Frame & Reference Podcast - 178: "Laid" Cinematographer Judd Overton

Episode Date: February 27, 2025

We've got another returning guest! This time it's Judd Overton, here to talk about his work on the new Peacock series "Laid"Enjoy!F&R Online ► https://www.frameandrefpod.comSupport F&R ► https://www.patreon.com/FrameAndRefPodWatch this Podcast ► https://www.YouTube.com/@FrameAndReferenceProduced by Kenny McMillanWebsite ► https://www.kennymcmillan.comInstagram ► https://www.instagram.com/kwmcmillan

Hello, and welcome to this episode 178 of Frame and Reference. You're about to drop into a conversation between me, Kenny McMillan, and my guest, Judd Overton, DP of the Peacock series Laid. Enjoy. did you watch um uh the last um the last showgirl no i haven't seen that yet so i'm watching it and i'm like this actress looks really fucking familiar like where have i seen it it's the chick from the killer or totally killer oh killing yeah yeah yeah and i was yeah she's awesome yeah it was just funny but what what she's popping up all over the place so she's yeah yeah it's great i remember i remember like

you're in totally killer. She's got like a really good comedic timing. Yeah. She's very I mean, she's growing up on television and in the industry. So yeah, she just gets it. She's really appropriate for her young years. Yeah. But what have you been up to since then? It feels like it feels like since I last spoke to you, it was just like, I'm going to take a breather. And then Hulu comedy. There's been a whole lot of, yeah, it's been a fun. It's been a funny year. So, you know, really lucky, feeling really blessed to have this project laid come up. And I know a lot of people haven't, you know, haven't had projects.

You know, we went up to Vancouver to shoot, which was, which was awesome. And again, going back there after Totally Killer was great. So I got to, you know, reconnect to some of the crew. Yeah, and some on the same crew, different stages. But, you know, Vancouver's fantastic. It's really great place to work and pretty pro crew up there. and, you know, it's a really film-friendly place to shoot. So, you know, if it's, apart from the rain, the rain's an issue.

But, you know, as long as you've got some studio to kind of duck and weave around that, you know, you're pretty good. Yeah. So was it, uh, I, it's funny because I was watching it over my girlfriend's shoulder, um, and then like the, hey, do you want to talk to Judd? I was like, I love to Jen, let's go back. But, uh, it's, it's a, it's a different look than, uh, than, uh, than, um, then, totally killer for sure for sure yeah i mean look i mean it's the same director so there's is that is it and that and i didn't do my research yeah so nanachika khan is the is the director and it's like the third maybe fourth project i've shot with her now so um you know it's always

great to have that relationship because it just means you can take more risks and and have a bit of fun you don't sort of have to be too careful in what you suggest i mean obviously some things you You know, you make a pitch and it doesn't always, it doesn't always land, but that's okay too. You know, you kind of work it out together. So that was really a fun part of taking the project on board, you know, working with Natch again. And it is a different, you know, it's a very different look to the film, which is a good thing. You know, like I always like to like to kind of stretch myself and try to do some different

stuff. But also there is some vibe in there, you know, like. Just a straight, just doing a straight rom-com, I think isn't what I'm looking for. But, you know, having that little bit of darkness and having the opportunity to do, you know, some jump scares and some gags. And, you know, that's what kind of piqued my interest on the, on a script level, you know, just turning the pages. I was like, oh, yeah, this is going to be something else. You know, it's going to, we're going to push people a little bit out of their comfort zone and not make it just, you know, just a network rom-com kind of show. Yeah.

So talk to me about the pre-production process because I imagine, you know, with a film, I feel like it's straightforward. And usually with television shows, a lot of times there will be more than one DP, but you shot the whole thing, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, I've been, you know, fortunate in the last couple of shows that I've done have been that way, like, you know, killing it, the two seasons I do a bad show with the same, kind of eight and ten episodes that I shot myself. I guess the difference is almost like you're prepping a bit like a feature, you know, especially if you've got, I mean, the Killinga was different because it had multiple directors, but on this show, we only had two directors. So, Nanachka did six of the eight episodes, and Mo Marable did the other two episodes and

I worked with Mo before as well. So it was kind of really great to, you know, it's just so, so much easier to have those creative discussions and to kind of, you know, you've got a jumping off point. So it's really great. You can just kind of, you can get straight into it, which you have to do in television. I think we had five weeks of prep. So, you know, and I want to say eight or nine week shoot, something like that. So, you know, it wasn't a lot of time. But you end up kind of prepping it, especially with the one direct that almost like a feature and you kind of work your way through it. And each episode builds on itself and you want to have that continuity. And obviously having myself,

there for all the episodes I can kind of oversee that and you know and we're shooting pretty much in order we did we block shoot but we're you know just doing two episodes at a time um so you kind know where you're going you know that you can build up and build up and then things like you know when these depths start happening you know you you can see the scale of it you're like okay well this is going to be a surprise and this one's going to be a little bit you know a little bit bloody and then this one's it you know you can sort of ramp people up to to to the end which is totally bonkers or you know that's kind of a fun way to approach it yeah and so were you uh what were the discussions like around sort of uh tone because it's it is you know uh not gross but you know

a little gory or whatever at times it's not a straight up rom-com uh how are you guys finding that balance and like were you were you looking at any other uh films or television to kind of be like it's a little more like this little less like that i think in terms of the, like the leaping off point was that wrong tone. You know, we really wanted to kind of trade on everyone's, you know, fond memories of all those, you know, when Harry met Sally and all those kind of classic romance films. But even in looking at those, and even when we were being similar to those, we knew that, you know, we're going to take a side turn. So we started off down that path of like, okay, so the overall thing needs to be warm and it needs to bring

people in. It needs to be, you know, naturalistic, but heightened, all those kind of catchphrases that you hear a lot in television. It's like, make the people look pretty. So we started off down that path and then it was really about how we got into, you know, the balancing of the tone between the scary bits. And I mean, Narch is amazing for that. And I am, you can see it from totally killer, where she's balancing, you know, a slasher with a teen comedy, you know. So it's that same kind of vibe, albeit different subject matter. But this, it was really, let's balance the romance with this kind of true crime podcast, kind of, you know, world that, you know, is so popular, so contemporary at the moment.

So we're really updating the romance to include, what if you're dating a serial killer, you know? what's what's going on here and you know making a real sort of mystery and a who done it kind of thing that kind of really keeps the tempo going throughout the throughout the episode yeah and there's also like kind of an element of like is it just at least the way i took was like is it is it is it fate is it like does she have a mystical uh body that it's really we kind of and and we go down all of those, you know, quite random tangents, you know, like you kind of get to explore all of those. I think Zasha Mavitt, who's who plays AJ, who plays the sort of buddy character, you know, is a really great kind of device and foil for that.

Like, she keeps it really straight, but she's also, like, getting kind of interested by all of this death and murder. And whereas Stephanie's character, you know, is kind of our entrance point to the audience's they're disappointed to it. And, you know, you do feel her freaking out and getting scared at times. And, you know, you kind of go on the ride with her. You see that the romance swell and then kind of like the bag comes on the head and it's like, where am I what's going on?

You know, like she really does get kind of in the moment scared. Yeah. So the one thing that I noticed about is it's like the sort of base look is incredibly high-key. and so I imagine was that were you able to achieve that without like a crap ton of gear because in my head it's like you must have had lights

just everywhere or were you able to kind of achieve that in a more elegant way? I mean essentially we're shooting an ensemble rungom and our stage work was primarily the apartment we built the apartment

so that's kind of her at Ruby's bedroom kitchen living area and a bit of a hallway and then we also built richie's apartment which comes into play i think it's so three he sort of you know it's three four he sort of starts to come into it start a four or all takes place it is um you know at his apartment um we knew we had to build those because they are regular places and they were also you know it was just the page count we need to get through in those um so those were lit you know more like a traditional you know we had um you know the backdrop

day night backdrop outside and we kind of lit it as a stage. You know, we had a few cool tricks where we would have, you know, there would be like a soft box in the, in the roof, which we wouldn't really use much. But we had panels that could flip out and we could drop pipes in and, you know, kind of if the blocking changed or if we needed to get a light in on someone, we could kind of, you know, get it in pretty quickly. That being said, we didn't want it to feel, you know,

Hollywood or super, super lit. You know, we wanted to always have it. Especially for Ruby's character, you know, having the framing just being a little bit broken, a little bit off centre, you know, so that the audience doesn't feel like she's, you know, winning from the start. You kind of gives that little, just a bit of uncertainty to her. And we did the same width of lighting. You know, we would have some hot pools behind them or on their bodies or something like that. But they would very rarely find, you know, their perfect sort of glamor light. They're always kind of a little bit, you know, half the stop down, that sort of thing against, you know, the windows that can blow.

and we can get you know make it feel like this some daylight make it feel real real in the space um and then we obviously the rest of the show we had to had to shoot on locations um you know practical locations um you know a big one obviously the wedding we have the wedding in uh episode two which is you know massive and we're shooting it during summer in vancouver so you know you've got about five hours of shootable light in that environment so you know it's just legit It's really working out where all the lighting rigs are going to go. And you've never got quite enough light. You've always got to bring a little bit in, but as much as possible, I tend, you know,

my approach generally in locations is to see where the light naturally comes from or would come from and try to mimic that or, you know, not try to force it too much. Just try to make it feel, again, like a heightened version of its location playing itself. Sure. So in prep, was it, obviously you're scouting, you're figuring all that out, but was it all pretty rote or were you getting a general idea than like once you get there figuring out what you're dealing with? Oh no, we've got overcast today or whatever the fuck. I mean, I always try to plan for, you know, plan for the worst, hope for the best, you know, like if they're again shooting in Vancouver, we'd always have some kind of, you know, fly swatters if we're doing day work or rain protection if we're doing night work. because it can turn really quickly there.

But also the crew are super used to that environment, you know, all the fabrics that they use are plastic and waterproof and things like that. You know, all there, the crew gear, you see the crew gear coming out and they're just like ready for battle. You know, they've got all the best wet weather protection, that sort of thing. So you can really, I mean, the sound might be affected, but the number of times we've kept shooting scenes, you know, and just gone into the close-ups under, yeah, under overheads.

And, you know, you can kind of match the light. And obviously, you know, digital grade helps helps a lot just to, you know, to help you out there. But, yeah, I think in terms of the process for scouting, you know, like I like to be on hand. So even when there's pre-scouting going on, I'm either getting photoset through, you know, on the smart files or whatever, the locations are sending through. Or I try to be there, even if I've got to, you know, fly myself up or, you know, just to be there. because it's so important when you're choosing a location because it's, it's, well, it's two-fold, it's a character, you know, especially some of these main locations are so important just in terms of what the story is and me getting into the head of what the director's thinking,

what the production designer is thinking, you know, having those early conversations when there's not too many of the crew around so we can kind of walk through each other's eyes and see and talk and, you know, kind of make the mistakes before there's any real wake. on it or any time pressure. And the other thing is, yeah, just from a logistical point of view, you know, if we turn up at a location and it's a football field, it's, you know,

we're going to start talking to the producer, talking to grips, and it's going to be some heavy equipment going in. Can we even get that equipment in here? You know, we weren't the kind of production that wanted to do that. You know, we wanted to kind of keep it, you know, we had a good budget, but we wanted to keep it as lean as possible just so that we

could be flexible. And just because it's a comedy, there's improvisation, you know, if you get too locked in, you suddenly find, oh no, we want to turn over there, but now we're looking at the whole unit base, you know, so we can't really, you know, we've kind of shot ourselves in the foot. So, yeah, trying to keep it, trying to protect ourselves even at those early scouting stages, for sure. Yeah. Did you see, uh, shit, what was it, uh, fall guy? Yeah, sure did. I was just imagining, yeah, what's that? I got, they shot in Australia. So I've got a bunch of friends. Oh, cool. Because I was going to say they must have had

the best time ever just turning around and going, we can just shoot camp, who cares? Not a lot of those like when they're actually shooting the movie. For sure. I'm sure they were just like, why bring in production design where we can just shoot it? You have your tent right there. Yeah. That's actually video village. Yeah, I've realized recently. that I don't ask enough pre-production questions because it's not something like for me anything that I shoot ends up being relatively simple

it's either corporate stuff or it's like one location you know that I'll just get you know does this work and I'm yeah I'll figure it out you know so what is your like pre-production toolkit is it just like wandering around with Artemis and Sunseeker and just seeing what's happening or is it you know how involved does it get for you

yeah I mean it depends on what what you need to do there. I mean, I have a, you know, I don't kind of refer to it anymore, but I have a list of pre-production questions to ask and location questions to ask and, you know, all those sort of things, just a checklist, really, so that I know that I'm not going to kind of end up with egg on my face, so the production is not going to get slowed down, really, when we get there. So, and I think you just add to that list as you go on and as you see things, you know, getting bigger

bigger and then at a certain point you got to ask a question is like is this are we getting bigger than this needs to be you know for an eighth of a page you know those sort of questions so i guess that's always in the back of my mind as well is um you know where where's the best bang for your bark you know you want to make sure that um i mean i need to make sure i've got a good understanding of what the director wants show around wants um and what those kind of darling scenes are or what those real pivotal moments are because you want to make sure you're spending, you know, time and money on those rather than, you know, wasting money or wasting time on something, you know, building a massive setup that's really not going to help the production or, you know, that isn't,

sometimes the location or the schedule changes. So you need to move that and it doesn't make sense to shoot that together with that anymore. So there's a lot of that sort of stuff, working with the ADs and kind of, you know, having a plan A, B through X so that, you know, this is the best case scenario. This is what we love to achieve. But then when it all turns apart, you know, you can kind of, you can still salvage it. You can still find a way through because you've also thought about, oh, actually, this could also work with that. And sometimes those things come up, those are all happy accidents. And you find yourself shooting something in a much better way, even though you don't know with less resources you know you can sort of find some

find some little things by accident that are actually that's exactly what we're meant to do you know it just works for the project yeah do you obviously trust is is a huge part of it but do you find yourself ever not just this project but finding one of those moments where you're like we we don't need to spend a lot of time on this and you know but maybe the director or the producer whoever is like really in love with some idea and you have to be like Please listen to me. We don't need that. I mean,

often if you're looking at a one-liner or a schedule and you're seeing that there's a certain amount of time allocated for something, you know, suddenly you're looking at three or four hours for that. Like that's half my day, you know, it's that what we really want to be, you know, it's just a conversation because you might not know, the director might have a vision for it, which is very specific or there might be, you know, what we do in television a lot are alts, you know, so you get your script.

And you're like, oh, this is a walk in the park. We've only got half a page today. It's like, ha ha ha. You know, here's another 10 pages of all. Excuse me, you've got to go, you know, you've also got to get through and you've got to get through in all your coverage. So, you know, yeah, I think it's just, it's important to keep having conversations through prep. And even as things change on the day, you know, keep having those conversations. It's like, this is what we're, this is what we're going for, right?

You know, like have a plan, but then be prepared to throw that plan away or change it. don't get to um i mean there's certain elements that are like key images one of ours was you know the kiss in the rain sequence and it and it was big you know it's a massive thing we're locking off a whole city street but it's you know shooting nights massive wet down rain towers you know trying to get lights hanging out of windows and where do we why do we light it from all that sort of stuff but it was such a key moment for the wrongcom of it all for the romance of it all yeah we knew we had to execute that, you know, exactly to the vision. So yeah, you just have to kind of prioritize those and have those good conversations. And I think, yeah, as you say, trust is

important because you can have a sort of a free exchange with your director or, you know, with the producers or the show runners about, you know, so everyone's on the same, everyone's trying to play the same game. Everyone's trying to work towards the same goal. Yeah, the, the scale of the show really is larger than you expect. Yeah, it's not a, it's not your, you know, the classic half-hour comedy, you know, it's not like a, you know, it's all shot on the lot. It's not that kind of show. So, yeah, I mean, Natch really likes practical locations. So that has an impact in it. But also we, you know, we built border wall in our stage. You know, we have one stage for, for shooting in,

construction, we're in that space for a bunch of the time as well. And we lined up with stages. little pop-up air fly sets and you know psychologist office and did some car works and you know blue screen work in there as well you know so you kind of use every little corner of the space you're allowed um yeah i mean it would have been great to build more of it but it if it also feels like it's real you know it makes it feel more more lived in you know i mean in australia we do a majority of our stuff in set sorry not in sets you know they're very rarely build sets unless it's unless you're on like a one of the kind of soap opera company shows they have standing sets and all it from the in the rig and all you know from the grid all that sort of

thing but most most sort of short run shows that sort of 10 haps series even 20 half series and indie films all those sort of things are practical locations they don't have a money for a build unless you're going to burn it down or do something you know crazy with it right so and you were also shooting three cameras. Yeah, not the whole time. You know, like we still, it's a, it's a, it's a single camera show and we definitely lead with, you know, trying to find the right angle, especially, you know, we want to make, make sure the ladies are looking great and, you know, all the sort of the things you do. That being said, you know, there is a lot of improvised, a lot of comedy. So, so we do cross shoot quite a lot. And then anytime we had the ensemble,

or any time we had like a bigger yeah bigger scenes with lots of extras and things like that we fly a third camera into those sure you actually brought up some that I think is important to touch on which is like the beauty lighting I think a lot of times especially for indie filmmakers not everyone chooses a rom-com or

potentially doesn't have you know actors of a certain vintage in there where you need to do your buddy of favor as it were do you have any like what are you doing to make sure everyone's looking their best because it's one thing to just get big old soft source put it near them but usually there's there's a little more to it than that yeah i mean i think um this wasn't a show where we could do the kind of single source through the window um gag unfortunately you know it would have been great um but uh but no i think you know our approach to this was i mean firstly it's back to

reproduction as testing and making sure you can get at least your number one, number two, you know, on camera and have a little look. And, I mean, I do a lot of looking, trawling through the internet and seeing either photos that they've had done or other shows that they've films that they've worked on, whatever, to kind of see, okay, what's good lighting, what's bad lighting for them. So at least I've got a leaping off point. It's a, well, I don't want to, you know, let's not do that. You know, and I could show that to the Gafflin, say, we can, you know, do a bit better than this.

And then it's also about, you know, you've got a schedule. So trying to find the way to look after everyone and make everyone feel appreciated at the same time as hidden your 20 pages, 10 pages, whatever the day, you know, sort of has for you. I mean, we were using a lot of, you know, like the, what do you call them, Pileos tubes with the, with the, oh, sure. Yeah, the pool noodle on them, you know, those sort of things, or the, or the, um, the sock. We can put a couple of the tubes inside a sock. And, you know, we just have those on a stand for when we needed to get in, getting close. Um, often when we're shooting, we would kind of shoot our midshots first. Um, I've sort of, especially doing this kind of improv, improvised work or where there's a lot of bolts and things like that.

Um, I've been stitched up before by, you know, you shoot this amazing master shot. And then once they get into the words, you sort of find out, oh, actually, no, that's not, you know, they should end over here. And so, you know, so you end up redoing your work again. So we definitely, you know, try to start in some form of coverage, you know, and I'm lighting the space so that actors can go, you know, wherever they want within certain, you know, reasons. I can obviously help them out. If they sort of go into a dark corner, I can sort of suggest to, you know, offer that and move a little. closer or we can change something but then once we get into the close-ups then they'll just try to supplement that and you know some people have sort of you know sunken eyes or need a little bit of

a little polyboards under the under chins and things like that so i just sort of have all those tricks and just have the you know have the team standing by to bring that in once we go in for the closures yeah you actually just uh made me because like obviously portraiture um is where you'll find a lot of that sort of beauty lighting and it didn't really occur to me like, oh, yeah, you can steal, this is going to sound so dumb. You can steal a lot of those techniques, which I don't think, usually if you get someone who's a photographer who then jumps into cinematography, their stuff looks too lit. So stealing it the other way, yeah, that's.

Yeah, I mean, it's also knowing, it's also knowing what you've got time for in post, you know, like staying, you're staying switched onto the project and, you know, Sigi first store has been my colours for a number of years. And I know that, you know, time permitting in the grade, we can do a little cosmetic pass. And if I need to, you know, just pink someone's eyes or, you know, just change the contrast a little bit because it's, you know, it's a bit heavy. You know, we're shooting raw. So we've got plenty of, you know, plenty of information in there. And obviously, I try to get the Lut and the CDLs as close as possible.

So the editorial, everyone can be looking at, you know, at least the colors should be true to what they are. But then once you get in for the grade, you know, we probably spend it's about four hours per half hour. Yeah, I think the shows are all running about 30 off, 30 or 35 minutes each episode. So we probably spend about four hours per episode, sometimes a little more if it's a super complex thing. But, yeah, you know, you know what you can do. You know, so if I'm running out of time on set, you know, it's not ideal, but I can get, I can, we can fix that. yeah the two the two i color a lot of my own stuff and the two tools now that i have a computer that can handle it um that i found in resolve that are that are shockingly helpful well not only

helpful but just like invisible enough is uh there's in resolve you know there's like the beauty tool like you can smooth up scam do like oh yeah yeah high frequency little defocus yeah yeah uh and it's even better than that too because i used to just have to do like like drag the midtone detail down. But now it's like the skin texture stays there. It's a lot more like high frequency separation and stuff. But then also there's a relight tool

in resolve where it's like, I needed the key to be a little hotter. You can like, instead of just bringing it up with the window, you can put like a virtual light bulb in there. And it'll operate roughly the same with like a depth map. It's like the post tools have gotten so

advanced and helpful to get you out of a smart i mean and look i think there's always uh compromise for using those tools you know like there's there's there's going to be some some give and take with it and it's obviously better to get it in camera if you can but yeah if you if you yeah we're always pressed for time so it's one of those things to know those tools you know to know what the you know like this they are tools in in resolve very incredible and you know having that access to that and sort of knowing the back of your head it's like it's going to be okay you know we've got this we can move on you know um yeah

it's pretty important. Yeah, definitely earlier on in my career, just discovering that Windows were a thing. You know, yeah. This is relatively new. Like, you know, within the past, what, 15 years or so, probably less than that, where it became actually accessible to most people,

aside from, you know, having to get a baselight setup or whatever. And I can remember when you had, you know, five windows and you're like, okay, how much can I do within this one, you know, this one power windows? Right. Now it's like, well, sky's the limit. But it's, it's all taking time and money and zeros and ones. And, you know, that's it. Yeah. Obviously, if you can get it in camera, that's the way to go. Yeah. So it's not really a for like the, again, the base look. It's not really a heavy look. Were you designing like one shooting lot and like what went into that? Or were there multiple luts for like some of the more. We basically had one lot. We basically had one lot. And I tend to, you know, again, it's all just through experience, but I tend to stick with the one camera lot and then do CDLs and stills to communicate what, you know, the changes or what the look is on the day.

I've just found it's a lot easier to communicate because, I mean, in this case, you know, we have a post house doing our dailies up in Vancouver and then that flies down to LA or they stream it down to LA. and then there's somebody else, you know, tweeting and prepping for editorial in L.A. So there's a lot of places where it could get, you know, communication breakdown. And, you know, I'll usually get stills overnight. So the first thing I'll, you know, wake up in the morning and check the stills

and make sure everything, you know, nothing's freaked out before it gets put up to peaks and the world can see it. You know, I found that that keeping that process as simple as possible is the way to go. And then if we do anything different, you know, if we've got a different looking scene, I'll let everyone know, you know, we can pass on through the DIT specific stills, you know,

this we're going for more, you know, this is more bloomy because we're going down this path or, you know, this is, we're sort of, this is our genre tip, you know, especially the start of episode four where, you know, Stephanie's basically been kidnapped and she comes in and we're in this thriller, backlit, you know, light over the shoulder kind of really kind of dark, noirey kind of moment. And then as the scene develops, and she starts to, to kind of realize, oh, actually, I'm not tied up. Oh, you know, it's just, what's going? Oh, it's just richy.

Oh, well. You know, it's a really fun scene to do and we can play with it, but you don't want them to try to grade that out. You know, they need to know that it starts dark and then through the scene, you know, it's progressive. You know, it shouldn't all look like one, one Lut or one look, you know, because it's built into the storytelling. Yeah.

Yeah, the being able to kind of genre hop on one project has got to be, I mean, you kind of did it with Totally Killer a little bit, But that's got to be pretty fun to be like, all right, today is serial killer day, you know, or whatever. Yeah, I mean, you know, of course, as it is that you're in the one day you're doing, yeah, 37 different, you know, the moment. So you have to, you know, have to keep good notes and kind of, yeah, keep your head in the game in terms of what you're actually up to that day.

But, but yeah, it's a lot of fun. And that's what kind of brought me to the project again is just, you know, the versatility, not just doing, you know, not just getting stuck in that straight. you know, a rehashing of a rom-com, you know, the fact that we got to really have some fun with it and the actors were all on board for that and really kind of contemporising and keeping it really, really modern and fun. Yeah, and I know you used a couple different lens sets, eh? Yeah, so for the, um, that's the, so the big shift, but once we found out, we shot with the

Zice Supreme Primes, you know, they're a really nice lens, but not too, not too affecting. again just slightly warm really you know very contemporary not too sharp but just you know just warm and lovely like it really was an inviting kind of look once we once we sort of threw them on the camera what we wanted to do was go a step heavier you know like to really take you into to ruby's point of view for all these rom-com moments so we tried all the things we were testing at multiple equipment houses we're getting lenses shipped in from all that of the place we were hanging bits of glass in front of things and putting you know plastic donuts on and filter you know we we tried everything and you know and really went down the path

as well you know spherical anamorphic you know what's what's going to be the look um and in the end i mean i love anamorphic is amazing format to shoot um not often you get to shoot it in television um and you know and we were we were a two to one project so we're not sort of you know going the full um aspect ratio of that anyways um but once we've discovered we went with the cook full frame animals like lenses and we only had we carried just uh i think we had two or three lenses that we could carry for the run of show just for those moments where we kind of go inside ruby's brain um and you really get those those those roncom moments or sometimes those sort of scared moments or you know what the kind of kind of beats um and the thing about the cooks was there

again just such a such a for an anamorphic lens they're so sharp they're so you know they had a similar sort of warmth to the to the zice um but they don't have the funk you know like they don't a lot of people go for these kind of contemporary modern anamorphic lenses that have you know all about the flares and you know obviously the classic television you know flares and these really don't have that you know you can kind of push a lot of light into them and you're still getting all the all the broken in the background but you don't get that you know artifice that sort of suddenly makes you feel like you're in another film or or you're sort of gagging the audience you know we wanted to keep them still in the same project you know still

feel like they're in the same place but we've just turned it up a bit you know we're just heightening it sort of you know the soft roll off the center you know we sort of cut to of center framing. Often we do a little slider push in, like a four foot slide in towards Stephanie. And we also did like some fun stuff where we had, you know, a wall of fairy lights that we, you know, kind of used for her eye lights. So when you get into her eyes, you start seeing the little sparkles. It's really just really ramping up that kind of rom-com moment and then, you know, either going with it or quite often then breaking it. And it's like, nope, it's not the wrongcom moment you thought it was. Yeah. So you're framing the animal

for that two to one extra yeah exactly yeah um did you find that because a lot of times i know that anamorphics well not all of them but i have this set of uh lowas that are like incredibly clean throughout the whole frame but did you find that you were losing some of that edge funness or was that is that not really it was just perfect like you know we we we looked at so many lenses like some really old funky um even some other some other cooks you know we just went through the gamut of lenses and what i found was you know it was basically the center third on the on the cooks was really quite true you know it was really still quite sharp and and the contrast was matching you know to the zice and then it was really all the funk happened off to the sides and you start

to see that little you know the world sort of wraps around her a little bit and you know and the fall off is It's just really beautiful. So we throw as many little highlights in the background. So they'd all sort of sparkle and twist around. And we had a lot of fun with that. Yeah. Have you seen Marcus's lens flare database? I haven't seen the one yet.

No, I heard him talking about it. But yeah, I'll go check that out. It's really helpful. Because like one thing that we were talking about, I was hanging out with him at NAB, was that part of it is just like, oh, isn't it fun to see lens flares? But also now you can see like because of how flares are. physically. You know, you can see all the elements in a lens and see

kind of pick apart, like, what each lens does you know, outside of the flares and stuff. It's a really fascinating tool. I mean, I'll often use, you know, like the shared grid or old fast glass did that one. Yeah, that big test. And, you know, that's a fantastic jumping

off point, you know, when you start looking at lenses for a project and excuse I, like I'll always jump on that and just throw up a few sets and it sort of shows you in the same setting, the same, you know, model in the middle. It's like it's going to cut your, your prepping time in half because you can sort of start a conversation and you can show that to the director and, you know, do you want to do this.

But then I feel like all my testing isn't charts and, you know, like it's important to know that information, especially, you know, for the focus puller and for, you know, people who, you know, who are making the sets work. But in terms of choosing the lens, I think it's more about shooting it in your environment and shooting it as close to, you know, like setting up a. tests and I always try to do this as early in the prep processes as I can, you know, setting up something and, you know, getting the wardrobe costume department in to sort of put anything on that they want to, you know, like really using it as a kind of, even sometimes it's a pre-shoot,

you know, you might even use that footage, who knows, but kind of getting, getting the lenses that you're thinking about on the actual actors, you know, in kind of an environment or as many of those elements as you can bring together, you know, that's when you really start. you know, it just alleviates so much of the pressure because you've got the director there, you've got, you know, producers there, you can kind of get everyone excited and they can actually see, you know, they can take home a little photo from the day and see, oh, yes, our film's starting, it's starting guys, you know, it can look like. So, yeah, I really enjoy doing that. Yeah, so talk to me about your sort of testing process, because like you said, you're not doing the

classic, you know, someone's sitting in a chair with the, here's the lens and then the twinkle lights in the back like what uh what are you looking for when i will do that you know like i'll definitely like that big flares is uh you know how lens flares is an important thing for sure um and and and colors but i'll also try to you know like if i know i'm going to have a set i'll try to get some some swatches of that you know like i'll try to have something that's you know representative of the of the world i'm going to be shooting and if i'm going to be doing everything you know is set in a swamp then you've got to go outside you've got to have trees and you've got to see what, you know, different, you know, lighting scenarios, like if you've got to, you know,

I need to shoot these guys front lit. So what's that going to look like and what fabrics am I going to need to carry with me to kind of be able to get away with that? Again, it's, you know, like looking at the work, you know, prepping for the worst case scenario and then hoping to the past, you know, just make sure, make sure I've kind of done my due diligence to, you know, to find a way through it. So if we are in a pinch, I'm like, Okay, we're going to be right with that. Yeah. And when you're looking at, when you say swatches and stuff,

we're talking like just how the camera and the lens combo like reproduces color and texture. Is there something else going on in there? Yeah. And also, like if I'm trying to do something in camera, you know, if we're butts in with the colors a bit, you know, I want to make sure that that's, you know, it's working for skin tones as well as working for, you know, for the backgrounds.

Often you find, you know, especially if you're doing a lot of mixed skin tones and an ensemble, cast, you know, you need to know which way things, you know, you're going to need to take a little bit of red out of someone's skin. How's that going to affect the world or the set? So, yeah, it's just doing as many of those that all kind of test, things that, you know, pitfalls that I've had before, I guess, you know, trying to test as many as those as I can up front. Was there a specific reason to choose the LF or was it, you know, familiarity or maybe a Hulu mandate or anything? no it's um i love it um the our show's on uh on peacock um lens on peacock oh i thought why did i think it was hulu that's all good my bad peacock uh um but yeah so it's um it's just a format that i that i love and you know and that you know obviously large sensor small small body you know is a is a winner for me um you know not that we're always trying to drop the backgrounds out or you know like we're often we'll try to shoot it

a reasonable stop like a sort of a deeper stop to try to see some of the you know some of the practical locations that we're shooting in um but yeah i just really love it i mean up we've testing you know tested the 35 the area 35 and obviously people are getting some great results with the um uh you know shooting on the venus two and using that using the uh realto kind of sit set up there um but you know we've we found on on totally killer we ended up stripping down the the lf and you know it's basically like a little you know football size really you can get it down to if you take the batteries and stuff off and it's like it's super super versatile so i i'm kind of my fan of it um but that being said you know it's all about

the right you know that was the right camera for this project and you know we've got a lot of kind of cosmetic you know we want all our sort of factors to look good um each project's different so you kind of you test and shoot the camera that works for that yeah i saw i think it was a DP, might have been the camera, I'm pretty sure there's a DP, invented this really great belt setup that moved the battery. I think you could put two batteries that would like, when one died, it would automatically switch to the other one with no downtime.

And the terra deck would all be belt mounted. So you could just have the LF or I think it was initially for the mini. But, you know, just as absolutely small as possible. And I've certainly stole, he sells like a well-made belt. version. I cobbled one together, but it's like a great

little, I know some people run like backpacks and stuff, but. Yeah, I've seen backpacks and I've seen, you know, the Caslow who prepped this job and totally killer had like a little kind of like a metal vest that, you know, had exactly that, you know, you could go your terror deck and basically

takes all the, all the gunk off it and you probably just got like one single channel for focus and you know, you just keep it a small, you know, we kind of called it out our fight rig, but, you know, we didn't use it so much on this project, but we definitely, you know, we got into it on totally killer for all those, you know, chasing through, you know, like it was fantastic. It was really, really nimble. Yeah. Is there a kind of a lighting setup on, on this show that sticks out as like something

that was, you know, particularly difficult to achieve? And then maybe one that was, you know, he basically said it. I went, oh, that looks great. Roll it, you know. I mean, I guess one of the, one of the scenes that was a bit involved and it was kind of one of my favorite scenes because it's kind of the biggest jump scare of the show is when we go to the tattoo parlor and you know the it's probably the first time you know there's some hope it's one of these kind of you know we're going there with with a positive vibe in which he's going to save this you know save Aubrey and it's one of the most you know lit daylight we do we didn't do a lot of establishes we didn't do a lot of exteriors at all we kind of made that decision that we just want to not not in like a

multi-cam cut hard to the you know to the words right but but definitely in a way that you know like kept us kept us connected with the characters um so this you know we have a drive up and it's a bright sunshiny day and we you know pan over and we see her you know slow-mo shots of her cleaning the window and all this sort of stuff um so that was really just a big classic kind of controlling daylight like we weren't really lighting that scene as much as, you know, just screaming it and we had some, you know, some lifts and things like that just to kind of extend our day and extend the awning over the top of them so that, you know, we could, we could shoot, you know, all the coverage we needed to. Once we actually get inside the, into the tattoo parlour, we actually really broke that scene down because we had, you know, an emotional, one of the most emotional moments in the, in the film, you know, this sort of, conversation between Ruby and Aubrey

and they're really kind of getting to the base of, you know, what her issue is, like what her problem is and she's, you know, her arms died and her dad's left and, you know, we're sort of getting to this moment. In the background while this is going on, there's like a tussle building outside

the window and it's like a bright daylight scene and it's like, what's, you know, what's going on there? And we wanted to shoot it in a way that we could choose when we were focused on what part of it. You know, we didn't want to have to be forced to a rack that we didn't want in post. So what we ended up doing was shooting it with a blue screen

and recording all of our foreground, you know, getting all the emotions, getting all the drama, and then taking them out and filming all of the outside. So we could basically choose the best time of day for our outside work to shoot that. Again, not really lit, just available light, just right time of day. And then obviously our lit, you know, women against the blue screen moment. And then what that really did to us is it kept it subtle. It didn't attract you or distract you from the,

you know, the real emotions that were going on. And then when suddenly someone pulls a gun and there's a pop and the blood splatters across the back wall, it's at such a shop because you just go from this emotional, heartfelt moment into basically a goer fest. And it's like it's a real, you know, it's what, yeah, I think it was really successful, you know, lots of planning to pull it all to get to put it all together.

And it's subtle, but I think it really paid off, you know, with that with that effect, it has on the audience. Yeah. Yeah, that actually brings, how much VFX? Because there's also like, I suppose, stunt work in it. How much of that were you, were you balancing? Were you able to do most of it in camera? We always tried to do everything in camera, even, you know, the initial, the car not being the first, end of the first episode. So the first death we see, you know, we knew that that had to be big.

And we wanted to feel real. So that was a lot of coordination. That was the first thing. Even when I read the script, I was like, how are we, you know, what is this? How do you see? How we get through that, you know. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But of course, it wasn't a day because we had a bunch of other work to shoot.

And we had probably, you know, 20 minutes to shoot that sequence, you know. But we worked it all out. I'd left, you know, like I was filming it in my driveway here, getting my wife to walk around the car. And, you know, like, is this the angle? Is this what we're talking? You know, we wanted to do it as a oner, so it really, you never, if you never cut away, you don't see, you never expect it. You know, like what's going to happen. So the fact that as we walk around the car, and as he walks, he sort of flips them off as he goes past the window.

And as he passes through the, past the A panel, it's kind of a cowboy switch to the stunt guy who then gets taken out by car and thrown through the window and blund and splattered and windshields smash. So it was a real, you know, that was obviously the effect. working with stunks, working with grips, working with camera, you know, everyone had to be really in sync on that day. And even just scheduling, you know, we made sure that I left the B camera operator, Chris Gibbons was there. You know, we had a little Scorpio Mini head that we stuck through the back of the car, you know, vehicles, we had to choose the right vehicle. You know, we sort of had a station wagon that we could actually get the, you know, sort of a crane arm through so that we could do this, basically 180-degree shot

of the guy walking all the way you're in the car, getting taken out and then landing back in the windshield. So it was, yeah, it was a bunch of fun. I think we did it in, they gave us six windshields and I think we did it in four. So, you know, it was like, you know, yeah, it was great. It just, you know, it can work. You know, like if you plan it out, you know,

obviously things can go wrong, but it was a really great sort of pat on the back for everyone to execute that, you know, in time. and not go of us, you know. Counting your shots and windshields is pretty fun. Yeah, it's a constant, it's a constant thing. It's like, how many do you think you're going to need?

You know, I mean, even like the, when we, when we, you know, chainsaw the guy to death, it's like, how many t-shirts do you think we're going to need to chainsaw, you know, and do you need to go every time? You know, yeah, it's, you're always being asked that question. Yeah, always ask for a few more than you need, but, yeah, yeah, I hope you can do it, And that's, what do you do with the extra? Do you sell the windshields back? You're like, hey, we got two more.

You call the wrecking house and just have them take it back. I mean, I don't know. I think probably the vehicles guys have a little, you know, stats or a little stories full of all the things they didn't use. Yeah. Did I read correctly that you were using the module A tuners on this thing? Yeah, yeah. So we used that for, we had this big sequence.

It was actually, I think it was the last thing, or like one of the last things we shot. And it's a scene where Brad, who is sort of Ruby's workmate, you know, he's telling us a story. And this is kind of when we get into this, the curse of it all and the kind of the witchcraft and the, you know. So he's telling us a story which is like, oh, I just went for a few drinks after this work event. And then you see the telling of the story in, you know, it's through his eyes and it's, you know, a nightmare hellscape. You know, so we really wanted it to be a really quite confronting, you know, super wide lens, you know, distorted view. And again, we went back to all of the testing.

We did, you know, it's the anamorphic lenses. We looked at a bunch of other wide angle lenses, but the detuner just happened to give, you know, the effect that we were after, which was keeping him in foreground, like keeping the subject kind of clear, but then, you know, really wonking up the background and really distorting, blurring the lights. We didn't want like a drug effect or, you know, multiple image or things like that. We, you know, we tested a lot of that. as well but it just didn't quite feel right we still wanted to you know let that performer have his have his moment and then we filmed it all on the steady cam so we didn't really know where he was going to go he would spin around and around and we wandering down this street we had to kind of light

the whole street because i mean we knew the the bots that he had to get to but um you know we're shooting it again it's a five hour night so we had to do the sequence where they're walking up to the up to the bar um we shoot the outside of the bar then we go right space inside, shoot little sequence inside, I'm going to pulled everything out, and we come outside for night, and we do this whole walk down, you know, three city blocks. Yeah, it was a lot of fun, but it was, yeah, again, came together really well. Yeah, it's funny. When those, obviously, a handful of years ago when people really started using, like, photo lenses for cinema use, you know, and everything was pretty clean and stuff. There was always like, oh, but some diffusion on it

to take the digital edge off and I was like it doesn't I fell into the trap I was like oh yeah absolutely and the more I used it I was like it just makes it look fuzzy like it doesn't you know take the edge off necessarily it just makes it fuzzy to steal Ellen Curris told me that and I couldn't unsee it and that was like episode six of this pod five years ago I was like oh Ellen she got in my head but like those module A tuners uh did seem to I tested them out and I Do you remember which one you used? Was it like the K, the... It's the L2, I think, is the one I want to say.

It's kind of like the more... Was it the Baltar look on? I think it's the more Baltar, the Boltar version. Yeah. That one definitely had the most effect. Some of them were pretty subtle. And especially the three, I think it was, which was like the sort of anamorphosizer one.

It didn't really, wasn't doing much for me. So we were, you know, we were winding them right up. But I think what's great about them is that you can, put them on your other lens set so you don't have to carry a full set of lenses and you know we we had some budget on this you know what you've never got enough but um you know i think for most productions to actually have to run two full sets of lenses or you know that sort of thing is gets expensive you know to carry that and you're always getting unless you know can you can you can you send a league back or you know you know so having oh gaslo yeah exactly so having a little

a device like that, they can just kind of, you know, if I fuck it up enough, it's not going to take it away. It doesn't feel like you, again, throwing it into a totally different movie, you know, but you can actually use your same glass and, you know, nothing else really changes for the, for the camera assistance or for the, you know, the process. So, yeah, that was really valuable for us. Yeah. And they're not terribly expensive little tools. Like, I'm sure the line producer wasn't like, no. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. You know, I usually ask at the beginning, but I just jump straight into it. But have you, have you been watching anything yourself? You know, the show's been out for a minute. Normally, a lot of times I'll get people on these like breast tours and they're like, I haven't slept. I haven't watched a bit of stuff. So, you know, I watched Nickel Boys the other day. I think, um, good. Yeah, that was, you know, like that was, it's a tough watch. But, you know, they really, they committed to the bit. So I really, you know, yeah, it's, it's. It's. A lot of good stuff in there.

I mean, the other thing I just finished watching that Senna show on Netflix where they used all the volume for the driving stuff. And that was really impressive. Red one? No, Senna. It's the center. Oh, Santa. Oh, oh, oh, I thought it's Santa.

The racing. The racing one, yeah. There was some really great use of the volume in that. I was really impressed by that. You know, again, because they're not trying to make it look hyperreal realistic. They're just, they're embracing, you know, that vintage look, and that's what they were sort of going for, and they're getting macro shots on the eyes. And I saw some of the behind the scenes where they're shaking the guys hauled around. Oh, yeah. That's great.

The headache machine. Like, they looked like they attached a drill with a off weight. Yeah, yeah. Just gave it to them. I had a few friends like DM me that. They're like, is this what it's like now? And I'm like, yeah, kind of. That's filmmaking. I sit in front of a TV and have your head wrenched off. Everything shakes. I actually did just talk to Jomo the other day about nickel boys. And I'm just fascinated by the idea of like, how does a head move? Right?

Like if it's first person, like you could just whip it around or whatever. But not only how does a head move, but how are you watching? You know, on a big screen, it'll get real dizzying if you move quickly. But then on a small screen,

it might feel too slow. And like he feels like like the stroving. know like i feel like they they had to work out they had to do so much for planning for that for that film to to to make it work yeah but i mean i you know i think my comparison like when i started watching it was you know like tree of life i think yeah like that's sort of really um yeah some of that beautiful stuff they do and they're that they can jumping into a real pov like a shallow depth of your long lens pov and then coming back to like you know those on the shoulder or, you know, mounted your,

your head, you're watching the thing. It's, yeah, it was tripping. It was great. Yeah. Yeah, some of those inserts, like, they don't take you out of the idea that you're still POV. They, you know, like,

yeah, I think they, they did a lot of, I think it must have done a lot of it, but I think they must have worked out a lot of that, because so much of it, you know, the cinematography is the edit in so many ways. Yeah. Like, the one that stuck out to me was, like, when he's, like, flipping the,

history book or whatever and he's got the like lynching fucking flip book in there like it was the first time I went oh hey we're actually because I didn't know it was going to be a first person shoot so I'm just you know it was a press screening so I was just like oh shit all right so when it started doing that I was like all right we're not we're not going to sit there and have this be a gimmick it like actually serves the story in a really great way

sure yeah the uh Rose like I was going somewhere with that no that's gone all right so what's do you have uh with between the the last project i spoke to about the totally killer now we're what do you do uh between big shoots are you like a commercial guy traditionally or or i just a bit of commercial but i i've just also done a especially like while the strikes were on last year i went to to europe and do a feature documentary oh a sec called future council so that's um we took eight kids from around the world um who are all very environmental

environmentally conscious and put them on a Y school bus and sort of drove them to Europe and they're fronting up to Nestle and ING bank and kind of really grilling them on there on the environmental policy. So that, you know, so that we, you know, and we shot up, we used like anamorphic lenses and we shot on on the black magics and, you know, we try to really make it as cinematic as we could, you know, for essentially an observational dock, but, you know, we're sort of trying some rainwoods layers and beautiful nature environmental shots and great train work and yeah so that's just that's doing the festival circuit at the moment oh nice dude yeah i i uh i never thought i would be a doc person but i'm on three right now no yeah so now i'm like fascinated and how it's it's funny

you say yellow bus because that's such it like when i hear bus i just think the yellow ones but but that's not how did you get and you took it to europe did you have to import the bus they They had it there, luckily, but then we had to, we converted it so it could run on biodiesel. So it was, you know, it was old kosher for the film. Yeah. If I, if I remember from our last conversation, you are like a black magic guy, right? Yeah, I've done a bunch of, you know, stuff with him since, you know, like I was a 5D guy, I guess like everyone. Like, I came up with film and it was lucky when I was at film school, we were still shooting, you know, on 35, on 16, cutting on Steambacks, all that sort of stuff.

So I was lucky to be, you know, kind of at the end of that process and the start of digital. But when I came out, you know, all the commercials, I was shooting all the music videos were 5D and, you know, Magic Lantern and all that stuff, which was great for what it was. But Penn, it was also, you know, such a pain in the butt because you couldn't grade it, you couldn't push it anywhere. So when I, you know, and obviously being in Australia, I saw those black magic cameras, the little box ones come out really early. And I was just like, this is amazing, you know, like. absolutely shit-ass to sound but the pictures are incredible and it's set up for you know you're shooting raw i think 2.5k raw at that stage and um and you can grade it you can push it around and do it every you like and still fit all of your cannon lenses on there and still get your and a show a depth of field

and uh you know they had a global shutter for a while and that's done and you know but yeah i've just sort of stuck with them over the years not you know not usually as my main camera but um but i'll always have one in in the kit for, you know, if you did a crash housing, you need something to break something over for a shot, you know, we're not going to get that, you know, that overhead shot, you're just not going to make it on schedule. I'll throw a other pipe and put it up there and throw a 14-0 on it, you know, I've sounded been really handy. And again, they're made for posts.

So, yeah, you know, you can grade them to look like whatever your main tamar is really quite easily. Yeah, there was a revelation for me, which was talking to Dan Stoloff, who shot the boys. and he was like sometimes there would be a shot that we couldn't get the Venice they couldn't afford a Rialto for that show so he's like I would just grab my Fuji film XT3 and just pop it up and I was like what just get the shot you know you need the shot and if it's there for you know five seconds or whatever you know no case yeah yeah he said there was like at least one XT3 shot in like every episode there and it's it was his like he didn't rent it you know so I've started putting mine in just in case yeah Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean, it's better to have another camera body and not use it than they didn't not have it. Yeah.

And I assume in Australia, once you're born, they just give you a black magic. They're like, here you go. Carrier the culture. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, those things are. Have you gotten your hands on that large format one? The 17, no, no, I think they're still the 18.

Yeah, Greg Fraser's got one. Of course it goes. But, yeah, no, I haven't seen those. I think they're still, you know, at that early testing stage. But, yeah, excited to see. I guess the other question with that, which is the same as, you know, the 265, we did a little test demo of that. And it's like, how much data are they going to, you know,

to try handle that? Yeah, I'm all about getting that, getting those great images. But the repercussions of that, and even on a moderately sized feature, you've really got to kind of push to, you know, And to be shooting raw, you've got to have those discussions every time. And when they start saying it's X amount of terabytes per minute, yeah, people start getting a bit worried. So, yeah, I think something's got to change in that side of things.

The way we manage the data to, you know, to really make those viable. Well, two things come to mind. One is, you know, one thing about digital that people often kind of bemoan is like, oh, the pace, you know, people just roll forever. And when we were shooting film, it was a little more, not diligent, intentional. It's like, well, if you're going to, if it's a

terabyte a minute, you know, I bet they'll slow you down. Let's, let's not shoot the rehearsal. Let's actually. Yeah, I don't think so. I think, you know, everyone's so used to that now. It's going to be, it's how to put that, you know, back in the box. You know, people are so used to to rolling and,

and, yeah, that discipline of like building up to the take and all that sort of thing. You know, there's very few directors who still, are interested in that you know like stunts and things like that are different and you know obviously what they originally when the Alexa 65 came out it was designed to be for

plates and designed to be for you know bigger projects so I think that'll always be a go but I'm waiting to see when you see you know if they suddenly bring out you know a version of the 17K like magic that you can shoot on little SSD drives I'm like come yeah let's go for it

you know but if it's going to be you know I mean I've already got a thousand drives all my projects that you know there's drives everywhere you know try to find the right project at the right time it's almost impossible so yeah ranking all that data is going to be a big deal yeah i know that uh sea gate just came out with i think they're like 68 terabyte drives like they're hard drives they're spinning drives but they are boost i just had to uh i finally hit the cap on my little in homes raid setup so i had to all those and unfortunately my my housing can only do 20 terabytes so I'm only at 140

I've only got 140 terabytes in my house you're doing good yeah I never throw anything I mean like I know it's kind of you're not supposed you're supposed to like charge the client for like going back and finding it but it's like I got everything since high school like you know but then again the XL2 actually that's not true DV was pretty heavy TV was a and maybe it's it now. Well, that hour fucking flew by. It's great. I literally looked down and I went, oh, no.

All right. Well, it was, it's a really fun show that you've made, man. It was, it was really cool to nor, you know, it sucks when I get to have to interview someone for a TV show. And it's like, I don't have 12 hours, but I had already seen it because my girlfriend was like, here, I'm watching this. Okay, cool. You know, so that's great. Yeah, and they've been doing a lot of, you know, publicity on like the talk shows and things like that. So I think that's kind of their at market, you know, they're trying to.

find the young female audience. Yeah. Fingers crossed, it all goes well and you get to do it again. Yeah, I look forward to it, man. Well, definitely, I'd love to talk to you about the future council if you can give me like a screener or something like that. Yeah, for sure. I'll keep you in the loop as it happens.

Cool. Appreciate it, man. Well, again, it was great seeing you again and have a good one. Well, do. Cheers, Kenny. All the best, man. Take care, brother. Frame and Reference is an Albot production, produced and edited by me, Kenny McKeigh.

Millen. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so by going to frame and refpod.com and clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated. And as always, thanks for listening.