Frame & Reference Podcast - 179: "The Brutalist" Cinematographer Lol Crawley, BSC

Episode Date: March 3, 2025

OSCAR WIN EARLY EPISODE HOT-DROP! This week I'm proud to say I've got Lol Crawley, BSC on the program to talk about his work on the absolutely incredible film "The Brutalist", which just nabbed him an Oscar win!This was scheduled to come out on Thursday like normal but, c'mon...Enjoy!F&R Online ► https://www.frameandrefpod.comSupport F&R ► https://www.patreon.com/FrameAndRefPodWatch this Podcast ► https://www.YouTube.com/@FrameAndReferenceProduced by Kenny McMillanWebsite ► https://www.kennymcmillan.comInstagram ► https://www.instagram.com/kwmcmillan

Hello, and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. This won a special edition as it's being released right now. This is my interview with Lull Crawley, BSC, the cinematographer who shot The Brutalist, and he just now won an Oscar. So this episode was supposed to come out this Thursday. I'm going to release it now to celebrate. I actually got to meet him with the Kodak Awards a couple days ago, which is pretty cool. And, yeah, of course, this was recorded a couple weeks ago, so no Oscar talk or anything.

But congratulations to Loll, very well deserved, and enjoy the episode. Have you been watching anything recently? Um, not, not super recently. I've been doing so much press. I've been literally just got back from Europe and stuff. Um, um, I watched, um, this film, I'm still here, which, uh, oh, sure. I'm, I thought that was like, extraordinary. And I think it's a, you know, I think it's a really great year.

I think there's some really, um, yeah, some really good movies, uh, out. So, but yeah, you know, just trying to, I'll be, I'm looking forward to getting back into, you know having some more time yeah that that does seem to be the common theme because i try to ask everyone that because it's like maybe someone will mention something i haven't heard or whatever but uh especially with during promo or if someone's shooting something else it's like i don't have what are you talking about i don't have time yeah yeah even pause a film haven't yeah it'd be nice to go back to get to the cinema i mean i was just at the rotterdam film festival you know and i you know um i didn't get to see anything i mean i was there i was there for

this Robbie Mueller Award, but it would have been very nice to have caught a few movies, but unfortunately, no. Yeah, congrats on that, by the way. That's... Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yeah, he was, remains a real inspiration, and so it was a very heartfelt award to receive, you know?

Yeah. Well, I mean, Lord knows you deserve it for this one. I was able to catch it. It is, I will say, it is a, it is a, it is, uh, I was telling me. my friends when I left the film. I was like floating leaving that movie because I was like this feels, I kept just telling people like, you have a we look at the godfather. That's how we're going to look at this film. Like it has, it has the same vibe for me. But Lord, it looks great. But you do have to commit. You know, I got there at 1130 and I think I left at 4.30. So it is.

It is a day. The intermission is perfect. It was like the moment I started getting a little fidgety. It was like intermission. And I was like, that's time. Perfect. You know, and I Shlady. Yeah, it looks fantastic. Thank you. I guess we should just get into it because like I,

there's kind of a lot to talk about. I wanted to know, because obviously it's not like a huge budget. Yeah. I think so. I saw the math. Someone pointed out that like, Red One,

that's Santa movie for Amazon, costs more than like all of the movies that have been nominated for Oscars combined. Oh, wow wow that's a that's a that's a that's cause for a discussion isn't it yeah well it's yeah i think it was like 250 250 for red one and then you made yours for what like 10 10 yeah yeah yeah and i think obviously eight people seem to really love a 24 is like a distributor and stuff but um they've created their own like brand around it kind of like criterion but i i think

audiences now are uh really pushing for films that back in the day you had smaller budget films studios weren't as nitpicky I think people are recognizing that that's the movie they want to see

and not things that are like overly managed not that over you know I love a Marvel film just as much as anyone yeah yeah I mean I think there's room for everything but it's it's it's you know

it's if it's if you know digital spectacle filmmaking is the choice and it's like well okay let's have that let's have a conversation about red yeah it's i i like it the whole point of this was just to say

what you were saying like it's a good year for film i agree i think there's a lot of amazing films that have come out this year that are that are just stunning and it's it's fun to it's fun to go to the cinema again and not yeah experience the same the sameness you know yeah so what for for um the brood list what was the pre-production like because you know i Obviously, cinematography podcast, we got to talk about choosing to shoot VistaVision, because that's like an interesting. Yeah. Because in my head, I was like, you could have gone 16 if you were looking for like a look or you could have gone full IMAX, although not on your budget problem. And then, you know, like, did you have to find those cameras?

Did you have to like retrofit them or how did that go? And then also just, you know, it's such an epic, but looking back on it in my head, you don't have like a ton of locations. you know so how are you maximizing what you shoot for like a month how are you maximizing that time so yeah so okay so it was my third film with Brady

and we'd always shot film I mean all childhood of the leader Vox Lux and the Brutalist they all share a sort of kind of commonality in some regards there's definitely a you know it's like an unofficial trilogy in some regards

and Brady is sort of exercising certain ideas and themes and things he wants to articulate across all three films, I feel. As a consequence, film has always been the chosen medium, you know. And so, you know, we've always shot 35, and then for this one, Brady was like, I really want to explore the idea of VistaVision, you know, and the arguments for Vist Division, other, you know, like any accusations of it being a gimmick or being an affect, you know, an affectation or whatever you might regard, how you might regard it.

I think, I think it, the Vista vision camera system earns it, earns its place in this movie because, you know, it's, it's a film about architecture and Vistas and, I mean, essentially the Vista vision format existed in the 1950s. and a lot of the movie is set in the 1950s. So Brady was like, well, I want a camera system, you know, from that time, you know. You know, Hitchcock famously used it on, you know, Vertigo and I think north by northwest, maybe. So yeah, it's, so that's kind of how, that was the original idea for it. And I did some testing with the Vist Division format and then realized, well, I mean, I guess we knew, but not to,

to the extent that we sort of discovered the, the increased field of view, you know, so basically it's like if you want a wider field of view, you have to go on a wider lens with the Vista vision because the NG area is, it's like, it's the original full frame. Yeah, exactly, exactly. It's like a stills camera pulls through. It's still 35 mil, so that's one thing that some people get confused about. But I know, you know, so it's still 35 mil, but you're pulling it through. horizontally apurfs at a time.

So yeah, it's the original full frame. And as a consequence, the bigger the nag or the bigger the sensor area, as we as we know, the wider the field of view. So it's kind of like taking the blinkers off. And then the aspect ratio of Vistavision, its native aspect ratio is 1.5

to 1, I think. So close to that. So given that we frame 166, it made more sense to use VistaVision. Not that we could have afforded 65 on this budget, but it made more sense if we wanted a larger

nag area to really use the Vista Vision you know yeah well the the look there was something that was fascinating

about is one I've thought for a long time that VistaVision should come back because again the idea that we're all clamoring for these full frame digital cameras

it's like we have it on film you know you can do that and there's not really a you know I was talking to Hoita about Oppenheimer I almost said

the optimist and he was talking about you know Hyamax and grain and all that but even with this division there wasn't necessarily a strong

grain character however I did notice that you guys left in a lot of there was no like dust busting in post a lot of the like and I was wondering why you chose to leave all that there

I think I mean it was kind of Brady's ultimate sort of like desire to I think be unapologetic really about about the film aspect and about the I mean we certainly didn't add dust but we he wanted it to feel like a print even if you saw the DCP you know I think it wanted to feel like it to feel like film and he'd always early on he'd spoke about this idea of it kind of being almost like having an archival quality or even like a bit of a patchwork quality, like embracing some of the inconsistencies or differences.

I mean, as a DP, that's a little tricky because the whole idea of doing a DIY on the movie is that you're sort of ironing out the inconsistency. So trying to find that balance is interesting. But I think we were successful in trying to like embrace the accidents or embrace the embrace the kind of, you know, embrace a certain spontaneity and what things are offering up. And the very fact of shooting on film, of course, you know what you're doing, or I know what I'm doing in terms of exposing the film and how I'm treating the film and push processing the film and how much I like. And, I mean, I've shot 12 movies on film. So that's, I've got better at

it as, you know, the more that I've done. But you're still, you're still not handholding the neg through the bath you know and so anyone that's taken a photograph on film and had the there's a real joy in those prints coming back you know where you actually kind of finally see what the alchemical process has delivered you know and I think I think that's something something we've embraced in many ways

across the films together is that is that not being not not relinquishing a certain amount of control that doesn't might mean being careless or sloppy or unprepared, it just means being open to the moment when something can, you know, transcend as far as Brady and I have been able to take it. Not all filmmakers operate in that way, but I personally am drawn to that sort of philosophy. Yeah, you know, I was just thinking about that the other day, how digital cinematography and just, you know,

sort of modern I don't know corporate art I guess not that all art is corporate but a lot of corporations are on art is that the shooting film allows for there still to be an element of surprise

and wonder for experts you know like if you're an expert at something that the kind of joy potentially can go away because you're you know you're you're learned in it but then shooting film always has this element of like all right It's still Christmas, you know.

I know, I know. And then, excuse me, you're also relying on other experts, which is really good. You know, people working in the lab or the colorists who they're not creating the movie for you, but they're finessing your vision, you know. And I think that's kind of what it is. It's about, you know, all being on the same page and calibrated together to produce this thing, you know. And I think, you know, to your point, every single frame of film is different. Every silver halide is dancing in a different way.

And so there's this continual sort of shifting, whereas, whereas creating on a digital image, it's, yeah, there's a completely different capturing process, you know. And I mean, Tarantino has spoken about it recently, or at least I've discovered what he was saying recently. You know, the magic of cinema for him is the persistence of vision, the optical illusion. You are what, it's like a flicker book. You are watching an optical illusion. This isn't actually moving. And of course, you can say there's a version of that with digital, but it's not the same thing, you know.

Well, and it doesn't feel the same. And also, I do think, going back to the idea of like what audience is like, and delighting audiences is like they know because of just our you know you've been promoting this thing forever because of how available the filmmakers are now people are aware of when you

shoot on films and people I think audiences appreciate that because it's a little harder you know and they're like I want to see someone put some effort even though the effort doesn't really change all that much between them but they know it's like there's I guess state

you know the film can explode or whatever well not yeah and it i tell you what it's um you know there's there's far more sleepless night shooting film yeah than digital and it's it is it is interesting because you one could make the argument okay if you shoot on film so if you shoot on digital you're on set and you're seeing the image and you're like okay collectively darker darker bolder interesting darker doesn't work that way i've always made the more bold choices um and and in in some regards maybe the the strongest cinematography on film you know and it's it's kind of interesting because it is slightly counterintuitive that argument but it it's that's how it's just resulted for me you know i've uh but i've had some very very sleepless nights

and it's like you know it's like take all your time and money you know take take everything put it through this i i got this and then you're like oh oh i don't i don't got this and and it and it's a lot of responsibility, you know, it's, um, you need, but you also need a director, uh, and producers that if you're going to expose the way that we do and you're going to, you know, like you're really going to be, you know, it's the way Harris Sivides used to shoot, who was an inspiration and, you know, you're really going to be on the, the edge, which I think where the good stuff is, if you fall in and you get it wrong, you need, you, you know, you don't want to be fearful of a backlash.

You need support and to be like, it's fine, no worries. We'll redo it or maybe we don't, you know, like, whatever it is. But you need to be in it together and trust, you know, if you're really exposing the film in that way. Yeah. Did you guys in the grade, I was thinking about this because, you know, film, you know, the artistic intent is built into the negative in many ways. but now we do have very robust post-production tools that regardless of capture medium you can do interesting stuff were you I assume you shot 5219 yes yeah and the only one left well we did the 250 as well my main my main my main stocks are the 250 daylight and the 500 T

so what what if anything were you doing in the grade to kind of aside from just like balancing but were you were you like imparting a look on it at all or no i wouldn't say imparting a look um i i do very much uh i try to lock it in in camera as much as possible you know um and uh so i you know i percentage wise i don't know i mean i think we're a good 85 when when i go in or in the evening with matte the colorist and often with Brady as well and our editor, David, you know, we see the image and part of it is, you know, celebratory about, because we're very happy with what we're getting, but then a percentage is critical as well, okay, how, do we do we like this, can we do better,

or, you know, it's that constant calibration, you know, keeping it, keeping us all on the straight and narrow, I suppose, you know, just to just to keep checking in and making sure that you know they're on the right track um but yeah most of the time i'm pretty pleased with what's there sometimes i'm like oh okay it's darker than i intended or you know marty our colorist is is then pulling up the the image and then we might have more grain so then we might use tools to de grain it you know there have also been times we've added grain and things um in shots just for consistency but um you know the important thing to say is that marty turnic was our colorist throughout he didn't start as our final colorist. He started as our Daily's colorist. And then when we

realized that his taste and expertise were aligned, you know, it just was a no-brainer to, you know, to use him. And, and so really it was, yeah, I mean, I would, I would describe it as like the process is finessing the intent of the photography, you know, and he understood the intent of the photography. So, um, like I've never shot a film where I've gone into the DIY and it's been like, okay, what's the film going to look like? Right. Um, because I've done so much work with the director beforehand that the colorist is not involved in, you know, so it's like, you know, it's, um, yeah, it's really a process of kind of like really knowing what the look is to a very high percentage. But then what's really important about having that relationship, especially

shooting on film is. I've had other, I've had other experiences on film where I've had a very alarmed phone call at the end of the day because the printer lights, which are, you know, where the film is supposed to be sitting, exposure-wise, are way off, you know. So you end up with a very thing negative and then the printer lights are way low. What was good with Marte working with him very early on and him understanding the aesthetic and the taste was that I wasn't really getting those alarming phone calls. You know, he might say, oh, you know, you should, you want to come in tonight because I'm, you know, we should take a look at this. Let's just make sure we're on the, you know, which is, which is a much better way of doing it.

You know, you have, you know, it's better for your sleep, you know, that you're not having that alarm. So he was, he was, he was terrific in that regard. Yeah. And, but I think it's fair to say that we approached it with as much of a photochemical process as, as as possible not you know obviously it wasn't a photochemical process it was a digital intermediate but what i mean by that is you don't start by putting shapes on eyes and tracking things and all i mean all this stuff is amazing and you can do it um but i think if you overdo it the sense of the kind of uh of of the origination on film it starts to feel a little overworked you know

you have what i think it's best to start as if it's a photochemical grade So you're doing everything holistically across the image and then do other passes. And I also, with the DIY, I like to work quite quickly in the sense that you do a, I often find if you bump on something, the answer lies ahead. So if you, you know, so if you're struggling with something, move on and then it will reveal itself. And so I like to do kind of a broad pass through and then another pass that's more maybe two or three passes for a movie, you know.

Yeah. I mean, even with digital, I find that. to your point about like origination on film or whatever, just the sort of quote unquote cinematic look is less touched because like the second you start pulling out skin tones from the background and shifting them too aggressively. You're like nothing looks like that. Sometimes you have to,

but usually nothing looks like that. It's interesting when I work with colorists that the happiest I am is when, and coming back to this photochemical idea, sometimes you'll get down a road and then they just go, hang on me and they just jump it and they throw it out and they go right back to the beginning again

because the most successful image for me is not one that has a node upon a node upon a node upon a node and suddenly you're like twisting it to get to and there's that, you know, the recognition that's a much simpler line from A to B that that's an interesting one.

Yeah. So for the a lot of the film has this kind of greenish tone that I found very pretty was that found in the grade or is that done in is that just the film's reaction

to certain lights? I don't know. I mean, it wasn't intentional. It's sort of the, I mean, you're not the first to have mentioned it. I mean, I think it is the film's reaction to certain lights.

And then maybe just the alchemy, you know, the alchemical process um i don't remember having conversation i spoke to marty about this as well i don't remember having conversations where we were intentionally pushing in more green i think uh i mean there are certain points like the where attila where um lazlo meets his cousin atila off the bus in i look at that now and i can i not you know i can recognize that um but then a lot of it just um yeah just i don't know just kind of felt like that's where the where the scenes should sit, you know?

Yeah. Well, the only reason I ask is that if you did something, I'm like, good, I'm stealing it. That's half this podcast is just me stealing ideas. What else was there? Because I'm trying to, I'm trying to stay linear. If given my own devices, I will jump between topics and not, oh, I'm happy to jump. How do you want to do it? Yeah. I guess, I guess this is a bit of a jump.

when you were talking about the aspect ratio and stuff one thing I really loved about your photography on this film is there's a lot of frames within frames and I was wondering if you could kind of walk me through the mindset there of like was that like super intentional? Is that just kind of your thing or what was that approach? It's kind of my thing. I mean, you know, like I know Brady and I had sort of referenced

Hamishoy, the painter Hamishoy at times. And I think, you know, for childhood of a leader, the first film, I think it's probably owes more of a debt to Hammershoy in some regards. I mean, it's set in Europe, and it probably feels more of a European movie than the brutalist, of course. But I think it's my taste, you know, and what I gravitate towards. You know, like I obviously don't want to do the same thing on every, every. movie, but I think there are certain signatures, you know, Oteer theory is based on the kind of

idea of a directorial signature or at least a worldview and an idea of wanting to say something across an uver of films. And I think to a certain degree that's inescapable for a cinematographer as well, you know, like, you know, there are some things I just can't do, which I'm okay with, you know, If the choices are sort of, you know, a jack of all trades or being guilty of repeating motifs, I'd probably embrace the latter, you know. I mean, I think there's, so I don't know, like what I like to do is to find, once we have the locations, I really like to work in real locations, I like restrictions, I don't, you

know, if I'm not able to move a wall, I can still find. the scene and find the shot you know so when we had the find the locations i like to go there on my own without the director without it and just have it's the only time i'm in that space when no one else exists you know in in that thing you know every other time it's a tech scout or it's shooting or something and for me i haven't really spoken about this um in uh for with regards to this film but it's so important to me because it's like sometimes you when you're on set, you're trying to find something and there's lots of things going on

and distractions. If you can spend time in a set, or in a location rather, and study the light for a certain period of time on your own, you can lock yourself into certain frames, or at least have them as your version of storyboards or shot lists, that you

know work, you know, whereas it's hard to find that where there's a ton of people in front of the frame or you know, occupying the space. And so in those instances, is maybe I do find myself kind of like, oh, this is interesting. Like, I can't move a wall, but what if we shoot through this doorway, or maybe a scene feels like it lends itself to a certain voyeurism or a distance from the characters, you know.

And yeah, often I'm just, I think I'm often just trying to, if we go to a location out, I'm like, I see a set of stairs and I'll run up it and look up there. Like, I'll try and examine every single angle of what's there and then take the images. and then I'll come, I'll revisit the script and I'll be like, is that applicable, you know, does this feel motivated and, you know, so yeah, exploration of the examination of the, of the, of the space really. Well, that's such a smart idea too because like, there's a book, I think, I can't remember who wrote it.

I used to have this guy's name, Stephen Coulter, about flow states and how, uh, when the basically beginning of a flow state, it's a cyclical process and when you finally hit flow usually comes from inspiration from like stopping,

you know, when you like walk up to go do something else and you're like, there it is. And so just wandering around in a room and kind of not having distractions and just kind of playing with your, I shouldn't say playing with yourself,

but by yourself. You know, it's so smart. I remember I was talking to Eric, Messerschmitt and he was saying how like there's only like probably three good angles in any given set or room so just being able to sit there and find the actual good ones and not like the most economically viable you know um uh schedule wise you know it's it's tricky if you if you have a film like the humans that i shot you know which all takes place in a new york apartment

you know it's that balance between okay is repetition in interesting and important because there's a repetition to the behavior of the characters or is that is that an integral idea or is it a weakness you know because for an audience you're you just returning to the same angles you know i mean for that movie the humans there was a lot of frames within frames i mean there there was like two doorways that were shooting through and so the scene was right in the in the back of the the frame and things like that so it's um yeah it's it's it's interesting i mean i i i definitely gravitate towards these kind of discussions over the technical, you know, and the idea of storytelling and how, you know, where the camera is placed in terms like, who is the, who is

the camera, is it, you know, subjectivity versus objectivity and how, you know, all this stuff that it's just, you know, obviously like, because then you're like, it's also, you might find a frame that you like aesthetically, but it might not serve that scene well, you know. Yeah. And that's always a bummer. Then you just have to take a photo, you know? That's a behind-the-scenes photo. Yeah, exactly.

Do you shoot? Are you a photographer by jeans? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't, I don't, I was having this conversation about shooting on set. I would love to come away with a whole loat from a movie and have all these additional photographs. But I find I'm so focused in the moment that I... For me, they're two different things. And I'm sort of like so intense on producing the 24 frames every second that I don't sit back and sort of like put a different head on to do this.

You know, so it's, I'd like to be able to. Maybe I'll get better at it. But I, yeah, I would like to do more. Have more of those memories, you know. Well, and then you can pull a Frazier and release a book, coffee table book. yes yeah yeah right um

you know again when I was talking to Hoyta I was like hey so all these behind the scenes photos you got this like like a are you going to like release a book he goes oh no that's just to check the light I show you know Nolan and then delete it

oh that's a very expensive like Polaroid you know oh yeah yeah yeah so is it but this is so this is a lyca digital is used yeah I thought it was film right oh interesting yeah well that's yeah that's what they used to do isn't it with polaroids you know take a polaroid of the you know and then and then as a reference you know now we have EL zones although I'm still a spot meter guy I still yeah no me too especially on film you know because

most of the time also my my incident meter um tells me to go home you know like there is no light so I'm then, oh, uh-huh, uh-huh. So I then, I spot reading, as long as I'm getting, you know, two stops under on a face. It's like, I don't know. Like it's, yeah, it's just where I tend to sit the negative. Yeah. Do you, um, do you find that you shoot, I assume, do you do like commercial work and that kind of stuff on it?

Yeah. Uh, I assume that's normally digital. Uh, do you expose your digital negative, so to speak, uh, differently than film? Or is it all kind of the same brain, for you. No, I mean, I think, you know, the humans I spoke about how we shot digitally. And we, I work with a lot where it's like, you know, a stop or stop and a half under. And I'm trying to like, trying to find some way of like, I'm always, when we shoot film, we always distressed the film. And by that, I mean, we're under exposing it and push

process it and trying to get this, trying to take the modernity, even out of modern stocks, you know, for this period thing we're trying to explore. So it becomes much more like pictorialist photography or an impression of something, like a dream of a dream of a. So we're always trying to kind of like do that with it. With digital, that's even harder, of course,

to try and achieve because the starting point has its, just has a, you know, I mean, I try not to run towards the 6K and the 8Ks and things like that. You know, I mean, I'm really excited. by like you know the photography of like the holdovers and things like that i mean i think like it's always a really beautiful looking film can you know and it's shot digitally um so often i'm trying to sort of like pull up or or embrace digital grain or or uh you know you know whatever

you know digital sort of like noise i guess um i mean i think i i mean it's so sad that harris passed away when he did because i think you know harris similes was like could have you know I'm sure he would be coming up with some really amazing looks on digital, you know. I think I'm always just trying to find, I mean, you know, everyone's trying to do it with old glass and whatever, but it's like trying to find some way of just putting in the alchemy back in, you know, the sort of unpredictable qualities or the kind of something that feels a little bit more like life, you know, into a, I mean, digital cameras are beautiful in their own way, but there's invariably a little bit of a sterility because each frame is not alive, you know, in a different way to the previous

frame, you know, so I think we're trying to always do something that, I mean, I do think it's interesting that like, like, with the show the OA, I shot digitally, we were really trying to like. I love that show. Right. Oh, thank you. I shot the first season of it. Oh, that's so cool. I should have looked up your IMDB.

I do think there's something really interesting like with the Sony A7S was it that came out where there was a whole you can still find it but there was like a promotional short that was all shot under moonlight you know there was this stuff on the images on the beach I mean I almost kind of like really want to you know lean into digital

for the you know use it for the things you can't use film for you know it's like really take it to its end's degree and I would still really love to kind of shoot a film that was shot digitally but was done all under very very very low light but it's always still low light

but you know something that um just I think digital comes into its own when it's when it's struggling you know and um yeah so that you know I was just talking to Faden about a complete unknown and he was that was one of the reasons why he

shot on the Venice was because they could shoot 12,800 at a deeper stop at night. Yeah, I heard that. I heard that yesterday. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he had, he just had, you can watch the behind the scenes footage. It's just one of those Roscoe dash domes. And then you'll see the behind the scenes.

He told me that, you know, he had the dimmer and sometimes it would just be off. But in the behind the scenes photos, you see a grip with this thing on a pole following Timmy shallamee down the road. And it's clearly off. Yeah, yeah, interesting. Interesting. Yeah, I mean, it's a beautiful-looking film. And, yeah, I think it's, I think we're all seeking that kind of struggle, you know, and I don't, you know, I just mean for the, for the, there's something interesting when

the technology, whether it's film or digital, whether the technology struggles a little bit. I think it makes the audience just work a little harder, where everything isn't suddenly presented and present and offered up, you know. I think the most, you know, I think the interesting images are when the eye is having to kind of search around and work a little harder yeah I you know that does not now I've got three topics that I got but the to that exact point I noticed a lot of your very diffuse light feels like it's fighting to get through whatever fabric is in front of it and I was just like yes I like it you know I do want to get to that a second but to your point about the

holdovers I spoke to Igel about that because he's really cool and I just DM'd I left the movie I didn't even know he shot it. I was like, oh, I DM'd him. So you want to come back on the show? He's like, yeah. But he was saying that to your point about having to re-grain parts of the brutalist, he tested a bunch of different film stocks, and he found that 5219 was too clean. And so they were going to have to re-grain it anyway, even if they shot 16. So he was like, you know what, let's just shoot digital and do it all in post because like they would end up having to do it on film anyway. Interesting. I was like, that's fascinating.

Because, yeah, the film was on the table. And he was like, it was too modern. That's really interesting. I didn't know that. I didn't know that bit. That's great. Yeah. But earlier I said I like stealing from people. What do you feel that you've stolen from Harris?

I think the idea of lighting the room and lighting the space and not, you know, and allowing, giving a freedom to the actors and the performance and the director at that point. I think the idea of being bold. I mean, birth, you know, you're in Central Park and it looks like a Peter Broigel painting. You know, it's like, I think just searching for the same ideas, this idea of kind of like pictorialist photography, you know, of the early 20th century, you know, this like a non-literal version of image. you know um and um you know i there's also you know like like i mentioned robby muller and anthony dod mantle and robbie ryan and um i mean there's different things i mean i definitely feel like they're my tribe that those cinematographers but there's also different like with robbie ryan for example for me it's not about his lighting it's about his operating with the

with the actors, you know, and, and, uh, I get a lot of that, you know, and, I mean, and also his, the way he's exposed to the negative, but, you know, like, Wuthering Heights that he, that he, that he shot for, um, for Andrew Arnold, you know, it's like a wonderful, wonderful example of that where all just kind of like, it's just so beautifully connected, or American honey, like beautifully, beautifully connected to the audience, to the, you know, like being this almost vessel between the performance and the, on the audience. And in that moment between action and cut is this incredible kind of like connection

and response sort of like lyricism to the camera work, you know. So I don't know, I, you know, I think they're all, I think there's a connection between a lot of these a lot of these cinematographers that I like. I gravitate more towards that than the sort of like, than the classical imposition of, or imposition like,

but the classical kind of crafting of lighting a scene every single time, you know, like I, you know, I, sometimes I do, but it's, it's on a scene by scene rather than this idea of that every scene needs my lighting stamp upon it, you know? Well, that's a great transition to, because I did want to talk about the lighting. Obviously, in a lot of scenes, it seems to just be direct sunlight or at least a, you know, kind of a direct, fixture if they're indoors, but I really loved the interplay between the very hard light and the softer stuff. Normally, I'm a little more vague, but I thought

watching the film, I was like, hold on, I have time to actually, I wanted you to walk me through the lighting for the diner scene where he gets pulled off the coal pile. Yeah. Lighting that, and then the first dinner scene, you know,

with everyone around the table in in what's his face is house Van Buren's house Oh Van Burence house When When um Do you mean when as you bet No

When he's it's just him Yeah Because I think those are both Um Scenes that everyone ends up being You know people around the table And then people at a diner But also

I liked like the little Car reflections And I was like that either though that was added or that was an accident. That's great. I'm so glad you picked up on that. So, yeah, that dinah scene, both those scenes you mentioned are examples where we've crossed shot the coverage, you know, with two cameras, which is something we sort of rarely

do. But it was really just important for the performance, I think, to do that, to serve the purpose. And so I'm willing to compromise a certain lighting control in order to do that. And saw lighter, I think, was an influence, strong influence for those diner moments, where we sort of, we had sort of steamed up the windows and put spritz on the windows. And, you know, and yeah, I'm glad you picked up on the lighting of the car because it was this idea that sunlight was skipping off windscreens and then sort of scudding across. the scene and I really love the idea of like lighting but having the lighting feel feeling like exact accidental or motivated like I remember like you know if you're in the back of a car

sometimes you're going down a highway or like a motorway in the UK and then as you pass under these lights the street lights you know that kind of almost like a reverse effect happens where you see the light going oh you know tumbling or crossing the the interior of the car seat roof of the of the car and I love all that you know it's great because it's like I'm just like oh how on earth am I going to recreate that

and then some of that happened in white noise as well and it's like it's interesting it's like this idea of the accidental but then trying to recreate the accidental if that makes sense so yeah that happened in there and then the the scene in of Van Buren

like again was maybe even three cameras I can't remember but there was a lot of coverage that we needed to do and so it becomes this sort of mathematical exercise of like okay how do we work our way around this getting all the angles we need keeping on the same

eye lines matching the lenses you know and then I think we left is it the scene where where they have a large dinner party before before he it's like a Christmas party yeah I think

where Van Buren's at the head of the table and he's talking. And, yeah. And so we shot all of that and then we, Brady, wanted the scene to be into cut when the sort of, when his Jewish heritage

is being sort of examined and spoken about, that in order to convey this kind of awkwardness, Brady also weren't to be able to cut to other areas of the house where people are sort of touching their ear or their jewelry or something. So we were then left, we left a camera behind to get these additional.

And I think they were shot in slow-mo as well to give them a slight dreamlike quality. So yeah, and that was really just about lighting the space, pushing in, pushing in most of the lighting from outside the room. And then trying to find a balance between the tungsten and the daylight. So you had this warm, blue kind of quality going, or this cyan-y, and then the, the, then the candle light and the practical light. So yeah, it was, you know, once we'd actually just lock the scene and figured out the angles, it was then, you know, fairly, you know, it was just a fairly straightforward process of trying to work out how do we then carve this up that's beneficial for the actors.

So we're not, we're on the right people at the right times in terms of where their performance is sitting, you know. So, yeah, it kind of becomes an exercise at that point. Yeah. So for the Van Buren household kind of in general, obviously there's a few night scenes, but were you pretty much just, like, what was the balance between light coming in through the windows and getting, you know, through the shears and stuff and units on the ground? Yeah, I think, I think in general, I, again, like this idea of lighting the space,

even though you've got incredibly technically proficient actors, I kind of want them to not, I don't want to limit them too much. You know, like I remember seeing this early photography lighting book, cinematography lighting book when I was learning how to light. And there was like a photo of Merrill Streep. And it was obviously a close up,

but there was just like outside of the frame. There was just everything going on. And I came from a tradition of working with non-actors and owing a debt to a certain naturalism. So I think I've, you know, it's evolved for me, but I think I've always, that's always been my starting point, I think, is try to kind of like less is more, you know what I mean, try to just not bring everything in and all this. So, so I think, yeah, most of the time I try to like the space and, and then maybe like,

I don't know, 75% either hit either up in the ceiling. so the actors aren't aware of it too much or off the set and then I'll have maybe 25% of smaller fixtures, mostly LED now or just because they're quicker and cooler to work with and change the color temperature quickly without changing gels. So yeah, it's kind of, it's that thing. It's like, okay, the heavy lifting is done outside of the set or as I say in the ceiling or with,

practical fixtures and then I'll sort of supplement it with other with other fixtures on set and the ceiling I assume it's just for like kind of an ambient fill kind of yeah although you know like in childhood of a leader I distinctly remember we had these big spaces and we had these very unusual vaulted ceiling so in in some you know which we'd never really see but it gave you all this space to be able to work with so we had like two pancakes like this in the ceiling so that when we're shooting this way we brought this one down in level and a stronger backlight. You know, so you could ping pong between the two.

You know, I think it's important. Like, you know, there's a difference between illuminating a scene and lighting it, you know? And the lighting of a scene is crafting it and shaping it and denying light and, you know, having your traditional sort of backlight or rim light, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, illuminating a scene is literally just,

you know, having enough light to stop. So, you know, I'll obviously try to craft as much as possible, you know. Do you find that, you know, LED has certainly gone through the ringer when it first came out as dog shit, but do you find that film reacts to LED in a different way than digital? Not in a way that I'm consciously thinking about on set, you know. I mean, I think the colorists will find, you know, maybe find more. Have a different opinion?

Yeah, you know, obviously, not that they're struggling with it, but they'll be making those adjustments maybe before I even come in and see the dailies of an evening, you know, maybe the trainer. But I think that happened much earlier when color temperature was harder to, there were certain casts and things. But my experience is these things have become so refined now that, You know, and so, so, yeah, so technically precise that, no, I don't, yeah, I mean, I think the thing that's hardest is trying to keep track of all these things, you know, like I used to

know with Houston fixtures and HMI's where I was at with these things. Now it's like, you know, an Aladdin or a Sputnik or a thing, and it's like, I can't, like, what was that fixture again, you know? And so I think in that regards, you're really reliant on your gaffers to kind of like, a, aware what's out there and be uh sort of can you know sort of be able to sort of express what they can do and communicate with you that you know what what what they're able to achieve you know i found uh i was on this documentary recently that required that all the interviews we do match um on like a solid background and uh i was like i was second unit and uh every time

we would go in and do a new interview, you know, the production, the producers would like that. So they would get like the full gear list from the, right, um, gaffer and stuff. And then send that to the new gaffer. And then I would have to go in from behind them and be like, literally do not go buy an aperture 1,200 X, just whatever you've got. It doesn't. Yeah, yeah, sure. All they want is the eight buy. Just trust me. You just use anything else you want. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, the gear obsession is, but it is true. Like the, the, the, thing that is nice, I will say, though, is like everything is coming, just crashing down in price.

Like, you can get an amazing, you know, lighting packages at like an indie filmmaker for nothing now, relatively. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, that's right. And also, environmentally is important, you know, plastic gels, the, you know, just the power consumption, you know, like, we have a responsibility for that, towards that as well, you know. absolutely what i didn't even ask what uh what lenses were you shooting on this i noticed a very fun zoom i was excited that there was a oh uh when he when he walks out of the like he's shaving

and he walks out and you do that whole move i was like yeah fuck yeah it's interesting i was watching the shining on on the plane back from from europe uh yesterday um and i was like these linear moves the kubrick's doing and then these zooms in and i was like oh that's interesting you know, because it is very much this linear, wide angle, linear move. And then we're on, we're on like an optimo 12 to 1, I think. So 24 to 290. I think that was the lens. And yeah, and it's interesting as well because when we really, really, really zoom in on Laslo and Atila at the end of the scene, it kind of struggles.

Yeah, if it starts to fall apart around the edges. Yeah, and you can see that, you know, you can really see that. and then the kind of, yeah, the compromise that the lens is obviously having to make. But, I mean, it's extraordinary how technically precise those lenses are, but you invariably shut down a little bit stopwise, you know, you lose a little bit of light on the long end and things like that, you know. So, but yeah, and then the rest of the time we were shooting on the Lyca R's. Oh.

Yeah, and then Cook S-4s. So, you know, so we always, we've always used the Cook S-4s across all three movies, but yeah, so it's a, you know, combination of lenses. The, the visual character of an S-4 versus a, like, R is interesting. Was there a reason you, like, was there a specific reason you would switch between those? Well, I mean, predominantly we had Vista vision and the Vista vision, the Likaraz on the Vista vision, but then, you know, we had to supplement the Vist. you know, like there were some scenes like on the ship where I had to use a Nari 2, 3, 5, you know,

because I was, I was descending these stairs and literally if I had a Nari cam, it would have sort of tipped off the shoulder. So there were just certain things that we had to use, you know, certain circumstances, we had to employ different devices. But I actually

did, I did want to talk about that because one there's, uh, I guess this isn't, well, if anyone's listening to this, they should have seen the fucking film. At the end, you know, you cut to tape. Yes.

You're shooting tape. And I was just like, this is, I love this. I was so surprised all the time with this film. I just loved it. But, you know, but it just made me think like there's also like a bunch of B roll and stuff. And I was like, who was the B roll person? And did they bring those VistaVision cameras out? Or was that like the 235 or whatever, or even digital?

Like how many other formats were you employing? We had, there was some 16. So basically Adam Phelens was our second unit DP. and then we there was some 16 mill that Brady wanted he wanted this kind of like frederick wiseman quality to some of the designs so a loose a loose documentary feel to to to to when laslo is is designing these pieces of furniture and things like that so minimal minimal amount of that and then um uh aricam two three five this division of course uh and then the beta cam i mean the idea at that

Yeah, so Adam was shooting the beta cam whilst I was shooting the Vista Vision footage at the end of the scene, at the end of the film, the scene at the end of the film at the Venice Biennale and the Israeli Pavilion, you know. And part of that is interesting because a lot of Brady's, the films, the three that I've shot for Brady, have been sort of an examination of modernity versus antiquity and this idea of kind of like, Are we getting better? They're a vintage verse modern on here. That's fantastic. Yeah. And so a lot of the, thematically,

he's examining this idea of like, are we progressing as a, as a species, you know, in terms of like, you know, I mean, case in point,

the Carrera marble quarries, like where, where the marble for the Pieter and statue of David. And now a lot of that marble is being used for like, kitchen countertops or whatever. It's like, In a way, it's like you've seen this whole movie that's on Vista Vision on film,

and then suddenly it's like, now we have 80s technology. And, you know, I find it quite amusing, but it's, you know, I'm not sure everyone's picking up on that. But it's interesting, and it's like it hasn't dated well, this kind of like, it's not digital technology, but it's analog video technology, you know, and it's kind of, it's interesting because it is quite crass when you see it against the kind of like the elegance, let's say, of the other aesthetic, you know. So I think in some ways it's Brady having, and also the music as well.

I was going to say, leaving us with that credit music. Well, yeah, there's that. But then also the, like Vince Clark, I believe it was, who was in Eurasia, the 80s band. Like he's taken the do-do-do-do-do-do this score. And it's like, do-l-l-l-d-l-l-like this 80s electronic kind of like. some of that stuff's amazing but it's like it is interesting because it's like it's it's at odds with this kind of um the journey you've just been on with this kind of and sense of antiquity and uh and and elegance and stuff suddenly it's this whole other era that's represented in this

in this way yeah no it's it's a i love yeah i just love how that that comes together it's so awesome the uh what else did i have here oh i love how you guys handled night. Night is just black. Yes. I need to see it, though, isn't it? The web? But it is. I mean, night. Yeah. You know, I think you have to be careful if you're lighting night that, you know, it doesn't look too much like movie night, you know. And the fact that they're searching for Van Buren at the end in the darkness and stuff, like it's, I mean, we often use

day for night as well. Like, we've done that in the past. know certainly with child of a leader and things like that but it's um yeah also it's i mean we could have got a big crane out there and done a big overhead light source and things like that but i don't know i think in that moment of the film it's kind of interesting just seeing these little dots of light going through landscape and then seeing the silhouette of the building it's kind of it's ominous you know yeah that is something i wanted to know like there's on you know you know budget. Whereas there are a lot of miniature work or were you building these buildings or facades even? Yeah. I mean, so it's a mixture of things. I mean, Judy Beckerard designer and Brady,

and Brady, you know, very early on, they, it was clear that they wouldn't have the budget to construct too much of the institute. So really, it's a mixture of finding locations. So anything that existed in Budapest or Hungary that was made of concrete you know they would sort of re you know

sort of reappropriate and add an ad design work too so that was what Brady what what Judy was doing and then there's VFX work so when you see the time lapse of the Institute being built on the hillside and things that's you know

VFX but you know obviously the VFX is all it's all based on Judy's designs for the Institute and then down below the Institute there's the building site or the construction site I believe it's called so that was essentially a big field where the scaffolding is and there's they dug a deep hole

where the steps down and the steps up entering the sort of subterranean aspects of the like the waterway well that was a whole there the water was another thing so that was basically existed in Budapest and was like a

water holding tank for the city had these beautiful sort of trumpeted fluted kind of pillars you know and they were just amazing and so that was yeah that that was just and then it's interesting because they then find

their way into the design of the building you know when Van Buren is looking through, you know, so these things sort of inform one another. But yeah, that was really how the Institute was, and there was some model work as well. They built various models of, and then we used a probe camera to sort of move through the corridors of these, of the buildings and things like that. You know, I forgot to ask, was there any filtration that you were using? no generally very very little

I tend to just use the usual NDs and polars and no there wasn't I can't remember any point where we were really leaning into heavy diffusion the only time we've ever really done that is in there was a scene in Vox Lux Lux that was supposed to feel like a

I think the photography is Bill Henson I think he's a an Australian photographer called Bill Hanson. And he had this oh there's a thing as a book's called the book is called

Particle Dust or something. Anyway, it's very sort of like diffused, a lot of diffusion. And there was a dance scene in Vox where Celeste is dancing doing a dance rehearsal and we stacked up a lot of diffusion much more than I normally would.

And so sometimes I'll do that But most of the time I, especially on film, I tend to shoot pretty clean. With digital, I'll use like a digital effects filter or something that will help to take the, you know, the sharpness out of the image. Yeah. I find that I was a big, like, you know, black pro mist or like Hollywood black magic guy. And then I was talking to Ellen Curris and she basically slapped that out of me. She was like, there's no sensibility. It's just fuzzy.

And I was like, oh, you're right. Right, right, right. And so now it's like if I do use, now honestly, I just, I pretty much shoot everything. I've become talking about, like, you know, having a signature. I've just shoot everything on my Nikors now. Okay, right. It has just the, you know, it don't need a filter. It's got just enough that it's like, it resolves beautifully, but also has a bit of softness to it on a digital sensor.

And it just looks really nice. Yeah, I started, I shot a film last year and was looking at like super boltars. and cower, sphericals, like, they really get quite funky. I was trying to, like, look at the lenses that Hitchcock would have been using and things like that, you know, but they were kind of really interesting on digital to try and see what that did to an image. Yeah. Well, unfortunately, I have to let you go because the time is up, but I'd love to have you back

on next time you're free to chat about all kinds of stuff. but I did want to, I used to ask this of people, and I forgot, and I just remembered, for as much time as you're willing to give it, talk to me about your, as like a wrap-up, your path to getting into the BSC. Oh, yeah. I think it essentially came after a film High Park on Hudson that I shot, it was shot digitally for Roger Michelle, who was this Bill Murray, Olivia Coleman film. And then after, we went to, it went to Camry Marge and it was in competition at Camry Marge. And then I was invited after that. So I had maybe four, four or five films under my belt by that point. I think three is a minimum entry requirement anyway. So for the BSC.

But yeah, it was really, it was wonderful. I was kind of invitation to join. So that, I mean, that's going back a bit now. That's maybe going back to like 2012. or 13 or something like that. So it's been, it's been a while. But yeah,

and then, you know, I mean, before that, it was really, you know, art, photography,

photography to moving image, moving image at university, and then short films whilst being an AC, and that was about nine years between graduating and, and shooting my first feature, which was a film called Ballast in,

in Mississippi in 2006, I think, early 2006. Yeah, and then after that I was a DP and could call myself a DP and then off I went, you know, just movie after movie. Yeah. Well, that gives me a little bit of hope because it's been about nine years since I, before I started getting featured docs. So we're on the path. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, it's, yeah, it's just. Slow and steady, you know?

Slow and steady, exactly. Well, like I said, man, the film is absolutely phenomenal. I've been just telling everyone who will listen that they need to block off a day to go see it. Actually, how many times have you watched it? Because that's got, that's a commitment. Yeah, I've probably watched it. I don't know, six or seven. Okay.

So you weren't like sitting in the color grade like, all right, do it again. Yeah, yeah. No, and then as an actual movie, I've seen it about six or seven times, you know, know, just with audiences, which is good, like at Camrymage and, um, and, uh, I saw at the vista on 70 mil with my parents and, oh, cool. So, you know, just, um, yeah, it's nice. It's really nice to see it with an audience. And at the BSC, I saw it, um, you know, so it's nice to see it with cinematographers and,

and a different, a different, so, yeah, it's always a pleasure to see it. I'm so proud of the film. You should be, man. it's truly like and it's I'm positive it's going to go down as like one of those ones that everyone goes hey have you seen that yet because that's

you know it's the godfather it's Star Wars you gotta watch Bruteless next amazing thank you's a good one and please release it on 4K Blu-ray yeah yeah okay right on well yeah next time you're able man I love to have you back on his great chat

thanks Kenny I appreciate it awesome take care all right you too bye bye frame and reference is an Albot production produced and edited me, Kenny McMillan. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so by going to frame and refpod.com and clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated, and as always, thanks for listening.