Frame & Reference Podcast - 167: "Rescue: Hi-Surf" DP Anka Malatynska

Episode Date: November 28, 2024

This week we're going deep with Anka Malatynska, DP of "Rescue: Hi-Surf" as well as shows like I Know What You Did Last Summer, Pretty Little Liars: Original Sin, NCIS: Hawaii, and Monsterland Happy Thanksgiving! Visit https://www.frameandrefpod.com for everything F&R https://www.patreon.com/frameandrefpod Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coast's leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠⁠Filmtools.com⁠⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello and welcome to this another episode of frame and reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and you're listening to episode 167 with Anka Malatinska, D.P. of Rescue, high surf. Enjoy. Yeah, the weird disdain for artists by way of either the general public or specifically tech people is fascinating to me because I agree. I think it is somewhere between a jealousy and a lot of the tech people work in a kind of like efficiency mindset and art is never efficient. And so they're trying to, you know, make, do that. I actually think it comes from miseducation and intense propaganda against art. I don't know where it comes from in American culture, but, you know, just comparing, you know, comparing the temperature and kind of the milieu of film of art in Europe, Europe is really invested in the arts because they understand that the stories we tell and the art that we create creates creates.

the culture that we live in. We've kind of, you know, this, this chase for just profit, profit, profit over everything, you know, in the United States has, I feel like, has really truncated our idea of what it is to be human and accessibility of humanity. It's like, you know, I don't know. It's like I do. I feel like sometimes right now America is like a snake eating its tail. because none of this behavior of, you know, replacing artists with AI,

automating everything for a bottom line. Like, these are like, you know, really short-term solutions for even the stockholders that in the end are going to destroy the stock itself. Quarterly profits have been destroyed. And I keep thinking it's like, again, I'm a giant nerd and I remember like when I grew up in the Bay Area, you know, in the 90s. So like I was there when the internet started in earnest, you know, and even as a child was like part in that, that early internet culture was very forward thinking and very community based.

And now it is almost exclusively profit driven. You know, there's an ad on everything. Prices go up all the time. There's no more like foreign culture, which was very. It's also like just a year ago, open, open AI was supposed to just be. open source AI. Right. And now the open AI is actually maximized for profit. And now I have to like join the platform and then I can join it to my Canva and I can join it to my Otter AI and I can like have a whole thing. And the disturbing thing is the disturbing thing is my son is in fifth grade

and they are using open AI as a tool for inspiration. And I'm sorry. Like you can bleep me out, but what, what the fuck? Oh, no, you can say the fuck word here. Like, what the actual fuck, you know, isn't the innate power of a human being that we can be inspired all the time, you know, unless we're like firing off too much cortisol and so stressed out and so in fear and so controlled, you know, it makes no sense to me what's happening in the U.S. and what we're doing. to our kids in schools and what we're doing to our industries. It is, you know, I mean, it is so

incredibly self-destructive. Well, and it's, you know, like the one thing I remember as a kid was, you know, you'd be, I'm terrible at math. I have what's called discalculia I've learned, which is, which is dyslexia with numbers. I just thought I was frustrated by math. But no, I physically couldn't, you know, you get the, but the biggest lie was, oh, you'll never have a calculator in your pocket. You have to learn this. And it's hilarious because now we have the sum of human knowledge in our pockets. It's way better than a calculator. But as I got older, I realized, yes, that's true. But if you don't understand the fundamentals of the mass, A, you either won't know how to use the calculator. You'll have to go to chat GPT and be like, do this problem and

explain it for me. Or you won't be able to do it just, you know, quickly. It's like, Like that baseline understanding is so important, and we've created tools that make it so easy to not have that. And it's like, because I 100% agree with you, but you can't tell kids, hey, there's this really easy way to get. Because even school has not been incentivized to teach baseline understanding, right? It's you're teaching to the test. You got the no child left behind situation. So it's like we don't, and I think that's the larger problem, at least in our country, is we don't, we incentivize results. and not like the base thing.

You know, it's like, did you get an A? Who cares? You know, it has nothing to do with whether or not you knew what you were doing. It's just, did you answer the prompt? You know, two plus two. Yeah, that's four great. Do you know why? No, not really.

I just know that that gets me. Well, that's where baseline, you know, that's where like that baseline learning, what it really does. It doesn't give answers. It teaches you how to think could teach if you cognize information. you know, which is the whole thing, like, why get a higher education? It's not even, you know, so much for the diploma or the job. It's to be able to think critically in many different ways

and to encounter people who think differently from you and to synthesize information. I mean, you know, I do. I feel like our industry has changed so much, you know, more and more as filmmakers it's going to demand from us. to be like, you know, like what happened to musicians. You got to have visibility. You got to have social media and community.

You got to advertise yourself and your own work. And then you've got to do your work. You know, and I do, I feel like in, maybe indirectly, but it is the higher level education that I got that allows me to like track these movements and be like, oh, okay, that'd be a really good idea. know, like let me, you know, have a social media presence because it is actually important to the longevity of my career right now, you know, and big people with huge careers. Actually, I was going to say, can poo-poo that. But honestly, most of the smart people aren't poo-pooing

that. Look at A.B. Renee, like, you know, her own advertising channel on Instagram. She's smart. She understands that it's also, like, it is. It's a business in the U.S. And to run a business, you either have to be really intelligent and a savant on your own. And that's not most people or you need a certain level of education or you're, you know, you're going to be usurped by the propaganda. You're not going to know what to do. You're not going to know what you're actually doing. It is, it is so frustrating to see, ooh, shiny toy take over. like the push no AI was a tool that people vaguely wanted it was only because as you were saying when we you know film and television sets the tone for what we do as a as a culture or at least it's a reflection of it the minimum and the idea of like I said earlier like Jetson's future so to speak Star Trek future was like cool and then we someone was like well we got AI and you're like that's close let's run with it and then it's like this is going to

to take over everything. I will say one thing that I've noticed is the AI stuff has refined, but kind of plateaued in that it is a perfect mediocrity. It is not exceptional. So far, everything I've seen from AI from chat GPT all the way to SOAR and everything is really good at hitting a 50% mark. So it will raise the baseline for a lot of people, which can be frustrating for people starting, but I have yet to see anything do something. Like chat GPT is wrong. It'll hallucinate all the time. You have to fact check it. It's not, but it can, you know, synthesize information. You know, if you give it a PDF and go like, what are the base note, you know, tell me what this says. I think nine times out of ten, it does a good job. I mean, I'll use it as an

editor. The other place where like, you know, AI really works is analyzing large swathes of data. Right. predicting future trends, you know. And I'm I'm actually, I am not a trader. I know very little about trading, but I installed a AI trading bot. It's kind of like what you said. Like, I don't calculate for, you know, and I'm just playing around.

I put $1,000 into a FXT, which is a gold. It trades gold. And it's an AI bot that trades gold. And it's fantastic. You know, in three days, my $1,000 has made, $16. It's not a huge return.

That's lunch. But there are no losses. Then you can kind of like make it, you know, you can play it really conservatively, which I have it on the most conservative settings because, yeah, I don't want it to lose money. But that's where like, you know, AI is like, I'm not going to learn a trade. But sure, if I can like keep $1,000 in an account and like grow it little by little, because the AI is trading because it's good at looking at those charts and it's good at analyzing those numbers.

So long story short, you know, maybe AI could actually replace the CEOs. So that's what I was saying earlier. Like CEOs don't tell anybody I said that. But, you know, jobs like that, well, there's two prongs of thought that I have. One, jobs like that are not innate in human nature as creativity is or creation is, right? So automating that stuff, I'm actually for. I'm not for taking people's jobs. However, CEOs, I think we can all agree, are generally overpaid in the higher end of things.

And they're not making good decisions. You know, I've been making good decisions in the industry for a number of years now. Right. They're a, you know, a mascot, essentially for their company. And what's funny, too, is with your trading bond analogy, is like, if everyone has that, I mean, the markets were invented anyway, right? That's not part of nature. We just decided to invent that silly game that we all play. But if AI takes it over, like, is that game now null and void? No one wants to watch a hockey game played by robots. You know, and if it's just like... That you can pre-program who's not going to do it. It's not going to it. Yeah. So it is like, as you were saying earlier, like a, a. short term. All of it is very short term. How do we, you know, what were, uh, uh, NFTs, you know, we, we were in the pandemic. People needed cash.

It's like, how can we fleece all these dummies to buy $100,000 JPEGs that quote unquote, you own? You know, that fizzled out. Everyone was like, this is the future. That died off immediately. A buddy, a buddy of mine became like a traitor of NFTs and I haven't talked to him in a long time, but I was, he was like, I can tell you how it all works and I can get you in there. And I was like, no, I know where this is going and it's going to die out. And I was off by like six months. You know, it is, it is a very strange. Well, it is.

It's like because we've programmed our society for just wanting profit. You know, we like blindly run from one thing to another. And I'm sorry, but it's not a way of creating a cohesive culture or. you know yeah it's really kind of nutty we're all like fried on too many likes and too many but we've been pushing and and it's it's nuts it's a little nuts i unfortunately do i don't blame social media as a thing but i i do remember vividly in like 2013 or something when uh you know we were all on Facebook in college and then all the like adults started showing it and I don't mean our parents I mean like politicians business people started going on Facebook and doing the whole like hello fellow kids and I was like this this I don't like this this feels like it's a grab and not like again it's like that that that um forum culture dying out there's a thing called like eternal September I believe it's called which was back in the early like pre forum era every September. a whole new group of college students would join

shit, whatever it was called right before forums were a thing, before like Web 1.0 or 2.0. But in any case, a whole new group of college students would join these message boards and ask the exact same beginner questions. And so the joke was, it was eventually the internet became Eternal September, which was, there was just this constant deluge of new people asking the same beginner questions instead of adhering to the culture that was created on these online message boards,

which incentivized, you know, a certain culture, but also if you don't know, search first, that kind of thing. And now it's gone past Eternal September and it's become eternal, you know, gaming the system. You know, what you got to do is you don't have a social media that advertise yourself. You have a social media to advertise moo milk substitute or whatever the fuck, you know, it's this is. Yeah, now you have a spaceless social media so you can market somebody else's. something, you know, with, it's like, what are, what are we, it's not even social anymore. It's just, what are we doing? Advertising. Um, and why does no one care anymore? Um, because we don't insert, we don't give people enough money to have time to care. They have to get the money.

You know, like once, once you can raise your base income or, uh, create all these tools to actually, uh, take the, in a perfect world, you know, you know, like, once, once you can raise your base income, or, uh, uh, create all these tools to actually take the in a perfect world you know you you automate the menial labor so that those people who were not forced to but who had to do those jobs or did do those jobs are freed up to then become in my opinion more creative that's the future that I would love to see you know the again the Star Trek idea of we have made it so that money is unnecessary because we've taken care of everyone's base needs which frees them up to do what is fulfilling as a human and not fulfilling for. But that would take a huge, you know, dose of mushrooms. Huge dose of

mushrooms, huge cultural shift, you know, because we do. We have this culture of death and apocalypse right now. The world's ending. Human beings are bad. We cause global warming and we're all terrible. We're termites on the face of the earth and we should just die. You know, you feed that idea to people for a while, and they're not going to want to do anything. They're just going to... You're seeing that in the young kids, like the 20 and unders. They're all very apoplectic and kind of... And to be, it's propaganda, you know, and I'm not saying that global warning doesn't exist. I'm saying that human beings actually have the capacity to come up with extraordinary solutions to our problems, as we have proven for thousands of...

of years at this point, you know, and human intelligence is incredible and the capacity of the human soul, you know, to move from violence to Christ-like consciousness, like, is there for all of us for the taking if we want to take that road. Like, that's actually available in the human life. But tell people how bad they are over and over again and how they're destroying everything and how scary everything is. And, you know, and then you want to replace them with AI, like, what's the point of even controlling us? Like, it is. It gets down to that.

Like, what's the point of having people at that point? Right. Well, because it's not, yeah, no one, at this point, I feel like at least the, you know, our age and younger or whatever, all agree that something like climate change exists. But we've been told nonstop, that's just nothing we can do about it. That's just, oh, wow. And it's like, we're not in charge of anything. Can you can pay your carbon tax credit when you make purchases to give money to, you know, the richest portion of the population. Meanwhile, in Hawaii, on Oahu, we don't even recycle.

Right. I throw plastic into a trash can on a daily basis on an island in the middle of Pacific. Because you know what? You know why? Because recycling just isn't profitable. so nobody does it here. Yeah. Actually, this all does kind of bring up something I did see on your Instagram, which

was you do go on there and do a lot of like, I don't know if you want to call it, like educational, but you know, like two camera. Yeah. And a lot of it has to do with like manifestation. And I would assume some form of radical positivity. And I was wondering if you could kind of speak to that in terms of like in the face of all this how you keep from becoming so jaded and kind of like giving up. Well, you know, in general, historically in the world,

it is the tough times that really kind of like put us to the test and really ask us to, you know, get clear on what it is that we're doing and what it is that we want. You know, it's kind of like they say comfort is the antithesis of evolution. I think we are being asked to show up in a much more powerful way than we have ever before in this country. We're going through a crisis. We're going through multiple crises. You know, life in America has generally been pretty comfortable, you know, over other nations.

It's funny, and the way I see it, you know, my friends in Europe, when you get together with friends in Europe, nobody really, like, it's like every once in a while you go out to. eat. But, like, in general, like, when I go to Poland and I visit friends, they're like, come over. I'll make dinner. I'll make supper. And actually, I think it historically comes from a mentality that's like the Great Depression mentality. Like, we're not going to waste our money on superfluous things. That doesn't mean we're not going to go out in Poland. Whereas, you know, I was in LA last week. And like, to see anybody, it was a lunch, it was a dinner, was always out at a restaurant. It was, you know, we also socialized by spending money. But so how do you stay positive in the face of negativity? Well, actually, I think, you know, great tests and great

negativity. It's kind of like we're diamonds, you know, and a diamond becomes a diamond when it's under a lot of pressure. You know, Tarkovsky didn't become Tarkovsky because he made millions and had a chateau by Lake Como, you know, Tarkovsky told deep stories that, you know, really, really touch the human psyche because he also went through strife and suffering. Right. So, yeah, you know, the whole, like, the harder, you know, and sorry to, like, get super deep and spiritual. No, that's fine.

Really, truly, I think, you know, the, maybe not the point for. everyone, but the capacity of the human consciousness is that you can be a murderer or you can be Jesus, that there are tools that exist in this world where like you as a human being can actually evolve to the state of pure love consciousness, of, you know, sending love and compassion to the people who are attacking you. Because you understand that that attack comes from great suffering and great confusion. Right. You know, so that's kind of like on that meta level.

Like, so then what do we do as artists? You know, I think in times like this, you get really clear whether you're an artist and you really have something to say and you really have something to contribute and create or were you just in it because it was kind of fun and it wasn't a real job. and you could like make pretty good money or, you know, were you in it just for the money? I think that does happen to people. You know, you like get to a certain level of success and then it's like, I don't even like this job anymore, but I'm addicted to the money and to the lifestyle. So we have to re-examine, you know, and then if you figure out, like I feel like in the past to, you know, through all of this, like, I'm here, I'm not quitting.

I'm not quitting making films. I'm not quitting, shooting things. I'm going to keep, I'm going to keep fighting the good fight for the best stories possible so that we can continue, like, you know, and looking at the big picture so that we can continue to grow our culture and say human things to each other and connect because, you know, again, it's like, it is. It's true whether people believe it or not, like, at a certain level, it is all energy. And the more you exist at a higher vibration, the more you actually cognize solutions, you become creative.

You're not in your reptilian brain. So, like, what do we do in these times? Why do we build positivity through whatever modes, you know, for me, it's, you know, chanting or affirmations, taking care of my body, you know, making sure that I'm in a good space, connecting to friends, because I don't want to live in the reptilian brain. I don't want to live in, oh, my God, I'm so afraid, or what of this, because then you're not actually living anymore. You're just a ball of biochemical reactions, and you're not even in control of yourself.

Existing is not living. Yes, and existing in constant terror is also not living, you know? So it's like whatever we can do. to access that human brain and, you know, which ironically human connection, you know, movies that, you know, stir compassion in us, doing creative things. And yeah, and kind of, I actually really like to take on this philosophy that like in the great, in the great, great scheme of things, imagine if everything that's happening is actually happening for your highest good.

You know, and maybe it's true. Maybe it's not true. I don't know, but we're kind of truth-making machines. We're right-making machines, right, whatever we believe we make right. So that energy of like, hey, whatever it is, I choose, I'm not making a mistake. There is no right and wrong. Every step that I'm taking is taking me forward as long as I'm taking those steps. And like, you know, again, like, what's the solution?

How do you stay positive? you are a diamond. You are a diamond that's being refined. You're in a pressure cooker. And if you can just maintain that crystalline center of yourself, you know, that sense of self. And there are many modalities out there, you know, that can help people do that. You know, you can go on Instagram and you can, you can buy a course for 40 bucks right away. Those are the things that are actually worth it. You know, using those tools. It's important. to positive because if you get negative, you're not going to be able to perceive solutions when they come your way.

Yeah, that, you know, that reminds me of two things. One, when I, you know, finally, I'd been working around film my whole life, but when I finally, like, made an effort to join this club in earnest, I did have to reset a lot of my sort of deeply ingrained ways of thinking and it was funny that a lot of the sort of books that I was reading to help had nothing to do with filmmaking. For instance, Alan Watts's books I found incredibly valuable. Yes. I think it's from Alan Watts that I got that. Imagine that everything is like actually conspiring for you. Right. Well, and it's that constant, I was living in a, as you mentioned,

a constant state of fear, like low level fear that I didn't even perceive because that was just how that was how it worked that's how it was you know fear was it was not you know you can only have contrast if there's the other thing and since i didn't have joy i didn't have i didn't choose to be happy i fear was it so that was it was neutral there was no you know and that uh like become what you are i believe was the one book that that helps a lot but i was also just uh at my girlfriend works in the dance industry and we were at the uh industry dance awards and this amazing woman went on stage. She danced for like Janet Jackson and shit

and like other people. And she got hit with like all different kinds of cancer. This was for like a can't dance dancers against cancer like this charity thing. And she said something that I was like, that's actually a love that. And she was like because you know she's getting all these huge jobs.

And she's like the 30 something. So in the dance world she's a million. And so she was saying how she could have looked at her life getting just destroyed with cancer and not being able to do exactly what she wanted

even though she did get hired on some of these things blah blah blah but she said it could have been different doesn't mean it would have been better and I was like that's a great way to look at life because it's so easy especially in the arts to look back and go

oh I missed that opportunity oh I fucked this up oh whatever whatever and it's like yeah but that just means it would be different that doesn't mean you would have crushed it What if that opportunity you missed, you would have blown and then actually taint your career and not just not had the opportunity, you know? Well, what if it's all actually, you know, happening for your greatest good, you know? So now it's the time where, like, we have an opportunity to get really clear on our own energy, independent of what the energy is like on the outside, you know, and that was when I went back to L.A. last week.

I was like, you know, I think I'm strong enough to, that I could live here. And I could live here even during a downturn because I've actually gotten really good at choosing the kind of internal energy that I want to live in. You know, and that's not to say that I, like, don't get panicked or I'm stress-free all the time. Right. It's not ignorance. Yeah. I use tools all the time. All right. I'm feeling panicked. I'm feeling overwhelmed by this. Okay. I know I need a break. I need to go take a hike. I need to go connect to nature. I need to, you know, whatever it is. I do mantras, you know, and I actually received some mantras for abundance. from a teacher in India many years ago, and I'll tell you, like, the way that the mantra works is I chant the mantra, it's a sound vibration, right?

It's also like, it's like anything we say to ourselves over and over again becomes a mantra that then forms those neuro-biochemical pathways within our brain that then allow more of those kinds of thoughts. So like, you know, what I noticed about the abundance mantras that I use, and this is with any kind of, you know, in L.A. people have lots of kundalini yoga, and that's a great resource kind of stop. What's the one that Lynch loves? Transcendental meditation, yeah.

You know, so it's a certain, like, this mantra, it's like a certain sound vibration. That's a channel. It's almost like a radio station. And I chant it. And while I'm chanting, I'm like, oh, that problem I'm having, this could be a really good solution to it. Like, solutions just start to pop in. And I think solutions start to pop in.

because you're creating more neurological pathways in your brain. The more neurological pathways you have, the more your neurons are connecting, the more brain plasticity you have, the more unique thoughts you can have. Right. The more unique thoughts you can have, the more you can solve problems. Because if you're just like, oh, my God, the film industry is dying, we're going to get replaced by AI. Well, no, like, it's also like we kind of got a, you know,

know, I feel like in some ways we got to start to put up a fight in California with legislature, like, let's pray for the work to come back. There was an article in the LA Times for a producer where he very clearly outlined why productions are running away. Part of it was the permitting system and the permitting system. Film L.A. is brutal right now. You know, and they're going to go somewhere where it's easier. Of course, you know, I also feel like it's a question of legislature when I hear things that like, you know, like a certain big network, making a certain big show in a foreign country and trying to pay people $30 a day

to be extras and not feed them, which is actually, you know, 50% and below the normal asking wage in that country, you know, and is, you know, a fraction of, we pay people like it's this idea like again it's like the automobile industry moving to Brazil like are we okay with that are we okay with that kind of global world where we get replaced by computers yeah we'll do our job for you know 10% of our pay well and it it yeah it does I do hope though that it is kind of like the NFT thing where it's like the you know the trend dies and then they go oh this is no longer

financially viable because the products we're making people aren't buying you know it goes to the point about investment I think when you were saying like oh you have to figure out what kind of artist you are and whether or not you're in this I think that's a great way of thinking about it because like if you truly are an artist sometimes you don't have something to say

but you can especially as DPs we enable a director to say something at the minimum right so you can find projects that spark joy, inspire love, whatever it is, and invest your time in doing those versus, you know, I don't know, anything else where you're just phoning it in or something. But yeah, I think that that is a great way to think about it. It's just like where as an artist, what projects are you investing your time in now? Not that you're able to be choosy, but that is what's going to start to move towards changing the culture,

either physically like in the film industry, you know, work culture or more globally in the sort of viewers. I mean, I think, you know, there's definitely a bit of an indie renaissance going on. But, you know, again, the like kind of overwhelming thing is that it's all about us kind of getting paid less. So what can we do, you know, roll over and get really sad and stressed out? No, like be a diamond. Raise the energy. raise the energy collectively, raise your own energy so that you can connect. So you can get out of fight or flight, you know. And for people in L.A., you know, L.A. is one of the best places in the world to do that.

It has that kind of openness. It has those resources. It's had them for you. The infrastructure, yeah. Yeah, the yoga scene, the meditation. Sure, yeah. Like, you know, it's, you're not a weirdo if you're doing that stuff. Um, there's a lot of tools, but, you know, it's kind of, it's asking us to, you know, awaken from our reptilian brain from greed. You know, it's like greed and fear. I want, I can't. I'm scared. Like, let's explore life at a bit of a deeper level. Um, uh, and this is also like the thing about the AI. Um, and this idea, you know, that these companies have about finding a winning algorithm.

We are evolving as human beings, our tastes, like, it's like why, why are films like Tarkovsky's films or early Star Wars? Why did they capture our imagination so much? Because they had something human to say. Right. But they had something human to say, even though they're like, you know, to people 40 years ago, you know, it's informed so much of our culture, but this kind of search for like doing the same thing over and over again so that it generates that same kind of mass profit, we're not an algorithm, we're not a computer, we're a soul that's evolving, you know, our outlook on the world as a society is constantly evolving. We need human beings to make human things to touch human hearts, to make connections to grow our culture and our society

unless we're like, okay, we're done. We just want a stock market then makes money and we just want the top 1% of people in the country to be around. Everybody else, good luck. Well, and that also brings up a good point, which is something that I've been screaming from the rooftops about, which is A, AI is trained on the past, right?

It doesn't make the future we do. But also, we've seen it where using Star Wars as the example that was a unique thing that a group of people created that we all loved. Then a couple years ago Disney goes,

we need that again so they make episode seven which was just a full on rehash of a new hope, right? It's just different characters and everyone left that theater going well I liked that but I'd like to see

where this go. I mean like everyone was cautious about their enjoyment of it you know, and it's like we can't just, you know, copy, paste, change some names and go, look, it's the thing you liked before because we liked, we didn't like it because of what it was. We liked it because what it represented at the time to us. Exactly. Exactly.

We liked it because of what it represented at the time. You know, we can't keep like it's, it's a ridiculous idea that we can keep recycling the same ideas, you know, and find some winning formula for profit. it like it's just it well because like one thing I think about a lot is is you know I'm on now mentioned it probably too many times but I'm on Reddit and uh you know there's a lot of young filmmakers who get on there and go like I all right I got a Sony FX3 what are the best lights I should get um I want to make movies and no one ever goes like well what move I mean they do now but like for a long time of there was no like what movies are you like what

you're trying to do, why are you trying to say? It's, it's, there seems to be, at least in the younger end of the film industry, quote unquote, a very much like, if I buy this and that equals job or equals product or equals film, you know, it's, there's no like, I think we're speaking of like not being able to incentivize people. We haven't incentivized people to, to, to speak, you know? Well, because, you know, we've also like been training everybody to be a good consumer. If I buy this, will I, you know, then, then it'll be easier. I mean, you know, we've all had those shots. Oh, sure.

Well, and actually. Great. And then maybe one day you buy enough things. You're like, all right, the problem's not on the outside. Maybe it's on the inside because I keep buying shit. And I'm still not happy. And I'm still the same person and the same human chaos. Yeah.

It does make me think, especially to your point about the indie renaissance, because I know you went to NYU and then AFI, right? I've met a bunch of people who interviewed a bunch of people who went to AFI and they all speak very highly of it. But you were in this interesting position where NYU you were shooting film and then when you went to AFI, it was like now it was digital. And digital has certainly enabled many people to now go out and create the film that they wanted to see themselves because that, you know, that cost prohibitation that film used to be is gone. But I was wondering kind of on the ground, what was that transition like for you? What did you see going from a film-based creation economy to digital? Well, you know, I can't really poo-poo it, to be

totally honest, because people like myself got more opportunities because there were, you know, basically more opportunities to get your hands on cameras. You know, I think the digitization of film actually is one of the things that opened up the door to more diversity, more diverse voices, you know, unless you're going to have to edit, what is there, not Quentin Tarantino, but Robert Rodriguez, you know, I mean, Rebel Without a Crew. Rebel Without a Crew, all of that stuff was because of video. He was shooting on video, his first projects, right?

Am I right? No, I think he was 16. I think it was 16, but it was, he did like the whole thing for like five grand. But I also. He now shoots everything on digital. I loved learning film. I think learning film is really important. I think, again, film, like if you learn how to expose film, if you learn from the film side,

it's funny because actually whenever I teach workshops about cinematography and I teach about what exposure is, I still teach from the Ansel Adams book, the negative. which was written a hundred years ago. I have a, they made, they made postage stamps and field notes books with Ancelab. That's one of his photos up there. You know, because if you understand exposure according to the zone system,

then like, you're good to go on any camera. Yeah. Shout out to Ed Lachman putting that in monitors now. Yeah. Yes, exactly. You know,

so again, it goes back to that like really understanding the basics. I think film lets you like really understand the basics in kind of a, you know, um, uh, what's the word? It's, um, it's, like, there's a, there's a risk with film, you know, so like you have to, it's not like you're just going to rewind and you have to pay a bigger price for the risk. You like, it makes you learn it a little bit better. Um, I, uh, you know, when I was leaving NYU, my

some of my final projects we were still editing on a steamback and it was that's terrifying it was nice to have that tactile idea of what this actually is

you know and then translate that to the digital space I can't imagine what it's like never never you know where it's like an abstract

thing in a timeline right and then it's funny with the creation of digital images through chat GPT. I digress to chat GPT again because my fifth grade son's private school is having them use chat GPT, which I'm like, fuck you guys. Get out of there. What am I paying for? I'm getting out of there. But, you know, so they have to

make these pictures of themselves and through prompts on chat GPT and my son wants to be an astronaut. So he's, you know, made these fantastical pictures. I love that he still wants to be. be an astronaut. So many kids don't want to be astronauts anymore. But, you know, I'm looking at these pictures and I'm like, you know, there was a time not too long ago where like you would get all of the organic elements together and you could make that picture in your living room. Right. And the power to like know how to make that picture in your living room, you know, was really truly the power of photography and images. Yeah. Well, And editing on like a Steinbeck or a movieola or whatever maybe did imbue a sense of pacing that you don't get in Premiere or Avid or whatever, just in the fact that, you know, you hit the foot pedal or whatever and, you know, it goes zipping by at a certain speed.

Like it's all the same analog, like, speed, you know, rhythm, whereas you can just go zipping through a timeline with your mouse and you don't get a sense of. Funny, you just made me wonder, I wonder if digital. never happened if we would transition to such fast cuts. Because, you know, like now so many movies and shows have really fast cuts. As you were talking, I was like, hmm, I wonder, like, had digital never happened if we would be creating media that has such fast cuts all the time because just like it would be so labor intensive. I mean, I've done fast cuts on a steam back before.

But to kind of go back to your question and round out the answer, I don't think. it's worth it to deny the future and to deny technology. I think, you know, I'm glad that I kind of grew up on the edge of both film and digital. And I know film and digital. I think digital, you know, kind of paved the way for all of these lenses that we have today, all of these like availability of controlling the look in different ways. I actually think it made cinematography for me, you know, personally also really, really interesting. It gives us. more more options well and the I have heard because we all we the the topic of lenses specifically has come up because you know camera technology is pretty much plateaued you're buying into a

body really if you're going to be buying or renting any camera you know it's like inputs and outputs it has nothing to do with the sensor all the sensors are good but lenses have exploded and I have like every other person I've interviewed has like either new lenses is awesome we get so options to like try new shit and then or uh there's too many options now and i think we're we we're getting lost in the sauce and i'm like this is great because it's like the one thing that i'm like yeah they're both right you know because some of that like especially like all these like optically perfect chinese lenses that are coming out you know all these like rando cinema lenses that are really affordable and rad uh they all kind of do look the same on

rescue high surf in the water which ones um um I'm going to have to get you the name. Oh, but it's like the DZOs or something, Vespids or whatever. Yes, something. Our, you know, our water unit, because our water cinematographer, Don King, he, he bought his Raptor for the show. And he bought those lenses. He bought those lenses because he makes his own custom housings. Underwater houses.

Yeah, he's really like, they make really small custom housings. They try to keep a small footprint because then you can get that photography. from being above the water and under the water. When you have a really big rig in the water, you're kind of stuck in one configuration or the other. It's not as dynamic. It's also really hard and bigger waves. So that was the driver for those lenses.

And because when he does a show, for this show, it was going to be a custom housing for the Raptor. It was also like he wasn't going to try to rent lenses. He was just going to build the package and buy the package. And they look good. You know, in the end, they cut together with the rest of the show. I saw you saying that that show was shot pretty much exclusively outside and on a pretty, like, indie pace. Yes, very indie pace.

90% natural light, you know, that doesn't mean that we're not controlling the light or approaching the light in a certain way. and yes it was we had a very small footprint and that was really kind of driven by the location and by the style of the show we're on the north shore we're in a small community there's one two lane road that connects i don't know like 30 40 50 miles of coastline um i've been there it's it's gorgeous and very rural and rural and um and you know and very trafficy uh because of that two-lane road. So you don't want to be a big company. There's just not spaces to take over with a big company. John Wells also has these like, you know, I feel like his evolution as a filmmaker from ER to today.

He's like, I just want to go. I just don't want to wait. I don't want to light anything. I just want to let's get to set and let's create, you know, and let's be free to create. And that was really kind of the MO of the show. Let's be free to create on set. which, you know, then for us translated to, I didn't have a DIT on set.

I had two really small monitors. The director had small monitors. You know, I... No video village. Tiny video village. Like we could fit into a five-by-five-tent, you know, and that also meant, like, so the John Wall's rules are no chairs on set, no sides on set, no sides because... those sides. Because the set is not a place for actors to memorize lines. It's a place to come and deliver the lines. So he kind of sets that. Interesting. As camera operators, camera operators, you know, I can keep my little sides so that I can follow the story, so that I can follow along of what we're doing. But it is. It's this like, you know, we want to turn that way. We can really quickly turn in that direction. We know I have a huge company. Even in our small company, it's amazing,

how big we get. Give me a second. I got to plug my computer in. Yep. So yes, very much. We shot it. It was shooting a TV show like an independent film. Yeah. And that brings me to two questions, though, because I had one preformed and now I want to know this. It's like, what were you doing to shape the lighting to make it look so good and up to the standard of, you know, a CBS drama? Because how am I going to ask two questions at once? One, I'd love to know about your natural lighting. Like, how are you shaping that, especially, you know, in a place like Hawaii where the light is already quite pretty? But also working on a CBS show or a Fox show, as you have, did you run into any, or have you run into any, like, institutional knowledge that came from those things that you didn't have before working on other features or different shows?

two very different questions. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They were the same in my head. Yes, I think, you know, stepping into shooting a TV show is a completely different beast from an independent film. And this wasn't, you know, on this show,

but when I shot Monster Land for Hulu, that was like, it was like, who's the producing director? What do they actually do? I'm not really sure. Like, what are all these people who are working on the show? I feel like for a DEP going from Indies to television, the really, like, the thing that I wish somebody was like, by the way, the post-production supervisor is like your best friend or your worst enemy, like make friends with that person because you will live and die kind of on some of that person's decision, that they're a very, very important collaborator for you in a television environment as you're setting up the post-workflow, because that will deter.

you know, what dailies are seen and in what state and by whom. So it's really important. The post-production supervisor is also the person that if, you know, you're on the same team, hey, can you hold those dailies back? They were a little bit dark. We need to reprint them. Sometimes it means, you know, in a good post-production supervisor, if there's costs to that, you know, will help you communicate with your producers about it. That, yeah, literally, like, I wish that there was like a little note, you know, when graduating from indie films to television,

understand the role of the post-supervisor and how they can be your greatest ally as the cinematographer. Right. Because, for instance, and actually this is a great way to round out to your previous question, I have done some shows without a DIT. Here, I was like I had argued for that DIT. I was told, no, it's not going to happen.

Okay, it's not going to happen. But I was like, on my past shows where I didn't have a DIT, I still pulled a bunch of big monitors. And I was like, we're exterior. I'm not going to do that to the crew. You know, they want to be really mobile. Let's be really mobile. But so what was really important to me in a situation with no DIT is,

who's our post house? How are we doing our dailies? Our daily is a machine one line. or is there a dedicated Daileys operator that I can talk to and essentially use like my DIT? You know, so that goes back to those conversations with the post-production supervisor. Where are we doing?

Daily's, which house are we going to? And in this case, we went with Picture Shop, and I had worked with Picture Shop on several shows, you know, and I was so happy we went to Picture Shop because then I could say, hey, can we get Shane Harris to be our finals colorist? Um, because Shane and I have done three shows together. And once you kind of have a language with a colorist, it's easier to start setting the look. So now, um, how am I? Uh, so then it was like, yes, we can have Shane. Great. We can have Shane. Shane and I have created a variety of different luts together in the past. So like even pre-testing, I can be like, hey, Shane, can you send over some luts, um, that I can use for the test? And then I'll, also shoot some raw footage and we'll see if we need to rebuild some luts. Here's some

references of what I'm looking for. This show, you know, is a good reference. And he can build those lots for me. And then the second, you know, the second question was, do we have a dedicated stills colorist? So yes, we have a dedicated daily's colorist. And then basically, you know, that daily colorist, I had his phone number on speed dial. I would text him most of the time and I'd be like, hey, by the way, I didn't open up for scene, scene five, shot 26B, take four. Can you make sure it matches the rest? Right. That was my favorite one.

So that we can, you know, so that we can make sure that those dailies that are being used to edit with look cohesive so that when the network is looking at the cut, you know, because if you have, if you have dailies that aren't cohesive and have large color shifts, you know, somebody at the network can be looking at that. I'll be like, what's wrong with the cinematographer? Right. To fire them, this looks like poo-poo-pucka. But it's really your post-production pipeline that isn't worked out. And that, like, you know, when we say things like the post-production pipeline, it sounds like such a technical thing. But really, it's a human thing.

It's what am I looking for in that pipeline? Do I know the person who's going to be coloring that end footage? Oh, great. Or maybe I don't know that person. We have to start having conversations. of what it is that we're looking at. Do I have a dedicated daily stills colorist or isn't a machine? Because when I did, I know what you did last summer.

At Sony, they had one light dailies. And without a DIT with one light dailies, that actually took us like a month to dial in the look of the show and we ended up bringing in DITs because that post-production end was a, you know, algorithmic, non-human process. Right. And what it was spitting out wasn't great because the truth is, you know, this technology that we're making needs human guidance. And, you know, and again, it's like, what are we doing?

Do we want a human society or not? Well, and to your point, like, everyone early on when they get a hold of cameras, they're like, oh, this footage looks great, this footage looks bad. And it's like you're putting the manufacturer's 709 Lut on it, which is. is technically correct, but is, it looks like crap. Like, it's not, it's not, you know, it's not built to be looked at creatively or emotionally. It's built to, to make it viewable on a monitor, which is not the same thing, you know? Yeah. So, yeah, one lighting an entire shoot is, is a toughie.

What if there's night scenes? Yeah. Yeah. You know, what if the sun is changing all day long, like it is in Hawaii? sunny, cloudy, dark light, dark light, you know, sometimes it's moving so fast. And as the only DP on a show like that, I don't even have the time to pull the iris. Sometimes, you know, like, oh, I didn't offload those NDs before the take and the sun came out and it creates a five-stop difference. And, you know, and I need a little bit or the reverse, you know, the sun goes away. I didn't

take out the NDs and now it's too dark, I know from experience, I can dig out that darkness and still make a good looking thing. So, you know, how to prepare for a natural light show and what was going, you know, through my head. How do I help myself in order to create a beautiful looking show? So, you know, first, I think it's kind of, you know, what do you consider beautiful looking? Is it super sharp? Super clinical. Is it filmic? My personal taste is, you know, I like things that feel cinematic and look filmic and not too sharp so I kind of start there

and it to me you know as much as you said you know camera technologies have really plateaued I beg to differ a little bit I still think we could deal with highlights I do think we can oh yeah it's the Alexa 35 and that's it that can just see into the sun

for some reason yeah I haven't I look forward to working with Alexa 35 for that. But so, you know, one of the things that I was thinking is, you know, I use the Panavision DXL on a couple of shows. I think it renders a really beautiful human looking chip. That's originally the monster chip from red. And, you know, I had permission on the show to choose whatever cameras I wanted. I have used a Sony Venice here in Hawaii. I have used the airy, Alexa's, I think we used the large format minis on the GIS.

But I thought that with a natural light, you know, that kind of that softer chip could help me. You know, and that's like step ones. Okay, so I got a softer kind of more organic looking chip. And then next. In the raptor. In the raptor, yes. So, you know, it was also, so we actually pulled the Dxels. The raptors were going to be our stunt and water camera.

Once we got the gear out to Hawaii, the DXLs built out, you know, were like 44 pounds. It's an all-handheld show in really deep North Shore sand. If you haven't been on the North Shore, it really is a different kind of sand. It's like it's a deep. You're falling deep. Yeah, it's a workout just to walk down the beach. And the first sequence we shot was a stunt sequence. And so we pulled out the Red Raptors first.

I didn't have a chance to go to L.A. and test them. So it was kind of like, all right, we're testing. We're kind of testing while we're shooting. We're going to see if we can dial in this camera so that, you know, it's not glitching and all the cables are working, you know, that the fans aren't turning on, that it's dealing with the weather well. And for the most part, it really worked out really well. and then we kind of ended up sending the Dxels back to L.A., and we ended up committing to the Raptors through the whole shoot. So I had that softer chip.

The Raptor chip, I thought, was even better than the Monster chip because it has those 17 stops of dynamic range, which on a show where I'm dealing with such intense contrast. So it was amazing that, like, just that one extra stop did make a world of a difference for me to be able to keep. the shadow detail and to keep the highlight detail and, you know, so I started with a softer chip and then, you know, I knew I also wanted slightly softer lenses and I had this experience

with these lenses that I used on the listener. And those, they were the lights, the lights lenses, which were rehoused four by five old lenses. And I remember when before the listener, I was testing them at Panavision and when I would put like just under under fluorescent light like already in that lens like I was like oh everything looks better skin looks smoother you know the light somehow like feels a little softer so you know the next thing to control the light I'm thinking about the softness of the lenses so I was on the lookout for something like that I knew I didn't want to use those rehouse four by five lenses because each lens in that set has a different backing. And it necessitates adapters. And I can do that on a seven-day indie film. I can't do that

on a fast-paced TV show on the beach. I think my camera department would have quit. I'd be like, what the fuck, you know, like how many different bags do we need? You know, so. And to keep them out of the sand, too, with all those lens like fiddlings, you know? One grain of sand, you're dead. So, you know, I knew I wanted softer lenses and I also knew that I wanted the mounts and the sizes of the lenses in that lens family to be as similar as possible because as you may or may not know, you know, adjusting the focus rings for a different size lens takes that bit of extra time, which is actually, you know, Hawk came out with those spherical animal, the spherical mini and a more. anamorphosized lenses that like mimic an anamorphic look, but are really spherical lenses. They used it on the end. With the insert on the back, so you get the bouquet difference? Yes, with the insert on the back.

So you get the bocay difference, but like they're all the same size. They're all the same size backing. So it's like plug and play once you've dialed the focus, gears in on the camera. You know, you basically don't really have to keep recalibrating the lenses. Right. So Panavision had the Vs series, which is a new large format lens that they really recommended and rave to me about. And I tested them. And they looked great.

They did that thing that the lights did. They were a little bit softer than the premos. They flared a little bit more than the primos. And then it turned out that they only had three sets of zams and 22 shows waiting to get their hands on those zooms. I needed zooms, so we actually ended up using the ingenue Rouge zooms, which are, you know, also like they're a beautiful lens, you know, they have this warm, softness to them. And they matched, you know, they were the closest match to the V series primes. So there, you know, I'm starting, I'm actually the start for working with natural light

and controlling natural light is really what medium and what lenses am I shooting. you know so I can like take the edge off of any hard light you know I lean towards softness you know that's both to take the edge off of the hard light and because I like you know I like to take the edge off of the hard light I like beautiful things I like I like beautiful ugly you know I'm not I'm still learning to lean into you know deep sharpness and front light you know for me it's backlight, side light, you know, and things that feel and look cinematic. And then, you know, and then it was about saying to the directors as you're scouting and prepping your episode, like when you're thinking of things, make sure you have your sun path

because I'm not prepping with you and think about backlight and side light. One of the tricks, you know, it's actually on my Instagram in one of those videos, you know, what's the best beauty light out there. It's actually absence of any directional light. Passive light is the best beauty light. Shadow is the best beauty light. I learned that on NCIS with Vanessa. She would be like, oh, I'm standing in the sun.

Hey, Anka, look, I can stand under the sunning room here. Does that help us? Now we don't have to build a frame and we can move faster. And, you know, so I kind of took. Thanks, buddy. Yeah, it helps. It helps. It definitely helps if you have actors who are willing to play ball, you know, especially on a show like this. And it was, you know, John Wals was like, I don't like a lot of makeup. I don't want to do a lot of lighting. These people are already beautiful. Like to him, you know, wrinkles on middle-aged women are okay. It's a natural thing. It happens. It happens. I know we don't see it on TV, but it's true. I love how people on TV are like 60 and wrinkle-free on NCIS, you know, and I like, I went into NCIS and I was like, I'm going to book like Vanessa every chance I get because I don't want to note from the studio that she has bags under her eyes.

So that's, I think, you know, that's another difference between, you know, going from indies to bigger movies or to television shows. there's a bigger thing above everybody. You know, when you look at your showrunner boss, they're actually, they're not the end of the line. There are 20 executives above them who are so divorced from the process of what we're doing on set. You know, you really are, I love what a friend of mine told me a couple of years ago

when I was getting into TV and they were like, you know, you're basically you're a high-level manager at a Fortune 500 company. And that's really part of it. You are an artist, you're using your artistry, you're using your craft, but you are a manager at a Fortune 500 company, and you are responsible for the delivery of your piece of the pie with your team.

And, you know, so it's that kind of, you know, you have to think like a business person as well as an art. artist. You have to, you know, it's like that bad word, politics. But what is politics? You know, honestly, politics is just being human and humane and communicating with people and listening to people. Yeah. You know, an understanding that you're not the most important voice in the room. Right. And that possibly, quite possibly the story itself and the project as a whole has a voice. to, you know, this is like, because somebody could say, oh, yeah, the director's the most important voice in the room. Actually, in television, you, there's just turtles. I, like, I say to the crew,

you know, and I say this to camera operators, I think, you know, when you're, when you're working your way up and your camera operating and the DPs, like, fix your headroom, it's like, oh, no, they don't like my headroom. Or, like, can you tilt down a little bit? And it's like, no, it actually has nothing to do with you or your aesthetic or me liking, we're not liking you. I'm looking at two shots right now, and I just want the headroom to match on these two shots. And that guy's headroom is not better than your headroom. It just feels better for this scene right now. Right.

Yes. Yes. You know, that like, it's again, like the difference between indie and television, you have many bosses in television. You are producing directors, and you have executive producer writers, and then you have the money producers, and all of those people might be. conflict with each other, as it happens sometimes, you know, and then, like, they look at you, like, pick your team. Yeah. Oh, goodness.

And sometimes you have to pick a team. Yeah. Are you, when you're put in those situations, are you, are you able to, you know, at this stage in your career, make a decision? Because decision paralysis is probably the death of a lot of people. Are you able to make that decision and be comfortable knowing that, like, your. voice is valuable and you made the quote unquote correct decision for you or do when people put you in those positions are is it have nothing to do with you and they're just looking for a coin flip

um i think you know sometimes they're looking for a coin flip um i think you know sometimes it's kind of about like if if you know if your bosses at the top are kind of in two camps and they're having a conflict between each other and they're kind of you know and and you're subtly being put into a position where like you have to choose who your ally is um i think you know one you make sure that you're very cordial to both sides you actually like you don't play with an open card you're not like oh you know so and so brought me here so fuck you motherfucker try not to do that even if you want to, you know, because with every job, you kind of, you want to emerge from that job with more fans than at the end.

That's the goal. Like, you want to emerge with, you want to emerge with people from that job inviting you to come play with them again. And then you also have to kind of feel out, you know, who has more loyalty to you. You know, and I was in a situation, a number of years on a project where the producers and the director who had brought me into the project weren't getting along. The director was going to get fired, and he started throwing everybody under the bus, including all the people who they, you know, who they brought in.

And there's really no saving that person then. They kind of buried their own. They're kind of digging their own grave, you know. And then my responsibility as a professional is to actually try to finish the show. You know, like I can't walk off and quit the job, you know, that other guys already throwing me under the bus. You know, like, so he's not loyal to me or, you know, and sometimes, you know, in conflicts like that, you end up losing. relationship unfortunately you try not to um but you know sometimes things happen that are out of your hands um yeah yeah it's uh it's the one thing they didn't teach at least me in film school

there's so much about you know lighting and lensing and acting and editing and then you get on set and you're like there's like a whole realm of of human interaction that they never train you for. Even in, like, business school, you barely do. Like, if there's, like, any piece of advice, like, understand what's meant to be kept to your inside voice. Yeah. That's what they said. I was terrible at that for too long. I had a crew member tell a producer on a show that they were very difficult to work with. And I was like, you know, that's not really a good move. And their defense was, well, it's true. Okay. It's true. But, you know, we don't have to say every true thing.

You might think that, you know, that person is not good looking, but you're not going to be like, hey, you're pretty ugly. Right. It's it, you know, it's, for me, it was, I have a really strong urge to point out injustice loudly. And it not global injustices, any. you know someone didn't get a fork and someone else did i'll be like what the fuck you know and i had to really tamp that down a little bit and like only bring it up if it actually matters when in america working for the man i mean really we're anywhere like it's like we can all take some notes from being a little bit new england and waspe you know like

it's that like if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all and not that I've always employed that, but I certainly, you know, where I've like, you know, because I was frustrated and whether I was venting to somebody and I've gone off the rails and I talked smack about somebody 90% of the time in retrospect. I'm like, don't do that again. You know, to yourself, I was actually speaking with some agents the other day and, you know, they were like we always tell our clients that don't vent to the person on set, call us. Yeah. And that's such good advice. Like, you know, you really, you want to leave behind fans and things get frustrating. You know, it's not like I've employed this advice always. But yeah, be careful what comes out of your mouth and how. You know, and I think they don't teach us that in school because I think my generation and our generation is actually much better. at work politics. Sure. At, you know, we don't, like, we decided it's not cool to sexually

harass people at work anymore. It's generally a no-no, actually, come to find out. It's not cool to scream at people because you're frustrated, like things that, you know, were pretty dysfunctional in the 70s and in the 80s. And I do find, you know, sometimes when I work with professionals who work during those times. It's like their favorite thing to do is to be like, oh, Anka, we know some people in come up and let's talk shit. Right. Oh, I hate that.

People who are like, who are like, oh, let's talk shit about me. And I'm like, I don't know you well enough. Well, at all something. I'm not going to start talking smack about people because, hey, buddy, it's a really small world, and I'm not going to tell you, but everybody out there thinks you're crazy because you talk about people all the time. Well, and I have, now it's pretty well managed because I needed to make a lot of life changes to fix it.

But at the time, when I was saying, you know, living in fear and whatnot, pretty bad anxiety. And talking shit about people doesn't feel good after the fact. like anytime that I feel the need to say something about someone, it's usually because of something they've done, not who they are, unless they're just an absolute piece of shit, then I don't let it fly because it's usually pretty easy to tell. But if it's something they've done or a transgression they've made or whatever, the knee-jerk reaction of mine to potentially talk shit usually can be solved by quieting that part of my voice and trying to just dovetail into finding a solution.

And that feels a lot better when you fix a thing than it does to break down a thing. At least in my head. Yeah, it goes back to that whole diamond conversation. We want more opportunities. We want solutions for how to change this current situation. Because I do think also the current situation has a lot to do with our voices and our agency. You know, it's kind of like that somebody the other day told me they were like, I'm praying for production to come back.

And I was like, don't pray for production to come back. Like, get into local politics and government and, you know, start asking that those permitting changes be made, get in, you know, and it literally is, and I feel like I do because everybody's, and Hawaii people are really into local politics because there's a general feeling that, you know, that here we can only affect local politics and that that can affect something at a national level. But, you know, I don't think people in L.A. think in those terms. So they're like, I'm praying.

I'm praying that the city changes the permitting situation. It's like, well, we don't have to pray for the city to change the permit. We can actually advocate and lobby. City council meetings. I mean, that is one thing that I hate. One thing I hate about the internet. People in Hawaii are really good at. They're like always that they're like always that.

the council meeting, always at the town meeting, always at the community meeting. But that's the thing that the internet's taken from us is we think that by tweeting about something that will raise awareness. And it doesn't. It just tells other people what you do or do not like. The people in charge of making those changes aren't on Twitter. Or if they are, it's like one of their staff, right? You know, that doesn't end up with them. Even if you call them, like it's not that effective. So that is a problem. that those mechanisms for reaching representatives have been sort of stripped away to a degree, but also we're just not trained to do it. But I am a big advocate of when you see something to be the change that you want to see.

Like if the conversation becomes, oh, everyone's so, for instance, people like to say, oh, it's very hard to make friends in L.A. Well, fuck it. I'm the first person to be like, you want to come over to my house? you know like I'm I'm the person out there just trying to be friendly with folks yeah come on I'll show you my favorite restaurant you know the bar down the street's great you know that's that's my thing but my girlfriend sometimes doesn't like you know you know it goes back to that first question like how do you stay positive why do you stay positive even when things are difficult um because you want it you like you want to be that light

make you want to experience you know and then and then really selfishly um for people who need some self motivation why stay positive why work on your own internal environment and be that light because you know fucking a in a time of darkness when you carry a lot of light people are going to be like I want to be a part of that right to work with that person I will I will say to that point I 100% agree with you. The only thing that I learned, you have to watch out for. And I think you'll probably agree with this is some people live in darkness, see light, get very excited and want to be around you without being part of that anymore. They want to suck your energy.

They want to suck your energy. And you got to watch out for it because it's a lot of times these people are very nice. But you have to realize when someone is not trying to. they want to suck your energy that's the best way to put it which is actually okay because if you have the energy to give yes you know and that's where it gets back to like doing your own work on your own internal temperature um because really you know pure love energy is an infinite source You know, love is an infinite source. It's not like if you have one kid and then you have another kid, you love them less because you don't have enough love.

Like, but, you know, and I know these are like, you know, can seem like new age, true, fruit concepts. But they're not. It has to do with going from the reptilian brain to the human brain and the human brain and the human heart together are magical. They make magical things happen. There's a meditation from Premachotan. She's like a Buddhist nun. She's written many books. And actually, I think it is.

It's called Tonglin. And Tonglin meditation. And I think like in New Age circles, people are like, wait, I'm going to have all this bad energy if I do this meditation. Because the meditation is you breathe all of your suffering into your heart and that you breathe out compassion through your heart into that suffering. Then you breathe in all the suffering from your home, from your neighborhood, from the world. There are monks in the world who do Tonglin all the time, 24 hours a day, breathing in the suffering. And, you know, I know when I first encountered it, I was like, wait, if I breathe in all that

suffering, I'm going to get sick. Yeah. They told us to stop smoking. But the truth is that your human heart has the power to witness that. witness that suffering through a lens of compassion and that compassion once you tap into it it's a renewable resource it doesn't end so yes the point it is to become so much of the light that it doesn't actually matter the people that people are working with you because they are sucking your energy but it's okay because you're tapped into a bigger source than you

and you become kind of like you're like the feeder of that energy. Right, which does take practice, though. Certainly for me, it was not when I started, I hated, when friends of mine were like, dude, you just feel like you're in a better place. I was like, well, I finally realized what people meant when they said you have to choose to be happy. Yes. And then the people I was around, because, you know, you attract the type of thing you are. So I was not necessarily surrounded by a bunch of like folk.

There's a lot of, you know, shit talk, you can say. I also think happiness is a skill. It's a skill that you build certain habits. Yep. There's just a lot of like natural habit building in our world that programs us the other way. Yeah. We are. We're programmable and we can program ourselves and we can program ourselves for happiness.

Well, and I feel like finding joy and anything can sometimes appear to be, either naivity, naivety, ignorance or selfishness. Because, you know, it's crazy, but you'll get people, I'm sure you've met them, who are like, oh, what, you just think, you know, the world's just fucking rainbows. Life's tough. You know, how dare you be, you know, that kind of thing. And I'm always, and it used to make sense and now it doesn't, that line of thinking.

Well, you know, it's like, you know, the base of like Buddhist teaching. is the Buddha was like the world is full of suffering. And once you accept that the world is full of suffering, you know, once you're like, okay, this is a fact, you can actually do things to change your relationship to that. So no, it's not about white lighting and it's all rainbows, you know, it's about being the solution. whole thing and then still it's about like it's not like you know I read the news I like to stay informed

but I still like choose to come back with everything that I know to that idea of like you know I am a diamond and I've done you know I've done enough kind of self work where I am you know getting stable enough where I hold my own energetic and I can choose my own energetic, in a sea of not enoughness. Right. I know how to witness that there's more than enough. Yeah. Tiet, Tonglin.

Just, yeah, it's an experiment, you know, like, even like you have ankle pain or something and you, read the pain, then put it in your heart. And then you're like, you're like so compassionate to that ankle. And it does. It changes things. And then you kind of, you can get bigger and bigger and bigger with it. And then it's kind of amazing because it doesn't take anything away. It actually gives you more.

I think where people take energy is when we witness people who are not aligned and we really want them to change. It's by wanting them to be different than they are that we give away our own energy. Right. Yeah. Accept them for who they are. are ironically you know we actually give them um then we give them the room and the freedom to change and it's much more likely that they will change these are hard things to learn you know like it takes you know a couple of failed relationships yeah well no one wants to be i mean you be the person

that i want you to be right well and especially the hard you know if you know like especially it's especially difficult if you've been there you're seeing someone deal with something that you've with. Even if you're like, hey, this happened to me, a lot of times people won't receive that message. No one wants to be told what to do. And I'm sure, certainly for me, I'm sure it happened with you. The only way that you change or heal or whatever is by coming to that conclusion on your own. No one ever sat you down and went like, well, maybe sometimes. But like, generally, no one sits you down and goes, here's the solution to your problem. And then you go, oh, great. I'm glad. I'm I'm glad I, thanks for bringing that to me, because you're not in the mindset to receive, you know, everyone's problems are unique. And my, you know, no one's ever hurt like this before. Then you hear a song and you're like, oh, shit. Someone else did. Four years ago. One is the greatest thing we can do is actually just listen to somebody. Yeah. Rather than try to solve their problem. It took me many years to learn that. Yeah. Don't solve other people's problems. No.

I don't want them to be different if they're an asshole. Send them a love. And then go hang out with friends that make you happy. You know, send them love. Love is infinite and have your boundaries. Yep. Yep. Well, I know we could talk for another hour,

but I've already held you a half hour over and I know your time's very valuable. I can't wait to hear this podcast. I hope everybody goes to Kondelini Yoga in L.A. and gets really positive and oxygenates their brain. And then they'll, like, be like, oh, yeah, we have the power to elect local officials. Exactly. Well, like, I loved this conversation and I look forward to for people to hear it. And I'm coming over when I come to L.A.

I'm going to do. Just hit me up. I'm not kidding. I'll show you all the good spots and going to cut this out. Frame and Reference is an owlbot production. It's produced and edited by me. Kenny McMillan and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. If you'd like to support the podcast Reckney, you can do so on Patreon by going to frame and reppod.com, where you can get all the

episodes and clicking the Patreon button. It's always appreciated, and as always, thanks for listening.