Frame & Reference Podcast - 174: "The Fire Inside" Cinematographer Rina Yang, BSC

Episode Date: January 30, 2025

This week I'm privileged to have Rina Yang, BSC on the program to talk about her work on "The Fire Inside" Enjoy! F&R Online ► https://www.frameandrefpod.com Support F&R ► https://www.patreon.com/FrameAndRefPod Watch this Podcast ► https://www.YouTube.com/@FrameAndReference Produced by Kenny McMillan Website ► https://www.kennymcmillan.com Instagram ► https://www.instagram.com/kwmcmillan

Hello and welcome to this episode 175 of frame and reference. You're about to drop into a conversation between me, Kenny McMillan, and my guest, Rina Yang, BSC, DP of The Fire Inside. Enjoy. have you had any time because it's the holiday have you had any time to like actually watch stuff i know a lot of times when people are working you don't get to watch no i've started binge watching stuff because i'm baffed and i want to vote properly um by watching all this in movies they spend their life making right right i've been watching and i'll try and watch more tonight yeah what do you've been watching uh tonight i'm going to watch the brute list I've seen Alli Imaginaslai and all the good

great contenders and just beautiful movies You know Yeah So I've been watching I've been watching those long I had for the podcast Not that I wasn't going to watch him anyway But I watched

Nosphiratu Wicked and Nickel Boys back to back Oh beautiful I love nickel boys It's so beautiful It was so great I got to talk to Jomo about it He's fucking lovely

Yeah But certainly emotional whiplash going from Nasferatu to Wicked to Nickel Boys. Yeah, I need to watch those Nosferatu in the weekend. I've been kind of saving those entertainment ones for Christmas. I want to watch more like the cinematography movies for now. Nassiratu is shot incredibly. Oh, great. It's a good time.

My memory of it is it being in black and white and it's not. Oh, what? Okay. It's so, it's so, like, dense visually. It's very nice. That's interesting, because that's challenging to do it, like, you know, expressionistic, visual, if it's color. Yeah, well, they shot film. Oh, great.

I'll check it out. Yeah, because I know you, you shoot a shit ton of film, right? I try to, but I don't get to shoot on film as often as I like to. No. Yeah. Yeah. Because like, especially all that, you know, what's funny is I, I've talked to a lot of like older DPs and they're usually people who like built their career on, you know, music videos and shit. And I'm always like, what do you guys see as the current thing like that?

But you're actually out here shooting all these incredible music videos. You get to do it the OG or the way that I learned, I guess. I came through music videos too. So I'm just kind of still doing music videos because I love them on, you know, just slightly on a bigger scale. Yeah. Yeah. What was the one that like where you were like, oh, finally I get like a, I get to actually flex a little bit? I don't know.

I mean, like, I haven't said that I get to the bigger videos, but it's still very tough, you know. You don't love the money on the commercial all the time or this, you know. So, yeah. It's still a very hard project, but very satisfying when you do music videos because, you know, you do videos because you love the artist or the music. And, you know, it tends to be cool visual. Yeah. I'm definitely a big Deolipa fan of all things. So that was fun to see you done a bunch of her videos.

Yeah, yeah. What can we do was great. She's saying, well, she looks great on camera. She's such a great performer. Yeah. What are the kind of the, like, I guess. this kind of fits into commercials too, but like commercials and music videos

certainly follow a fashion, you know, I imagine there's music videos or people are like, no, I want it to look like, you know, technical color or whatever.

But like what are kind of some of those things that a lot of those productions are asking of you that you aren't getting asked for like, obviously a narrative needs to look a little more realistic a lot of times. But for commercials and music videos. Yeah. Well, I think commercials,

to be fair, all look the same. But it's an easy, not easy, but it isn't, does that not make it kind of like a, I'm going to use easy, but like it's a target, right? You know, it's like coloring in the lines kind of. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's most of the projects, it's, you know, I've shot maybe like 500 commercials or something that the, you know what they want and you can achieve those as long as, you know, you're, you know, you're let production or what you need to achieve those works. But then every now and then maybe very rarely one in 20 or one in 50 you get a very visual, beautiful commercial and, you know, we get lucky sometimes. So those occasions are rare and those are the ones that look different from the rest of them. But most of the time, yes, it does.

They all kind of look the same, maybe because, I mean, there is no prep time on the time to dream, like what we do when we make movies in the, We try to be more inventive, maybe, or the visuals feel unique because we are trying to come up with the visuals that's specific to the narrative and the story of the movie that we're making. When it comes to commercials, you know, yesterdays, there tends to be some sort of narrative, but, you know, we're trying to sell something in 30 seconds, and it tends to go with the same kind of narrative. and the look that I guess the consumers and the people feel comfortable and familiar with yeah

when you're in prep for those things is it like is there just like a checklist like all right so we're going to be shooting on Master Primes it's going to be on Alexa it's going to we need these fixtures The commercials no I

every commercials I do they ask me what I want to show on but then you know if some creative commercials come along and if I wanted to shoot on film that could become a tricky conversation, like the budget constraints and stuff. But, no, I pick the camera, lenses.

I talk to my director, you know, what kind of lenses you, you know, do these for this project, and I'll suggest the options that are available in that city or if you could fly the lenses in from other places. And then, you know, I'm very specific about, like, the lighting fixtures that I would use. because it's just like if I don't have the tools that I trust,

I can't really do my job well. So, yeah, I have a specific list of lights that I try to get, depending on the, you know, the look we try and achieve. Yeah. What are those? Because I certainly, I've become sick of sky panels. I don't, there's better options. We have cream sources now.

Even Teno flow is better. Yeah, I mean, there are dozens of options. And, you know, it's, I think the part of the reasons why everything looks the same is we use the same camera, same kind of lenses, and the lights, you know, the lights we just use light mats, titans, helios, sky panels, vortex, all the same stuff. The, you know, the diffusion, the cloth that we use is the same, the grid, silk, you know, we're bouncing off the ultra bounce. so that you know it all feels the same so the

I guess you know it's really like little things like subtle things that you do on set that makes it look different

I guess but yeah I use standard stuff like you know for sex and light muds and always carry titans and heliases

but I always carry tungsten sources because I like tungsten do you now this is something that's been brought up a lot. Do you use tungsten specifically for lighting people as keys, or is that just kind of like, hey, we need a lot of power over here, whatever?

If I really have to use HMI, I do if I need power, I use them for that, like, accent in the background, like, I need to lake the, you know, the building or something. And what's what I do to HMI, bounce, diffuse. It's just, I don't know, I don't really like the way. the skin looks or just a feeling on the people's face so I tend to use time stone for that and I know that digital is very sensitive

but I still I like to light a lot and then it's not that I like you might as well it's because it's digital it's too sensitive because I don't want that much details in the shadows and in order for me to lose some details so that have a punch

a shadow I actually have to light like crazy and like it's like a phantom

shoot and then like ND it down like 1.2 or something or

or more even if they indoors and then production might be like why do

you need all this like an array of 20 Ks and then well

because I need to you know because if I shot wide open with ambient there will be too much

details in the shadow and I have no contrast so that's something I mean, if it's the look you're after, the natural list, it's just a natural light,

and then you can't really control the shadow details, fine. But it's actually very tricky. Yeah, I end up using bigger lights shooting digital. When I shoot on film, I don't have to, you know, these stuff, like, trying to punch 100K so I can crush the shadows, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you kind of have to, with film, I shoot, I shot 16mm in films, but I still shoot, you know, film photos and unlike medium format.

Yeah. And I, you're right. I have noticed that with digital, you have to create with lighting that toe that naturally comes. Yeah. Yeah. And then with film, I have to fill in the shadows, you know, because if you don't do anything, it's just, it's a, it's a. It's a, I don't know, like a, it's just a crunchy black, and there's nothing, you know, there's no going back. So, yeah.

With digital, are you still a meter person? Phantom on that, yes. But no, when I'm shooting on digital, I tend to use false color on camera. And if I'm just doubting, like, there's something going on, then I would meet just to make sure that what I, I'm seeing or I am seeing on camera match because, you know, sometimes say the sensor might not be in a good shape or, but most of the time I just use false color. Yeah. Yeah. I literally did just buy a ninja just so that I could have the EL zones.

Because I learned like zone system for exposure and false color is great for telling me like, oh, that's that sensor, the sensor just doesn't see it. That's crushed. Like that's dead. But creatively, I'm like, what's purple? I don't think an IRE. Purple just before it was in details. Yeah. Purple's the danger zone.

Yeah, exactly. D.A.T. will come running. Yeah. I'm sure about this one. Yeah, don't worry, there's this highlight there. They'll wear one accent. Yeah. What was it like shooting, euphoria?

Because you guys shot, what, ectochrome on that? Oh, wow. Yeah, that was. That was that was dark-wracking. I bet. Yeah. I also have very little prep because I just finished a film

Konani in New York and then Sam and myself called me and I can't even come to LA and should an episode like really need someone and then I was like, oh my gosh, I'm exhausted from this film in New York, should I go? Just like a month and up. I was like, okay, sure.

Yeah, I'll go. I'll be like, oh. and they're like, yeah, we should have not the figure of extracurals, like, hetachron? They're like, wow, okay, well, that's tough. I'm like, there's not much dynamic range. I can't, I can't fuck up.

And then, I mean, it's all these amazing actors and huge, like, you know, camera moves and sets. And, you know, like, yeah, you have, like, a week to prep. I was like, okay, brilliant. Let's, uh, let's, let's rock and roll. And then I, I just did, like, a day of testing just to make this, for me to land the limitation of the stock.

So I did the over and under test, you know, like three or four stops over, three or four stops under, and they learned that if you're not spot on, you're fucked. Yeah. So that was a really good,

you know, like a data test was like, okay, cool, all right, so I can't fuck up. And then, you know, Schovence on the day one, it's like this huge sequence with Sydney. Oh, Sini Sweeney in her house, and then we literally start from the outside in the garden, then we go into the kitchen, then they go down to the den, and we track across the house,

and then we end up in the living around there. It was like, great, ectochrome, let's go. I could just give me like half the night this year. I know, and I came up, like, beautiful, I was like, day one, so the Russians, like, wow, this stock is so special that it's just like, sees, I don't know, it sees the world the way you can't see it. You just need to know how to expose it.

I'm light for that. But yeah, I love the challenge was, you know, and Sam Levinson, he's just, he's just got amazing visual eye. So I really enjoyed working with them. Yeah, you said he could be a DP himself, eh? Yeah, yeah.

I think he's got great eye. You know, I think what he said about in the performance, And then the cinematography and dancing the performance, it was like, you know, if the lighting is not how it should be, the performance is half as good. And, you know, I could kind of resonate with that, that this kind of, you know, the show, euphoria, because it's, you know, it's very visual. And it does help enhance the moments, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I imagine your experience shooting music videos helped because, you know, if you stuck me, I mostly shoot documentaries.

this point are like corporate and i if someone was like all right we're going to go full color have a ball i'd be like i don't i don't know how yeah yeah i think the music video kind of muscle does help you know you kind of rock and roll on the up or challenge with very little time on resources well you know on on euphoria we have great resources but timing is always uh enemy on set yeah yeah yeah yeah you guys really did like set the world on fire with that like it's rare to hear people talk about cinematography like culturally you know every once in a while you know i live in l.a so you know movie nerds are always going to talk about it but to have like essays written about the cinematography of euphoria that must have been kind of gratifying to be a

part of oh wow i didn't know if people wrote me essay about it i mean oh tons yeah especially on youtube I mean, that's hass off to myself, you know, once I was on sound. They just did a beautiful job and look forward to seeing what they're going to do next, you know, with the new season. Yeah. On the topic of like, well, what is, this is dumb, again, tech nerd question, but what is the dynamic range of, is it like six stops? I think if you're off six stops, you're fucked. Yeah. I mean, I did the, when I did the, you know, over and under test, I think I did four stops.

And like two and a half, there's no details left in the highlight. Wow. I mean, if you're two and a half under, it's just very unexposed. So you really have to be spot on. And, you know, you need a lot more fill than you think in the shadows. We would joke that it looks like soap opera on set. because we would like have to light so much like highlight undershadow like

the ratio is very like it's not that contrasty but then once you process in the days there's a lot of contrast on there that it's you know the shadows are heavier so you know yeah it's not one of those like a Vision 3 where you can kind of rock and roll and then it will come out looking amazing yeah yeah yeah

What's the experience like shooting, you know, because I think my current understanding of it is like you've got your Vision 3, which is like made to be scanned and stuff. And then you've got something like the Alexa 65, which has just so much details, or even the A35. But just that massive sensor does seem to gather a lot more, like it'll let you kind of light a little more naturally, I suppose. The experience of shooting on the Alexa? The 65 specifically. Oh yeah, I've only shot the big one When it was popular Before we realized it's just too big

I'm headed Now they got a little one I remember doing a handheld on 65 And I was like, just get this camera off me right now After every take I was like, it's going to break my back But now, yes, I'm so glad that the little one's coming out So I'm looking forward to testing

The new Alexa 65 But Alexa 35 on the other hand And I love it. I've been shooting on Alexa 35 from most of the projects this past year when she came out because I tested, I used to shoot only a lap a lot, but then it doesn't retain highlight

as well as Alex 35 does. And it's almost impossible to blow highlight with Alex 35, which, you know, can be challenging if, say, you want, you know, set build in a studio and then you need to blow highlight on the window. But, you know,

that can become a challenge. But, yeah, I mean, it's great. I love shooting on the, you know, 35 and having those, you know, the details. Yeah. I remember in an interview you did, you were talking about how, you know,

you learned all the technical stuff at one point. And then, you know, that's kind of day one page one. I was wondering if you had mentioned, and, you know, all the gear is always the same. Does that kind of free you up to only focus on the creativity? Kind of going back, I feel like there was a lot of options there in the middle after film, you know, for like digital, everything, lighting, whatever. And now it's kind of gone back to like, eh, three, four choices.

It's, you know. Yeah, I guess it's kind of similar in the way that everyone's shooting film and now everyone's shooting on X35 or Venice. And, you know, so that, yeah, that allow you to have the room. room to, you know, to concentrate on maybe like lensing or the lighting or, you know, yeah. So you have a bit more creative mind space saved for other things. The important stuff. The important stuff.

Yeah, rather than worrying about, do you have 20 feet left in the mind? Okay. Yeah. Salis setting camera reload in two minutes. kind of yeah yeah you know

I know you've shot with Bradford young and I was wondering what what did you learn from him because obviously

he's very accomplished EP I think everyone universally loves his eye what are some of those maybe conversations you had

with him that taught you some stuff he's he's such a great director I really loved working with him

he has this kind of spiritual, philosophical way of talking about things. So I love listening to him talk. I mean, we did commercial, so it's not like we went deep into the narrative of the commercials. And we would talk about what the scene is on the lensing for that commercial was that we wanted to use white lens. so he would pretty much

he was like 27, 20 and 37 Mel and so that and the he has a really good playlist so I remember

so he always has really good music playing on set and they're pretty good music he'll come with the big speakers I mean

production or make sure there's big speakers and I think because he cares about like the energy of

people on set and you know those great energy creates something good or you know the vibe is very important and he's such a great curator of the he's a vibe master so I love working with him and whenever I keep bumping into him in different cities like with Milan LA London that we somehow end up in the same cities and then every time we bump into the chat it's just a you know it's a great vibe you know now you know yeah yeah is he actively djing while directing or does he have some is it just playing well he's he's just he's just got great playlist uh you know what i think he did have a mic before that at some point um he was i think he might have been kind

like emceeing you know nice it was it was it was the right moment for the for that scene that we were shooting yeah yeah it does just looking at your like resume basically it does seem like a lot of very creative people. And obviously, you know, everyone in those industries created, but I mean like, obviously Rachel, him, Taylor Swift, whoever, they seem to come to you. I imagine, obviously you're talented, but like I imagine a lot of that does have to do with the way you interact with people. And I was wondering if you have an insight as to what others can do to attract more creative people and less, I don't know, annoying people. well i mean we when we're starting out you know and grinding it's we take everything we can right

and as you progress in your career you start to curate and you start to realize what kind of people you want to work with and you know i'd work with assholes and in before and that wasn't for me you know i don't want people to feel like terrified so you know you know I want people to create things from because they want to create something with me, you know. So it's, you know, early on in my career, you start to, you know, pick the people you want to hang out with. I mean, pick the people you want to grow with, you know. So, and you have a taste and tendency that the things that you tend to gravitate towards. And for me, it was one of the people I worked with when I was coming up, like, FK, Twigs.

Like, I love working with Twigs. You know, she's such a great artist who keep evolving. And all the directors that I work with, they tend to have the values that they represent or the kind of projects that they make that I feel like, you know, Like, I can kind of, well, I want to shoot their projects. You know, I just gravitate towards certain, like, aesthetics or the subject matter that make the films about all the music videos. And that's, I think, you know, yeah, pick the people you want to grow with. So that's, you know, I think that definitely helps in the beginning.

Yeah. Because, yeah, that's certainly the hard part, right? when you don't have gigs coming in and you're like, yeah, I'll take it. Yeah, but then you're going to be proactive, you know, it's, I used to just try and make the projects happen. I was kind of

like a producer almost, that you know, if there's a music video, you're kind of half-producing or short films as a DP because you tend to be the most experienced of us and you help them produce the film and you try to navigate

you know, towards something that you can be proud of and, you know, don't wait around, you know, I mean, I guess I do wait around for good scripts, but I can't write good scripts, but you can still be proactive and kind of maybe meeting people

or making a project happen, you know. You know, so when you've certainly done more music videos and commercials than narrative, but when did you finally feel comfortable kind of leaning more, into narrative, you know, where it didn't have to be a paycheck where you know, oh, it's going to be a little harder.

It's, you know, maybe the budget isn't as good or whatever. Yeah, I'd actually start the narrative. I would use the shit, like, a lot of short films. But short films are really hard because there's basically no funding and it runs a newbie. So it's a lot of work. And also back then it's pre-vemail or YouTube.

So they would have to go through the festival circuit. So you'll have to wait a year or two for the film to come out. Like, the career pathwise, it just doesn't make sense to me. I did, like, a math in my head. I can't be waiting for this film to come out in two years' time. So it was one of the reasons why I started shooting music videos because you'll shoot a video on it out in two weeks or sometimes a week or, you know, maybe like three days.

Sometimes, you know, you have a greatest schedule. That definitely propelled, like, the speed of, you know, kind of showcasing my work. So that was kind of my little career planned, okay, I should do music videos because I meet people quicker that way. So that was like the beginning. And then I got busy in music videos and commercials world.

Then at some point my age, I was like, you should start shooting narrative again. I'm like, oh, I guess I should. Because it's bizarre, But then, I don't know, maybe it's less and less now, but you are labeled as commercial DP or you are narrative DP, even though I think that those two things could cross. So I started shooting TV shows to showcase to the grown-ups that,

yes, I can handle a 60-day shoot, and I can organize and manage my crew for extended period of time. time. And so I did that. And then, you know, we go into filmmaking because we want, we loved watching movies growing up only. I wanted to make movies. So I'd always wanted to make movies. But again, because people saw me as a commercial DEP, I had to start from TV shows first, then into film, uh, films. So yeah, I mean, luckily I got in there, but, you know, some of my DP friends who mainly shoot commercials, like we do have a composition where they won't break into narrative

but they can't like how, but I do that and then like you still have to start with maybe small movies and that's how you get in and it's like I guess when I was shooting indie music video it's just very, very hard but we gotta start from the bottom up. Yeah, it's like one of those things

you know, I know plenty of DPs who you know, whatever got started in horror films and they're like, yeah, but I really actually love romantic comedies, and they're, like, hiring you for that, buddy. I feel you, but, you know, it's a journey, you know, I, because I think every time I do a project, then it doesn't necessarily look like the way, like, I want it to look, or, you know, I try to think of it as it doesn't define me as an artist. It's more

You know It's not a stepping stone But it's steps Right And then one day I'll get to make them Maybe right Carol Right

But John Haynes Edmund So beautiful So So It's also like I think we keep Making movies

And keep You know Making new projects Because I don't know I just I'll keep trying I was like

Okay Next one It's gonna be the one Kind of Yeah Well to me It's always felt like a I guess like a practice you know like every every show every whatever every project

you learn something and that informs whatever your main your end quote unquote end goal is because I've heard plenty of stories from you know people win Oscars and they're like and nothing changed you know like this was nothing but I you know it's like everything kind of leads okay next time if whenever I do get that final you know when I get to shoot the matrix I'll you know yeah that's the thing I'll use well that's I mean that's a good point like I when I was a baby DP the projects I got to shoot so far

and the projects I'm shooting now I would have never dreamt of you know doing as a may straight out of film school if they told me that you'd be shooting this in 10 years time and be like get out of here you know like oh you know all I want is like

maybe like a DP and then make enough living so I can pay my rent this that's all what I want but then you know Well, it's, yeah, you never know. Yeah, I saw that you, one thing that kind of kicked off, you're wanting to be a deep, he was watching a behind-the-scenes featureette after a sci-fi film. First of all, what was that film? And also, was the featurette on television, or was it like a special feature?

It's DVD. I come from, like, my dad would watch movies on BHS. He was really into watch movies in the evening. so I would tag along to the video store and he would rent all these movies and I'd just sit next to them and watch their godfather and I would call them as a really loud films he liked watching loud movies

with guns and like cowboys and I didn't necessarily enjoy them but I liked to watch movies and yeah so that's a sci-fi movie I think I found out what it was, I need to watch it again there was DVD and I watched the movie which I thought it was okay

but then it had like like a, you know, feature bonus. And I was like, oh, it's just, I think it was also like a new thing, type a bonus clip. Yeah, yeah. And then I started watching it. And I was like, what the hell? It's like, these creatures are people inside?

I was a kid. So I was like mind blonde. And then seeing all this people with like machinery's around them. And now I know there's just like a sea stand. Right, right. diffusion and the haze and everything. I was just like, the mind world was like,

wow, this is how you make movies? It's crazy. And they just changed my world. And I started making my own, like I was stop motion animation. That was. No,

the only reason I bring it up is because it was exactly the same for me. I remember at the end of the liar, liar VHS tape, there was a, there was a, outtakes real. And I was like, that's interesting because they,

at the end of the VHS tape is just credit. and then it turns off. Or it auto rewinds if you have a fancy BCC. And then, yeah, literally when DVDs came, it was like The Matrix and like a few other like early 2000s films where they had those special features. I was like, this is how we made it. I was like, you're telling me you can make these.

Like Kevin Smith too, he was real good at having BTS stuff. Well, I still love watching BTS. Like I walk on set while I still like watching behind the scenes. I truly think like Disney's getting better at it. But, like, I, you know, this whole shelf is all Blu-rays and stuff. And, like, aside from Criterion, like, a lot of the special features on really cool movies are, like, ads. Not like, not like, not like commercials, but, you know, it doesn't, we're not learning anything. It's like, we're doing it.

It's like, oh, yeah, it was really great working with it. And I'm like, come on, give us the, you used to be able to do this. Well, I guess it's all, you know, not DVDs anymore. So there's more behind the scenes, bonus features. It's all Netflix, Amazon, and, you know. Just click on the projects, that's it. Well, the one that I've been pitching for a while now is it has to be easy to, you know, how you can choose languages, you know, English, Spanish, Japanese, whatever. There should be director's commentary.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Right? Because, like, that's, MP3 is only this big. It's not going to take up server space. That's a really good one. I think, wait, there was something, I can't remember I watch, but there was, maybe it was just on YouTube, the director. the commenting like talking over the movie

that was very interesting yeah yeah there's a few YouTube channels that'll rip the commentaries off of movies and I'll play on both of them if I don't on it but you know I watched the fire inside like end in November actually you know what it was

it was right after the pandemic sorry no sorry sorry sorry right after the election oh okay I don't know what kind of led you in but no one in the theater was in a great mood And it kind of, you know, it certainly made the film feel more immediate, you know, for a film that's being, that that's about, you know, the early 2000s. Like, it's, it's kind of brought, you're like, wow, we still haven't changed any of that, have we? Yeah. Yeah, I hope it was at least uplifting.

It's certainly. And, you know, I walked out of that theater, you know, it's winter in L.A. So the sun was already far enough down. but it was certain it took a few beers to think about you know um thanks for watching it it was great yeah they they gave me tons of options to see it too so luckily i didn't miss a lot of times they'll be like you can it's one theater across town you know this one's right next me was very nice but i'm glad they got to see it in the theater also yeah because you guys have been working on this for a while right yeah rachel tried to make like she's been

on this project for at least five years because they went into production just before the pandemic and they got shut down and then I think they spent a couple of years trying to bring the project back and then we finally made it two and a half years ago and now it's finally out so it's a half a decade effort I guess if he include very lighten researching and writing the script it's probably longer than five years yeah so I'd seen you guys talk about how the prep phase

was actually pretty difficult I was wondering if you could walk through why that was I think it's because

we have so many locations on set builds very little time and many boxing fights

and yeah it's just a classic not enough time and money for what we're trying to achieve that is

that is why and I think we have I can't quite recall but we had many logistical challenges and the prep was very intense because it's funny because it's like the movie takes five years to get off the ground and then you're given how much time for prep

probably spent a month or not I can't remember maybe eight to ten weeks prepping yeah that's not a lot yeah I guess it's standard for this kind of Maybe that you spent 10 weeks preparing and, you know, intensely shoot for, you know, 30 to 50 days. I was talking to Eric Mezershmidt a while ago and he had said that, and I guess this makes total sense. I just, me, I love, you know, being on set and stuff.

And I obviously don't shoot mutual motion pictures. So I don't get the same experience that he does or you do. But he was saying that like if it, if it was up to, I'm paraphrasing. but if it was he was basically saying if it was up to him he would just only do prep because that's fun you get to dream and then you get on set and immediately it's just compromise

just non-stop I actually know I actually me and Rachel we agree I guess other depies like Robbie Ryan and some other deepies we all don't like prep I don't like prep I mean

I need so we need some time to prep for sure I need enough time to get to another film and so I'll logistical things and break down the film and the shot list and all that but towards the end of the prep it's all kind of spent talking about the problems that we cannot solve until we're on set

what if this happens what if there's a lot of what if and I know we need to talk about it but me and Rachel towards the end of the prep were like can we go shoot now like can we get out of here yet and we're not very good at sitting still so to go in a 9 to 5 I mean

we was doing 10-12-hour prep, so it was longer than that. But to go to the production office every day, through so many Zoom meetings back-to-back, you know, staring at the screen rather than making a movie, towards the end, we're like, we need to get out of there and start making this movie. But I think every single project feels like that was the end of the prep. That's when you know that you're ready.

So I think you need to get there. Because the beginning of the prep, you do feel like, you know, just so much information. And you're trying to take it in and they're trying to, you know, settle into it. You know, so you can dream about what you want to do. And then your dreams are crashed and then you're ready to shoot it. Right. Yeah. So when working, like, you know, we already mentioned Bradford,

but like when working with him or in this case, Rachel, like, obviously she's an incredible DP. But this is your job now. You know, in what ways was she collaborative in the sense of she was kind of being a DP herself? I know she operated on the film. And what ways was she like, hey, this is you. I'm going to go focus on this other stuff. It really didn't feel like I was working with the DP.

You know, she had directors, you know, directors had on the, I would break down the movie like with any other directors in prep. You know, it's shortlisted. And the only time we felt like. I'm talking to the DEP is when I talk about technical details or the technical stuff that I'm going to do. And I don't have to explain why, you know, she will get it. I'll be like, or she wouldn't know if she looks that way, I need to spend 45 minutes moving the key light. Right, right. So we would block down.

We would give up as a lot of freedom. But then both of us will spot what's going to really put us behind schedule. we're like maybe like stun here but I mean if it doesn't kill the story you know

if absolutely we have to look that way then and we knew that that was right for the scene we would do that but

if he had options then she would know why we can't look that way because all my nights over there that kind of stuff and that was useful

but yeah she was great with actors and she was I just, you know, how much of spending all high energy to be the barrister rather than, you know, micro-managing department. Right. Well, I imagine for her, well, maybe not. In my head, it'd be kind of hard to let go of that muscle, you know, that thing you've trained for so long to be a DP to just be like, okay.

You know, because in my head, if I was directing and things got difficult, I would start to focus on the things that I'm trained on, which would be DEPing, you know, it'd start to gravitate the other way. Yeah. I mean, she did operate on some of the emotional scenes. And she asked me in prep, it was okay if she could operate sometimes. And I don't know issues because I've worked with doctors who like to operate. And, you know, she said there's just something that she can't let go. Sure.

And I understand that because I do, you know, if I want to operate, it tends to be a handheld scene. Because it's just such a best role, you know, you in the moment. with actors and, you know, there's something that you can't let go then I get it. I don't mind directors operating as long as they're good at it.

I've found directors before where all the films are crooked and I have to help them fix it. But, you know, sometimes it's just like all the cameras that's okay, you know, yeah. And again, I saw it like, you know, two months ago,

so my memory is a little fuzzy. But my recollection was that the look kind of changes throughout the film. Like it starts off pretty, like, gritty and simple, I suppose. And then especially when we start getting into like the Olympics and stuff like that, it really starts to polish up. And I was wondering, and I don't mean polish in a good way. I just mean stuff changes, you know. And I was wondering if you could kind of walk me through, A, if that was the case,

and B, kind of what the thought process was there. I think it came from the script and the script. narrative then naturally where she started was prettier and you know it's this boxing gym the local boxing gym and then she gets to travel abroad and then onto the Olympics so the the scale and the maybe the slick look and all that that came from her progression as a boxer so it wasn't like we were forcing like we got we got a you know stagrity and then we can slick that was more it was more we were trying to be period accurate

and an authenticity of where she came from and the journey that she took on as a boxer of becoming the gold med list. Yeah, because in, I think it was your ASC clubhouse conversation. Rachel had mentioned

something along the lines, which made me go we which was like, we're starting with sodium vapor because that's Flint and then in China at that time, you know, there's a lot more LED technology. That made more sense. That made more sense for the period. And I was like, that's cool. Like, that's a neat way to delineate the two spaces, you know.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, that came from, you know, the bias, just researching what they had back then. And, yes, Shanghai, China, they had been more advanced, like LED technologies compared to where she came from in Flint at the time to 2012 Olympics, where, you know, it's very subtle and you probably wouldn't notice, but the things still, you know, we have to source and find whatever they were using back in 2012. It's low-key, hard, because it's only 10 years ago. Right.

It's not like, I don't know, the technologies move on. For example, if you try to get red one now, it would be very hard. The red one that works. It was kind of like that, let's say, trying to find a broadcast camera that they were using for 2012 for us to use. the film actually like you know those cameras were faced out and no one kept them because they would only keep like a super retro camera tv broadcast cameras i guess will win we use you know for like 50s or 70s um so yeah that was uh it turned up to be quite tricky um but yeah so talk to me about lighting there weren't any like lens changes throughout

the same lens as the whole thing yeah i've done that for other projects like So, yeah, it makes, like, anamorphic and spherical. But this one, yeah, we pretty much used to, yeah, Panas bees the old time. Then we carried some H-Series, but as we started to shoot the movie, realized the H-Series was just too extreme. So we would stick to PANASBs. So talk to me about, like, how you lit, for instance, the house, both houses I suppose

and then how that maybe changed to the gym and then obviously ultimately the higher end boxing areas I know Rachel mentioned that at a certain point it kind of turned into a Marvel film

and I was wondering if you could expand on that yeah I quite like the look of the gym because I tend to gravitate to something looking a bit more gritty so I like to fluorescent look Rachel was referring to the Marvel movie as then because we were shooting during the summer for winter

so we had to have four these blue screens outside the windows and that gym basically had almost like the windows 270 to 90 maybe they're all quite big windows so there was blue screens all around and then we had to block the sun and push the cold ambient light and all the car stuff or anything that's supposed to be winter it's blue screen screen and we have to shoot the plates separately.

And so that's, yeah, yeah. Crowd replacement, I imagine. Yeah, crowd dupe, of course. And, you know, my, my task was to keep the audience's seats dark enough. So it's not, you know, to live for them to dupe later. And, you know, that, yeah, those are the challenges in terms of the marvel of it all. Well, because you don't notice, I mean, like, there's a lot, you know, there's a lot to be said of people going like, oh, I hate VFX, but it's always like, no, you like that. You don't like bad VFX, which I think is fair. But that's usually a time and money can spend not like an artist problem. But, you know, watching this film, you don't see that. You don't see that there's replacements happening everywhere. And it's really well done. Yeah. It's like the snow is VFX. And, you know, they did a great job with the crowd due because, you know, you know, A lot of the time we need to crowd duplication, they don't want us to move the camera,

but this was, we wouldn't have had the movie if we couldn't move the camera for boxing movie during, you know, we're like, I'm sorry, but we're going to have to, like, you know, we're going to be handheld, guys, like 270 all over. So, you know, compromise was that I'd have to keep the audience's seats dark enough that they can do something later, rather than, you know, yeah. So luckily they did a great. job with a communication yeah so what were uh just because i basically want to steal your style uh what was the uh uh kind of lighting setup for um it wasn't a brian tyrie henry

henry that his name yeah yeah i love that dude forgot his name uh but he's he's great and everything oh bt h yeah he's he's a king he's amazing yeah uh but like so lighting his house there's a lot of like great exterior stuff obviously that sody vapor play Um, but everything looks still has a lot of contrast, but still feels very soft. And, uh, I was just kind of wondering if you could walk me through some of the maybe setups for, for his like kitchen, for instance. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, it was, like you said, we were pushing the lights through the windows a lot. And I did make like the, like the trap, it's not a trap door, but, um, the ceiling that I can pop out. So I had soft boxes. over each room, I say one in the living room, and then I had a soft box over the kitchen. Because that was a set? Yeah, it was a set build. Yeah.

So that, you know, that provided enough ambient. And then I would try and add a splash of color through the windows or a little contrast. Yeah. Yeah, because I remember, too, like, when she's in her, like, basement or whatever. in the bedroom yeah yeah like they're like sitting on some stairs and it's yeah yeah that yeah that's today's bedroom yeah yeah and it's that was also said build yeah because it looks again doesn't look like it and it just looks like it's lit through the windows and that's it was that it or did you have fixtures inside as well that room i had no ceiling because hey you know you know when i was

building ceiling is very expensive yeah it's always i always kind of want ceiling because i like low angle but you know sometimes they get just a triangle and hide the corners um oh sure yeah yeah but that's uh what i think i had no ceiling so yeah there was no ceiling um i also don't recall adding a soft box because i wanted to light through the windows so yeah i mainly look through the windows for that one because i wanted it to feel like it's it's basically and naturalistic and rather than having this, you know, that big softbox coming from the ceiling, yeah. Yeah. Were there any sort of particular challenges that come to mind that you really enjoyed solving?

I know the big oneer has been mentioned a handful of times, but. Yeah. Oh, I mean, it's problem solving every minute and every day on set, so I don't know which one I should. mention because I think we've talked about most of it but I think it's like keeping the right balance of making sure that the actors are lit well but not making it look like a glossy Hollywood maybe I'll do it at one point in my career but it still has like a commercial movie aesthetic but I still wanted to retain some sort of kind of

tactile indie feeling so what do you mean by that like when you say like oh we don't want it to look glossy or we don't want to you know we want to have a Hollywood aesthetic but still keep it grounded like what do you

actually doing to achieve that because I think a lot of people listening might intrinsically know that but not know what it means to actually execute that I mean that there's maybe there's a lot more ambient

and Phil you can see more you know and it's like you know and then I think in and actors are lit well but and I say glossy

it's like we say when I do a beauty commercial or like a perfume high end whatever beauty and I would have special light for the face that tends to be like a big light for the face you know it it glows

you know it draws your attention to the beauty of this person rather than the actors being in this, you know, this environment or, you know, it needs to, for me,

it needed to feel like they live there rather than they're there and now we bring the beauty lights so they stand up. Right, right. You know, sometimes that's the right movie if you're making like a glossy

that movie about beauty then, yes, that's the right. holiday films. Yeah, yeah, maybe, a lot of holiday films are very pretty,

you know? Oh, yeah, very pronounced bouquets, and then there's no def the field or, you know, that looks like you're shot on 5D

books and, yeah. The 5D, that's such a funny reference, too, because it's like, we have an LF, we don't,

it doesn't look like that. The 5D looked weird. Yeah, 5D, you know, F, FD, 50, whatever.

One, 1.2. Exactly those bouquets and then somehow looks like the actors are comps. That's just, you know, that's not the aesthetic that we were going for. And yes, some projects, it's the right kind of look for that. But yeah, this one, yeah. And it's also, yeah, it's not like the visual that I gravitate towards. And Rachel does have naturalistic,

it tend, you know, the preference for the things to look more, like naturalistic doesn't make more realistic and that's what we're trying to do rather than say you know expressionistic not fair to look that would have been not quite right for this movie yeah sure what were some of the things that you learned from rachel because obviously she's directing you but i imagine there had to have been certain conversations about your art I think I learned something from Every project I do it doesn't have to be a movie Or good or bad

But just being a laughter It's such a vulnerable thing to do And you know It's because it's on you And you're out there saying I mean You're not saying But you did it

And you're the rest of it And it's a lot of pressure Right It's something like you'll never dream of doing you know but Rachel I killed it like a boss you know

she's a boss lady and you know she did it with like very gracefully and with good values you know you could I don't know

the pressure and the insecurity that could being on set bring out the the worst side of you sure

you know you could become the worst version of yourself working on set and there's something you learn, you know, through like 10, 20 years of being on set. It's like therapy.

It's like you get to know yourself so much more working on set under pressure than just, I don't know, I'm leaving your life going to yoga classes and meditating. Right. So, I mean, you know, Rachel is just a great human. Like, you know, I love it on and offsen and I guess why I learned from it. Oh, I don't know Hmm Most

Hmm Most the way around from Rachel So much You don't have to sleep so much To perform well Okay I think it's the more like Rachel thing

She would sleep like four hours a day And then She would just be like Bossing it Killing it All day And it was like An joke

That I was called Power Naps because I need power nap on set because I'm not going to know any project that I go shut my eyes for 15 minutes on lunch break oftentimes people want to talk about schedule or something I wouldn't be like you know guys I just need 50 I have a fresh brain

and I can perform well after lunch so they just call me like where's power nap and then there's Rina is having a power nap during lunch but then, you know, which you'll be like, you know, killing it four hours deep. You know, that's funny. You mentioned lunch. That was when I knew that I was finally on sets that had a budget is when in the morning,

someone would be like, hey, here's a bunch of, like, healthy options that aren't pizza or whatever. Tell us what you want. I'm like, I'm going to survive lunch? Cool. Yeah, we have lunch break. Yeah, they'll get penalties if you don't break. Well, not just the break, but just like, because other one, you know, on the cheaper shit, They're like, hey, someone's going to go to get pizza or like Chipotle or whatever, and then you immediately crash.

Oh, yes, yes. That's it. Or in the UK, it will be like, none of those or Premon J. Right. Yeah, Greg's sausage rolls for everyone. Well, I learned to feed myself on sets when they don't have good food. That's another skill of surviving a DOP. Yeah.

That's so funny. The, uh, I had one other, I had a thought there. there was another thought but then I got oh yeah in terms of you know dreaming in in prep and all that Rachel had mentioned

that you guys basically cut all the nice to haves so that you could just get down to the actual like bare bones of shooting the thing and getting it done and yeah what were those nice to haves that like you would you know if you were given a budget more time that you think would have actually helped because I think the movie exists

perfectly as is, but like in your guys' head, like, what would have put it over the top? I'm trying to recall there was a scene, I think I just remember the scene that we saved, but that was an airplane

that we thought we had to cut when she was flying. Or the turbulence freaks her out? Yeah, we managed to bring it back towards the very end of the principal photography because we managed to save some money. So that That was one of the babies that Rachel wanted to save.

So I was happy that we could afford that. Others, I can't recall, because I tend to move on from bad memories, pretty good thing. Right. So I think I've already erased stuff on my mind. Right. There was some, I think, maybe sets of scenes that really wanted to shoot where we just couldn't fit in. I think, yeah, those all the ones till we got to let go. But, you know, like you said, you know, things always.

work out in the end and I couldn't imagine movie getting being any longer than it is now and you know I think it has the things we needed to tell the story yeah are you working on anything now or just full holidays uh I was doing a lot of commercials there might be a movie that I do next year but taking it easy you know

it comes when it comes and uh yeah awesome well I I look forward to that and uh if it does end up happening. I'd love to have you back on to chat about it. Yeah. This is fantastic. The time flew by. Oh, thank you. It's always weird to look at the clock and be like, that was 45 minutes. I got, we got to start pivoting.

So good. No problem. That was really nice. Thank you so much. Yeah, like I said, please come back anytime. Great. Thank you so much. Have a great holiday. You too. Take care. Bye. Frame and Reference is an Albot production produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so by going to frame and refpod.com and clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated, and as always, thanks for listening.