Frame & Reference Podcast - 186: "Daredevil: Born Again" Cinematographer Pedro Gomez Millan

Episode Date: April 24, 2025

Today I'm joined by Pedro Gomez Millan to talk about his work on Episodes 4 & 5 of Daredevil: Born Again!This is Part 1 of the Daredevil series, as it were, because next week we've got Hillary Fyfe Spera on the program to talk about shooting Eps 1-3 and 6-9!Enjoy!F&R Online ► https://www.frameandrefpod.comSupport F&R ► https://www.patreon.com/FrameAndRefPodWatch this Podcast ► https://www.YouTube.com/@FrameAndReferenceProduced by Kenny McMillanWebsite ► https://www.kennymcmillan.comInstagram ► https://www.instagram.com/kwmcmillan

Hello and welcome to this, episode 186 of frame and reference. You're about to drop into a conversation between me, Kenny McMillan, and my guest, Pedro Gomez-Milan, DP of Daredevil, Born Again. This is a two-part series for Daredevil. Next week we'll be talking to Hillary 5.5. Spera, the co-DP of the show. But for now, enjoy. I did one, the only dog that I think I did like a feature, it was Saturday night. It was like a John Markovic episode of Esenal.

We followed him. But like in 2009, we followed him through behind the scenes for a, for a week of the SNL just to kind of like see how it was on but it was like during film school so I didn't do a lot of

before or after that's that's a hell of a film school film to do yeah that was that was awesome I mean you know like just

the shooting documentary is great because you well the task back then was like to watch behavior, you know, just to watch actor, like, not even actors, you like people in general, and then how that applies to storytelling and narrative

and acting and how the camera reacts. So that was actually pretty great. I wish I could do a documentary for every film, every project I shoot. Like, that will, I inform so much, you know? I've said a million times, like, I miss, I have like, obviously a bunch

of the Blu-rays and stuff, but the the death, so to speak, of, like, special features, like, good ones, not just, like, EPKs, but, like, Guillermo, Guillermo del Toro is awesome. Like, the, the Hellboy 2, like, making of featurette is longer than the movie. It's super interesting. Yeah. It's amazing.

Yeah. And especially Guillermo, which is such a specific, you know, like, new ones director and all the behind, like how he gets to do what he does is so amazing. Like, nobody likes him. So all those dogs are great to see. Yeah, he's absolutely one of my favorite directors. And also, I just love his world building. Like, you know, even with like Kronos or whatever, we didn't have that much of a budget.

Like, just being able to his like addiction to like little trinkets and production design and stuff, I think is like top, top three for me. Yeah. I heard it sounds like a museum, and I read it as it would be fantastic. You know, like he has all these little things around his house and living room. Yeah, what's he called it? So cool. Yeah. Yeah, that'd be my sister a few months ago, I mean, last year sometimes, she was at some diner.

And she just took a photo of the back of someone and she goes, guess who's at the diner? And I was like, well, that's clearly, Guillermo. like it's a very specific looking person you know yeah did you say anything no no she just was like guess who's here and then she's not gonna bother anyone like that right of course yeah so you didn't start in doc but did you um was it all like commercial after like what got you out of film school right so i was shooting just anything man i was just like um I started kind of like doing independent films, like small independent movies and in New York and in LA, you know, like low budget, you know, directors, you know, I went to NYU.

So some director will like get to the program and ask anybody, you know, we're looking for a young VP and I'll just apply to all of them and I'll just go into the interview. review and I got I got one and then after that they recommended me to another director and I get another one and you know it's just like one job takes to the next thing but while I was shooting while I was in film school I did like just to random you know video jobs it's just like I was I was shooting you know like these corporate videos for Moa Hennessy like the champagne So like they would, you know, we would go at night on the weekends to like club hopping in the West Village with all these models. And I was just like, order a bunch of bottles and sparkling and, you know, shoot the thing. And then shoot for like a few minutes and then basically parties that.

Which was like a sweet gig. But at some point, I was like, I just, I can't do this anymore. But, you know, you do whatever, whatever you can well in film school. Yeah. I used to work for Red Bull in film. in film school and it was roughly the same thing you know

we'd go on premise and they'd be like all right we're going to get two tables you know bring in whatever order whatever bottles and just make sure they give us like 15 Red Bulls and start taking photos and you're like all right

and it's like barely a job yeah totally yeah you're just like one Red Bull and two Red Bulls and one hand the camera up the other one yeah you got to make sure the label's faced

and that's the you know oh yeah totally get the label all that shit Yeah, those like corporate like F and B gigs are very educational when it comes to like, I've never shot like a legit commercial, but even like wed stuff, you know, and of course it's lower budget. Like I've found that that is a skill or I guess a set of knowledge that's been helpful to me because even sometimes the producer on set or director doesn't won't catch stuff like that. you know, facing the label, making sure there's not a dent. Like little things that you'd be like,

oh, that that won't matter. It's like the brand is going to care. The brand is so picky. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean,

commercials are sometimes, it's, it's a nightmare in that way. Sometimes, like the label, everything has to be, I remember I was shooting commercial. What was it?

It was like some sort of bread. And I was like, I told the director like, hey, there's like, there's a ring. call there like and he was like oh okay turn out the monitors and fix it so don't let anybody don't let the client see it just turn everything up we'll fix it otherwise it's just going to become like

you know hours of talking about it so i did that and then nothing like nobody saw anything said me and him and you know we continue but it's like one of those things that you know like commercial work so sometimes you know it is what it is and that's why you're there for but sometimes it's a DPL or can we just move on. That's actually why I still use a light meter because anytime the monitors are up and you start like putting

pieces together there's always someone over your shoulder like well is that going to be that dark is that going to be that? You're like just wait so if you have the light meter you can set everything up and hey can we get a monitor you're like yeah just a second you keep doing the you know you look really busy then you turn it on that totally yeah nothing like the meter

right I mean I mean, I've started using the EL son recently, and it just, yeah, it just feels like, like, I wish that was there like years ago. It just feels like same language, right? Like just talking about stops and now with the TAT is just so easy to like, okay, once, you know, the Gaffir is there, everybody's at the TAT, just go one stop, make it, you know, changes. So it's so almost like in nature now. I still use my meter though, but, but the EL son is so I like it so much. Yeah, it's, it's definitely become more difficult from like the tungsten days or whatever when your gaffer's sitting there with the iPad and you're like, uh, I guess I don't know,

5% was like the percentage just don't, you know, like I wish there was a way to like, I guess that doesn't work with inverse square law or whatever, but I was going to say like bring it up a stop. like unless they also have a meter like so you just sit there with your spot just going more more okay good right right right yeah i remember those days like just one more one more oh yeah it's one spot and then you're good and then you know you're showing on film so you know you don't have a a way to confirm less until like you know you see a daly's and and then you mess it up or or it looked Great.

Yeah. I was talking to, I have an intern now, shout it to Adam. And I think I was talking to him. It might have been someone else. But I was having to explain that there's no way to like use false color or whatever on film. Because I was like, no,

the monitor is just like looking basically through the eyepiece. There's no there. That's not like that's not representative. Yeah. You're shooting. I guess from newer people's harder to conceptual. Did she on that? Did she get.

that? Yeah. It was, I think that was, I think it was a quick conversation, but, um, yeah, it's, it is funny to, to now have to like, things that I think are second nature. And I'm trying to fold that into the, to the podcast even is like remembering that, you know, 15 years of experience. Sometimes there's a lot of shorthand that if someone, if someone's trying to learn from listening, it's like, even just on Wednesday on set, like, what,

watching like kind of look at us me and the gaffer talk back and forth and watching and go like I don't know just moving on it's like yeah I mean I can imagine like coming up you know learning without the base of film like shooting on film like I'll be so intimidated shooting on film on 35 you know like if you if you are studying right now and you're like you know all you have, or you're actually learning the basics through digital and then trying to apply that to film, you know, like the opposite of maybe how I grew up. I would, I don't know, I don't know how I think it's just like it's harder, right, to maybe, I mean, maybe not. Maybe there's for sure people out there that are studying this right now and probably have it all like

figure out. But for me, I think it will be harder because I just started, you know, from shooting 35. I know I think it is harder because like the number of times the PAs on that shoot were like what can't like their first question what cameras are you shooting on and I think that now you know with film there was no shutter speed really there was no like basically there's no shutter speed to think of ISO was set all you were thinking about was light and maybe the stop but like now especially with digital cameras the most affordable ones are stills cameras so your brain starts going to going into like, oh, if my exposure's wrong, ratchet up the shutter speed, change the ISO, whatever, whatever, which aren't necessarily things in film. And you stop thinking about the light beyond maybe positioning, you know, or I shouldn't say stop, but it's not your first inclination to think about lighting. Right. Yeah. I would say I remember those days

where you know shooting on film and have your still scammer, right? And then you set up the 150 at shutter speed and your ISO and then you just mess with the iris. And then, you know, that was your quick reference to do that. But then

you know, I started doing still tutorial. I feel like I have a dark room and in high school and college that was so formative those years like to later on i was actually becoming at d p and and learning how to shoot film and and then i started putting it putting it together you know like in grad school actually i don't want you when i start shooting stills while shooting film then that translated into video that was like oh okay if i get those setups on my video camera as I did it on film then it should

look all right and yes and that that that is just like the easiest for me in bridge

to kind of transitioning to the details cinematography yeah do you still shoot film photos yeah

yeah I knew I have like an Olympus oh nice OM2 yeah yeah

I try to shoot as much as I can. I haven't, I haven't shot much more recently, but I still tried to do it. Well, films like $600 a roll now. You got to, you got to really want it. I know. I know. Yeah. I love it, though. I, you know, when I travel is when I shoot the most. And, um, but yeah, I still, I still, or I, I do also my other camera. I might. I shoot, I should, I should more on that one. Which, which one? It's a Fujifilm TX2 Oh word Yeah I've got I've got

I never like I don't sell cameras So I just have a collection But they were I got them all because like I needed that new body I don't like just buy them But I have like an XT3 The Fujifilm XT3 I have an X100 V I got a 50R

I've got Nice And then yeah the the Nikon F2 And a AE1 AE1 the RZ 67, which I really like, but I can't, you can't take that thing. I used to do, that used to be my only stills camera was my Mumia and people would be like, well, I had an icon D9, but if I was going to do like a real job, I'd, I'd be like,

hey, this is going to cost a lot. Because I only get 10 shots per roll. I got to go get them to vet. It's not fast. You know, we got to wait for things to happen. But I do, I do miss shooting like jobs on that camera because everything came out looking so. so much higher quality than I could have done on digital at the time. Totally, totally.

I mean, still holds up, man. I love it. I haven't shot any, like, on film, like, projects in a while I'm craving me. I'm looking for that, for that next project to be on 35. I mean, it's certainly coming back, you know, I think, especially with, like, the brutalist win in an Oscar and obviously Oppenheimer, but Oppenheimer felt like, probably inaccessible just because it was all iMacs and stuff but i think film i think koda i was just at the kodak awards and and i think they've kind of got a fire under them about

trying to get film in more people's hands and trying to spool up production and stuff that's great and i also feel like you know a younger generation they were like why don't we get to shoot on film so i feel like a lot of like younger people were pushing for that and like you know shooting low budget music videos on film like they figure out how to like how to do that and I think that's that's amazing if it wasn't for them you know like I don't know if it could I go or you know those companies could support just by you know like the bigger film like uh the redolids or all of those because there's there's a lot of like what I see a lot of you know commercials not not most of them but I do feel like

there's a lot of younger people pushing for that. Yeah. No, that's the one thing. I see a lot of commercials shot on 16. And it's usually for like Nike or whatever.

Like for some reason, there's like a very specific brand of commercial that is shot very raw on 16, sometimes eight. Wow. Yeah, like the bands, all these like sneakers or like,

yeah, yeah, or even like, It was a beer commercial. I got a deck for a Corona. It was like very, very film-like, like Super 16, which I love it. It's great. I have this theory.

I think I'm right. But I've had this theory for a long time that, like, when digital first came out, you know, when we were working with like the DVX 100 or the XL2 or whatever, you know, getting into the Canon 5D kind of era, we were all like, oh, how do we make this look more like film? Because literally the digital looked worse. And I think that vernacular stayed because now like younger people go on Reddit or wherever and say like, how do I get the film look? And I think they don't actually mean they want it to look like film, but they see it so much they think they need it to look like film. What they really mean is how do I make this look good? Because digital looks great if you know how to make it, you know?

100% 100% yeah I think I think that's like a language there you know

it's some it's some clarification you're right like if you sometimes I don't really care about the camera at some point I mean

I'm going between Venice Alexa 35 or or film but sometimes I mean you get a bunch of DPs in a room and you tell them tell me

which camera was a shot on and you know ASE or whatever like most top DPs like they wouldn't they wouldn't agree you know if you don't tell them like this is venous either by this you know you can just make almost anything look the same any camera device but there is definitely like you know shooting on film it brings like a different way of working on set that I personally feel like If it's a right project with a right director, with the right actors, it'll be super interesting to do. Yeah. But, but, but, but, you know, like you can make, you know, you can make an award, um, looking film on, on digital easily. Like, that's not a problem.

Yeah. I noticed in, uh, in Daredevil, is all the BB was a BB report? Is that all on film or is that an emulation? I think that that's an emulation. I don't think they shot on film, but I didn't, I actually not sure, because I didn't have to do with that. They showed that at the end of the principle of photography,

and there was something that they, you know, they kept pushing, because they were not sure about that concept, they were like floating around. And there was like these documentary filmmakers that someone on the team knew about, And they show their footage, which is basically that, you know, like very, like, authentic, you know, people talking from the camera. And they were like, great, let's bring them over and have them shoot, like, a bunch of these for the show at the end of the principal. So I was long gone.

So I didn't really know how they did it. But I don't, I want to say, and I doubt they shot in film. I feel like there was more a digital thing. Yeah, well, whoever did the emulation, if it is, it's great because it looks very authentic. But I did also think it was funny, like, that in this world, there's a documentary filmmaker or like a man on the street news reporter who's investing so much money into their, you know, they're getting like a, you know, an SR2 or whatever. and they're like, I'm going to make sure this this you know,

humans of New York kind of thing look incredible. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, that was great. I think it add up to the story, you know, in a way that it relates a lot to

New York, which was also like a character that we talked about, you know, in the broad terms with the showrunner. And then it was like, how can we bring New York into the storyline visually, you know, with a camera, but also like that definitely supports that idea, you know, with people of New York and the audience. Yeah. That's great.

Did you shoot New York? Yeah, we shot, we shot in New York. We shot a lot of locations. I mean, we had our main stages, you know, our recurrent sets, Silver Cup, but it was definitely like, like something that we wanted to go out on location in Brooklyn, restaurants, bars, streets

like make that feel very, very present and there were like some epic locations like and sometimes when you shot on location you know there's like I mean I don't know when this is airing but on episode it'll be after the season has ended

okay so you can episode six or seven there's we shot on oh my god I'm forgetting the name of the restaurant is in Brooklyn

it'll come back to me it's like one of the oldest restaurants Italian restaurants in Greenpoint in Williamsburg and it's the moment that Luca gets shot by Buck and it has such a great feeling you know so it's really hard to

decepticate those things on set, even though our purchases are, like, amazing. Yeah. You know, once you go out to those locations and it's like, what do we have to change on this, on this, like, nothing? You know, the curtains, the wallpaper, everything, they just light it and, and it all feel cinematic. Yeah. No, was the, was the bank, the bank must have been a location. Oh, yeah. The band was, the location.

Oh, that was, that was such a hard set for me technically. Really? It was a, you know, it's a same bank that they shot, Spike Lee shot inside man. Dude, it, yeah, it does look like that. I mean, it is that. That's, that's actually kind of cool. Yeah, it's so cool. Because it's kind of like an amosh to insomain.

I mean, it's on the paper, you know, like you read as like a bank eyes. You know, there's like robbers with masks. hostages, negotiating with the Polini's. And then we went out scouting different banks. And it turned out to be like that one was the most appropriate for the story. Like we were not just going out, oh, let's shoot on the same location. It just happened to be like the best location. And then we found out like the mural.

There's a mirror on the lobby, which is the same mural that's in the movie. And our art director did it. So they get it all these years. like they didn't you know it's still there that's awesome and so that building sits in the middle of wall street so it's like high rises uh on both sides like very narrow streets and they're like you know window like rose like eight or ten windows on each side like 15 feet uh high to 10 feet wide maybe so you're you're in the lobby like in the middle of the day, it's like sunny out there, and you're in the lobby, and it's like a cave.

I'm like reading my light meter on the sky like 0.7. I'm like, I'm not getting any, any ambient light, like, whatsoever. I have to light everything. And, you know, Wall Street is like an admirer to shoot there because they don't allow us to close the streets. So I have to like push a lot of light from outside from all these windows. you know, we need to put the condors out there, but the streets are down there on the... It was just, like, very stressful,

but we were able to, like, manage it and put, like, a bunch of 18Ks shooting into the windows and augmented with... With some, we did some rigs with vortex above every window to push down, but then at the same time, and it had both sides lit with vortexes and pushing through the windows.

But then at some point, like, we're going to be seeing all these lights, right? Like, there's like action scenes in there. Like, we're spending, like, a week on that set. And I would like, hi, everyone, for me to achieve this, like, it's going to be a lot of cleanup. So we did, we had a conversation with the BFX team, and I decided to kind of, like, get rid of one side.

otherwise it would be super costly and it was fine because you mean like not rent those lights yeah like only have one red from one side but that will keep me like the contrast ratio that I was looking for anyway I would just kind of like playing it safe I would probably would have kept those lights off

but then but then yeah and then at the end of the day it was only like three or two or three shots that we had the lights in the back and it was not a big deal but it was a beast that location

yeah I imagine like whenever I think of big windows like that I always imagine like that's kind of what those CRLS reflectors were made for just so you can keep everything tied up against the building you know instead of doing a condor

you can just put it on the ground shoot it up into the reflector yeah the thing with that is like then you get really limited on the angle and I needed the beam to come in deep because then I will be you know TV it's a Marvel show

but a TV schedule you know so we had to go so that beam allowed me to like you know when going to close up kind of like put a bounce bounce card and maybe maybe do another unit in the ground and now I'm ready you know so it was it was really

really efficient. I noticed in a lot of cases, the windows, I appreciate just a blown out window. I don't think we need to see. I think people are too addicted to this idea that you need to see what's going on outside. I don't need to see. But I noticed in a lot of your guys' setups,

the windows are blown out. I was wondering if they were just blown or if you had like diffusion up on them. You mean in the back? The bank and in the other episode. well the bank they were like we didn't have any diffusion there and it depends on this

on the on the on the set because sometimes we're shooting on the stage but most of the times you know even if we shoot on the stage like we have we have backings and back drops so I think we we let it blow I mean I don't mind it either

as long as like there's some picture there and also it depends it depends on the scene because sometimes it's nice to you know in the fist office for example like it's nice that is blown out but there's some like like sure right like to your eye you know if you're in an interior and the sun is like pushing hard outside you barely you know there's some shape on it you don't see a lot what's happening you don't see like detail but there's some shape shape of thing. So I don't remember putting diffusion. There's probably like some

just sort of sheer in Cortance and then just let it not really blow out. Yeah. When you talk about efficiency, I've asked that question not like how did you stay efficient, but recently, like I was saying, working on these

other documentaries, which is like TV budget times 100 or minus 100, I don't know. I found my buddy, my producing buddy, kind of pulled me aside and he was like hey man don't be afraid to ask for what you need for because i was running around trying to be fast and you know if they said hey we're under budget i would start like trying to find out things to cut and my buddy was like don't do that like ask for what you want and then they'll tell you if you can get it i was trying to be too nice

and like self-limit and they're like but that's going to look bad um so that was definitely a lesson for me but I did want to know like what where did even though like you said Marvel budgets but also television schedules and stuff when do you you mentioned it with like killing one row of lights but like how do you approach those conversations when you know even if there is a budget if there isn't a budget like asking for what you want having those conversations about like well if we don't have that then this or you know any of that kind of thing I think like it comes down to do you know at the end of the day it's you're part of a team so you want everybody is working for the best show interest right so

uh i remember you know going to that location and trying to feel first trying to figure out how am i going to light it on the scenes that are going to take place there and then and then i was like i i need to talk to the producer so they know what the plan is because i cannot just show up and start like seeing all the lights in the background because you know i'll be probably here uh so it's it's like this is what i need to get it done and it feels like it it's affecting other departments or the budget or or time on set or even the director somehow or the performance if there's if if what i need it's getting in the way of someone else i should bring this up and we should talk about it. And, and what's great about good producers, like, they know that you're working

for the show, that you want the best for the show. So they're not going to go on and say, hey, you can't do that. There's more like, how can we figure this out together as a team, and how can, what are the things that you need, and how can we help you achieve that, that we can also, you know, like finishing time, don't go over time. And how can, have this look great. So I remember that conversation. We were the producers, the director, and the VFX team. And they were also trying to understand really what the issue was. So as a DEP, you know, like you're doing a lot with technical stuff, but also you know what the story is and with the director. And no one else, you know, the director is also sometimes

limited on the technical side and the producers are also limited on the technical so you're kind of like a you're a common ground um so you kind of like need to speak up in terms of like creative and story but also production and lights so that was uh that was a great conversation because feel like everybody was kind of like working towards simple and we we we were able to do that so i feel like any time like i was shooting in new orleans too recently and you know there's a lot of you know, you have to stop because of the lighting over there for like half an hour. So you cannot have condors or, and I was like, well, I need, I need this lights up on condors. And if it rains or we have to shut them down and continue shooting the scene, like this is not going to be the look that we talked about with the showrunner.

So we need to come up with something else, like a location, you know. So again, the team's trying to solve that problem. Gotcha. It worked out great that time, too. Yeah. Obviously, this is like, I don't know if you want to call it like a sequel, but it's a continuation of the previous show. Was there a conversation about trying to maintain a look with that show,

or are you guys given more like, hey, you know, do your own thing? Because I noticed even like between the DPs, there's a little bit more of like it seemed like y'all were allowed to kind of go your own way for each store for each uh episode well yeah there was like uh you know there there was a creative it was like a before not the strike i don't know if if you're aware of that but uh you know oh you filmed you started filming before the strike yeah we started like the brep was 22 uh and we started shooting early 2023 we shut down the strike shut us down and then we came back 24 and there was like a creative overhaul you know with a after the strike a new showrunner came came and new directors new

rewrite so basically marvel team sat down during the strike and so the direction of the where the show was going and decided to go somewhere like in a different direction, right? So we had the opportunity very unique to also not just, you know, bring the direction in another, I'm sorry, bring the show in another direction in terms of writing, but also visually, right? like the teams have done and say, hey, we like this. We like, you know, the organic handheld camera on mad. We like the flares when possible.

That doesn't feel force when on his ear sensitivity. So there were visual elements that we started incorporated. They were already there, but we leaned a little stronger after the strike. And, you know, about the previous season on Netflix, there was, you know, it's such a great, great iconic show. I mean, it's just like epic. So we just wanted to build on top of what it was done already. So, yes, we took references on a lot of those things,

but we also wanted to like make our own show and without, you know, or taking the previous seasons into consideration. I don't know if that responds there. Yeah. Yeah. One thing I noticed, too, is there's, I was wondering if, or kind of like what the conscious decision was, if it wasn't even a decision or if it was just like a scene. But like in a lot of cases, it's a very like kind of expressive naturalism. And then coupled with that, there's like a heightened realism of like a lot of, you know, teal and not not even not even orange. There's kind of like a magenta thrust to it. But there, there's, you know, there's. There's, there's the, I think of it in the light terms, there's CCT and then there's Hussat, you know, when did you, when did you choose to like go between, oh, this is just a daylight versus, oh, this is now a blue daylight, for instance. There were, you know, like our conversations about color where, you know, we want to, you know, we wanted to support the characters in this. For example, like in Fisk's world, the daylight comes a little cooler and stronger, a little bit more monochromatic in terms of cameras, like very stable, very symmetric, strong compositions, like studio mode 100%.

And Matt, durable, was loser. It was like handheld most of the time for his scenes. The pulsing red, you know, red was like a very specific color to tell his story. And, you know, the nights were a little bit like color mix. I think like sodium vapor was like super, super strong throughout the network. But we also wanted to make it colorful. And, you know, I always tried to throw in in their like color mix. I love color contrast.

And we also, after the strike, we realized that we want a little bit more interactive lighting just in general. So when we're shooting on the street, like, we'll throw, like, moving light in the bag or two or three, and then we're starting, like, doing some flashes or car spassing. And, like, also in Matt's apartment, like, there's a little bit more of, like, cars passing. And you can see, like, the shafts and the shadows of the windows. like, you know, reflected and that, you know, gave it a little bit more, makes it feel a little bit more dynamic, especially not in March apartment, but it's, he's blind and, you know, there's no lights or practicals thrown on that up, which I think it's great. It's like a great, great look. So the only, the only lights are coming into the apartment, like, through the outside. So, you know, like, there were, there was that discussion in general. And, and, and, and, and, We also wanted to make it feel like organic. Like this show, like specifically opposite to, you know, the previous show,

we wanted to make it feel a little bit more analog is a question, but like do a lot of things in camera, make it feel a little bit more like naturalistic, as you were saying, like a little bit more natural light and brace the flares when possible without making them feel forced. So, yeah, yeah, and then we lean a lot. like 70s movies was referenced

you know like French connection tax driver all of those yeah was there for you

is there like kind of a default mode because I it's been a minute since I've seen the episodes because they gave me

those screeners for like two days and then I forgot and then I was like oh no so like one morning I like marathoned as many

as I could before the screeners but I wrote down a bunch like big soft keys soft soft soft like even in like the interview room you know somehow like he's right up against a wall and you're still able to get a very nice

soft key and I was wondering kind of how you manage that and also like is that sort of your default to just more feel the key than like see it you know you mean in the interview with uh with Leroy yeah like through the through the glass through the glass yeah um for sure i mean i i like to feel things rather than notice them or being obvious right like like a little bit those magic tricks so i think like that those scenes you know we we also wanted to feel like oppressed you know

like that, but those things are a little bit like how the justice system oppresses, you know, like people and some, you know, and one of his lines are like, you know, the city is spending more money on getting, like, having me on sale that footsteps, you know, like. So it's so unfair sometimes how the system works for people. So, I wanted to come from top, you know, like a little harder on Leroy because of the darkest, darker skin, and he definitely took a lot of light, you know, like just to punch in there, but also like just to make that character feel oppressed. So, yeah, though I think a lot of the interviews, too, with White Tiger, you know, when he's being interrogated by Matt, It's kind of like the same, the same motive, you know, like feeling sources, feeling the light, but, but make it just feel like one source.

That was also one of the authority thoughts, just like one source that lights everything, you know, just not just not on those locations, but just in general, just make it feel like one, one key source. Yeah. How did, how did, uh, how did you get that, uh, how did you get that, uh, um, side key was that just like a tube because he's like right up into that corner I was like there's no way there's like a light mat there no I think it was like a little

little pocket light you know like those really what is it yes 83 or 810 what is that hydrop panels no it was like those small round lights oh the dash

estera has oh astera um but like 83 or something like that. Those older ones, yeah, yeah, yeah. The, the round ones, we just sneak it in there. And we also, you know,

we sneaked on tubes too with like the snap grid. But yeah, very, and those were set. So sometimes, you know, like we, there's that many wells we can move. Sometimes we can move as well. So it's like, gotcha.

Single tubes. Yeah, I also noticed that, I think near the vending machine, I felt this really cool, like theatrical backlight spot thing going on. And I was like, that's neat. Like, I just like the balance between, like, again, naturalism and being more expressive with it,

more like theatrical. Yeah, I think like we took a little bit of freedom to make, like we wanted to show to feel naturalistic, but also have those kind of like comic, stylized visually. more interesting moments like that is one of them or for example the basement you know like when this is coming down the basement there's a scene in the coming book where king ping is lighting up a cigarette and he's being lit up from that so the light is coming like from from underneath

kind of like and and the team the marble team was like they were talking to me about about that and like trying to emulate that especially on the basement So you can see Fez kind of coming through through spots of light, like shadow into the light. It's like hard underneath and we also lit him, you know, on the basement like that with like basically tubes that are lighting off the walls. And that was like a motif for me to like stick in like a unit and come from from underneath. So those moments are like, you know, basically.

trying to bring the show into the comic light up a little bit more, but it's still keeping it natural overall. Right. In the safety deposit box room, was that whole thing only lit from that bulb? No. Well, I had a couple of, I had art department to put a little, like, you know, like those security lights.

I would turn them on and off depending on the camera angle but also brought you know for close-ups I brought in like another unit just to run up the phases but mostly yeah mostly like I think so

I think like most of the space would lit with those practicals the same on the staircase and staircase fight because that was so tight like we had a one day to shoot the whole fight and at the end of the day

we're like just we're just running you know I produced it like right there like about all the plaudy and like just one morning like we need this shot you know I think the shot of like the gun about to fall down and he catches there

so the whole fight I would like how can I move as fast as possible and make it look good I had to lean in light and that was all location in the bank is not like we could move walls and with this crazy rig the camera like that was in between the staircase coming in and not so that was a lot of of things

that we had to manage but that was mostly led with like those practicals yeah what what kind of resources does marvel afford you obviously you know Disney's got more money than God at this point but I assume that it gets you know distributed uh between you know you and the the the parks and whoever like is is working on a show like that um any different in an appreciable way uh or is it kind of just more the same no i think um i think the difference um is that you have access to you know i mean we still have certain limitations you know like the wall street show like we couldn't we we could just close the street for a certain amount of time and we needed way more of that and we had to figure out but you know I think the VFX department is really

strong and they're always um you know talking to the cinemator firms and how can I help you just let us know is there anything we can we can do so I I really appreciate that you know Opposite to other shows, I feel like the BFX, people are always there. They're super nice. They're amazing at what they do. And you feel taking care of. So that's, that's really nice. And at the end, and also, you know, like production-wise, I mean, it's such a large show.

Like, I remember we were taking over, like, when we went out for location, you know, we will take over three to four blocks in Manhattan of, like, trucks and stuff. So that infrastructure of, like, you know, being able to, like, close certain streets and for the shot despite Wall Street story, you know, you also feel like you can, you can do that. But not to say that, again, there are certain things that we were not allowed to do and we still had to, like, like rush and stay on budget and stay on time. I'm like, it doesn't mean like we can do anything we want. I did actually, that reminds me I had written down here. In what ways, like I remember watching the like special features or maybe it was the VFX breakdown for Mind Hunter, I want to say. And one thing that blew my mind, and I, you know, I'm not really in charge of most shoots because I'm the DP.

but anytime I'm like doing my own thing I use this now which is just split comps like if if the light needs to be closer just get a clean plate put the lighting closer and cut it out later who cares you know same thing with like holes yeah what were some of the like non

CGI VFX applications that you were able to lean on non CGI you know just stuff that like isn't you know oh we're going to put a big shark in there later you know stuff that, like you were saying, the VFX team was really helpful.

Like, were they helping you, you know, delete stands or whatever? Or is anything like that? Yeah. Yeah, for example, like, and that tells what that happens in most shows sometimes. I feel like, you know,

like the boom, personal sound people, they ask you, you know, if the camera's not going to move, if they can come in closer, you know, and then you shoot a play, and then it's easier for them to do that.

So we did that all the time. Something that we did that was kind of new to me, I haven't done before, it was like Marvel asked us to shoot a plate of every, every setup on every location. Just like, you know, the end, let's say the end, you know, we shoot the whole scene. And at the very last setup, get their actors out, get everybody out, and just replicate the camera movement. and that started taking time out time out of our own time to get since done

and then after extract marbles like no we need a plate of every setup so not just the last setup of the scene but every setup so like close up wide shot and and it's just like takes minutes out of out of the and out of your day but then they use that you know, maybe they

have to, you know, recut something and put an actor, but I don't know. I don't really know how they use that material, but that's something that we kind of had to like take into consideration schedule-wise and. Yeah, it's like, it's like visual room tone.

All right, 30 seconds for room-town. But it's like, you know, if you're doing a steady cam or diswaters or like a long steady cam, you have to, it's like a third take and that third take you know it adds up you know at the end of

the day so it becomes challenging I can't remember when I was talking I think it was Matthew I think it was the guy who shot no way home the Spider-Man movie I think but anyway whoever it was was telling me the same thing

that that Marvel had them doing not only a plate but I think he said a green screen like take as well where they'd like fly one in behind the main actor and they had to do that on like everything i could be editorialized but i remember him saying the same thing i do know that they don't let you work with colorists outside their their own their own house you know that checks out i think like lucky was an exception when they shot the pilot i think they were able to like bring someone else from outside but otherwise they're like no you have to work with our people

it too bad how so obviously like the actors in all these you know star wars and in marvel and like i feel like they signed some deal with disney where it's like you're ours for you know 20 years because you see them pop up in everyone else's stuff you it seemed you know how did you get this gig you know you feel like there's a lot of times they'll they'll pick the creative teams like how did you get involved because you hadn't done any marvel stuff before this right no that was my first time. And I did get, I went on an interview for a different Marvel show before. It didn't work out, but it was already kind of like a communication established there. And most of, well, it was interesting, like most of the department, I wouldn't say all of them, at least in a

photographer, preaching center, costume designer, maybe makeup and hair, that was all. That was all, our first time getting a Marvel project. So it was like, and then none of them were like, like hardcore, you know, comic science and they know everything on my other level. I feel like Marvel wanted to bring kind of like a fresh eye to the story. So it's really good to kind of like we were all almost like independent filmmakers or like just a bunch of filmmakers trying to shoot a good film, you know, trying to. to shoot a good story and it didn't feel like, oh, we're doing a superhero Marvel

thing and she looked this way, she should feel this way. It's like, no, it's like, this is the script we have, there's this type of character and we are going to be specific about what's in the page and not think about how things should resonate within that context, you know, brand context. Yeah. Well, and Daredevil. So yeah, well, I was just going to say Daredevil is one of the more grounded, like, besides the hearing and, you know, obviously he's very strong and shit. But like, it's, it's, it is kind of like he's just a guy. It's more Batman-like than, you know, yeah, night or whatever, Loki, obviously. Yeah, and it, yeah, it's like a Batman, Superman type of superhero, but it's, yes, as you were saying, I mean, the first, when they send the first, the pilot to me to read for, to go for the interview.

if you take a superhero part outside that's great that like what's on the page what was on the page I was like so inspired and so like I want to shoot this movie you know I want to be part of it like it's such a human and the characters are layered

and they're all struggling within their own their own selves and that is very you empathize with them like you Even first, he's like, you feel like he's so in pain, right? And he wants to change, but he can. Same with Matt.

He's like trying to change, right? Like, violent is there and trying to be a good person and he can't. So I think that script was like very exciting to me despite like, you know, the superhero aspect. I'm more interesting, like, those type of stories rather than, you know, the classic good versus evil. and so in that sense I feel like third level it's great great project

yeah I did I did want to know because I just I forgot I'm like list I got my little notes and then I down here at the bottom I was like why the shot at AT&T you know where the like

they killed the power and that woman goes AT&T sucks I was like why why did we call out AT&T like that I know right is that what she's

Yeah, AT&T sucks. Maybe that one made me change from AT&T. Yeah, I just, I thought it was so funny because, like, they could have, she could have said anything. She could have been like, oh, I hate this phone or something, but instead it's 18T sucks and we do not address it. Oh, wow. It's such a funny little bit. Realized until you're bringing it out. That's so funny.

It's like, it's like on someone, camera focuses on her. she says it and then she's gone and I'm like we literally took two seconds just to take a shot at 18T and we move on true larios how someone is that take that yeah yeah Verizon actually you know what's funny I just so I have Verizon I actually just realized I have the Disney bundle through Verizon so maybe there's a there's a marketing maybe um the other thing I noticed was you know you get like one F bomb per episode And in one of either one of your two episodes, there's a second one, but like someone like drops a glass or something. So the second one gets censored.

I thought that was also very clever and cute. Oh, really? As far as I'm aware, or like someone like closes a door or something, but like the second F bomb gets stepped on. Oh, wow. I didn't notice. And I remember the director asking these things. I think like they said, yeah, yeah, you're allowed to say, you know. the rating

allows that but I didn't realize that I didn't realize that on the I could have been imagining it but I had already I was just surprised there with someone even said fuck in a Disney project and so I wrote it down it's like oh my god and then it happened again but there was like a noise

at least I perceived it could have been here but I just thought that was funny yeah I mean the show has a very graphic scenes. Yeah, people are getting stabbed and shit. It's not for kids. We are running out of time, so I will let you go.

I have a note here that just says pixels for everyone. Oh, the phone. Everyone has a pixel. And I thought that was cool because I have a pixel. I was like, shout out. Oh, really? Yeah. You see, you notice all these things.

I had no idea. I'm such a dork. Like, there's no reason. And I will say, my brain if I'm watching something for these interviews I'm way more attentive

to stuff outside the story than I would be if I was just watching it for enjoyment you know and but unfortunately my brand of ADHD goes like oh look everyone had you know why though because everyone makes fun of me

I was just on the shoot the other day and everyone in production had an iPhone and they created a separate group chat that would just involve if I need to know something someone had to come find me and tell me because they didn't want the dreaded green text in there. I was like, fuck, I'll just go get an iPhone.

Someone buy me an iPhone, like production should buy me an iPhone if it bothers you that much. Definitely. Latest iPhone, there you go. Yeah. Well, thanks for talking to me, man. The show looks great and it was great chatting. No, thank you so much.

It was awesome. Thank you for audio. Frame and reference is an Albot production, produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so by going to frame and refpod.com and clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated.

And as always, thanks for listening. Thank you.