Frame & Reference Podcast - 184: "A LIEN" Cinematographer Andrea Gavazzi

Episode Date: April 10, 2025

Today we've got the wonderful Andrea Gavazzi on the program to talk about his work on the short film "A LIEN" which was recently Oscar nominated for Best Live Action Short!F&R Online ► https://www.frameandrefpod.comSupport F&R ► https://www.patreon.com/FrameAndRefPodWatch this Podcast ► https://www.YouTube.com/@FrameAndReferenceProduced by Kenny McMillanWebsite ► https://www.kennymcmillan.comInstagram ► https://www.instagram.com/kwmcmillan

Hello and welcome to this episode 184 frame and reference. You're about to drop into a conversation between me, Kenny McMillan, and my guest, Andrea Gabazi, DP of Alien. Enjoy. it's so cool that you got it into the i mean i know i saw you got the um the sundance the different the other film the feature in sundance but it's cool yeah you doubled up with the oscars well same day i i learned the day of the premiere of the other project that it's a short oh it's a short uh i learned that this other one was nominated uh it's wild you know i i mainly do commercial music video.

I did mainly that in the last four or five years. And I did like four shortups in the last four years, basically one per year. And well, two are doing great.

So I feel like almost like I picked perfectly. I was going to say, how's the hangover after figuring that out back to back? it's interesting because you're like it's an itch that you want to scratch to shoot I mean at least for me narrative

and I wasn't shooting much because the beginning of where I come from my career is I didn't go to film school so you're a photographer right no I did economics oh yeah And then I moved to, yeah, I mean, my childhood game was to direct, but I moved to Southeast Asia,

in Southeast Asia and Vietnam specifically, I started doing a lot of photo. And before that, I was in Brazil for a little bit, I'm half Brazilian. And then working on some sets there, I realized, okay, no, wait, what I want to do is that is cinematography, not directing. I didn't really know how to get into it or anything like that so when I moved to New York going like the travel plan on my life I shot so many short films like that was my beginning of my film school

was short films and music videos but they never come out especially like the ones you do in the beginning like maybe they come out three years later you're like I'm not that DP anymore and not even that person anymore you know so I want to show this to anyone now like I learned

so much more and so this work is unusable and et cetera but it's cute to look back at it sometimes and be like oh wow yeah I was I was actually looking at your Instagram and one of the ones was like here's something that never saw the light of day and I literally

was going to I wrote it down I was like what because I'm experiencing something similar where I'm working on a few documentaries and they're not going to come out for like a year. So, but I hadn't worked in a while because, you know, it's L.A. Yeah. We're just getting hammered.

But like, it's like the only way you get hired is by having stuff come out and people go, oh, they're working. That's good. We'll hire them. And that gap between when stuff starts to come out and when it doesn't can create another gap, you know, and it's, uh, totally. To be honest, it's 100% the reason I switch to, I think commercial work here as ago is because I

wanted to make it, let's say make it through the route of narrative. And first it's, I mean, let's be honest, that it's a million times harder. Like, when I shoot narrative projects, I realize the fraud that I am and how much I have to learn and know, you know.

It's commercial, especially when it starts getting on a bigger scale with better directors, etc. You have all the toys. You have the budget, if you really think about it, of like a Marvel feature per day. If you're doing like a $2 million commercial in three days,

that's insane. It's an insane budget per day. You know, so like you can do whatever you want. And eventually an editor is going to stitch up some 45 seconds. Like unless you're really like that day where, I don't know, another state of mind,

some good is going to come out of that, you know? Well, again, the narrative, the shorts, the first indie features and all that word, it's tough. It's tough because it takes a long time for them to come out. People budget a lot for the production, not really for the post. You know, I have a feature dog that it's, I'm grading this week, I was telling you, we wrapped it almost two years ago. Oh, jeez. Well, and especially documentary can, like, at some point, you have to pick when it's over.

Like, I don't think any documentary filmmaker has been like, and the end. No. Yeah, that's, that is the, I mean, this one specifically followed, like, the director worked on it from the conception to, like, now it's been seven years. It's incredible. And the people in it grew up from being 14. years old to like adults you know it's it's it's very interesting um anyways here we are yeah i mean so did you get um because your commercial work is fantastic i did i didn't want to dive into that but uh were you did you get like your first sort of bigger commercial off the back of music videos

because that seems to be a pretty common yeah i started doing like um super like no budget scrappy music videos with like friends literally me and my ex-roomate will reach out to like bands and be like if you have 3,000, whatever you have we're going to make a music video you know and it worked one time out of 25,000 you know and so the first projects we did like this and the same with other friends and it's literally like I mean the first music video that I think got me other music videos was me pulling focus three roles of 16 so three four hundred foot roles for the entire video you know what's that like 30 minutes of footage yes and we literally the way we shot it it was like with this shot is gonna go in this point of

the song and We got it, you know, like moving out. Like, literally, and I'm, like, pulling from the barrel by myself, um, lighting everything by myself. I had, like, I think these were not even times of stairs. These were quasers. So, like, the first tubes that were out. I think I had, like, three quasers.

And, like, I still like them. Yeah, they're great. Leco, one leco. And I think that's it. like a couple of stands and then like bounces and etc and I'm like moving everything by myself like you know that guy that like the the musician that claps and has like all the how do you call those first a seat or second ace no the musicians street musicians they have like a trumpet and a guitar and like everything attached to themselves and they're like a one-man band street band

yeah yeah yeah yeah i felt like that you know like uh it's all sweaty running around but this music video came out very cool uh and i think it started getting me like some speaker ones but they're still very very small at the time um and then uh you know people that i had worked with i was a gaffer before um as a gaffer were reaching out for me to gaff still some projects. I was like, yeah, I don't do that anymore. I shoot here is my work, you know. And eventually, like, someone called me to do a commercial that maybe it was for any other DP of that circle, like very scrappy small job. And for me, it was like, you know, like a big opportunity. Yeah. And then it's, it's kind of like interesting where like you hear these

for years of like, oh, it's one job that then it's going to open up. It's kind of, it was that one music video that got me like 20 other music videos that got me one commercial and it continued. Do you think having that shot on film

was important? Because certainly when you shoot film, even if the budget was small, it's perceived as being higher budget, but also film just looks really good. But do you think that had an element? Yes, I think there's two things. I was in a circle of super young DPs younger than me at the time that were, like, shooting everything on 16 and 35, like putting their own money and doing it. Because as friends and those people as we're talking about it, it was a conscious reaction to like that look of shallow that was. built white open, like, you can't see anything in the back that was trend, that was trendy

like eight years ago, you know? And I hated the look. It was, to me, it was, I wanted to do the opposite of that. What is the opposite of that? It's 16mm and, like, I'm going to shoot it at 5, 6, and now you can see the set, you know, and I like that look. And I'm going to shoot it on a nine and a half, you know, and, uh, bah, look it, you know, it's an aesthetic. There was an aesthetic of that time, but I think, like, it was a my aesthetic only. It's like, I told you, like, it was, it became a thing, um, and it did help a lot. I think, like, I kind of, like, entered in the right channel, like, right stream, you know, um, and understood just as a taste thing because I didn't like the other thing.

oh I like this thing and eventually that thing was what became trendy and what people wanted to do and that's why it got me more jobs and why other people wanted to do it and then obviously people are like who can shoot film so like then it becomes also almost the problem is like that's I didn't want to beat that you know so it's it's a tricky balance yeah I can't remember I was just talking to but like the the whole problem of like I think any DP obviously has like a preference of the type of stuff they shoot but you know if you get like one horror film that hits now you're the horror film guy and it's like i i actually like rom-coms i wanted i was hoping i could shoot rump they're like nah you shoot horror now yes yes well it's i've years ago i met

larry sheriff the epi of jogger and he was like yeah i i i happen to end up in doing comedy you know and then you like the angle over kind of changes life and like well now I'm not gonna stop and be like no but I want to do like dramatic indie films it's like wow like this all my shit started then you're in it you know and um yeah I feel like it is a thing also for me like now in this short film um I'm getting a lot of short films and I'm like oh if I want to spend the next year doing like 10 shorts 15 shorts, you know, so like, but I do want to make narrative. So I don't know what's the move here, yeah. Yeah. I mean the, yeah, you had such good luck with two of them hitting

real hard. Maybe that maybe you could do to try to find like four more that are that are nominee worthy and then just be yeah, then immediately turn around to be like commercials, commercials. You got to stay one step ahead of the hiring people. Yeah, it's, it's, I mean, I wish I knew the answer to that, I would be using it. Do you find that this is an interesting thought. Do you have, do you, obviously word

of mouth is what gets you most things. Yeah, I worked with this guy. But, you know, with social media being such a hot topic at the moment, do you find that Instagram is helpful for jobs or is more just like

people go to check to make sure you have like an eye. Because I don't even think people really look at reels. I mean, like you have to have a reel, but I don't know how many people look. I feel like most people look at Instagram or not. I don't know. When I moved to the U.S., I didn't even have Facebook. I had no social media in any way.

You cannot find me on the Internet. As a matter of fact, you don't have any photos on me on my social media. But I realized that it's like. Like, oh, you want to, like, you like to play, like, this board game, but you're coming with the wrong, like, pieces at it. It's like, no, you cannot, it's, you literally cannot do it without. So, like, this thing of, like, I'm cooler than it. I don't want to have social media. Well, then you're not, like, it's hard because you're not participating in the discourse, you know.

Like, if the conversation is happening on this platform, then you have. have to be on the platform, you know? It's like, unless you already had done it and you didn't need it, you know. But I feel like anyone starting when I started, it would have been impossible. And sort of now it's an interesting moment because I feel like, yes, I get a lot of jobs from Instagram, not directly people being like, hey, I have this job. Like that maybe happens, but it's more rare. It's more like I think someone sees my work.

through Instagram and then it's like a week later I get an office for a commercial then maybe it's a similar tone of what I just shared so I assume

it happened because of that but I feel today it's kind of dying because of the whole influencer real like 15 seconds like addiction thing like of TikTok

they're talking trying to transform it in that platform, because it's a more of a video-oriented platform now and less photo that when I started, it was that. So I don't really know what is the next, you know, like, I think. And yeah, I don't know, but yes, social media is a massive influence in what we do, no doubt. Yeah, I deleted my Facebook in like 2015 or something, 2014, 2015 because I was just it got really weird and now we've seen the tail end of I'm not going to say I was like nostridamus about it but right around that time I was like this is feeling a lot less like

friendship and a lot more like anger so I kind of rid of it and uh sure enough now everyone always goes like oh you know there's all these groups and you know if you need to buy something Facebook marketplace and I'm like you know what my life is already hectic enough and I and I don't need I don't need to go back you know I'll just deal with I'll deal with the consequences of my own actions. Yeah. Sorry. It looks like you still, it looks like you still shoot a lot of film or is that just

kind of like you have a nice colorist who's really helping you out? It's a little bit of both. I do shoot, I would say, maybe 30% of my projects are on film. But also I work, it's a mix of an incredible luck and maybe things are connected in life somehow and it's not just random chaos

that we move through and I don't have the answer to that. But in 2019 I had a very, very little music video, maybe 2018 actually with no budget and for color. And this friend is like

oh, there is this guy in L.A. He's starting out. It's super nice. They want to agree with him. I mean, we have $300. So, like, yeah, like, it looks nice and let's see. And, well, I graded everything after that project, this person that became also, his name is Dante,

became also one of my best friends and neighbor in Los Angeles. And happened to become also one of the best scholars in the world now. And he's grading, like, insane. projects, you know, from, like, Beyonce to, like, features to, like, massive Super Bowl commercials, like, Instagram and it's incredible to see, like, you know,

the growth from, like, I think his first music video ever was that video that we did together, you know? So it was lucky, and it was something that I realized because I was grading with a lot of different people. I still do, because obviously, it's not available sometimes. But I feel like color in what we do is becoming such a massive part

of, like to be honest, it's almost 50% at this point. Like maybe 6040. It changed the way I shoot also, you know, because like a lot of times where like I'm running out of time and people are pressuring and it's like, we go, you know? And there is like maybe you see like this area here

that is like this maybe stop and a half difference balloons between this and this and I can just power window this you know if I bring a flag

it's going to be 15 minutes it's a static shot like I can just power window and it changed the way I think about a lot of a lot of my approach into shooting has been influenced

by working with him and working with the colors that you know big because it's time mainly like when you grade with with the big companies they have and i mean he's in a great company too but when you grade with like a company three colors or etc they're fantastic artists but they're kind of been more in a corporate work where like you have five hours it's not a big power windowing eyes and mouths and like general look you have time and then when you're done you're done you know there is no like tomorrow

you wake up you rewatch it and you're like oh damn you know I think we went to extreme on the Reds in this scene no this is maybe a little touch you know but this is the the lack and the strength that I found in having

this collaboration that is like this is and we're making this together you know I'm not alone shooting this and like and I know like oh I messed up a little bit on this thing I know he can like fix it um it's I don't know it makes me relaxed knowing that they that exists yeah the when I when I so I for the longest time still today but for the longest time I was coloring my own stuff at a necessity and yeah finally getting like invest in resolve and like the power window definitely changed the way

you know, oh, that's a little bit, exactly as you said, that's a little bit of practice. Don't worry about that. And then now, the resolve has like a relight feature. Yeah. Like I shot this one thing. It's not there yet. It's not there yet.

But yes, I know what you mean. I shot this one thing that the contrast on this dude's face for an interview was like not, I should have punched it up more, but the background would have been, it was annoying. And yeah, having him depth mapped off the back because it was too close to him, right, the background.

and then using the relight feature, I was able to bring the background down, bring him up, and then adjust the contrast on his face. And I was like, fuck me. If I tried to give this to like, as you're saying,

like a real colorist, this would be so many notes that I'd have to be like, hey, so can you fix all this for me? So I've learned I have to be a lot more careful about that when I'm not the one doing it, you know?

Well, the thing is everything is possible. Like I remember years ago watching this, it's unfortunately not a lot. anymore. I don't know why they took it down. There must be a reason. It was the color grading process in the Revenant. Really?

Yes. It was a 30-minute, like BTS of just color, like about the color. Probably a licensing issue. I'm going to look for that now, though. What they did, it's literally every single thing, like

face detail in Leonardo DiCaprio is power window. Like in the eye, the all eyes power window, then just the pupil, just the inside of the pupil. So like they have like assistant colors doing this on every single shot on every single frame of the movie. So then when they're basically relighting because that's all daylight, so they have all the information, etc. So they add in contrast just on this area, you know, and then just you're like basically lighting in post. And that's kind of what they were talking about in.

is PTS, that is sort of one of the first times I saw something. I was like, whoa, okay, like if you have time and a shit ton of money and a shit on a lot of artists to work behind it, you can really do like something incredible. And I think the next step of this, even though I'm like absolutely a hater of AI, is AI's that will do this, you know, that we like separate the different elements of a frame we like just a click of a bottom so like I'm like already power window but then like you can select just my hair

and just like my shades and well there's a it's not even AI that exists in resolve there's magic mask yeah we just click it and draw a little line and then go and I'm sure they're going to relabel it as AI but that's not AI yeah yeah that's it's but stuff like that I'm not mad at

you know if it's like oh this will this computer program will automatically mask all the features like that's great you know rotoscoping takes forever but it's when they start creating things out of nothing then it's like no the the creation side of it is absolutely insane to me because it's so blatantly obvious that they train that using people's work that is not out of air like they literally went on email and took the entire library of email and input it on this thing and then did the same

with films yeah film databases like without asking anybody because there is nobody to check that's the thing it's like

yeah how do you it wasn't an AI police existing because nobody even know that this was happening well and it also to your point about the Revenant thing

like I remember that coming out and everyone going oh my god natural light all natural light like look how amazing this is and it's kind of the same problem with like

the VFX argument people go like see you don't don't need VFX. You just need an expert DP. And it's like, I'm with you there. I agree. However, it is disingenuous for a lot of these like studios or whoever to promote these things as whatever, all natural light. It's like, yeah, it's all natural light. And then. So that's probably the other reason why they took that video. If it's not a licensing thing, it was probably like, hey, we don't want people to know that we did all that, you know. Well, think about the 28 years later that it's coming out this year, right? I know that they're going to be like the whole campaign of it is going to be shot on an iPhone because it's shot on an iPhone right but you saw the BTS photo of that yeah it's an iPhone with a Panavision Zoom with like light ranger on him like O'Connor has it's insane like it's it's the most ridiculous build ever I don't know why like at that point like I understand

shoot on an iPhone, you'd be one to just an iPhone and you're like throwing it out of a window you cannot do that with probably any camera in the work. But to make a build like that, that it sounds like a little bit like of a marketing move and be like, oh, a shot on an iPhone, you know?

Yeah. I saw a lot of people. I'm kind of in the middle on that. It looks great. Yeah. And I think I'd be interested to talk to, who is that, Anthony? Mantle.

I think so I would be interested to talk to him about it because obviously on the one hand you've got the like oh the first one was shot on the XL1S and then the second one was actually filmed and then the third one they're going back to the well

like iPhone like is it the small sensor that they're looking for because on the one hand I agree that like oh that feels kind of bullshit to say it was shot on iPhone because people were saying the same thing about when the iPhone commercial came out when they were like oh this entire press

conference was shot on iPhone and it's and everyone's like yeah but there's like a million dollars with the lighting around it it's like yeah but would are you expecting I guess the thing that I'm on the fence about is like it was shot on an iPhone are you arguing that not you but like are people arguing that if it is shot on an iPhone therefore it must everything else must be cheap no you know and iPhones aren't cheap iPhones are like $1,500 you know it's It's the same place as a mirrorless. My point is like, what is really the reason? Like, is there a technical reason?

I'm very curious. Is it like, because my, this is my point. Is it like a marketing reason? Like Apple, biggest company in the world. You know, like that's what I'm probably. They probably gave them some cash. That's what I'm saying. If that's the reason, great.

I mean, this exists. Sony does that with films all the time to like shoot on Sony base. Fine. I'm down with that. There is no problem there, you know? I know that the reason the shot the first one on those cameras is because they could close London for five minutes at a time, so they had 15 cameras rolling

and you cannot do it on 35, so like, yeah, you're going to go with the cheapest thing that exists. That's great. You're using the limitation, you know, that you have as a, like, power. I don't know if this is what's happening here. Well, anyways. Well, and I think the thing that becomes frustrating with, you know, beginner DPs or younger folks or whatever, when they see something that says, like, oh, shot on iPhone is that the implication is that you can do this too. I think, I think the online cinematography sort of community, I guess, is all about being inspired and giving this idea of like, you can do this too.

because I think prior to like 2007, it was understood that we could not do this too because you had to shoot film, right? Yeah. And if you didn't, if you shot VHS or whatever, then it looked like shit. And now I think people get mad at the implied promise

that that's why the creator, I feel like was such a, you know, it not indie hit. What am I trying to say? Like cultural hit within the space just because everyone was like, I have an FX3.

And, but then they changed up the tune. That lens they put on that thing was, like, incredibly expensive, whatever, like, Lomo or whatever it was. And obviously, they had all the locations and the craziest BFX. I think that makes sense in the way of, like, I want to be quick. Because moving a Panavision millennium, like, Excel, it's like not, like it's... It needs a truck. It's great.

Like, when I shoot like that, I have a 30,000. millimeter. I have a nut on Penelope. I think the best 35th ever made. Okay? Why? Because it feels like a 16 millimeter camera and like you want to change max, bam, you slap a mag, there is not treading, there is none of that.

It comes with some limitations. You cannot do slow on or blah, blah, blah. Anyways, when then I go shoot with like this bigger 35, I'm like looking, three people and me like carrying it around and I'm like damn in 2021,

it's silly a little bit you know it's a little silly like this operation that is beautiful it's great to shoot 35 but like I get why if I was a director

or like a producer or someone is trying to save time and like get as much time for their performances or like as much time in their schedule I get why looking at that looks sitting and makes

you like stressed you know and I think in the greater it's brilliant because I'm like oh we're doing like yeah big budget sci-fi film but I want to feel it like an indie you know and I want to be able to move around and change my mind and be like no actually

we go to the other side and you're moving 25 tracks and like a giant camera in the middle of like the grass you know like I love that I think it's very smart that they did that yeah well and I always try to ask

people who have worked on like big ass films like that. Like what, what are some of the things that the indie world has brought to, you know, the larger space and vice versa? You know, there's a lot. You'll see someone who shot some A-list Hollywood film and then they come back and they do a short or maybe a indie film or whatever. And I'm always interested in like what when going backwards, for instance, what do you not compromise on? Because smaller camera, I don't think anyone really cares, you know, maybe even using the autofocus, no one. But it's like, I remember a camera who, it was but they were like um yeah i will never not have a lighting team anymore like you know

having to light everything yourself or only have like one it's like oh fuck that once once you once you've tasted greatness with an entire team you know it's hard to hard to go back well i i don't know because i didn't really think about this and i don't think i've done things big enough to be like well going back to the still in the small world but you know frankly I think the short film elin the short film that I shot that is nominated for the Oscar is a good example of like no no budget like I shot it with an

Alexa classic of a friend of my you handheld the classic yes I ran around with that thing for days. And then you had to go chiropractor. But you know, I feel like, I mean, now this is not just me. Like I think heavier, it's easier for handheld in terms of like stability. Oh, sure. You know, like, it's just so long, you know.

Oh, it is. But it's, but it sits very well. It's very well designed like the weight distribution. But anyways, I'm doing the checkout in my apartment and, like, all the accessories are coming from different friends, you know? And I'm doing myself, and I don't know who's the AC. The lighting team, I was able to bring people at work on commercials, but the AC, nobody was available. So the director's like, I will find somebody. So anyways, I'm doing the checkout, and I realize the lenses on my friend, the 35 is unusable.

has some fungus, something going on with it, where you put it on and it's like like, if you shoot it maybe like four, five, six pound works, but the idea on this one was to like sort of be almost wide open. Yeah, and everything is really

being tight, you know, so I was like, that's fine. I, anyways, I wanted to shoot 50 and 85, but like, would that be nice to have the option at 35? We're not going to use it, you know? And it's a great example. think of like the gear like fixation uh abandon that you know and like it's like oh whatever we shot with whatever we had and like this still works very well and um what really i think makes the difference is like what i learned on other projects that i had the things and i had the toys

then you can reapply to like something where you don't really have everything you need but you know that like one light in that position back there will work for this entire thing so if you're able to have that one thing at least, you know. And I think

also like in I didn't want to have a lot of objects and things around. I want to be free to move, you know. Almost everything is from the ceiling. Yeah. You know, or from outside because I didn't really want to like turn and then

like, oh, it's a bunch of stands, you know, and tell the actors, oh, you're going to go there. You know, you walk the hit the mark. It wasn't really this, that project, you know. And I think you feel it when you watch it. You feel like you're in it. You feel like it's real. I didn't, I just watched it earlier this morning.

And I wasn't getting the vibe that it was lit at all. Not that it looked unlit, but just like it looked very, like you're saying, incredibly natural in the space, you know. That's good. It's a thing, like, years ago, I started thinking of, like, if I have to be like,

oh, what is your style? What is like, if I really have to think about that, my ideal scenario is what you just say. Like, invisible cinematography. Or invisible lighting. I think when you're able to touch that word

that is not distracting because this is handheld it can be very distracting very present camera you know plus then you have like a very like stylized lighting then you're really like

well what is this is not an immigration office where like you know try to make it look too much like CSI it'll take everyone out of it yes that's what I'm saying it's like that's generally kind of what happens in these

locations you know where like It looks a little too polished because very good cinematographers and the one their shot look good, you know, and the one, like, they kind of rely based on the, like, setup, and it's always like far side and like all these things that I'm like, well, it's not realistic in this place. I remember we are shooting the hallway and that one of the two directors, Sam, he's a great cinematographer as well, you know, he directs, but he's. shoots too. And it's like we're looking down this hallway and we're doing a wide but with a long length. So we're all the way back

on a hundred and the characters are all the way down there and I'm like a little high so you see the fluorescence in Spain and it's like oh why don't we turn off half the hallway the first half is the classic fee

you know that you will do in a location like that so it's moodyer in the It has contrast, and, like, you see the person coming right there in a red area to that. I was like, no, I want to do that because how does that make any sense in, like, a U.S.C.S. building, half of the always black. Like, is that, no, like, it takes me out. I don't want to do. You know, I know it looks better. We saw it.

We turn it off. And I look better. But that's not the point here, you know. And I don't know. I think, like, sometimes, like, you do sacrifice certain things, but you kind of make sense. Well, I was going to say even, like, narratively, right? The two characters are being scrutinized, you know, under a microscope. More light, having everything sort of like, every light on gives itself to the idea that they're being watched.

You know, if there's pockets of dark, they can hide, quote, unquote, you know, like emotionally. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, totally. Yeah. Did you have to clear, like, I imagine you didn't based on the subject, but you, do you have to clear, like, Border Patrol logos and stuff? I have no idea. Yeah, because I was watching this. I was like, damn, this is aggressive if you had to go, like, hey, can we make a movie about you? It's not going to be flattering.

I don't know. You know, I tell you this. Like, we. never made this film with a political intention, even though it can feel like that, you know. But the way I look at it is this, as a foreigner and as an immigrant in this country, to me, it's not about who is in power now or before or who will be. These people, they recycle. They will die. They're mortal.

Like, it doesn't matter. These ideas, those are dangerous. You know, like the idea of like, oh, immigrant, criminal, like, invasor, like, this is the oldest concept of humanity, you know, like someone coming from outside is dangerous, how do we stop them? And, like, I think it's a little bit this, what we're trying to tell in these stories, like, these are people, you know. These are people, like families, fathers, mothers, you know. We're not talking about numbers here. I want to talk about like some random, like, concept. And how do we make this process is more human?

You know, because I think the people that work for eyes and the people who work for the Department of Immigration, there's people as well, you know. But the job itself brings you to like sort of have to like block empathy. You know, I don't think, like, to be honest, like I'm convinced about this. I don't think every person who works for the ICE is like a super convinced conservative that it hates immigrants. It's too crazy, like to think that, you know. These are public employees, you know, that they're, maybe that's the only option they had for job where they were.

I'm following orders type of thing where like, yeah, because this system that you work for is a system that makes you dehumanize who you have in front of you as if instead of like, oh, sorry, I cannot help you can do anything for you, like, your life is ruined. You had like, wait, okay, you missed this for. Let me figure out if we can together. This is what in an ideal country, in an ideal space, would be the reaction. know and that will happen only through a reform of the immigration system that is less a witch hunt and more of like how can I help you like legalize your situation you know well and to your point about the people working there like even if they show up with good intentions you know have you ever heard of killology so basically there's this guy I guess who goes around the country training uh training uh police forces um with this what he calls killology which is essentially that all i think the lapd fucking does this like but it's like the the idea is essentially everyone you run into could could potentially be someone with like a gun who could kill you

so they so they they drill it into these people you know i'm sure some people like oh you get you know, great benefits, good pay, like, I'm going to go, you know, be a cop. Maybe I want to help people, you know, a lot of people, I think, get into policing because they want to help. And then they get there and they're like, you're going to die if you're not vigilant, you know, so then it kind of, you spend how many years in that constant kind of fight or flight mode, like you're, you're, even if it's not how you started, it's how you ended up because of the system that they put around you. Well, it's that and it's also, I think, to be honest, a very, very, very, very stressful job.

like oh sure is maybe they must it's probably more than military at the level of PTSD that you go through the level of like things that you see every day just car accidents you're the first time like you know you're a doctor but you're the first person to be there and seeing like insane injuries like just that affects you as a person you know and it's like I don't know it's sort of a tankless job too like in the last years because of like the way we look at it as like enemies you know

and and it all goes down for the way it's structured because I don't know I don't know if we want to get into this conversation but it's it's like Fouca like

control and punish you know like is the way like the architecture of buildings is made is not random You know, it's done in a way to create a certain feeling about that building. And the same with the actual, like, infrastructure of the jobs. You know, at the end of the day, police is the monopoly of violence.

If you really think about it. It's the only, like, and the same with eyes and all this, with these, like, sub-departments, they're all the only people allowed in society to execute violence if you think of it. There's this comedian who has this funny little rant on his name is

Brendan Lee Mulligan and I can't remember the full, it's like three sentences but he's basically like laws are just promises of violence enacted by the dominant socioeconomic racial group in any given nation. It's like that yeah

that does kind of suck. It becomes dangerous. when you have people behind this monopoly of violence maneuvering it with an agenda. And then it's when it becomes very dangerous, you know. And this is not a U.S. Why police is a conversation everywhere in the world is this, you know, is because nobody kind of found out in between solution where, like, you do need it. that is not in discussion but how do you like manage it in a way that doesn't create like

abnormalities in society where like um it becomes dangerous you know and like um you know i grew up in brazil has an history of dictatorship as a lot of like latin american um countries and it sort of like starts it started through like normalization of these procedures you know

it's a beautiful film that is nominated for the Oscars from Brazil I'm still here oh yeah and they show it there they show it on this film you know it starts with like having a lot of like police

like blockades or how you call it like where they stop every single car you know checkpoints yeah and it starts with that and like people get used to that concept and then people start getting used to the concept

that people disappear you know and then you normalize these these absolutely insane things and life goes on you know and people will keep going even though these things happen And that's what we were trying to do in this film

I think a lot of people know that the ice exists know that these practices are used but I don't know if they are aware of exactly what's happening Yeah, I was about to say something that It's a short time, it's only like 15 minutes But I was about to say something that kind of gives away The I suppose the punchline

If you want to call it that So I'm not going to because you can see Is it is the version that I saw online Like is that free and open Anyone can see that? Yeah, it's a good Pima staff pick, it's open in the U.S.

In other countries, no. The U.S. it's open. Because sometimes, especially with festivals, you know, they get real iffy, if you put something on Vimeo or what. Yeah. No, no, it's out. It's fully out. That's why it was even surprising

for us, to be honest, this old Oscar thing, because we did it in 2021. He did its festival run for two years, a year and a half, and then it was on the email and then we got long listed and we're like oh interesting

well cool and then when we got shortlisted we're like okay wait let's actually let's try to like get a nomination you know what happened we're like oh like wow surreal

yeah I actually now I have two questions now I have three notes did that When you were growing up in Brazil, were they American films that made you want to become a cinematographer? Or were they Brazilian films or somewhere around there? Definitely American films.

Seems to be the case. So basically, from Brazil, I moved to Rome and I did back and forth until I was 18. My father was in Brazil. My mom was in Italy. And in Italy, the father of one of my best friends. is the screenwriter of Darjeantho. So he wrote all the biggest Dariento films. And he wrote also

once upon a time in America of Sergio Leone. What does this mean? It means that in the early 2000, I had access to an insane library of films because this guy is like a film lover. And he was showing kids,

me and his son and his brother, movies that maybe we should be watching at 11 years old but it was amazing it gave me such like a culture very early on I remember seeing the vision of the body snatchers when I was like nine

and like I was like whoa you can do this you know what I mean like I was coming from cartoons of Disney and then I watched that and I was like wow oh like this can be cinema you know and I remember

like watching it yeah and being so scared like for years years being scared I was like damn like the film can affect you like this you know and Joe's the same like it was like another I couldn't swim I didn't see without thinking for years that there was a shark still today to be honest and so I think I think I had that like

like New Hollywood like you know like Spielberg Church Lucas brandy balma like Scorsese, etc. Faze. And then because of him also had like a horror, like Roger Deodato and all the like

big movies, like Italian horrors from the 80s that I watch a lot. And then I think I there was a moment where I fully like started trying to go like into darker, weirder films.

And I think like that happened with, I remember the first one that I was like, oh, whoa, it's like another like epiphany moment. My brother came to my room. I was like, gave me like a pirate copy of Pulp Fiction. That's nice. And I'm like, put it on and I don't know what it is. It's like, you know, I watch this.

It's crazy. And I'm like 14 or 15. And I put it on. and like I remember another moment of watching it and being like, whoa, I want to make this type of films, you know, this is incredible. So definitely, I think I learned Brazilian and Italian cinema later on.

I, like Fellini, Elio Petri is one of my favorite directors, Bertolucci, et cetera. It's people that I discovered when I was like a little bit more adult. And I obviously grew up watching the classics, you know, know, but I think I didn't fully appreciated them until I was a little bit more of an adult. And I had like a different, I don't know, I. Yeah. I mean, it's the same for like I only got into film because I liked, you know,

sci-fi and, you know, The Matrix and Men in Black and Crawford's Brick and all that. And then when I finally started getting into like film as a career, I was like, oh, maybe I should go watch those quote unquote boring movies. And then you end up watching me like, oh, these aren't boring. I was just a child. And I didn't have a frame of reference for this. I didn't have concepts of like these themes that can hit hard. I just liked explosions and aliens.

I mean, even though Chronicles of Riddick is dope still. It's very good. People disagree. I think it's awesome. I mean, the masterpiece. My buddy of mine works at Prop Store, you know, the prop company that likes auctions off. And they've got like three or four remaining necromonger costumes.

and they're only like 1,500 I want the little the little nail that he uses to kill like the aliens, you know what I'm talking about? The nail. He has like two knives or two nails that are done from dead aliens. Oh, the claws.

The claws, yeah, yeah, yeah. I actually, I'll show you later. I made his swing blades. I emailed the director and this would have been like right after the movie came out. emailed the director, and I was like, hey, what are those? And he told me. He emailed me back in like 10 minutes. And it was just like, oh, yeah, those are Xacto knives. And then this is

called the Pakistani swing blade. We just glued them together. And I was like, this is an amazing thing. I have to like compliment of American people in the credit world. You can email, if you have the email, you can email anybody. They will reply in a second. This is not common around the world. Let me tell you this. I can, I just be through it because I try to have big contact with like people in Italy that will maybe support the short or like the academy.

And the opposite experience, nobody's replying, you know? So like, and in the US it's incredible this. I think it's part of why I had a lot of chances too, you know, like moving here. I think like people are so open to like give you a shot.

and I feel like it is I mean it's an amazing quality well I think if I had to guess obviously I lived abroad but like if I just think about my own inbox it's 90% spam or not spam necessarily but like you know press releases or you know you owe us money again this month or whatever you know and then when you finally get an email from a person you'll like, ooh, I will give you four hours of my time. Yeah, yeah. Like a real person. How about that?

You know, so that could be. But I think also, you know, it's a thing that I realize a lot of people are scared of asking for help or just scared of asking anything, you know, like, I think you had some sort of like a naivity in a way, in a beautiful way of just emailing this director and be like, what is that, you know? Prop question, by the way. Not even, didn't even look up the prop person. Just straight to the director.

It's amazing, you know, and I think, like, people feel that and like, whoa, there is passion here and they love that. And I feel like a lot of times I sort of have to, like, almost push people that I know to help them. I'm like, oh, you wait, you need this. I, yeah, I can, why don't you ask me? You know what I mean? I feel like people are, like, we have to really learn the fact that this is a film community,

you know, like. and everyone helps each other and everyone grows together like it's such an important aspect like more and more I think this is actually what we'll save cinema is not some people that are going to

put money into film and then re-sparkle the whole thing and we're like all like waiting like looking up like please like drop some money down here that's not going to happen it's going to start from the bottom and like people making films

we like way less budget that we were used to but everyone is an investor in the film and then yes of course it's sustainable because it costed $4 million to make it made $25

but everyone that was part of it made a lot of money that then we reuse for the next one you know and you want to repeat the experience and then etc etc etc sometimes it would work sometimes it's not going to work but it's going to be way more sustainable than like throwing 25 million dollars at something and then like wait we have to make at least a hundred to make it back like right it's wild you know it's and it's what already did it with in the 70s when the whole studio system was going down like that's what saved it you know it's well and you've seen it all the time you know like with the chaplain invented united artists and uh you know zoetrope and all these

other like indie it's certainly a different situation like a hundred percent but the the sort of basic concept is still there yeah of you know getting you do need funding obviously but but doing stuff outside the studio system and especially with your neons and your a 24s of the world like i feel like there's more distributors getting together and they're willing to like you know find those things and put them out and it does seem like the audiences are very receptive to it 100% I think people are bored and people are like people it's us so like us we want to watch the movies and that we grow up with you know and this like phase of the attention span reducing and blah blah blah it's it's bond to end you know and and and I think it will be cool again to search for the obscure fucking shit you know like Like, did you heard of this punk band that nobody knows? And, like, they're playing in, like, these little barks for 150 people.

Let's go. That's going to be cool again, you know? And that's what I grew up with. Like, it was almost, like, like, a challenge between friends of trying to, like, you know, like, inspire each other and teach each other about new things. And not, like, we all listen and watch the same stuff. It's like, okay, right? We'll talk about it for two minutes.

and it's done. But wait, have you listened to this album because I bought it like in Japan and the weird jazz store? Like, you know, this it's what it's going to be again. What it's sparkles art in general, you know, I think the avenues that we were

given in the last years were cool. Like, I don't really criticize the streaming per se. It was a great new thing. It's not the only way. Yeah. You know, like it's, I think like even

I think like cinemas per se also like they might not be like anymore the way of like showing film but maybe it's retaking spaces that are not supposed to be

for screening a film and you make it that, you know? You know what's funny is every time I go to LAX I drive by what was clearly a theater I think it says Leola on the front or something. And it's changed a few times, but I think it's currently for sale. But its last iteration was like a medical center.

And I always wonder, like, what does the inside of this theater look like that they've turned it into a medical center? You know, with like this, in the wherever the screen was, is there like a sloped floor that they had to account for where all the seats were and shit? You know, like, what are it? His old bats that are sliding down. Yeah. Yeah. Like nurses, distracted nurses that are like running behind beds. Yeah, oh my God.

Yeah, they're having to like climb up the side of the, sir. Oh, fuck, sir. You can. But yeah, just do it in the opposite way, you know. Find a hospital that's busted and turn it into a screening. Screening room or something. No, yeah. I mean, LA, if you think about it, is the perfect example of it,

because there is so many abandoned places everywhere, like empty spots that can become that. And I think contemporary art, has already been doing that for a while. Even the fashion industry, you know, like, it's been doing that. Like, taking, like, forget about doing a runway in, like, this spot that has to be that that costs, like, $150,000 a day to rent. Well, we're going to do it at the, like, a trash distribution center.

Partially because you want to be cool, but partially it's because that place costs 3K, you know? Right. And so all the body can go into like making a better show. And sort of the same can happen in film where like, okay, to distribute this film into like 12,000 theaters in America, it's going to cost this amount of marketing. No marketing. Like zero. Let's make zero marketing into it.

And maybe that money you put it in the credit and maybe the word amount will make it go. You know, like I don't know. don't have the solution, but I feel like obviously something different. It's going to happen. Well, we do, I don't think, like, Alamo Draft House is the answer, but people our age do seem to be, like, experience-driven. You know, actually, one thing that's nice about TikTok is you'll see some band you've never heard of, and right at the bottom, it says add from Spotify, and you just click it and it adds it into your playlist. And then Spotify will, like, email you when they're touring in your area. Like, that's cool. But.

That's a kind of a side thought. I just remembered that when I was going to say earlier. But the experiential thing, I think you're totally right. Like having non-traditional screening venues makes people want to, you know, it's a hook. I used to work at Red Bull. And one thing that they still do that is kind of part of their DNA now is putting action sports in places they don't belong. You know, so you've got like heavy metal was a snowboard competition. recently that was like in a business park you know there's staircases in a business park and so

they like hit that or like um red bull rampage you know which is like a dirt bike or not dirt bike um mountain bike competition but it's like in the craziest mountain you can think of like it's not traditional and people love that stuff um i think there's a version of that yeah where it's like you know our film for the next week is screening at the top of the u.s bank building in downtown you know what it was oh that's interesting that's yeah and you can theme you can theme the like let's say the movie's about fuck all right so let's say die hard hadn't come out you know die hard was filmed in uh century yeah yeah that is the building of uh the studio I produced here actually oh word the office building of their studio yeah my gym is right next to there I probably

shouldn't say that I'm gonna cut that out um but like if die hadn't come out and they like screened it for a week in that building that would be sick well they could do a re re like master version and do that yeah you know i think that's you know like we are where our mind is going it's kind of the road show that tarantino did years ago yeah like i went to it and me too and i think he kind of understood or understands that i mean obviously he both cinemas and etc and like he's in a position of power to that and i'm glad he's doing that you know And people criticize like, oh, it sucks that he both, I mean, he's saving these places. Like, there isn't a line to buy cinemas, you know?

Like, he's probably losing money in making them, to be honest. Like, he installed all those 70 projectors that are in most theaters and they're still used them. I don't know the numbers, but I can tell you that it's not like the most successful business in the world, clearly. But I go all the time because it creates like, I mean, it's just a word. way is done, it gives you something more and something that reminds me of the experience when I was going to cinemas before. And it's the same with the brutalist, the intermission.

I loved it. Me too. Yeah. And I think the intermission is something I remember always. There was always intermission in films where there would be a guy coming by with snacks and popcorns, you know, like with a little tray. I don't know if this was like this in the US but at least in Italy and Brazil was like this

and you buy the popcorn during the intermission or get another cook or go outside and buy it, you know. And you get time to think also what you just watched. You know? I actually interviewed Lowell Crawley a couple weeks ago and

I told him, I was like that intermission came at the exact correct time. Like yeah, narratively it did but it was like two minutes before it popped up I was like I'm kind of getting antsy like I need to like stand up or use the route and then the intervention came on I was like they what did they study like this they must have picked like all right this is exactly when people don't want to sit anymore yeah it's so perfect it's yeah I don't know it's it's it's kind of what it was you know what I mean why didn't we change it like sometimes

I'd really think about, like, there is certain things that's like, why was it changed? There was no reason to change it. Like, it was great, probably. Well, and especially with movies now getting three-hour cuts, you know, it's like, give me a second. Let me, you know. Yeah. Especially like, yeah, to refill stuff. And especially now that the first step of the experiential experience was just like, oh, I can go get another beer.

Like, I can, you know, I can. I don't need Coke. enjoy my evening. I got to let you go here in a second, but I did want to ask because we kind of got excited and skipped over it. Because obviously you had that poppy commercial

in the Super Bowl. You had you got a Nike commercial on there. You got a great looking, you know, what's your name? Catrata Catrazada and Charlie's Gabina. Yeah, all these things that look really just rad. And I was wondering what, when you're doing these commercials for a Nike,

for, what was it, ITA Airlines, for Poppy, whatever, what are some of the elements that you know a client is going to want to see from a cinematography perspective that make it look polished, make it look the way that they're expecting? Because most clients don't know what they want. You just think. Like, is it a lighting thing? Because I'm noticing a lot right now, a lot of popular commercials.

Very wide angle. We seem to be shooting a lot of wide angle now. I think, you know, like a lot for me is, how do I extract the information from the director? Because sometimes these jobs happen so quick, you know, and like people have a million other people to talk to, and then you have like very little conversations. And I love to, like, be involved in so much.

Like, I want to be part of the art department. chat, like it worked everything. I want to know everything because that informs me of how it's going to be because then when you're on set, boom, it's presented in front of you and you have to figure it out. And I don't like, like, I like to improvise when I'm prepared, you know, I don't like to just, like, wing it. And it's a thing I learned, like, also, like, to just tell people, give me a second, let me think about it, you know, like.

And sometimes, like, people sort of, like, feel, like, insecurity or not being sure what you're doing is, like, a negative characteristic, but it's actually a great thing because it's wild to have all the answers. There is no way. Like, you know, I just walk in scouts. You just walk into a location. It's like, so where are you putting this? I don't know. First time I'm seeing this room, give me a second. Let me talk with the direct.

Let me figure out what we're doing. then I will tell you. But years ago, I would be like, oh, here, because I was scared, you know, so I had to give you an answer. And so, like, I think now my process, it's really like, how do I gather as much information as I can so then I can form an opinion, so now I can bring my, like, ideas to the table. And, okay, I think, like, this client, going back to what you ask, or, like, this agent's person is asking, I think what they really mean,

and I try to interpret that, you know? And a lot of times it's also about showing things that they don't really know, like, that they might like, you know, people get super scared, especially in the commercial world, to go outside of the storyboard of what was exactly approved, you know? And then, like, on a lot of commercials,

they do, like, half of the final shots are things that were. never in it that we did maybe even like turning off the VTR and not showing image to the client you know like in between shots and really depends every time it's different sometimes you're working with

agencies that are like super open to that approach and they just like yeah go to your thing and like well love it and then other times people are like no like it has to be exactly what you draw in the like story board that's that's the

that's the approved copy or whatever yeah because there is legal sites behind it you know like a lot of things that I like we don't really know like it's bureaucratic somehow because it has to go through many layers of people

but yeah I think somehow every job is different but the thing that is in common is like how do you get all the information you need to do it because it moves fast and a lot of times people think that you know what's happening but it wasn't communicated well or it didn't arrive to you so like I want to avoid that and I want to be sure like I know everything yeah that's that's that reminds me

of a lesson I had to learn in a very hard ways like my first kind of bigger gig on a feature film I was second unit and I just assumed they gave me all the information I needed and I had questions but I was like why would I'm not you know I'm the new guy here I should just accept what the information they've given me is everything and then I get on set and they're like you know it's not that they asked me this because it went fine but there was just a bunch of things where they essentially it was like well why didn't you get this light or why didn't you know why don't I have and it's like you didn't tell you told me what the gear list was and they're like you're the DP fucking tell us what you you need and I was like shit I was I wasn't uh you know I wasn't proactive enough I wasn't um and even if they said no it would have been better if I asked you know it's I already have the job it's not like you're gonna fire me for asking questions yeah it's I mean to me it's a thing that happened a few times too it's like you're on set and then the director's okay let's do that zoom shot I'm like wait we never spoke about it right it's maybe something

they wrote, you know, on a piece of the treatment and you spoke about it a million times and it was never mentioned again and they're like, then they show it to you and you're like, you're like, you're an idiot, you know? Because, again, there was no time to talk and like, this is the literally something to happen to me. Like, then you learn your lessons and you like learn what questions to ask and like, it's never going to happen again, basically because of that, you know? Yeah. Don't be paranoid, but be proactive.

Yeah. Yeah, I think it's actually people appreciate questions. I appreciate it. 100%. Like you're knowing or asking of you, you know. Yeah. Well, yeah, I'll let you go because I assume it's dinner time over there. It is.

Yeah. Thanks so much for coming on the show. Yeah. Yes, thank you. And the short's great and congrats on all the nominations and stuff. I look forward to the Oscar season. Or day, whatever, whenever it is. Yeah.

All right. Thank you, man. Take care, brother. Bye. Peace. Frame and reference is an Albot production, produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so by going to frame and refpod.com and clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated.

And as always, thanks for listening. I'm going to be able to be.