Frame & Reference Podcast - 195: "Sirens" Cinematographer Gregory Middleton, ASC CSC

Episode Date: June 19, 2025

Today Greg Middleton returns to chat about his work on Sirens! If you listened to our last chat you'll know we went in to triple overtime so this time we kept it lean but still got all the good stuff in so I'm sure you're gonna love it.Enjoy!► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠F&R Online ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Support F&R⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Watch on YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Produced by Kenny McMillan► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Hello, and welcome to this, episode 195 of Frame and Reference. You're about to drop into a conversation between me, Kenny McMillan, my guest, Gregory Middleton, ASC-C-C-S-C-DP of Sirens. Enjoy. what do you do when you're just like sitting around though as a deep because i'm at like if i don't i'm not even at your level and if i don't work for like two days i'm like i think uh i might uh have to become a bartender again or you know like i don't get excited to start one now it's time to watch movies yeah it's interesting because it that's uh i've always struggle a bit sometimes you know getting inspired during those times sometimes it's

kind of like sometimes it's it's projects can be very intense and it's nice to have a short break afters but does you do keep walking using the sort of creative engine that you're uh developing especially if i'm especially if i've been doing stuff where i feel like i'm making some like personal progress and developing any you know meager talent that i have or anything like that it's like you kind of want to it's a kind of job i can't it can do it only be parts of on my own i could take still photographs do lighting tests things like that but right uh that's like being in former you can't really practice yeah it's really if you can do it but it's way better with a band you know in the same way it's way better with with a script and with a with a collaborator so um had some short films things like that

i try and i try keep creatively busy i got dabble in writing some stuff sometimes uh but it's it's a it's a bit of a strange one to get the inspiration because you think else i think i'll go and see every movie ever made that i haven't you know seen last of a while but sometimes you kind of the run of that and jeep's that because you kind of need both things going on sometimes but it's a bit of a struggle it was a strange time too being just after the pandemic and it was moon night was an incredibly arduous experience in terms of like physically and long days i worked 17 days in a row and i was ready for a break and then uh you know and then we had the surgery and of course you had the strike so so it was like that was very interesting and then so we had a

it was a bit better up and down a couple of years where you know things were um i'd be going very well. I had a couple of interviews for some bigger projects that I was really excited about, which was great to be interviewed for and great to be considered for them. It didn't, a couple that I didn't get. And then, so this is that time. It's kind of like a lot of time kind of on the,

what's the sports analogy? You're kind of on the bench, you know, hoping to get put in the game. And it can feel a bit like that. It can feel a bit like your freelancer, you're ever going to work again sometimes at our level. And I remember hearing Roger Deacon's talking about the same thing sometimes. You know, it's like, oh, well, they think of me again? Because after

ripped it up for a few months, you think, well, that's it. I guess it was all a sham. I guess no one's going to hire me again. So, well, but even at his level, I feel like one thing that seems to happen to a lot of people, not just in cinematography land, but across any creative field is you get pigeonholed real fast. Yeah. You know, but he'd be like, oh, he's, you know, obviously he did blade runner, but he'll be like, Oh, he's the sort of simpler, maybe Western guy.

You know, we're not going to hire him for, for Blinken because he only does. No. He's, yeah, he might not be using like a lot of new technology, for example, even though one of my favorite scenes in 2049 is in that is in the, the, the casino ballroom thing with the Elvis, the Elvis AI thing playing. And that's such a great use of like, again, it's like, it's a light and dark. you know play on imagery to like for tension everything else but also it's hilarious because of the nature

of the biggest of it all and the color and it's it's it's exquisitely done and you know so it's like he doesn't want to use modern stuff but you know he will definitely favor a ton of light bulb over something LED but yeah it's yeah it's interesting it's it's yeah it's been a very interesting few years and now it's been by busy the last couple years so it's great yeah the the conversations I keep having

with with this is like I've been interviewing a lot of BSC members recently and they're all like, oh, yeah, like being in the UK is, uh, is awesome. They're just all the works over here. And I'm like, you know, like, yeah, it's, it's, yeah, I mean, I think I'm not it's, it's, it's definitely busy here with the bigger projects for sure. I mean, it's, there's a bit definitely like a big correction after COVID. Like, I mean, it was kind of slow everywhere after while because all the streamers seem to like overspent and trying to sort of be able to want to do them out business type of thing. And, I mean, the amount of money they spent on Moon Night and stuff like that.

They're not going to do that again on that many shows. Obviously, Disney Marvels, like, they realize that that's not something that makes sense. So we want to, they're working our way around making something more like a TV series, less like a massive thing. And, you know, I'm working on an HBO project right now for DC lanterns. I'm doing two episodes of that. And that's a fairly big, that's a fairly big show.

You know, they're not, but HBO isn't making 10 of them, you know what I mean? They're going to, they're going to make a few, you know, things like that it's um so that the volume of production after after coven was massive and it was so many big shows it really set this bar of like like the employment level was so high because the projects were so labor intensive and it's such large crees i think it's created so it's a feeling of like this is out of the new normal but you know and that adjusted quickly after strike too well and it brings up two thoughts one is like when i graduated college and started working towards getting into the film industry

that was pre streaming boom and I think just personally I've been noticing like I just need to recalibrate my expectations to that and because especially it's easy to be online

and commiserate with other people who are out of work and be like oh the world is ending you know none of us are ever going to work again look how terrible this is it's like it's probably at the same levels it was in 2012

it's just yeah it's a super room was huge it was long it was long and it's also like there's I mean I think we talked about this for the first time we met when we talked about like the early films I'd done like I didn't realize that the mid early mid 90s was like a really a incredibly fortuitous time to make some independent films like my first films as a cinematographer had a chance to go out into festivals I got out there now the space is crowded to a different degree like the whole that mechanism doesn't exist anymore because that boom of that type of exposure for those types of films it doesn't exist the same way it's a different thing may exist and the business is way different like the number in the pad producers is like so small now, all the, you know, all the companies have all incorporated that like, it's just changing things a lot of how things may, I don't know, at the time you don't really, you think this is how the world is, right? You think it's kind of static, right? You think this is just, it'll continue as you move up, but things go through a lot

of cycles. I mean, there's, we're using a lot of like newer, you know, brand new technology, but the LED lighting's been like obviously changed a lot and not so a while. Like, remember, I mean, I was going through some old things with, um, the, the gaffer on the project I'm working on now, but some other stuff went back in the day when I've worked on the killing when it was a keynote tubes, right? We had keynote flows.

We're shooting in the rain. It's cold. You've got to warm them up. We've got to make sure they're on long enough so they change color and all this things they can remember to do when you're shooting. We couldn't dim them. Some had like high and low setting or

until we put a couple tubes with ND gel on them. So we had a couple that were half stopped out. We just swap the tubes out and things like that. All these little tricks to try to do things. Now it's like an iPad comes out and go down 1% add two percent add two points of green uh to tubes and which is creates incredible facility to be faster and and have more precise control over things uh and now the latest thing now is like these you know LEDs you get to where there's a very powerful LEDs can have are coming out

we've got a 5k nanlux that's like it's almost rather than 9k hoi i mean those those those ari maxes are done like that's like i mean you i put four that but two of the two of them together together, stacked each other. And it was the price in 18K. And I could control it completely from the board. And it was absolutely amazing. And also the power that you're drawing is so that it's fights. It's like, you know, it's 4,000 watts or 4,000 watts compared to, you know, 18 or 20,000 watts. Yeah. I was talking to Eric Quartz the other day about was it, Ransom Canyon. And then he was saying that he was using all these like aperture. XT25s or whatever instead of instead of 5Ks I believe Yeah yeah yeah outside you know and it's just crazy because it for the longest time It's always it's always been oh

We can use LEDs for everything except for when we need A fake something really really great Yeah it's always like and that's over now yeah that's over now Yeah yeah and we have remote one too this The Felix lighting I just met the owner of Felix actually They're in Canada visit and um where the I think there's uh does it do they make the K40 which is like like a square it's like a in sort of sectional uh lens blocks of four of them but it's up but it's

remote so you can put on a lift and you can control you can pan it around do everything with it i mean that saves putting people we don't put i haven't put anyone in the condor in this show right but we can still put moving lights up there and things like that that now i power like that you can put um yeah that that kind of stuff very it's very exciting well and it's one of those things too i when you're talking about like uh the 90s and stuff i was thinking about how i took like a whole produce like a little side film school in San Francisco just for production like producing because I didn't know I was just trying to learn everything I didn't know anything and uh he kept telling us about how um oh you're going to need to know how to navigate these film buying things

where you all go to hotels they take all the beds out of the rooms and they put to you show everyone your yeah yeah yeah yeah it's like really important the the afm yeah no And then the same thing with, like, lighting technology is like, like you're saying with the keynoes, like if you were newer and you didn't know, maybe you skipped, you know, you went straight to being BP for some reason instead of working. Yeah, whatever. Then you look like an amateur now. As long as you know the concepts, all that, all those stumbling blocks are kind of removed. So you can get to the creativity faster, which is probably good and bad. Well, yeah, it's sort of like it creates, sort of getting off topic right?

I won't talk about this how we wander off. But just the, but the speed of, go for it. The, well, because the thing is like I was just speaking to, um, uh, just because like Jeff's Gaffer on the pressure coming on now and, uh, and both Bill the Gaffron sirens, the project we'll talk about in a few minutes, like the, the ability to fine tune things, you know, kind of on the fly, especially on them to work on like a, uh, mini series or more like a series based thing is I can fine tune things to a level. And I could do it concurrently while things are not going on.

Because on a movie, I might have time, like, everyone's gone on the set. I can light the scene properly, not how we want, do everything that's all quiet. I mean, that kind of method of working can work on a longer schedule. But on the pace right now, we're still shooting four or five days, four five pages a day or with the number of sets we're doing and moving around, it's a lot of work to do. But now if I get everything up, I can kind of fine-tune certain things and doing very quickly, right? We have between comm systems and Wi-Fi. a dimmer control like it's i can put things where i place like okay if the actors take a few minutes i

can fine-tune things while they're coming in i can on the first on the little camera so the lineup whoever would have word however we're working on the particular show i can really finesse things and do it right and not have to sit there and go walk in there and change a gel on a keynote and oh crap or just you know find something else so it allows for some really precise control in a limit of time and also quietly too because we're on cons and we're moving up briefly it's it's there's a lot of benefits to it is um you can definitely you can your only limit is how quickly you can think and how fast your dimerboard operator is how technically proficient your crew is uh if you're very proficient it's amazing the changes you can make and the stuff you can do

uh but it's also exciting because sometimes it's like you get inspired you see an actress down you're like oh boy i think the highlights the wrong color i think i need to go about to cool the eye lot off because i just seeing how their eyes come to life i could shift the light up got low into something that will bring their eyes out more and i can just do it and I can test it and say, and this is maybe an actor I haven't seen a lot. So if it's on a show where you've been shooting a while, you have to know their faces, you know what to do. But it's like, this is my first scene with, um, with somebody this that's weekends. I haven't really done a bit closer, but this, I didn't think this would work out that.

But now I know, I know to try it. And once I see them, I can do it and then make it like that. And it makes a big difference. Yeah, you know, uh, not that we need to jump into the project because I do actually like just chatter up. But you got some relatively large names on the side. sirens. Yeah. You know, relatively, I say. Well, but it's pretty big. You know, you've watched these faces probably your whole life. I certainly have. Do you, I've never thought about this. You just made me think of this. Do you like kind of instinctually know how to light a Julianne more

when? Well, that's, I mean, that's so long. Do you start learning when they're on set? Well, I mean, The movie is not reality, of course, right? So, like, there's also, each movie has a dunk type of thing. But what's really useful is also, it's like, it's like, oh, I have not lived too anymore. Like, I need to, I've seen her. I mean, I was telling her one of the first time, but I noticed her when I was sort of being a bit of a fan on our last day of the shoot, I think I was, to remind her one time. I remember seeing her in a film when I was in a film. I was in film school, is it about the multiplex, and it was the hand the rocks the cradle, and she was the best friend of Vennel Sierra in that film.

And she's fantastic. She's like a very, like, everyone remembers the best friend. friend who was spicy and it was going to discover that, you know, the nefarious nature of her potentially murderous, uh, nanny, uh, played by Rebecca DeMorne. But anyway, but I just remember like that sort of like, who is this person? Like just like the way that the presence she commanded and the, uh, was quite amazing. Anyways, uh, so I've watched your time, but it's different when I start to cheat somebody. It's like it's if filmed somebody, it's like, okay, I, I want to go back and look at what

they've done recently, see how they've been lit, what they've been in, what they've been in, like how does this sound how they perform and also like to get an idea of what that's what that's like really useful and um you've talked to the like their makeup artist like they'll know actors will know especially if someone who's worked at what works for them what doesn't right at certain types of lighting and just just don't work with their face or don't make them look the way you know that they would like the character to look and and so you sort of look for trends in that in work they've done and see especially look for like to maybe not similar characters but similar um kind of demeanors and stuff in a certain way like this might be where she's going to be

it's hard to really know as we work together and also a project like this because i mean she has such a you know and such an in-demand you know incredible star uh you know she's and she's not in every scene she doesn't come with the beginning of prep you know we're already shooting by the time she gets to arrive so i'm meeting you kind of on the fly we're also just developing now the look of the whole show and i'm working with um you know megan and milly and um yeah with megan fagin in Millie Alcock and I hadn't met Kevin yet. So sort of fitting her into that world. And so it's the first few days are quite, you know,

nerve-wracking for me because like I want to now try to get the look of the to sort of the environment we're trying to create with this, you know, the sort of cliff house aspirational, strange, bright, almost hallucinogenic type of like place where you might get mesmerized or might you want to aspire to be and also fit her into that with her look and like this, you know, It's cool, how about it's just cooler light work or what, you know, there's certain colors that sometimes doesn't work with people's skin and everyone's different. So it's quite nerve-wracking the first couple days.

The first few setups, I'm just like, oh, my God, I got to make sure I can make, you know, like this work. But it just takes a bit extra effort and you get to learn someone. And she is absolutely lovely. I mean, she's the most amazing performer, I'm the most amazing person. So it's just like, it's just an incredible joy when he gets someone to work or something like that. But it is like nerve-wracking at the time because it's like, it's, you know, I don't have all, it's not an all-day cameras. let's try this let's try that i mean we're shooting a scene and here we go i think her first scene was um the gum exchange scene in episode one when she pulls up in the golf cards and then they

do the which is one of those perverse scenes in the show i love that scene so much and uh niki does such an amazing job week the week we were conceiving how to shoot that scene and i would work that work out that moment between them and what we'd make them look like and then of course that day we're going to do it it's boring yeah and it's like so it'd be nice up with some some son of the background, but you don't want to keep the sun off her face, you don't know what's too much hard like, but it sure you don't want to cover the entire thing with a 20-by, hard by a machine to keep everyone, keep dry and keep the mist off everybody. But the scene turned out really beautifully. And, you know, it was, it's, I mean, for me,

I find that slightly anxiety inducing when you were starting it, but also we had a really good concept and we, you know, you sort of learn as you go. And she's just, I can't speak, I'm more highly the cast of the cast of this project. I mean, Millie cast, show and Nikki just incredible like they're all like all four the leads are unbelievable yeah and they're just and it's just incredible faces and so expressive and so as it's a great energy it's uh was just a just a total joy well it's you know they always whenever you're talking to students or new dPs it's always you you light spaces you light spaces you don't light faces don't don't get caught in the portraiture trap and then you get one of those people

and you're like, Kevin Bacon should be lit different. Or more likely, I'll like the room so Kevin Bacon looks good. It's like, I try and reverse engineer that as much as possible because, you know, I, I think we probably spoke to this before. Like at a reasonable pace, I can't start from scratch usually on a close-up. And for some things I can, but then I know, okay, they'll be here or then I can do some big modifications based on what the room looks like. But I think I'm ahead of that. I don't like put myself in a bad corner. Now she's in the corner facing a dark cabinet.

I got no space. And it's supposed to be this, you know, a moment. It's like, well, she's here by the window. Let's have her face the window the correct way so I can, you know, motivate life from the right direction. And I'll still, like, and craft the quality of lighting one on the person. You try and sort of do that. So he's sort of our lighting faces, but also spaces. You kind of try and do both.

Yeah. You know, I, for the longest time, wanted to do like a month of podcasts. with actors who have also directed. Oh, yeah. So, like, we're shooting for the moon, but it's like Angelina Jolie, Ben Affleck, and then I had a few others. I think, I think Kevin and his wife were taking of doing a film soon,

so you should contact them. I went to a film school with their daughter with Sosie. Oh, right. I doubt they remember. Oh, yeah, you know all about that then. I've met, I've met them both, both of parents. but um in a very funny situation basically we were children we were like 16 but i guess uh so we didn't have cell phones i mean everyone had cell phones but it wasn't like and uh i just remember

we were playing guitar hero in uh one of the apartments and this is you don't live in that life anyway the uh we just hear the knocking on the door and my friend harold goes to open the door and he goes just uh and then we hear like kind of loud voices and then the door closed And we're like, what the hell was that? And he goes, she was looking for Sosey. And we were like, who? And he goes, the closer. And we're like, oh, shit, really?

Anyway, she was at the pool. No one knew. But, oh, but the point was just with actors that have directed and stuff, or just actors that have worked in so much. It ends up that a lot of times they end up becoming cinematography nerds. You know, just hearing like Ben Affleck all the time, or like I said, Angelina Jolie, where they start talking about camera a ton.

Yeah. I was wondering if any of these actors had spoken to you in such a way about, like, touch some hit them. Or I'm trying to think now. I did a film with Sarah Michelle Geller quite a long time ago, like 2008. And I think her uncle is a cinematographer, I believe. I can't remember. It was a fan member. And so she was quite a nerd already for that.

And she kind of knew what worked for her. And she wanted to let me know that she had some education in it because she had a family member who's a DP. And that was fun. like oh yeah right okay yeah and then she'd be like what do you think of this i'm like well actually that was fine i was more worried about something else like you know there's we got to get relate on the level of like you know yes i have your back and i want to do you to look the way character wants to look and what you want to look uh and i understand you know uh you understand a bit about it so like you know i could she's just one she was very she wanted to know a lot

and wanted to be you know always like part of process to make sure he felt i was you know being protected and like had enough time and that type of thing um but that was more like about the process and stuff for her. I think also being the star of the movie, which is really helpful. And she's, she's spent an incredible performer. She's just like a, just a little that's, yeah, just as a metronome quality ability. Like, and now's the time when this is going to happen and she could just pull it off. Like, it's just amazing that skill level. But I haven't had many, I mean, certain, I think, Julianne knows she knows what works for, what she doesn't. And, you know, what her, like her makeup artist knows too. It's like,

she's like, over time, you know, okay, well, this kind of color, not so good. This kind of stuff but so we have discussions about that well especially someone who gets photographed that much right i mean you start to know they they're not you know she's a very perceptive person and she's very um pretty smart and it's not like something that she has to have any anxiety over she's like knows like well this kind of thing i know is work and once she knows that i know it or i'm you see that i'm trying my best and i'm you know i'm you know i'm aware of these things and everything else it's like that's that's that's all that's all she wants right just like someone who's like out there uh to be aware of these things just just

not to be callously thinking i'm not which i didn't realize i forgot i shouldn't have bounce light coming up under your chin because sometimes a set might be the only way to do it is like pounding into the windows and that might be going away well i sure can't put someone like her next to that because that's a terrible thing for her in certain angles that's not very good at all but she could have a window behind her but then we have to stay in a certain way so it's all you're aware of these things they're not like massive impediments so you just something you have to be kind of aware of and what's that what she really wants is like what most actors want it's just someone to be there to be thinking about it

That'd be that part of the process. It doesn't have to take over anything. Doesn't have to take its creative place above other things. It'd just be something like, oh, I never thought about the fact I shouldn't put purple light on your face. Right. That it brings out your childhood acne or whatever hell it is

or some quirk of light. Well, and it's also not, it's very easy to hear that and think like, oh, vanity. But it, in one way,

sure, but also it's like, A, you end up learning new tricks. You know, you'll see someone that's like, because this happens with, with another.

actress but also people are so you know it's almost like memory colors you know you know what grass is supposed to look like you know what yeah a coke can is supposed to look like and it's like faces are the same way like if yeah one scene or one angle they suddenly don't look the way you're you see it's going to distract you it's not even like who cares about vanity it's just now you've taken the audience out of it it's and there's sort of like that I guess and this is not like um there's an idea of like the difference between like a movie star and an actor and so in a way not to say and i don't mean that in a way it's like a qualitative difference but someone who's like who's and how they appear is like it's their brand right certain movie

stars are there are people going to see them and they need to be look like them and they like they can have fun being in makeup or something like yeah and that's there's a brand that's certain things that's one type of thing that's like there's their look and this how they are and it may be modified for the character or is he has someone like Tom Cruise who can wear an eye patch in Valcrieg right right and wants to play a guy with two fingers

and an emptied of hand and love wants to put on prosthetic hands to be a traffic thunder you know but also you know he's going to be you know Maverick is going to look pretty similar and then 25 30 years apart or and not about not it's like there's a certain brand thing

with a movie star where it's like you would they want to be recognizable as part of why they're in the project or what they want to be in or their version of the character has to be something that's still a part of them you know because part of their part of their own you know personal essence is also like in that in the character why they were cast as it or why they maybe produced or wrote the film or whatever the combinations are and that's the different responsibility but also the thing about less vanity is that the character needs to appear as the character is supposed to appear right you know it's like uh if the character is supposed to be ethereal then i'm not going to make the

the person look at there. If the character is supposed to look a bit worn down, they should look worn down. And then it's in the question of like, what is worn down for the audience of this version, this version of this actor? If they know them well, you can make them really run down and may be too shocking or you want, if they want to be a bit run down. So the odd, their audience that's, you know, came to the movie to see them, goes, wow, I've seen this happen.

This is, this is serious, right? To the character or however the part of the story is, you sort of have to balance all those things together depending on what use it is. And, like, how a character feels is a really important point. Like, for how I light someone's face for a certain scenes, should also be reflective of, like, what it brings out in their face, what emotions going on, where they're at, you know, if there's going to be a little tear rolling out of the cheek,

well, it's nice to be, see that. And, you know, in a way, which is I'm not like putting light in the area that tells me tears coming. But when a tear comes, you should definitely not miss it. Right. You know, I mean, that type of thing. Well, and it also, you just made me think of, Yeah, absolutely.

Everyone goes to see, like, their favorite movie star beat, you know, if Keanu Reeves isn't something, I'm going to go see it because I like him. Yeah. You know. And if he wants to wear a beard as John Wick, just don't want to look like, you know, Neo anymore. Like, I want to look like that more seasoned character has been through much. Beard was a great idea. But then that's it.

But the one that occurred to me when you were like, oh, this never happens. I guess it's Heath Ledger. Because it was like, it's a heart throb. the whole time and then goes and pulls the joker and it's it's almost like you say that and it's a kind of it's almost a meme he was so good it was like a meme where everyone goes that's the one guy because i can't off the top of my head i can't really think of like anyone else who went from drastic character changes and nailed them both well that was one also i think there was the most unexpected for the audience no one expected it's kind of like when in some ways when

When Michael Keaton was, I mean, I'm all for Michael Keaton being cast as Batman and the shirt. People were outraged. Like, what this guy? The guy from Boz and Buddies or whatever was? Or not his buddy. Was that the one who kind of comedy that was in? Mr. Mom and stuff like that.

I was like, he can't be, he can't be Bruce Wayne. And you watch him in a scene where he goes, you want to get nuts? And he goes to, no, you feel a little crazy. And like, oh, because, you know, there's an element of Bruce Wayne, it's a little bit off. And you know what? He does that very well, it turns out. And that's also part of comedy. So there was a, people were shocked that he pulled that off.

And he's great as, you know, Bruce Wayne and as Batman. And, uh, and that's a fascinating thing to see that term. But Heath Ledger, I think was the biggest flip because he'd been a comedy, he did comedy, then the heart, he's that he's handsome. He'd done serious drama. He'd done all these things if he had not, so he's too good. He could, he's played generally good characters, made conflicted characters and funny care.

He can't play someone who's just like absolute, you know, unhinged. unadulterated, you know, wants them, as, you know, as Michael Kane's character would say, want to make some men just want to watch the real burn. And, you know, he can't be that, but boy, was he ever. And, and I think that's been, it also was like somebody being cast a role that was a total unknown, which is what made it so effective. Because it was so unlike, who is this? That's not Heath Ledger. It's like, no, it's just the Joker. And welcome to, you know, welcome to the Dark Night. Yeah. Yeah, the bar by my house plays movies all the time. and Night's Tale is just on a bunch and it's even even just reading it you know it's fun it's such a good movie and then that I have for the first time of my life my notes are on my computer oh no worries I didn't I because normally I'll write them down

so I have him here but this is what I had to do on my phone as I was I just got traveling for work a bunch oh I got it I'm gonna cut this part out the uh have you heard of the fuji film eterna the gfx actually i don't have to cut this out this will have happened by the time this comes out okay uh they're they're doing like a touch and try at the asc clubhouse oh what next week oh i'll be i'm shooting during the week so i'm here in l.A but i'm shooting you're in a week so oh you are oh okay yeah um yeah it's it's like and

it's a weird time it's only for like an hour but um all i'll let you Have you had any interest in that? Because I'm fascinated. I was talking to them two days ago at a different camera event. And their approach seems to be very interesting. So I wonder if this is, I'm actually not familiar with it, to be honest. So I'm always curious, but I'm always curious because they did some really crazy things with their consumer still camera sensors a long time ago. Right.

You know what I mean? They were like the first person like, what about this dual ISO? but like they were doing stuff like that. So I'm always curious to see what our engineers are up to. So basically it's a cinema body, but it's got the GFX 102 sensor in it. Okay.

And then they're going to have like a full height anamorphic option and all this kind of thing. But it seems like their idea with it is to keep it really simple to not pull a Sony and put every possible thing in it. It's just going to be like if we treat this like a film stock.

Yeah, like a film box. It does this one thing and leave some aftermarket people for processing. I wonder what the rolling shutter issue is that we like in terms of the, that's the biggest issue is that those sensors, but it's the adapting sensors is the breed speed, right? So obviously I haven't touched it. I asked about this because that's everyone's question. Yeah.

Apparently it's the same rolling shutter as the GFX 100. Okay. But that being said, tools for different things. Like when I was shooting a racetrack when I was testing it before it came out, not the GIFT, not the Eterno, but yeah, yeah, yeah. And I didn't, I didn't really notice. I mean, it's the same thing with like the Burano, right? Everyone is like, this is the worst rolling shot.

And then you use it. Yeah, it's not. It depends on the type of thing. Yeah. If you're doing something that really brings out the worst candidate, it's bad. But for most people, see, there's not enough. There's not enough verticals. going like this right and you're seeing to do it so well and how like with paint i just i don't whip

pan in my work yeah and times out of 10 it's on sticks or handle yeah it's the majority of work it's not it's not a huge issue i wouldn't want to shoot me all the raid with it you know yeah because you might be eyes and cuts it's wet pans but but yeah that's cool that's good it's fascinating i mean yeah technology's moving a break in your face yeah i actually just bought a f55 because this documentary I'm working on would rather I shoot that than the A unit is Venice and so I was renting this FX6

but it wasn't mine so I was spending a lot of money on that and they were like and someone offered me at 55 so I bought it and they're like oh yeah we'd much prefer that I was like and testing it it's still pretty good yeah obviously doesn't have a dynamic range

that everything else has but no I mean I think I used it on production like I was quite a long time ago now it was pretty brand new that would have been like oh a lot yeah seven eight years ago something like that but yeah no it's it's fascinating i mean i've been using the i could use the Alexa 35 on sirens and i really love that camera i'm just getting to know it and it's the it's the it's the curve it takes well to get used to it's it's it's a impressive job and like remapping kind of where where the you know where the information

is going and still manage to maintain like you can't seem to ever you know, ever make it too dark or might be any too bright. I still have this amazing information in the middle. Like, the fidelity is so good. I was, I literally, the other day was just writing down all the tested dynamic range of all these cameras. So not the one they sell. Oh, yeah.

You do the test. Yeah, when people's down to themselves. So, like, because I was just trying to think, because like my C500 gets 13.1 stops. It's like, that's amazing. Venice 2, 13.2. Yeah. Crazy. LF 13.5.

Ariel L.S. the 35, 15.3. Yeah, I know. It's, it is, it can't blow it out. No, it is, it is almost, yeah, it's almost unnerving, doing stuff with it. It's, yeah, it's pretty interesting. Because I'm using to banished on this project now. And, yeah, it's definitely different system, and they're all of amazing dynamic range. And the low light, and the dual ISO thing is quite useful. But the, the range on the, on the 35 and it, and it's just the quality of it.

I'm like, this really, it's really something. Like, just what I could do in the grade and just, it's, yeah, I just really, it's, it is an amazing. They weren't going to, they weren't going to change the Alexa until they could really make an improvement and they could improve it in every area. Like they were going to wait. They were like rushing out another version. And that's like they, they certainly weighed long enough. They certainly made a big improvement to really make it quite impressive. Yeah, I actually, I don't, I think this episode will probably come out before.

Then I'm not sure. I still have to like mix them up because of it. Emmys. But I talked to Chase Hagan, who's the product manager for the A-35, and you're spot-on. That's exactly what he said. He was like, basically, Ari's position was, you know, future-proof, future-proof it against not other cameras, but display technologies. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Like, how much data can you put on an OLED? All right, we need to be that.

Yeah, like, what's going to be good in 10 years and still be good? And let's just say display technology catches up to what the camera's doing. We make sure that we are in a situation technically where we can just do that and so support that. And they don't want to be in a Netflix situation. Well, it's not 4K, that kind of nonsense again. And like, no, they're going to beat those standards. Well, that's why the F55 worked for that short amount of time was because it was like 4K Sympapod. Yeah, I know.

It was like. Yeah. It was a bit of a, yeah. Yeah, it's fascinating stuff. Do you have like, obviously all the cameras are good, but basically why did you shoot A35 for Sirens and Venice 2 for the next project? Like, was there a technical? Well, actually, no, actually, Venice 2 is not my pick. Like, I'm joining this show.

I'm doing two episodes in the middle of a show that's running. So Venice 2 is picked by the first team, which was Florida Hoffmeister. We shot the first two episodes of this. And then Armando Salas is shooting the. the middle block and these two choose the ones after me. So I'm joining a system already running and they picked and they did a nice, they picked some interesting comments of things. Again, like the cameras are always super sharp.

So there's always a desire to sort of do something with the lenses sometimes to sort of, um, assuage that a bit on this project. They de-tune the, um, the VA slightly. So they're little, the aberration gets a bit kind of cookie in the, uh, in the out of focus areas and it's, you know, they're all quite different lenses too. Like they, they're a little differently, but the, it tends to do a bit of time. Yeah. Yeah, the Panavision.

Yep. And they're, and they're, yeah, so it's, it's, I'm just, so me, I'm like getting to know what, what they, the recipe day, they've engineered already and we're sort of, you know, um, getting to know that in a hurry getting in. But it's, it's not that just similar to some of the things I was trying to do on sirens in some ways, which was to use the, I use the signature primes with the Alexa. Because I, I just prefer for me, I know the Alexa the best. I've done two, I did two pilots with that, uh, the new, the 35's previous to the sirens. And for me, it's for what it could do with people's skin. It's like, I'm most familiar with that. I'm seeing, you know, a lot of this, the whole story about women and I really wanted

to, I felt most comfortable with that camera that way. And I used these signature primes on a few things, including moon knife. And we talked about that. And the one thing that they didn't really have them any of the time in Windows doing that was the rear diopter options they had. Yeah. Because, you know, because Airy rental and Airy cameras are different companies. And so like, even though Eric cares, we have all these things, rental wasn't buying

any of them because no one wanted to rent them. So they were hard to get. But now you can get the sets of adopters very easily. And they do create a very interesting set of aberrations and lenses. And they create, they change the character to quite a lot. And they use them specifically to help the sort of in the show, like sort of like get people getting in a, in a head space visually where they're being either seduced or seducing someone will use that sort of bend the, bend their face a bit and also change the way the edge of the frame went out of focus. And so they have the four levels of them. so I can pick each one for each scene kind of thing.

And then also I can just vary it because, I mean, when you do what you detour the lens, that's it. It's going to have one look. And I was trying to do something where we can vary it throughout the production so that the stuff. And I couldn't afford to have like multiple sets of lenses, obviously. It's one set where the adopter is way cheaper to get than it is like, okay, we'll use, you know, detune these for this set and these, these for this, for this, these type of scenes is a way to sort of do the both,

which is, I think, what they're intended for. And it did, I worked out quite well. Yeah. Isn't there a, like a blank one that you can sandwich your own material in? Yeah, you can get a ring. You can ring and put Nets to stuff on them. You just get the ring. Yeah, they're magnetic.

So you can put your own thing in there. And we experiment with some stuff like that. It's, that's a bit hidden mess, I think, depending on the focal lengths. But I'm not sure I was a long time ago, back when the shooting fell and, you know, finding stuff in a store, like maybe this one, this weird pink, rosy type of, and it looked amazing. But it's like, you know, the right focal length, the right conditions, it's fantastic. and then you can't do it on a wider lens because you see the net and it doesn't work as well

and a larger lens just disappears and then it's a really fun right back then now I was shooting film too no monitors you're just guessing you're like shooting stuff looking at a test wow it's great you have to take little film clips of them and snip them out so you can remember what they look like and right there's so much fun right but that's I mean this Matt is a 22

day movie back you know we're shooting with a with a BL4 and you know with one set of lenses and like nets on four of them and then I try and find a filter combination on the super wide lens it would make look the same. But having a ring that's pre-built for these lens is great, because now the creative opportunities are much bigger.

You can try your own things. Yeah. So how did you in, I could probably go on for hours about just creative experimentation, because I feel like digital kind of, in my head, I guess I'm just going to do it anyway. In my head,

when you test stuff like that on film, that space between results and test allows either reset or come to everything with fresh eyes. When you're just a-being stuff on the monitor, you know, it's like tasting food too much at a certain point. Like you might just taste salt. You got to cleanse your palate. Yeah.

You've got to cleanse your palate. Yeah. When you're building a look for a show like Sirens that has extra, you know, extracurriculars going on, how do you, how long did that take? Like, how did you come up with that? Were there like references? Were you doing tests that needed that space? to breathe.

Yeah, I mean, this is a big shot. We'll take the rest of the interview, but it's the, yeah, this, let me, let me, let me start with a general approach. One thing I try and do with the digital stuff is, because the one thing, what you mentioned is one of the key difficulties with the same thing with like looking at a screen and the same, we're not having contrasting colors and images like your eye will tune out what you get to used to, right? Because then our image processing in our mind and one thing is,

I learned, you know, one things I knew intuitively, but what I do, what I know, what I understand a bit about how images work and our brains work help me when I was going to my cataract surgery, for example. Because, like, you know, your iTunes and tunes these things out. It's all the time what you're seeing is not reality, but your brain's interpretation of the information, right? The image processing is doing is why we see moving easily, why we see difference in certain colors more easily is all keen around. We almost have so much bandwidth. It's the same thing. It's not unlike a sensor and a brain in a camera to make sure we see. The grass moving means predators in there or something like that.

And there's things like that we do inherently. We also removed it flaws. We scratch your eye, for example. People have an eye injury. You scratch your eye, which I did a long while when I was young. It's like you get like a double image for a while. Well, one, it heals, but two, your brain will start to not see it. Right.

Because just like if you get like a floaters in your eyes or things like that, your brain will figure out how to interpret it this stuff to make. is so it's not something you're always looking at. It's not like having like a big something marked of the windscreen of your car that you can't look past. It's like your brain will literally turn it out. It's like put, it's like in Formula One racing, the Halo device to save, you know, it's like a front grid.

It has a bar in the middle, right? And they're obviously focusing on the next corner. And I could tell you, you know, their eyesight's pretty important. And the car is vibrating and they're trying to see, you know, the apex of the corner, turn a mile an hour. And there's a thing this thick running right down the middle, which is like about this,

but arm's leg in front of their eyes. Does it cause a problem? No. They can see right through it and they don't even see it anymore. So that being part of it, when you do the digital stuff, it's like you start seeing stuff, it's like your eye will start to tune. If it's a particular type of hue or example, you know, plus we do see Hughes, define a huge bit differently.

Your rain will start to tune it out. So it becomes like, I don't know which way I'm going anymore. It can happen when you're grading, right? You're locked in a room. You only see the one image. And you see over time. you can just be drifting in one direction as you're thinking it's too much

and going one way and then you go back and you have to go back and look at the beginning. Like, well, look at where we started. That seems harsh now. Or let's say, because you're tuned, your eyes tuning to normalize anything you're doing, basically where you're seeing. So that's the first problem.

And that's one thing about the other thing is when you look at something and doing a film test, like what's not sure what's going to look like. Now you're coming with a cleaner palette and then you go from reality to like in your projection room. Wow, look at that. Let's think about that now. I guess maybe less or more and is a clear thing.

If you're watching on a Zoom or something going, you know, in film timing, you used to have like filled film strips, like at a point of red, this type of thing. And I'd be in the back with like, you know, with Dave Armstrong and I was sitting in Vancouver or something like that. You know, he timed, they brought the print of So Falun Cedars back up because he did all the daylies with Leach Bypass and Rob Richardson was determined. Like, Dave must do the final thing.

But it was just an amazing color. tire but the process involved like let's go back back get the loop out take some things out but it was that process you could go like is that the right interpretation you could look at it there it is you're two things on and off but if you're staring a screen going like and someone's slow you're slowly twisting a dial and shifting someone's skin tone a little bit more agenda i mean one it's hard to you know even with trade eyes like you and i have to find but also it's so easy to get out a visual tangent where your brain starts to like i don't know the difference anymore and if i show things i got two directors that like i can't tell like it's like two points to this or that i mean

they can't even know uh and there because they're also not how they're used looking at things that's a bit that makes the process a bit tricky so one of the things i try and do is when i shoot a test um like a shut like when i start doing camera tests if i can hopefully with some of the actors i try and make sure within the same shot do a bunch of different things so it's not just a shot with like how does green light look on her because then by after looking at green light for two seconds or a pink shot then the pink shot looks too pink well that's just doesn't help me right so but you know what if you do if they walk through a green light and a pink light and a blue light in the same shot you at least can see them together so what i would so i would try and build it into a shot

like when on sirens we had um uh we were like fortunate to have Megan fey and Millie alcock you know and then also we can see them together because they're sisters it's important to see their skin tone together see them their costumes together see devon's like pre-arriving look and then see how, you know, how does, how, they're going to be the scenes to get, like maybe warmer light looks better on the one that have a natural warm complexion than the other, but then what I would try and do is make sure I walk them through a couple of things and try different colors within the same shot. So I will, you know, we'll do a different board queue.

We'll try cooler light, warmer light, this that, I've been walk to like a side light, top light or something like that. I'll sort of arrange like a full shot they can walk into and go into a closeup and then move the camera so I can see a profile at the same time and adjust the lighting and have that sort of pre-programmed and they could try it from wardrobe because that way at least it helps get away in that problem of just like staring at her with a warm light she looks so beautiful then later is it too warm it's not warm enough and then well you know what you have an idea once you see her walk through white lights and you see her with a white background or you see her you know so

i try and do things like that to counteract that because it's also it's it's it's hard enough for me to tell those things but it's certainly impossible for a lot most directors who like i I don't know. If you would show them an all-to-all orange shot five orange, very warm light, fire-lit scenes. Most of them are going to, like, okay, well, they're very similar. Like, you know, you and I might see nuances and like, well, one is too red in this part or in certain parts of the face. You can't really, you know, that's not the job of a lot of directors to, like, pick things of that difference. I want to do that.

But I so I want to interview the test. It also doesn't make a confusing exam. I can't show them five things that look very similar and make the ask them to pick. that's not helpful today and they have so many things on their mind but also it's not helpful in a way because it doesn't provide a contrast so if we do something it has a lot of the very things in it it's much easier to spark conversation with the director like you know what maybe think about it watching her in a warm light right like like there's a scene and um in sirens where the first time Megan gets dressed what she said what she's being kicked out of the place and she's at the

the at the the whaler in and the guy like you got the gift card by the way just go to the you know go to the go to the go to the store buy yourself something which you're you're going to, amazing, buy something on the way out, and why don't you? And she buys this stunning red dress. And it's, you know, the competition is like, well, the dress will come up more against a contrasting background, but also her skin wants to look nice. It's like finding the right amount of like warm light that will also make her glow because she's mostly been pale and in black, gray, black, but also will bring the red out,

not compete with the red, not suppress the red. Finding the right kind of warm tones to do that was really exciting and fun. Would make her like just both like incredibly. stunning and golden and unlike she normally looks but also not make everything red because that would make the red dress disappear you know you can't have the shadows are too warm it'll just look everything's got a red smear on it well that's less attractive then she's gonna jump out of the background still but still have the red dress be like a you know a real eye catcher so it's yeah you know contrast is a big part of it that was one of the uh i don't know

if it was very early on but certainly one of the bigger kind of stupid lessons i ever learned was just like if i think you see it in hunt for the red october but like you know if you have like a oh yeah it's all one color you need neutral light somewhere in there just so people can calibrate to it oh that's yeah oh it's red okay it's not just like tinted yeah you know yeah it's uh i mean you know like rigging like rigging for red light when they're like in combat stuff there's still always something in the background usually in the hunt for october there's something that is getting some contrast but also that thing every summary looks the same that the summary is you know it immediately where you were like am i in the dallas i'm i on the service ship or i am i'm i on the

red october you know yellow light is in the is in the um over october you know it's like a warm light and the red light is in the submarine and blue light is in the service ship and that's the way it is you always you know right away where you are yeah we're the uh you know last time we didn't really talk about watchman that much last time i don't think i didn't i did not re-listened to that. No, I don't listen to be fair. I don't really re-listen to anything unless I need. Oh, yes, just too much material.

I'm sorry, I'm a bit behind of your podcast, too. I've missed the last few. So it's fine. They're not going anyway. But the, yeah, I did the math the other day. It's like 350 hours right now. So it's like, I already did it. I don't need to do it again.

Oh, no, no. But I do want to, my colleague of mine, a pro video coalition, made a book called Art of the Cut, which was just. like synthesis of all these interviews he'd done for editors. Oh, nice. And I wanted to do that, but at the time he had help, like, he made it with Pro Video Coalition

more or less, but he had, like, he had help. Like, he didn't sit there and manually cut it all down. He had some, and I was like, can we do that for a mind? And they're like, we don't have that kind of money anymore. And I was like, good, good, good. But I don't know, I don't know what would mean. Anyway, that's completely beside the point. watchman certainly had a look

was there anything you learned on that show that made sirens easier well it um oh it doesn't say easier but like i guess watchman was the first like mini-series type of thing like so when i worked in game of thrones i was like joining a show and process and watchman was even when i even i didn't do the pilot we reshot quite a bit of it and i was sort task would like help us try and unlock a visual language that makes sense for based on what what we would bring from the comic what we bring from the aesthetic of the comic which would translate and not and that was quite the puzzle but that was that was the first time i've been involved

like a cable project like that and then sort of task would like just help us do this and we and christian the designer was like okay okay let's just do you know christian was a big a big fan of um you know limiting the palette like removing certain colors that thing okay like if we're going to do yellow masks, no yellow anywhere else. We're going to have this. And yellow is a weird color for a mask, but it sort of lets us know it's watchmen because of the association with the map. Like these strange

associations with the colors in the comic that don't make sense thing, but they'll become the new language of like, well, we know that means this is this and this is that. Mars is purple. Yeah, exactly. Whatever is going to be for the particular thing. And then I was having

to communicate that, like writing a little sort of style brief, which is not like the list of rules, but developing a bunch of ideas and communicating that. And then helping get the total team behind it, like the practice of doing that, which is something I would do. But that's what we would do on a small movie, right? That's all that on a, on a, on a movie, there's a much more of a brief, like, here's how we're going to tell this story and that we get everybody involved, it's set decorator.

And like, we're all, you know, it's more like, like, being sitting in a room with the production designer director and myself and just suffering how we're going to tell a story is more can we do in like a piece of like in a film that it would be in sort of tv or a streaming or a cable show but we tried to approach it that way so it's good practice and do be dealing with a bigger team and getting a production on board with the types of things we had to do so that was good i was good practice that and also like i'm kind of i'm hooked on doing that now it's the best you know and moon night was similar thing like moon night was like well i don't deal with you know Muhammad's got a very unique vision also very improvisational style of directing that makes certain challenges of doing

that process you know more challenging but also in credit it create incredible moments of brilliance of like you know what what in the mirrors what if we don't just look at the few mirrors we'll get all the mirrors in the room we see it everywhere and i'm like okay you know provide incredible challenges but it was good practice in doing that and sort of like helping communicate all that and so in sirens do a similar thing i mean that's what nicky was like when she contacted me about it because I first of all she got to read it and she was like I I'm you know she loved the material let's think it's going to be heard if you've seen any of whatever but also it's like the tone is so interestingly mixed which is a huge challenge like

how do we like how do we like how do we tell the story like what is the right way to do this what is the right way to be inside the experience of being seduced or it's a funny show when people are involved their own self-deception they could be quite funny I mean if anyone's laughed at themselves they've realized I'm just being an idiot right now which I think you know I think most people have done. These are characters aren't laughing themselves yet, but we can laugh at them in a way, which is like, I get it,

because they're like, this is ridiculous what they're doing. And so it can be both funny, but not in a way, which is also so distancing to make them, oh, I think someone at my door, actually. Oh.

The things I did want to ask you before we officially wrapped was one, well, you kind of touched on it earlier, but it was just about I feel you know it's a question that I've asked a few people but people seem to think that there is a Netflix look and certainly this show is

like prettier which I think means into what people believe is the Netflix look you know a little more low con a little less like you know drama it's not seven but hey I was wondering if you could either confirm or dispel that myth And then B, when making a show that is intentionally pretty, like, what kind of lighting techniques did you lean on?

Because I think that, I think more often than not, we as lower tier DPs need to make something look pretty more than gritty. It's, yeah, I mean, it depends. It's, well, first of all, there's no, there's no like Netflix filtering gets put on something like that. I think that why I hear that term, first of all, anything in the media in terms of, like, you know, media in terms of like the, you know, critical or talking about. shows general. It's like the spectrum of things they're commenting on it is so vast that I think it's more of a comment on like what they've been exposed to. But also it's on a wall in a way of like there's a certain type of show that like Netflix makes a lot of, you know, a lot of, let's just say content in their own words. Right. And not a lot of content is not necessarily,

you know, let's just say finish the degree of polish that let's say someone like a student makes a movie with because it's not really designed to be necessarily consumed over and over again. It's not designed to be like, I want to watch the movie over again. It's not like David Lean, you know, spending, you know, it's not like close encounters with all the extras on the mountain walking over. It's, it's going to be, I mean, it's just a scalar type of things they make. They do make a lot of stuff which is made at a certain scalable level that's like that's, and that will, that can have a certain look, I guess, if that would you call it that

because it's a speed of which is made. The thing that I have always said is the kind of what we were talking about earlier, the floor is so high. You know, when we were talking about like how cameras are all good and stuff, it's like even the low budget stuff used to be used to look low budget. And so it would put you in the mind of like, oh, you know, it celebrates the way you watch it. Whereas now low budget stuff can look very good. And then you go, well, that's not what I was, you know. Yeah, I mean, I think I think I think what people say like, I think I think the comment of a Netflix look is coming from a place of like a looking at a conglomeration of things, assuming there's something to do with that, which is very different than let's say.

the time and the time, the energy involved, the talent involved, and the intent. Because you can make something with very little money and make it look really cool, where you can make something very quickly, very fast, that looks adequate, right, that with suits a certain audience. I always say adequate. This is not like a dissonant. It's like those are not the important parts of that show, right, in terms of like certain types of things.

It's like, we want to see all the people and we're going to follow the comedy, wherever it is. You know, Friends is not known for cinematography in that kind of way, but it has to be very effective cinematography done in a super quick way because that's the way to shoot the show. There's a, there's a certain skill, there's a big skill level of that and a lot, but it's not like what people say, they don't think of Game of Thrones, you think like, wow, it's a cool looking show. It's like castles and murky hallways and candles and swords and, you know, all the stuff and dragons and, you know, and no one calls that the age. No, yeah, I know, but, but the show is made to be more like a whole box office as their entire name is that idea. And Netflix is making a variety of content. I mean, you say like, does the crown have the Netflix look?

I would say not. No. If that's not, what I hear that term, that's not the show they mean. I don't think, and they would say adolescence has that look or a Netflix look. It's an independently produced show that is on Netflix, right? It's not like that. But I think some things that maybe monitor, you know, internally have a certain thing. There's also, there's definitely a lot more voiceover in Netflix shows, especially once they develop I find.

There's a voiceover stuff. And like the sort of studio process of the way they tell stories, I think they favor that style because, I mean, just, you know, this is just my own speculation that way. That works for the core audience, for the audiences they're trying to attract for certain things. I mean, Netflix is trying to make shows for everybody all over, but there's a large proportion to want shows that they can, like, you know, the shows are like, I don't need to be able to see everything only visually. I want to hear it so I can be missing, not looking at the screen or doing something else and still get it. And that, that's a certain style of writing, right?

And then so does that mean, is that a Netflix thing? Well, that's one audience or catering to. so it's not like there's one look necessarily. Yeah, well, and to that point, I don't even think you're speculating. I'm almost sure I heard one of the executives, maybe it was Netflix, I don't know, but somewhere saying like they,

their internal testing or whatever, you know, showed that people like shows more when they can be on their phone at the same time or be cooking dinner at the same time. Yeah, the audience, yeah, the audience, yeah, their audience, right? It's their audience, and that's not every audience, right? But the audience, maybe that's the majority of people they're looking for where some people like they want to go to the movie theater they want to be

quiet they want to do that thing that's an audience as well and they're their their their their main audience or biggest growth audience maybe is that type of and they're very they're very you know data-centric in terms of how they approach things and I think I think there's big pitfalls to that in terms of how you manage stories and what stories you tell and how you tell them because you don't want to you want to stay within the bounds of what you think the audience is expecting which means you don't surprise them as often which means like this that's a very big meta conversation about that I don't want to get into too deep details with that, but it is like, it's about process more than anything else. As far as like making this show pretty, it's like that's the, like part of the concept of the show of the story is like to make this weird place that Simone escapes to a bit aspirational for her, right?

And also it's this mystery thing. It's supposed to be it's a bit off kilter when Devin shows up. It's like, what the hell is going on here? This is crazy. This is like it's a cult. This is it. It's like it seems nice and glossy and the clothes are. great and everything tastes great and all the fine nice days and so and so it's glowing it's pretty

and it's it's bright and open and you know welcoming in a weird way but also it's high season it's it's high season yeah there's a reason it's high season having shot down in long island in high season you can see why you want to get out of the city when it's really unhumid but but there's an element to it which caters to sort of being pretty on the surface but also a bit you know there's a there's a there's a possible undercard of something really off there to right with the characters and the way they're sort of sort of um you know there's been a stepward wife type of thing of like everyone in the town everyone to place a bit off like they're also isolated they're wealthy they're they're aloof they're in this weird place so they don't really

connect with things in the own way and they're filled with these incredible contradictions like this idea that she's a you know fat she's has this wild like preservation of society and she's completely callous with all these other people things you know she collects objects off the beach She scorns other people. This is a scene out of the script that we shot where she's scorning somebody for their modifications. They're making it to their own thing, which is designed to actually shelter her beach and make it less erodible.

And she's in the scene is not cut out of the show. It's an extension of one scene. And she's being scolded by, by Michaela, it's total contradiction to her values, that she's proposed values. So the idea of this contradiction and making this space both kind of bright and airy in someplace that Simone would just, it doesn't want to go away from that she says to Michaela, I don't want to feel sad here. You know, she's saying that because like this feels like not like the dark prison that was her home, which was a source of like a lot of trauma and stuff and abuse.

And she was in foster care and like your mom suit. Like those places represent a certain thing and they have a certain image in her mind. And this is the opposite of that. And it's obviously a creation of both the people there and the place and it has a reason it's gravitated these people to it. And that's part of the story and part of the journey of like understanding this idea of like self sirening and self-deception. sirens are in mythology and where that myth came from. And so it has to represent those ideas of like, well, yeah, of course we'd come here. Come on.

It's just like, well, how could you resist not being here is the idea, right? Like when there's the sort of like sirening shots with people are looking at each other, you're asking the camera, it's like it's meant to be really inviting, right? It's supposed to be like, why would you ever want to leave? And that has to have that. That can be, you know, conceived as sort of pretty in its own way, but that's sort of the intent. How we do that is like, you know, the steps are designing. very pastel and bright.

A lot of brighter light, not a lot of shadows in a way to look places to hide. A lot of also softer tones, which is gray on the skin. Everyone looks like healthy and glowing and there's a certain celebratory nature of the amount of color and things like that. Trying to capture the real, like, beautiful natural light when we had it. We had, unfortunately, a lot of days. We were overcast. A lot of days without good weather, unfortunately, which can happen there.

And we didn't really have a very flexible schedule. So, like, I'm super happy that we got the ending of the show, the very last, the last two scenes. Yeah, that was, like, one of the only good sunsets I had on that, on that location. And thank God it was the end, it was the end. Oh, it was this. I was doing that when, when a while we were on the little slider on the hill and doing the closer of a milly, which is like, she has this beautiful little tweak in her eye when she's, like, both sad, but happy and relieved. And she's just doing this incredible performances.

And I'm going to race back on the crane and send the drone out to get the last two shots of the sun just going down. I'm just like, we're just like, yes, because after months on the project, that's an important thing because it also represents this, you know, capture of this environment by her

and she's, you know, taking it over, as it were, and it should feel that way. It's important to feel that way in the story, that it be this way. And if it was cloudy, it would have been a nightmare. But we had other days like that,

they were really windy or cloudy and just like, no. So it was always a bit of a battle. But you sort of, lean on the techniques that will make the people look nice to keep that brighter feeling um i used to be quite a bit diffusion sometimes by helping blend everything together that also served a purpose because we shot all see the entire mansion we shot all the exteriors on location and the interior was a giant set we built at um at our studios in new york and yeah and and that's

that's good that you can't tell because of course there's a massive backing out the side of the set that's like just 280 feet long kind of thing and it's 50 feet high and it's a it's a view of the same view of the beach and so to try and marry all things together in some locations at the same look I'm trying to balance the type of exposure or slight overexposure outside will feel from the inside to be the similar way so you can it'll always look the same like you won't know when you're on location or not is the idea so you just don't know the audience to think about that and it's pretty and also there were no blinds like there's no nice place that shears there's no courage is nothing it's like so it's nowhere to hide so we have to embrace that part of the environment

and brace that sort of nature is open to it. And that was the big part of John Pino's set design and it sort of lay accordingly. And then also making big sets with like parallel bits of sun is it's, you know, in certain spaces it's hard that we had enough space. But of course, the set as a construction that you'll just like sets that there's every room is different at different heights and so it's this nightmare trying to put all these lights to make parallel beams of sun on sets that are different distances from the backing.

and you have to have rooms, right? It was an incredible puzzle to solve, but the idea is to try and make it feel both pretty, but very natural. I'm trying to make it look like I'm lighting people. I'm trying to make it look like the most beautiful, perfect sunny day or the beautiful light from a chandelier or the beautiful type of thing

that would just make things look that way. Yeah, the one, I guess, trick, you're going to potentially laugh at me because this maybe is very common. But I used to always, when I got, I think we may have talked, I talk about my color media. I just had a guy on Reddit

telling me that I talk about the same things too often. But he didn't, he didn't just say it. He like made a joke about like how he was like, you know, it was a joke. It was a joke that nailed me so specifically that I was like,

all right, this kid literally has listened to every single episode of this. And apparently I do talk about like these four things too many times. But one of those things now is, uh, get the color meter. I would always meter the sun, right?

And then, if I need to match the sun, I would, I would just match the sun, right? And then what I just learned the other day to get, like, some better color contrast in here, and this is what I wanted to know if you do this or if this sounds correct, is I'll meter the shade, set the space light to the shade and then get the sun, which is usually a warmer, and then do that. Yes, it's actually a little.

Absolutely. Absolutely. It's absolutely what you do. Stupid. No, no, no, no, it's not stupid. But that's a, but that's a, but like, look, it also like it takes, it takes practice doing that stuff. But that's a big part of why things look real, right? Like, it's like doing, for example, like, if you know when you shoot, like, I'm trying to be a big example.

It's like, let's just say a great way to figure this out is to have to shoot something, like, you know, in the visual effects world, shoot somebody and make it, put them into the background, which makes you analyze the lighting of the space. They're not creating it from nothing. It's like, and then you will learn, well, I guess if I like with all one color, they don't fit. Like if I put, if I shoot you and put you in your own backyard,

it doesn't look right because the balance, even if I get the exposure right, the lighting color is wrong because like the skylight would be one color, the shade might be a slightly another color, the fill this side, and the sun will be done the color and you have to sort of realize well they're all different and they're also different

places where you walk in the yard. It's bounce up the green grass, for example. Like, you know, one thing that can happen in the exterior is on a sunny day, often I'm putting stuff up behind the camera, not just for the contrast because I need to keep all of the sunlight bouncing off the trees off their faces. Because I can't have all these people have too much green on their face because if I'm trying to time that out later,

I'm going to make the same, the background all ship. So like, um, like for example on, um, you know, when you shoot visual effects scenes, one of the references is a colored chart and then there's the silver ball, right? That is a great example. Like you look at, and when you think I look at that ball, what do you see, the sun, some clouds in the sky? Are they all the colors? Yes. And all those colors are also in the environment. So you realize, oh, if I'm going to make fake daylight, I need to have all these colors in this too. So, like for example, just under like a technical level on sirens, for example, I go make the sunshine. I'll be using tons and lights for that because this, you know, I might use LED ones now, these new big ones out. But, and that will be, that'll be my son.

So it's a 20K or T12 or something like that. That's my beam of sun. So now I know that's going to be about 3,200-ish depending on the lamp. I'll figure out what that is through the glass and things. So now I can decide where I want that color to be. And then I build all the LED lighting routed based on that. So if I set the camera, I want the sun to be slightly warm. Maybe I'll put the camera to a slightly off temperature, maybe like 4,000 or 3,800 or something like that. So the sun will be slightly warm. And then I'll put the sky to like four and a half, four and a half thousand, five thousand or something like that. And just see how that feels and have someone walk through. And then so you sort of think you sort of like do it by eye, but you want to have

some difference usually. In the case of the like sirens, for example, like if you have like a window, there's a shot if you want to get all freaked, uh, detailed about it. There's one shot that might indicate something that's an easy sort of thing. It's like there's a shot in the TV room. Kevin Bacon is sitting down on the couch. And it's a very little space in that space. It was very difficult because we're at that part of the set was not the part facing what was the beach, which is the big yard and all that. So this was the back of the house.

So I don't have a lot of space between the backing showing with the front yard of the house. There's not much space there. There's no room for big 20Ks and stuff. So I've got some very steep mini nines, which are like those little mini brute type things. You put a lot of parables together. They kind of look like one sort. So I can play a very high, as if the sun's very high, high noon, coming in steeply through the window. So that's my sunlight.

And then past that, we'll have some LED, I think with 360s or so broke 120s or something like that, some sky panels. And they will be like the sky and that skylight will come in the room a bit more. So you'll see that in the shades near the windows. So I'll just make sure I'll make those different If you watch shy him He's in the high over exposed Kind of bit of real Trying to look like a real sun

But you'll see in the shade You'll see it's like a different color That's because I've got those colors A bit off To just try and mimic what And then on then I got to match the whole thing To like what the backdrop looks like So then I'm like okay

Then I can like the backdrop To get the bright The highlights in the backdrop About the same as highlights on the shirt Colorwise With so LED on that And then like it's become this game To try to figure out

Where are your base is And then where you're trying to match to and the awesome create the right kind of daylight but yeah it's fun it's a fun it's a fun puzzle was solved and it certainly is a big way to hope to try and the idea is make no one think you're in a set i don't want anyone to think that one didn't want to follow the story you want to think to realize what's going on here like you know if you watch madman the blinds are closed all the time both because the stage they were in the the photograph it's like four feet from the windows and i've been on steps like that's like let's close the blinds like i don't because if we

move the camera so it's like is that a photograph on set It starts to look like, they're in wallpaper. You know, you don't want to throw the audience off. We want them to, you know, you want them just not just be in the story. Well, and to your point about it being a fun puzzle is like, it's, it was finally one of those things where, because like, obviously, especially with all you all that I've talked to over the years, like, I know there's always more to learn. But a lot of times it's stuff that like a lot of DPs learned a while ago or just it's, it becomes a second nature. And so you don't know how to ask for that. you know like how do you ask like what's something that you know that i don't know like that's not a

we're just you guys of what they what they learned recently that's my you know what i favorite things like i mean so it's like sometimes what am i what am i what i find fasting is like trying to explain something like you know and i apologize your audience because i tend to talk quite quickly and i know that so me too and uh you know but also one thing is fascinating about is trying to actually explain something may helps to understand it more right i was right i was trying to explain a camera move to a camera pretty recently about something what was wrong and I was trying to come up with a way what's the good metaphor of this and I was like what I'm trying to get the person understand is when you're telling us out within a shot within a camera move it's like

it's like think of like the audience is is getting information as it's it's like reading a sentence like yeah the man goes over here he is sad and then this happens so if you pan by too quickly to notice what the man's expression is to go to the thing that happens you haven't seen me sad so it's like you have to remember okay what is the so you want that you're sort of like telling a story like it's a sentence I thought that's a good metaphor for like thinking about when we watch a film you go oh oh oh oh like the way

if three things happen at once you don't have chance to add them up you have to space them out both in blocking or storytelling within like a scene and great directors you're like they're like they direct our attention right as much as anything else and they really know how to do that but that was one way to do that and sometimes it's like I want to try to figure a thing now

I'm like I'm starting to like explain something it's also because I'm trying to understand like how do I understand something like you ask me at the sunlight the one reason I could explain that is because I started doing more VFX work I'm like

oh now I know why I intuitively started to go like why don't the shades be cooler than the sun I just thought that made sense at the time but now I'm looking when I'm trying to match stuff but I'm trying to like a game of time I was put one one in the battle of the bastards it's a giant and I've got shots and shot in the field

the sun's different every shot and i'm having to match the color i'm like oh now i get this now i'm doing that by i go like oh now i know what will work like how to because i'm trying to retreat reality at 4 p.m. at thing that at noon and this and then i'm like okay now i got to make i've been to this location and you know in long island i need to make what that house would feel like on the stage and i've been there at least and then you know then he's like okay it helps to sort reverse engineer the technique that hopefully will make it and perceptual to the audience. Yeah.

No, it's the, that's so, I should ask more people who do like BFX heavy shows about that kind of thing. Because that's so when you have to build, because obviously on set, you have to build it from scratch, but especially if it's fake,

you know. Well, yeah, but then he goes it's not from scratch. It doesn't be some of their element either making it or it's a match to something else. Yeah. Yeah,

I just, it's that whole thing. like this paying attention it's we get so busy you know running around with their busy lives like if you just look it just you know i look at the window and a light coming and you'll see oh i can see that my kitchen floor is kind of cool the sun is kind of warm like just in my eye and it's like oh that's course makes total sense right but you know we don't you know it took someone it took the accent of somebody you remember i can't remember how it happened when the fellow to use the prison that found out of the light as different colors you know the

total calamity of just like pointing light through some bit of glass like wait a second it's splitting what like this different like it's sometimes a little accident that makes you notice these things that you see one thing and go oh i never thought it's that in the same way that um uh it's disgusting that's like the you know the using a dimmer up the good dimmer board off to light stuff and like changing things like i can subtly change a color and i like and it's not about changing the lighting so much as it but it does change the white of their eyes of it and in a subtle way and it's and some characters just come to life and i can do it subtle a way like that let's go a little tight bit cooler or whatever it is.

And suddenly their eyes just pop out of their head. And it's like, oh, that's a good idea. That's a technique. That's just like a stumbling eye one day. Like, well, I guess I can't. What color should this light be? Let's try a few colors. And then, you know, you discover something.

Yeah. Yeah, because for me, it was always thinking that, oh, isn't it great that now I can know. And this only became because I had a color meter. It was like, yeah, yeah, because I'm stupid and I need to, you know, explain things to myself in the same way. But it was like making everything match. obviously cinematography is all about contrast in any form color light yeah acting even um it was finally being you're just meter you were just measured i'm fucking up contrast i was making everything

the same yeah well you're but you're metering one source that's the only thing you're doing is you just realized there was more than one source yeah you were doing everything right if it was all just the sun but it's like oh right there's this source and then it becomes crazy what goes on really crazy when you get on certain sets or some of my friends who worked in the volume which is like don't call me on this stuff but you know then you're being lit by the screen which sounds great but then in certain circumstances even though you have the same dressing matching what was there but it's just being lit by the same color it's not the same color anymore so you have just repainting the set because it's not quite it gets really it gets really crazy when you start

dealing with light going off of certain colors uh like you know there's certain sets that are awesome but like man I have to cover up everything lights bouncing off of because that color on someone's face it's going to be a whoa and like I can't use that but in the set it's amazing so you have to sort of figure out well I have to okay from the sun coming in a dog that the floor may be too warm a light on this person or may be perfect I mean you know this there's this great stories I remember when I was just learning a bit about this when I was younger when someone is described working with Chris mangies uh who I've never never imagine a huge admire of his work but that at that point plywood bounce this idea of like it's like hey you know what we're

it would place like don't bring me the beadboard just put a plywood on the ground because that's way more like the tones of what the sun would be pounding off of and it's like I'd bounce light off some stairs in a night in a sea just because I needed something on this wall but it's like you know what the stairs are shiny that's enough of the bounce board I don't need to add

a white thing just bounce and then it's like everything in there it's the same tones of those in the room because it's just got you know like a semi-lossed finish yeah and that that story of Chris Mengies is awesome that was like the idea of instead of using a white bounce like using where it was gray or like doing like a folk doing like if you're doing like

if you're trying to make like the daylight like the one thing is in a big set like that was they translate that that's a light source right if turn all the lights off you're getting lit and now you're getting lit by what is a blue sky some trees and some grass right like just like the reality so if you put some other window you light it upright enough guess what there's something about the mixture of all those real things coming here which feels real if it was just a big white silk, it wouldn't quite feel the same side by side. There'd be a bit more green down here and a bit bluer up

here and it might just feel, if I get it from the top of silver ball, it would look like, oh, it looks like they're in the right place. And that's the kind of crazy thing. So if you use bounces sometimes, I was like, well, that's, don't use a white bounce in the brown, you know, the ground. Yeah. Yeah, they use a white bounce.

Pardon me? Do you ever use a bluff bounce? No, what's bluff? It's a guy's last name. But he He has like bounce like 12 buys, six buys, eight, you know, and he has a few of them. But, you know, it's exactly like you said. Like there's a brown bottom half. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we, like, we, I had one made for, um, show once for something. I was like, I need something a bit like this skyline. Just, it can be rough. Just give me these colors. And, uh, and, and, yeah, it can just really help. It just makes it simpler. Because otherwise I'm trying to do with lighting.

I'm trying to put blue light at the top and brown light at the bottom of that. sort of yellow and so you know it could be a great technique so yeah thanks so much for hanging out and uh we'll keep it done cheers and thanks for the show and throwing the show and hopefully people enjoy it and you do don't get sirened don't get siren i saw all right real quick though i saw one interesting this isn't about it i just thought uh online someone had an interesting point where the the title of sirens is a misnomer because it's really about a bunch of men blaming women for their problems which which well yeah but that's kind yeah which is kind of yeah which is idea of like the sirening is is I mean in terms of like the mythology it's like the call

you can't resist like someone else responsible for my actions because they've right I couldn't resist this call which is kind of like blaming somebody else for how you feel or how you do how you do or your choices right it's this idea of self several I was powerless I couldn't stop myself couldn't do it she ruined they had magic powers over me they had magic powers I just like crash the ship it wasn't my fault I wasn't negligent I wasn't you know I was whatever yeah I wasn't you know, to run away from my problems or whatever. And I think that's, for me, that's the thing that's sort of interesting is about it. That's why there's a lot of monster blaming going on there.

But also there's a lot of callous behavior, but also it's just, it's sort of like, it's a self-deception thing as much as anything else. Like, you know, it takes to the tango. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yep, yep. Nice. Yeah, I'll let you go.

Stay in touch. Oh, season. Cheers. All right. Later, buddy. Bye, can me. Yep. Frame and reference is an Albot production, produced an edit.

by me, Kenny McMillan. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so by going to frame and refpod.com and clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated. And as always, thanks for listening. Thank you.