started with a global shutter. If you think about the broadcast cameras and the three chip. Right. CCDs, those were, those were a global shutter. or a similar concept. And then once we introduced the CMOS

for all the reasons that those sensors had their advantages, that we wanted to go back and have a global shutter. That eliminated the Jello issue, but then the technology improved on the CMOS sensor so much that Jell is not an issue anymore.

And then Red releases their global shutter, I think would have made a bigger splash you know three, four years ago when we were still dealing with these low latency or these slow refresh rate Seamoss sensors. Anyway. They changed the CNAD website.

I just opened it up and I was like, this is new. I don't know how to look for what I'm looking for. But yeah, that Venice kills. What did you shoot wolves on? Outcome the wolves we shot on the Alexa Mini LF. Nice. which on one hand

I mean I love the camera the mini LF is sort of kind of a home base for me if I just had to reach for one camera I think it's the gold standard besides the Venice I which you one could argue one way or the other but I think pretty much everyone almost universally agrees

that the mini LF is probably the gold standard yeah it performs like it does everything that that you want it to do I mean, the image itself is just such a beautiful image. But having the full frame, that larger format can be helpful, can be, you know, stylistic. But yeah, I just love the way the image looks. And when I'm shooting and shooting full frame, we use vintage lenses on wolves, so, or wolves. And what's nice about the full frame vintage glass is seeing right to,

the edges. So, you know, you could put, you know, in this case, we shot with the FDs, which are oh, nice. Similar to the K-35s, as you probably know. And yeah, so there's extra, extra goodness on the edge, you know, you're falling off right to the... It's like a smash burger, you know? Exactly. It's got the Krispies on the outside. Exactly. You're just going to, you're not, you don't get the full, you don't get all the benefits. So, um, so, um, so. So, yeah, so going full frame, paired with the vintage lenses, which the director Adam and I had talked about for quite some time since, you know, we started soft prep.

We were, he was very excited about everything vintage, but specifically to this story, he wanted to, you know, he was, all the references he was pulling were either captured using vintage. primes and or affected in the grade and or shot on 35 or per year. So there were all these elements that contributed to that sort of vintage feel that he responded to. So right away we lined up. I lined up some camera or some lens tests and brought him out. And he's a very, he responds very quickly.

when he sees something he likes. And as we were flipping out, lens after lens. And we also entertained anamorphic lenses as well. Sure. So I just wanted him to see, I just want to see what he would respond to. I have reasons for wanting to shoot either. But he definitely responded to the spherical over the anamorphic, and he saw all the advantages to the spherical,

just in terms of size, post-focused. the speed. Yeah. When he saw me changing the lens and he saw the limitations with the close focus and he was like, okay, get rid of the anamorphics. So then we were down to the spherical vintage lenses and I mean, we, there's a few sets that are absolutely gorgeous, but in terms of what was available to us during production or for the production period, these ones came in both.

as available and affordable. Yeah. For me, honestly, those, I don't know if you've used the, the rehoused FDs. Yeah.

They're so compact. Yeah, I've got, great. I got Nikors, and they're kind of the, I mean, they're not rehoused,

but even so, they're like, you know, still very, and then when they get rehoused, you know, it makes them almost like twice as big, but still it's not a ton of glass in there.

And these look, is there a, bridge between the FDs and like a more modern lens but yeah they're nice and small compact I imagine speed was probably a factor on that shoot because

it like I watched it literally earlier today and about halfway through I was like wait a minute this is only like two locations but it like the scope feels a lot bigger you know it reads as two locations but it's the scope

like the geography to get to all those spots was brutal was a lot so yeah it was a fast and furious shoot we only had 16 days damn okay that is three three of which were spent with the wolves um so we shot those separately those were shot in alberta and which is where the the wolf team the the trainer trainers um have the wolf compound and uh because we were on such a tight budget traveling the wolves a couple provinces over was

you know the cost of that you don't see it on screen it was it made more sense for us to go over there so we went over there and then we had to find a forest that would match a forest that we were shooting in Ontario

and yeah it's that was also challenging and we drove around So we went on actually on two, I think it was two separate scouting excursions to look around. And we were bouncing between all these forests that were within a reasonable distance from where the wolves were kept. Yeah, anyways, eventually we landed on a forest. And that was similar, not quite the same because it and also the time of year that we shot in Alberta.

because it's a little farther north and they literally had snow until I think the day, like the day before we got there. Wonderful. And you've seen the film, there's no snow in the film. It's funny, though. It was written as a winter film initially and then it changed.

But yeah, so going to Alberta, we didn't know are we going to get there and then we've got a foot or two feet of snow to deal with. There's no way. You know, Adam would look at me, like, is there any way we can, I'm like, color grade that out? We need to get brands now? And you can't shovel it and you can't take a torch to it.

I mean, you're in a forest. So you just have to avoid it. And when we got there, there was, there were a couple little piles that we could just easily, you know, kick up and, you know, throw some leaves on. So that was no problem. But, yeah, so the scope. that the film itself is a cabin and woods. What you don't see or what you don't get is that the wolves were shot separately.

Right. And one, and we kept it in a fairly contained area so that, yeah, just to simplify things and just moving the camp and finding different areas that we had already scouted Ontario and trying to line those up with areas in the Ontario forest. But again, it's forest. So you can get away with a lot. Yeah. And then when we got back to Ontario, we had so many spots picked out.

It was this beautiful conservation area in Dundas, Ontario. And huge, beautiful rolling hills. It's like a real hike through there and water flowing all around. It gave us so many options, so many looks. but that said we had to get into the forest so you know moving gear moving us from base camp into their that took a whole lot of time it wasn't like we got to set and we could just crank out takes we had to travel back and forth all the time and then if we had to clear background oh my god okay now we're shooting this a oh everybody clear in it you know there's one little path

everybody has to take, and then we've got to cover the path with leaves. So it came with those kinds of challenges, but just to say that the geography, like the spread of the locations was actually pretty significant. Yeah. Well, and I was hoping you were going to say, no, it was great. We just all, like, left all the gear in the cabin, you know, went back to our hotels. Because sometimes a shoot is like that, you know, when it's like a limited location shoot, you're like, we just kind of leave everything there.

I was just interviewing a guy who shot a horror film in a house and they just like, I think he said like a couple of people just stayed in the house. You know, they would just leave the gear staged because like no one, you know, they're there. You know, just made it really easy to do turn around. It is funny though for on like any low budget thing, really anything, but they always say like don't work with kids or animals and you guys chose fucking wolves and deer. So, you know, it's funny, the deer, we always forget about the deer. The deer's not in the title and makes only, you know, small appearances before it's, it's dead.

And then we didn't kill a deer, by the way. I assumed. Train deer. I mean, but, yeah, the deer are totally skittish. So you can't, and I don't know if you can actually train deer. I am, dude, deer are the, I grew up in a foresty area more or less, where they, There were deer's and, uh, deers. And, uh, yeah, no, they're idiots.

They, they, they're just so dumb. Their brain is the size of a golf ball and their fight or flight is broken. It's just permanently stuck on sit. There's no fight or flight with. Brutal. And then when they do fight, they're gone. That was my, that was my experience. And, and yeah, so I don't know if the deer were trained.

I think they were just wrangled. So we got them off the trailer, put them in the fence. an area, threw me in, and, you know, I just rolled trying to catch this moment, that moment, you know, reach out, switch a lens. And it's amazing, actually, because we got the pieces we needed and we shot that whole thing in like, it felt like 15 minutes. It was so fast. It was the end of the day. Maybe we'd bumped it from the day before, two days before. And yeah, I think it was like 15 minutes. I was in the cage. And this deer, just running around.

I'm just trying to get a variety of shots. And the way it was used in the film, I was delighted to see how, yeah, those two, three shots. And how intentional it looked. It's intentional. It's exactly what we needed. And the one shot that I thought was really well done,

they'd taken sort of the fuller shot of the deer, the first time you see the deer in the distance. Right. And that's just a comp. They just put that deer in there. And we shot the plate and they put it in and just matched it to the camera movement. Yeah, I thought they did a fantastic, fantastic job there. But the deer, yeah.

And I'd shot with reindeer. Have you ever seen a reindeer last? I've seen one live at a museum, actually. There was like a holiday. Yeah, they're weird. Yeah, strange-looking animal. But, yeah, in backcountry, had some reindeer. and the same, like, less skittish, but just aloof.

I don't know. So, again, just film as soon as you get the opportunity. Just point the camera, get what you can. The wolves were amazing. The wolves were so, I want to say, majestic and, you know, beautiful and all of that. But the training that they had and the interaction and, And the respect between the trainers and the animals was just amazing to see. The wolves had all been raised, born into the family.

You know, trainers compound, massive compounds, lots of room for these animals to run around and lays around. And, yeah, but they'd been training them for a long time for this film. Because as you saw in the film, there's a series of shots. There's everything from a snarl to, you know, obviously running. There's some action. Some action. There's groups.

There's singles. Then we also involved some stunt actors, which also had to train with the animals. And so, and they were cast essentially to look, you know, same sort of height and build based on our three characters. and they were training with the wolves for for weeks and maybe months and yeah so shooting all of capturing all those elements was was very humbling to just be in the space with these animals yeah um and it was just me uh me and the trainer my director and uh first AC so Adam, the director, and first A.C. Ryan McIntyre, they were

in a cage at a distance caged in. And I think that I... You're there wearing hockey pads just like, don't kill me. Nice visual, no hockey pads. No, no, no. It's just the camera.

I had an easy rig with me as well. But honestly, it was just about staying as small as I could and not looking them in the eye, not challenging them in any way. And this also came from having spent some time with them before on our scouts when we went to scout the forest. In Alberta, we went to visit the compound,

and we met all those beautiful wolves and sat with them. And at one point I was sitting with, we were sitting in an area, and what's the wolf in Game of Thrones? That would be honest, I haven't seen Game of Thrones. Yeah, okay. So, I mean, not a Game of Thrones guy. But it was that wolf because they do all those. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, cool. And more recently, the John Wicks, they did. And I mean, anytime you see a wolf, it's prosto. That's fascinating. Instinct is the company. Anyway, the relationship between Andrew Simpson, the lead trainer and those wolves and everyone. was just incredible to see and I felt really safe

even though I was in there and I was completely exposed I could have been ripped apart if that was something the wolf might do I'm told that's not something they do but there was a moment where

because they're still wild animals right you know you ask them to do something you reward them with a a little piece of meat or something but they're also curious animals and they're distracted and

so there were times where we just needed I think it was a shot we needed the wolf to travel A to B so you know right of camera across the frame and it was one of these they came out and then whoop you're going to stop

sniff our foreground stunt character and and he had fake blood we dressed him up ripped and he'd already been attacked in the film so he has the fake blood on him and the wolf was distracted

by the smell and they love fake blood something I learned so it's like candy and so the wolf came back and started to started to go at our stunt actor's arm

and then you know was pulled off no problem but then there was another take when the wolf saw me like registered me sitting I was on, I think I was on an apple box behind the tree. And the wolf clocked me and then came over and like, like nudged me. Nudge is a nice word.

It was like a nose pudded. Yeah. It was like, yeah, I was like, boom, big, big nose to the head to the temple and almost knocked me off my box. And that was a moment where I realized, oh, yeah, like this is real. I'm not in a bubble. There's nothing protecting me. Well, and looking through the monitor, too, you probably just start to lose all sense of, you know, you're just there.

You're in the seat. Yeah. And you bury yourself in the monitor. You want to just be focused. You want to make sure everything, everything, you're constantly scanning the frame and checking, you know, making sure everything. Making sure you hit record. And then that, yeah, the record symbols there, all of that. And so, yeah, this caught me off surprise, which was, which was kind of a cool moment.

It was, it was very humbling. they're also huge I don't think most people understand how big a wolf is it's not dog sized no bigger a little big in way bigger it's like when you see an elk and you're like

that's not a deer that's different I think one of the facts that I learned about the wolves is that they have is it the second or excuse me third strongest jaw and whatever

of all animals They have the whatever, most pounds per whatever that measurement is to bounce for square inch. Compression. But yeah, one of the strongest jaws

of any animal. So, yeah, you don't want to, yeah, you got to be careful of which you're in there. I'm sure.

But it was, that experience was just incredible. Yeah. I did want to ask about your shot, because there's a bunch of great little yeah I wouldn't even call it B-roll but like there's like you like frames like you'll just kind of it feels like I kind of want to know how you put if you plan for this or if you just do it and what you're looking for but like there'll be people in a background and

you'll just get like a frame you know maybe it's like in a room through like a window like I remember there's one that you know it's like in a shed maybe looking out at the people practicing to bow and but there's like a bunch of those like all over the film there's just these little kind of like spice just a little bit of extra spice and i was wondering if you if you find that stuff kind of on the day if you plan for like is that in the shot list or is that what's that all about because i thoroughly enjoy it yeah so that shot is funny i that shot specifically where the the guys are outside um doing their archery practice uhiles teaching nolan how to use the ball and it was just like a moment to take a a break

breath and step back with some layers between us and them and a chance to build a little tension as well. Adam saw the shot, imagined. It was actually, yeah, we had planned to grab that shot when we were scouting. We saw that like, oh my God, this is great because the window pane, pretty big window, the window pane that we were looking through was completely dirty. and so it was picking up the sunlight, the backlight, and it was just creating just, it was just so dirty. And by stepping back on a pretty wide frame with the foreground, clearly, you know, we're in that space. It's like you have to look hard to see them. Like you can feel them, you can hear them, but it's not obvious because it's like very low contrast through the window paint

because of all the dirt on the window. But I love that shot. And when I saw it at the screening on Friday, the big screen, I appreciated that so much more than when I was shooting it. And I was just looking at a little seven inch. I'm like, I know the elements are here. I know this is something that would be interesting. Right.

But it wasn't until I saw it on like, I don't know how big those movie screens are. and I was just like wow that that was a nice moment and for the film that that plays very close to our characters um especially once we're into

the attacks um it was nice just to have that breath before we we set out into the end of the woods yeah yeah because even like when they first meet there's like a you know a window like a

um door frame kind of we're shooting we're shooting through a yeah through a door frame so we're inside I think it's yeah it was the bedroom that's right the bedpost in the foreground and yeah it's just a nice little production value bump in my mind like it just every time you know in the forest you know sometimes there'd just be like a wider shot and like I don't know why it stuck out to me but it was like I just liked it I was like I like these little interstitials here or whatever you want to call them yeah no I like those kinds

of things I think building in layers as you know just always makes things feel more interesting And again, like a lot of the film, we're in there with our characters. So there is no foreground for a lot of it once they're out in the woods. So to build that stuff in ahead of time. And for Adam, like he wanted to also hold off on revealing the Nolan character. And so that was just one extra shot to show them together without showing them in focus. I think we were, yeah, we were focused on the, on the foreground, so. Yeah.

What was the lighting situation like? Were you, were you just kind of shaping everything available using practicals, or is there one of those situations where there was a lot more work than meets the eye? I, so the, sorry, I'll fly. The, all the cabin stuff, daytime interior, we, we pushed light from outside. So we had some ultra bounces that we, redirected the sun through the windows. And that was pretty well.

I mean, the production design, first of all, I should have gone. Production design is great. Our production designer, Brian Garvey, and his team did such a beautiful job of the space. I mean, that cabin did not look like that. You know, there was wood paneling. There was paint that happened.

And then obviously all the furniture and just how everything was arranged was so, it was beautifully appointed for such an old-looking, you know, cabin that has probably been in the story had been there for a hundred years or something. But even during the day, we wanted to feel the mood of the cabin

because when we were in there, that's what it was to the eye. It was like, no, I love this. Everything is just kind of down. We have bright windows, and then in here, it's dark, and we feel the practical. So all the lamps, the tungsten fixtures,

those were part of the mood. It's not like it was a brighter space in his daytime so you wouldn't have the lamps on. This was a darker space. So we had all those lamps on. And yeah, just the combination of the warm and then the daylight push from outside. And then the bedroom scene, for instance,

the window we couldn't bounce light through that window so we just pushed some i think it was a light mat eight or something we used the window and pushed a big source through um my got for uh edwin low set that up and uh yeah so keeping things pretty natural and and with the range of the the Alexa too i just love the way it looks and you can keep things low and i'm I feel I'm never too worried about the bottom end. And in fact, that's where we end up wanting to put our images anyway. Yeah. So in the cabin, I would say for the most part, practicals.

And then, you know, some of those practicals were NICs bulbs, so we could control the color temperature and exposure. And, but yeah, actually, for the night stuff, we went with incandescent, I guess. Yeah, they were incandescent. and the table lamp and are you some of those lines you're still able to get regular light bulbs in Canada because at least in California you can't you can only get like oven bulbs you know like

little 25 watt little not going to help anybody appliance bulbs yeah yeah um you know what I I don't know I've I saw bulbs from you know a long time ago however many shows ago I just, you stock up, you just stock up. And I think, yeah, my gaffer probably has a decent stock of those old, those old fixtures or bulbs. But they're great. And I think, you know, over the table we probably put a 100 watt or something. Yeah. And then some of that stuff we filled in and got some eyelights using the CRLS reflect.

Oh, nice. you might be the first person I met who's actually used them. Most people want to use those and just haven't. They're not very good at advertising their availability. And well, now Matthews owned them, so maybe it's a little bit better.

But yeah. Yeah. You can, I just, they're costly. I think that's a, that's a part of it. But I love them. I,

as soon as they came out and I started testing them, I was like, no, these are really special. They're not just, you know, metal reflectors with, with different diffusion, it's also that the diffusion that comes off of them is focused.

So you get the diffuse quality, but it's not spraying everywhere. And to me, that's genius. That's like, it's like a light with a grid on it. Yeah. But it's, yeah, but it's a reflector. So that came in super handy. Like I can't remember what the number was, but like one of the softer diffusions, just redirecting the overhead light, boom, all of a sudden.

Now we've just lifted in the face and under the eyes and then it puts an eye light where if the eye light, you know, the lamp itself was overhead and didn't quite hit the eye. So that came in really useful for that. And then at one point we created a sort of a late sun, sort of peachy sun coming in from the window scraping across the table. It's subtle, but it's there. I think we were we were using a pro light and and just yeah once you bounce that there was only so much output on it but I thought it looked lovely and I love that quality of reflected light so and I did request the the light bridge system for this shoot I know it was a it was the one item that I it's funny I kind of had to push for it because it's expensive it's just not it's the end of That is a big reason why people don't use them.

That and then I think also the fact that they're not a great rental item because you have to be so careful with them. Right. That as soon as, like I've seen them at the end of a shoot, we've had a brand new set. And then by the time we return it, there's like chunks, selling out edges and are chunks in the edges. And if you haven't handled them, they say to handle them with, you know, white gloves or, I don't know if they say this, but you probably should.

I pretty sure they give you white gloves. Oh, really? Yeah, if you buy, like if you buy a pack, I'm pretty sure they come with gloves. Yeah, because the, yeah, if you touch them with your hands and anyone is working, it just gets dirty, vast. And I don't know how they clean. They must have a cleaning. I think it also comes with like, yeah, a little spray bottle and some other stuff.

I've seen them at like Sennegear or, you know, shows like that. Yeah. But if you can get your hands on a kit and just play around and see what, what you get out of it. It's pretty cool. I mean, it's a tool like any of these things. I just think it saved me space. And that's why I used them where I wanted to keep a fixture outside. One scene I did or one space I was lighting on a documentary actually a few years ago. We were inside a motel and we just, we wanted to keep as all gear out. It was inside was just myself and sound. and in order to do that, I mean, I wanted to push the daylight into the room and just have that be the light source,

but I couldn't fit a light where I wanted it because there was an overhang, and I wasn't going to clamp it. It was like a whole ordeal to get that, and then once it's up there, then how do I adjust it? Like, forget all that. So we just threw up a reflector. I angled the reflector with my gaffer, and we shot the light from underneath, under the window. Yeah. I think one of the big things that people seem to be excited about about that thing is the prospect of putting, you know, a number of the reflectors on one C-stand, mounting a big-ass light on the bottom, and then, you know, having multiple lights essentially on one stand using one light. Because the reflectors might be expensive, but, you know, depending on how you do the math or whatever, like being able to turn one fixture into four,

potentially might be a savings but certainly a space savings you know yeah at least that's i think that's when i'm reading like instagram comments i that seems to be what people think about when they think of that system that's a great point and i not something that i've done a lot i maybe i've done it once where i've doubled up um but i think that's also that's the big where it gets interesting is where you can layer the quality of light from the same source. So let's say you have like the big soft broad, you know, giving us, I think it's a hundred centimeter or something, you get that nice big soft source. And then within that same source or just next to it, you get a highly reflective.

And then you get a slash or a hotspot on whatever, the table, the person, whatever you're aiming at. I think that's where it starts to get really interesting. And I haven't quite played with that too much. but that's that's absolutely kind of the magic of it and I mean there's there's there's a lot it checks a lot of boxes for me that the space savings the rigging making it's like throwing a stand up high with a reflector on it takes two seconds and to adjust that bring it down make a tweak and you don't need 400 pounds a shot you know it's really in fact you know what the shot is

it's the light it's clamped to the space of the state yeah yeah yeah You don't need a sandbag? So I think it's a really smart system. I think the biggest challenge, and I'm sure there's a lot of chatter online. It seems like there's more chatter about it lately. I think it's made more. Yeah. Made the rounds a bit more.

I think that's Matthews, because like all these trade shows, now Matthews has like a CRLS setup. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it's fantastic. And yeah, I think the one element that people don't realize by looking at the, the, the units is that that diffused light is actually controlled it doesn't just spray everywhere like if you shot a piece of muslin or something you grabbed a mirror and just hit it with some like dulling spray yeah there's a reason they're as expensive as they are I'm guessing yeah I know

a company came out with you know Chinese companies be out here just copying everything but I think I think it's like go docs honestly made their version of it be interesting it would be interesting to see how they compare. Yeah. I'll have to figure out if I can do. I'm a journalist. I can probably figure that out. I know I've got the ear of Matthews. I was supposed to get a CRLS set and then I think it was like the strikes or something started happening and I was like, I don't know, let me wait until I get a gig and then

I'll like truly test it out and then that never materialized. But yeah, I would test it out. is you might want to use those on your chute on your shirts um well i i actually uh have another interview right after this so i i will i will have to let you go but uh the the movie looks great like obviously with a lot of films you can tell like okay this this didn't have a multi a billion dollar budget uh but this one definitely feels uh you guys are punching well above your weight and looks great it's fun film i i went into it i thought it was a horror film but it's like a thriller

It's more thriller Yeah The other guy The guy I'm about to interview Is a horror film And then that's a comedy So like my I watched both of them back to back

And my radars were just all over the place I was like when is when does the bad guy show Oh they're actual wolves Oh okay I mean how many interviews have you done I think this will be 164 That's crazy

something like that so that's awesome that must be so great um i've really enjoyed this conversation so i can only imagine you have a different conversation with and there's every d p's got got something to yeah i mean out of out of 160 whatever i've only had one that i was like damn that's that's uh that was a tough chat you know i think uh well listen we're behind the camera for a reason right Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, sometimes it's hard to talk about this stuff, but I got to say it's been, it's been really easy to talk to you because I really feel like we're just shooting the breeze D.P. to D.P.,

so you like it easy, Annie. Well, you're very, I very much appreciate the compliments. I'll be flying high on those for the next four days. But yeah, I'll let you go. Please stay in touch, man. It'll be great chat with you going forward. Take care. Cheers.

Frayman Reference is an Albot production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so on Patreon by going to frame and reppod.com, where you can get all the episodes and clicking the Patreon button. It's always appreciated, and as always, thanks for listening. still listening. At the beginning of the podcast, Christian and I had about a 10-minute conversation about the podcast setup. So if you're a very nerdy person who wants to know exactly what gear and whatnot goes into recording this, here you go. Otherwise, there's no film stuff here. This is all

nerdy podcast stuff going forward for the next 10 minutes or so. So enjoy that if you enjoy that. I went through the, because I don't have a proper setup, to be honest, your, like my second interview, I just did one last week, and that's when I was scrambling and I realized, how am I going to do this? I don't have the tools that all the YouTube and the podcasters have with the rich. And your podcast, I mean, it's like the mic is, I don't know where it is, but it seems like it's right here. Yeah, like it's about. It's a beautiful sound. Yeah, I'll show you. It's just a one of these guys say, um, AKG 214 Okay KG in 214 If I can sound like you Kenny

I'll tell you what So it's it's an AKG 214 so it's an XLR Mike It does require Phantom power So it's going into A relatively inexpensive

I think it's got two inputs on it UMC 22 By Euphoria Letter U for you and then for post processing

it used to be a lot more complicated and then you know as you probably know the more you get into something the less you need you know when you first start out you need all the lights and you need a gimbal and everything and after a while you're like man tripod and a four buy

that's good you know and a stick yeah yeah so now the signal chain is like I'll do the dialogue enhance if I need to usually I'll just do it anyway but and then

Neutron 4 which is part of the isotope pack because the dialogue enhanced already does noise reduction sometimes you might need to chuck more noise reduction in there but that's rare and then so yeah I just have like a pretty basic bandixol sort of high in the

the lows, a little scoop in the mids and then high in the highs and the shelf on either side. And then there's this thing called vocal writer, which is a plug-in. Obviously, everyone's first, there is compression on the signal chain, but everyone's first instinct is to compress everything to make it sound sort of NPR-like. And especially for like dialogue and shows, movies, whatever, you know, You know, people don't compress like that. That doesn't sound natural, but they will ride the fader as it's happening, you know? And so Vocal Rider does that automatically, where instead of compressing it, it just rides the volume knob for you to keep everything within a defined range.

And that sounds a lot more natural and kind of, I like that personally. Yeah, no, it sounds great. I mean, I thought you did some sound work on your podcast. I've listened to a number of them and they sound great. Your mic is, I can see the best of the lot, your sound. But even, like I was, I was concerned about my non-podcast setup here for, for Mike. So I was worried, I was hoping you'd do something, a little, little fix. Oh, yeah, it'll.

A little more bass. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everyone gets the same. Any McMillan bass. Yeah, both of our dialogues get the same signal chain. The other thing you could do, though, is if you get, voice meter banana I don't know why they called it that there's a way to basically have a digital patchboard so you can add effects VST effects or whatever

into your signal chain before it gets to you would just on like zoom or whatever it may be under your audio click the little carrot and then choose voice meter as the is like the patch cable and so your audio will go through those effects before it hits. There's a... Yeah, I did a whole bunch of random thing. Like, the first few episodes, I wasn't recording on the camera. I was just recording the Zoom call because I was using a C500 mark two.

So 6K full frame was not, you know, necessary. And then it used to be on a tripod and there used to be like a whole lighting situation. now I just park myself near the window and I've got the C100 just like mount like clamp to a shelf you know it's great no it's nice too you're not overlit it's just a nice soft yeah very natural very natural looking good good DP work good instincts appreciate I actually didn't at first want to do that and then a buddy of mine who's not a DP was like no one knows who you are if these fancy DP show up and they see like the crappy webcam they're not going to take you seriously.

So I was like, ah, shit, you're right. So then I did start lighting heavily. And then I was like, no one actually cares. Those are swings and roundabouts. The audio is definitely more important. Totally. In fact, I didn't know you had the YouTube. I was listening to it on as a audio podcast.

And then, you know, it's two entirely different audience. Yeah, it's two different audiences completely. I think the, and I think it's an age gap too. I think the audio listeners tend to be like older professionals and I think the YouTube tends to be

not younger amateurs but like you know it's just the audience of that platform and so I don't really get much feedback from either but just you know

looking at random you know just trying to piece it together I find I think I think is when you're in your early 30s or older, you're more prone to podcasts, you know? It's like, it's like NPR, whatever, frame and reference. Well, what I love about it is it's time, like the day is already so spoken for every of the day.

And I want to get away from my screen. So the podcast is a way to do that. Yeah. relax and and but but be consuming uh consuming wrong word but be like absorbing and listening to interesting information yeah so um you know it's great to go for walks and and you know wash the dishes or whatever it is i'm doing where i just i want to get off the computer yeah but i want to take a minute and and like listen to a conversation um and last night i was Go ahead.

I was listening to you last night just while whacking tennis balls against a brick wall, you know, just working on my swing. And it was nice to, it was very relaxing, just listening to a conversation. And I can double up. Yeah, which one was it? A couple episodes. I'm trying to remember. I think it.

I don't remember right now. That's fine. I honestly like. I've listened to a few of them and I don't remember all the titles. because there, some of them were titles that I hadn't seen. Oh, it was, um, yeah. Yeah, I honestly, I find that at first I was a little, like, nervous that if I didn't have Roger Deacons, whatever, within the first, like, year, no one would listen.

And certainly that is the case that, like, you get a bigger name on more people are going to listen. That's the fact of life, right? Uh, that's why you get big actors to be in your movies, whatever. Um, however, I have found that the, more indie DPs or lesser known DPs tend to be more forthcoming with information I think at a certain point when you're really seasoned

you've got you're used to having a crew you know technology has changed under you but the workflow hasn't so I think a lot of older DPs tend to gloss over things that maybe beginners would like specificity on not realizing that it's like their AC or their gaffer who would handle that, you know, because you'll ask like an NDDP, like, what was your lighting set up here? And they'll be like, okay, well, that was a light mat for behind

this diffuse, because they set it up, right? You ask Bob Richardson, he goes, well, I put a soft light over there. I put a neg over there, you know, and he didn't know which one. I don't care. Yeah. Yeah, no, and that's what, again, I do, I'm really enjoying your podcast because of that. we're not glossing over some of the some of the other podcasts they're great and there's always some good nuggets there but you dig in about some specifics that uh and the in the conversations are so casual in a you give it time you're to draw these things out slowly and go on tangents it's it's a fun listen but then there's some some interesting pieces of information um to to as a as a as a dp listening to another DP talk it's uh it's nice to know that you're not alone

some of your your approaches or the the tools you reach for or uh you know whatever the challenges that you're having trouble overcoming yeah well i very much appreciate that yeah so that's that i uh forgot that he had kind of uh hit me with a bunch of compliments at the end but i left him in there because it's always nice to hear a testimony a lot obviously, but also as a reminder to you guys, like I said, I don't really get any feedback on this show. So, you know, if you're liking it, let me know. If you're not liking it and you have feedback, let me know if you're just not liking it. I don't know why you listened all the way to hear, but, but yeah, you know, it's always nice to hear from the audience. I don't know,

I don't know who listens. So, you know, just send a hay. Also, there's still the page. Also, there's still the Patreon if you want to get on that I you know Patreon.com slash frame and ref pod if you'd like it and yep so that's this episode I will get to editing the next episode because I'm traveling to work

okay bye