Frame & Reference Podcast - 193: "Ransom Canyon" Cinematographer Eric Koretz

Episode Date: June 10, 2025

This week we've got my friend and returning guest Eric Koretz on the program to talk about his work on Ransom Canyon, and more importantly the value of self-care and a healthy lifestyle when working in film (something I've been thinking about a lot recently).Enjoy!► ⁠⁠⁠F&R Online ⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠Support F&R⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠Watch on YouTube⁠⁠⁠ Produced by Kenny McMillan► ⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠ ► ⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠

Hello, and welcome to this, episode 193 of Frame and Reference. You're about to drop into a conversation between me, Kenny McMillan, and my guest, Eric Koretz, DP of Ransom Canyon. Enjoy. It was crazy. I was like, because the episode you did was like so popular, it's always kind of been top of my mind. But we haven't spoken since around this time in 2022. Wow.

Long time. I think we saw each other at a event at the ASC really briefly. Yeah, yeah, probably the Kodak Awards or maybe just, are you going to that tonight? No. There's like a, there's like a, I think, clubhouse. conversation like their podcast right yeah and i got an invite so but i live on the west side so i'm like oh yeah we'll see starts at 530 stop doing events then you did but you know why because most they see is uh lives over well yeah well yeah or 60 years yeah yeah the event starting

at nine they're like that's almost dinner yeah although although i'm the same way i'm like nine clock that's past my bedtime dude i i need to get on that scale i feel so i've been having like anxiety attacks recently just on like feeling like i have too much to do just because like i'm not just dping right now like i'm editing a lot too so it's like right i'm balancing so much that i end up going to bed at like two three in the morning oh man but then a lot of it'll kill you it'll kill you but also a lot of it is so like um it's not spent effectively Like, a lot of it is just trying to get, like, stop being so stressed that I'll actually do something. Right.

That's. Do you meditate? Yeah. Well, I used to more, but that was when I felt like I had more time. It's like the same thing with working out, you know? Right. I was really regiment. But if, but if you don't, then, you know.

Yeah. So you have to find the time. And there's some, I mean, there's basic meditations that you can do on your own, but there's so many apps these days that can really. help with that I actually when I when I guess lecture if I or talk to students or young DPs or old DPs or whatever I always recommend meditation and taking time for yourself because like if you our business is so fucked up and time consuming and stressful like if you don't it really it really takes a toll and that that helps it helps me so I figured it could help other people too you know yeah I was

just talking to Andy, oh, I can't quite pronounce. I have to look up how to pronounce his last name. Starts with an hour though. He's Polish. But he shot friendship. And a big part of that conversation was just like health meditation. So luckily for me, I'm not one of those people. I used to be, but therapy helped too. Therapy and meditation, two great things for. Oh, yes. Absolutely. But the therapy helped me realize that like I'm the only one in my head. you'll hear people go like oh I can't I can't be quiet for that law I can't so it's a fucking madhouse up here and you're like then fix that it's just you you got to fix it I'm lucky enough that with meditation it's not like scary right you know it's kind of one of those things

kind of like working out where working out blows when you're out of shape but then once you get in shape you start you do start to feel like good about it right the first thing three four months just feel like you're beating yourself up same thing with meditation is like at first it's you get like the urge to scroll or whatever you know but i that yeah but you know what it is i was thinking about this literally yesterday because it's been top of my mind it's the feeling of selfishness i need to be working for someone else right now and i'm and i'm spending time to do my own thing right yeah which is a stupid thought i've had that thought before and dismissed it but it's just like right now because there's

so much stuff on top of each other. I'm caught in a... Well, it's human, especially considering, like, the times in social media and 24-7 assault on the senses, you know, but it's really the best thing we can do for ourselves, especially if you want to eventually spend time for someone else. You've got to spend time for yourself first, you know? Yeah, that... Yeah, I got to prioritize it. I'm not doing just edit.

Do it tonight. Tonight's your night. Yeah, I'm going to go to the ASC thing, just relax, come home, and not freak out about not editing. Just go to bed at 9, oh, I guess, whatever, 10 probably. Yeah. Or you could meditate during the ASC event while you're here and just see what people do. Yeah, I'm listening, but it's very passive. What have you been up to since, what, 20, 22?

There must have been online. Yeah, I mean, since Ozark, I've been working in TV mostly. Well, all except for a few commercials in a movie, but I shot a show called Special Ops Lioness from Paramount Plus, which is a Taylor Sheridan show. And I've done, I did another small show. and I just finished a show called Ransom Canyon she's on Netflix now so I've been working

pretty nonstop in television you know it was funny I was looking up I didn't listen to our last conversation so I'm hoping you don't cover shit up or like redo stuff but after you know 120 episodes I can't imagine it would be the same conversation anyway but um but uh i found an interview with you uh from 2017 where you were talking about like i shoot everything for the big screen like i hate looking at little screens and stuff like that and i was

like i bet that opinion's changed right yeah well i don't know if i don't know what the interview that was but if i was talking about little screens like your phone opinion hasn't changed like you were talking about daily's on an iPad especially oh right yeah well that's there's no other choice usually especially for TV for film I bring well even for I'll rephrase that I actually bring a projector in a pop-up screen and with me to wherever I'm shooting for for example in New Mexico is in for Rans of Canyon was in New Mexico and at least the first the test in the first couple weeks I will screen the Dailies for or the director and I on an iPad, I'm sorry, on a projection screen with my short thrift projector,

I ask, I ask post to send us to pro-res outputs as opposed to the iPad dailies. And I do that for the whole first episode so that we could really know what we're getting for on the same page. And you have to fight for it because they're, of course, they're like, we don't want to fucking spend money so you can get pro-res dailies. But when you convince, when you run it through the producer, the showrunner, and tell them the benefits of it and show them on the screen, even though, obviously, with television, most people aren't looking at it projected, but there's still, TVs are fucking huge these days. So, you know, it's not too far off. And it really helps set the mindset of, okay, we're doing a quality show where the cinematography is important.

We can see every little detail as opposed to things that get missed with iPad Daily. because it's such low resolution and such a sharpness and crisis. Yeah. You don't know if something's out of focus. You see what's in focus, you know, my guys are great, so it's not an issue. But like, you know, sometimes there'll be a shot and you don't know if you have it or not. Not that editors usually care. They'll put a out of focus shot in it just in their order and say, well, it was the best performance.

You're not wrong. Yeah, it's happened quite a bit. but um um yeah i find and then after i've done that for the first uh first episode then i'm more comfortable with the iPad dailies and um and and honestly i don't need i i look at the dailies but i i am so in the monitor when i'm shooting that i know what i've gotten that day and i double check and things that i'm questioning but like i know what i've shot I stick to the monitors because that's everything

and that's how I that's how I do it with Dailies well I remember back in film school back in the day there was a big kind of obviously people brought this up before but like you know the difference between television and film was way different you know most people

talk television they're talking about three camera or whatever but do you do you guys consider we, you know, Ozark was probably the same, but when you're making a show for Netflix or Paramount or whatever, like, do you consider the display size in your framing? Because obviously if you shoot everything Lawrence of Arabia style. Yeah. There's the idea potentially in the back your head that it's going to be, you know, the size of a pinhead. Yeah. Hmm. No. I don't. I believe it should it should stand on its own

cinematically uh the language of the film now if if if it was a special case where you know we knew it was only going to be seen on phones or vertical or quibb or whatever or quibby rest in peace um some beautiful shows on quippy or there was for the 10 seconds so existed for the 10 seconds it's great idea um but um you know if you start if you start thinking that way, then everything's just going to be a close-up or a medium shot. And so you have to think what's the best cinematic language for the project, for the scene, for the shot, and not, will this look good at an iPhone? Right.

Because, you know, to be in truth, if someone's just looking at an iPhone, they're not really looking at it for the cinematography anyways that are looking at it. you know they're probably on the subway looking at two minutes of it before they get to work or you know whatever situation so you want it to serve the cinematography to serve the story um you know there's there's two modern viewing trends well then there's the opposite side of it but i'll start with us there's two modern viewing trends that i don't get one of them is start stopping anything a girlfriend's very chill with it you know like oh we'll watch 40 minutes of the last of us and then we'll catch the last 20 and i'm like you what No. And then this is less of, this is more of a me thing, but obviously accessibility is wonderful. But captions, like habitually, you know, by default putting on captions. Because people argue that it's a sound mixing thing.

It's like, no, sounds been better than never. You just are using your televisions built in speakers. This is a you problem. You bought a 4K HDR 72 inch television and put no thought into the audio. That's on. Exactly. But, you know, whenever the captions are on, even if I want to be watching, it. I read. You know, it's the shiny. You can't help it. Can't help it. And I find myself just completely

ignoring the acting and stuff in favor of the text, which I don't know, for some films that might be okay. But in general, I don't get it. Yeah, we had a, a show of short film. And it was at a festival. And it was, captions were required for it. And it drove me fucking crazy. Because I was like, I'm not looking at the screen. I'm looking at. the captions well don't i mean unless but unless you have a disability or or right problem that's one that's something else entirely but you know but you don't but theaters make i know but theaters make like a granted i guess it's not every theater we're lucky in la we have like top to your theaters but i've seen them where people will have i don't even know how it works but

it doesn't it's like a retro reflective captioning system where they it doesn't you know it's not like having a screen on, but it's like it's something that plugs into the chair. And it just does, it's personal captions for whoever has here. Oh, that's cool. They're rad. I'm like, well, let's get, but I guess having like, they probably only have a handful of those on hand at any given theater and not like, right, if it's required for everyone. But still. Yeah. I can't imagine the whole theater needed. I don't. Luckily, I don't need them yet. So yeah. Dude, I used to shoot, uh, I know you used to be a photographer. I used to shoot events for Red Bull. So, This is in like the early 2000s, so this was all like EDM concerts in Arizona and stuff.

Oh, man. And this, this year's shot because, you know, the, this year would always fit. And I always had earplugs, but I'd leave them in my bag behind stage and then run out front and just forget. Right. You know, we didn't have like sling bags. So I just, my left ears cooked. The same with my eye from documentary days because it was the first day, day. of the Zakuido eyedice, which kept fogging up.

So the whole time I'm doing this and sun would bake in. And so you probably can't tell. Maybe again, this eyes drew beer than the other because, uh, you got the truck driver's in room. Yeah. Yeah. Got killed by the eyepiece. Good things we do.

Yeah. Luck, I mean, speaking of health, man, there's a lot like getting, I was just talking to, uh, uh, uh, Andy about this fucking, uh, custom insults. Oh yeah, I've had him for forever Oh, what a jam Yeah I needed him Back in my Pop Warner football days

I had to get him Oh really? So I could be the The smallest guy in the field But still stay on the field Right And then they helped a lot I still was small

But I could stay on the field that way I went to a really small high school And like my graduating class was like 20 people And um Wow Real small. But we did have a football team. And, you know, we only played like two other schools. And I, so everyone had to play like both sides of the ball. But so I was a safety. I'm 5-9. I stopped growing when I was like 15. 5-9-130. Now I'm 5-9, like 220. Like a complaint. Luckily, I don't look hell of fat, but it is a little bit of your gut. But luckily, a lot of it is muscle. Thank you. Allegiant strength training.

But I was back up centered. Quick plug for them. Hopefully they gave me free admission. You know what's funny is they started doing like web content, you know, like testimonials and stuff. And it was like after one of the workouts, one of the owners of the gym was like, hey man, you're you're a camera guy. Can you like help me with this?

So I had like one like COB light that I wasn't like some go docs thing. I wasn't using. I was like if you buy an umbrella for this or like a soft box, you can have my light. I'll give you a stand and I'll just show you basically what you need to do. Sure enough, they're on their Instagram now and they look decent. Like, he's doing a good job. The eye line's all fucked up.

But I was like, just bring him down here. We don't need to be over the top of the camera, you know. Baby steps. Yeah, but they look good. Audio's good too. It's really proud of me. Nice. But yeah, I was back up center, but I never played it except for once and it was terrifying.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh. That 1.30? No. That's not what you're supposed to be. Definitely. not even on a five-person football team.

Yeah, no, very bad. Oh, I'm just looking at notes now. But the one thing I, oh, fuck, no, is the act, well, you remember how this goes. I'm just going to remember everything as they come. Do it? But the, I was going to say, the other side of the equation of, like, audio and captions is now, after just watching Steve Eflin's HDR thing, I didn't know why everyone. was complaining about things being too dark.

Right. It's like it's HDR implementation. It's not even HDR is a thing. It's the implementation of it that's fucking everyone up. But everyone thinks that, you know, I bought an HD. I bought an LG. It should be good. Right.

It's like, man, I don't think any filmmaker has ever had to up until recently educate the audience on how to consume it. Right. Yeah. It's, it's, and is still fighting that battle and that would be consistent until well I don't think that's something

that'll ever get solved because television companies don't have any interest in telling people to turn features off right you know what I mean so you know maybe they'll all given a filmmaker mode that you can press a button

to do if you're in the know but I mean even if there's a button to press that it's still 90% of the people are not going to press that button. Well, and you'd wish that like, because I know, well, maybe you can correct me if I'm not right or if you even know, but I had heard that Netflix has like an implementation for film grain where they send the signal out clean and then in the app on the client's side, they add the grain after the fact so that that grain doesn't eat up the image bit rate for bit rate reasons, right? Yeah, I don't think that happened because we have Filgrin for Ransom Canyon. And I don't think that's the case with that. I think it's implemented in the output because, in fact, I know it's implemented into the output because I have some files, you know, that are.

That's awesome. That's a lot of legwork on Netflix side to do. Maybe they've done it as a test case for some. It might have been like a patent that they never implemented or something. I remember seeing a diagram, but I don't know. I never heard anything else from it. Yeah. I mean, it's entirely possible.

But you're right. That would eat up potentially processor stuff on the TV. Like how would the TV do it? Yeah, I don't know. But it would, yeah. My point was just going to be if they could do something like that, there should be a way to trigger a TV. Like when I, you know, I turn on the PlayStation and the. TV goes game mode like when you open up Netflix or whatever it should just trigger

filmmaker mode yeah that's a great idea don't don't if if they cared they would do it yeah yeah I you know so I uh before before getting the uh ransom Canyon though uh there was two things that I looked up that uh I saw one was greedy greedy greedy people looked cool oh yeah yeah that's a fun was but that but you have had to shoot that in two weeks four weeks no it was four fourish weeks it was a very it was a small movie very in a very short shoot um we shot in wilmington north carolina or north carolina um yeah it was i think we had 22 or 20 22 days maybe when i first signed on to the project it was more days and like of course cut a bunch of days off once i had signed on so that's that's that's

That's how it works and indie films. But yeah, it was a very short shoot. And Potsie Ponsorelli is an incredible director and fun. The cast was so fun. Yeah, you had some studs on there for sure. Yeah, and they're all hilarious. It was kind of like a dark crime. I don't know, say comedy, maybe a dromedy.

Right. But yeah, that was a fun shoot. The thing I wanted to bring up about that, was right after that I saw like a video you had just done for ProPoto. Which then, which I was like, did you get a sponsorship from Prophoto? And then the very next video was Aperture for Ransom Canyon. And it kind of encapsulated this idea that of a kind of a series of questions or an idea I wanted to float past you, which was like, yeah, prosumer gear on quote unquote bigger films. But also like is, is there?

anything that's you know what's what's to consumer because aperture started is you know good but you know even having bowens mount on a film set 15 years ago would have been like what are you doing that's a yeah that's a photo thing we don't do that yeah well i'm i'm non-denominational with my sure yeah yeah which is the funny thing because you should because it's light they don't see the fixture they see the result yeah exactly um you know i've always i've always been interested technologies and gear. I started off with a, when I was first shooting with a blog, if you remember blogs. And I would write about blog spot. Yeah, yeah. I would write about gear. And that there would be a way to sort of get companies to send me gear that I couldn't afford at the time. And then, you know,

yeah, exactly. And then send send it to me and I try it out and then write about it. And I met a lot of great people, companies that way. And Aperture was one of those companies that they started off with, you know, pro-sumer stuff, I would say, consumer, pro-sumer stuff. And I was, and I at, you know, when I first started using it, I was like, oh, this is actually, would look great on any set that's, there's nothing like it, you know, out there. And they were always innovating. And I, with Aperture, I love how they, you know, really just started making pro stuff. They listened to DPs. They listened to Gaffers. And just started building really great, great lights. And we used a ton of them on Ransom Canyon.

Prophoto is new to, they've always been the staple of still photography. They're the R.E. Still photography. Yeah. Just incredible high quality lights. And they reached out to me to sort of try their new stuff because they were doing a cinema line. And it's just so good and so precise. And they have all of their, all of their light shaping tools. which are incredible work for the Prophoto lights as well as Bowen's mount stuff.

So, and they're building a pipeline of really good lights as well. So I was happy to use it and try it out and promote it. Now, you know, they have some more stuff coming. That's great. But I have free flashes. Yeah. For me, the lighting is, I look at, is it have output. What's the quality of the light?

Does it have special use scenarios? And I always try, even if my gaffer hasn't used certain lights before, I try and bring them in, show him how I use it, and then see, try and integrate it into our workflow. Sometimes in the beginning, I have to force the case a little bit and be like, this is how you use this here. Most of the time, though, it's just they're enthusiastic and, or they already use it already. you know almost everyone's using some form of either aperture or nanlocks or something like that on the sets these days they're just too versatile and too high powered and too high quality need to and inexpensive and low power draw which is very important because that because that was kind of the thought or one of the thoughts about greedy people was like being a fast indie film which I had to and seen. I just saw the, you know, the stills and the whole thing. But it was just like this idea of like you've worked on kind of both sides of it. What does shooting a film like that look like from a technical standpoint? Like what kind of fixtures are you bringing in? Are you

able to expand the way you want? Or like, how are you staying fast and nimble on something like that? Yeah, I had a lot of LEDs that would everything went to the, um, we couldn't have a dimmer board per se. We had a iPad system. And everything just went to the iPad system. Because especially on a smaller budget shoe, you really need to move fast and you have to have a plan. But I'd like to change things on the fly as I see them, you know, as I'm inspired. So that means it has to be on an iPad system. And it allows you to really, if it's as simple as changing the output or the color, but it lets you to change your ideas quickly. and so that's that's that's essentially the system I would use on a smaller budget shoot

but it's also the same system that I use in a larger budget shoot it just I would just have more lights right you know a full dimmerboard system you know more people to up to demand the lights and so it's it's it's the same just scale is different I guess that's kind of what I'm getting at is like how like when when you have a bunch more lights What are the lights that are being stripped away? Because obviously you don't want to like get cheaper looking, but there's certain things that are nice to have. So like what are the kind of non-negotiables versus the nice to have?

You know, for me, lighting is all location dependent. So it starts in pre-production and I try and steer the director towards locations that work within our budget that we can handle. that I know I can make look good. And that's not always the case because, you know, certain, for example, in Wilmington area, Southport, where we're shooting, you know, there's very limited amount of locations that actually work. So you sometimes you just have to shoot the location, even if it doesn't fully work for your lighting package and try and make it work. But you try and steer the locations towards how can I light this in a way that looks, serves the story, that tells the story. And thirdly, in a beautiful way that, you know, vokes emotion or the feeling of the scene.

And so I try and guide that when I'm looking at location. I'm very involved in the locations. I'm not a DP that's like, just to give me any location, I'll make a look. I can look at a location and now, okay, this is going to look pretty good if I come through the window. If I, you know, and so obviously you need bigger lights when you're bouncing looking at a window. Um, so that's something to keep in mind, you know, higher output lets you balance and not blow out the windows in the background. Um, and that's, that's the biggest concern when I'm looking at a location, depending on our budget. Um, but, um, you know, you can do a lot with a little, um, you know, whether it's bouncing it, uh, you know, through reflectors or, um, you know, just simple andy on glass. You know, there's a lot of ways to tricks to, to really make it. Um, you know, work. Well, I've seen in a couple interviews you talking about the light bridge system, which I remember when they had first launched before Matthews bought them. The thing that everyone seemed to love the idea of, but when I talked to at least the original light bridge team, they're like, that's not really why we made it. But I was like, that's what everyone wants to use it for was the idea of like mounting like one COB to the bottom of the sea stand and putting like four reflectors kind of nested on top of it. So you could just hit like a bunch of different things in the room off of one thing.

Yeah, yeah. I do that sometimes. A lot of times I do try and use one reflector. The light bridges are great. Aaliyah from Hot Rod cameras has a new system out called the Betty boards, I believe, which are really nice quality of light reflected onto the face. It's got these dimples in it that really diffuse the light in a nice way. So there's a bunch of options out there for reflection.

Um, but I, so I'm, and I'm, and so does, um, um, uh, Dato. Dato has Oh, and I, in fact, I use Dato's mirror reflectors where you can kind of shape the quality. I like to hit background hits with that. Um, but, um, uh, I lost my train. I thought, what was I saying? Um, using one reflector. Yeah. Completely forgot what I'd say. Well, it's just, I don't see them a lot, but I, well, they've been out for so long, and you're right, I think Datto might have been the first one, but they've been out for so long and they're, they're, I think it must have been the Matthews purchase, but I've only really started to see them on productions, like, relatively recently. Oh, yeah.

Those reflectors versus like, I guess, but no one was just using like mirrors before. Obviously, shiny board. Yeah, but shame. I started using the, the, the, um, the reflectors. And I did a. a movie right after COVID and I had brought them with the jungle to me to use him in Puerto Rico and they got absolutely destroyed but you know it was nice I at my goal when I'm using reflectors I always like an imperfect path of the light to the subject I want to fuck the light up as much as possible sort of feels natural so it doesn't feel like a light source hitting hitting the subject so um you know I shoot it was whether it's shooting the branch of loruses bouncing it off of anything really you know I'm know, from Duveteen, not Duveteen, sorry, any sort of reflective surface. And so I like bouncing it off things through things and then just really breaking up the light to me that I find beauty in that. Yeah. Was it you who told me about bouncing off gray?

Possibly. I do that. I do that. I think I was just talked about you yesterday then. I was like, someone told me about bouncing off gray. It was just been sitting. But that actually brings up. I heard you use the imperfect path thing a lot.

And I was wondering if you could elucid the difference between an imperfect path and the dreaded multiple shadows. Yeah. Well, you know, even I occasionally do it. But I think multiple shadows are okay if it feels natural. But if it feels like a light source, if you have multiple light sources hitting one subject, and that can make it subconscious. To an audience that can, it doesn't feel correct because let's say it's the sunlight coming through and let's say that sunlight isn't bouncing off of something else and coming through the window.

It's a dead giveaway to, oh, there's a movie light on set. Whether the audience feels it or not, obviously as a DP, we notice these things. But you don't, I try not to do anything subconsciously. That's incorrect. The audience will take the audience out of the show, whatever they're watching. but sometimes it's unavoidable and in fact I think I I have multiple shadows in the background because you know and I justify it as oh yeah that light was hitting off the building

to the side and this one's coming straight through there's a justification for anything and if it's in the background no one's really going to notice I think but yeah multiple shadows drives me crazy when I just when I see that on someone's face when their nose is creating multiple shadows

and it's supposed to be one source of sunlight coming through. Now, if you're in, like, you know, a warehouse and, like, something else is happening, there's justification for that, but I try and avoid it. I like one key, if you know what I mean. Sure, sure. Well, and just if you know what I mean. This is not the 80s, sir. But no, this is great because this is the thing that made me think about this was the little

feature that you did with Aperture. Is that out? I didn't even know that's it. Yeah, I don't know when it came out, but I just saw it earlier today. But the, there's like a web page for it, which I found first. And then they're like, watch our video. And I was like, there's no video linked. I had to go search for it.

But the, the video, no, the video is, it's out. I think it looks like they meant to hyperlink it. And they just forgot. But it is on their YouTube. But in any case, in one of the stills, it's when, so I watched the first episode. of Fransom Canyon and then skipped through your episodes which were 2, 5, 6, 9 and 10? Yes.

Yeah, yeah. So I was just trying to make sure I had like a good, you know, just the case to look drastically changed halfway through or something. Did it? I don't think it did. But one of the frames they use is the one girl is standing there with a homeboy with a shirt off. Everyone takes their shirt off.

We love that. Yes. I was shirtless during the year. Yeah, skin bounce. So, but they highlight, they're like, notice the two window slashes. And I was like, why would we want to notice that? I was pointing it out as like, oh, that's what I did there. I didn't, I normally wouldn't do that, but I wanted to reach it in, you know, I wanted to reach in further.

And normally I wouldn't do that, but that was sort of like a cell phone, I think. Well, but no, but here's the thing, though, like they pointed it out before I found the video where you draw, you explain. But then immediately I was like, oh, well, it actually works because, yeah, what if there's a car parked outside? Yeah. And that was my justification. It was like it was hitting the background. I actually don't care because that light could have bounced in a normal situation that could have bounced from anywhere. Could have bounced from a car.

Could have bounced from a building across the street. Could have bounced from a horse holding a mirror that it was right, you know. Never know on Ransop Canyon. Yeah. Well, and the one key thing brings up another thought I had, which was like, for a Western, I know you built a big ass lookbook for this, but for any Western, or I should, this is obviously isn't a Western, but like, it's Westernish, Western adjacent. Yeah. It's like, it feels like you did this, but you can help fill it out. It's like the sun is everything. Everything is the sun. There's no other lights. If they are, they're. irrelevant. There's the sun and everything is that. And, uh, but I did notice that like everything

it, uh, technically big soft source, big soft key. Yeah. Yeah. Um, except for the outside stuff. Well, not all of it. There's some bounce out there that's very, but I was wondering if you could kind of walk me through like the approach to the show. Yeah. I think especially for this show. Normally I wouldn't just do a big soft key for, on a show for everything. Um, but I think one of the, um, mandates for the show is that from April, the April player, the showrunner is like, she wanted to feel like people wanted it, should want to move to Ransom Canyon. Everyone should look beautiful. Everyone should, you know, show off their sexiness, you know, not her words, but like, so everyone is sexy in the show, let's be honest. Right. Including my crew. Yeah. But, you know, so one of the ways I,

with Amanda Marsalis the director and I was like we just wanted a big beautiful soft source that's really a way to sort of accentuate who these characters are you know and the locations really lent themselves

to that being able to do that whether it's Keith Neely who built the sets who led us sort of these big open spaces that we could bring in these big soft sources so it was a way to really it was our answer to make everyone and everything beautiful at well now on a show like ozark i'm not doing a big

soft source on every on every shot you know that the the lighting of the locations dictates a lot of time what what the source will be i will have something big and soft for keys a lot of times but it you know could be just a tube overhead or it could be you know just being lit by you know a practical um so it really depends on the content of the show and how i how i like in fact if you look at all my all my work is pretty different all my shows are very different so um you know on special op lioness so a lot of it is from practicals i mean made to feel like it's from practicals they're actually not i had i have lights hidden everywhere in the ceilings or um but you know you want it you want it to feel like originated from practical or from yeah well and it

it didn't even, especially in that first episode, it didn't even really occur to me that you were doing that until I had seen it. Obviously, I'm watching it like with a critical eye. I'm not just letting you wash over me like I would with me. But it took about halfway through before I was like, wait a second. You know, just because especially there's a lot of outside stuff. And that's just what appears to be just the sun playing. Like it didn't look like you guys were modifying that at all. No, we were a lot. Oh, really? Yeah, well done. Thank you. yeah a lot of the sun I mean it depends on the situation but a lot of it some of it's back edge there are a handful of times yes that it would just be the sun but at least one side of it

was heavily you know lit and you know overhead diffusion or you know negatives just to kind of block off the direct sun and just let a you know big soft source hit him so it just depends I did see a few in later episodes of the few times

you got bit by overcast oh yeah yeah well we started this the show is supposed to be this beautiful texas summer and we started shooting in the dead of winter in new mexico so you know you know the whole first two episodes and we save some stuff for later on um but a lot of that was you know winter that we had to make look like summer and and bright and warm so yeah how do you do that um it depends you know a lot of times it is taking that over headlight out and you bring that the soft sun source through with big lights um and then a lot of you know vFX puts a lot of green in because a lot of it was not you know not green um so you know

that helps the green helps sell it um but we we did had a lot overcast days that we had to deal and the new mexico weather's changing all the time so we had to figure out you know how to fix that yeah because it yeah it was it was the only reason i noticed was because of the absence of obvious sun you know once i started to catch the formula i was like oh yeah fuck by weather there's only there's only so much you could do at a certain point if it's not sunny and it's supposed to be sunny yeah not that it looks bad obviously i didn't but it's it's it's one of those things just i the thing that sucks is like it's when stuff like that happens is when i want to dig in the most because that's oftentimes the most instructive, you know, when you

ended a perfect scene, it's like seasoned food. You know, you have a perfect steak. It's like, we just put salt on it. What do you want? I didn't, you know, right. Yeah, it's, it's a good thing to know, because it's a fine line of like, what do you do when the situation of the environment isn't conducive to what the story is. And that's when budget helps. That's when having a big grip department with tools helps con you know you know lulls with 20 buys of negative or diffusion um you know or or in condors and all of those things um in big hm i mean that's when you're breaking those out a lot of times outdoors for these um you know but you're also doing one is sunny out too to to so you can shoot all day you know shaping blocking the light shaping the light um you know

the grip side is incredibly important for that yeah i did i did notice a few of the uh night shots were ozark adjacent also the the colorist kind of i felt like just like you a nod yeah well didn't not only give me not tim stepping who is incredible colors also color ozarks okay perfect yeah then i saw his i saw his hand then yeah some of that also to your point he's incredible oh i mean i feel like half the people that were like the cinematography is ozarks incredible i'm like i think we need look at the colorist a little. Oh, Tim, Tim, Tim is, a lot of that is, Tim developed that look in the beginning. And then, you know, if you look at Ozark, the four seasons, it's actually changed quite a bit over the four seasons.

So he helped really evolve that, that look. You had a camera change there, too, though, right? Yeah, the first season, uh, was the, the Panasonic, um, barricam. Veracam. And then, I think season two was, went to the Venice. and that we stayed on the Venice for I believe it's easy to that started in the Venice

and we stayed on the Venice all the way through dude right now I was just looking yesterday out of curiosity because I have a C-500 and a C-70 and I'm starting to note like as I'm getting nicer and nicer gigs I'm starting to notice the difference

between me getting hired and me not getting hired at my level is like that man owns a Venice and so I was whatever you know and I and I was always the person who's like the camera will not get you the job or if it does it's not going to get you the follow up job if you suck you know so i was always very like cautious about dropping a bunch of you can get a venice one on eBay for like 16 grand yeah and honestly the venice one

when the venice two came out i was mixing those together a lot so yeah venice one's a great camera still yeah and and then like Alexa classics are like four you can get an f55 for three grand. Wow. And I was kind of looking at that, but no one's going to, if you're getting a camera for a like owner operator thing, I actually put a poll, let's see what people say on the poll on the screen. What do you think that, what do you think the most in-demand owner operator camera is?

Yeah, Alexa 35. Oh, I didn't use that as, I didn't use that as an option. I put mini, mini LF, Venice and Raptor. And I would, you should add the Alexa 35 to that. Because I'm pretty sure that's become the... Yeah, I would... Because right now, LF is winning by a hefty amount, so I would guess... So do a follow-up, do LF versus...

35. Yeah. And that has a lot to do with lenses. Not everyone wants to shoot full frame. And there's so many lenses you can use if you use the Alexa 35. So I personally love the Venice just because of the one-stop NDs and the dual ISO. So, but Alexa 35 is a great camera. We shot part of Lionists with it, Special Opsi Linus.

Yeah. Well, yeah, I just spoke to the product manager for the 35. And the way that they approach the way they make cameras is really simple, but like in a good way. They're like, well, standards have changed. Do we want people to be able to use this for the next 15 years? So we just kind of overshoot the standards that are now. And then we don't see people having more than 20 stops of dynamic. range in the future so

it's great for the moment now yeah yeah but it is yeah what was I going to say at before that oh the thing about practicals not playing as practicals it right at the beginning

Josh Dumel's like answering a phone oh yeah because it's like kid dies or whatever and he turns on the light kid dies or whatever whatever it was yeah and the turns on the light and I was just like spoiler for the first 30 second solution for the series.

His kid dies. Tagline, Josh Gimel's hot. Minka Kelly's hot. Kid, but it turns on a light and it's just not blasting him in the face and I was like, I would like to know what that was. And I'm going to guess Infinity Bar. Probably in a soft box.

Yeah. Because you were using those pretty liberally, huh? Yeah, yeah. I had some, I actually had some softbox made for the infinity bars so really at the time because I don't think they had the ones they had I wanted a deeper you know the infinity bar uh soft box that comes with this kind of shallow and I wanted a deeper pull so um we had some made for it and um did you end up using those because you had like a relationship with them or like those as opposed to the astere tubes which most people we use we use both no i had a i had my own infinity bars and then we had we had some from

aperture um and i believe we also got a set of misters you know using so many tubes on set that we would just use them interchangeably um it's all going to the same dimmer board so um i wanted to use a lot of the aperture infinity bars because i i had them and they were giving us them to used and I thought they were great. So we're really testing them out. Yeah, I'm sure the line producer's happy when you're like, oh, just get to use them.

Sure. You don't get to. You know, but one photo I saw. It was a secret. Lime producers are never happy. Dude, I trust me. I'm starting to learn that. Also, I was just talking about this with Andy, but the thing that I had to learn, speaking of lessons,

was not letting the director, or not the director, but not letting like the producers who are telling me I need to take a haircut on my rate and that this is a low budget thing dictate me

trying to help them me as meaning like not asking for stuff that I think would help us because I'm trying to save the budget yes you have to exactly they're always going to ask like I don't want to say complain

about the you know the budget it's always not going to be enough um so you know go within your means to get what you need um but it's not on it's not on you to to you know find the free free lights to help out i mean depending on the production of it's for for a friend sure you know or a project you believe in but um that's how it was a great easy rick i was like i don't want to you know which for the no if it saves your back that's a whole another thing. I had a full Ronan with the ring for two days straight and I just, yeah, killed myself. Yeah, you need, you need to save your body. But yeah, you need to get what you need to get,

but it's not up to you to, you know, to save their budget. They should have, they should, the project dictates what you need for, for it. And you should be able to get that within reason. So, yeah. Well, and in the same way that they're telling you what, they need, meaning what's in the budget, and you'd be able to say what you need, and then the two of you figure it out. Yeah. Self-limiting. Exactly.

They like me more. The best line producers work with you to figure out how to get what you need. If they're telling you, this is what we have, and this is what you're going to get, that's not a collaboration, and that's, frankly, it's not somebody you want to work with, again, not that it's a choice a lot of times. but the best line producers you work with them and say okay

this is our budget maybe if we get a little bit more we can afford these there's always a push and pull if we get a little bit more maybe we can afford these things whether it's camera whether it's lights

and I've been fortunate to work with some good line producers on these shows that you know they tell me what they can afford they tell me how much like if they could get a little bit more and I say oh well if we can do this

I can find this you know and it's working with the gafford or you know a camera team to do that as well and well luckily it's important to find help even a lot of them are combative combative at first so um helping them on helping them understand that you're on their side for the sake of the show not for your own self-interest is very important and helping because frankly they work with a lot of dPs that are really like fuck you i want this go figure it out because it works the other way too too. So I try not to do that. I'm sure at some points I do, but I want them to work with me because there's no point of being combative on a show. It doesn't help anyone. And if they're interested in the quality of the show, which again, some of them are, some of them aren't. They will help you. Yeah. Well, and I'm sure you're an excellent communicator because otherwise you wouldn't have the career you have. But I feel like that also helps when you're able to explain why.

something is necessary versus just saying like, you know, just trust me. Yeah, trust me. It doesn't work. No one trusts anyone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, communicating well, communicating good. Yeah, doing good communication good is good. Yes.

But that goes to all departments, you know, working with a production designer to get them to build the set in the best way to light, you know, add lights or. you know, working with the set dressers and to get the right practicals. All that's communication is important and no one wants to be told what to do. I just wanted to collaborate.

Yeah. Somewhat related that actually was something I was thinking of, which is I try to keep my ear to the ground a little bit of just what audience trends are. And there seems to, especially in the, I think of myself as an educator to a degree. And so you got to

Yeah. What are, what are students thinking about? And one of them is this idea of that there is a Netflix look or an A24 look, which blows my mind because I'm like, they're a distributor, right? Like, yeah, but I was wondering if you could speak to the idea of there being a Netflix look or what maybe if it's not dictated, which I can't imagine it is, but if it is, right, what forces might make people feel that way? Yeah, I mean, I don't feel like there's a Netflix looks that Netflix themselves are certainly involved in the production. At least they were in this production. And I think because, you know, this show reached a certain target audience that they wanted to hit. So and to be fair, you know, both Amanda and I came from Ozark, which is a very dark, you know, moody show, which no one wanted the show to be. So there was some checking in, I'd say, about the look. the first, you know, week or two about is it going to be too dark? Is it going to be, you know, warm enough? Is it going to be bright enough? You know, all of the things, is it going to be lush enough? And they eventually, you know, their fears were cited. Not that there were fears, but just questions, you know. So there are involved. I think it also depends on the show, too, how involved they are. But to say there's a Netflix look, I don't think there is. I think for 824, I mean, I think because of all their shows are somewhat different,

but you see a lot of sort of not muddier, but I feel like 824 is called a certain look more frequently than the Netflix look would be just because it's more independent. And they've, I don't, but I doubt that they, I've never worked for 824, so I don't know, but I doubt that they tell them, this is the 824 look. I would be very surprised. Right. And well, and my thinking is kind of a, it's almost like a misnomer because it's not that A24 has a look.

It's that A24 is picking scripts. Yes. That has similar, not vibe necessarily, but those looks end up being similar, not that that's what they're asking for. Because like Zola doesn't look anything like death of a unicorn or uncut gems or anything. Right. Exactly. You said it better than me.

I would say they just have a more independent and they hire more independent, you know, directors, DPs that have diverging looks. But through that, maybe people feel there's a uniformity. But I don't think so. I think they look, the stuff looks great. Yeah. Well, and also I think maybe Netflix might just be the kind of 800 pound gorilla because that people are pointing to only because the baseline quality for anything is super high, right? So if you have a low budget show or feature or whatever, even not that anyone's doing the bare minimum, but even if you did do the bare minimum, it still looks really good. so I think if you see a lot of like lower budget stuff in a row

and Netflix was not necessarily producing them all but you would watch it on Netflix because they were the big game in the mainstream then you get this idea that that's again the same thing that the distributor not the actual production at least that's my theory yeah I agree with your theory yeah the what do you I normally ask this at the beginning but what have you been enjoying watching oh man I love the studio it gives me

I laugh and I chauced me heavy, heavy anxiety at the same time. I think it's great. And I love how it's shot, I think. It's fucking brilliant. What else have I been watching? What else is on? I don't even remember. My brain just, it all sort of blend.

Oh, Andor is absolutely incredible. I love Andor so much. I hope I'm getting the DPs. It's still in emails, but we're right there. I'm sure you will. But they're doing incredible work. And it's, I think, believe it's different DPs from the person. Adriotta Goldman was the first one.

Yeah. And he's, I mean, he's fantastic. But I think it's, it looks incredible this season as well. So Tony Gilroy doesn't miss. No. I just rewatched Michael Clayton the other day. And I'm like, this. Michael, Biden's incredible.

Yeah. It's one of the best movies ever made. And it's like, you'll only see the post. It's distributed ever. You can watch it on any platform. And I feel like. Like it's one of those movies. You're like, no, I've seen that.

Can you watch it again? Yes. I've seen a multiple. Ellswood, I believe, shot that. Oh, I believe so. Could be wrong. But yeah, incredible. But yeah, mostly watching.

I mean, I see everything. And I learn. I think one important thing is to, for me, anyway, it helps is I watch everything, whether I think it's going to be good or bad, as long as it's not a romantic comedy. And then just to learn from it because I see how I don't want to do things and I see how I do want to do things. And you can be surprised. I've been surprised by a bunch of movies.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I watched when I was incredibly surprised was it was Black Doves, which I thought was awesome. And I had no idea what it was going into it. And I thought it was just smart and funny. I'll have to check that out. Yeah, me and my sister will very often just because we have the AMCA. list just book each other tickets and it's like show up or don't but we like don't watch

trailers can't remember what we went to go see why do you not watch the trailer if they play like an hour of trailers before every that's when we're grabbing drinks at the restaurant next to the uh looms but smart well because for amc it's all it's 20 minutes right like it's a it's a known value so we just you know but um i do love trailers i do like watching trailers but i try not to if I'm going to go see a movie that just shows up in my calendar like I tried to just go in super cold because the marketing department very often can they show everything it's they show the entire plot

of the movie it's which is different department man they're not filmmakers like I can't hold them accountable for whoever's over their neck telling them they need to you know but um but I can't remember me and Natalie said my sisters in Natalie we sat down for something and she had booked the ticket

I leaned over. I was like, what's this about? She goes, no idea. And we're like, great. And I remember we both loved it. And I think, too, when you go in with no expectations, you end up just giving yourself to the film more so than when you sit there, like, all right, time to impress me, thunderbolts or, you know, whatever it is. Yeah, exactly. And or is definitely up there for me. What else did I have? I mean, I got to let you go here. It's like, oh, I was looking at this. This is a stupid joke I had written here. I was like, you know, I'm a, a hockey fan. I was looking at your website and the NHL spots. Yeah, I was like really, really cool. And then you ruined it with Brad Marchand. Wow. You just got to watch it. I'm from Boston. I know you are. Although rest in peace, Brad Marchant. I mean, Brad Marchand was fucking hilarious. I've heard he's the best guy. I'm like, why can't you do that on the ice? Yeah. Why can't you be the best guy on the ice? Because you're a pain in my dick every time you skate. Well, sometimes he is the best guy at ice.

And he's also the funniest guy in the eyes. He didn't he lick someone's ear once? Oh, yeah, he's always doing. It's like him and Joe Thornton, but I'm a Sharks fan. So I'll accept Joe like, you know, doing a lot of that and stuff, which also, sorry. Sorry, not a good trade. No, it's fantastic for us. Yeah.

But that was a fun series. We actually, and that's another example of, you know, budget. The first one we did, Ritesh Gipta, as the director. And it was just a low budget promo that we were doing for the NHL. And I literally, I brought my key grip, who Don Reynolds, who is normally my key grip, but he gaffed and key grip. So it was just me and him for the lighting grip crew. And then Lorenzo, my AC, and read my operator and a DIT. And that's all we had.

And I was putting lights up with Don, myself. We had each player for like 20 minutes, you know, in seven different locations throughout the Golden Knights NHL facility. And it was fun, just sort of just doing that all on my own again for the, you know, not on my own with just a few guys. About a my-sized group. Yeah, small group. And sort of, you know, we were controlling the lights off an iPhone.

their aperture lights um you know and then they loved it it did incredibly well and so they you know they did a whole series of them um which we had a slightly bigger budget but not much you know we had i wasn't putting up lights myself anymore but like it wasn't a big crew and we didn't have much time and we were you know four or five different cities and again 15 minutes with each but to each hockey players so um but i i love those kind of comedy shoots where it's they're fun the players are having fun everyone's enjoying it you know well it makes it better especially in a commercial yeah and i also feel like hockey players uniquely because hockey is such a small sport in comparison to the other three major sports that they they're allowed to they're not so

wooden usually yeah they're down they're more kids that are on the draft dog i'm pretty sure two of them were high yesterday. They're good time, but, um, or they're, or they're 12. Yeah, exactly. But the, uh, like, I remember those sports center commercials with like Ovi, you know, it was like a Russian spy and stuff. I'm like, these are great. You would never see like, show Aotani is not going to make some like suggested like

Japanese, you know, slight. Right. He's worth too much, you know. Yeah. I will tell you a funny story that I haven't told anyone live. Sure. I was talking to Marshand, and I was telling him how I grew up in Boston. I asked him if he went to the old Boston Garden, which was this great old stadium.

That was before it was TD Garden? Yeah, yeah. I think they tore it down like late 90s, early 90s. So I grew up, season tickets, going to all the games, and I asked him if he had ever been there. He's like, no, did you watch Bobby Orr play? and I just sort of for those of you don't know Bobby Orres retired in the 60s

maybe 70s or early 70s and I just sort of looked at him and he was like yeah maybe that's a little after your time before your time I can't tell me he was fucking with me if he was serious I'm pretty sure we're serious oh no I would hope he would be fucking with you because I like

he's quick I mean I've been you know when now that biz is doing what is it like tn t or whatever you know um with with uh gretzky which is insane but like they'll just be chirping each other live like marshan will be like in the penalty box and they're just yelling at each i remember one he uh biz was like um hey brad uh thanks for coming on the show how much time does it take for you to get the sunscreen to the back of your head it's just god damn like oh he's playing that's good hockey is an excellent Accessible sport.

Yeah. What else? Oh, all right. Final two. One thing I did actually want to ask you about, it's not necessarily specific to this show, but it's something that I think I saw, and I see it everywhere.

And so I wanted to know, do you guys film in slow-mo just in case? For television? Yeah, well, for a lot of shows, and I feel like movies, I can never tell if people are adjusting the shutter for a reason or if it was originally shot in slow-mo and then in the edit they're like,

you know what, just play that in moral speed. So what we'll do, not for most things now, but if it's a scene where we think we might want to use, the motion obviously there's no dialogue involved, we'll shoot it in either. Derrida, it's a 24 frame, so we'll do 48, 96, I believe math is correct. Yep.

And then that's an easier interpolation to bring it back down to 24 frames. So, yes, for certain things. But that's why you'll notice if it's in 24 frames, obviously the shutter will be different than a normal 24 frames.

So it feels a little more staccato when they take it back to 24. But as a rule, no. Only if, you know, there's very few shots, I think, that we were going to do slow-mo in the show. And I actually didn't, I didn't notice, I didn't notice if they brought it back to 24, but, yeah, it could have literally just been the, when I was skipping through, like, the one I happened to land on. Right. But we will, we will keep in mind if they do not want to use slow-mo, you know, bring it back. Because I, the other reason I ask is because I've been, I've been doing that, like, just shooting a lot of stuff.

up at 24, especially like B roll or whatever. And I'm like, am I, am I kissing off the editor? Is this like, is this pretty normal? Well, I think if you're doing a commercial, a lot of times I will shoot a lot of commercial at 48 or at least at 48 if there's no dialogue, just because having that, you know, slow motion helps a lot of times with commercials. Yeah. But in narrative, not so much. Right.

Well, and for commercial, I imagine, too, even if it's not just like making it look cool, but just being able to adjust time, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's good to know. Well, all right, final question was we're back from where we started, which is only because I'm thinking about it. What should I, what is the error, courts? I have to actually apologize. I pronounced in the first episode, I know I pronounced your name corrects.

That's not right. It's courts. Everyone does it, so I don't correct them. All right. Well, I'm doing it right in this one. and for the future, but morning routine, night routine. Oh, in life or while I'm shooting? Yeah, both, I suppose.

Which is life too, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, what I aspire to is to wake up, sleep while, you know, sometimes I have trouble sleeping. It's, you know, it's genetic. But if I sleep, if I've slept well, I aspire to wake up, meditate for 15 or 20 minutes. We talked earlier about, I think, the importance of meditation, you know, during, during the, while you're shooting or any, anytime, really, and how it resets you, it balances you, because you got to do things for yourself so that you can show up for other people on set and be that, you know, calming presence on set. And, you know, at times I would try and go outside just get some sunlight for like a little bit or I actually, have these light glasses that I put on just to get the sun rays coming in.

They're, you know, it helps. Yeah, well, they're actually just daylight balance, like a strong daylight balance. It just kind of goes into your pupils. It just sort of kind of resets your rhythm. And then maybe like 10 to 15 minutes of like a quick workout just to get everything going. And then eating and then I'm on my day. And then a night, again, try for 15 minute meditation. I'm trying, you know, not do screens for at least an hour or so, or longer before bed, read.

And then, you know, whatever it takes to get to sleep, however many pills it takes. Yeah. That's what I'll do. Yeah. But develop your routines especially, it's a good question because especially when you're shooting where you have no time. And all you want to do is come home and sit, you know, wake up and just go. then sit and on couch and watch TV when you have them because you have no energy. Developing those routines before you get to set so that you have, it's muscle memory in a way,

I think is very important. And, you know, I talk a lot about doing things for yourself and mental health and getting that stuff right, whether it's therapy, meditation or all of those things, I think is really important. Everyone should do it. Well, I certainly will use this as assigned. especially after talking about it a ton yesterday and today.

It's a sign. I just got to start with the routine and go for it. And once you start to be routine, it's become second nature and you don't think about, oh, fuck, I have to sit with my eyes closed for 20 minutes today. It helps you.

You need it. And I think it's important. Yeah. Well, I appreciate that. And also coming and chilling for an hour. Sure. Thanks for having me. It's great. Yeah, man.

Frame and Reference is an Albot production, produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so by going to frame and refpod.com and clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated. And as always, thanks for listening. Thank you.