Frame & Reference Podcast - 191: "Silo" S2 Cinematographers Ed Moore, BSC & Kate Reid, BSC

Episode Date: May 29, 2025

Today I'm joined by returning guest Ed Moore, BSC and his compatriot Kate Reid, BSC to talk about their work on the second season of Silo! This is "Part 1" of our Silo coverage, as we've double-dropped this week and have a second episode with Baz Irvine, BSC ISC and Ollie Downey, BSC (the second pair of DPs on the show) which is dropping concurrently with this one!Enjoy!► ⁠F&R Online ⁠► ⁠Support F&R⁠► ⁠Watch on YouTube⁠ Produced by Kenny McMillan► ⁠Website⁠ ► ⁠Instagram⁠

Hello, and welcome to this episode 191 of Frame and Reference. You're about to drop into a conversation between me, Kenny McMillan, and my guests, Ed Moore and Kate Reed, both in the BSC, DP of the second season of Silo. And this is actually part one of the Silo series. We've got the other two DPs, Baz and Ollie, in a follow-up episode released at this same time. So go ahead and when you're done with this, if you love the silo story, keep on listening for the other side. So that's that. Let's get you to it. I always hope people don't like.

I think we talked about, I can't actually remember what the, was it meant to be about hijack? But I think we just talked about Red Dwar for, no, Dr. Who? Dr. Who? Okay, yeah. Yeah. Have you shot a Doctor Who? I haven't. Yeah, I haven't. There's a right to press which I missed. Did you do one, Ed? Did I? I've done a few Doctor Who's. Yeah.

Yeah, they were good times. And yeah, Kenny's a Hoovian. So, yeah, we got into that. Who did I just talk to? This month has just been like a lot of fun interviews, but just spoke to someone who shot like 12 episodes. Oh, wow. That's exciting.

Oh, yeah, Stefan Pearson. Oh, yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, in fact, when, um, going to go through various, that was in the, I think in the, in the Stephen Moffat phase, they, they were doing loads of behind the scene stuff and there was like they, they had a whole thing where they followed different members of crew and they followed Stefan and it was one of the first times I'd ever seen like a real DOP, like I was like taking notes frantically. he talked to like what the how's he thinking this out um yeah good times yeah he he had said that uh he he had watched like the original series and was just so like not the original original but like the reboot and he was just so mad he was like i can make this look better please somebody you know like five years later like you want to come up and he's like fuck yes you know

any way no it's good time uh so kate i'll i'll start with you because i that we have not met. But how did you get involved with Silo? How did you get the call up? Well, I mean, basically, Ed was on the block and he had the strikes had happened. So he stepped off to do another project. And then I was asked to meet for it. So it was kind of quite last minute.

I was in Poland at Camera Amage when I got the call. And then I think I started on the Monday having met Amber on the Thursday. on Zoom so it was quite yeah there were many dPs who could have taken that on so swiftly as Kate did it was a complicated show to walk straight in it yeah what was pre-production like for you then like here's a bible read it overnight or what it was um well it was just it was all quite accelerated I suppose I had I think I had about 10 days before the first day of shooting because we didn't have we had a bit of prep before and then we had a sort of section before Christmas and then had kind of Christmas and New Year's to kind of properly get up to speed on it all.

So, yeah, just kind of reading scripts on the way back from Cameramage and trying to get read around the world. But also, Baz and Ollie, the other two DPs, you know, that were in the office, they were super generous with kind of explaining, you know, the world. And also that because it was Silo 17, that hadn't yet been established, you know. So, you know, Baz was talking about what he wanted to do. And then I was able to be part of the testing, you know, in terms of the new spaces and colors and that sort of thing. So it felt like it landed in a way perfectly where the hiatus had been and how they'd managed to shoot out, you know, the Silo 18 work, that there was a kind of a new world that I was kind of coming into alongside Baznali that we were all kind of in it together going, how do we, how do you make this look dark, but still, you know, that we can see stuff.

so yeah yeah i'm actually interviewing those two later in the week so we're going to get a full picture of this whole show i think it's the most most dPs i've interviewed for one show uh so that'll be fun so if you have any uh stories about them let it rip because i'll just yeah we're getting early and try and yeah our version no yeah that actually brings up a good point though so like obviously anytime a series gets continued there's a you know I assume in most cases, they want to keep things looking similar or changing things up, you know, either whether it's technologically, you know, like, oh, new camera came out, new lights came out, that'll help us out.

Or just like, I guess, you know, art design and stuff like that. So what were those conversations about, you know, were there conversations about changing things from the first season to the second or had that all come up? I think Edward, because I was kind of later on, the other show was already, you know well underway so it might be a better place to speak to that yeah i mean i was um you know bas was kind of kicking it all off on block one um of series two so he um he'd been in for a few weeks he'd um really got his teeth into series one and and you know i think we all loved um you know the whole vibe of series one but but um baz evolved it um you know along the same line

but had selected I think it was the same how we were LF right it was it was mini LF on series one as well and then Baz made lens change so we they were anamorphic crop two to one

on on series one and then on series two we were a spherical crop to two three five so kind of yeah the opposite version but you know Baz wanted to sort of capture more of the world that way which is you know always the joy to compose and so yeah but i mean that was um that that was all um bas and the kind

of block one team so um we were kind of you know picking up the ball and running with it at that point does that way oh go ahead i was just going to say i think what's quite fun about silo the way is kind of evolving is that you're getting new worlds and i'm sure in season three and season four there's another you know i'm guessing maybe there's another silo you know so there's like this new discovery i don't know that's not that's not a spoiler there's much It's just, yeah. Actually, to be fair, there's been a book already. So, you know, but so I suppose it's available for those who look.

Yeah, so there is that potential to, you know, for it to be evolving because you're kind of going into new spaces and stuff. So, and yeah, at the end of the end of 10, we were in a different space and I got to play with some new lenses for that just, you know, as you do. Right. Yeah. Yeah, the, I'll often, when doing research for those things, like, go see what the online discourse is to see, like, can I answer questions for average people? And one, one that I love when people guess, because especially on Reddit, people are just very, like, this is what happened. And someone said, hey, there's weird stuff around the edge of frame in this one scene. Does anyone know what that was?

It's kind of fudgy. And immediately someone goes, oh, well, this was about season two. They shot anamorphic. So that's, lenses like that look like that. Well. No. There's a lot of confidence in our cinematography that I'm blind. So you've been there too, on?

In this case, yeah, in this case, no. I mean, so we were on with the movie tech primes, right? Yeah. I can't quite remember the history of, but they have a long, illustrious history of what I think they started as different lenses and have been modified. but they um apart from looking rather beautiful there's also a huge range of them so we were kind of spoiled for focal lengths um which was handy because some of the sets pretty small and and

certainly a lot of the sets are quite can be quite challenged to to sort of they they want to be composed in very graphical ways and so it's nice to have the you know the exact you know range that you want without sort of reaching for the zoom um to be able to to to to get all those columns exactly where you might want and doors exactly where you might want so yeah that was a big thing and i think the the lenses they have on series one whilst um this is just my i haven't spoken to bass about this but for my take i think by the time you start cropping the animorphics into two to one i feel like it started to lose some of the things that make them interesting anyway a little bit like they're still you know i i think

that couple with the fact that the lenses they had i think were mechanically not super reliable so they had to have a lot of sets and circulation to keep going. It's a super intense show. They were like at least two units, if not more, going. So, you know, I think the movie tech primes work better for the scale that we're working on. Well, and I imagine. Because she moves faster, I think, as well. Yeah, for sure.

That was literally faster, better close focus. Yeah. Yeah, you're not breaking out of the optors for sure. Yeah, that does bring up actually one of those kind of like fundamental cinematography questions is like when you say, you know, breaking out the Zoom, do you, I feel like it's kind of one of those, there's two types of people, people. You know, it's like the Zoom is infinite. You know, you can do whatever you want is you just frame it up and then, but maybe not creatively fulfilling or maybe you end up being like kind of, I don't know, maybe sloppy. Because you can just set the camera and go, that's about right, you know. Do you do you guys have an opinion on, uh, do you, do you guys have an opinion on, uh, do you. Do you, do you guys have an opinion on, uh, do you. Do you, do you. do you have a preference given the opportunity? I mean, I, I'd say I do like Primes. I've just done a little indie feature and we didn't have a Zoom on it at all, which was kind of fun.

You know, often you have a Zoom just in case and then it stays on the truck for most of the job, you know? So, but I think that there's nothing wrong with using a Zoom. There's certainly places where it's just so, like if you're on a crane, you know, like, and you just need to make a small adjustment or zooming in shot. you know where where you can hide that like and not a snob about it um i think also quite like a small light camera because it's just a bit more agile and so if you've got a big 10 to 1 even if you're not the one that's maneuvering it it's just it isn't you can't just kind of grab it and be

handheld so i i think that's partly from a practical perspective um and i do often quite like to shoot you know quite like at t2 which um you know most zooms aren't going to give you that so I think if I had to choose it would be a prime but what's your take on Ed? Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think I'm all about just the camera being teeny tiny and I think even if it's huge it becomes this like even if it can be moved around, it's like this psychological weight that limits your thinking a little bit. You know, I would ideally it would be sort of just like a magical, it would be the size of a filter

and you know, you would just be able to put it. wherever and back it up and it would produce the exact type of image I wanted. But yeah, it just, as soon as it becomes a zoom, it becomes the bigger matbox and the bigger bars and then the thing. And then suddenly it's a, you know, it's on a huge crane and the cranes on another crane. Like it sort of extrapolates into something that feels like it's getting in the way of finding that the one true best place for your POV to be for any given moment a drama so yeah for that reason um you know it i think the the depth of field stuff for sure i definitely on the wide shots i love being able to do a wide shot and still be t2 etc um but yeah i mean

i think sometimes people use zooms as like you know you get the whole variable prime thing where like i'll use the zoom but i'll only use the exact settings that's like the worst of all worlds surely like you got yes um but yeah i think did we have a zoom on silo i think we probably did was it on the truck i don't think there was ever i don't think there was ever a shop i remember being on it for yeah but then i think there's a lot for the long range right you want it is something you need like sort of 150 200 more and then the the the range of primes available at that end starts to get pretty spread out yeah for the like the or the see camera that needs to kind of pick out little bits and bobs when you're only doing it on a couple of takes and you know

to kind of find all those moments around the other cameras yeah yeah um yeah but i think a lot of a lot of 17 had quite a lot of handheld being done by joe russell so it was generally a small camera as possible yeah well and cameras are getting so i mean i i feel like i say this every 10 seconds but like cameras literally are like i uh speaking of the internet you know i i kind of laugh at how people are like I have an FX3 now I'm a cinematographer but to be fair you can use it I was just talking to

Catherine Goldschmidt about Last Bus and she was saying in the I don't know if you guys have seen the show but there's one kind of cramped all the zombies are trying to get to the character and she's like under a fence and she was like yeah we used a Ronin 4D for that it's like really

I listen don't stand me on the road of buddy because I've missed the writing footie I love this camera I own two of them like. Oh, really? Yeah, I use it for tons of stuff and I can't say enough good things about it. But yeah, I mean, it doesn't matter. And I, you know, in terms of the sort of gatekeeperiness of who is and isn't a cinematographer,

I'm like, listen, if you're getting up at 4 a.m. and never seeing your family and going to some random car park for bad coffee, you're a cinematographer. It's fine in my book. It's not about the camera for sure. the cameras do get smaller but they always but then you know they get packed up again don't they that you get a small body and then all the accessories and the monitors and bits and pieces then you're like oh it's pretty much the same size every other camera I've been shooting on for last it's really interesting you know what this this is a slight digression but I just

watched a documentary about like transport policy stay with me and it it was basically about how as there's been advances in like transportation technology but right in the all of they've always been designed to make people's commute shorter but actually what happens is the distance there's a fixed amount of commute time that people are willing to have and the more train lines and more lanes you add to your highways just the further away people live and I think there's a there's a with that with like camera stuff in that like camera departments um roping myself into this totally feel comfortable having a 18 ton truck and you know mag liners and stuff and monitors and things and kit and floor bags and I think that it's very very hard even with

the smallest camera to have everything else not be like that because I think that's like our comfort zone because we're camera professionals so we should have this stuff and it can take a while to sort of strip it in you know strip it back to the the bare minimum because no AC wants to be the AC that didn't have the widget that you happened to need that one time. Yeah, one time in six months. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think when you went with ACs that have done more documentary, they're, they're slightly

more liberated from that. And if you're like, I'm just going to run up that hill, I'll put this, I'll put the prime in my pocket. You know, some ACs would be like, whoa, no, you're not. You know, and others are like, cool. Yeah. And I'll be like, send me if I drop it. I showed this music video years ago.

and the guy's dad happened I got chatting to him and he seemed to know about camera stuff and it turned out he had been a travel DP

for like you know Wickers World and Michael Palin and all these amazing shows and they would send them you know

once I got him talking they would send us off to do like around the world an episode based on around the world tour and they would send us with like

10 rolls of 16 mil and that was it like and you see You know, see, and it was just him and the presenter and like a sound guy. So you're traveling super light. And you have to not only travel with not much kit, but shoot incredibly precisely. Like I love that. That's a skill.

I feel like I've not got just to be that concise about what you need to tell the story. Yeah, I'm on the opposite side. I've been shooting a lot of documentaries. Luckily, they're like real ones, you know, that are going to end up on TV. There's been a lot of, you know, friends stuff where it's like, well, it did go to. a festival and you're like that's great and then no one ever sees it again but you know it's you mentioned like getting the 18 ton and everything and it's like I've probably done like one of them is a docky series and there's two or three movies and it's like every time I come back home

and go back to like continue it my gear just gets bigger and bigger because there's like one thing I forgot and now the rest of the day I'm panicking you know or like I'm running sound why am I running sound we accidentally muted the mic pack on like like the main character of this one doc and we were just, we didn't notice until we were dumping footage and we just had like, I almost vomited that night. This.

So I get the, I get the urge to want, you know, just get everything. The line producer will deal with it. Yeah. Yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot.

Yeah, the things you own end up owning you, right? Yeah. It seems crazy to talk about that on silo because silo is, it's just like, it was an amazing. machine to just be a small cog of because just to to produce something of that quality of that just literal world building like everything being certainly in in the bits I did in silo 18 like it's

you're contained everything is constructed everything has been has come out of someone's imagination so to see all of those sort of artists working together um it is is quite something. I mean, and then, you know, Casey, I worked so beautifully with the cake and I self sharing this block because she then got to go on and design this whole look for, for the other silo that, you know, spoiler alert was, you know, might have been the same set, slightly changed. Probably people could figure that out. But yeah, I mean, the split ending up there was, was kind of remarkable timing, right? I know. I mean, I do think that they must have, did you, like, you knew the strikes were coming, I guess. You know, there was

rumours wasn't there so was it a lot of overtime to try and get it all done very clever people who who produced silo probably knew more than i did about when the actor strikes were going to fall yeah i suppose so i mean it felt like we always knew there was always this hiatus um you know a couple of weeks built in so that the arts parliament could flip all the sets uh i didn't know if that had been part of the design it'd have to be yeah i guess it probably was yeah the clever clever monkeys but yeah um so that that was gray and i think that was um probably much more fun for you right kate coming in and having an actual you know new world really to explore i mean because when i was sent when i was sent the scripts um it was i was kind of you know trying to skim read and get my

sense of what this world was and then i said oh lots of cool stuff's happening here like we got some underwater stuff and you know and so um yeah it seemed like it was there was a really fun creative and technical challenge, you know, which, and also the joy of that kind of show and that scale, there's already, there's already the precedent of the scale that's, that's, um, this part of the show, but you're, there is the luxury, I think, of feeling like you have the means to be able to do your job well, which, um, you know, isn't a given. I think, uh, it's always, I mean, the ambition always outstrips any budget or schedule, but, but it often feels like, you know, on other shows, it can really feel like you're on that sort of hiding to nothing, you know,

and you're expected to kind of pull the moon out of a hat. But I feel like on silo, we're really lucky that, you know, there was the space in the time to do things, to do things well and execute them well. And you had the, you know, a great crew and team supporting you and, you know, wonderful art department. So it was, it was really enjoying that way. And yeah, it was, it was, yeah, I really,

I just kind of, I quite like doing moody stuff. So it sort of seated me. It's quite happy. But by the end, I was like, please give me a window, please. anything. Yeah, I think we all felt a little in us.

Just one, just one window. Come on, Hugh. Write a scene with a window. Yeah. I did get to do, I got to do the ramp

and the stuff on, on top, a spoiler alert with Rebecca leaving for a bit. So, yeah, that was, we did get to see Dayland on.

Hills. I got to stop for a day. But I mean, it's an interesting challenge itself when you're in a world that is you know the incredible

BAFTA nominated VFX team had the entire silo the entire silo like not just the flaws that we had sets for you know modeled and existed and that that asset asset capital A had like lighting designed

into it and they were yeah they were the real custodians of like what was what where light sources could be and it wasn't like they'd come that it in a very creative interesting way you were I didn't I never felt like I was you know hamstrung by by what they had put in but they they you couldn't be sort of fast and loose with I'll just whack a cool backlight in there'd be well hang on like

there might be something if you block it this way but like it has to you know we're going to be doing these after long after you've gone we're going to be doing these huge uh epic sort of VFX wide shots and what you've put in like that they so wanted the the final composite shots to make sense in terms of the kind of matching um of everything so yeah as kate says like the scope of it was huge and no one really ever sort of said if you had a big idea um i got to do an epic you know wire cam shot that was very complex like no one never said no to stuff like that but you you were careful before you opened your mouth to suggest it that it was going to be really good and work for the show because you could just

see all of the craft and sort of high level work happening around you so you know before you're like coach tap me in you're like okay let's let's sing this through and that's inspiring kind of vibe to be part of yeah definitely yeah like you you have an idea and then you start seeing people's heads turn like getting ready to go this what you know like are is that what we're doing all right like yeah yeah yeah it was cool Well, and you bring up the lighting and sort of lack thereof, especially in the derelict silo. But I saw some behind the scenes photos, and it looked like you guys only had one or two, like, of the spirals built out. Yeah, the central, the main stage is kind of what you'd call, well, we'd call it ground floor in the U.S. would be first, second, and then a tiny bit of the third.

So it's, it's, it's not huge. I mean, it is, it's great, but it's. You walk in, yeah, when you get at the tour, you would get the tour initially and you'd be like, whoa, it's huge. And it is. And it also has the joy that it's connected to lots of other sets. Like physically, you can walk through, you can design shots that all join together. But it's, you know, as you started working on it, you're like, hang on. because it's it's rotationally symmetrical and like 120 degree pie so like as you

the bit that we'd have you would you got into lots of sort of like weird visual reasoning puzzles where you would be shooting kind of you know someone's POV looking down and then someone's POV looking up but they'd be theoretically like spun by 240 degrees based on so yeah I felt like it was sort of the final boss battle of eyelines sometimes figuring that stuff out

it was you know the set the physical set that existed was incredible and the art department

would would redress it constantly to like an absurdly high standard level of detail you would just

be running your hands over things being like is this this was made yesterday and it looks

like it's like 100 year old weathered concrete it's absolutely amazing but then there was lots of you know

there's levels in the silo And this is all in the capital A asset about like, you know, level 80 is fans and level 79 is a hydroponics farm level. And then the level above that is judicial and all this sort of stuff. So and because the story takes you all around the place, there would be levels where the blue screen team, which was gigantic. I mean, there must have been like 20 or 30 people just sort of looking after blue screens would have to wrap the inside of. that's set in blue and we just have the sort of handrails and floor and steps basically and then the next day that would all have to come out and be something else behind it so just the the planning

of all that stuff was um was remarkable yeah the uh i want to get to the blue screen stuff in a quick second because i know like kate you worked on game of thrones right for a bit like so you've got experience in that kind of uh larger than life vs x world but before we get there i did want to ask like I saw in that main set, you know, obviously you just basically had big ass top light and then, you know, little kind of lamps put around. But it sounds like you guys were really trying to stick to the reality of the situation. And so I was wondering, did that involve like kind of like no lamps on the ground just doing, just working with the space? And if so, was that freeing or was that, did that pose a problem? I mean, I think it's probably a bit different, you know, in terms of how.

the silos looked in 17 and 18 because, you know, because they, because when it, when you look up the silo, there's a kind of like an LED that can be blue, you know, so that they can do that the effects. But the challenge of that when you don't want much light, you know, is that it can be sort of skirted off or have a kind of egg crate equivalent of it because then it doesn't serve that function. And so we were kind of using balloons, uh, with skirts that could move around depending on the shots to kind of give this like ambient gloaming, I suppose that's kind of how I kind of thought of it, this kind of non-directional light that kind of could be there and then, you know, supplemented with when they had torches or if they were at IT level,

which is where there was meant to be power or there was power, then sort of a few floors above, a few floors below justified there being a little bit of a spill, you know, so there was a kind of logic there with what floor a scene was happening on like would there be any spill from IT or could they have like reasonably like sort of tethered off you know kind of some power to be able to get a light source running in their apartment you know so it was yeah that was that so I think basically that was the biggest challenge in most when you would read the script for everybody seen being like did they have a torch in this are they carrying a lantern or you know if they hadn't picked up the lantern like talk like in one when Baz and I had

and crosses, it's like, I was going to shoot the space first, but it appeared first in his episode. And it was like, could you, could you maybe imagine your character might leave a lantern there that we can use what we come in on ours? Because that's kind of, that's sort of how, yeah, it was. So that's what, yeah, it was a really interesting challenge over the, you know, kind of few months just trying to, like, play with that darkness. But to a point that it isn't, you know, it doesn't become, like, pisses the audience after that. Like, I'm at Tennessee. You know,

I had the silo 18 stuff, I was had the benefit of there being electricity available in the story. He was spoiled. Yeah. I mean, I think that. Oh, luxury. Yeah. Backly, he's spoiling me, Ambassador.

I thought as time went on, the photography I, I was the most proud of. I think ones where I, you know, yes, we had the belief. and we'd move stuff around and there was a fantastic lighting team including everything's on the desk and there's one billion control channels and stuff so you know you have phenomenal levels of control but I found it work best when you treated it almost in a sort of document with a documentary eye and you you started and really didn't deviate too much with what sort of the state had been established in in conjunction with what was in

that asset where those things were because it was such a huge set you know you could if you were there for real um as a documentary filmmaker it there would be nothing stopping you um you know using the large soft source that exists in the um in the stairwell as like a soft backlight you might be where you would you would stage some of your documentary stuff for sort of best synographic effect in that so rather than trying to always force the light the way i wanted sometimes you had to um i would try and lean um where i could with ambled temperton the amazing director we've both shared um would be very receptive to to blocking things in a way that sort of you know had the most beautiful light that that made sense um and wasn't um a sort of stand out i and i sort of feel like

you know as you know in general as time has gone on with my work like I just sort of feel like anyone can do pretty lighting you know the techniques of how to make something look pretty a fairly trivial but sort of keeping it true to the to what's happening in the story and it not suddenly being this kind of jarring transition in and out of stuff where everything is sort of has that perfect contrast fall off that you might want you know the better really um so I enjoyed some of the, you know, weird industrial lights that might be suddenly harsh in doorways into darker areas and lighter areas. Yeah, some of those tunnels, that's kind of sodium vapor look is... Yeah, that was fun. And I think we all had bits with head torches. Baz made decision really early on that sort of the head torches should be more sort of a warmer color temperature, which I really enjoyed.

so because a lot of the sort of there's cases like the non-light like the gloaming I like that that's a great phrase you know that would tends to feel better if it's cooler like you know certainly like the down the very bottom of the silo

where kind of mechanical are is established to be a bit warmer but then we go sort of into other you know spooky vibes even below that in the story and that would often be a slightly cooler sort of base base level so to have to at least build

in some color contrasts in the side was quite hard to come by is something I really love photographically so but finding finding it in a world in which the set is quite skin tone in all its variations

like it's very much in that sort of side of the colour wheel and the light is generally quite monotone there aren't too many variations in colour we didn't want to really change too much as to what had been seen in series one as to what lights were different colors and things.

So, yeah, having, the head torch stuff was great because you could suddenly have people exploring the dark with these little piercing warmer cones in front of them into kind of this cool, terrifying darkness. Right. I think in the colour contrasting, that was what was quite nice about 17. There was a bit more chance.

And like, well, in episode 9 with the kids' farm, you know, that had every excuse just to have. have kind of whatever color, not whatever color, but, you know, within a, within a world, you know, have that variation which made it an enjoyable contrast from torches and darkness or headway. And so, yeah, the, that actually brings up something that I hadn't really thought of. But like, in the, did you guys have like a shooting? Like, who decided on the grade and, and like, that was, well, there was, it's a

Same color I'm going with that because it's like, I assume we had the shooting lot, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was live graded, right? We had someone applying that all the whole time and tweaking it. Yeah. And so we had the show lot to begin with.

And then, you know, that was kind of the basis. And then Bill, who was the same colorist, I think on season one, wasn't he? Yeah. So, so yeah, I kind of, I feel like the, well, I mean, again, it's a slightly different world. but it was working really nicely in 17 and playing with that live grade. Like when I was re-lighting the set head that you used as well, the kind of the memory library,

that massive room with all the cool. What's the official name for it? It was the orory. Yeah. So that space featured in 17, you know, as their version of it, but obviously it was the same physical space. so I sort of had a day to try and sort of make changes that I felt would be

you know like something like sort of broken the colour temperature shifted like you know that kind of give it a different feel but without you know kind of going back to square one so that was a lot of just kind of turning things off and moving things around and changing the colour temperature and working with the colour temperature of the camera like so switching those two up to be able to feel like there was a there was a kind of colour contrast that was different and a different, you know, it's again, it's sat down because, you know, it doesn't have the, you know, the same level of energy

to be able to keep it all going. So, so, yeah, so, but I think that, yeah, everyone was, I feel like the, the way it looked on set, obviously is, is, you know, polished in the grade, but it wasn't straying a million miles away from kind of what we were working with to, you know, at the time. Yeah, that would be, that was kind of my, feeling. Well, and especially that oratory is that's, you're talking about like the sort of

future, the only futuristic room in the, in the whole. So that's the, well, I can't remember what that's called, but yeah, where he speaks to, I don't know if it's a spoiler to say who he's speaking to, so I won't. But yeah, there's a voice that he's speaking to. That's, that's not in the silo. And so, yeah, that, that's the very sort of hypermodern, or the sweet, very sort of Star Trek-E and then beyond that is this sort of amazing library where, you know, whoever is the head of IT has sort of got this, this, the history of human race is sort of, you know, all of its art and culture is sort of stored. Again, like the set dressing team, unbelievable.

Like you could just go around these, you know, you'd go into sort of pre-light these sets and be like, I've just waste it now. I'd look at him and all the stuff. I'd actually make some decisions now because, yeah, they're just so much detail. Like, they really told, every set told a story. And they were so fastidious about making sure all that stuff. I mean, some of the sets that Kate got to shoot,

I saw that when they were starting to sort of concept them, but all the kind of, you know, as I was 17, there's been this sort of collapse of the society. so there was all this sort of graffiti and the kind of the school room I thought looked amazing and the more you looked at it was just sort of those fractal levels of detail all supporting the same story

so that's super exciting to walk onto a set and see all that sort of stuff yeah especially the sets that we're in so briefly when Juliet's on the hunt for you know a helmet or something that she can stitch together to get out there and it's just like you know fleetingly a few seconds

in this room with a torch, but anywhere you looked, there was just this amazing level of detail and all kind of covered in this soft layer of dust that, you know, makes it feel like it's been there for an eternity. So, yeah, you know, just I think when you walk into a set that feels very, you know, the detail is there, then it does make an exciting place to kind of bring to life because, you know, it's an awesome kind of playground. Yeah, this is why I am always championing the return of special features and not the kind that we're getting right now, which are very much, like,

interesting, you know, you'll be watching. Apple certainly does this, HBO, but, you know, you'll watch through the credits and then they'll give you, like, a little, like, three-minute feature at. That's fun. Interviews are fun, but, like, I would love the old school style of special features. Yeah, where you got like seven documentaries. Yeah, and just go in that room and just film everything,

you go, look at this. You know? Yeah. I mean, I think we must have all watched the, we might have even talked about this last time, Kenny, but the film school that is the social network behind the scenes documentary which is like legendary

you could just watch that and go and start working in the industry yeah that one obviously the Lord of the Reins extended edition yeah the Panic Room special edition has like a literally pre-production to production and post like the stuff they did on the Hobbit weirdly

was amazing I didn't love the films as much but the behind the scenes they did and the Hobbit was like, um, it's notepable. Yeah. Hellboy 2 has a documentary in it

that's longer than the movie. Wow. It's awesome because Giermore also bring back commentary tracks as well, right? Like how we're more like an affidavitans. Yeah. Yeah.

So. I'm not listening to the first gladiator, you know, we're watching it with, you know, the commentary over it and just like, yeah. It's weird how studios

sort of went off the idea of slightly booted. up filmmakers, just letting rip. But yeah, maybe it'll come back. But yeah, it's so much fun. Well, this is, so this is my argument in favor of if no one wants to make an investment in special

features, commentary tracks cost nothing to produce. Nothing. Yeah. And then the best when you go in the streamer, right, you can select the thing and go English, Japanese, Spanish, whatever, fucking commentary. Yeah. It'll take up no space on the

server. I've been screaming about this for a while. Like, it would be so easy. Well, you know, obviously got to wrangle the town. Aside from that. Let's start the campaign. Read Marano's managed to fix the awful true motion smoothing on TV. True. The next project will bring back commentaries. Yeah. Oh, man. Did you see this just released yesterday. Did you see Steve Gedlin's HDR demo? I'm so excited to watch it. I just, I need like a clear three hours in my schedule. I need to watch it on the best display. It's just like Christmas for film nerds. So I watched it on my computer and I was able to calibrate.

He has like a calibration patch in the demo where he's like set this to 200 nits if you can and then you're good like because he knows it's being recorded. So he kind of set it up so that it'll look approximate like it. But it's less important to see what's going. It's more informational. You don't need to watch it on like a C-Bahn or whatever. It needs to be the thing of like the seven stages of grief of watching. like a Steve Edden documentary which is like initially like oh this is amazing and then you're like

wait hang on nothing matters and then you sort of come back around and be like now empowered it's great he's he's such a it's such a generous guy he's so smart and he just puts all this stuff out there for us all to learn from it's it's legendary okay are you are you that type of nerd who watches these things um i don't think i'm as as as i don't know how to say that politely i think i get you can go for it that's right we're not a safe space yeah look in my trace it's fine yeah

but what's funny speaking of the internet you know people I posted it on the cinematography subreddit and then there was one in the 4K Bluray subreddit

and that was way worse but it's like all these experts going like you know he didn't touch on this and I'm like Roger Deacons is in the audience for this presentation be quiet

yeah yeah I think he might know more than me but I did want to I did want to circle back to the VFX thing because again the my

My buddy Joey Fameli shoots for Adam Savage's YouTube channel, and I know they went over there. Yeah, he came out. Yeah, yeah. Because I think Adam and Hugh Howie, the author, are pretty good friends. Oh, cool. I suspect that one. I was going to, I'm a huge Adam Savage fan, and I was really sad. I somehow missed him because he seemed like he was, from all the documentaries, he seemed like he was there for quite a while.

Yeah. Well, if you ever come to California, I mean, me and Joey can hang out at least. He's like, we just went to the ASC. see Clubhouse and filmed the thing on the history of cameras with Steve Gainer, which I don't know when that comes down. But yeah, so the VFX stuff, I was watching those little like mini docks and behind the scenes photos. And, you know, obviously the whole set is built out. But then there's obviously patches of blue for where the set's going to get extended or whatever. And earlier when you're talking about how there's no real way to like calibrate where you are in a circle, I was wondering

how you also handled not being, you know, I imagine the blue didn't help either when you're just looking in to negative space essentially. And so obviously the VFX team was incredible. Like you said, they were BFTA nominated for it. But how did you wrestle with that? Because I know Kate, again, Game of Thrones, you know you were there. Ed, you've worked on a bunch of stuff like that. Does it ever get easier?

But in terms of imagining what's going to be there and trying to work. Yeah, and shooting for something, yeah, essentially shooting for something that isn't there. Like, and just having someone go like, yeah, that'll be, don't worry about it or how to, How do those conversations go? Well, I mean, I think the great thing about silo is because a lot of those assets either, there was an element of that that had already been established in season one. And also that because of the timeline, the VFX, they're building stuff before. So there's this amazing scene at the end of nine where Lucas is coming down that, you know, rope.

And, you know, I was like, so what, how dark is it down here? What does it look like? you know and then they can kind of give you a work in progress assets of this is this is a scale and so then you're like okay so that's cool like we need you know a shot that's this size and we can make him tiny or you can be really big and you can then work out your shots because you do even though they're not finished yet um you can you know you know what's coming and you have an idea of how it's gonna you know the lighting that that's part of and you and you need to because otherwise you would be if it would be a bit like shooting you know a green screen where you don't you don't

if you don't know what's going in, you can't match your lighting to it, you know, unless it's the other way around that you're lighting it the way you want to and then the VFX team are taking their cue from you. But on silo,

it's definitely the other way around, you know. Yeah, it's interesting. Daniel Ralshwager is the VFX supervisor and I think co-producer as well. And, you know, Daniel's a filmmaker. Like his whole team are filmmakers and it never,

you know, yes, I agree with Kate and that it felt, for me, probably the project, where it was the most VFX led, but necessarily so, because the world exists largely sort of in percentage of sets to world in VFX. So they were the custodians of that, but they, you know, bore that load very successfully.

Like they were there with us the whole time. They had everything just incredibly. methodically planned out. They were able to pre-vis stuff very swiftly. They, you know, it never felt like sort of like, you know, robotic sort of science department that were just filling stuff in later. Like they, they were as interested as we were in, you know, in the visual style of it,

not just sort of putting in the bits of the set that were not really present. So, yeah, I mean, all of that blue screen stuff I don't think we ever did a scene like that in which they didn't have references to show us what went in there often it was

parts of that asset that we'd already seen in series one so we could look at all that stuff but there was some stuff we did we did a huge exterior set for the ramp where Juliet's you know both leaving and returning and

the actual sort of physical set itself is not gigantic but because of all of the stuff involved like first of all there's there's you know a big set of says she has to go down so then suddenly the section of those doors has to be elevated by you know 30 40 feet so this is huge scaffold structure and then you're seeing all around it so you need um blue around it so there's more giant teleandlers and machines and stuff with blues than i've ever seen before all being orchestrated by that team and when it was something like that that had so much blue around it they would often bring in the kind of uh i forget what the system's called but like a you know a live um tracking system so you would literally

you know you would it would it would track to and put the uh characters in the actual model so you could frame up exactly um and um you know i as yeah as kate i'm a pretty nerdy deep i i like all that stuff i like being able to ideally it you sort of of you've mastered that stuff and you use it to help you tell a story better but it's fun being able to work out like what's the exact you know distances needs to be to match this perspective that we had before and and plan all that stuff out have that stuff done and then and then on set it enables amber and the cast and stuff to concentrate on the the performance stuff because all of those weird elements are coming together um but yeah for sure there was a lot of blue

I think that is the great thing now that where, you know, the speed that technology is developing, but that you can have an iPad. I know on the Nevers we had a sequence and the VFX, you know, supervisor could be looking at it with the world on his iPad and move it around and you're like, oh, cool, that's great. And you just know and you have that kind of comfort and reassurance in real time that the shot's going to work the way it needs to, which is, you know, on a huge day when you've got a lot of extras and you've got like maybe three cameras and, you know, cranes, there's no, you know, you don't have, you can just minimize that possibility of something, not quite being in alignment and being costly for them to fix

and post or, you know, the shot being chucked out because it can't be. So I think it's great that there is all that technology there to support. I particularly enjoy doing the, the big oneer that we opened episode five with, was felt like a really lovely collaboration with Daniel and his team because it was, you know, that's a, that's a big shot for VFX to pull off because, you know, yes, we got the whole shot in camera, but the camera travels out of what is a 360 degree real set into that A stage staircase set, which had a huge amount of real set, but also a huge amount of not real set. And then, you know, we wanted to design the shot in such a way where you would you would suddenly feel that the drop below you of another 100 floors

of silo and and you know there's all kinds of obstructions and things in that stage like there are structural columns that have been clad and blue but you know if the difference between how the operators you know if they if they tilted a fraction of a second later and one of those blue columns wipes across a load of essays which are eight feet from can camera that suddenly the VFX are having to create like digital replacements of all of like 20 essays you know so which just makes the shot as a visible uh an extra supporting artist um but you know a huge I mean listen the whole other thing I could talk about is how amazing the AD team isn't this because this silos full of people and they're all like yeah like it's screaming at each

other yeah they've got like internal storylines of their own it's amazing um but yeah like like shots like that i think a lesser vfx team might be like immediately sucking their teeth over um but you know with those guys they were like that's awesome like let you know it's a real lean in like what a great way to open the story so that there was that they would um just so there to be you know we did camera taste like late in tonight all the vfx guys were there being like well i think if we did this it would be even cooler and that's just like oh i can't tell you how nice it is to just feel like everyone's like yes anding the idea and you end up with something that feels like you've all sort of spun this this idea into reality and it's you know you're not just it's not just one

person trying to carry something across the finish line yeah well and it's one of those shows where like once I saw the photos I was like oh damn like I didn't expect obviously the sets are huge but like there's less than I thought like the VFX are so invisible that that it marries quite perfectly yeah yeah it's incredible yeah okay did you do any of the underwater stuff i saw on a behind-the-scenes feature that i think bas was there but were you involved in any of that yeah so i did the underwater stuff that's in five and eight and is there some in nine well if anyway i did i did a bunch of underwater stuff and it would be either in five eight nine or ten sure i think that any i was so sad it all fell all the

underwater stuff fell after when I had to sadly depart but the I mean the sets that they built for that were like unbelievable there was a tank that was just constructed in the stages that was like I mean I think they

didn't it take like a month just for the water to fill or something it was it just got a good long as a month but it was it was six months that's what I heard yeah it was two years it started one very five

It was all heavy. It took four days for them to drain it. Wow. But it was in one vibe in like, exactly little bags. Yeah, they did a, they did a, the bottom of,

you know, the silo is a separate, like that whole bit was a separate set that they built on one of our stages. And then we also did underwater work a pine wood for a tank that's much deeper. So, so yeah, that was like, that was just a really cool bonus when I was, when I read the scripts, I was like, yeah, she falls into the water and all this, you know, there's all this kind of fun stuff. So yeah, that was really, really exciting bonus. And actually, I think Olly also had a little bit of underwater work. So we all, basically, me, Baz and Olly all had some fun, you know, down at Pinewood or on the biggest stage. And it was incredible that it was, you know, that in fact, because that set gets represented. There was another stage on the E stage, I think it was, where again, you saw a section of this spiral and a lot of my work played in there because they had to break the bridge and all the stuff going to happen for the revolution.

And so then when we were shooting scenes that preceded that, you know, but obviously after in the schedule, that had to be on another set that again was replicating, you know, the main one. So, yeah, it's great when you see it all come together seamlessly and hopefully, you know, the audience is nonetheless there. Yeah, because I'm curious, I think I've only spoken of one other person where we talked about underwater work and he worked on Avatar, so it was all just dots and blue. But safety aside, what are some of the sort of unique challenges of shooting underwater?

Well, I mean, I think it's just the time it takes, you know, because everything, obviously the safety is a huge, huge aspect of it. So, you know, just changing a lens, bringing the camera back up the surface, you know, changing it, putting it back in the housing. And obviously take, you know, you're having to talk to crew or, you know, Amma's having to talk to cast through like kind of comes under the water. And it's just that, that bit of delay and, you know, moving lights underwater. Everything just takes a little bit longer.

but yeah it was a blue screen you know the same that we had the lighting for the blues underwater and then we had the lighting for you know for the cast and their action and we had a stunt double there but Rebecca did I think like certainly all the time that I was shooting the stuff at Pinewood it was Rebecca that was in the water you know she seems to be basically amphibious I mean she was yeah she would just be kind of taking the oxygen going down doing her stuff like you know it was amazing like I don't think the stunt i think the stunties probably got quite bored because they were always just being like on the sidelines being like we're here but um yeah she was just kind of all in

going again and again so uh yeah so i think it's just the time and obviously if you got anything that's surface level where people are popping up then you're working off a crane and and you can't just quite so easily move things or like if you need to get a third camera in on another angle it's a little bit slower because it has to go over water so um yeah And I guess, you know, like dealing with, well, I think that was the great thing about the VFX team that I've done water stuff before and, you know, you've got your blues or your greens and you've got all the kick and the spills spilling on the water. So, you know, that's another kind of like consideration. But I felt like our VFX team were just brilliant at not, you know, that they're quite, we can deal with that. You know, so don't stress it.

Just so you kind of did, I felt like the blues weren't as much of an issue as they can be on other shows, you know, in terms. of that, like the brightness or the contamination on the sets. Yeah. Well, and I imagine, is there like a special, like, filtration? Because I imagine, especially with all the set dressing under there, like, it immediately becomes like a pro-mist filter. Like, if you're not super diligent about the water being clean, the housing being clean, the lens going in clean.

All right. Yeah, I mean, like, there is, like, no, they usually use, like, there's a, well, I think its temperature, there's a water, which had to be relatively warm because cast were in it. So, but that. And then they have like, they're not a spray that they use on the front of the thing that stops it kind of, you know, getting all sogged up, you know. Yeah, they have to match. Obviously, keep the lenses in the same environment.

I mean, that's the stage of the huge. And I'm trying to remember that. I think the big tank was a cylinder like 30 meters across and six meters deep or something like it and it was full of set as far as I got to see it you know being shot on a little bit on some of Oli Zeps

and you'd walk in that stage which had other sets on and it was like walking into a you know swimming pool or whatever it was did the humidity of the stage was huge so yeah for if you were shooting anything at all of those stages

you had to let your lenses acclimatized so they wouldn't just immediately fog but yeah I mean the housings and stuff that the, I, I embarrassed I now can't remember the name of the, the underwater specialist, a cameraman that did all that stuff. But yeah, I mean, they, they have a huge amount of kids and it's all they do. And, you know, they, there's nothing they can't defog. They've seen it all. Well, I imagine it's just cream source central. Creamsor central. Well, actually, you know, I think our lighting team made up some really cool,

like a big soft box that was basically could go on. underwater and they waited and that could move around um that was jim being which you know like with some sort of tube lights the the other steers i think are water-free flat and they were the titans so my talking i think that there was some i think you're right yeah i mean yeah so's hard to the gaffer uh jim is best boy i mean lighting team again just remarkable work there was um the the reeking gaffer as well whose name escapes me like you would you would walk onto sets that like you know stuff was being constructed all the time and just the natural logistics of it meant that lighting stuff had to go up beforehand so so often the Rican Gaff was having to just make

decisions like months and advance of a sort of DEP having to think about a set and it was always just beautifully done with just great consideration for you know where you know for lots of soft sources lots of soft top lights but being able to control it you know you know how it could be tracked they were always all of us off very very rarely could we not track a soft box like x and y everything was was motorized everything had uh egg crates if we wanted it everything was meticulously labeled so you know you would walk into stages being like oh am i going to like this and you'd be like oh someone really brilliant has thought put a lot of thought this already um so again it puts you into a place where you feel like you can really start

working creatively with the director and the cast about trying to create a vibe about you know trying to tell a story and put the audience where the characters are and not just a lot of doing these sizes of shows can just be about we need to illuminate a large area and then you have like 500 meetings about you know what combination of construction cranes and soft boxes and stuff and like actually a lot of that work whilst it's sort of expensive spendy type stuff is is creatively not where the juices it's going to help make an audience feel involved in the show so having you know experts kind of like do a lot of that work initially is just super great and again it was just very rarely did you walk into a stage in a silo

and not be impressed by something that someone had done in advance yeah i mean it's certainly you know Even on the Marvel shows, I'll hear people go like, well, we're still on a TV budget. But it sounds like you guys were given an appropriate budget, at least. Well, I think it does. I think, yeah, I definitely felt like there was a time to kind of, I mean, I think we had prelights for, I think, all the sets that I was on. So you could go in and have a, you know, like work out how you're going to do things. And that saves so much time that you've had that little chance to kind of mull over some ideas or even try stuff out. and see if it's working

so that then you can finesse it certainly you know that I suppose I could just contrast the like the last scene in 10 which we shot in a pub in Spitalfield the art department obviously made it look like a bar in DC you know typically you'd have probably turned like on another show you'd have just turned up on the day

and it would have all you know that your day would have included them blacking it out you know and you wouldn't have maybe turned over for several hours you know but we had had the day before There's something that we couldn't do because of access and, like, pedestrian access. But it all been planned that, you know, like the kind of blackouts had been pre-cut so they could just go straight on and all the tents, you know, everything had been thought through so that you're kind of just getting ahead.

And it allows you to then, you're not covering that basic thing of, oh, I need just to have some light through a window. You know, you've had the chance to try stuff out and have little miniature lights on, you know, on a dolly so that it can look like kind of headlights or like those little fun things that suddenly make the show feel or the scene feel a bit more alive and help it match to the space. You know, because like, and again, they already knew where we were shooting that scene in D.C.

And so you've had the chance to to kind of look at what is on those street corners and the elevation and all that stuff that just helps like marry those two worlds together. And, you know, smaller shows that, you know, don't have necessarily the resources, but also there's such a, like a real, you know, like an artistic intention. I think on, you know, on silo of people, wanting to make sure it is the best that it can be. So that's the kind of, I think that's the thing that really sets it apart from a lot of other shows that every HOD has got that in their mind and you're being supported by production

to make sure that you can do the job the best way that you can, you know. So if it doesn't look good, you know, it's on you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, the one thing that sucks about interviewing two people at once is the time goes by so aggressively quickly that like I would want to keep you guys for another hour. I've been talking for eight hours now. I think me

and I mean for like two last time but I did want to wrap it up. I was wondering if there was maybe a shot or a sequence that both of you are particularly proud of whether it be either visually or like what it took to get it done. There's a sequence I really

enjoyed cheating that I think it is I think it's in, I think it's in 10, where Solo was going back to his childhood apartment and he's remembering that. And it was, it was scripted that, you know, we're kind of in and out of this memory. And that was really fun because that was done, you know, in camera with people moving tables and essays running out and art department, like bringing in stuff that was covered in dust. So it was, it was, it did, although, you know, in the way that often happens, things get cut into it. It was like, let's cut back to the close-up. And you're like,

everyone's one take gets cut up. But it kind of played in this one that was really beautifully, you know, really beautifully fun to choreograph with the lighting kind of coming up and coming down. And so, yeah, I had like, had time to kind of play with that as a pre-light. And we'd had a rehearsal with the cast before, you know, just with kind of, you know, your iPhone on Artemis, you know, so it was, that was one that I really enjoyed just because it's such a small sequence in such a big, you know, the scale of the show that we've been. talking about is so apparent, but this, I felt there was a lot of sort of quiet, intimate scenes in the scenes that I was shooting in those episodes. And that was one that I just really enjoyed

because I think when there is that trying to do something in a oner that involves everyone being really focused, you know, from all the departments, it's really satisfying when it comes together. Yeah, and I mentioned a little bit about the episode five opener, but that's one I really love because I just think it, um, you know, basically wasn't cut into, uh, and it couldn't be because we did shoot anything else. Um, uh, so, uh, but it, it just involved everyone pulling together and it just, it is a shot design that works the story so well. It, it takes, it reintroduces the world, what's changing in the silo and then puts the context, it puts the heroes in the context at the end of the shot. So, so I think it just is successful from a,

storytelling point of view, not a sort of technical showy-off point of view. But I've spoken a bit about that. I think the other stuff I really love is just in episode 10 of the whole sort of final sequence of the riots kicking off and the world boiling over just because when you're trying to tell a sort of real-time story, but you're shooting it on a show like Silo to kind of track the same energy over the course of sort of months of of filming it just

just takes an army so that that whole riot every you know a lot of those sequences involved 200 essays all of the principal cast that's you know

and the unit as well I just think it's that's 500 people who all got up at 4 a.m. and came into work and were made up and costumed incredibly and directed incredibly by the crowd team

and then the incredible cast themselves like it just like it takes so much for that full sort of symphony orchestra to to produce that that final edit that all that all sort of bubbles through so yeah that's just sort of an inspirational thing to be part of I'm dead proud totally well it's uh by far one of my favorite shows of the past few years so you guys have really done a great job I remember when we were talking about hijack you were like I'm actually working on silo next and I was like oh sweet so I'm glad I've had this worked out. But I've just finished hijacked too. So it's, it keeps going. You'll just have you leapfrog.

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. But thank you so much for spending. Yeah, the, the hour of your evening. I know. No, no. Pleasure. Thanks for doing it on a Sunday. Oh, yeah. I'm in a Yeah. Thank you. Pretty appreciate that. You can learn a new trick for Lari. Yeah. Yeah. We can, we can talk more. I'll tell you something funny. All right. I'll let you guys go. But thanks again so much for chat with me. Thank you, Kenny. Hi, it's Kenny. Speak soon. Bye, bye. Bye.

Frame and reference is an Albot production, produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so by going to frame and refpod.com and clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated. And as always,

thanks for listening. I'm going to be able to be.