Frame & Reference Podcast - 177: "A Complete Unknown" Cinematographer Phedon Papamichael, ASC GSC

Episode Date: February 20, 2025

Today I'm over the moon to be talking with Phedon Papamichael about his work on the Bob Dylan biopic "A Complete Unknown". Phedon really made sure we got as much info as we could in the time we had so I'm positive you're gonna love this one. Enjoy! F&R Online ► https://www.frameandrefpod.com Support F&R ► https://www.patreon.com/FrameAndRefPod Watch this Podcast ► https://www.YouTube.com/@FrameAndReference Produced by Kenny McMillan Website ► https://www.kennymcmillan.com Instagram ► https://www.instagram.com/kwmcmillan

Hello, and welcome to this episode 177 of frame and reference. You're about to drop into a conversation between me, Kenny McMillan, and my guest, Faden Papa Michael, DP of A Complete Unknown. Enjoy. I've watched most of the contenders, and then I was at Cameramage this year, so I got to see some films that haven't made it here as part of the international films. And, you know, the girl with a needle is now projected in Poland and Milla Perez and Anora saw at the Nourad on film projected and Conclave. Yeah. Yeah, it seems to be a pretty good year. I mean, the, Nora's getting a criterion released, like, off-rip. It's like tomorrow. They're like, yeah, we're, wait, wait, wait, we have it on Blu-ray already.

Yeah. Yeah, so, and then, yeah, our film, I guess, is also a complete unknown. I guess it's now on IMAX also. I don't know if we'll make film prints, but, you know, we had that analog intermediate, where we went negative. and that was kind of an interesting process but i'm not sure if search light is they're planning on any film prints it's always nice to um showed it that this uh somewhere where they have a film projector yeah uh yeah we've we've created a pretty nice film texture feel by going to i mean not just through emulating it uh in the di but actually this this was very

really fun going to a negative, you know, lasering out to 52 or 3 stock and picking about all the film qualities, because it's not just grain, it's a whole bunch of stuff that comes in, you know, it's hard to really point out exactly how it reacts, but it definitely reacts to on the negative differently to what you set on the DIY. But, you know, all your color correction settings and everything is already baked in, so the negative gets. exposed with all your corrections, all your windows, all your saturation, your contrast. But then it still does, it's alive, you know, it does different things on films. You know, some colors reacts like a different, picking up a little bit of projective, remove,

and dirt, which, you know, they spend time removing, but I'm like, do we need to remove it? I mean, it's not like, you know, the fake Super 8 app. Right, right. It was very, very satisfying to do this process, you know, because when it first came up when we tested it and I was exploring lots, you know, based on references and photos from the 60s and street photographers and really trying to fine tune into this Kodachrome aesthetic with the saturation and the contrast and actually not that much latitude on those film stock. at all um it was nice uh you know that david cole and being at photocem which of course has a lab and you know offering that up and because i've also had other colorists sort of give them i gave them references at movies like french connection conversation and things like that and just like try to they all came up with amazing lots and that we were going to work with on set and you know keep through that post because it's always important that editorial and director keeps keeps you know the image in front of them that is close to the final product it's very important so then when you hit the di-i stage you're not you know reinventing everything and and sending people in that

amic but that this film emulation was really quite beautiful and just a right amount of grain you know because i was talking to ed lachman like even on maria that he shot on film He still used live grain, I think, to add the traditional texture because, you know, the stocks are not quite as grainy as maybe you would want to. And I was talking about hiring some balook or some beetle juice that even scares it. Yeah, he's so great. He's technical also. And I told him about this.

He goes, no, if I don't, you know, that doesn't really work so well because it's when they say start. Like I've been, you know, he was playing with this. idea for years, you know, before I even knew it's possible. I mean, I go, well, we're not doing this one. I say print stock, we're doing like, oh, okay, finally. Because, you know, on Beetlechus, he scanned in 1938 silver nitrate stock, and he loved that degree of grain and texture, you know, But that's like a live grain, you know, they can offer you any, you know, always sperm,

but, you know, they can offer you any kind of stock and you can really have a lot of flexibility. You can really fine tune it in. So, you know, I was quite happy with exactly what that stock gave me. And then they've, their color science at photocem, they've really perfected how to optimize how it goes on an egg. And, you know, they put a lot of ND apparently on the area. or when they film out and I don't know because I guess it's pretty bright and I don't know I'm not I don't know all the I'm not that technical I guess I know the results I you know I see it on a big screen I go that looks great you know I like or I go I don't feel it enough or you know so um but exactly what the do with their color signs and all the little finessing and tricks you know which takes them you years to thank you. I couldn't really explain that to somebody on the podcast.

Sure. Well, and is doing that film out, obviously you get the grain and stuff, but is it mostly textural? Because, you know, obviously you're saying you do the color grade that gets transferred to the negative, but is the negative applying its own kind of grade, essentially? Like, are you having to... Well, that's what I was saying, yeah, it does. you're basically applying your grade that you created in the DIY.

I mean, you're still on Resolve, and you're building your windows and tracking and doing dynamics, and you have all the full tool set. We also work, even in dailies, we emulate grain, so we're already like accustomed and editorial and director already seeing, and the studios, you know, already seeing something that's emulating. The grain. So when we did the early tests, we did do the shift AI, it's called, but AI, again, not to be confused. It's analog. Intermediate. Yeah. So, you know, we do, in the testing, we did go through. And you can even go further than just a negative. You can do an IP. You can do photochemical. You can do treatment. You can do. silver retention in our you can you know they can go to different stocks so you know all of that affects it what we did though in our test for our purposes to compare it and come up with a lot we just went to that particular start 50 it's 50 is a daylight the 52 of 3 kodak negative stock and

then and then use that as a reference so when we emulate it for the purposes of our on-set lot and And for the dailies, that was kind of matching what will happen once we go to film. So, you know, we had it as a reference. Because also when you're in post and you're waiting, you know, you lock in a reel, let's say you lock in real runs through three. And then you do film out. That takes a little bit of time. So your D.I is finished. Your D.I. Time has been officially used up.

Let's say, whatever it is, 100 hours. And then you start filming out, and then you need more time when it comes back to, well, to tweak it. And, you know, we weren't exactly. I mean, I haven't been through this process before. So I didn't really know how much work that will require to adjust from how it comes back from film. But it was really minor. And David Colts done it before. I mean, they did similar things on Dune 2 and on Batman.

I was going to say you should have asked Greg. I did. I did. We did talk in Poland and we did talk about it. But I mean, and David Cole I worked before he did I had to march with me. So, you know, we have

some, it's not like all new for me. And photochem is historically my place because way back in McCormon days in the late 80s. I mean, that's where we did everything, you know, photocem, the motto, So my dear friend and timer, who's now retired, but, you know, we did all our movies there.

So, I mean, I'm still very familiar with timing answer prints. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is still never just to surprise me how simple and permitted it was in a way and how we still timed entire features, like with three answer print passes, just by holding little magenta gels in. and adding, okay, two points of red, two and bring. You know, just now that you have this incredible array of tools, so many options, you know, it also becomes about discipline,

about not overusing it. I mean, I remember the first DIY, it was on Walk the Line, first time Jim and I did one. You know, there was some hesitation, you know, we don't want it to look. I mean, it was starting to switch over to digital projectors and less film projectors. But back then, we would still, after the I, do a film out and release prints.

But I said, you know, don't worry about it. I mean, we can do things, but it doesn't mean that we're like, we have to do everything that they can do, you know. But what we did, for example, on Market Line, we had this Thanksgiving scene out by the lakehouse, and we were forced to shoot it in the summer. It was all lush green tree.

and right and then we just went and I go let's just make him yellow brown like it's fall and and that was you know obviously a perfect use for it for it and things you couldn't do in your answer print and or you know you had to make optical VFX and all that so I mean but yeah I mean so in this case again like we in our we were working towards making it look like film while we're watching the DIY back we're looking at with emulated grain on it and what I was saying is as you start filming out

sometimes you're missing shots because you're still waiting it's quite normal you're waiting for the effect shots for finals to come in and they were like okay well if we don't get those in by Thursday then they're not going to make the film out You know, we also had an accelerated post, you know, the movie was originally, you know, maybe come out in 25, right? And, and so, but we got them all in, but, you know, initially we still had some plugged in, some emulated, and, you know, when you're watching the reel back, they really don't jump out.

So, you know, you can get very close. And I'm saying to David, you know, oh, that looks really good. but you know it's just something it's you feel it and i go well what it like help me identify you know i mean it's it's hard even for him but it's definitely you know look it's it's real film it does react to some colors differently the blacks contrasts i was going to say the highlight curve probably that highlight curve uh you know which is all things you can try and achieve and you're the eye, but yeah, it's just nice when you're not like trying to dial it in and guess it, you know, when you're just getting the real thing.

So I was quite happy with that. And then, you know, and then, of course, the question begs it, so, like, well, okay, why don't you just shoot film? But, you know, for the reasons I mentioned earlier, the film starts, it's quite limited. You're dealing with 400 days a. Yes, you can maybe push it. But you're not necessarily getting the texture you want, even when you shoot on film. And, of course, I'm limited to shooting at lower ASAs, which for this particular movie that had,

I wanted very natural, not-lit environments, like on the night exterior, on the streets, and the village when he's walking around, and I really didn't want to set big condors. I wanted to take advantage of all the period practicals and in the venues in the beginning when he's playing the smaller clubs and just using, you know, all the... I saw, I saw a, you know, behind the scenes video

doing some research and shit. And like, I saw, for the walking scene, you're pretty much just lighting them with a dash. Well, yeah,

I mean, this is what I would do because I had, part of my initial test was because I decided to, I discovered by the Sony, actually it was an FX3 that I was forced to use on a commercial

that I did in, Bulgaria and and you know it had the 12,800 setting. Right. So I played with that and I go wow it looks really good at least on my OLED monitor and on my 20 I mean it looked fine. I go I do want

to test this that this too. So part of that. That's another Greg question. And and so I I shot at native 3200 and

64, 12,000 1,800, not 1,2808. And then we projected it big. I had it, you know, I shot it with my custom build, Panavision anamorphics that Danzazaki built for me with B front elements. And, you know, so I wanted to see all the contrast of the lenses with this. And I actually shot FX3, just as a reference also, and the Venice 2, exactly the same shots with my lighting that would be approximating kind of situations I would have. on the movie and projected it big and I go this

and you know while I was sitting there I go this looks very clean I mean let me see 64 okay you know we had it all broken down the reels and we see the same at 12,800 I mean really kind of irrelevant I mean

again like I I don't do color sands or all of that but I mean like I just look at it and a good projector a big enough screen And I go, this is fine, especially since we're going to go out of film. I don't think any of this barely perceivable noise increase or blacks or maybe, you know, as long as you have contrasty images, it's not a problem anyway. If you don't have a strong highlight or something in the shop and you're a super low light level,

which I was often, for example, the scene at Pete Seeger's cabin when the car pulls up, I mean, that was like pitch black. And because there was some natural fog rolling in, and I had just a couple of vortexes on the ground, just very low illumination. I mean, to the light meter. Just as EO. Yeah, I mean, my specter, the needle doesn't move.

So, you know, those, you know, when I shot him, although I had been the test, and I was happy with the test, I mean, when I shot those scenes, I said, I want to go in and project these. I just want to make sure, and I want to, David, to see them and make sure we're okay with that thin negative, let's say, because it's fine. And if there ever was an issue, you can, of course, the noise before you go to film out, but we never had to do that. Because, you know, then once you go to film out, you're picking up the contrast and the texture of the film, which way overpowers whatever. sort of you would feel like, but again, like I said, I didn't really see any problem even without treating it into the eye. So that was very encouraging and, you know, it gave me the advantage

of 12,800. And the reason for that was because I wanted to shoot at a deeper stock, because as I was researching the film, I was looking at those films, including my own film, a million-dollar a hotel which I shot 800 A, say, 35 millimeter Kodak back then and C-s-year-sand-morph 52-47 or something like that?

You know what? I was trying to think of the number. If you can make it up, I don't know. I don't know. Too old and I can't remember 98? Oh, sure. Sure, sure. 52-98, maybe? Yeah. It was 800. I put, I rated at a thousand because it was anamorphics

and I never shoot them open up before like the C series because they kind of would fall apart pretty quick even at 2 8 and a half but I was looking at that and I go this has it doesn't feel so shallow

like a large format digital sensor you know like sure of anamorphic the quality of the lenses and all that you know on Ford versus Ferrari Of course, we were the first ones to have expanded anamorphics. They were almost prototypes back then, kind of like my lenses on this one, the hybrates that really were created for this movie

with B and C front elements and then T series, rear elements and mechanics, because Dan wanted to give us the very close focus ability, which, you know, Jim and I love to shoot close so physically very close on a wider lens, like a 40 or even 35 anamorphic sometimes. I mean, these numbers don't translate exactly because the 35 is actually,

because he expands him and we would actually relabel what they are. It's a guesstimate. It was like, give me, what is the 40? You know, and then we discover slowly during the shoot that the 50 is actually tighter than the 60 or the same. Right. So we'd relabel and we call it the 37 and the 42. and, you know, because it's, it's, they're prototype.

I mean, they're like serious one-on-ones. But Jim liked the idea because often we've talked about, oh, let's do a deep focus film, you know, let's just shoot like a more adept of field. And I really want it because of the period and the all the textures and the brownstones and the fire escapes. I didn't want that all to go to mush. And while he's walking down the street, I really,

I mean, we do that in general with our protagonist. We shoot these close-ups. We love that aspect ratio, but we want to not isolate him, really. We want to always on stage also when he's performing. You want to feel the people standing in the wings, observing him as we rotate around. I want to see the audience.

I don't want them to be super out of focus. So, you know, I shot all of that stuff in my night exterior is at 8, 11. Yeah. And if I was sometimes 5, 6 and a half, I mean, Jim got so into it and used to us being deep. And he's like, let's stop, I go like five, six and two thirds. Like, he goes, why?

What do I say are young? I'm like $6,400 because if I didn't really need to, I, although I didn't see a significant difference, I just go $6,400. He goes, go $12,000. He says to the IT, go $12,800. Why are you not $1,800? You told me it's, you told me it's fine. I paid for that ISO.

I'm going to use it. Yeah, yeah. You offered it. me, let me have it. And so, okay, go $12,000, okay, okay, $8.11, okay. But it was nice, it's nice because it's still, you know, it's still expanded anamorphic, so it's not like everything is sharp. But, you know, it's, you definitely maintain.

So when he's walking down the street, the scene you mentioned with where I literally just have two electricians and with little C-stand arms and a dash light, the Roscoe dash light with the silicone dome on it, which I liked. rather than little light gear panels or hysterics with a good because you know like he's wearing ray bands also at night so you know because he's really cool he's cool guy he's cool guy he's got motorcycle he's got a lever jacket he's got orange shirt and you know so it's also like the whole saturation the contrast as he transitions from robert's imman to bob dillon like the movie becomes visually it more vibrant and but like as a natural progression as his character

develops as the venues become bigger, the state lights become bigger, the spotlight's become hotter. So there's an arc and our lighting approach from the dim clubs and his first arrival where he comes with his raggedy out there and his cap and his guitar case. And, you know, we shot that early on in the winter

and it was all more muted tones and the clubs, you know, warm and low light. And then as he becomes famous, you know, the picture naturally through wardrobe through production design through the venues being bigger and the lighting dictates it again it's very realistic approach and natural approach to everything but still there's a curves here of like increased color saturation contrast and it's a big it comes kind of naturally with the story and his character development but but on the street yes i had scott sarcommoder we're doing this this particular sequence, it's like right after

it cuts to 1965, he comes out of a club, he walks down the street and we're introducing this whole 65 world with the hippies and the bus and the guy singing opera and he walks up to his motor side. We're doing these little whip pens so it's a static camera and we land on this close-up

and then we track and then we cut to a PV and that transitions back into like ECUs and and you know, I don't know we want to light for each particular setup and it's just like let's use all the street

the actual street lights the doorfront ambiances that spill out so I had left and right like I said two electricians with C-stand these drone lights and I'm riding on a little it's my little wireless dimmer board that's called DMX dash it and it's a 12 channel

a little stator yeah it's great and I can walk with it I can walk next to stay and I can look at the actor. I can also go just take it back into my DIT area, which is always next to gym. Like I never isolate myself in the DAT tent. I always want to have eye contact to director. So it's become kind of our setup is video directors monitors.

So there's only a gym, Stella, the script supervisor, then with a little gap because you don't want to be too close, so they hear everything. but I want to hear everything they say and I want to be able to make eye contact and then it's me and the IT Patrick Sicilian in this case

and then even my big dimmer board operator I have him in eyesight and I don't want him somewhere far away because I have him constantly adjust what is on my little dimmer and actually my Gafford

my Gaffer John Alcantara also has one. We bought two, so we have basically 24 channels available, 12 and 12. So then we talked to our main board operator, Mike, and we say, give me the dashlight that's on the left, give me on channel one, give me the dash light that's walking on the right of camera on channel 6. So it's also like geographically always, because you know, you end up for, I have little Velcro labels with little symbols you know a warm light bulb and you know it's kind of funny

all the little labeling but you know then geographically I always or when I'm on stage I go give me all the vortixes that are hung on stage left on Channel 1 and all of the sky panels like I started this system actually the very first time I did it was on Huntsman

like my David Sinfield my British Gaffer introduced me to this wireless working around with it. Interesting. We did it. David Sinfield also did Indiana Jones with James and I and Jim kind of liked it because, you know, we're doing a lot of blue screen stuff and I'm on an airplane or in a rickshaw but on stage and I'm actually watching the plates play back on a monitor and I'm

reacting, okay, they're going to cut the corner and they're going into full frontal and I'll bring up like my little slider. It's like live mixing. It's like a sun or like shifting between booms. They come around the corner. I'll bring up like a 10K hard light on them and then they go into an alley and I drop in and I just have the sky panels for ambience. So it's quite fun and it keeps me busy since I don't get to operate that much anymore.

They go by faster. But on this, it was very similar. So I mean, just much smaller units, much less light level. which is great because then you know you're still lighting the faces you're still dealing with contrast ratios that you would have it's not like oh i'm not lighting anymore and you know it's still like control actually a lot of it is about taking light away negative fills people walking with floppies and blacks and uh but you know i'm i'm taking advantage of on that scene where he walks down the street i even have ambience in the sky it was pitch black to your eye but just the city ambience off the building is illuminating, you know, the overcast sky. And that's beautiful. You read all that. I'm having these dashlights at like 5%, 10% or, you know, sometimes depending on how he moves

and how he looks, I don't use him at all. They really kind of like standby for when, let's say, pauses or I can shift keys. He looks to it on the ground soar and I can just give him a little something. but often the electricians would come to me alarmed to go it wasn't on the last one I go I know you know but they're still walking with it but it might be off like the entire take in that that's good just stay and I talked to them because the people were maneuvering and hand-holding these lights I mean I'm in communication with them even during the take I go bring it low

low low low okay you know and then I'm take one usually I can't use that as a light rehearsal because we don't really do rehearsals, especially with Timothy, it was always kind of like there's no point. I mean, it's like, it's fun to shoot and take one. Because, you know, you never really in blocking

rehearsals and they just don't bring it the same way. And then you don't, you know, you really only discover what it is when you're actually shooting. So often I kind of discover with the body language, with the head movements, what's an actor, how he's playing it,

and then adjust it, like, so I'll be talking to the guy, go like, Lord, Lord, Lord. I mean, it's quite like the actor can't hear it. And then, okay, hold it there. And then, you know, I'll use it or I don't use it. But I think it's really a great way, and it's really, I feel it's optimized for me, like taking advantage of the digital technology, the new cameras, the old glass. um the film analog uh film intermediate i mean i i feel like it's uh giving me everything i kind of want like if i want something to look like film and i you know if i was doing that on film i mean of course

it's possible i've done 40 features on films yeah but 10 on digital it's more labor intensive yeah and i'm you know it's almost entirely location picture it's it's like 60 days but like 100 locations so we're doing company moves in new york like in kowok and actually in jersey you know like carding pushing the cards around the corner to another street and you know it's not you don't need to pre-light run cable and and you know it's just it's great it's great for directors it's great for perform for the actors you know we can all kind of like and not wait for a lot of, you know, you don't want to get in. Well, and there's not like a fixture in their face or whatever.

You know, it's more if they could get it. Well, also that, you know, even on stage, you know, we did have some stage sets. We had his apartment and, but again, you know, I'm in 12,000 day interior in this apartment. I don't need to, but I'm doing it because I'm also trying to be consistent with our textures. Sure. But, you know, that means instead of hanging, you know, air maxes or, or 360 sky panels, I mean, I'm like, okay, send up a baby on the stand or park and hit the bed and then the whole room is like whatever bounce you're getting off the sheets and it takes care of all there. I mean, I mean, it's great because it's great because the stage is not hot. And the actors don't feel

The actors feel like they're in a much more realistic environment Because there's not a lot of gear on the floor There are not a lot of flags You know So then Timothy comes in And he can explore his space Because he's also

You know Discovering His little kitchen air His coffee machine He doesn't really Hasn't figure out It's not like we come and dictate Here's your mark

And here's this is the blocking It's like to rehearse at all with the actors before any technical team shows up and he'll try one take he's standing by the window looking out the next one he'll go in the darkest corner by his bed and sit there

and then he'll and then Jim will go, is that okay with you? I'm like, yeah. It's, you know, and it's, so we discover it ourselves. We discover where the actor's going. Often, I mean, Timmy has a very good instinctive reaction to how Bob would have been in the space.

Like, we have a scene where he goes to this pub. And we had it all planned before Timmy came to set. Like, he's going to walk in. He's going to sit by the bar, watch this band for a while. It's when he gets punched in the face. Yeah, yeah, he goes to the wind down instead. Yeah, and then we go, okay, Timmy, so, you know, we were thinking this, and then, yeah, but, I mean, I wouldn't really, like, sit in the middle of this.

place you know i don't want to be recognized and i'd go and then yeah so when he goes over and by the window of course we didn't plan that and it wasn't so much a lighting problem with all the trucks are parked that's it's like a scramble we also you know have to move all this equipment and the sound people and the it's okay so we you know but it's i'm very flexible with a light then it's like it's okay you know i mean i just put up a stair tube out the window or a light panel and or a little sky panel and then just give him a little kiss from outside the window and it's it's fine you know it's just you can maneuver really quickly and not get into big setups but yeah it's i mean even mangled was

a youth lit every like he'd walk onto stage onto set and especially in night scenes and whatever set we had was the Viking motel you know pizza here comes every morning drinks coffee I mean

that was so dark I was kind of playing it like it's seven in the morning very little blue cooler ambience stop the windows and then like turns on one practical

and I'm just augmenting the practical very little bit but but you know it's

it's as dark as it would be on a non, you know, let's say, so the actors are, I mean, Jim was definitely sometimes a marking, wow, it's like, I mean, in a positive way, he was like, this is great, you know, it doesn't feel like we're walking, you know, onto a movie set now. So when you're doing, one thing that I've always kind of felt like with these higher ISO cameras is that you can run into the issue of, not building enough contrast into the negative.

So as you were saying, you know, using negative fill to build that. Are you also like in the in the grade just using a lot of windows to kind of like add that contrast back in? Are you completely happy with just letting it ride? I really take a lot of care in controlling my ambience. So that's where I'm saying like I'll put black down everywhere on the ground,

on the negatives as close as I. I can to frame. It's really about shaping it by eliminating ambience. I'll hang on every wall of the ceiling, floppy is broken over. I mean, that part is equipment, of course, that they steal. But it's kind of nice because it still kind of creates an intimacy, especially when you're working with movie stars on the street and stuff. I mean, I have. 20 by 20 is blacks. I mean, I have a lot of blacks up. So I do control my contrast.

And, you know, as Staphnian, Janusz Kaminsky, he was looking at it. And, you know, he lights, you know, he has a very expressive, on try, expressive. And he was looking at some stuff. And he goes, no, it's like, I mean, you know, he, I mean, we're not fans of, unlit things we like to express this story through deciding what is dark

and what is lit and it's not like I'm just natural light I mean it all has a natural approach it's a logical approach based on a practical or if somebody is being front-lit by practical I cut to the reverse of a character

I'm not going to I'm going to have it make sense where he's three-quarter backlit from that I mean, you know, I kind of have a hard time not applying a natural logic to my lighting. But I do shape it and and I do have the key ratio, fill key, or typically I have no fill. Because as you know, I mean, these cameras are so sensitive. They really like, I'll go, why is he red? And then I see it as like a red ashtray song.

Or the tally light. I noticed I was testing the C-80. And the tally light, it was making the whole room red. And I was like, it's crazy. My hand, I was like, I'm like, what is this blue? He's got a blue fill. And I walk over and, you know, it's on some wireless control. Like, there's a tiny little blue LED light on the camera on like black tape,

like I'll walk around. I mean, I've become like a Nazi with the clothing of a crew. right yeah like a set dresser will come with a pink sweatshirt and I'm like no pink no reds no yellows you know when we're on the street with these uh you know we have to put on the safety vests oh no sorry I talk to you know then I talk to production I go you know not with this camera can't can't have 10 crew people boom guys with orange safety vests and I'm like sorry um yeah so it's really crazy. But, you know, there's that, me controlling all

that, but then there's also the lot that I create is a very much a film lot to begin with. It's sort of a Kodak chrome emulated film light. It's very contrasty. You know, it has switched, I mean, it has a lot of contrast

built in and then it has also a color curve that's very much like Kodachrome. It's picking up reds there and it's very saturated. And that's the one thing, when I do live grading on set, which we don't do on a regular basis, pretty much we live with the one lot we have throughout the show. But sometimes I go, like, it depends on the environment.

I go, like, skin tones are a bit yellow, like, what is it? And it's based on the wall color and, you know, and I will, I will, you know, I will, you know, tweak skin tones and sometimes adjust. I mean, even the blacks sometimes because that same very contrasty Lut, like in a contrasty environment, the exterior walking, which we have some in the sun and they go around the corner into shade. I do adjust it. I lift the blacks a little bit and then because the dailies really get copied one-to-one

as we create them because we spend so much time developing the Lut And then we spend time adjusting it on set that the instructions to the Daly's colorist is just to make it exactly like that. Because Jim is also very conscious of, Mangold is very conscious of what the monitor looks like. You know, that's his first impression. And he's the photographer himself. He works on, he likes this contrasty saturated look and. on the photos he takes and he shows me later, he's applied as sort of a similar aesthetics to his grading.

So, you know, he wants it when the dailies don't look exactly the way they looked on set, he's like, you know, I don't think your guy is doing it right. And then we compare them, but on this show, it wasn't really the case. You know, I remember, like on Fordham's first Ferrari, it was like, they'd look nothing like your dailies. go, well, no, they are. And, you know, we get in the morning and we compare the iPad to what DIT had and to our Olet. And, oh, yeah, you're right.

It's a bit contrast, a bit lifted or saturation is a bit less. And we redo them on this show. We had really very good results. And he never made us redo them. But I do appreciate it because, you know, as I said earlier, you know, you live with. that material in editorial for five months and if it's off it becomes a new reality you accept it that's you know so when you actually fix it um although it's a correction and now it's you're making it the way you intended it they'll go well that's not i looked in dais let me see the dailies

i go yeah in dailies it was too cool remember right like it he goes yeah now but now i miss it And it's a normal thing to happen because, you know, you're living with that material. You've cut the scene, you know, for days into isn't. And it becomes your new reality. On the indie side, it's log. You know, like the director just seeing the log image for a long time. And then you put some contrast in they're like, oh, it's like garish, you know? Yeah, yeah.

And then in Europe, I see a lot of colorists. I mean, they have a much flatter sort of almost log-like. I remember all the first Alexa movies. And then I would go in and I'd be doing color grading in Europe and I apply all this contrast and they go, it's such an American look. Sure. I don't know.

I go, well, okay, but now they've changed. I remember everything, you know, they were complaining about digital cameras and stuff. I go, the camera's fine. It's like you're not working it in the grades. like to write you know they i i mean in all fairness they also don't have the time i mean that's why like alexa built in these looks you know in the in the 35 yeah so and they asked me you think that's good or it's like sony was just asking me i was just in tokyo meeting in yokohama with all

the software engineers and they're like what do you think of these built-in looks and i go well to me it doesn't make sense because you know they're very subtle and I go I'd rather do it like I don't want to bake it in I'd rather do it in the DI but but then you know I was talking to other cinematographers about it also work in television and they go we don't get to sit in the diI we don't get to do all these things so at least we're baking in something of what we want you know and and that they can't eliminate so you know but I feel yeah you can I mean so anyway with a lot it's very important that's why also I really defined a lot

in pre-production and the tests and then I shoot it I make sure by the time we do all our hair makeup and wardrobe tests everyone sees it including wardrobe and makeup especially you know for the base of how warm. Digit really kind of screwed the makeup people. I remember seeing, I think it was Prometheus, and it's like just, it must have been his first digital movie

because it's very apparent, like all the makeup and the, the tonality of the skin. Yeah, but that's why it's very important that when you do all those tests and you dial in, like, makeup and I'm wardrobe, that they all seeing it with a lot,

which is our picture lit, which is, you know, accepted and approved and by the director, so you know it's going to stay that way throughout the post and the DI. But yes, and with makeup, I tell them, I mean, they've become much better. But, yeah, the early transition

when we came from film, I would say I can see it to my eye, I can, and like, it means, I mean, you know, whereas before you could see makeup to die, but on film it looked okay but I'm like I can see you know I see this and I see that

and typically like with the directors I work with we try not to do last look so much you know with Alexander Payne we never even I mean on sideways okay this is a back but or with George Clooney there's nobody less looking and stuff and I go we really don't need it

like if I see a problem I'll call you in I mean stay close and I will bring him in it's not like I'm completely not looking out to them. I mean, I go, there's a, let's hit the nose here, this. But it's like if I see it, then it's when we correct it. But typically, if it come in and I can see it to the eye, it's going to be a problem on camera also. Well, and that goes also to, like I learned on 16, and I remember how easy it was to throw a bunch of light at it

and have it look good. And now you have to be very subtle with digital. For you, do you find that, obviously that subtlety is part of it, but has your process changed with shooting digital? Or is it kind of all the same ratios, same feels, same, you know. Well, you know, so my very first digital show, which made sense for Judd Apatara,

because Janish had shot the one before. And they built 2,000 foot mags. And, you know, he likes to. role in feeding lines to Leslie Mann and Paul Rudd. I did This is 40th with a bit, you know, the first Alexa Classic. And it was great. We can roll 25 minutes or whatever it was back then. External code.

But I go, I don't care. I'm just going to do exactly what I was to light by and like to sit by. And, you know, in the old days, then I would take a Polaroid there. and my viewing glass or I could prove a finder I could judge you know I had the little indie glass and you know I could judge all of them I knew my stock I knew the latitude I knew what it's going to look like so I did that and I looked a set and then I go back to the monitor and now for the first time like and it looked terrible I mean it looked horrible it was horrible

look at two eye and so I stay by the monitor and now I'm on the HMEe talking to the gaffer I go you stay you go to set let me stay on the monitor you tell me what I did no no

and then I go okay like turn turn off the 2K bounce okay turn off the whatever the Kino flow and I go okay

I look okay I look at right turn that off turn okay dim this one down 50% and I go okay now it's looking good but I'm still lighting by eye but off monitor

right so then I go to set and I go this looks terrible to eye so I go okay all right so that's my adjustment of course so I'm still light by the way I always did but I can't do it

to eye on set I mean I'll become better at it knowing now learning you know this was my first digit show and it was their original lexan you know but now using the smaller lights using less like um not being so affected because the smaller lights don't create so much passive bounce and still that's the other advantage of having lower light sources you know you're not picking up so much at it like i remember on this is 40 i mean this how much green would just bounce. There were some scenes in the garden and the yard.

The green was just everywhere. And because a bush was being hit, or a piece of the lawn was being hit by some sun, but like really far away. And that's when I started, like, I need lots of divitia. We need to bring all your rags out. We need to cover this whole lawn. You know, so there are adjustments.

You know, you make. and you learn the camera and but you know um i'm i'm still lighting by but like i said and now i do it with a dimmer and all that and and i make sure it looks good on the monitor with my luth same on nebraska i mean that's a digital show and asco lexler called me he goes what stock did you use on that but i'm working with the not only black and white monitor i'm working with my contrast and the the the the black and white lut i'm lighting to that lot. So I'm lighting to my lot. And that's why it's very important that you dial in and decide on your luck and in early testing and in pre-production. And then you light off of that.

Yeah. Well, and I've certainly run into the issue of just going, oh, no, just put the stock 709. I know it'll look fine in the grade. And then you spend a year in fucking post sitting there going like, oh, and bring that down, bring that down, bring that down, you know, better to just be prepared. Yeah. No, but we start with the left that is like a start. I mean, I don't know what they call it. You know, my, every DIT has their own little library bank of, you know, but I go, give me that whatever we used on Ford versus Ferrari,

that Kodak look up stock. And then we start with that as a base and then, you know, we tweak it, you know. And this one we kind of develop. one from scratch, but it's obviously also based on my reference, my still photographer is William Eggleston. Oh, I've got a couple of his books over here. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, we had, you know, Francoise de production, the design he put together really, in pre-production, you know, before we did anything, we, we had all these, you know, where it's toss and salt lighter and, uh, soul's incredible. That's another. all incredible and those were really inspiring and they were really sort of dictating a lot what we were doing i mean obviously francois was using a lot of sort of the tonalities and contrasts and i bet there are shots were timothy like after he he leaves um columbia records and he's walking down the street and you know the when in the d i were really like referencing those and and then it's

It's very similar. It's just like the heart signs and, you know, the contrast on the streets. And, you know, it's quite saturated. Actually, yeah. It's very, so that, that was really fun to do that and create that. Well, and also that explains the deep stop, because, you know, the street photography of the time being all range finder, you know, is F8 and B there. Yeah, yeah. And I really think that combo, well, obviously of the glass that Dan was.

picking and asking me about the quality of the flares and do you want them warmer and this and that and and the deeper stop i think really helps uh this period look i mean i think it's more accurate than you know shooting um at a 1.4 yeah although you know in the old days i mean i I love my size super speeds and, you know, I'm very influenced by Robbie Miller's photography and American friend and things like that. I mean, we did shoot before I started doing anamorphic and I was using size super speeds on a lot. I mean, I often shot it wide open, you know.

I mean, that was actually, you know, a different approach, but kind of almost, like, you would shoot at one to one two or something one four and it had similar to things where you're picking up a lot of this you know it's kind of similar to these high sensitive cameras you know that some of the qualities that you know it was less contrast to have back then i was fighting the limited latitude and the no detail in the blacks or like shooting wide open you would you know somebody would light a cigarette and would like fill up you know it was nice i mean i because back then it was the opposite problem like things would clog up you wouldn't have any shadow detail like I remember a mouse hunt there was some new stock that it came out and you know Linda the son of a production designer

we had this very dark house I don't know if you remember mouse hunt but it's a Gorvibinsky movie with Nathan Lane I know I remember that yeah yeah you kill this little mouse yeah yeah you did it did you do a ton of like were those miniature because there's a lot of like in the wall stuff

right? Yeah that's that's all mechanical miniature yeah this is the early early CG there's like three shots in mouse and that's a CG mouse just one

he's sitting on his shoulder at the end it was 90% real mice we trained like 300 mice and ended up with like 10 here or like the best A to B runner, the best climber. Some of the details and close-ups of the mouse living in its interior wall space was a mechanical mouse.

And then we had one bigger oversized, when he gets hit with an orange. But anyway, it was very dark, and these wood panels, very dark oak and stuff. And otherwise, I had to pump the opposite of what I'm doing now. I had to really pump a lot of light onto this woods and find reflection angles. to even see the texture, like there was two and a half, three stops into shadows max, you know,

and windows would blow out. That's why I'm often, you know, now even with Alexa 35, so much latitude, like I'm trying to blow up windows. And I think you can't. I go, yes, I know, thank you. I want to. You know, that's what, like, the stage work on Complete Unknown, like his apartment, you know, It's like it's a, you know, it's a backdrop. It's a painted backdrop.

So I, it's like I got to blow it out. Right. I mean, I treat it like I'm shooting on location where I'm trying to get some exposure and some detail out there, but barely managed to if I was on film. And now I have to, I go turn on. Actually, that's where I used to love your lights is hitting the backdrop. I'm like, turn on everything.

Like, we spot read it. We still with a light meter and all that. go yeah it's eight stops over do you have any more because it's still like i'm a monitor i'm still seeing too much of a painted brick you know so yeah it's it's not like necessarily like that's why i don't really require like people ask me sony and and and airy and what do you want and i don't need more latitude you know i i really don't uh i don't really need more speed either And 12,800, it's just fine. And I don't really need a larger sense or, like, more than 8K anyway.

I do think. I don't know. I don't know where it's going to go and how, I mean, I don't know how I could ask you that. What do you think? I mean, where is this going to keep? How do we, I don't want any more improvements. Yeah.

No, I agree. I think camera technology, I feel like, has plateaued in a way that we, it was an arms race right bigger sensor more latitude more speed as you're saying and now it's like i think all the camera manufacturers are probably probably why they're like asking you on the one hand they want to you know collaborate with artists but i think they're just like how can we uh sell more of these you know it was like TVs you know 4k AK you know HDR all this stuff yeah and I told them what I think I would still want uh I mean I still want smaller camera. I want

you know, they're working, I mean, like the Rialto type or the 265 now. I mean, you know, it's great if I don't necessarily need a stacem or a gimbal rig, you know, I can and I've seen some things

now that I can't talk about. But, you know, like a few of those conversations that haven't get edited out. One that Claudia used and you know, there's this and this, I I mean, compactness and, you know, also affordability. I mean, I'm really, I own an FX3, also FX6. I didn't use him on, because I had three Venice's.

I had Rialto, and Scott Sertramoto was fine on Steadicam with Venice. But, you know, I've shot a documentary in the meantime with three FX-6s. and it's quite good. But, you know, maintaining sensitivity, maybe 12,000 becoming even a little better because some people still feel it's maybe too noisy. But the compactness of it, you know, the problem is when people still want their glass and the bigger lenses.

I mean, now, like, I put my anamorphic on one of these little cameras. it outweighs the body really one and also in dimension and you know that maybe the lenses more compact lightweight lenses i mean it's it's good because then you know it gives you a lot of flexibility to really great shots without i mean the reason i used the fx3 on this commercial was apple commercial uh it's because we did these like extreme rotations like close around the face and there were We're going to bring in a moco rig, like a huge, you know, are very expensive. And I go, first of all, it's really close to the actor's face. It's also kind of dangerous, like these rapid whip. And let's just do it, like, with that fix three like this. And the director was really intent.

He actually operated all that, you know, like, and I go, this is great. You know, so, I mean, but it opens up a lot of, doors for not stuff without you know huge rigs and mechanical rigs so yeah well you know watching um a complete unknown like the thing that it was hard to watch only because uh i couldn't watch it critically i just started getting into the film and then i'm sitting there like no i got to ask questions hold on you know but the thing that came up a lot it was it was just like the restraint i just kept thinking like this is a very restrained so not a lot of movement And not a lot of, you know, it's just kind of, obviously except for the study cam stuff.

But, um, yeah, but you know what? There's, I think the camera moves like on every shot. But, you know, we're very subtle and we move. We're always on a slider. There's a little push-ins, probably on everything. Yeah. Well, but even so, I think the, the thing that I was wondering about was, you know, talking especially about, um, the advancements in digital technology and all this is like,

how do you, to your mind, what is, what makes a good image when you have all these tools that can do anything? You know, like is, is it that restraint? Is it, as you were saying earlier, taking away light and maybe moving just a little and not a lot, not using the tool at 100%, you know, or what is it to you? Yeah. Your images are gorgeous. The tool is the tool and it can use what it can offer and it doesn't mean you have to use it. It's just like in the DIY, all the tools I have. I still, you know, I'm not creating a look because I can.

I'm telling a story. I don't want to draw attention. I mean, it's definitely more classic storytelling and not really drawing attention to them. I mean, in general, always my entire career, I don't really want people to, if someone comes up to me after a screening, goes, oh, wow, that movie looked incredible. To me, it's a bad thing. I mean, I'd rather have him be like you where you're forgetting to make notes about what to ask technically.

Like, I want people to not be aware of a filmmaker manipulating them or crafting something. And I've seen incredibly beautiful movies. But I'm often taken out of the story and the character because I'm too conscious of filmmaking. Yeah. You know, I double-featured complete unknown with The Last Showgirl. And Autumn shot a very interesting lens on that one, but it did, it was soft at times. And even my girlfriend was like, what, can you explain this? I was like, I'll explain it after the movie, but yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, and I love yours, Lankthamuses look, and I love, I mean, I love the favorite and poor things. But, you know, often I find myself like. you know the choices of the fish eye and the extreme whites and i mean i like it but i don't really want to be stopped and taken out and forced to think about that uh you almost want to pause the movie and like get all those thoughts out and then hit okay i'm done and then you know yeah and then you know other times it's applied really well like movies like rat catcher or uh dark tooth his earlier lantic

or, you know, where it's definitely a non-conventional framing and stuff, but it really works with the mood he's creating and the drama he's telling. And, you know, so, I mean, we do these push-ins, but you're not noticing them because they're really appropriate and they're often motivated. Like, our camera doesn't really move if the actor is not moving. Well, unless it's a close-up, like, but the speed, the speed is very critical and crucial the timing when the move starts when it stops we're also very aware

and i we're both luckily very similar sensibilities also in terms of editorial pattern like we know where the shot's going to be used and that's really helpful and that's i mean it's our seventh movie together but i've also directed on i've cut features and you learn i think it's very useful for a cinematographer to have struggled through editing features because you know you have to kill all your babies as beautiful shots beautiful moves beautiful long tracking shots and whenever we set up something a bigger move I'm like where is it going to play in the scene like so it's not burned a move here although it's a beautiful crane down but it'll never be used to this right and and and and

and Jim is very good of course you know um understanding story and how he's gonna you know so He's like, no, no, no, like, and then we look at, go, no, we shouldn't move till this line, and then we tell the operator, and then take where, and we go, no, you left too early, but you said go on this line, and go, yeah, but he didn't really look up yet. So also, you know, it's, it's how it's delivered, it's what the actor actually, the time, you have to feel it, you have to look at the performance. And luckily, Scott Sagamore is an incredibly instinctive, great operator, and that's why all that stage work during the performance, it's not like we're setting up shots. It's like Timmy plays live three songs back to back, and then we're creating like 100 shots in that sequence. We're extreme close-ups, rotate all the way around, another three-quarter close-up, sit on his back.

You mentioned having three Venises. Were those backups, or were you shooting three cameras a lot? Mostly with single camera. You know, we're very much think single camera. A camera always is priority. Of course, when we do performance things, and I would offer up additional cameras. Jim said, sure, if you can find something as long as it doesn't get him in their way,

because we're like, you know, it's also, if anything, distracting to him. Of course, typically we, when we had our extras and we had the crowd, which was available only for certain parts of a day, of course, they all have to go for period, makeup and wardrobe. but, you know, we try to maximize when we had crowd and we do the white shots that includes crowd of the stage and then like the wide reverses. Of course, we're adding crowd that like when we had

the biggest number of people. But then all the performances when we got into coverage, it's single camera. It's not like it's really just Scott. And luckily he's done maestro. And the star is born and stuff. So he's very, you know, and besides being just always, I mean, it's our fifth movie together with Scott. But, you know, he's really very good about kind of sensing when to go in, you know, and when to pull out and reveal the term, when to rotate around.

Like, I mean, we can't really communicate to him during the fake. I mean, typically, I have an open. lingy yeah other thingy but um but you know it's just it's so loud and and you know you also don't really want to be in their ears right right you know um but it's great it's great and uh and scott and jim and i we have very you can call it classical or uh sense of composition and that's why we like the aspect ratio i mean i've talked to jim about different formats different aspects ratios you know we talk about 1 to 1 3 or

1 1 1 I'd love to do something like Hazablatt style yeah yeah um I'd be very because I'm shooting a lot of medium format now I've gone back to shooting film with my I was glad they're in my Pentax 6 by 7

I want one of those so bad I've got an RZ 67 and I don't know she's tried to pick one of those up but you need a crane no much yeah that's that's six by seven pentax i always wanted as a kid and i just found one uh and i just love it and i love the sound of it but um anyway so um again luckily we we all have the similar paste which is helpful when you're working with a director repeatedly yeah did you i saw you interview uh or you were

interviewed i think it was for panavision did i miss here or like you kind of started the trend of like vintage-tuned lenses or did you jump on that trend no no and that it's not just vintage i mean i have a set of k-35s uh that i bought like kind of accidentally somebody gave him to me for like nothing nice and then and then and dan says like he rehoused them and so i you know and then i mean i've always used well first of all because i've been shooting for so long that i mean the lenses that I used back then are now vintage lenses and I stuck with them because

I like him but I mean what we definitely started the trend and its first time it was done was on Ford versus Ferrari when we decided we want two full aspect ratio but I did some tests

you know cropping it and shooting spherical because it was the LF and I needed to cover it and the anamorphics didn't cover it and Dan is standing there were like two weeks out we're already like picked spherical large format

covering sphericals and and I go that's so nice these cars look so nice and amorphic and the flares and you know it's like and he goes well if you want I can expand it now that's never been done before

and can do anything I go, what do you mean that? He goes, well, I can expand them, so they cover the left. And I go, okay, I mean, if you think you can do that, can you do it in like two weeks? So he did. I mean, but we left for France and we shot in LeMont and, like, with literally they came off his bench. And, you know, they were still flawed, they had vignettes, but we loved the quality. And they were beautiful.

and it was C series and I had some teas also that I used mostly expanded C series and then you know that movie had a great look and a lot of people like jumped on those lenses you know and then it became kind of a demand and that

they started converting a lot of those classic animorphics also not necessarily everybody was on board with that at Panavision like in London I remember you know they're like oh they're taking all these beautiful sets and they're expanding them and they're going to be very hard to unexpand

again because you're literally changing it's not just like an adapter on the rear element or something um and now of course Alexa 35 came out and it takes unexpended like so you know so they didn't want to ruin all that beautiful uh sets um uh but and then they became much better at it dan became much better at to the point where like on on Indiana Jones I felt like the expanded T series that I had and they were almost too perfect, too clean, didn't have enough character. And that's why I told him for this one, I want something that felt more like your first experimental set that we did on Ford vs. Ferrari and that's when he built what he calls these hybrids, which he's using some of what he learned on that for the new compact seas that he's building, which I haven't seen yet. But at the time, and I don't even know right at this point right now, if there's more than one set of this, it's like, yeah.

I mean, I've asked for it on a commercial and it's out somewhere. So I guess people are using, I mean, of course, it's very lenses, but it's definitely being used. But, yeah, so, I mean, We did start that. I mean, not I, but Dan did create the vintage, expanded anamorphics to cover large Roma. It was first done on Ferraria. Gotcha.

Yeah, Dan, like, the number of people who have said that that man, so, you know, Joe Bogdanovich is to coloring as he is to lenses. Like, my friend Marcus Porter on September 5, he, like, took apart a lens to, like, modify it himself. And then he was like, yeah, I tried to put it back together. took it to Dan. Dan fixed it. If you go to his workbench and it's just literally all these

elements and stuff and, you know, it's definitely sort of it's a lot like only you can put him back together and you can literally give him it goes, okay, on the scale from one to 10, how much

halo do you want or how much do you want this flare to be or go, I don't know, six. And he goes, and he's gone for like 10 minutes and he comes back and like i was addressing my k-35s for travel of chicago 7 to match with my anamorphics um and he would leave with lens one lens at a time uh okay like on a scale from 1 to 10 like a 4 on this one and he go and come back in 10 And he had achieved it So I really don't know

Take some nose grease Yeah, yeah, yeah No, no, but he does anyway, yeah But yeah, and a little bit of the problem is I don't think anybody else can do Kind of what he does And he's, I mean, he's teaching He's supposed to teach people

Yeah, he needs to write a book or something, geez. Well, yeah, anyway. Yeah. Well, we've got it. A little over. I'm here. Yeah, yeah. I believe, actually.

No, that's perfect. I was about to say we've gone a little over and I really appreciate you spending the time. I was actually supposed to get a hold of you through a mutual friend, Brandon Cox. Oh. And then that never happened. Now you're here. So it's really awesome to be able to chat with you finally. My pleasure.

It was very enjoyable. That's good to hear. It was technical without feeling like a technical conversation. perfect that's all I can ask for all I can ask for all right well thank you so much for taking the time and I'm glad you enjoyed the movie I really did and I don't even care about Bob Dylan that much and now I do we're good that's how it's supposed to work like for versus Ferrari all these people go I don't even care of don't like cars and never watched racing and you know but it's it's Jim has this ability just to put the audience inside the characters and then and you know all

all of his emotional journey, the internal journey is what makes those movies special, like what Ken Miles is actually experiencing and feeling inside the cockpit of that car. And it's, of course, incredible race footage as well, but what makes his movie special and why he gets these great performances, because, like, it's those beats, you know,

those internal beats that the protagonist experiences and communicating that. to the audience. Yeah. Well, I also really love Ford versus Farre. So whenever you're able to talk with me again, I'd love to go over some of the back catalog, you know, Biodome, all the good ones. Biodome, yeah.

Pray of the Roller Boys. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Hipp to kill, too. Awesome, man. Well, please, please stay in touch and have great rest of your day. Thanks, Kenny. Frame and Reference is an Albot production, produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so.

so by going to frame and refpod.com and clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated, and as always, thanks for listening.