Frame & Reference Podcast - 166: "City of Dreams" DP Trevor Roach

Episode Date: November 21, 2024

This week we've got the lovely Trevor Roach on the program to talk about his work on the feature film "City of Dreams"! Enjoy! Visit https://www.frameandrefpod.com for everything F&R https://www.patreon.com/frameandrefpod Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coast's leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠⁠Filmtools.com⁠⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and you're listening to episode 166 with Trevor Roach, DP of City of Dreams. Enjoy. I've been screaming about that for like on this fucking podcast about just like not everything needs to be a billion dollar return and all the movies that everyone looks back. I also think the internet has stunted everyone's memory of like, because we're all kind of stuck in when the internet like right before the internet started. We're like that was the good times. You know, whatever was like 1999 or like maybe even 2000. Anything after that all seems to be one year.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, luckily our industry has gone through a lot over the last 100 plus years. I mean, I do think this is like with social media and the internet, this is probably the most, I don't know. It's a crossroads, right? It could go to different ways. We could see the die out of like long form media in a slow death where it's just like we're all developing ADHD.

and can only watch things for 45 seconds, I don't know. See, I don't, I was just talking to this about this to somebody like yesterday, but I don't actually think everyone has like, you know, short attention spans and like we're just, we're coming up against that. I think that the film and television industry hasn't created anything compelling enough to keep people to come back or distributed it in such a way that. entices people to want because like streaming it'll always be there so like

I produce a live event a stand up comedy show and I have for years you based in LA yeah yeah oh where where where do you perform uh I don't do I just produce it but it's oh you just it's okay oh okay nice that's every side set there's oh yeah

but I'll have to I'll have to check it out sometime where where's it at uh illusion magic lounge okay yeah I've heard of it I'll have to we'll have to check it out sometime yeah I'm always that I'm going to UCB like once or twice a month since I like it's literally a 10 minute drive from me. So yeah, I'm always all about the comedy shows. We're so lucky out here. Yeah, we used to do it in downtown, but no one wanted to go to downtown regardless of where they were in there. And we were like a nice part of downtown too, but people were just like, no.

I know. It's like downtown actually has its has its charms. It's just, um, I think if we were of other stuff too. Yeah. I even, yeah, I was about to say if we were like in the arts district, it might be different, but even that is right butted up against Skid Row, which is wild. It's, it is such a juxtaposition, but I guess that's what makes L.A. Yeah. But anyway, so the thing about doing the comedy show that I've noticed is when it's an event, like the first time, like if we go on a break, that first show back always hits, right?

If we have a massive comic on there and we spend like two weeks advertising it, that always hits. But when we just say, it's every other week, you know, then things go out. I think the same is true with streaming, right? It's always going to be there. It's always online. And on top of that, now we're having these six episode seasons where the next season doesn't show up for three years or it might get canceled. And you just never know. So I think we're just not, we're not incentivizing people to watch you're right I mean you you want you've been something and then you forget about it I mean that there was the beauty of like the I mean you go back and watch something like the West Wing right 20 episodes and you not only do you or they pieced out

by week so you had to kind of like it was the water cooler chat yeah but also you you you got time to live and grow with the characters right you got to like kind of make them your friends or enemies or whatever else and that's what a relationship is is it takes a while to develop if you're just like smushing it into like a straight just stay up all night watch binge it's it's it's almost like a one-night stand you know it's it's kind of it's you just move on it's uh i don't know um well and what's funny is the streamers know that shows like that are Like, they have the metrics to see, oh, people watch friends in the office and the West Wing a million times over, but they don't go make that. It's too much work.

Whatever fucking chat jeepin tells them to or whatever. Yeah, it means actual work, which, I mean, God forbid, we actually do. I mean. Right. Dude, I am, I'm, I was supposed to interview someone yesterday, but she had to scooge forward. But she had so for, anyway, um, I'm fascinated by. the disdain that that people seem to have towards artists when you're talking about god forbid we do any work like we create AI that's supposed to automate tasks and the first thing we do is automate art

which is like comes naturally to humans you know what doesn't fucking fast food let yeah not saying the fast food like workers like don't deserve jobs I'm just saying like we could automate that And then in a perfect world, create a, you know, I don't know, universal basic income or something where those, where those menial jobs get automated. And then those people are given the time and space to make art. Instead, we've done it the other way. Dude, I had a, I had some friends that they come from like the pharmaceutical background. So very analytical and science based. And I kind of introduced them.

We were all chatting about, you know, Jim and I. I think that's Google's... Yeah. That's so great. I have it on my phone. Yeah. It's not good. No, no, no.

It does some things. But like, but they were, you know, for them that aren't really necessarily always tapping into the creative side of their brain, they were blown away by it. Even if like every sitter single like example that they were kind of testing was almost the exact same thing, just like variations. Right. for them that's like a breast a breath of creativity that they haven't experienced and but you know for us creatives it's it's it's not it's not creative it's just regurgitating it's stealing it's um it well you can be the south part ticker on our drops but i mean yeah it's well in the the argument that i've heard which i understand but don't agree with is like

oh, this is, you know, akin to accessibility, you know, people who, whatever, couldn't draw now can create things in their minds. And I'm like, well, first of all, there have been artists with like no arms who have still created art. Like, that's not. Oh, yeah. But also, it's not that you can't draw. It's that, well, there's two ways. You haven't learned to. You can learn to do almost anything. Like, I don't believe this. Like, I just can't. It's like, well, practice. I can't hit a 95 mile an hour forcing fastball. But if I practiced enough, I probably might be able to get a piece of it, you know? Or you aren't kind of what I was saying earlier.

You're not given enough time to practice, which is a failure of society, not necessarily of one's own. But either way, that doesn't mean that that like I said, like humans are inherently creative. You get a rush when you make something. And to give that dopamine away. for free basically on the backs of other people's art isn't healthy let alone like um what not safe what am i trying to say like ethical you know no absolutely not i mean creativity isn't i think is like brought out by limitations i mean and if you have no limitations it's it's just regurgitated crap

I mean, it's, this is, it's partly why I'm not as afraid of, especially when it comes to like filmmaking AI, just because, okay, great, someday an audience member will be able to mash up their dream scenario of Star Wars and Star Trek into a, okay, but that novelty is going to wear off. I mean, it's already wearing off with what feels like AI, but the TV, Star Wars TV shows. I mean, it's like these, these bland not taking risk. um stories i mean it's it that's what that's what's killing it like that's what we should be afraid of i mean i i think ai is really interesting to potentially develop like pure it piece extension backdrops like oh sure yeah ivel footage for building out like a 1950s los angeles street for a, you know, like a film noir or something like that where you don't, maybe like a small independent film doesn't necessarily have the entire budget to build out a full on street or they don't have the VFX ability to build out all these VFX. They can potentially use archival footage, have it manipulated into kind of something close

to what they want. That I find interesting. I mean, I still see the ethical issues with it. But if you use it as a tool and not so much as like an idea that this is going to replace the creative artist, maybe we can use it. Well, but that also, I think it's, I 100% agree with you. But also, I feel like everyone gets a little over their skis about it because it's like, oh, now I can do anything. And it's like, okay, do you have an idea? And oftentimes the answer is no, they're just the idea of being able to make something is very exciting.

And it's like if you really did in my head need to create that 1950s backdrop, you could just do, if you have no budget, a lockoff shot and then take the still into Premiere, I mean into Photoshop, generate, you know, make the thing and just do a set extension, you know, like a like a mat painting basically. Yeah. And that's been, that's been, that's been, you've been able to do that forever, but you didn't make your short film, did you? yeah yeah I just can't yeah there's a lot of I can't and it's like I'm over I can't yeah I mean I got my first no but I think it's something in the water that makes people feel that way yeah yeah I mean we've we've had different tools in tech that I've said they're going to kill X and Y for a long time and I do think there's going to be a shift don't get me wrong there it already is but creative human thought is a commodity that hopefully hopefully never is going to go away. I mean, at least not in our lifetimes. I mean, the ability of like original content, content man, I hate that. I know. They've trained this to say it. Yeah. Yeah. It's scary. It's scary. But creative stories. I mean, creative original stories that hit your gut. Those are always going to be, I think, what Gardner the most sustainability. And I mean, we. You're not going to go to Burger King if you're looking for, and this is maybe pretentious, but like you're, you're not going to go to Burger King if you're looking for a Michelin Star restaurant. Me like, like these specialties are going to still be there.

But I think that we're seeing that in cinematography, though. I mean, I'm going back to kind of, I'm somebody that I'm noticing it's trend, and it's been a trend for a bit where we're just, we're seeing the camera. and lighting and particular lenses sometimes that are just because we we as cinematographers feel like we need to stand out um sure you mean like uh constantly using like the mini plus cook s4 combo or like yeah or like probe lenses it just constantly you know the probe gag or just like the camera's always moving or the camera's doing gag tricks and especially coming from more of a narrative background like when i'm seeing these kind of tricks implemented in narrative

I mean, if it's done appropriately to tell the story, it's great. But it's kind of, I've noticed it more and more of like this metaness where the cinematography almost sometimes overtakes the story nowadays just because we just have so many tools. We have so many tools that are just being implemented. And sometimes they're not to service the story. They're just to be cool. Well, and I don't know why, but it kind of reminds me yesterday we were watching the Dodgers game. And my buddy, you know, they kept seeing how.

they're like showy otani has kind of a he'll chase anything and he has kind of a blind spot in his upper inside and it used to be that as a pitcher you would have to learn that and now we have analytics like crazy that just you know the next day

you'll some computers spit out every pitch you should throw and where to throw it to make sure he doesn't hit right yeah and my buddy was like that's kind of made baseball boring recently because everything is optimized and just the existence of umpires means that baseball is not an optimized game that's kind of the point and uh i feel kind of the same to your point about cinematography you know getting too flashly it's like we know that this combination looks good and makes clients happy so we're just going to hammer that button because we've seen enough of it whereas before you might

have to um you know make mistakes there's just no room to make mistakes and i think that's point earlier. It's like the film industry is so risk averse I mean the whole at least in America we're just so risk averse right now for multiple reasons that the fun of creativity is kind of tamped down because it needs to be a winner every time

and that can come down to cinematography where it's like oh you know what would be cool is what if we shoot this on film? They're like no no no that's expensive and what if it breaks or something like that I don't know. Oh yeah no the amount of times that I mean I own an SR too. So any opportunity I can get to shoot on film, I will. But yeah, it's a scary proposition. The further and further we get into this digital world to shoot on film because, I mean,

God forbid we do rehearsals. I mean, God forbid we do blocking, which I think is beyond just shooting the rehearsal. I think the lack of proper blocking nowadays is probably the biggest detriment to cinematography today because then cinematographers going back to that idea we're making up for it in flashy shots we're making up for it in special lenses where if you especially in the narrative this is a little different obviously for commercials music videos things like that but like when you give the time for the actors to perform in authentic and worked out performance and you find exactly where the camera's meant to be for that said performance it's just going to feel so much more cohesive than a really beautiful 50-50 wide master and then

some really beautiful close-ups. And I'm guilty of doing it too. So I don't want to say like I'm above it, but because I get it for time's sake. But there is something that working through a scene on the day is so special. And I think digital's really cut us from that, sadly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we got a little bastard, but yeah, I mean, in my head, it's like digital is just one nail in that coffin where it's, you know, budgets are constrained or you're spending money in weird spots that, you know, like you were your point about five to $10 million films.

Now it would be like $8 million is going to go to one star and then that's too much for everyone else. So there's just no time. But you can tell when you watch, I just saw that like the other day me and my girlfriend were watching. something. And I was like, I can tell they didn't rehearse this. This is take two. And then they moved on. This person does not believe the words that they're saying. They're just saying them. And it's so frustrating. I wish I didn't know as much about filmmaking as I do. Because then maybe I could just be like, oh, interesting. But instead I can see the actor going, I just read my sides 10 minutes ago. You see it a lot in like episodic TV today, which I mean, I get to a

point. They're on the tight shooting schedule. Yep. They're like, um, I'm watching with my girlfriend Citadel right now. Oh, sure, sure. Gorgeous show, but I even noticed it in fallout earlier this year. Just like gorgeous show, but still, there's a lot of their shots are 50-50 master or wide master and 50-50 close up because they still got to pump out the scenes. And so how do they make up for it to make it feel interesting? We start, I don't know, framing for some reason, you know, short-sighting or even if it doesn't

necessarily fit to the story because it has to feel different. It has to have a punch. Like we feel like we have to justify our shot. I mean, I think the beauty is like really well done cinematography is it just blends with the story. Well, and that's the whole thing that I think is the hardest. Like part of my job is education to a degree writing for Pro Video Coalition and stuff like that.

And I find. that the one thing that even on like Reddit or whatever that students or people starting out keep asking once they get past all the technical jargon is like how do I learn composition and they don't know to ask that they ask things that sound you know that rhyme with it if you know what you're looking for basically if that makes me sense and um it's the one thing you can't teach because the second you get a book what's this thing called master shots you know that yeah yeah i literally can see them up on myself right here. Yeah, I've got volume one and two. Yeah, me too. And it's like you go through it once and you go, okay, got it. Because it doesn't teach you, it doesn't. It's good to know those exist, but it's not like teaching you the language necessarily. It's teaching you the words, but not the language, you know. And I've found more and more. It's like good composition. Once you get past those books is way more about feeling. I've said it a million times. I got to make a t-shirt that says technically correct is the, you know, or whatever, emotionally. correct is better than technically correct.

And that might involve, you know what happened the other day? I was shooting an ad and we went to, uh, there's a scene where a part of the scene where this guy walks into an RV and it's like there's a bunch of blue smoke coming out of it. This is cool thing. And we set up the tripod and we hadn't locked down the head so that it just went Dutch. And me and the camera operator stopped and we just went lock it there. It was, it just looked way more interesting. Yeah.

Dutched over hell of hard. And we were just like, and then we put it back. straight to like actually get the shot and we're like no no no back back to touch which technically is wrong but it's but it fit the but it fit the moment thing yeah yeah and it was accident well i mean happy accidents are great i've actually so one of my good friends you've actually interviewed him nick ramsie uh we went to chat yeah nick and i went to chatman together and we worked together all the time um helping out each other and just a great town i went to dude but uh i i forgot i lost my train of thought of where i was going with that uh dutch angeles tripod

happy accident rb oh yeah it's it's been one of those days i have two cups of coffee and yeah but i didn't i'm i'm the opposite i haven't had any caffeine yet and it's getting late yeah yeah yeah yeah no it's it's it's interesting how um or how man i i just had it and i had it didn't have it in Anyway, well, shout out to Nicky. Yeah, shout out to Nick either way. Yeah, he's, you know, it's funny is he's, good bud. He shot this music video for a chick named Scout. She has a band called Blow Pony.

And she, when I wasn't working, I had to find hobbies. You know, she's tough to do this past year. So it was like, started working out. My sister gets floated a lot of, like, beauty products, but sometimes she'll get sent like colognes and she's not. They're not for her. You know, fragrance is for everyone I've learned. I still, I believed it before I learned it.

But I agree that like, you know, there's no masculine, feminine. Fuck all that. You know, just wear whatever you want. But it's not her sense. So she'll give them to me. So I got into like fragrances and shit and baseball. But the fragrance thing, I guess Scout is like huge on TikTok for being like a perfume person. And so I bought her little sampler pack.

And then on the, and then I made like a video on TikTok about it. And I was like, shout out to Scout. My friend Nick shot a music video. For, and then she goes on my account. She's like, holy shit, I know, shout out to Nick. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, he's everywhere. He hustles.

I remember what I was going to say. With us going to Chapman together, we were, we are, the two of our professors were Bill Bill Dill, ASC, who has hopped around with, you know, AFI and a lot of people as well. Bill is awesome. Bill's a very analytical, very technical. And then our other professor that really inspired me and Nick in particular. filler and especially me is Johnny Jensen ASC. So Johnny, Johnny was similar, but he also came from the emotional standpoint where he was

like, you got to feel it in your gut. Where that camera moves, where that framing is, as we were saying earlier, like, it has to be you. It has to be your voice. And so you, but I think that takes time. I think like early filmmakers when they're first starting out, they're just going to replicate what they like. and there's nothing wrong with that.

But over time, your voice will be found. Yeah, I mean, when I first started out and learning composition, like you were saying, I would go to, like, I was attending Chapman. And every time I'd get out of class, when I came home at night, I'd make dinner. And then I would watch a film from a cinematographer I liked, especially like when I'm first starting out, like Roger Deacons. And you would see what he would do for a close-up or what he would do for a wide or a medium or a master. And then Chapman had given us a DVD of the students from last year and their

cinematography films that were like the interesting. The best of the year. And so what I would do is like I'd have one on my laptop, one on my TV and I'd freeze frame them and I'd just see what's the differences between like one of the masters and what students are doing in terms of framing for a close up. Where's the eye line? How dismissive is it? Like is the master moving or is it just on sticks on a wide that's just kind of fell off the truck and what's the purpose between a really good master that's telling a story versus one that's just there just to show the environment and so that was my way of really kind of learning how to hopefully improve my composition but I mean at the end of the day it's it's all about like you you got to grow into it you got to know what you like

and um sometimes I mean if you're an operator and it's you're not being the DP on something you have to conform your operating to what the DP or the director wants which can be an adjustment if you're kind of used to a certain way but um yeah it's it's it's your voice and it takes time it takes time to develop yeah do you remember any of those uh lessons that like you learn comparing student films to you know feature films well the biggest thing for me and it's something i like to do in my framing i'm very aware of is I like to be almost center, but slightly just off the crossair. So for like a close-up.

So I typically, when I'm framing a close-up, I go right off the cross-airs and then probably match to the cheekbone of the subject, depending on the size of the frame, but in the aspect ratio. But the biggest thing in terms of, I'll just stick to close-ups. The biggest thing I noticed was just the eye line. like the masters and you know working professionals that spent that extra time on set they didn't just throw the camera up and say all right this is the close up they took the time to cheat the eye line if they needed to to bring it closer to the lens and find exactly the place where

it's going to be the most emotional impact and where you see with student films you know it's maybe it's a nice close up but it's it's either just a little dismissive or the eye line's a little off and you're just not connecting with it in the same necessarily way as the masters are doing it. But yeah, that was something I kind of grew into, and it was always fun. It wasn't perfect, but it helped me hopefully move past the student side of framing as fast as possible because I knew what they were doing and I wanted to try to do above that, if that makes sense. Yeah. Well, and I think it kind of goes back to your point about blocking. Like the happy medium is you should obviously block and rehearse everything,

but then at a certain point you have to ditch some of it to get the shot correct. And I think as students, you plant, if you do any blocking, they're going to stay there. And now you're fighting. How do we get the camera there? It's just take a few steps back. No one, you don't have to be up against the wall or whatever. You know, if no one's going to see the table they're at, you can ditch it. Have them sit on an Applebox. No one cares. Oh, exactly.

Yeah, I was doing some. I did a short last year where we literally, yeah, it was, there's one of the scenes was two characters talking on a table for a long variation of time. And we wanted to get tighter as the conversation progressed, but also with our language, we were predominantly living in the like 18 to 35 millimeter focal lengths. And so with that, that means, you know, you're only going to move the camera. so much closer, but you kind of got to clear out the table. And it doesn't matter. Like, you can make these cheats to serve the story and the impact of what that frame's supposed to tell

to the best of your ability. But you got to be aware. I mean, you've got to be really in tune with the story. I think that's another thing, especially for filmmakers and cinematographers for starting out, is be really in tune with the way you want to tell a story. Read scripts. Go to art. museums, learn how to tell a story, learn how to tell your own story. Because being in tune with that, your framing is automatically going to be elevated to find the best frame to tell that story. If you're always thinking from a story-centric standpoint, that also means like in terms of my opinion, like everybody's different.

That's the beauty of what this art is like everybody has like different styles and different ways to look at telling the story. But for me, like, there's reasons why directors sometimes use that take where there's a buzz or the framing slightly all. It's something I think of the performance. That man just, absolutely. Nothing. There's no continuity.

Yeah. I mean, when I first started out, and especially in film school, in the first couple of years out, like, I know, when, you know, there'd be a buzz. You're like, oh, man, just, ah, it's, and then you take that step back and you realize, like, oh, wait, no. That actually felt really good. Like, there was something in that bump of the camera or that move of the camera that maybe wasn't perfect, but organically, it felt right.

If you trust the director, I mean, you know, you have to trust your leader into telling their story and knowing what's the best thing to tell the story. But yeah, I, it's why, like, obviously on set on the day, you want to try to be as perfect as you can, but there's also going back to happy accidents, sometimes those mistakes are actually a good mistake. It makes what you're doing feel more authentic, depending on the subject matter. Yeah, it reminds me of a, I've interviewed a few of David Fincher's DPs, and it does, from what I gather, he wants everything to be technically precise and super efficient so that the actors can have enough room to not be.

In other words, all the mechanics, you know, the camera, that all this needs to happen flawlessly. But the actors, the reason he does like a bunch of takes sometimes is to get something that is a happy accident that you couldn't fake. And so that that feels immediately real. I remember the, I think I've said this before, But the woman who plays Ben Affleck's sister in Gone Girl, she's in the bar. And at one point she grabs the phone and she like bobbles the phone before she grabs it.

And she gave up on the take and apparently Fincher was just like, no, that was the, that's what I wanted. You know, not that he's always looking for actors to start making mistakes, but just like an example of when reality takes over and makes it feel real. Absolutely. I mean, that's that's sometimes the best takes. but you have to be aware of it. If you're always going for the technical perfect beyond just the perfect composition and shop at the acting and having to hit these specific beats,

I mean, sometimes you need to do that. Again, everything varies project to project, but it goes back to why blocking is so important because you in rehearsals and multiple takes if you have the time. I mean, it gives everyone a chance to kind of feel things. out and make it finesse something um i even even when it comes to like short films where we're like or films where i'm shooting on like a dolly that that's pretty precise but even then you want to

have some wiggle rooms like maybe put a rotating head offset on it so you can make that wiggle room right before add a little bit extra move have a two footer set a track on the truck at all times they're sitting by the dolly at all times in case you you want to move in or pull out a little bit more, just that every little bit. It's just those, but you don't, if you don't have that time,

it'll just be good enough and you move on. Yeah. So, yeah, I think blocking is always paramount. I mean, not for every scene. Some scenes don't need it,

but as much of it. But on it also, to your point about like dollies, that's where I, I'm, I've really enjoyed that aspect of technology where it's like, You used to have to be just, you know, it would take, it would take everyone an hour and a half to level off the track perfectly.

Now you can get pretty close and then just stabilize it and post. You know, that's one of those fix it and post things that, you know, is tried and true. Flags and saves us a shit time. Yeah. Oh, yeah. In resolve, I'm constantly like, could have put a flag there, didn't take it down. No one will notice. Yeah.

I mean, it's why in particular, like in pre-product. Yeah, no, not so much. But like, it's why I'm very particular in pre-production about knowing what's our budget for the post in terms of like, are we going to be able to use one of the colors I have? Are we going with somebody else? Like, who is coloring this film? Because I need to know I can communicate with them that, hey, I need a power window because that floor is screaming. And on the day, I factored in adding an extra 5, 10 minutes to get a 6x by solid up or just. something that can be fixed in 30 seconds in a grade and giving that director and the talent

an opportunity to do maybe one or two more takes or maybe we need a few more rehearsals to execute a dolly pull out with the focus with the speed and I'd rather focus on that than all these other elements so you but if you don't have that in your back pocket and I this has happened to me before where those things that you you anticipate being able to fix in post you weren't able to because somebody else had a different intention so you got you got to be you know aware of that as well but it's it's that balancing act of knowing what is valuable for the time and what what is needed on set yeah it's I'm I'm lucky enough that a lot of times most of the time I'm able to go

tell the director I mostly because I work on pretty low budgets but like hey I can color this too and then I get to fix all my own mistakes or you know if I know I'm the colorist then I like just as you said like I can go all right fuck the flag I'll bring that down later that's not going to be an issue and I have the but it's I should warn anyone who's just getting started doing this don't assume you can do it oh yeah practice it you know yeah yeah yeah if you think it's too hot you know you need to know your exposure range you need to know just just because it doesn't say it's clipping um it doesn't mean that's necessarily depends

on the camera you're shooting on necessarily something you can be fine oh yeah I I love shooting on this 35 whenever I can I mean dude I what kind of fucking fairy magic did they put in that thing it's got like 12 stops it's it's awesome I mean I shot it I did the first time I worked with the 35 I had I was it was on a music video with um ectochrome and some 72 19 and a bunch of other super 16 stocks and And it was a lot of fun to kind of, you know, just do a few quick shots of just seeing comparably the highlight latitude between the two. I still think film has, you know, a little bit more of a natural roll off.

It always will be just being analog like that. But it's pretty damn close. And the color rendition is like that, I mean, above all else, I think that's my favorite part of it. Now, I get in trouble with some of my colors because I like adding the texture. that the 35 has. Oh, the built-in, like, film range and shit. I'm one of the few people who actually likes it.

But maybe it's just because, like, I want, if that's what I would like the image to be, or I'd like to work, I'd like to shoot with the production lot as well, like something that we hopefully designed pre-production or something that was created for me before the shoot that I know to shoot to that. So when it gets to editorial, there's no surprises or they're not throwing on a regular 702 lutt and the director and the editor and the producers fall in love with that look. And then it's a struggle to bring them back to maybe what was the baseline on the shoot. And so all of a sudden, your shadows are a lot higher or maybe those windows are a little bit more blown out or the skin tones aren't as rich. And it's something you may or not be able to fight.

to get back. And so I try to control as much of the image as I can on the shoot within, you know, the parameters of like maybe a flag and things like that. But when it comes to like color, the white balance, the textures, the,

the grittiness that I typically like to do. I like to shoot typically like a stop and a half under depending on the project. Which works on. Those are, yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's why I prefer to shoot on Alexa

Because I love to shoot under Even on film though Like well On film I'm typically actually the opposite I take that back I'm more about a stop and half over Especially if it's like But

Can I like that's like that too You gotta be like either at key Or a little over Yeah Yeah it's uh I Well the new ones actually I just shot with that C80 Oh yeah

I think that it's they're not out They let me keep one for like a month It was great I'll send you the shit I shot like It looks Oh, yeah, I love that sensor. Like, I have a C-500. That looks awesome.

C-70. Great tool. I think the 500 looks better. I think I've become a full-frame guy. I wish I wasn't, but I think I am. There is something about it. Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, again, it's just like everything else.

It's the tool for the job. I'm prepping an indie feature right now at the start in January, where we're debating using the Ronin 4D, which. I mean, I've used it for doc work, but I haven't done it for on a narrative scale before. Do you see Civil War? I did. Yeah, I know they used it for

a bit of sequences in that. I know they used like the Venice 2 as well. So for like most of the dialogue and then the action stuff was with the 4D. But yeah, we did a camera test with it. We shot with some like like an R glass just to kind of feel it out.

That's one of the issues with full frame is like, you know, especially on a camera like bad you can you only can use very small lenses on that gimbal system so that was um that was a fun test um and i mean if this sounds terrible but with the the ability in the di nowadays especially for this film which is mostly black and white we're more about making sure we retain color as weird as that says that sounds like in black and white we want to have good color rendition um for manipulating in black and So we have a gradient of shades. Well, and I think that's the main reason why I like full frame.

It has nothing to do with like depth of field or whatever. It's all about the fact that the tonality of a larger sensor, not necessarily full frame and not any manufacturer, but a larger imaging plane gives you smoother tonality between anything, you know, noise is going to be, especially on film. Film is the obvious, like the bigger it gets the nicer it looks. But I think digital sensors have come to a point where that mantra, still holds, where the larger the sensor generally, yeah, those tones are, but have you looked at the, there's got to be one floating around near us, the red monochrome? I have, we did talk about that. It's also the movement of the 4D is one thing that, based

off like physically the movement of it. Yeah, just the ability, the story without getting too deep into it there's there's a kind of a supernatural or ghost element and our uh the director really kind of likes the idea of maybe utilizing that as a floating or constantly moving

in the space um idea i mean we we we also could do something with like you know the Venice and build it out build it out to just the head and again expensive exactly and so it's it's a bit too expensive for like a indie feature that

I'd rather give us more days and let us get it right or get the crew I want or get the other necessities that the production needs then yeah use that but yeah it's we've been experimenting we're still trying to figure that the monochrome would be an interesting

choice I don't know any other manufacturers to make that but the cool thing obviously is that because they've taken away the Bayer pattern or whatever that goes from like a 4k sensor to like a 20k sensor yeah yeah i remember seeing like music videos every time like red used to introduce the new monochromes um yeah the just and i think suit and tie was shot on a monochrome yes i i think that one we we i think everybody saw that man i it's great song too but oh yeah yeah yeah i i loved i loved

the ingenuity when red was doing stuff like that like uh i i i hope they get back to it. I think I was just talking to someone about this last night. I think Nikon buying red is a net positive for both companies. And I think it'll finally allow, because red, I mean, the fact that they only sold for like 80 million is crazy. Because I guess they just had to buy out Jim Jannard and be like, hey, like he floated them over the pandemic, I guess. And so they were, this is all hearsay. I don't actually know if this is true. This is just weird. But, and so they like you just got to buy them out and Nikon obviously had the money but I think

Nikon's always made incredible lenses obviously incredible now especially their mirror list offerings are incredible the Z8 is like great there's actually speaking of Sony and I was just reading something about someone brought up the creator again and the FX3 but there's actually Z8 footage in there because

Gareth Edwards took his Z8 and shot test footage out wherever and it was good enough that they just put it in the movie. That's awesome. And so I so they're already there, you know, but I think giving red the money they need to not only innovate, but not have to come out with something new every 10 seconds. I mean, the Nikon D850, which came out in like 2012 is still seen on sidelines at sporting

nuts. You know, it's still a crazy good camera. And I think that's kind of. The mirror is being still used for like NFL films and stuff like that. I mean, and that's that's the original one, like the 2K one. some yeah yeah like they they still got a few of those I talked to a few of the guys than that and I but it's going back to Bill Dill I mean he always used to tell us something of like do you want better more pixels or do you want better pixels right and I think we're

at that stage where like I mean you know we'll always be on the climb up for more more and more but I think we're at the stage where we're looking for better pixels we're looking for that color rendition that that that detail that that ability to fill the bucket, so to speak, and give us as much information in post to, if we want to add that grain. I mean, look at how many digital films today are using live grain and things like that that just, you still can kind of tell, but it's getting close. The happy accidents of film are still there, but yeah, it's, I spent a lot of time.

Yeah, I spent a lot of. I spent a lot of time in Resolve trying to design a compound node that accurately emulates film texture in the sense that the thing I think a lot of people miss on the lower end. Obviously, live grain is like incredible. But, um, and then DeHanser's, I like DeHanser's algorithm, but it, it'll, it'll bog down most camera, uh, computers. So I just can't. Um, the color on DeHancer, whatever, but the film looks really good. The film grain looks really good. But one thing I've noticed is that on film, and I'm sure you've seen this, it's not that film is soft, but high frequency detail isn't resolved very well, unless you get a big ice, you know, IMAX or whatever.

So I had to, I found out a way to go in and just blur high frequency detail and pass that through so that the grain, it like, it kind of like sticks. And then you blur it and then sharpen it all at the end. So it. Oh, interesting. Glues it all together. I'm doing a terrible job of explaining. this because I don't know what I know what I know what you're describing though I mean it's I it's and also the other just the film in the shadows mids and highs you know separate very

just yeah that's that's a big one where you notice it I mean it's I think for like if you're doing like a short film or something like that like just throwing on a stock film grade especially when it's like you don't know if it's getting into specific festivals is fine right but yeah it's it to emulate it properly it's It's a very, very time-consuming effort. But, you know, it's, I, I love adding grain to anything I can if it, as long as it fits. I love trying to soften things up, but more not like through filtration or I didn't use vintage glass, but thank God.

Fallen out of 11 filtration. Yeah, I think, I think a lot of us had that like black pro mist era. No, everyone, not a lot of us, all of us. Well, it was like, everybody was like, it's the secret sauce. And then I'm glad we've moved away from that. I still do use filtration, but it's kind of more like color filtration. I love using like antique suede. I will put in like an eighth antique suede into something.

And knowing that it's going to be on the warmer side and having a lot that kind of purposely counters it to give nice rich skin tones a little bit darker kind of grungy shadows but also giving us some nice color balance um i was doing that with my x 100 i'd put a a warming filter on and then counteract it's the same exact thing you get cool shadows and warm highlights automatically exactly and it's it's uh it's yeah i i think i think that's where we should be experimenting is like these these filtration devices are still around tobacco and all these other things it's a little harder sometimes for them to be as impactful on digital just because I feel like they like you you put it on a film stock and it'll give you the effect you're going for and it's

good you put it on digital and it's like bam it's it's sometimes a little too much so you've got to be really subtle with it but yeah it's one thing I like to do to play around that's probably the only filtration I really ever use Pearl Essence sometimes, but I like a pearl lesson. I do enjoy a glimmer glass. Honestly, for the longest time when I was using cheaper cameras, I would use contrast filters just to like roll off

and keep things from clipping or like a white pro mist is solid for that. See, but that was the thing is I found that the promists worked for that specific purpose were too bloomy a lot of times. Whereas like Digi would still give you some

halation a little bit, but it would just keep you from clipping or crushing. Someone asked this on Reddit like two days ago. It's not actually giving you any more dynamic range, but it gives you the appearance of more dynamic range because you don't see a clipping point. I found that. It's not just going to value.

But nowadays, I've given them a bunch of shoutouts, but there's this plug in for resolve called scatter. It's a filtration emulation, and it's excellent. And so I'll just shoot clean, usually with vintage. I like my nichors. I got these little Niagara lines. I'd be like, yeah.

But yeah, and then I'll just go in and then, you know, you can pick your filtration, pick your focal length, pick your, what do you call it, intensity. And then just A, B, it stuff. And then the nice thing about it being a plug-in is you can art direct where it go, you know, so if you're backlit, you can make, you know, window it off and then make that one less strong than the one on the face or whatever you need to do to keep it from getting too crazy, you know?

Wow. Wow. It's a nice little twit. You said scatter? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'll have to turn me onto it. He used it on the killer.

Yeah, I'll have to check it around. That would make sense. Yeah. Yeah. Because he shot pretty clune for that, but then he added a little bit in post. It looked like. Yeah. I believe, I think all of it potentially, but specifically for the Havana scenes.

Where they wanted it to look like muggy. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, that's, that's where using effects or using, you know, these tools to service the story or push the story is a perfect example of where, when and where to use it. Not just because it looks cool or it's a good look, but like, what is it helping to enhance the storytelling that you're trying to achieve? Right. But then the opposite of that is like music videos. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. When you're doing music videos, it's like cool. Yeah. Yeah. Music videos are. cool you push for that and um it's uh i always enjoy doing i don't do too many but i always enjoy

doing music videos because it is a time for me to kind of break out of what i'm used to doing with narrative um no i still love narrative the most um right it's it's still the thing that gets me sometimes maybe too passionate but well it is it is hard to like i went from a documentary to an ad to a different documentary to a music video and I by the time I was shooting the second one

the second documentary I was like my brain was absolutely scrambled and then by the time I got to the music video I was thinking too hard I was like because I was in narrative brain and I was like no no no just like have fun don't don't

it's it's wild that you have it's the same job but it absolutely isn't your compositions your framing could be drastically different And I mean, there may be the idea of short-sighting a shot just for the sake of a cool look or a powerful look is justified, whereas maybe just doing that on a narrative, it's like, okay, cool, but like, why are you doing that? Right. Does that really service the story in that moment? Maybe it does.

But I think that's the biggest difference between like commercial work and the music videos and then going into narrative, which you're seeing a lot of DPs coming from more of a music video commercial back. ground into narrative. And I think that's why we're getting, in some ways, like really cool, interesting looks that you didn't typically see in narrative. And I love that aspect of it. The part that I always, that's a bit of a struggle for me is sometimes it feels, again, like the cinematography can take over a scene or take over a plot point. And I think as a, for me personally, as cinematographer you never you never wanted to be outshining the scene you it's uh it's okay to supplement air like work with it but you never want out shining yeah yeah it's like uh you know having a solo in a song where it's not supposed to be yeah yeah yeah no i mean it's really look at me

yeah it's uh but again going back to like modern day cinematography politics i i get it like i mean I mean, you see TV shows that honestly probably shouldn't be looking like that, looking really, really slick. And it's like, and sometimes, like, I think it's just because we all are trying to make our imprint. Well, and on top of that, it used to be, now granted, I didn't work during the time I'm about to basically pull out of my ass. But it does feel like it used to be, you know, you'd get hired off of, obviously, you're like relationships and stuff like that. It was kind of like a, they do good work. They're good to work with, blah, blah, blah. Now you have to have an Instagram, right?

You got to. So I think there's people who I'm certainly noticing that I need to do this because I don't because I'm one of those idiots who's like, no, people would just like me for me. You got to advertise. I think like the fact that we now have to advertise ourselves as DPs is frustrating because as you're saying, you don't want to stand out for the film, but you need to stand out to get the next job. Yeah, and that's very difficult being on just shooting your own, you know, some stuff for yourself that looks really cool that you can put up there. Yeah, and I mean, that's why I'm very blessed that the narrative projects I do, they're all pretty much reoccurring directors or directors that have been referred to me through a mutual friend. And so that trust is there. The trust of not doing something just for the sake of the real or cool shot is.

It's, okay, this is to serve the story. This is what's needed in that moment. I don't need to, you know, have a huge lighting rig or camera movement for this scene. That's just, you know, it's five eighths of a page. And it's quick. And we, like, we need to get in, get out and shoot the shots that best serve the story. So on the other side of that, why do a 10 minute oneer? Yeah, right?

Um, I mean, it's, so that was already pre-developed by our director Mo. Um, when, so when I originally came into the shoot, I hopped on, funny enough, through it, where Instagram was really helpful. Um, it was about a week and a half before principal photography. And the original main unit DP, uh, his name's Alejandro Chavez, extremely talented DP. Um, we had, liked each other over Instagram. We had never met, but he hit me up, slid into my DMs and was like, hey, I got a feature shooting in about a week and a half. You want to come on and be my second unit DPMOP on main unit. And I was like, yeah, hell, I really admired its work.

And I got in there. And on the first day of prep, I met Mo. And immediately, they were talking about the 10-minute oneer chase sequence. and it was funny because we literally did hit the ground running because those were our first days at the shoot were. Yeah. Yeah. So there was a lot of growing pains, obviously, like, you know, the Terodec arrays

like covering blocks of the fashion district. And also Terradek got their hold on this industry. They're so unreliable. They are not as ideal as they could be. I mean, this is, when we shot these scenes, it was at the end of 2018, too. So the array were not quite as on oh there's certainly gotten better yeah but yeah yeah but we we had multiple spread out and even then it was a challenge for our focus pullers because you're going in and out of buildings um but yeah I mean Mo had already pretty much

spent out quite a while pre-shooting almost the entire film on his iPhone and it didn't necessarily you know it's not a hundred percent picture for pictures like as a storyboard kind of yeah it's like a beautiful templates animatic yeah in a way it's a blueprint of knowing especially for a chase sequence where i mean in those 10ish minutes there's probably almost a dozen or seven or eight cuts um and so having to plan out each wipe each um transition point each whit pan the timing of the whitpants to capture that beat but quickly do a 180 and continue running to follow the lead all that was predetermined by mo now it took time though to transition that from shooting on an iPhone and the you know the freedom of an iPhone to an Alexa mini with

master primes um even with a really stripped down kit you it was a workout i was i was second unit on a film a few years ago and we had the big ass like the long Atlas Anamorphics like the Orion's but they weren't the shorties they were like and I was just and the same thing with a mini and all I had was like the cage and the handle and everything's

handheld and I was like I love Dan Cain's this lens is too heavy yeah yeah I mean it's and that was day one we got in there and Alejandro shows me how because I came from a background that's yeah and I came from a background when we operate handheld typically it's on my shoulder I was I was a swimmer growing up so I had pretty broad shoulders

and I I'm short too so low center gravity I still love opting off my shoulder but Alejandro was had just come off Roma with Corona and um he was cradle yeah and really encouraged me to do the same not only because we were jumping back and forth where he would do a take rest then I would do a take and we would be going back and forth um so you wanted to have that continuity but um it taught me a lot. It taught me a lot of operating that way. And to this day, I love, you know, mixing it up and sometimes doing that. We didn't have easy rigs. It was just all straight. Keep the camera package as tight as possible. That tear deck was bolted down. We used like the slimmest batteries we could. And, you know, streamlined package. I think we got rid of like some of the like cage support on the sides just to try to keep it as tiny as possible. And it was a good workout. It was, but there was something about it. It was a lot fun. I don't know why Ari didn't put a V-lock or gold mount, probably swappable, mount on the camera.

When you get those cages, usually, I guess it's the wooden camera, whoever makes the, like, no, it's Ari. Ari makes their own, but the, the battery sled is so far back. Oh, yeah, like that. The camera's this big, and then suddenly it's two feet long because of the cage and the battery. I think we had the TILTA one, so we were able to, like, kind of smush it up against. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But even then, I mean, that's, it's, it's, it's better.

But it, it, the biggest thing was when you did throw it on your shoulder, I was always having my ACs add weight to the back. So, uh, add a, add a 702 or like a, you know, what were, what were, what were those monitors used in the, the late? Odyssey 7 Q plus. Yeah, like the Odyssey is, the, was it the Marshalls? that is it March oh sure yeah yeah yeah i forget the brand ed logic on they or tv logic there we go it was tv logic you know they they they were thick guys they were and so i we would

sometimes just throw those with a noga arm with a gold mount or something on the back just to give me the balance with the master primes when i was resting it on my shoulder so it was a nice equilibrium um but uh yeah i mean it mo's blueprint was really helpful um he he he's Even with the interior, most of the film, he had already pre-shot. Now, that didn't mean that Mo was open to conversation. He wasn't open to new ideas. He was 100% open for that as long as it served the essence of what he was trying to tell in the story. But you very quickly understood what Mo did and didn't like.

Yeah. I think that's honestly one of the harder things for D.P. starting out to realize is like you are not the protagonist. You know, images are so prevalent in our society now with everything, you know, social media and just you, anything, the visual media is everywhere. And as you being the person who makes it, I should be in charge. It's like, nope, you are a plumber. And then your director is the client. Exactly.

I mean, it's a collaboration, hopefully at best. But that was the biggest challenge for me when I transitioned to the main unit DP because we came back to do reshoots. Right, because you guys shot it. You started in 2018 and then big-ass COVID break and then came back in whatever. Yeah, most of the film had been shot, but we came back and, yeah, 21, late 20, maybe my dates are the further away it gets. It was a, you know, it was a journey to get this film released, but by that point, yeah, Mo asked me to come back and take over main unit. And that's always a challenge within itself is because you want to be as consistent to the look that's already been established. Luckily, I was on for a large portion of the main unit before that.

So I already knew kind of the lighting, the ethics of like, or the style of what we were trying to go with. But with time comes like new outlooks on how to tell a story. And so that was something to balance with Mo is obviously servicing the continuity of the look that was already established and what we shot, but also being open to the new ideas that at the end of the day is still your boss, Mo, wanting to try out. And so you just walk that tightrope. But at the end of the day, I think it turned out well.

But it was definitely probably one of the artists moments of the production was walking that tightrope of being, respecting Alejandro's work on the film while also doing the changes that Moe was seeking. Yeah. And then you also, didn't you have like a, like a massive like SWAT raid sequence that you had? Oh, man. That was that was so much fun. We had like 30, 40 extras all in either police uniforms, SWAT gear, different personnel, all head to toe. We had a full on, like, armored SWAT vehicle, four or five police chase vehicles. It was crazy because like obviously we were prepping it during the day. We had like the cars on the road and we're like the little toy cars and we're like,

okay, so this cop car is going to go here and it's going to move in faster. You've got to push in and we had to time that. I was the one operating that specific shot and it had to be done safely, but we wanted the camera moving in at the same time as the police car is moving in and stopping. And I continually move in up into the cop getting out of the car and running. out of the shot. Running out a car that's moving

towards you can be, it has to be precise. And so there was, especially when it's, you know, once we got past the daytime and it's at night. Got to wear you put on the hands on that day. Oh man. It was, yeah, we were, we were, yeah, it was, it was a rush of a gerillon, um, but it was a lot of fun too

because so much to logistically try to capture. And then I mean, obviously in the entire sequence of the film, it's interplaying between what's happening on the exterior of the rate, which we shot in Los Angeles, the exteriors in Los Angeles. And then the interiors were shot in Mexico City. That seems backwards.

Oh, no, I guess it's set. I guess it's set and. Yeah. Well, yeah, all the interior was, the whole house was, the interiors of the house, that house was a practical location in Mexico City that Mo had pretty much found and then really kind of envisioned it with the art. direction. So all those walls and the details, the burnt walls and the texture, that was all

mo. I mean, he really saw the project and the film in his head and made sure to communicate how it was supposed to look, sometimes getting his hands in and literally just shaping it himself because he just, he saw it. But and then when we came back, like shooting green screen based off of plates to add more characters into the raid scene. And so it was a lot to like like try to merge together from three to four separate locations over a span of like three years right with slightly different lighting and color and to bring it all into the di and match it luckily our color is oiven he was fantastic i mean we spent a lot of time on those scenes um making sure the rotos and everything were right but um yeah it's i i mean it had to be right it's the culmination

of like the climax of the film you had to if there was like a weird roto move or the colors fell off or one clip, it takes the audience out of it in such an intense moment. So that was something we really put a lot of effort and time into making sure it was just right. It's so annoying how one GoPro shot or whatever immediately makes people think like every film is held to the standard of its worst shot by the audience. Yeah, yeah. I mean, again, it goes for the cinematography needs to kind of blend with what you're trying to tell narratively. I mean, obviously on a film like this, City of Dreams, there is a lot of movement, a lot of intensity. It has its idea of stylized, but it has a style to it.

But I mean, I'm speaking for myself here in the team, but I feel like it's still maintained. the what is it's trying to evoke in the story right and um it comes from a purpose and that's that's always what you got to do uh it but it can be hard it can be hard luckily most blueprint was really helpful in that regard um because sometimes when you were kind of lost you could resort to that to know well this is at least a template let's go from this and how do we enhance it to the now practical day location yeah and it's always so freeing to have uh the people in charge know exactly what they want even if like i don't agree with it i would rather they tell me exactly what they want than a lot of wishy-washy like oh i don't know just uh show me something like yeah yeah

sometimes i mean and there's sometimes that's okay too i mean i work with director some directors that are more actors directors where they i'm fine with that i mean when they don't even have like an idea they're just sitting there with their arms cross going what do you think and not and not like it for this one just all the time you know yeah yeah yeah no you definitely i would say most most of the time you want to have somebody that has a general vision for the film but also people that typically are flexible to the practicalities of a location and right what's available on the day i mean some happy accidents or maybe not happy but accidents happen and you kind of have to roll with the punches sometimes. I mean, we were blessed

on that chase sequence of like, it was like a four or five days of shooting that. And we were lucky that we shot it around this time of year in October. And luckily in LA at this time of year, it's foggy. It's cloudy for the first maybe, you know, six, seven hours of daylight. So that helped us maintain a continuity. But if we would have had hard shadows, I mean, that would have made our jobs a lot more tricky to intercut multiple days of a chase sequence that's supposed to be happening within, you know, a five, 10 minutes span. Yeah. You get lucky sometimes.

Yeah. I got to say the, the like 100 hour days whiplash into fog time, like with only a week in between has been jarring. Yeah. I keep thinking I'm like, oh my God, it's only four. And then I look at the clock. It's like 9.30. I'm like, what?

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's why you see more night film shot at this time of the year and more day film shot or things that are involving day exterior. There are a lot of daylight involved shooting in the summer, especially on the indie level because you want to maximize the time you have, either light or dark. I think when I first got in, I was always amazed with how many horror films were shot right around Halloween and Christmas and stuff like that. And I was like, is it just, you know, people are starting to get in the mood, like, is it the time of year? And it's like, no, it's the, they have almost 12 hours of darkness where they don't have to throw up solids or trash bags over the windows or like whatever else to black it out like or build tents. Like, they have that practically. But yeah, it's, I'm adjusting right now.

I don't know when the time changes. I assume it's coming up pretty soon. I have no idea. Dude, I lived in Arizona for like eight years. And that was, and I didn't love it. But moving back to L.A., I had forgotten that, because Arizona doesn't do time changes. And I got so used to it. And then I moved back here. And then one day I was like behind. And I was like, wait, hold on, hold on. Yeah, I, I, it always trips me up like right when we get near Christmas. And it's like 4.30 and it's just pit bull right. Yeah. It's, it's nice to. at the Christmas lights, but it trips me up.

It's like, should I be thinking about dinner at 4 o'clock in the afternoon? It's just a little too, a little too early. My whole life, I loved nighttime for whatever reason, just a night person. So when it would get, you know, when winter would roll around, I got excited probably also because like I lived in the Bay Area and winter in the Bay Area, you know, San Francisco, it's just like feels right, you know. But in the past couple years, I've definitely become the sun person now where I'm like, when we do get nighttime at 4.30, I'm like, back, fuck.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it used to make me excited, maybe because I just liked going out. It's easier to convince me, we should go out. It's five o'clock. Yeah, yeah, let's go. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's why summer in Illinois so much fun here, so many stuff to do.

But once it gets dark out, you notice, like, in the winter, like, less and less people are interested in that way going out at night. We're fickle people. Yeah. We're a fickle bunch. Yeah. Well, I've kept you a little over, but that hour fucking flew by. Oh, yeah, man.

I was having a blast. Well, hey, man, it was a pleasure. I really appreciate it. And hopefully I got some more stuff to chat about in the future. Absolutely. I look forward to it. Cool, man. Take care.

Peace. Thank you, brother. Frame and reference is an owlbot production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so on Patreon by going to frame and refpod.com, where you can get all the episodes and clicking the Patreon button. It's always appreciated, and as always, thanks for listening.