Frame & Reference Podcast - 180: "Remember Me" Cinematographer Steve Collins

Episode Date: March 13, 2025

This week on F&R I've got a really fun conversation with Sundance 2025 short "Remember Me" Cinematographer/Producer (and film professor!) Steve Collins. Enjoy!F&R Online ► https://www.frameandrefpod.comSupport F&R ► https://www.patreon.com/FrameAndRefPodWatch this Podcast ► https://www.YouTube.com/@FrameAndReferenceProduced by Kenny McMillanWebsite ► https://www.kennymcmillan.comInstagram ► https://www.instagram.com/kwmcmillan

Hello and welcome to this episode 180 of Frame and Reference. You're about to drop into a conversation between me, Kenny McMillan, and my guest, Steve Collins, DP of Remember Me, which just played at Sundance. Enjoy. Well, I'm happy to have a conversation. I always like talking to people. I'm a teacher. I teach at Westland. Oh, really? Yeah, in Connecticut. And so, yeah, I talk about... Production? I teach production, yeah. And screenwriting, too. And some movie watching, too. Wait, you teach movie watching. how to watch a movie

I keep some courses that are kind of hybrid film studies film production courses where we watch we have a kind of topic that we watch movies on and we do creative projects so I do one I'm doing one right now called the artist on film where we look at

we do a study of films that are about artists you know ranging documentaries to horror films to all the way to experimental films, musicals, like, you know, all sorts, trying to kind of get at, you know, how do you take the drama of being an artist and make it feel real and not silly to an audience, like, because people will really, you know, people die for art, they cut off their ear, but like for the reggae, you have to make that real and feel something

that the audience can participate and just putting a painting up on the screening or a symphony will not produce that understanding of what art means to people. And so we kind of look at the different art forms and the challenges of translating different art forms to the screen

and eventually get to writing, which is really the hardest thing to translate to a screen because there's very little physically there to work with paper a lot of a lot of quill shots yeah long lens quill shots uh contemplation yeah voice over a lot of contemplation a lot of ripping up pages yeah uh and so we kind of look at creative solutions to kind of make the process of that our chairman you know come alive so that's actually I'm so happy your teacher that I tend to push back on the idea that people are saying like, oh, attention spans are too short.

Oh, TikTok, whatever. And it's like, I've watched people's TikToks. They're incredibly creative a lot of times, not all the time, obviously. But do you find that the students are suffering from whatever ailment that is? Or do you find that maybe whenever you were in film school, or whatever, you know, the kids are all right artistically. I mean, I don't know. I find my students, you know, yes, I mean, we,

I think levels of kind of ADHD and that kind of thing are probably on the rise, but I find in general my students seem to enjoy sitting and watching a movie in a theater, you know, to study it. And I don't, you know, I don't have. people falling asleep or being restless or like unable to not touch their phone or I don't have those kind of problems you know I think that I don't think they're really you know I mean I guess they're different than us and that you know we were not you know our formative years when

our brain was forming we weren't kind of like mainlining you know TikTok or whatever it is but But now I am. Right, yeah, yeah. So I, they're not really any, I don't feel separated from them. And, you know, and I, I think they probably feel the way I do that, you know, watching a film to me is like a meditation in, you know, really getting out of my own head and trying to get into someone else's experience. And if it's being made properly, you know, you really get to see the world through

someone else's eyes and uh and and get out of your own neuroses and you know the thoughts spinning around in your head doubting everything you're doing and you know all the things we do as sort of sensitive smart people yeah um and i think too like i think colleges should start a i hate to call it a youtube course but like a videography court you know because i think that sort of aforementioned like oh, kids don't want to make films, you know, they just, it's like, yeah, I think some kids just do want to take the video aspect. Like, let's teach kids good video. Like, I think that, you know, Lord knows you can make a lot more money being a streamer than a DP. And if that's what you want to, you know, fuck it. Give them, give them a class on that. Like, I don't see anything wrong with

that, you know, and it would save them money not buying a red to stream with, you know. Yeah. I mean, I think it's important, especially as we get older, to, like, not be rigid. Like, art is not, you can't be rigid as an artist, and you shouldn't be rigid in your thinking about what could be art, you know. Sure. And just because it's in a different form doesn't mean you couldn't do something creative with it or interesting with it. And, you know, yeah, I mean, I agree.

I mean, I think you can't get rigid and stuck in, you know, the past. You have to be open to kind of new ideas and new technologies and all, you know, all those things. And then hopefully still, you know, I think the job of the older people is to kind of hold on to the things from the older methods and the older technologies that are worth saving, you know. that, you know, that the film image might be of value, you know, you said you were going to be interviewing the brutalist, you know, shot in Vista vision, you know, which I was thrilled to hear that they were busting out Vista vision cameras, that there may be something of value in some of these older outdated technologies. And that's kind of the job of the older teachers to kind of suggest that, but we can't close

ourselves out off to change. It kills you as an artist and it kills you as a human being. Well, and also, I feel like now that we can do anything, everything is a choice, right? So, like, they're choosing to shoot Bistavision because that says something

about the art. I think that element of certainly cinematography, but just filmmaking in general, there was some things that were not a choice. You know, like 28 days later, shooting on the X-L-1 was a choice, but if someone else did it, it would probably

just be seen as an indie film. Yeah, yeah. Like, it's now, it's anything, any move you make is a choice, which I think also is potentially dangerous because anything you do happenstantially will be seen as a choice. Yes. If you're, yeah, yeah, if you're

doing things randomly. Yeah, if your audio is bad, they're like, oh, I'm an interesting choice. You're like, no, I just had bad audio. Yeah, yeah. have there been any films that you know like I recently met a guy he was like 22

hadn't seen the Matrix like barely had heard of it and I was like what you know and now I'm finally the old guy who's like how have you not what are you talking about are there is there anything like that that you're finding with the students?

Oh certainly with students yeah yeah I mean there are lots of I don't like Citizen Kane I don't think you're going to have seen but like the Matrix I think a younger version of me would have been appalled that a lack of cinema literacy, but, you know, I try to just meet people where they are and recognize that it isn't the dominant, you know, art form right now. And so, you know,

why should they have seen Touch of Evil? Like, you know, and also I think growing up, now I have two kids who are, one's in college, one's almost in college, you sort of get the deal. they're competing with a lot of other uh you know activities uh and as you know what was what worked for me which was you know falling in love when i was like five years old with the movies and uh and rabidly watching everything i could is just the not for everybody and it's also um because you can watch everything it ironically sort of makes you watch nothing thing you know it's sort of like overwhelms you with choice and uh um you end up kind of scrolling sort of mindlessly on things instead of like making a choice and i understand that

that's part of i've seen myself do that you know sometimes i don't feel like i'm immune to these modern things like i see myself do that like you know i have a night um by myself i you know queue up the criterion channel you know try to figure out streamer Everyone needs to get the criteria. Great. Great. I love the service. But, you know, there are nights that I'm like fried from too much stimulus or something or what the same thing we're all fried by.

And I, I don't, you know, pick out a great classic. I instead spend my night kind of, you know, scrolling, you know. And so, yeah, I mean, it happens to us too. well that's one of the reasons why I like that streamers because they curate you know like every month they're like oh it's you know whatever Kevin Smith month or we know it's horrible I think they do a great job they do a great job they because they do a real variety they do old Hollywood they do foreign they do a lot of genre they do you know stuff that's more auteur focused and you know the they do a lot and like classics world cinema you know esoteric you know new art house releases they've got a good variety and as you said they mix it up so you do feel some urge of well this isn't going to be on forever i better watch it well and and you know i've said before on this podcast about like oh we all had the same upbringing so this is going to kind of be stupid but uh did you

grow up in a small town where like the only escape was the theater yeah exactly yeah we all I think that's I think that's like a seminal thing for for people who got in the film but yeah I grew up in Schenectady New York

which wasn't a big cultural center or anything and you know I mean even if you were in a large or town I mean you know we had limited access to the world like something like Saturn at Live or Monty Python,

these were like little portals into a sort of alternative non-mainstream kind of way of seeing things. And you didn't get a lot of these little opportunities to see things, see the world a different way, maybe. And so I was very attracted to those things. And, you know, movies, my taste really was. very varied you know I I I wanted to watch everything and and it was for me a portal into like what the world was like and you know and it's not like I mean I could have gone into the city I guess but you know it it you know when you're young it's you don't it's not you don't you don't even drive like I mean this is what you got you're sort of in your town. So I don't think the town has to be like Maybury or some like really like

remote place. It's like a lot of people grow up in a place that isn't the hub of culture. Right. You know, um, and so movies are a kind of way into that. And, and yeah, and I think today you have a lot of other things that are also a way into that. Well, and you're like, you're so right because like When I think of things that when I was younger that I used to watch that were those cultural touch. They weren't even films every time. It would be like Top Gear, you know, like you'd find episodes of Top Gear because we didn't have BBC, obviously. So you'd just find them online or whatever. And it felt like a little, or like I know anime is super popular right now, but back in their early 2000s.

Yeah, it was incredibly difficult to find. And you'd download it and it felt like a little secret. You're like, oh, I've got a window in it. And now it's like you can just bring up. TikTok or Blue Sky or whatever and talk to someone from across the pond, no problem. And I do wonder

if that's like kind of hindering our curiosity because everything is so available, you know? And I don't mean everything. I mean, people. Yeah. Cultures, you know, not everything. Well, yeah. I mean, I think what happens is that, you know, speed is not the best always.

Speed and instant accessibility doesn't always encourage deliberation and um kind of soaking into something you know the way like you know you know I think a lot

of music I mean record stores are kind of coming back but like a whole you know I was a big music fan and you know really soaking into an environment that is built around I mean like video stores which you know we all grew up with them really loved like an environment that's

really about movie love or music love or something if there is no environment, you know, if the environment is just your phone or the computer, it is a different kind of experience. But I do, I'm always heartened when I talk to my students or my own kids about what they're excited about going to see at the movies, what, you know, what bands they want to see live, what, you know, people want live experience and theatrical experience or that they're going to the city to see a Broadway show.

It's like these things aren't going to go away, but they obviously, as everyone says, the business model for how to make them profitably has gotten messed up and people are frightened about it. We're cautious about it. Well, and it's something that I've read a lot of kind of articles about, I suppose, being the death of the scene, right? Like, because just as you said,

it reminds me of like sleep hygiene. you know how they say when you go to bed you shouldn't bring your phone you shouldn't do anything in your bed besides sleep because that you need to train your brain that sleep is what happens when you go to bed yeah uh i kind of feel like the same is true with as you're saying like if if the phone is the portal to everything yeah how do you train your brain to get excited about a film or uh you know reading or whatever if it's all here you know contacting your loved ones if it's all in the same thing yeah You know, we don't go to malls. You don't go to the video store. Your brain doesn't silo out these experiences. They're all coming into one place. And that's, that's an interesting thought. Yeah, I mean, I think that you'll, I hope that, you know, the one good thing about the current generation, not the one good thing, you know.

It's only one. My own children. But, like, one of the good things about the new generation is that they're much more. they're much more comfortable talking about mental health. Yeah. It isn't something that I ever considered. I wasn't having as a teenager. Well,

not serious problems. But, you know, I certainly was experiencing the sort of the sort of ups and downs of hormonal, you know, teenagehood. The worst thing was hearing like someone would be going through something in my high school. I went to a very small high school.

There was only 80 people in the whole school. and someone would be crashing out and you'd just look at your friend and they'd go well I'm not his mom you know there was no support group yeah yeah it was it was not great yeah and I do think that that is different at least I've seen amongst my students

but also my kids and and I think that because of that I guess I'm hopeful that that they're that you know because they really understand that and have been told by their teachers and by their you know by you know all the articles that this way of communicating the world is increasing their anxiety essentially all this dopamine that you're getting from scrolling and all that

that that they will figure out how to self-correct you know and that includes us because we are being affected by it too, that we will understand, like, I want to go out and put my phone away. You know, I want to, you know, go be with people and be IRL, you know, and, you know, I got to think that I got to be optimistic and that, you know, I wouldn't be surprised if you see, you know, more sort of teetotelers, you know, in regards to social media in the next, you know, 10 years or so. Dude, I think in the next five, I mean, like, even in the filmmaking space, I'm saying a weird push towards, like, mini-dv and VHS, like, kids are snatching.

If you go on eBay and try to look for just, like, handy cams, they're, like, hundreds of dollars now. It's, like, just ask someone older than 30. I guarantee you they've got five in the glass. you can have it you know same thing with like um they're bringing at bars i see people with um uh just like pocket cameras you know uh yeah they call them digicams but you know separate from the phone they want to take photos separate from the phone now and it's outside of film pop you know how like film got really popular over the past like 20 years like film photography but i think

that was more like artsy like people wanted to yeah turn that into a niche hobby which i think is fantastic but now it's like you're seeing people just with point and shoot yeah yeah just just out in the moment doing that not there is a weird tell me if you see this with the students have you seen them use the word aesthetic as an adjective oh that is so aesthetic and i'm yeah a couple years ago yeah yeah but it's like they do speaking of the death of the scene uh it's now because there is no scene you choose an aesthetic that you would like to inhabit for the day. So you'll see people like, oh, today I'm dressing goth.

They're not goth kids. You know, they just today, that's kind of how they're feeling. Fashion-wise, like everything is a fashion. And I find that fascinating because I imagine, well, you should tell me, do you see that in the film production of these kids, that they're not telling, you know, the directing teachers would always be like, oh, make what you know. what do they know are they are they just picking aesthetics certainly i would make you know oh i know action films it's like that's not what we met yeah well i mean yeah i it's hard i don't know

how much it's changed i think when you're you know i teach 19 to uh uh like you know 20 or i guess 18 to 21 and uh um you know i think that's a period of uh one's life the human development where you don't know a lot you know and you don't have much experience and it's nor did i or nor did you and it's it's just you know so you're often writing kind of coming of age material working on a lot of stuff about youth you know childhood and things like that because that's the time period that you have the most sort of perspective on the i do think what we all kind of, I think, worry about as, you know, parents but also teachers is, you know, is there a way in which, uh, that life right now is set up so that people are interacting less with each other

in real life? And therefore, they're not really developing the kind of skills they need to do, you know, group work in real life, which is pretty much everything. Unless you're a hermit or a, you know, I mean, even a painter has to, like, work to get it sold and, like, work out some... Talk to the framer, at least. Yeah, talk to the framer, yeah. And so, you know, those are the kind of things that, you know, I guess over the... Maybe I've been teaching, like, 20 years, like, those are the things that I've seen maybe shift a little, like a little more, like, where you get the impression. And there's been a lot of inside time.

And, of course, that's been compounded by the pandemic where, you know, or... kids were, my kids were inside for two years or a year at least. See, my brain turned it into four years for some reason. Yeah, it was four years. Four years we didn't go outside. You know, but I don't know, you know, humans are a resilient bunch and, you know, we adapt. And I think the, you know, the fundamentals of like the stories that they want to tell and stuff, that that never changes. to be, you know, what they are, they're about there, the things that hurt and bother them and how to process them, you know, and how to...

That's great storytelling. We didn't do that. We would grab paintball guns and do jackass stunts. Like, you know, I was not a, uh, uh, uh, in touch with myself, uh, well, yeah, I'll get that too. And there's, there's a place for that. And that, you know, as I try to teach like, you know, movie experience, see, I, I love movies. so much, you know, they're my, I mean, half of my life, you know, I mean, just is like in the

movie theater. And like, I do preach that movie experience counts. So your experience watching diehard or Armageddon or those, that counts. And I, I think real movie lovers understand that. I'm not saying, you know, you're delusional and you don't know that it's real or that it's pretend. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that it counts, you know, that the kind of experience that you have watching 500 horror films does count as experience. And you can write about that too. That's allowed. You know, and it's not, you know, what's nice about it is it's not, it is emotional experience. It is not just intellectual experience. So you're a love with, uh, uh, you know, making paintball movies, which may have come from, I don't know,

watching, you know, Commando or what, I mean, I'm a little than you, but, whatever it was like you're pretty spot on yeah like you know that's real and in it you're expressing a kind of joy that you had as a the kind of 12 year old boy and you you know that you still feel and you're making it in paintball and I think that's great and I think it's genuine it would be much worse for you to at that age I would never encourage somebody to like no I want you to talk about your depression you know like but i'm not depressed you know yes you are yeah you write from the experience and the things that you're drawn to and if that's doing a genre piece um because that's something you're in love with that means that can mean as much to an audience that has to watch it

if it's genuine than a movie about a breakup or something very personal or you know your you're you know, tormented a relationship with your father or something that's sort of more kind of typically personal. Yeah. I, after, when I was in college, I went back to New York Film Academy here in L.A. to a TA, which ostensibly just means I was on the back lot. And the students had like classroom time and then they'd come on the back lot and film. And so I was there to kind of wrangle them and, like, help them, you know, make the thing. And it was really interesting to see the number of times a red rose, a briefcase full of cocaine, and a hobo getting kicked, popped up.

That's like the quick write something. That's what happens. Yeah, I mean, all people who teach film have their list of things that, you know. Oh, what's yours? Well, you know, the alarm clocks, the graveyards. the train tracks, you know, that are kind of the bottle of Jack Daniels. The things that, you know, all of those things are a kind of sign that there's a little bit of a block they need to push through to find something that is maybe a little more effective or original or, you know, the graveyard is going to give you instant fear because you're in a graveyard. and then you don't have to create it through cinema.

You shot in a graveyard. You got atmosphere, you know, but it's not really true. You still have to, it's not that you can't make a good project in a graveyard, but you got to watch out that you're not using it as a shortcut. You know, the Jack Daniels is an instant sort of shortcut towards an internal drama. You know, oh, he's an alcoholic. He must be profoundly, you know, distraught and troubled

rather than figuring out how to draw an audience into that kind of drama. So they're all kind of shortcuts that you just kind of watch out for. But yeah, yeah, we've definitely seen all those. I did visit your website

and you have a lot of projects under your belt. How do you find the time to be a teacher full time and, you know, actually I mean, it is a balance. I mean, I think it wouldn't work if the filmmaking part was like, felt like a job, you know, because you wouldn't want to do two jobs. Right.

You know, so the filmmaking part is like me on vacation. And when you really love it, it's, it kind of feeds you and it, it's like, so like if you saw on my website that's that I had been to like, you know, Cancun and I had been to like, you know, you know, Paris and I'd been to thing, you know, you'd be like, oh, yeah, I guess he just travels a lot, you know, but it's really just that I like, that's what I like doing for my on vacation. And so, but yeah, it's, it's always a balance and I would never, you know, I think most teachers I know are always conflicted about how much they're investing in their own work versus their teaching. And I don't know, it's like a lot of things. It's a balance. You know, some days you feel the balance is right. Some days you feel it's off. And I've just tried not

to ever let go of either. You don't want to, you have an obligation. I just feel an obligation to the students. You don't want to let them down. I don't want to be a figure in their life that phoned it in because most of us have had a teacher that phoned it in. And, you know, it's very disrespectful to them as humans. Not even talking about, like, commerce, like that they're paying to be there. Like, it's just disrespectful as another human being to say, you're not worth my time. Right. And so I try not to let them down. And I, but I do try to, you know, you have to have boundaries about how much you're able to give to be able to still focus on your own stuff. And make sure. And, you know, the nice thing about teaching for anybody who's like a creator

who's considering it is that, you know, if you're teaching at the university level, there is a ton of vacation time. A lot of those projects you see were done on spring break, which is two weeks for us. And I've done features where I've done a ton of shorts, but I've done four features, and only two of them were shot during the regular school year. So not even taking a sabbatical. The other two, or sorry, one of them was actually taking a sabbatical and leaving school and doing it and then coming back. But the other two were done by just planning it out so that you shoot a week on this break, you shoot two weeks on this break, you shoot a week there, then shoot two weeks over the summer or whatever, which is not always a practical way to make a

movie, but if you, if that, you know, you can schedule something, you know, it's if you decide that's your limitation, then you just make it work. Well, and I imagine the students would rather take a class from someone who's actively making films versus, you know, someone who says they do. Yeah, I think so. And if you went through film school, there's probably one teacher that everyone was sort of like that guy's, you know, talking about, you know, or washed up like a 40-year-old information or whatever. Yeah, I don't. This is the DVX 100. Yes, yes. Or older. Yeah, and the, yeah, I do, you know, I do, I feel that when I make work, I feel it energizes me and I feel not just, I mean, obviously things like new technology and all that.

But just, I think more, just like, the more you do it, the fresher, I don't know, you can just talk about it more freshly with recent examples and, you know, and every film that you have all these different problems, you know. There's never really been a film that didn't have a problem, like when you're making it. And so you, you know, you have all these new problem sets that you've hopefully solved. And also what I find is, I mean, in my case, because so much my work has been like low budget or I think the biggest movie I've done was, my biggest budget was like $325,000, I think. And, you know, when you're working at that level, you're kind of at the student level. You're a little above the student level, but it always helps me kind of keep my compassion for what this. they're going through because a lot of my, especially my shorts and stuff, I'm working with a much smaller crew and less resources than they do. And I feel like it kind of keeps me honest and

it keeps me off my high horse. Sure. You know, because like, you know, I've had experiences as a middle-aged person that I that I kind of feel like I should be not having this experience I have too much experience to be like say having the sunset on me without getting a shot

right off you know like because we don't have enough crew and because everything's going wrong like you know those kind of things that happen when you make your first couple films you know you sort of learn how to calibrate how much how many

resources you need, how much resources you need for a certain idea. But when you're working on a budget, you're always pushing that, trying to work with smaller crews, get more for less. And you make the kind of same mistakes that you do when you start out. Well, and it doesn't change, like every deep, you know, I was just talking to Faden Papa Michael shot a complete unknown, the Bob Dylan film. I liked that. I thought that film looked great. Oh, yeah, it's fantastic. That is actually the best film look shot digitally that I've ever seen. Did you see, I'm only saying this because my now friend shot it, did you see the holdovers? Yes, I thought it looked.

I just as, I just, they're both, I thought they both look great. I just, when I saw that was shot digitally, I was like, wow, they really did good work on that. I will say. And I know they passed it through. Yeah, they did the film. And every, you know, and I was like, that had great texture to it. And it didn't feel a lot of the kind of sort of like grades they put on with grain. I don't know, they, they look faky to me.

It's just an overlay. Yeah, it's like an overlay. And I thought that film looked great. And I really thought that I really felt, you know, I've seen other films in that period. Inside Lewin Davis is one of my. favorite films that covers that same era now they're working in a totally different style that this is in a much more realistic style um but i just felt so inside that environment like i i loved how worn everything was uh oh i get so tired of like really crisp period looks you know

where everyone's hair is perfect and all the cars are brand new i mean when do you ever walk around and see brand new cars everywhere like do you think that was the way it was in like the 60s like everyone had a new car have you been to LA no one washes their car yeah exactly no one's got salt on their car like what what oh yeah in the Midwest and shit in the east this I just thought was so worn and kind of scuzzy you know I mean Bob looked dirty which I'm sure he was um he was sort of legendarily sort of bad hygiene in those days at least

and anyway I thought that movie looked great. Yeah well and them it was the first time that I've seen someone shoot crazy high ISOs and not have it look flat you know because at a certain point like I would

be shooting really high 12,800 yeah that's high yeah well and he's he's saying that it's just stopped down like He was showing you on the Venice. Yeah. Yeah. I've never used that camera.

But I was. It's nice. It's a nice camera. I mean, yeah, I know. It's not in my ranges. You know.

But I don't think like, yeah, it's a great camera. But I, I've, I'm certainly of the mind that any camera you pick made after 2015. They're impressive.

It's going to work. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I was, I mean, I I this movie we shot that went to Sundance was shot on the C200 which is not the you know top of the line did you shoot raw what you shoot raw no we didn't you shot the 8 bit we yes we did we shop UHD and the the reason was because the director was going to be doing these long she's an actress and it was her first time directing and she's also a stand-up comic and she knew she wanted to

do these long improvisations. And I just, you know, we didn't really know what was going to come of the project. You know, it's possible I would have done it differently if we knew it was going Sundance. But I advised her like, look, you know, if you're really going to be doing like 30 minute takes, we maybe should shoot U.HD. And because it was really a kind of performance-based piece, you know, I've done projects in U.H.D. They look fine. And, you know, I wasn't expecting that we would be at Sundance. But once we started, I saw how good the material was. And we were, yeah, we started getting very excited because it was just coming out very well. But, you know, it did. I think for, you know, you just have to kind of tailor the camera and the, uh, you just don't want the camera to drive the project. You want, you want the camera to follow, follow the project. You know,

the project drives things. And that project was shot with me and her. And right. And so the C200 is a great camera for like a one man band like that. And it's the same reason I use it to teach the students. It's like a very like and also I'm not a like I'm not a DP by profession so like I'm I'm like a student like it's great for me and I always tell people like they're because you can I'm sure you I mean you do a podcast on this you can go down a real rabbit hole of trying to find out what the right camera is it's so like YouTube is is insufferable sometimes of this changes the game like it doesn't no it's 6K good for you yeah and the the you know the I'll answer is like, as you can see, is, well, first of all, just remember that, like, the story you're telling is what's going to grab them. And so, you know, that's the most important thing. And then, you know, your comfort with the camera is probably the most, the second most important. You know, your personal comfort, how much you've used it and how sort of, you know, how easy you find it to, you know, get all through all

the menus and like how you know how comfortable you are with it and that's you know for the c200 i had shot a documentary feature where i was a one-man band on that i was just very comfortable with that camera and because um and i like what it does without a lot of color correction and i didn't at that point i didn't know if we were if we were going to be doing a color session or not it we didn't really know. We ended up doing it, but I didn't know. And I think I really like, I mean, this is just for teaching, but like having the option of doing raw or, you know, with the CFS cards or UHD is, that is a great feature, you know, because it gives your cameras some, like, versatility. Like, you have a bigger project, you can do this and, you know, and you can go up.

I love that about that. camera. But I shot something recently with the C-70, which I just thought was an adorable camera. Like, adorable. I loved it. And we shot that one raw, and I, with some good lenses. And I, I was just like, for, again, for a, that was a two-man band, uh, set up. And I thought, I just thought we got a lot for a very affordable camera. yeah and that's what you're talking about is like if you if you shoot with a if you shoot with like a new camera like in raw and stuff you are you really do have a very very good image uh you know with any of the brands yeah but yeah i've gotten used to canon so i i do that but like you know

whether it's sony or uh you know panasonic or like you know these these these cameras have gotten very good. As you know, you talk about it every week, I'm sure. Well, I've started, so I actually shoot Canada. This is a C100 mark two. And then I've, because that was like one of the first ones I got back in 2015. And then I have a C70 and a C500 mark two. So that's like my, if you hire me package. These days, there's a little bit more like renting external cameras for whatever gig. But if it's something where the client doesn't know, they never, they can never know. You could tell them it's a lexia. You can tell them it's Venice.

No one knows. And it's, it comes down to lensing. A lot of like, I think, you know, you see, oh, the reason I brought up Faden was just like, even on that, you know, it's always budget. I think that was the earlier thing, which is like, no matter what film you're on, it's always the budget is going to hit you. But in terms of cameras. selection, I think, like, that should be the first thing that you're willing to

downgrade as long as the hardware fits your needs, meaning, you know, like, does it have SDI? Does it have time code, you know, if you need those things? Yeah. More times than not the important stuff or the, the interesting topics hardware-wise are lensing and lighting, certainly, like, especially with all these crazy new, tiny, powerful, LED is coming out. But lenses, I think, is how you could trick people. Because everyone has, like, and by everyone, I mean, like camera nerds,

have a idea of what each camera looks like. So if people go, oh, Sony is sharp. It's like, just put one of those really nice Sigma lenses on a cannon and then tint it green and go, it's Sony and they'll go, oh, okay. You know, no one knows. Yeah.

But that's C-7. I would agree with that. I think putting the money into renting lenses as you know to control look is a good idea yeah

you have the budget for that what was for people who haven't seen it I of course have seen it what the sundance film what it's a short yeah it's a short

it's called remember me it's it's written and directed by this woman this actress Claire title And it's the first, her first directing gig. And it came about from a kind of just like,

I like the story of her movie because it was just came out of like a very raw, urgent need to do something creative because she was in a strange bubble, a kind of grief, slow grief bubble dealing with her. father's Alzheimer's and get the transition, get him into memory care and, uh, and like, there's a what she calls, uh, uh, I think a lot of people who deal this call all the, the long goodbye of Alzheimer's. It's so tough. Yeah. Yeah. And that you're losing them like slowly. It's like a, like Benjamin Buttons like, you know, like you're losing them. And that you're sort of suspended in this grief process and uh claire is a stand-up comedian and uh she's on

probably most well-known she was on chelsea lately she's one of the panelists for a while and um but she's in lots of tv and other things uh and um yeah she's a stand-up comic and so you know the combination of her sensibility and the the really dark material. I don't even want to say dark, just like real. Or, you know, because it's like, it's just, it's mortality. It's, it exists. It happens to all of us.

You know, the, and the way she's processing it through comedy is there. I just found like, it was like nothing I'd seen before. And very, very fresh and very, very authentic. And she's also, she's essentially. writing about making this film about trying to go on a date but being kind of locked in this sort of overshare like when you can't talk about anything else but this thing you're in and and sort of just like monologuing like you know all across the date through this and I just found the the authenticity of it because it's not something I can I can I can

can relate to it. I've been in grief and things, but I couldn't, it was not actually an experience I had had. And particularly, it was from a woman's perspective. And it was really a lot about her trying to kind of escape through promiscuity and sort of sexual activity. And that was something I certainly had not experienced. And as a woman. You too? Yeah. And, and, you know, It was just one of those things, you know, that was like it was happening in front of me as we were making it. And yet it was like one of those great experiences you have at the movies where you're able to give, you get another experience of another human being that is not yours, but you can relate to, but it's not your experience, you know? Yes. You know, it's not unrelatable.

That's the director's job to make it relatable to you so that you can understand it and feel. feel it and experience it, but makes the world feel a little less lonely, you know, and done in a way that I've, I had never seen before. It's the very unique her voice, the combination of humor and sort of dark topics of mortality, spirituality, and, I guess, promiscuity. Sure. I don't know if that's a dark topic. No, I mean, it's certainly.

Not your perspective. It could be a very light and fun topic. Depending on how the date goes. Yeah. And yeah, so it's a very unusual project. And, you know, I don't know, you know, your show you. I'm sure you interview a lot of people with, you know, very large projects. And this is, I guess, a counter example of something that is really, really bare bones.

And I think it's a nice success story, certainly one that I'll tell my students, of a very bare bones effect, you know, or sorry, bare bones crew and process and production that was the right size for a story that was so urgent that it just like boiled off the, it just like floated, you know, on the screen. And, you know, when people ask, you know, yeah, how do I get my film noticed? I mean, the biggest thing I would say is, like, do you have something that you have to get out of you? Yep. You know, because you have to be honest. If you don't, then that's the problem. And it's okay to not have something that you have to get out of you because she was in pain. You know, that's why it had to get out of her.

And that's not fun, you know. But it does make for, like great music, it can make for something that you feel, my God, this is human experience I'm watching. And I relate to this because I've been in pain and I've wanted to escape and, you know, that kind of thing. And so, you know, that to me is the story beyond the gear. You know, that's the important part. The gear part of it is, you know, the Canon C200 is a good one-man band camera where, you know, If it's just me, I can plug in my mic, I can put it on a C-stand, I can plug in a lov, I can mount the lov without extra sort of caging or anything to the camera. All the controls are very accessible.

It's a lightweight camera, you know? And it shoots at a high enough. It's not one of these super ISO cameras like the FX3 or... You only need about 16, maybe 3,200. Well, that's, that's, I agree with that. And, um, and I am not, uh, I'm not, I think there was one shot that I went up to 1600 and I think, uh, shooting 400 usually. Yeah.

But I, the, um, I'm not, it's not a purist in the sense that I'll, I will go over 8.50 if, it's, you know, if that's the, if it's needed. Because I've seen the product in the end is it's fine. It's like, you know, like people pay to put a little noise and things. You know, it's okay, you know. And if that's what's required, then we'll do that. I mean, it just obviously depends on what the project is. But this is a very lo-fi project.

And you see, you know, the more you do this, you sort of, you just realize what, for each project where you have to put the priority. You know, because you're always making little compromises. And, you know, if I had my druthers, I would resurrect technicolor and, you know, have them reprint the film stock. I want to shoot three cameras. Yeah. Yeah. And give me a three strip technicolor and like give me a color consultant. I mean, that's if that I would probably shoot everything like that because that's what I had my eyeballs like, you know.

But, you know, you have financial constraints and you have to prioritize. what is the best tool to get across the bulk of the meaning of the film. In this case, I was serving a director whose gift was really performance. It's not that we didn't pay attention to composition. She was very rigorous, especially for a first time director in choosing her frames. But the primary effect of the movie is coming through her improvisation.

and she's extremely gifted and compelling on screen. Like you don't want to look away. And so, you know, the tool I was using, I thought was perfect for the job. You know, that and I own, well, I don't own it, but I teach so I have one. Yeah, yeah. Well, and to your point about, you know, you need to get it out. I don't teach anymore necessarily, but I write for this website called Pro Video Coalition and on like Reddit, YouTube.

I try to still take an education or be an educator to a degree. And that's the main thing, especially on Reddit, that I keep like DPs who want to start shooting. They're like, they know they like cameras, they know they like video. They know they like movies. So they don't realize that cinematographer is more of a servant job than a, you know, they don't realize that they're in a tour position. Yeah, or they want to be a director or whatever, but

that's always my main thing is like, what story do you have to tell right now? Because it doesn't matter what camera you pick if that's, that'll make you good. And I did, I did want to ask, what was the road to Sundance like? Because I think it's so, I hesitate

to put inspirational on your shoulders, but, you know, it's, you shot 8 bit on a prosumer camera. normally you and one other person right um anyone can do that well and the other person was the actress right really just me and a one by one uh light panel and that's it one light uh i had two light panels okay fair were they like uh nice ones or like the amazon you know i mean they were uh they were those one by one uh like kit lights they have a little crappy stands yep

i know exactly what you they have the barn doors on it for no reason. Yeah. Yep. But it, it, they were, they're fine for, you know, what we needed, you know. And, you know, and I do, I like using them because I'm not, you know, I'm not a cinematographer in that way. The stuff that I've shot, I've really used very simple lighting. If I want to really use light as a storytelling tool, I would be working with a different cinematographer. than me, you know, but, you know, the kind of DP that I am when I'm working on my own stuff or working with really close friends like Claire, that is a way of making films, you know, and there's a kind of intimacy to that and where you're like, we're going to focus on these things, not these things. And so if camera like the C200 is good, I mean, you wouldn't be able to make that kind of film with a technicaler camera from 1950. Right.

Like, you can't just, like, do that with that kind of film. Like, just take it out. Um, yeah, by yourself, you know, or you couldn't really, I mean, I guess you could maybe do that with an R.A. Alexa or something, but I wouldn't, like, just operate that on my own. Um, it's not built to be operated on your own. Yeah. And so, uh, you know, so this is like, this is helpful. And I always, like, you want to make sure that whatever kind of sacrifices you're making in terms of, um,

or let's just say choices you're making in terms of camera or, you know, any kind of the gear, that you just want to make sure that the project you've chosen isn't going to be hurt by those, but that, like, it's appropriate for the project you've chosen. And I think the kind of intimacy and the performance-based quality of it, that it's not creating most of its meaning through, you know, a very delicate, sort of balance of light and shadow or the use of color, you know, that it's really creating meaning through composition and performance and then any kind of blocking we're doing and cutting. And for those things, you know, then you realize, no, this camera is perfect for this.

Yeah. So did you guys, like, obviously she just wanted to make the thing, but did you go into it, um, knowing you wanted to submit to festivals and stuff like that. And how did you? Yeah, she was always very, she was very ambitious with it, you know, uh, and she, from early on, she was, she originally wanted to just start making a feature and, you know, uh, uh, but, you know, knew that that's a long process and probably not something she's going to do just with me, although you can do it. Um, and, uh, uh, so we decided to, you know, work out this short and she had a script and then uh but from that script did a lot of improvisation more than i've ever done with anyone well as the writer and director i guess you know she's writing on

the spot really you know she's directing so like i'm not really doing anything in terms of directing or you know even though she's acting and writing uh i'm just sort of clapping if it's good and the um and i guess being a sounding board about things but she she she kind of she she had it in her head like you know what she wanted to cover and what she wanted to get out and i again i think i just go back to like she had a kind of urgent it was sort of more like watching an exorcism it was damn yeah i mean i know but like it went to it went no that's exciting like yeah it went through comedy but it also went through tears we didn't end up shooting the she got down to some stuff where there was like got very emotional and you know

just me and her in the room and her really going through some stuff that we didn't end up using in the film but you know uh you can sort of still you know when you see it all cut together I can see that she's been through something you know even though you don't see the tears and the thing I can see that you get the sense this woman is going through something Um, um, in anyways, it's a very, it's not really the way I usually work. I'm more strictly scripted. I don't, I, I, I have done some improvisation with actors, uh, but I tend to write very kind of scripted and be kind of cranky when they change the lines. Um, and so, uh, it's much more like I did a doc, feature documentary. It's much more like that, you know, where you're, you're going with the flow. you know, I guess the only thing difference is in documentary, the stuff that I've done has been Veritay and you really don't, you have a much, yeah, you have a more fluid sense of composition and you really have to follow, you don't know where the subject's going, and there's a different.

In this, we had, it was an interesting combination she chose of, very instinctively, I think, of rigid compositions and totally unrigid performance. like what's the opposite fluid yeah fluid performance like like very like stream of consciousness type performance and the the the mix is uh i find compelling and holds you yeah did you guys end up going to uh the festival yeah we both went um uh yeah we both went to the festival um and i just got back. And it was great. The film went over very well at the premiere. And it means a lot. You know, we don't, you don't make these things to just like put them on the shelf. It means a lot to her. And to me, to an extent that it, you know, this little thing we did at my

house in four days with just the two of us was able to, you know, reach this 500 seat auditorium. and like really like people were laughing at every single thing and it wasn't you know sometimes you get sometimes at a kind of I don't know overeducated audience you get kind of a I don't know like ironic laugh or something like ha ha you know right but this was like a genuine like laugh that that wasn't that still understood I felt still felt the film and felt the the the kind of the the pathos of the film And so it was the right laugh I produced a stand-up show in L.A. And I think this is more what you're talking about

with the ironic laugh is like stand-ups will be in the back and someone will be killing on stage and they will just be standing there going like it'll be the funniest thing I've ever heard and the old heads will be standing there going that was hilarious. Yeah. That was the best joke I've ever heard.

Wow. Can't believe it. You know, it's like because they're just intellectual actualizing the entire thing intellectually distanced from experiencing the film this was not that audience they they really embraced it and uh and i you know and she's talking now with the uh she met you know various people interested in kind of uh showing it elsewhere um and uh and she's also been talking with people about producing it and turning it into a feature and um uh so i think she's gotten what she wanted out of the uh experience so it's uh i think it was good for her i mean it you know it's easy the i mean sun dance is something that you know it's very difficult to get in and uh um it's easy to kind of uh i don't know hate on it for they're not choosing the right things or anything uh but i think those you know when they yeah when the thing is it is uh when you're in it is a very they are very focused

on making it a beneficial experience for the filmmaker. Yeah. And so it's, you know, I think it's, it would be nice. I guess if there were multiple festivals that were at that level in North America, but they're not. Because how are you going to get the industry to all coalesce, you know, five times of a year, you know, when they're already going to Cannes in Berlin and you know, maybe Rotterdamage, you know, like, uh, or in Toronto, like you're,

you're not going to, uh, how many times can you get the whole industry to show up? Well, but also, I mean, like, my buddy made a, uh, documentary and he took it to a bunch of different festivals, but I, I think it ended up getting distribution. It ended up on MSNBC, like the, the channel, not even the streamer, and then it went on the peacock or whatever. I think at the Ohio Film Festival but it doesn't have to be Sundance to get noticed

people are still going I always encourage people like whatever your local festival is I mean granted if it's your local like town festival do it anyway you might not get noticed there

but that's step one you know then then use that to try to bounce up to something slightly more regional and then you know it might take off yes I'd agree

I mean I do think the friend by you know i've been going to festivals you know since the 90s and with staff you know my experience is the thing i've gotten most out of them has been uh meeting my peers and you're making creative relationships uh with them that is uh i think the longer you're in it you realize how priceless that is maybe when you first start out it happens really quickly maybe you're in a school environment where there are lots of creative people about but then when you get out in the world like finding those people that you really click with becomes a harder kind of a thing and so you know if you are in whatever a shorts block and you like that other film in

there i find people are very receptive to i love your film do you want to you know get some coffee or something you know because who doesn't want to hear about how much someone loves their film you know right and and the thing is you do films do reflect the person and so you really are saying like if it is a film that is a personal film that is reflecting who they are their sensibility essentially their soul like you know like i like you like i'm this makes me feel less alone you know and people are receptive to that. And I've made a lot of, um, uh, I try not to be bashful when I really love something because I believe in film and I know that it's not just like this jerk made something good. I know that the goodness of the film is reflect, is probably reflected in the

person and that, you know, chances are that person will be, uh, someone I want to be part of my life. Yeah. That makes it sound like I, maybe even creepy, but like I'm talking about, friendship well but also you you're we're all made of the various art forms and whatever that we take music you know talking about again going back to the idea of scenes you know yeah I was in the punk scene as a kid you know that I and I am the person I am today based me how politically emotionally but based on those experiences you know meeting people vastly different than me with usually much harder backgrounds and all enjoying the same thing.

You know, I don't think it's creepy. I think you're right on track, you know, and also like going to festivals and stuff is a much, when people want to become filmmakers, I think it's too easy nowadays to think like, oh,

and I want to be internet famous because that's, you know, but festivals are where you're going to meet. Again, it's the, I keep going back. to the scene. I'm a broken fucking record at this point, but that's

where you're going to meet your people. You're not going to meet your people. Yeah, there aren't in that most people, there aren't many cities that have a scene. I mean, you, I you're in L.A. I reconnected there with Maggie McKay, who runs Vidiots.

That is a very rare, which hasn't been open for that long or reopened. And I haven't had to get a chance to, I haven't had a chance to get out there. But that's a place that really is like my, in my dream world, utopia, there would be a place like that in every community where all the creative people gathered to show their

work, to watch other sort of, you know, underground stuff, to watch, you know, all sorts of stuff, a kind of film cultural center. And, you know, I live in a, because I teach out here. here in Connecticut. I'm not really in it. I do, I really like the community I'm in. I just, it's not, the university gives me a lot of culture because I teach cinema all the time, but the area in general is not a huge cultural center. You know, it's not full of like actors and production design or painters and like it's, it's not, you know. If New York had their way, Connecticut would be a freeway. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know,

I do think things like vidiates and, uh, when I lived in Austin or was the Austin Film Society and like you know there are cities that have these hubs and they're I think they're really important you know because especially for film which is such a communal art form yeah well the the hour has flown by oh wonderful yeah it is whatever but I'm wonderful that it felt blew by not that it's over yeah but but It was lovely talking to you, and I hope that your students are proud of you, because Lord knows it's one thing to do the work. It's another thing to have it, you know, praised and recognized, and then I'm sure that feels very special. Yeah, I have no idea.

They should be. I don't know. Have them listen to this and tell them, I want them to be proud. I'm now in the age where I'm like their dad their dad's age so like I don't know that they're proud of me I think they're

they're you know they're probably just they're more likely to be embarrassed by me than proud sure yeah isn't that every like rock star who does like an interview they're like oh they don't like my music yeah like I don't I don't really expect that from them I wouldn't expect it from my kids and I don't expect it

my students. They're very, you know, they're into their, their time as they should be. You should start a TikTok and just start doing dances and really fucking up. Yeah. Well, like I said, it was really great talking to you. Congrats on your success. And I keep teaching because Lord knows we need people like you teach it. Thank you, Kenny.

And have a great day. You too, brother. All right. Bye-bye. Take care. reference is an Albot production produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so by going to frame and refpod.com and clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated. And as always, thanks for listening.

Thank you.