Frame & Reference Podcast - 187: "Daredevil: Born Again" Cinematographer Hillary Fyfe Spera

Episode Date: May 1, 2025

Today I'm joined by Hillary Fyfe Spera to talk about her work on Episodes 1-3 and 6-9 of Daredevil: Born Again!This is Part 2 of the Daredevil series, with Part 1 being a conversation with the DP of Episodes 4 & 5, Pedro Gomez Millan, last week.Enjoy!F&R Online ► https://www.frameandrefpod.comSupport F&R ► https://www.patreon.com/FrameAndRefPodWatch this Podcast ► https://www.YouTube.com/@FrameAndReferenceProduced by Kenny McMillanWebsite ► https://www.kennymcmillan.comInstagram ► https://www.instagram.com/kwmcmillan

Hello, welcome to this episode 187 of Frame and Reference. You're about to drop into a conversation between me, Kenny McMillan, and my guest, Hilary Five Sparra, DP of Daredevil Born Again. This is part two of the Daredevil series, with last week being with a pay, Pedro Gomez-Milan, the CODP. Enjoy it. I actually really miss that. I used to do that so much.

Like, mostly docks, yeah, actually all docked stuff or like dog style commercial stuff. And just being always on the road, like, yeah, it was twice a month, three times a month. And it was often like just short trips. And looking back, like, I remember doing my taxes and being like, oh, my God, like, I've just been all over the place, you know, in the last six months. But it's so much fun. It's my favorite thing to do. I really miss it. So that's great. I'm jealous. It is, it is very fun. And especially like, I'm pretty easy to please. So, you know, sometimes they'll put you in like, like when I went to Seattle. It was like a whatever like hotel is fine. But they had like one side room, like one room that had like

its own little kitchenette and stuff. And I was like, I'm in the big leagues now. I've landed. Yeah, exactly. Only there for two nights, but it's like, that's the other fun thing, too, is like, you know, I landed there. The second I hit the ground, I just looked up, are the crack in playing locally? Yep, drop my stuff up, stuff off at the hotel and went straight to the hockey game. You know, it's like, you get to do that everywhere. Did that New York went to a Yankees game on Dareteeter, Bobblehead night? That was not a good idea. That was. There was too many people. My friends were like, I was in Fort Lee, and my friends were like, You're going to have to get there, like, four hours early. Like, why? And they're like, bobblehead night.

And I was like, okay, I get there. They were right. Everyone who had a ticket was already in line. Oh, my God. And I just so happened to see a friend of mine at the front of the line. Oh, you got so lucky. Right in and, you know. Excuse me, I meant to be right here.

Yeah. Oh, this is my buddy. Oh, man. Well, let me know if you need any wrecks or anything in New York while you're here. Yeah. Lots of fun stuff. Yeah. I work with, have you ever been to death and co?

Oh, yeah. I actually used to know that guy, David or Dave. Oh, Dave's my friend. No way. Yeah. We should offline because this is a much longer story, but someone that I knew while we were in college. This is so random. Someone I knew, I think I went to school of Rochester together, actually, and they were roommates.

Asking if you know is John Gerwick because, or remembers John Gerwick. It's like G.R.W.E.C. who I grew up with in Vermont, actually. I grew up with John. And I think they were roommates. And I remember meeting Dave when he was like way, it was just before Depp & Company. It was before all that stuff. And it's like blown up.

Like good for him. You know, it's like it's huge. It's everywhere. I mean, the one in New York, I think is still there, right? And there's one other places. Is there one in Vegas, maybe in L.A.? There's, so I do all their video stuff now. We're doing like a whole education platform and stuff.

Um, so when I was in New York, I went and visited, uh, at least the New York location. No one was there. Um, like Dave and, and, uh, the rest of the guys. But, um, yeah, there's the New York one. There's one in Denver that's part of the Ramble hotel, like completely integrated, which is really cool. And then there's one here to play. That's so cool. I mean, he was like right on the front edge of like all that cocktail stuff. Like, he really nailed it. Um, yeah, I haven't been to the New York one in years, but I remember going there like really early days and being like, this is cool. Like he's doing something different. Um, like, he's doing something different. you know so anyway tell them congrats and hello well some of the guys listen to this podcast so they might just end up texting me and go like hey what the hell well john gerwick every year isn't going to be like that is the most random connection of all time yeah there you go yeah but that is the nice thing about traveling for because you end up meeting all these cool people and then when you're back in town like you know you end up building and especially with film you know same like you're saying like i landed new york i was like i need a gaffer you know i'll listen to you to like 15. It's awesome. Yeah. And New York's a small town. I mean, which is an awesome feeling.

You know, he's just constantly running into friends or friends of friends. And for me, it's been cool because I've been here since like 2003 and just been working the whole time, fortunate enough to, I mean, various types of things. But it's been cool to have that family that we've been able to like maintain throughout. So it's like we started out doing free music videos and now we're working on the show together, you know, a lot of us. So it's cool. It's, it's been nice to keep the family sort of for the most part intact so yeah did a job bring you to new york no i was in school in boston i went to i went to be you um and i was kind of coming to new york every weekend just like trying like craigslist ads trying to find work saying as to everything like it really

didn't matter as long as i was shooting and uh which i actually like i think is such a critical part of kind of my identity as a cinematat for like i really all of those opportunities like there's somewhere in there, you know, I mean, and it was all really cool learning stuff. But I just, yeah, I just was coming to New York because it was like the city, you know, I felt like Boston was a little small and I was like, why wouldn't I just be in New York doing this thing? And it's funny because now I go back to Boston and work. I'm like, Boston's great. There's great crew here too, you know? So, like we did Duxter up there and we did, I did another movie called The Parenting kind of back to back and we had the same crew for about almost two years. And it was just like, and it's awesome

to have those little families kind of wherever you go. Yeah, I was I was talking to your co-DP Pedro in a different interview. I think I was talking to him about this, but there was this like someone, I had heard some, I think it was on like the shitty rigs podcast or whatever, but they were basically like everyone should, this is kind of the opposite of what you're saying, which is like every production should shoot for a week and then take two weeks off and then figure out who maybe needs to be replaced. or what is it working in general

maybe not just people but like you know but when you have your group they should do it like what they should do it it's not just true I think like so many aspects

you'd be like oh we tried that it's not totally right try something else yeah you get second pre-production yeah exactly well didn't that happen on on Daredevil didn't you reshoot the first episode

we didn't reshoot it we just the first episode we came the second and we shot a pilot So with the new, when the new showrunner and new directors came on, they did the pilot. And then we added some content to like the middle episodes. I think two and three are mostly, they were originally one and two. And those are pretty solid with some additional stuff.

And then four, just Pedro's episode, I don't think it changed much. That was the Banckeist one. And then five, I think had some additional stuff and six as well. And then we kind of just went on our own after that. And it was all new material that we hadn't gotten to because we got shut down on the strike around episode six, which was my block. Yeah. So, yeah, so we, it was an interesting experiment of just like, you know, combining stuff, evolving that and maintaining. Like, we really not much, if any, was thrown away.

It was just sort of worked in, which was really cool. And thankfully, we still had a lot to go when the strike shows down. So we were able to maintain it. it's cool. Yeah. I mean, one nice thing about like commercials and music videos or whatever is you can kind of work with and deploy whatever new stuff is coming out. But like on a narrative, I've never shot narrative once. But I imagine that you have to stick with everything you started with. By getting shut down for like a year or whatever, then coming back and like slotting stuff into new episodes, did that provide like a technical challenge or were you able to actually like implement new workflows and stuff? Yeah, I mean, it's actually a really cool thing that we were able to see what was working and continue with that, which was mostly everything, and then have this opportunity to add a little bit of new stuff. Like, for example, in the pilot, we did the sensory, we called the sensory grande, which is like that aspect ratio change shot. That was new. That came in sort of phase two, which was great, because it was sort of like, what have we learned, what is the visual thesis and the visual language and like, how can we evolve it?

I mean, and that, I've never had that opportunity within a project in my career. So it was a really nice opportunity to be like, okay, let's bring something new to it. And then there, yeah, there wasn't really a lot of stuff where we were like, oh, that didn't work. It was kind of just like we either just got started doing it, like some of the smaller sensory beats where it's, we did in a slightly different way. We were just starting to really nail that. And then as we came back, you know, I had a lot of time to think about it. So we kind of were able to evolve it even further. And, you know, it went hand in hand with my operators too.

like they were such Tom Schneid's are A-op and Blake Johnson's are B-op and Andrew Jules are C-op and they're all like super creative they're all photographers they all shoot like still photography 35 and so they're all constantly you know on the trial for for ideas and it's been just a really collaborative built from the ground up kind of with the team so we were all texting each other during the strike like hey I saw this like what if we tried that you know kind of like so it was a really neat neat project in that way yeah the With the sensory thing, I did want to ask, and I was going to ask Pedro, and then he didn't shoot that episode. But there's like a lens flare dot right over Matt's ear. Is that comped in? Or did that end up happening? And you're like, oh, no, line it up. Line it up. That happened. That was real, 100% real. In fact, so much so that I was like, yeah, I was like, it's okay. Is it too on the nose? Like it just, it was like just a gift from the universe completely. And it was funny. I think it's because it was just like the way the elements were lining up. And it was just a flare that just went chook, and it was right on his ear.

And I was just like, Tom and I looked at each other. We were like, ooh, cool, you know? So, yeah, that was totally practical. And for the most part, except for the aspect ratio change, which is obviously close, all of them are in camera. So there wasn't really any manipulation. It was all analog. And that was something that was super important to me.

I'm a very analog person in general whenever I can be. And so it was just like, what can we do to make something feel really grounded with the sensory? like take a really like you know just something that fell kind of just you know in the dirt and I think that like you know since a lot of the other ones the smaller ones are just lens flares or just like some like just focus things or we had specific lenses that we worked with in order to do that that we knew this was like a case or sensory beat moment we pulled that out and it was all just getting it in cameras was so satisfying you know it's just kind of like okay great and yeah I can't I don't think VFX really enhanced much at all other than you know the the shrinking of the aspect ratio yeah the the thing that made me think it was practical was and i guess you the effects smart enough to figure this out but because of the zoom the dot gets smaller you know it's like honing in on his ear and i was like yeah that's either absolute just like lovely stuff happening on the day or it's the effect but that's that's cool that you're able to get that uh yeah i feel like it's a kind of thing where if like we had created it everyone would have been like

No, that's too literal. Like, you know what I mean? Like it wouldn't apply at all. So I think, yeah, it just kind of had to happen naturally. And then the convert, you know, the opposite thing happens is like, if they want to remove it, it's there. You know, it's almost like harder to get rid of it. So I'm really glad that all that stuff was embraced, you know. Dude, I wish that I had the technology, because this happens a lot on docs.

I'm sure this has happened to you. You get people wearing glasses. Yeah. And then you just see, you know, the six, or whatever and it's like I wish I was good enough in whatever after effects or whatever it is to like kill that because it's it's such a pain it's so hard I know and not wearing glasses constantly obviously and also the lenses of the suit which is like you know it's tricky as well and it's funny because you you want to kind of like make them ping so that it feels like there's

some life there but it's like you can't show off the light so it's like this really fine line And, you know, obviously moving quickly with TV and stunt sequences and all that kind of movement and action, you're constantly like chasing it, trying to find ways to mitigate it and be like, is this enough? Is this okay? Is this too much? You know? But yeah, the courtroom stuff was really tricky, actually, because we had these huge big sources. And if it were the window reflecting these glasses are always kind of fine. But it's like, yeah, when you see like the grid pattern of the light or something, you're like, well, this isn't really. It's not great. So it was a boy. Yeah, that's true, right? It's like if there's a certain size for which a reflection feels normal. But also I'm like, is it just, obviously if it's like a distracting, you know, it covers up their whole eye, then yeah, that's no good. But like I wonder if this is just like a nerdy DP thing or if people notice.

Because on the other hand, too, I watch stuff and it, and I'm excited when I can see reflections because then I can pick a part of the lighting. Totally. Totally. It's like, oh, I'm a nerd that's like, oh, I know exactly what that is, you know. But I think it's a blend. I think when people can't see eyes past it, like when it's just glasses and I can see eyes underneath the reflection, then it's like it's a little distracting.

But yeah, I think most viewers are probably really out hoped. I would hope they're pretty forgiving, just kind of used to it. But, you know, on the other hand, like, it's a type of reflection. Like I was like, we were talking about for all the driving work to have like to embrace reflections, you know, because it just feels like you're in the world as much as possible. We should be seeing the city go by and trees and all that kind of thing. And so one of our biggest references, like French connection, the driving sequence in that, which is, I mean, can't get any better as far as I'm concerned, that car chase. You know, you see the L train.

You see all of that reflecting in the windshield. And it's so storytelling. I mean, with that, which is like one shot, you know, exactly what's happening where it is. And I think, like, big thing for us was definitely reflections, good reflections, but, you know, using that as best we could. And also just interpreting the world around them as. much as possible. We're in New York. It's very much embracing the city and all its, you know, fun aspects and anomalies, super practical. And, you know, just seeing those reflections just puts you in place. It's like so often we're like killing it too much, you know, it's like,

then where are we? We're just like an avoid. Yeah. I did appreciate that you guys actually shot in New York because usually it's like, oh, no, we shot Vancouver for New York. And the one that Pedro told me that I subconsciously recognized but didn't even think. about it was the bank being the bank from Inside Man. Right. Yeah. I was like, that's so cool. It's crazy because we were looking at all these references of Inside Man and then we're like, oh my God, it's the same location. You know, like those, I can do like mosaics. Like it's just like, wow, those are amazing. It's cool. And I, yeah, we did we did a lot of just like New York for New York. Like I'm from Red Hook and

or I live in Red Hook. And which is if you're not familiar, People aren't familiar with it. It's like a very waterfront district. It's like cobblestone streets, warehouses. Kind of like back in the day, it was a really dangerous spot. But it's beautiful. It's right on the water. You can see a Statue of Liberty.

But it's pretty derelict. It's pretty out of the way, which is why I love it. Anything that's hard, I seem to be drawn to. And it, one of, a lot of our main locations, like when he, and even became like a story point where he's, like, rejuvenating the waterfront, Red Hook, Brooklyn. Like, that was actually in Red Hook. and I feel like number one thing that you would shoot anywhere else but actual

red hook, you know, it's like windy and freezing down here and so much more difficult. There's no transportation. It's like, why would you do it? But we did. And like the grain terminal that's behind Fisk and a lot of those shots and we shoot a lot of stuff like those, it's sort of like an abandoned like column building, it's super beautiful.

That was exactly what it was. And so just having like that inspiration of location is pretty unique. And, you I'm glad it was in Toronto or somewhere else. Right. Well, and a lot of those scenes, this just reminded me of it. The way that you guys handle, I'm always interested in how people handle exteriors,

especially on like a TV show or like you were saying, like you got to be pretty quick. How were you guys? Like what was kind of the MO there for? Because, you know, some people will go like, oh, yeah, thick ass silk or whatever, like just make it look. flat, like flat, but whatever. Some people go for highlights. Sometimes it's all neg. Like, what would your guys'

approach? Extra lights? I mean, yeah. I mean, I, the one thing that, one of the things that I was really into for this show, just what I saw from the very beginning when we were sort of conceiving it, was going harder sources, as much

as possible, really embracing that. I think just going bolder and not trying to whittle it down or soften it, you know, just to really embrace. like maybe the light's a little too hard, maybe the sun's a little too hard, and what does that feel like? And just have it feel kind of real, you know, and a little bit, especially in Fisk storyline, oppressive. You know, that was a big sort of thing for us was to make it feel like even the light is like kind of drilling down a little harder. And just use of color. Like it just,

you know, the original series is such a great job with that and did some really bold stuff. And I just, I feel the same way it's like as bold as we can go, you know, like what's the point? otherwise. And so I think that like as the series progressed, like we brought in color a lot more like the bold-eyed blue, which was one of my, 108 is one of my favorite episodes by far. I just think it's a really fun one and visually really pops. And, you know, so and it's very on the nose. It's like the bold red and the bold blue, but I just sort of feel like we've earned it. And this is like a real, like those are our comic book moments. And so just going harder with the light sources and interactive sources like headlights we always joke about we have a trash truck which is like the yellow

blinking white which they're in new york everywhere um you know uh tail lights like all that kind of stuff it just makes it feel as kind of like alive and texture as possible and not trying to control it you make it too pretty um which that said obviously we wanted to feel cinematic and pretty but you know just letting it letting it kind of like bounce around a little bit more and and um see what happens you know well and i saw that um Um, you had mentioned like a handful of 70s films were kind of the inspiration as well as I pulled this because I have it. The, uh, so, oh, yes, that's one of my favorite of his books. Yeah, that's a great one. It was incredible. You know who it was? It was, I think it was like episode three of this podcast. This is probably like episode 200. Um, and it was Tim Ives who, uh, he was like, oh, do you want to like, I asked him about like photo references and he was like, and I didn't, I maybe owned like, like,

like two photo books and he turned me on to like a hundred so I ended up buying you know the ones that I could afford and this was one of them and this is absolutely it's this uh the unseen by sol lighter for audio people but um yeah such a fantastic uh visual reference yeah he's he's he's one of my favorite photographers of all time and he's um friend of mine to give him shout out seems tanness leach she made an incredible documentary about him called the no great hurry and it's just uh really worth seeing. This process was interesting. You know, he's a street photographer, but it feels as if like these shots are sort of their narrative, you know, it almost feels like they're set up and just the use of texture and obstruction and like what you see and what you don't see is so curated. And it's just

immediately like a mood, you know, you know where you are. And I just, yeah, I was, it's like he's sometimes find these references just kind of like change everything after that. And, and his photography is certainly that for me. It's amazing. I mean, when we first started, We talked a lot about how we could incorporate that with the sensory. And it's funny because it's one of those things that's, I don't want to say it's better in still photography, but it's definitely achieved a lot easier with kind of a still frame than it is like a motion frame or movement. And I think that when we nail it, it's there, but like we can't sort of do it all the time. But definitely the spirit is there.

It's like it's in the DNA. So, yeah, he's a big favorite. There's actually a gallery in New York called the Howard Greenberg Gallery. If you have time, you should run up there because they have a lot of his work and his books. Oh, cool. Yeah. Greenberg. The second I started putting a notepad in front of me to like write things down, like there's big pauses now where I'm like, yeah, that's another thing I want to look up.

But, oh, that's what I was going to say, though. So the 70s movies, saw a lighter, et cetera. I noticed the lighting in this series is actually very theatrical. You know, like you were saying, a lot more use of hard light. But even like, this is Pedro's episode, but I remember like seeing, you know, you can kind of see like a spotlight in the frame. But it doesn't read. It's like oopsie. You know, it's just part of the sort of world.

Yeah, we really, I mean, we went with that like our guy for Charlie Grubbs, who's amazing. He's an artist completely. I mean, he's actually an artist. He's a painter. But he's just within lighting. He's so evocative and emotional. And a lot of these ideas were his and or at least like things we would bounce off each other. And I remember we'd turn to each other and be like, it's okay that we see the source and we're like, yeah, actually.

Like, let's embrace it. You know, we're not trying to hide it. Like, where does this light come from? And it's like the classic saying is where does the music come from? You know, it just is. And it's just there. And I think that, yeah, the more we sort of allowed ourselves to do that and just be okay with playing with that, it's just sort of opened up this whole other world where we're like we have these comic

book we're a grounded show we're trying to be really kind of human and show that side of it which is really what attracts me to the storytelling and then we get these comic books cinematic moments that I feel like we really earned you know we're like all of a sudden this lighting kind of becomes more theatrical or a little bit you know more in that realm and it's like all right let's go with it and then we just go right back to you know telling a really grounded story So it's fun. And I will say that the directors of, that did the new pilot and then who did eight and nine, Justin and Aaron, they also really embraced that too. And so it's sort of like symbiotic, like mutual kind of like all of us being like, okay, cool, let's do this, you know?

So, but it's funny because I like, I love watching and seeing that we have that in the pilot and then we go into the courtroom stuff in episode two, which is very naturalistic. And I think they're all in the same conversation, you know, and it's like, it's one of those things where. going into it and certainly in my past career I would be a little bit more worried doing and this one I was like just felt more confident to just go for it and see what happens and I think that you know Marvel too I've been really supportive of that creative exploration so it's been fun it's definitely taught me a lot in a great way and some stuff will carry forward so yeah I mean the the correct me if I'm wrong this is just what I sort of visually gathered but it does feel like sort of the more superhero, or maybe not that, but like the, the more comic booky, you know, talking with the Punisher in his rooms or whatever, you know, that is where daylight leans much more teal, you know, interior leans much more orange as opposed to, you know, CCT, you know, balancing color temperatures.

Was that like, was that that conscious choice or was it more just like the spaces? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it was the spaces. Each space does have its own characteristic and something that was super intentional. But we also had different characteristics for different daylights. Like Fisks' daylight is always really cool. It's a lot of it's like a lot harder shafts, very silhouetted, you know, especially as it progresses. And Matt's world is a lot warmer in general, a lot sort of more naturalistic. And then allows him to go more into the red realm for obvious reasons. and Fisk staying with the really oppressive white, you know? And so, and then even within, like you're saying, like kind of scenes and what's happening

in the scene, we lean into different sort of types of daylight or types of interior lighting, which I think is, it's just really fun. And it's, I don't know if 109's not out yet, but there's a, yeah, by the time this aired, I guess I can talk about the final episode. The episode will come out, I mean, this episode, our episode, will come out by the time. the season is over. I fucked up and didn't watch. I got all the screeners and I made it to like the sixth or seventh episode.

Okay. My time ran out. So I am not seeing the end either. But you can ruin it for me. It's fine. I don't want to ruin it. But it's for everyone else. It's not for me.

Well, that's very generous of you. No. Well, this isn't ruining anything. But in 109 there's a there's a blackout. And so we were able to play with what that looks like too, like what New York looks like in a blackout, is interesting. So yeah, there's a lot of different lighting characteristics within the show. And yeah, I know you haven't seen it, but I'm 108. I think it's a really fun example of that. So after

you see it, you got to let me know what you think because it's my personal thing. It's for sure. I will. You know, it's it's funny because like whenever I see interiors in any movie, I'm always you know, peeping where the lamps are. How many lamps? You know, how many trips to IKEA did this character make. I just saw my buddy, my buddy Larry shot death of a unicorn and I haven't talked to him about it yet. But the inside, have you seen it yet? No, I'm dying to. It looks so much fun. It's super fun. But there's the main, it all pretty much takes place in this one mansion sort of. And these people have bought every lamp in whatever town they're in. It's, it is insane. I just, Larry, it's every light in the city. They're, they're

They got string light. They are very, it's a, they can see. I do the opposite. I'm like, how many lamps can we get away with that are off? And if they're off, get rid of them. So it ends up just being like, these people have one lamp and everything is motivated from the one light. You know, it's like, I, yeah, I have, I have an aversion to too many tracticles in the

room because I'm just like, yeah, it's like it just becomes a little bit confusing to me visually, but I don't know. I will say unicorn not confusing, but you do as a DP notice there's like even in bookshelves, you know, there's little, but I did want to bring up for you guys because I was expecting lamps and then I was like, oh, that's right. He's fucking blind. Like he go into Matt's apartment. He doesn't even touch the wall.

I was like, oh, right, he doesn't have to, he doesn't need those. I was super stoked to sort of just remember that. Like I remember we were thinking about, you were just planning all that. We're like, oh, it's just like we leave the lights off. he would not turn the lights on, you know? And so it's like seeing him cook in the dark and stuff just makes me smile every single time I see it. I'm like, this is great.

And it's, and then we decided when, you know, when he has Heather over, when he has girlfriend over, of course he turns on a couple lights for it. But it's still like only a couple and they're kind of weird. And so I just think that that's like this little great little moment. I do love the idea that he placed lamps where in it, he like is internalizing where there should be light. But in reality, it's not like, doesn't help anyone. you know, behind a door, whatever.

Yeah, it's like on the far table. It's just like, okay. Yeah. How do you, how do you light dark? If there's no, if the, if the impetus is there's no lights, do you just go, you know, oh, there's a window and their moonlight's coming through that and just hit it with like the biggest soft source you can, or like, how did you conceptualize that? You mean for the blackout in particular, just in general, like, I suppose both. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Just, uh, his apartment. But then also, yeah, the, the black. out stuff. Yeah, it's funny. So I'm from the woods and from Vermont and it's crazy how bright moonlight is. Like it's actually looks like movie lighting. It's funny. But all of us are always like, no, that night lights too bright. You know, it's like we sort of have to. So perceivable dark is hard, you know, and I love it. It's sort of my favorite thing. It's like the most fun challenge.

And I think like creating a base that's like perceivable, but always having something brighter in the frame, be it like headlamp or interactive. lighting or backlight or, you know, something I think kind of allows your eye to just believe that it's light enough and it can still play pretty dark. And so for some of his apartment stuff that we did in the non-blackout, you know, we did a lot of like lighting from the city kind of through the windows, but leaving the base really low. And I think that that just, I mean, it allows you all these really fun silhouettes and stuff like that, but it also just kind of like lets you lean into the darkness, so to speak. And the blackout was fun because we discovered like

there'd be helicopters and there'd be something that's kind of like going by his windows and he lives on the top floor. So we did that. And it was just like this moment where your eyes like, oh, it's dark. Like it's almost like gone. And then a helicopter comes by. You're like, oh, look, there's, you know, there's the silhouette. And I think it's just like, especially for the scene, it works well because it's sort of like, you know, they're hiding. So it's, it's just like the ability to kind of see in the dark and what you don't see. And again, like my constant And inspo is 70s movies. And, you know, they do that so well.

Of course, they're shooting on film. It's harder to do with digital, which sees everything. And obviously, film, you can get true dark. And it's just, I think it's all about what you don't see, you know. Like, that's really always what's the scariest thing or, like, the way to really tell that story. And so leaving parts of the frame dark is everything, you know. And it's like the reverse challenge when you're shooting with this incredible camera we shoot with. I love dearly.

But it's like, it just sees, it does. It sees everything. So you have to really work it. Yeah. Well, I know the Alexa 35, you've got infinite highlights. Yeah. Is it also the same way? And is it just like DR craziness?

Like the shadows are also like, because I've seen people recover the sun from A35 footage. It's wild. It's an incredible. I mean, like, yeah, it blows us away all the time, blows me away. But yeah, there's a lot of shadow detail too. It's kind of like, you know, and it's kind of like beautiful roll-offs and that sort of just really like naturalistic sensibility that looks as filmic as possible. And, yeah, we, I mean, we sort of push it a little bit in our lot to kind of know where we can go and protect, but yet protect it. And then, you know, Marvel has an incredible colorist that does, I think, all of their shows at Matt Watson.

And he, an amazing collaborator. And it was really fun to sort of just get with him and be like, all right, cool. we know what we can do here so let's bring it down or you know kind of balance it in a way that feels good and and i think for me and the dii like i'm sure for a lot of people uh vignettes help because it really just like kind of brings the edges down but like sort of targets what you're meant to really see um and curates that a bit so um but i will say our dailies are pretty solid with what it really felt like and looked like so we were kind of lucky in that way again just capturing it in camera as much as possible.

Yeah. That's been a point of conversation before, but is like the way that film handles shadows, obviously like seven being a very popular example of how those, you can still see into them, but it like, you know, it gets chunked up,

it's gone. Yeah. How much are you allowed to do that? I shouldn't say allowed, but like obviously there's, I'm sure especially with like Disney Marvelous that are there's, there are some bumbers for you. But how much are you allowed to kind of like just delete shadow detail?

Or is it kind of like we need to see, we need to be seen? Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, I think like even if I wanted to totally lose it, it would be pretty hard to do. I think he almost probably had to knock the ISO way down to try and just limit the, you know, just sort of the top and bottom as much as you could. But I think that we, you know, we try and push it. think that for broadcasts and all types of different QC checks that they do, like, you know, they can obviously balance it still.

But we're allowed to go pretty far. I mean, I think. I think as long as it makes sense, you know, obviously there's a lot of want to see the actors doing amazing performances and stunt sequences and all those things. And so it's always a conversation. But I just feel like tonally and like stylistically, certain things should like, you know, just plays with like a huge backlight. he's really you know his he's all in silhouette and just because of the physicality of his body walking down the stairs you know exactly what he's doing you don't need to see every detail in space and and that was like those dailies look almost exactly like what the shot looks like and um you know in a perfect world i'd even bring it further down but you know it is i think it sells it and and so we are pretty supportive with that um and again it's all part of references and like just communicating and showing everyone and making sure that's

people are cool with it but uh yeah well don't don't you guys also have to do like 50 trims or something like that what do you mean like aren't aren't there like a crap ton of individual uh deliverables per episode yeah i believe that there are yeah there are definitely different different of everything and i think probably there's hdr sDR obviously um which they which they do and then i think there probably are a lot of different other requirements and you know different screening i'm sure different streaming requirements and maybe also for different regions, I'm not exactly sure. But yeah, I mean, obviously at Marvel, there's a lot of people, too, like to sort of like make sure that everyone is, it's happy.

And so it goes through a lot of revisions just within the DIY and the edit, which I'm actually glad for it because it's nice to know, like, everyone collectively is okay with it, you know, I mean, it takes a minute, but it's like, it's kind of nice to just be like by the time it gets out there, people are, have signed off. So I think when we started, which was 2022, you know, I pitched them the A35. Like they had not done a show on the Alexa 35 before. So that was new. Definitely have to like shoot tests, show everybody.

This is what we're looking at. This is kind of, but no, I mean, there was a lot that we were given and then we modified it. But it wasn't like have to use a slut. It was just like, here's a starting place. And then we definitely tweaked it. And Matt was great with all of that. And it came from looking at photo references, it came from looking at all of that type of 70s stuff too.

And so that was all really baked in from the beginning. But yeah, they hadn't used the Alexa. And it's funny because starting this next season, we are on the same camera again. And we had thought about the Venice for a minute, just because we have a lot of low light stuff. And we did a bunch of comprehensive tests. And Marvel, I think they've shot some movies on the Venice, too,

but they haven't done a series on it in total yet. And so it was like the same sort of thing. again a couple years later and we ended up staying with the Alexa it just felt like a much it just felt like the right camera for the show despite the Venice being incredible especially with low light

I mean it's like truly remarkable it just felt like the Alexa was more in our in our veins so we ended up staying with it but that testing stuff is kind of the best like I love it I love sort of just like getting into like the really nerdy super granule like looking at it

and just like zoomed in on all of the grain on the camera and the image and just being like, wow, okay, that's what we're seeing. So how do you run camera tests then? Do you do the classic like, we're going to put some twinkle lights back there in a neon sign and get two actors of different skin tones? Are you a little more like, give me the thing I'm going to go run outside and pick off some shots? Yeah, a little of both. We've done a bunch of lens tests at Panavision. I'm a huge lens tester, kind of driving everybody crazy. My camera department always makes fun of me because, like, our lens package is huge. And it's like, you know, we might need it. And we do. We end up using a little bit of everything. So it's

justified. But yeah, we do. I need to see it in the world. I need to just like, you know, go outside and take a look at how it reacts in the natural environment. But we do do a lot of like, yeah, Panama has a setup with the twinkle lights and sort of like, you know, tend to keep it pretty contrasty. But like, you know, we're looking at a person sitting in a chair, which is always like the best. It's, you know, the most perfect environment. And then you've got to go and like mess it up and see what it really does. But yeah, I think the most useful lens tests are definitely the ones that are just out in the world or, you know, build a little setup on stage and go shoot it in a way that you think you might try and replicate. But yeah, I have always

thought about, I need to like archive all these lunch sets I've done over the years because there's just so many. Have you, have you used Marcus Porter's tool? The sine lens flare. Have you not heard of this? No. Oh, dude, it's rad. So it's, uh, I think it's called this sound. Yeah, there you go.

It's the, I think it's called the sinny lens flare database. Um, and basically he's got just oodles of lenses and he's got a light, same light. I think he said it's a 2K on a motion control arm. And he runs it through with on black, you know, um, and then does it at various aperture sizes and that way you can see a how everything flares but especially when you start to stop down you can see all the elements you know within the just by nature of how flares work

but obviously it's really helpful for if you're like considering a lens you're like we need no veiling glare and then you put up you know whatever k35s and you're like never mind you know but yeah he's constantly adding to that that resource it's it's way nerderier than shot deck it's shot deck for dorks that's the best tagline that's what the tagline should be uh wow i need to get on that right away that's like my absolute dream i think i'll just go down that rabbit hole for the rest of the day probably

that's awesome it's a it's a really good reason and he started comping them into um images so you get like a better idea of what it looks like with like sun you know like what so um but yeah i'm i'm I'm always interested in how people run tests because I very rarely get that opportunity. It's usually just like, I'll either get hired because I have a camera or I'm told what camera I'm using. And that it's like, you know, Lawa gave me some anamorphic. So I shot this sports documentary on those because they wanted to shoot anamorphic. But had I not had them, we would have shot on, I don't know, maybe my night course. It's very much what's available.

So I'm very familiar with only that. So I'm always trying to pick people's brains like, how do I, how should I be? What should I be paying attention to? Because I don't even know what to look for anymore. I'm like that, it all looks cool. I don't know. Yeah, I look at, I mean, I look at Slare is definitely. That's like probably the number.

I mean, I love them. I love embracing them. I think, you know, they're all over the show, obviously. Also, like just softness, like a really sharp lens is not really my thing. I mean, I'm definitely, I've wean way more vintage and all the kind of like, you know, fucked upness of a vintage lens is really good for me. And just like the aberrations and anomalies, like I think, you know, in Panavision, they detuned all of our lenses, like really specifically. We had a lot of conversations.

They're very patient. We didn't have Dan because we were in New York. So we had Jeff, who's amazing, he's Dan's disciple and very patient. And, you know, we would talk about, like, you know, the secrets in the sauce with them. We're not exactly sure what each thing does. And they definitely keep that very underlocking key for good reason. But, you know, we'd be like, yeah, we'd like more veiling here or, like, softer in the shadows and, you know, the highlights to bloom a little bit. Because it's like, you know, we use diffusion very light, but a lot of, like, we shoot on the G series that are just sort of doing that out of the box.

Like just, I can put a lens up and be like, that's it. I need nothing, which is pretty unique for me, at least, because I'm definitely a filtration and lens person in my past. So that's a really fun process. Like just the detuning of it all is such a, I mean, talk about a nerd warm hole. That's like I could be doing. I mean, I could still be doing that. If someone was cool with me just doing that 24-7, and I'd be really happy. So, yeah.

This, that you just reminded me of two things. One, I was talking to Marcus about he shot September 5. And he said that he pulled apart a lens of his to like physically go in and like put fingerprints on the inner elements and like detuned it himself. And then he couldn't put it back together. So he had to take it to I think he took it to Dan and he was like Uh

Fix And they're like all right He said it took him like five minutes He brings it back out and he's like okay What I sure You know Oh man God he's a

Yeah He's an absolute wizard I would love that talk to him But he's had his hand on everything And my friend Alex Nelson From Zero Optic keeps making lenses for people That I never find out Until the movie's been out

for like a year. And then he's like, by the way, I made, you know, I made it for this. Alex is, Alex is so cool. I mean, yeah, and he's, he's done amazing stuff. Yeah, I think we met, men the past. I honestly, it was like the ASC award or something. And I felt like I was just like fan, like sand grilling. I was like, oh, wow, you're Alex.

Okay, cool. You know, it's like, because it's, yeah, he's got an amazing thing on over there. Yeah. I need him to rehouse my nightcores, but he won't give me a discount because it's so expensive. So expensive. Yeah. I actually had back in the day, which I loved them and would love to like rehouse them yet again into like sinny lenses. But I like declipped some contacts yeshika lenses, some still photo lenses that are they're stunning. I mean, it's just so funny. I like this popped into my head last night for some reason. So unfortunately now I'm telling you and I'm sorry. But you remember like the lettuce adapter like back? Oh, we have talked about that. had a lot that thing and and it was uh yeah lettuce 35 and our litus or whatever and red yeah garbage i mean they weren't garbage but like you'd lose six stops and it's so funny because i never knew if his lettuce or litus either i was i would just go lettuce litus that adapter

but uh yeah and it was just like this nervously spinning piece of glass on a rubber band that i used to carry us or over bands because they would snap sometimes and it's like you know if you stopped down enough you'd sort of see the spinning thing and like the sky but they worked they were great i shot many a doc very uncomfortable you had to like hold it way out from your body you know and it's just like it was like this dinosaur stigosaurus thing but they're beautiful and those lenses it was like you know they just were soft and weird and like you know you're like pulling focus on a still photo lens as you well now it's like it's just impossible but like kind of weren't it it was worth it for the pain because they're really really nice yeah on my uh on my on my night course

there's actually on the older ones there's a non-trivial amount of slop in the in the focus ring so whenever I like it's an I if I know I'm going to be pulling focus I'll kind of like go until I can feel it grab and then do it but if it's like oh no you see the whole image shift because it like moves the like when it finally clicks it'll move everything and it's like the worst version of focus breathing it's just like I got a Fixed that. But you know, the nice thing about the lettuce adapter was the red rock one didn't have the spinning glass. It was just it was stopped. So if you did, I mean, even if it was open, you would see that it was like grain that didn't move. Oh, interesting. Yeah, like when you don't turn on the lettuce. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's so funny. Yeah. It's I totally forgot that you like turn it on and then it does its thing. It's so weird. I also remember shooting like many a music video. And you zoom all the way out and you see, like, the frame in the frame. And it's like, that was cool for about 10 seconds. And then, yeah. But, yeah. Kids these days don't know how easy they have had it. They really, they really don't.

It's not a joke. Yeah, we, I shot this, um, super fun documentary a million years ago called American Juggalo, which is about like the Juggalo's, the Gathering the Juggalo's. And, uh, yeah, it's a blast. It's, I think it's like 20 minutes. or 12 minutes. Anyway, it's a short doc. But I remember bringing out that tool in the field of that thing. And it was just like praying that it didn't break. And, you know, it's like the lens and the adapter and the camera and just like running around a bunch of jugglers. It was a blast.

I've heard those people are very eccentric, but very nice. They are wonderful. And both of those things. Yeah, we had a blast and found that they were definitely eccentric and kind of the best. You know, they always say, family and you're like it's kind of culty but also kind of wonderful you know it's like great it's a cult you're allowed to leave yes yeah very two people yeah if you if you are ever bored you should check it out it's a really fun movie so oh for sure yeah yeah yeah oh i i remember the other thing i was gonna say because we're talking about uh lenses and stuff um but it was ellen curris who who basically got me to stop using filtration not that that was her intent

But I asked, you know, I don't know if you took part in this, but certainly from like 2010 to like 2018, everyone was using a black promist just constantly. And I had mentioned that I was like, do you use like a promist or whatever? She goes, oh, when that came out, no. It's too fuzzy. Doesn't have any sensibilities. It's like not using a grid. Like, what, it's fuzzy. That's stupid.

I'm exaggerating what she said. But. And I was like, oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I wouldn't. I wouldn't do those either back in the drawer. Yeah. You're right out of my bed. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It's true. There was like, there's trends of filtration, I think. Yeah. It's funny.

I was recently researching some older like Harrison filtration, not Harrison, Mitchell filtration and something else. And it's like, yeah, it's just soft. I mean, that's really just what it was.

It was just like completely soft. I mean, women looked beautiful. But I was like, what is actually in there? And it's funny to look back and see how it progressed. And using nets and stockings, obviously, it was a whole thing. And, yeah, David Mullen does like a graze breakdown.

So good. Yeah, I've been really, because of his, like, Instagram posts, I've been like, do I need to find a Kodak picture disc? Because I'm very much enjoying that, like, especially when he's compared it to all the other things that are vaguely similar. I'm like, that one actually, or portrait disc, whatever it's called, that one actually looks interesting. as opposed to the other ones that all kind of look the same. I'm just like blown away by his encyclopedic knowledge on, on this stuff. It's, it's amazing.

Like, he's such an incredible resource. And it's just, yeah, it's like every time I read something, I'm like, oh, yeah, that just makes all the sense, you know. He was incredibly valuable when I was going up through college just because you would reese, you'd Google something. And there he is in the cinematography forums, just answering it. But just giving us away for free, you know? Totally. I know.

It's wild. And he's exactly right. Like, I mean, a lot of the stuff that I've read, I've been like, I've discovered the exact same thing. I'm like, it's so cool that he's able to do that and willing to do that, you know? Yeah. He's a really, also an incredible DP, crazy talented. Yeah.

Yeah, Maisel is one of those ones that I think doesn't get enough attention for just how excellent it is. Because I think, I think we as a culture tend to. look at, and I'm the same way, you know, sci-fi, anything, you know, where we talk about alien or severance or The Matrix, because it's like more, you know, it's easier to point out because it's more and then Maisel is so, um, not restrained, but, but it is, it's kind of so perfect in its execution that it's, you don't even talk about it. Because what do you say? Oh, look at that. That's perfect. All right. Totally. Yeah. I know. And those, some of those, the camera movement is like,

like, some of those big shots. they do i mean they're just like they're such a feast it's like watching that it's just like oh man this is so much fun and those behind the scenes like i just that to me is like i don't know the equivalent like music but it's just so fun satisfying to watch those be pulled off you know and knowing that they're all in camera and analog and like you know they've built the sets around the crane move with the handoff and it's just super super fun yeah oh that oh that does actually remind me of something i was going to ask about with daredevil uh obviously a lot of cool action sequences. Weirdly enough, and I love this about it, a lot more like legal drama

than I expected, which is sick, but obviously I love an action sequence. I was wondering if you could talk me through the sort of mechanics of obviously there's a lot of long takes, but also like one thing that I'm always interested in is how does VFX help as opposed to add? So one thing that I started doing even in like documentaries, if I'm editing, is like I need a stand to be closer, whatever, I'll delete it later. I'll just get a clean plate, you know? No one, no one needs to know. But yeah, if you could, if you had any like kind of tips, I suppose, on shooting sick

action sequences, especially with like the knife throwing and stuff or they got to react to nothing and like, how do you frame for stuff that's not going to be there, you know, all that kind of stuff? Yeah, it's hard. I mean, it's definitely, it's a challenge. Like, it's a fun challenge that I feel like I hadn't done, you know, I've done some action stuff before, definitely some VFX stuff, but like in the way that the camera moves with the action in the show is so athletic and it's such a, those sequences, it's like the original

show did such a great job. I mean, it's like, okay, the bar is head, you know, I'm not trying to improve upon it, but definitely need to live up to it. And your stunt coordinator, Phil Silvera, is amazing too. And he also, when he does his previs, he operates a camera. So he's a total understanding of camera language. So it's all built in. And it's like, you know, the speed of the whip pan and like the reveals and everything it's like we our operators are incredible and they it's really like you feel it in the moment but I feel like we're able to at least be like okay did that work let's do it again you know and luckily we have such incredible stunt performers as well and just our actors like Charlie's amazing with stunts too and people are just like we just we kind of try and

perfect it you know we try and get it right and I think like sometimes that's on the first take and sometimes it takes a couple but um our VFX team is is super solid. They're really collaborative. I mean, they're essentially part of the camera department, and they're there on the onset the entire time. They're there on scouts. You know, they're in all the meetings. And so it really is built from the ground up. And so we know the plates we need. We know sort of the pan speed. We know, like, we talk about all of that ahead of time. And so it just makes it more successful totally on the day. And just kind of like takes away a little bit of the anxiety of doing it because the days are full, you know, we're still on a TV schedule.

we're shooting like you know a lot of the sun sequences are not even a full day so it's like we're really up against it um but uh yeah in the courtroom scenes for example too we're shooting on a lot of wide lenses and just like you're talking about it's like you know do you rely on them to paint stuff out i mean i try and get all of it as clean as possible but definitely there's moments where you're like i just have to put the light there and i just needs to be there and can help me out and they've been really amazing about that um funny story about the courtroom scene. It was our first, the big courtroom scene in episode two and three,

it was our first week of shooting. And it was on location in Yonkers at a, in a courtroom that was five floors up. It was on this hill. Oh, good. Five floors up. Yeah. I was like, okay, great. It's like there's, you know, there's one way to do this.

And it's just a bunch of big lifts from outside of big lights. We get there, I think we're halfway through day one. And like, we get weather and it's like not just wind, but snow. And like, seriously, okay, cool, great. So all the lifts have to be grounded. So it's like we've established this like big, broad daylight, you know, like coming in really hard light and aggressively. And then it's like, how are you going to do this from inside the room now?

And I'm like, yeah, okay, this is an interesting challenge. And so we just had to be really strategic about the angles that we saw and hopefully come back the next day. And like we sort of never got a full day with the lifts all the way up. We need to always like work around that. But now when I watch it, I'm sort of like, I don't know how this all cuts together. It's kind of amazing. And it was a total jigsaw puzzle of like what angles we could see the windows and what angles we could kind of shoot away and replicate from inside the room.

So sort of an aside from VFX, but it reminded me of just like, you know, the challenges of like working on location and thinking on your feet. Yeah. Well, and now in Resolve, you can do a lot. I don't know if Matt over there is using baselight or resolve or whatever, but like there's a literal relight tool where you've been. put you you drop it in I mean it's not like perfect but especially like I had an interview where I didn't give the guy enough level it just looked really flat and I just dropped the relight tool in there you know get a key on him and then just raise the level and it's like all the shadows are correct and everything because it takes like a depth yeah I don't know it's but you can get a lot

away with a lot when you have light change on you or whatever now yeah it's it's it's wild it's also a little scary I mean it's like such a great tool you've got to like you know adopt it, but it's like, oh my gosh, that's like, are our jobs? What are our jobs in the future? Yeah. Well, there's, see, I, I feel like that whole conversation certainly is like, I think in any conversation about any emerging technology, your brain just goes to where it could end and or where it should end. And I think with a lot of these things, besides like generative AI, which is certainly sketchy you know tools like that I think there's not like a lot of headroom for them because at a certain point you are just doing generative you know it's not I think those are

going to remain as tools I don't I don't know if there's a lot of space for them to like start taking DP jobs unless you are just generating stuff which is but also that stuff takes so much work I've seen people you know they'll put out these examples and then it's the same thing you know they release top gun and they're like there's no VFX and then later they're like there was actually 7,000 shots of you. It's the same thing with the generative AI where it's like, look at what it can do. And it was like we had to try that 400,000 times before it gave us the result, you know. Yeah, totally.

And like what power is all that? It's like a lot. It's a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right.

I think it's a ways off. And maybe it's always just a tool. But it's a cool tool. I mean, it's really helpful, especially for references and all the pre-vis stuff. I mean, it's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. Yeah, that was actually another thing about when you're saying, like, getting plates and stuff, because Pedro mentioned this, and I had heard a few other marble people say that, like, they have you get, like, plates for everything, right? Every single shot needs a plate. Yep, that's true. We sort of have joked that that's our band name now is clean plates, because every time we get a shot, we're like, all right, clean plates. Yeah, we do. We do it on almost every setup if we don't change a lens, you know? Like, so. And it's good. And it's helped us, actually. actually, in a couple scenes. They've used it just for background stuff to try and match, you know, some stuff. So, yeah, we do it. I mean, it's hard.

I mean, you've got a scene like a courtroom with a lot of extras. You've got to usher out and back in. So it's hard on the AD department. It's definitely like a stress point for them. But we've gotten super efficient with it, especially the VFX team. They just kind of come in really quick. They do balls and charts, which is our secondary band name. And then we're in and out.

So, yeah. The opener. Yeah. Balls and charts opening for clean plates. But the thing I'm fascinated by is like, how do you, obviously the first few times are probably going to suck ass, but how do you perfect like a steady cam plate? Like if you're on rails, it's probably a little easier. You know, you got a great dolly grip.

They'll probably, they can probably nail it. But like on it, especially in a one or fight scene on a steady cam or handheld, God forbid, like how do you, do you just do your best? you just do your best yeah Tom our study up is like yeah he's amazing he's like just remembers and he's kind of like I love him he kind of like talks to himself as he's down he's like I'm going over here and then I'm doing this and it's like it's always so confusing standing at the monitor because you're just like what am I what am I looking at you know it's but yeah he tries his best and same for handout we kind of but now we're into the system where we just sort of tile so

we just give them like general a different focal length or different um focus lengths and um try and just kind of give them that. And I think it's, I think it's pretty successful. I mean, it's really, I think, just a little bit, you know, just they're trying to just like a mass of a bunch of material in case, just in case. So, which I really got. Yeah. Yeah. The one trick I think I've seen, because I'm sure you, I don't know if you've actually done this, but where people will put like a GoPro on top of the lens. Oh, yeah. Cool. Have you ever done that? I never have. No. So I don't know what that's for. I assume it's for BFX.

But I have a sneaking suspicion, and I want to test this. I just haven't had time, is like, especially if you're on a long lens and you try to use digital stabilization, it'll get real wobbly because it doesn't know what to grab, right? Yeah. And I'm not a BFX expert, so I don't know how to like manually do that or whatever. But I bet if you put a GoPro kind of over the lens with that wide field, you track that and apply it to the. apply it to the long line. If it's hard mounted, right, it should be the same

XYZ, I think. Yeah. I don't think the distortion would matter. And I want to test that. That's really interesting. I think that, yeah, that would be true. I think there's no reason why it wouldn't be.

Because the only thing about the GoPro that I would imagine might be kind of tricky is just the distortion of the wide lens because it is so wide and it kind of bends a bit. But that's what I'm thinking is because it can see like it's kind of the same idea of the ball right it'll just grab everything and all it's it's just doing but I guess if it's too wide you could just punch in and get the track that's true because then you could flatten it out yeah it's true we're also anamorphic and

I wonder if you know just because we've got which I know is extra hard for the effects in so many ways and they're very cool that and very patient but um yeah we um our lenses have a lot of like funk to them as well. So I think us just shooting the plates themselves probably the most useful. We also shoot flare plates too because I'm a big fan of like, yeah, it's like... You got to send those to Marcus. Yes, I should. I'd be like, here you go.

I just feel like, you know, if they're ever going to add any kind of BFX flair, it would be great to just get it from our lenses. And so they've been really cool about getting a library of our flair. So we should share them. We should absolutely do trade-marned Daredevil flares. Yeah. Oh,

yeah. If you ever need some extra cash, just sell those. I was also going to say whatever the base like it, you know, God forbid, Disney starts like tanking and, you know, well, I was going to say stocks. But anyway, they could just sell the like base Marvel lutt, whatever they gave you. They're like, this is it. Hope you're shooting Alexa. Yeah. Yeah. Different environments. Here you go. Yeah. Were the, were the, um, flare plates just like on black or were they on the set? On black. Yeah. Just against like a, a, solid background, yeah, and different, all the lenses. And we introduced some of our long, like, 70 zooms during the pilot, too. And so we shot a lot of the Zoom flares as well, which are,

as you can imagine, totally different and doing the little spot. So, yeah, they have all that. That's good. You know, I know you did like the flight attendant, which was a bigger show. And that, that Dexter movie, too, huh? Yeah, that's actually. It was a series. It was. The series, yeah, it was a 10-part series, yeah. But those are obviously shows that I would consider about the same size, but obviously the scope of Daredevil is a lot bigger. I was wondering what are some things that you learned going on to one of these kind of, I feel like all of us kind of look at Marvel as like the most complex projects, usually, you know, if you just look at the landscape of film and television. Yeah, like what sort of things did you learn from that experience that were new, even though you'd done these larger projects? Yeah, that's a great question.

I mean, I think like the first thing that comes to mind has less to do with, like, creative and more to do just with, like, management. And I think that both in discussing with crew, like sort of taking a creative idea and like communicating it to crew, but also taking that creative idea and communicating it to director. and, you know, and sort of the production team and being really clear about what the idea is, just finding ways to sort of like take the stuff that's rattling around in our brains and, like, being able to communicate it clearly was something that I felt like I really had to refine.

And I think on certainly working on movies, it's a little easier because the team's smaller and it's sort of more direct. And I think, you know, Marvel's probably like the biggest version of that. There's the most people to sort of communicate this idea to. So just being really clear about what a, is and how to pull it off. And even if there's parts that you're still trying to explore, just being like, these are the parts I'm trying to explore. And just finding ways to communicate

that was something I personally felt I really had to hone. And it couldn't just rely on like, hey, I'll show you later. You know, it's like I really have to kind of know what that is. And the same goes for the crew. You know, it's like that collaboration is just my absolute favorite part of this whole thing. You know, it's just like I get so much from it. I sort of, I love throwing an idea out there and having someone bounce back and making it 10 times better. and being open to that and sort of seeing where it goes and how it evolves. And so, you know, just being able to sort of say to the team that the crew, like, this is the thought and this is where this is coming from and story-based idea and visual thesis-based

idea and like, tell me how we can get better. And that because we move quickly and because there's just a lot of things to sort of consider logistically creative, technical, it's like it has to be pretty sort of succinct. And then the idea can come back in kind of a also like, you know, succinct way and then it can kind of get there faster. And I think like, you know, it's just related to time and efficiency as much as possible. Yeah. Well, and something that I've learned with management, I, when I started actually working on sets and actually being the department ahead and not just, you know, me and a buddy or whatever, you know, there's plenty of like legitimate like business books that actually help. And one of those things is like that I've learned as really helpful is like part of good management is giving people enough room to end agency to make decisions without constantly having to check with everyone.

You know, middle management is what ruins everything. But, you know, as you were saying, there's a lot of hands that are a lot of heads that are in play, whatever, a lot of people. Where are you given that agency in a way that you weren't experienced? Or were you, did you have any expectations going into something like that? Yeah, I definitely was curious about how, you know, and I have to say like Marvel really surprised me working with Marvel and the team just from the jump. It was like a lot of trust. It was like, okay, this is the creative idea. We trust that.

Let's explore it. Like show us examples and then let's discuss it. And it was like that like in the past, I felt like I'd had to fight harder or there was like more. knows before it was a yes or maybe it was never a yes and with marvel it seemed like it was like a yeah okay cool like let's let's check it out and then it eventually became a yes or it was a no for a very right reason but at least we had explored it and so it just felt like there was a lot more ability to communicate and find like the really right thing and then once that was established it was really trusted you know and it was able to be like hey this is the visual thesis

we talked about let's make sure we're protecting it moving forward and you know it's like when Pedro came on too it was like those were the discussions like informing him of like this is what we've been talking about and let's make sure this feels like one solid cohesive piece and one movie and like what can we do and then you know just being able to have that dialogue and just always evolving it and you know there's there's ways to kind of add to it it's not like it was rigid it was like this is a ever moving thing and I totally agree with you it's like I love being like hey here's a thought and like let it get rather than be like you know you've got to strangle it to death and it has to stay in this one way and it's it's the same goes for prep it's like let's think

of every idea there's no wrong answers and then eventually we'll like shape it into a thing if we get on set and the sun's setting over there and it looks amazing and we said we're going to shoot over here like let's do that you know and just having that confidence of really knowing it backwards and forwards and like knowing what's in the DNA and I think Marvel was was super supportive of that you They really did trust that, yeah, I kind of felt like I was able to be this like visual ambassador for like what, you know, and protect that and move forward through it. And the same goes in the season two, which is a big reason why I was excited to come back. You know, I'd never done a season two of something kind of intentionally because I always

wanted to kind of do a new thing and like keep going and new adventures and new horizons. But I was super excited to be like, we got somewhere and there's more places to go and let's get there. You know, I kind of feel like I'm not done with telling the story visually. So, um, yeah, it's pretty cool. Yeah. So you're not having to send an email in the middle of the set like, hey, are we allowed to do this? Yeah, right. Can you tell me yes here? Yeah. Is this? I need to know. Well, uh, I've kept you a little over. So I'll, I'll end with this question. But, uh, one of my favorite things that kind of like jogged made cinematography easier for me was, I think it was in like the director's commentary for the game, I think, where David Fincher was talking about, like, you can do anything. The audience knows you can do anything. It's film. So what don't you do is what, or what you don't do is what informs the look. You know, this is not a handheld film, for instance. So on Daredevil, what, what don't you do? Wow, that's a great question.

I just thought of something that I don't know if it's we kind of just don't like we kind of just don't what's out we push each other you know we kind of just don't take the safe route we try and always find you know the challenging one like it's kind of like the one where we're like is this is a little bit too much and then we go there you know so but yeah we don't do a lot of softness in terms of lighting that's for sure um we've had to a lot of different type of camera language and movement so there's not sort of like somebody to stay away from there but yeah I think we just try not to stay safe but we say very safe on set

just in the videos yeah yeah yeah no you well that bucks my job I was going to say you lock the AD in a closet and they'd be like that's going to take a while but do it but the AD's also a person so they still have a walkie yeah yes they're allowed to have a walkie

Yeah, no, very, very safe set. I feel very proud of that. But in the visuals, take some risk. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for spending the time with me. I absolutely loved that conversation. I will definitely hit you up whenever the hell I'm in New York. I think it's in June.

Oh, cool. Yeah, please do. No, that would be great. Frame and Reference is an Albot production, produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so by going to Frame and Ref Pod. and clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated, and as always, thanks for listening.