Frame & Reference Podcast - 197: "American Primeval" Cinematographer Jacques Jouffret, ASC

Episode Date: July 3, 2025

Today we've got the wonderful Jacques Jouffret, ASC on the program to talk about American Primeval and a whole lot more.Enjoy!► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠F&R Online ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠��⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Support F&R⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Watch on YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Produced by Kenny McMillan► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Hello, and welcome to this episode 197 of frame and reference. You're about to drop into a conversation between me, Kenny McMillan, and my guest, Jacques Chafray, ASC, DP of American PrimeEpe. Enjoy. I was looking at your IMDV and I was like, wait a minute, so one music video and then the purge, how did that happen? And then I went to your camera operator credits and I was like, holy shit, like you've worked on every movie. Yeah, you know what? That was a camera operator for a very long time.

And actually, I was, that was not, my intention was never to move up to a D.P. And it just happened. But I was having too much fun as a camera operator. for many years. And working with some great directors. And then I was working for, I worked with Michael Bay for a very long time. I've done five movies with Michael as his camera operator.

And between, I think it's between with the Transformers 3 and then I did Pen and again. And during that time, he asked me, told me, you know, listen, I'm producing this little little budget movie. I don't know much about it. I'm producing it, but I don't really know much about the producing team. I'm not sure who they are. I like the script.

Why don't you meet the director and see if you, why don't you shoot it for me? This way you can do that before we do pen and again, and then you can meet us and do pen and again. I said, okay, and then I met the director. And that movie ended up being the perch. And so that's basically how my career as a director of photography started pretty much. yeah because i was uh i was looking through you know your steady camp because it's it's kind of insane because like i remember seeing gummo in high school yeah which is a weird movie to watch in high school uh but to go from that and like the one which i think the one might be the ultimate like

early 2000s action film yeah just because like the soundtrack is so of the time you know obviously Jet least incredible, but I have a very large soft spot for that. It's so funny because Gamow, people constantly ask me about Gamow. I think of the two movies that I'm being asked the most that I worked on in my career, every shoot, there's going to be someone who's going to come to me and ask me about Gamow and into the world. Sure. Those are the two movies that I'm constantly being asked about.

And then Gamow was very interesting because I just finished NYU, I want to finish. where you are to film school in New York University and just starting and I used to be in New York and I just moved to L.A. And

I could not I just could not get there and I flew and I worked with Jean-I de Scoti, a great DP and who

that I met that time. Yeah, it's, it's, I mean, people probably, you know, it'd be like if you worked on Sallow or something, people were like, so what was that like? Not that gummo's that aggressive, but it's just one of those films that certainly, you know, scars you. So there was quite an experience working with another French DP. Yeah, oh, I bet.

Because the ones that I wrote, I'm surprised, no one ever asked you about, like, Seabiscuit or even Man on Fire. Man on Fire. I'm being asked a lot about Man on Fire, yeah. I've received that as reference a lot. Yeah. Man on fire, Tony Scott. Yeah.

The, uh, you know, the, the, these conversations are intended to be like 50, 50 entertainment and, you know, education. But, uh, I feel like I'm in a privilege because, you know, I've interviewed 200, some odd DPs. Yeah. So I feel like I've learned a lot. But I imagine you working, you know, as the ACM or stuff. Did he came up for all of these incredible directors must have. The jump to DP probably was easier than most people, just by virtue of how much you've learned on all of these incredible,

you know, in many times, you know, Oscar winning or whatever films. Very much. I think it's not a standard way. I think I would say 80, 70% you know, DPs come from maybe more or come from lighting, not camera. And I think you look at it. at it in a very different way, I would say. And I think, you know, you have a tendency, I do have a tendency, you know, to start with the camera, with the camera position. And I think maybe if you

go a different way, people start with the lighting position. Not one is better than the other, but that's, I definitely, it's definitely that makes a big difference. I think the other difference being a camera operator, you understand the logistics of, this big machine that is working, that is making a movie. I mean, I do understand I have a very good sense of how long everything takes. And therefore, it gives me a sense, okay, you want to do this in two days? And I want to use that tool. I don't think so.

I have a very good sense of time and say, oh, I don't think you're going to get as much as you think you're going to get by going that way. And therefore, that informed the way I work very much strongly the way I work. I think also what I'm being told is that I have a very good sense where the camera needs to be. And not because I'm smarter or more talented than others, simply because for 25 years, that's what I've been thinking about. Yeah. So I've got a very good sense, okay, the camera's going to go there, the camera's going to go there, and sure enough, it is. So I think a lot of, I think many deep East, which you go from lighting, you have a very good sense.

I want to put it in here. I want to do this. I think I go the opposite way. I know where the camera is going to go, and therefore I know where that I think I'd go. Yeah. You know, I think, I suppose I come from the camera side,

but as I got better, I certainly set the lights first. Because, you know, it just, in my head, I suppose it just, you know what it is? It's working indie for so long that a lot of times, you know,

I'm not, I'll maybe have like one guy helping me, you know, one gaffer or whatever, or I'm having to do the lighting, myself. And it's much more like wherever it is, I just meet the light. You know, where it is, it's, it's, I don't get to structure it as much. I think, you know, you need to structure it very much because I'm not just talking about, thinking about one shot. I'm thinking about, okay, how does the

scene can involve? And what is the problem I'm going to face if the scene you're over here or over there? But how is my lighting is going to have to change or not? Do I want that or do I don't want that. So you're always thinking two or three, four step ahead, this way you do not interrupt, you know, the director's work with the actor, or you don't make them wait as long as they need, particularly when they are in a moment in that scene. So that's the way my mind is most of the time. So, you know, a scene, you know, is coming in and, you know, you already have that conversation with the director, how you want to shoot that films. What is your process? What is the style? And I call this, you know, the, you know, the sandbox.

What is in the sandbox where we are going to play? And what are the toys in that sandbox? And to achieve the look, the style that you want, is everything going to be on a dolly? Is everything going to be on the handheld? It's going to be both. He's going to be on the cranes. Are we going to do only closer?

Are we going to do only watch out? What are the toys in that? That's for me where I start with, when I start working with the director. And then, okay, so all those two are. there. So therefore, you already have made a lot of decisions. You know, that already

is going to end up being the look of your movie, the style of your movie. Is it going to be all smooth? Is it going to be all, you know, you know, all jerky handheld? Are you going to do 60 takes? Or are you going to do one take and you go and you want to change

all of those things? So that's really what I try to get from a director and then, you know, you adapt yourself. Okay. So If you are going to do a chart, if you want to go on a dolly and you expect to do 20 takes or 30 takes, okay, that tells me a lot. Okay, so I'm going to have the trouble to figure out what I want to do next,

I want to put, and where I want to put my light. If on the other hand, you know, you want to do a shot and you want to do it handheld or very quickly, and every time you say again, you know, you want the camera operator to charge the angle, okay, that's going to inform me the way I'm going to have tonight. What I can do, what I can do. Yeah, well, and I imagine, especially with your experience in action films, that probably informs a lot of, like, just how fast you're able to work.

Absolutely. And as much you, how much you want to clear the set for the director, not getting his way. I mean, I think the way I approach my work is that I am not as a DP going to impose the way I'd like to work, you know, to the director. No, the contrary, you are going to impose to me the way you want to work. And me and my team need to adapt ourselves to your style. So if you are going to, you know, to do action film, I think action film is a good part because they are very hard to make. Yeah.

Compared to a film where it's mostly two characters or three characters when there's a direct. There is so many different logistic elements that you have to take in consideration. and knowing, okay, can I put an 18 here or not? Should I put it? You know, how much trouble am I going to get? What is the best way to go about that? I don't want to waste the time. I know he's going to turn around this way.

How much time do I have? So I think part of the DP, and that comes from being a camera operator, is that we talk a lot about ADP's work, you know, and the lighting, you know, and the reference and the sensibility. But there is an aspect of us where we are logistics. How much tools do I have? What is the manpower that I have? How much time doing that this production is giving me to achieve what my director wants me to achieve?

And a lot of the work that I do is trying to figure about those two things and find where I can meet. Yeah, you know, I've been talking to a lot of DPs this past week, I think I've done like mine. And something that comes up a lot is, you know, just especially on like television shows where maybe you have a lower budget or um you maybe are on a shoot that only i eric courts was telling me he did a movie um a while back where he had not a while back it was like a couple years ago where he had like 24 days for the whole film um and i'm always interested in what like the approach is when given either um you know a modest budget or a modest timescale like what are the what are those nice to have that end up going away you know do you start just combining everything into a oneer or do you just go like you know what

one establishing shot. Let's get a bit of different. It depends. I mean, you take, for example, the first perch. The first French was shot in 15 days. Truth. Good.

Good job. And I remember working with a director when I interview with a director. And think about it, you know, that when I interview for that films, you know, and Michael wanted me to do it, I was not particularly keen on doing it. But I knew exactly, you want to shoot a movie in 15 days.

Okay, I tell you, oh, you're going to shoot a movie with 15 days. And that's basically the way I'll quote, the interview with the director. You want to do that? Okay, this is what you're going to do. You're not going to have that. You're not going to have any seat. You're not going to have video VH. We're going to shoot one camera.

You're going to have one zoom and that's basically about it. And there's not going to be video. There's not going to be, there's not going to be, there's not going to be, there's not going to be, there's not going to be. And you never going to have the time to go to the bathroom. Yes. You got to do. And therefore, you know, for me, say, if we're going to do, okay, that inform a lot of the type of lighting that I will do.

I won't be able to read out for every shot. What can I do in that sentence? I'm not going to have the time. I think also how you use your manpower. Who do you need? I think, for example, a mistake that I find low-budget movie makes is that there is a tendency, you know, so you don't have the best crew.

You know, you get because usually the pay is very low, which was the case on the purge. I mean, your low-budget movies, which is interesting because it's the low-budget movie where you need the top guys. Right. You know, because there is no reshoot. There is no rearsal.

You know, the first is he cannot take it. It doesn't even have the time to put marks on the floor. So you need the top guy who is able to do it. And yet most of the time, you know, you get the guy who just came out and that barely had very little experience. And the producer refused to hire the top guy because he wants to say $5 on the ground when you actually need the most thing. So I think camera, coming from camera,

I'm very aware of all of that. Sure. Yeah, it's the phrase that I always jokingly tell clients is like, all right, you know, it's the classic triangle of a good, cheap or fast and you can only pick two. That's right.

We don't go. You know, okay, you know, so if, you know, you work with your producer and you say, you know, I'm really, you know, an amazing first to you see, you know,

where can I lose money? Somewhere hell that you can afford that. So it's a lot of that, you know, I think it's more important to me. They say, okay, well, you know, if you want this, you know, you're not going to have the technocrine on that day that you want it. I say, okay, fair enough. This is more important to me.

Yeah. Well, just looking at your list of films, I was kind of hoping that you could maybe give some like, not necessarily bulletproof. You go as much detail as you can. But things you learned on these specific, because like they're so very, like obviously with Tony Scott, you know, that's a film, that's a masterclass there. You know, obviously Michael Bay, that's a master class. It's interesting, you say, you know, those two, and I would say, Pete Berg. Take two of Michael Bay and Pete Berg, I think, of all the three, the one that I learned

the most is Michael Bay. I mean, Michael, you know, when I did the first transformer with him, you know, I was already maybe 12 years into my career as a camera operator. but he completely it completely destroyed me and rebuilt me as a camera operator and learned a tremendous amount from Michael

and learned tremendous from Tony and Pete I think about the three my sensibility artistically is called to Pete but Tony Tony the use of the long glance in American and primeval, the constant back and forth between the long glass and the very intimate, you know,

in your face camera work. The, between the camera placement, Michael and Tony, they knew exactly all the thinking going with every time you put the camera where you put the camera and how you can get the biggest bank for the book where you place that camera. Stunning, the lesson that I've learned. will bear a graphic eye incredible just incredible the great thing that i learned with michael he would set a shot and it's one of the first director that he would set a shot and you had no idea what he would set that shot for and you realize he was not he was not choosing that shot for what was in front

he was shooting for what was in the background he was choosing his background and then you had to make work what was happening in front of it very interesting you know i think that's i think that's something that, I could be wrong, I think that's something that David Fincher does as well. His compositions are incredibly like. Incredible. I did, I just did commercial with Fincher. Really? Oh, yeah. I did, I think I would say a bit wise commercial with Brad Pitt. And extremely, extremely careful on the, on the framing when every single thing is set properly and everything has something to say visually. I think, you know, for, for, for All those directors is almost putting in one frame as much visual information as you can,

basically packing in visual information that if you pay attention to it, there is so much that it's giving to you on the story in one frame and extremely economical. Yeah, I'm always fascinated by, especially obviously being on the Indian, specifically dock side for me, sort of what not to do to main. that economy of motion and, you know, to be able to achieve at that level while still moving quickly and, you know, obviously. I would say, and that's true for many directors that I've worked for is I think I find when you shoot the films or theory, there is always a reason why not to shoot.

Your work is to constantly push at shoot, that shoot, wow. There is always a reason you're waiting for that. You know, the makeup is not ready. there is a special effect that he's doing. Always a reason. And a lot of it is to keep moving forward and say, no, let's shoot now. Or even if you're not ready, just shoot.

And I find they were very courageous directors who are willing to throw the dice. Let's walk and roll. Even if we're not ready, let's work. And you always have some kind of spontaneity and magic happening. And so I've got the enormous respect to all the director that I work for and with as a chemical operator or as an EP. Yeah, well, and especially with the more BFX heavy stuff you've done,

there's certainly a lot of approaches. Obviously, Neil Blomkin, I have, I know you were just admitted to the ASC a couple years ago. I got your, yeah, your name front and center on this one. It was funny, I was like, I'm pretty sure I've seen his name. I'll say that I went over to my little stack. I was like, yeah, it's literally dead center. I don't think they've ever put anyone's name dead center on the magazine. And Neil Blancourt, amazing director.

I was so happy to work for him and it's too bad because he's doing a project. I won't be able to be part of because of my schedule and very much the director of that level in terms of understanding directing. And it's interesting because you say you come from documentary, all of them is a very much of a documentary approach. And I would say that the kind of a film, particularly with CGI nowadays and the pre ominous of of the CGI is, I think it's becoming very, very hard to make a theme that's real. Right. And there is a tendency, we have a tendency, all of us, and myself included, of, you know, we have to go into the cartoon world because so much CGRs is involved, and we have so much

control, and maybe we have too much control. And then sometimes I always go back and watch movies, all the movies, you know, from the 70s or 80s. They say, man, they took so real. And us, you know, we are getting too much control from the camera, from the sensors, from everything, but it's always a challenge. And I'm always a challenge. I get more and more into cinematography.

Am I doing too much? I'm not controlling too much. I should let go. I should let it go. So you're saying you like sort of letting the work speak to you instead of... Yeah, it's not controlled, you know, don't accept because you can. It's not because. you can manipulate this or controlling that that you should.

It's always, you know, you know, just wait, you know, you, you know, when you shoot, you are in an emotional state and, you know, so I don't like this or I don't like that. And then you're looking at it at the time and saying, why I was obsessing about that. Right. And I should have let it go and it would feel more true. Maybe, I don't know. Yeah. Well, I remember when District 9 came out, that was, I, to your,

point about like things feeling real. I remember, I was like 20 at the time, I remember feeling like that was the first sci-fi film I had seen that that felt real because of just, you know, and I learned later obviously it was just like, we just shot it and then we figured out the VFX after, which is an insane way to do it. And that's very true. I mean, I think if you find something on my career, the director that I like is the one that are looking for that.

And it doesn't matter what is the subject matter of it. It doesn't matter if it's a romantic comedy or if it's a sci-fi or if it's an action film or if it's an interior drama. The point is to make it look as real as possible. I want the audience to sustain their disbelief and believe completely that this is happening. And Neil and this will not manage completely to do that. And that's really much the North Star are working with Pittsburgh or Michael, even if Michael did all those incredible Transformer films, you know, that are completely unreal, in a sense, are not part of our world.

But you're looking at it, and it says it feels real. I mean, the beauty of what's working with the Transformers is that it's the great way to, you know, to see, you know, how you can make a world where the main characters are cartoon. Yeah. Constable are cartoon. So let's not create the environment as

cartoon. Otherwise, it's going to look like a cartoon. So let's make everything real. And the great thing that I've learned with on this, on that franchise is all the action, the explosion, the car exploding, the building frame down. All this is real. That's cool practical effect. None of it is CGI. The only thing that is CGI are the character itself. And that is, and you're looking at it today, 10 years later, and they all have got very well. Yeah. Well, and, you know, that that is something now that you mention, like, some of the older films that I think is maybe not lost, but maybe not considered as much, uh, maybe especially with the younger filmmakers is you'll look back at like, I'm a big special features nerd. You know, I like getting the Blu-ray and watching behind the scenes. And there would always be like, like in, um, I think it might have been like the third Jurassic Park or something. There's a scene where the, the, the, the, the, one of the dinosaurs like goes running through a, you know, a city street. Yeah. And. they had built, except for the dinosaur, they had built all, you know, the car implodes like a, you know, like a flag moves and stuff.

They're like, the dinosaur will go through this. We need to put all its steps in the way. That's right. That's why. Then we do the same on the, on the, on, with the transformers. Thinking about the transcom walking in a desert and coming towards us. And then, you know, you would tilt down to the foot steps, you know, which obviously are not there, but spatial effect that set up every, some kind of a circle with,

there every time one, just to get the real effect of it. And just all of this makes a big difference. And obviously, you could do it, CGI. Yeah, definitely with the Transformers, that was the really bigger learning lesson. It's constantly everything else really that's possible. Well, and I imagine for being a camera operator as well, it's way easier to react to something than nothing, you know, the dinosaur will go through here. You go, all right, you just have a laser.

And that was a big challenge for me as the main channel operator on the Transformers. It's just that my actors are not there. You're constantly having to say timing-wise. Okay, that car is going to come in and it's going to blow through this way and he's going to reach and he's going to bang into this building and that building is got to fall apart and explode. Then I've got to tilt up, you know, to the guy when he picks up the second car and then throw it and pan and catch that piece going on.

All of it is real. You know, so which means I've got to be there when that car hit the thing. Right. That was the challenge. That was the stress. Yeah. Well, and the other thing I was interested in is you actually had probably, I think he was maybe my third or fourth guest on the show five years ago. But Tobias.

And then obviously with Larry Scher and John Sella and. Serenson, like, I was wondering, obviously learning from directors is one thing, but learning from your peers is another. Like, between like those four, at least, like, what are, what are those conversations that you have at, you know, at your level of filmmaking that, that you get to take from them and go, oh, I'm doing that in the future? Yes, and I know all the one. Obviously, I work for all those directors to buy, DPs, the other, like, I share.

and Jonathan and you learned you know I think the one that made a big interest for me is the EP

who passed away his name is Harris Harris Salides oh of course yeah and I did one movie with him I did plenty of commercial

but I did one movie with him Greenberg and he he was an amazing DP and it is really the first one

that explained to me the way it works and the way it's lighting, the way it would light and the way is thinking about it and the way it's processed. And when it talked to me, that's the first time that I say, oh, I got it. Really? Oh, I can do this. I know how to do this. And I find that when you go to film school and you take lighting class, I think they don't teach it very well. Yeah. We, I think, you know, we have a tendency, you know, when we go to film school, you know, you find yourself on a stage and you start learning key light, back, light, feel light. And, you know, they usually

press a woman, you know, on a chair, you know, just to teach you all this. I think it is the wrong way. I think it's not really the best way to explain lighting because we go from it from a technical standpoint, as opposed to coming from an emotional standpoint. And lighting is emotion. And I think what with Harris, when he started talking to me, the way he think he was talking from an emotional standpoint. And that I completely got it. I said, oh, I got it. I, now. And there's many others, you know, that I work for afterward that influenced me more. There's another DP that I regret from Nespo. I did one. I did a couple of projects with him. Is Kramer Morgan Oh, sure. Yeah. I've talked to him. Yes. And I did this movie a long

time ago called the Express. And we have very much, I realize now myself as a DP, I do a lot of what I saw Kramer doing in his own work. And I'm actually doing one day, recently. And so you pick up things, you know, and particularly all the movies that I've watched, I spend my life watching movies. I think, you know, I would, I would consider myself much more kind of a one-light DP, when you have one light that lights pretty much everything. So I think, Victoria Stararo is very important for me. Victoria is very much the type of film lighting that I have a tendency to go for most of the time.

But you pick up things with everyone, and I've been very fortunate. I think it's very, very fortunate to have been such a long career as a camera operator. I'm working with so many different DPs who have so many different way of lighting, so many different approach, and it's such a wonderful experience to see,

oh, that works. Great. Oh, I would never have spoken that. And you pick that up, you know, and it becomes, you know, in your toolkit a little bit. Well, and especially, like, when I've spoken to all of you guys, like, I find there's commonalities that I'm like, okay, I can fall back on some of these, you know, maybe they're not the most inspired when it's the same thing that everyone does, but at least it's like a safety net that I've built. I imagine it's the same for you where you're like, like you start to see patterns in the matrix where you're like all right we're always doing you know an eight by right there for a key cool i can i'll throw that in the mix yeah and i think you know you you you what's the best is when i see what i'm talking with um with a friend i with the dp and he's telling me this or that and it doesn't really make sense to me what he's saying that and then here i'm shooting and my back is against the wall

and I'm really having a problem. I'm not going to do that. And then maybe that's what he meant. Maybe that's what, let me try what he did. Yeah. Thank you. It works. So there's a small moment like this, you know.

And even a lot of time after you've done it, and maybe you failed or you succeeded one way or another. And then you talk to your colleagues and to your, and you know, I did this. I had that and he said, oh, you know what? I did that last time. Oh, that. Okay. Thank you. I'm going to keep that in my mind in the back of my mind. I'm going to use it next time. That was a good idea. Yeah. You know, it was, uh, Storoa shot the conformist, right? Yeah. Yeah. So the, you will see my work. You will see the color contrast? The conformist. That was the film.

I saw it maybe eight years ago for the first time. And, uh, that was the film that made me feel comfortable to relax a bit because I had felt like I was behind the ball. Like, there's so much to learn. There's so much to learn. And then I'm like, this movie was made in 1969. It looks like it was shot yesterday. Right. And I was like, okay, the techniques have not changed.

Cameras have changed. You know, technology's changed. But the work is pretty solid. Like, I don't have to be so, you know, nerdy about it, basically. Yeah, basically there, the conformist, I mean, you look, for example, these use of color, the color contrast, which at the time was just revolutionary, particularly when you're shooting with two films, start, you know, either daylight or tungsten, and that's basically it. So, I mean, that was shocking, and now we're doing it, we're all doing it, and thank God, because we have digital, you know, that sensors, you know, that help us doing it very easily, but at the time it was not. a big influence and I mentioned it for me

I mean the other one particularly for American Prime Evil is Days of Heaven and there's a sure I mean not for my biggest concern when I was shooting my biggest fight is don't use feel

don't feel don't feel accept the key light accept the key light go dark go dark and every time maybe I should feel maybe I should put more. Maybe I should be, you know, I say, no, don't do it. Don't do it, let it go.

Yeah, it's a lot of that. And then there's another DP that someone, when they say something to me, that to this day, it's Claudio, Claudio Miranda. Yeah. He mentioned to me, you know, like cinematography, it's just about controlling contrast. So true. So true. Just why not it's all about controlling contrast.

And I think about that all the time. time, absolutely right, just control your contrast. You want more, you want less, you want brighter, you want that, just cool that. So you know, there's plenty of things. Or another one is it's all about depth. You know, what am I trying to do? I'm not trying to like, I'm not trying to like to make it more beautiful. I'm not trying to like to get an exposure. I'm trying to light just to give you a sensor with three-dimensionality. I'm trying to work. I'm working with a two with a medium, you know, a two-dimensional medium, and I want to make you believe that it's a three-dimensional medium. And my writing and my composition and where

the press the camera, it's all about that and nothing else. It's a key idea. Well, and it's great to hear someone like Claudio mentioned. It's just controlling contrast because like sometimes I'll have to lead from behind. You know, if I have a, if I have a director who's like, you know, maybe we're shooting some corporate thing or whatever. And they're like, what, they just want it to look nice and I'm like just everything you think because I've I've had the same thing but I usually say that like film is contrast in the sense that like you we can't just be for instance actors can't just be at 11 all the time you know they need to be it's like music you know you can't just metal is not and create depths yeah mass and create depth and he said oh

it helps you because now you're not in a subjective world which means by that okay I'm supposed to do a beautiful lighting. What does that mean? It doesn't mean anything doing what is beautiful lighting. But when you say, you say, okay, don't phrase it this way, phrase it differently. No, I'm trying to make this still like three-dimension. Okay. So what would I need to do a three-dimension? Okay, I need to have separation between this background and this form. I need to keep some shape on this face, on an earth face. I need to give it a sense, you know, that there is something outside the window that is even bigger and stronger. Okay, so now, okay,

it's starting to look like something. So instead of starting, make it beautiful, you start, now, let me start there. Okay, what is the mood? What is the emotion? What am I trying to elevate to the audience? This is a cold place. This is a warm place.

You know, this is a dangerous place. Whatever it is that the script requires so that my director wants me to create. That, you know, it's, those crutches, you know, helps you. you sometimes think the problem and start in a different way. Right. Well, and especially if you're a technically minded person,

you probably don't immediately think, contrast, you immediately think, okay, sky panel, no, a stereotube, you know. And usually I try not to think that way. You know, I try to go at it from an emotional standpoint instead of from a technical standpoint. And even though I know, okay, I'm going to use this, I would like to use this, but I much rather don't expect. Press it that way. What is the emotion that I'm trying to convey?

What is it that I'm trying to present? What is it that I'm going to tell the audience, you know, before telling me, okay, I'm going to use M-90 or I'm 40 or, you know, we're going to have some XTI tubes there or whatever it is, you know, no. And actually, a lot of the time, I think the best thing you can do as a DP is, you know, play dumb that you don't know anything, you know. And instead, the best thing that you can sell is to say, hey, I need your expertise. You know, looking for STC or talking to your Gaffer or talking, how would you do this?

You know, the director is asking us to do this and this and that. And most of the time I had a pretty cool idea on the way I want to do it. And I'm always interested. How would you do that? And you'll be amazing. And he said, oh, I don't like this and don't like that, but I like that. And, you know, if you're connected to this, you know, that will only have shipped that. It's very interesting because filmmaking, and I think from being a crew member for so long,

you know, it's very much a collaborative art form. And you have, you know, you choose your film, you choose your crew, the Samuel director cast this film, this project. And we try to create a world, you know, where you see all those guys coming in and using all they have to offer. Right. Yeah, I mean, certainly for me, the first time I got like an actual G&E team, I was like I'm never I'm never doing the solo again you know your work your work increases 20fold when you actually have other voices to to either make you better or keep you from being worse uh actually that you know I know we just said technical is not that interesting but I but I I do wonder like as a as a long time camera operator when you are deciding on the shooting package for something that you're the DP of do you do you

Is your primary, because every camera is so good, is your primary concern like operator comfort or like making sure that the camera team isn't going to be hamstrung by some weird, finicky part of that specific body or whatever? Yes, many, many, many decision takes, comes to play with that. I mean, I spend a lot of time deciding

what is the camera package or the lighting package. And I agree with you, without talking one camera against another, I think they're all wonderful, their two-day's cameras I think they leave them too wonderful with a certain degree but I take in consideration

many things where the logistics where we are going to be the obviously the budget that the production wants to work with that comes into play the type of filmmaking we are going to do

in terms of we only already are we on hand out are we whatever else difference where are we shooting so that all Those are all the consideration that I take that I use that I have in my mind before I decide, you know, which camera package I would use. I would spend more time, I spend a lot more time lens-wise. Lenses are much more important to me than the camera. And because I think nowadays the lenses are the only organic element left in the pipeline.

That's one decision that gives something emotional to the frame a little bit. So I spent quite a bit of time choosing the lenses. You take, for example, an American prime goal, okay, we're going to be shooting at an elevation of 9,000 feet. I'm thinking, okay, let's have a uniform package. I don't want everything. I want everything to fit together just in case, you know, we don't have all. We need that accessory is to be at the very bottom of the hill. You know, so all of those things comes into play.

You know, so, you know, we're going to try to using Zoom as opposed to using Prime. I think I spend huge amount of money to decide how can I be the most efficient and how can it works the best for the camera team or everybody else. We're keeping in the football. Right. I would have assumed there was mostly crimes on that show because there's a lot of like, for instance, just really wide angle, close-ups, you know, a lot of handheld. There is a lot of Zoom.

I think, you know, I use a lot more Zuri that I used to before. And there's two reasons for it, particularly when you shoot in an exterior day. You know, we are all complaining, and I say all of us, you know, cinematographer's, you know, that the digital sensor is too short. Right. So we always try to soften it a little bit, and there is a various way to go about it. Either filtration, you know, and other stuff you can do it post. And, you know, it's always interesting to reinvent why are we doing the same thing over and over again.

So I come from films for 20 years on my career, I shot films, going to film school. You want to shoot primes. You don't want to use Zoom. You know, you want to be as sharp as possible, which make perfect sense, since you're shooting with a negative that's going to have to go through generation after generation. And every generation is going to get softer and softer and you're going to lose resolution. Well, now we are in the complete opposite world. Now it's completely, we don't worry about that anymore,

so we don't need to have it super sharp at the very beginning. So what is the difference for me to use the zoos where there's a whole bunch of glass in front or using a prime and putting it if you can't fit in the front? It doesn't make much sense. So I'm at 10,000 feet. Am I going to bother the first AC to run on the second EC to change the focal length all the time?

Or should I use it with rooms and leave it there? Those are the discipline that I take. Yeah, that makes total sense. You know, it's funny. It's interesting to question why we constantly do the same thing. We don't do that often. I remember working my first movie with Michael. We were shooting film, and we have an unfortunate first thing.

We were just, we cut, and he said, shocking the gate. And Michael just lost it. He said, why are you making it? What's my time? We're shaking the gate. And his point was, okay, we've been checking the gates since the very beginning of filmmaking. This is 1990.

Those cameras, you're going to get an air or a scratch and maybe 200 feet of film. And if there is a scratch, I got somebody for $200 can fix it. Why are we keeping this? Right. And when you open it up, you're going to potentially let dirt in there anyway. Greatness, you know, that sometimes we have to rethink why we're doing those things because we are so used to do it and those it may have been good

at one moment but maybe not too much now so if i'm going to ask a crew you know to carry and schlepped gears you know all the way to 10,000 feet and i say why am i using a problem and i'm putting a filter in front of it to soften it why don't i use a zoo that is already giving me a little bit more glass in front of it and it's a little bit softer those are the decision yeah well and the uh what's crazy too now is with how many lenses there are like, you know, there used to just be like a handful and now there's hundreds of choices and they're all

made by computers so they're like optically perfect. So now it's like the cheaper lenses that would a cheaper lens used to be worse optically. Now a cheaper lens tends to be better. So it's like when you don't have a budget, everything looks sharper. There's so many

incredible lenses and from the vintage you know, I use Panavision lenses. I'm pretty fitful to that and I like the characteristic the personality of each lens and that's, I spend a huge amount of time with my first day see about that.

And you get Dan Sasaki. And you get Dan Sasaki and he helps you on figuring out what you want and what you don't want absolutely. Yeah. I was going to say it's funny I watched a few episodes of American Primeval but

Obviously, before that, I just watched the trailer just to watch it. And Mark L. Smith is my friend's dad. Exactly. So I was like, oh. And it also checks out that, you know, I assume was the Revenant kind of a reference point for this show? Because it's not very Western. Yes. You know, we didn't talk too much about it, you know, but just simply because Mark Smith, you know, is the writer.

And we're talking about the same period. At the same time, we did not refer too much. We were much more into, you know, Jeremiah Johnson, then Mike Kib and Mrs. Miller. Those were our reference. And you were talking about, you know, logistic. I mean, you know, this is a miniserie. This is six-episode. I think, you know, when you're shooting a film, and particularly, I think there were

not when they were doing. I knew that I was not going to get the luxury that they had when we should. shoot when you can wait for the sun when you can well you know you can say okay today is not good you know that's not you know this is a TV show sunny or rainy or snowing you're going to shoot so I think that was by far the biggest challenge and for me on American probably all is to stay consistent writing wise when you have a weather challenging all the time and shooting a winter show and most of it have some of it shooting during the summertime

criteria and matching it. I mean, that's the difficult part of it. Well, and the other, I don't know if this was a touch point, but like in the first episode, for instance, there's that kind of like oneer that like stitched together oneer. And that was giving me very children of men vibes. Yeah. You know, I think, you know, children of men did it so well. It's a beautiful film.

We didn't talk about it. I think the reason why we did it with a winer, a wanner, and that's per Pete. And Pete already had it in his mind very much as a one shot or at peer. One shot is the true story about that massacre took place over three days. And we could not, obviously, we could not present it in the scope and the length. And so, you know, Pete went the opposite direction. Let's just concentrate it in just one shot, just to get, for the audience, to get,

okay, here's the brutality that you are facing. So that was the reason why, you know, we decided to do it that way. And in time and said, if we cannot do it, let's not try to do it halfway. It helps. Let's just make a statement. Let's condense it and let's do it just, I think it's three minutes or I don't know. exactly at the rank tell rate. Yeah.

I mean, it's just one gorgeous part of an entirely gorgeous, you know, serious. But the thing that I'm fascinated by is I always find that exteriors, the simplest looking like, whenever you're like, oh, they just shot in the sun, it's always like, nope, there was a 20-ton package. There is a lot of it. It's shocking how much gear and how much work it takes. to make it look. Oh, yeah, there was a sun there, and he just went in, and he sure.

You took a lot of it, 12 buys, you know, and the fill, and all a bunch of stuff, you know, all around it. So what were your kind of, like, I don't know if you can simplify it necessarily, but, like, how were you trying to shape the sun to achieve the look you were going for? I was always, so basically what I try to do is always where he is the sound. And camera placement, it's all about camera placement. And where can you put your camera, where you're going to get the biggest bank for the back for the longest period of time? I think that was my go-to position.

And then from then, okay, if he goes over, overcast, I'm going to be a little bit trouble. Let me get something there. This is where I can be, I can throw something that I can consistently match with the rest. And then if they go over here, you know, let's have some negative feel over there, you know, or let's have a soft sun. I think I had some stuff here at some time to time. So that's how you try to manage it to stay consistent and knowing that you're going to be

sun overcast or whatever and you're constantly aging your bed. and cut your finger. Yeah. Well, you were saying, like having a lot of 12 eyes and stuff, were you doing kind of the classic, like maybe let the sun hit direct? Because I noticed there's a decent amount of hard light,

but some of it is rather soft, which could just be overcast. But, you know, like hitting the sun and then just throwing as much neck down as possible. Right. You know, and then it depends. For example, that scene, you know, we shot it over five days,

you know, at the same time of the day. without knowing if I would have the sun mount. So hoping that I would have the sign that the sun was there, but I cannot guarantee. And sometimes it did not. Sometimes it was overcast. Sometimes it was a little bit not as intense. So you have tools all over to manage that.

Okay, you know, so I see what I've done yesterday or the day before. And I say, okay, you know, this is completely different. I had more like coming this way. So I had worked like here, you know, so we were always, you know, planning that. And on the day, and we have 30 minutes each time to do it. So we have 30 minutes. And so I tried with my data to keep a lot of tools and not knowing which one I'm going to use, depending on what am I going to get, what are going to be my contrast ratio this time.

I can go with digital I could control the color and he said okay do I need field the next day I don't need field at all I mean it's so completely different from one day to another for that scene to maintain contrast ratios over five days are you

like still using your spot meter or are you kind of focusing more on like false color tools and stuff like I think I look at it more false color tools I'd not use my spot meter much anymore and then but I really look I look more at the field when I'm shooting that it's still and I can tell

okay I'm a little bit more this I need a little bit more there I got pretty good eye to see okay that's not going to work and then you know you constantly also looking at my eye on my negative from yesterday to today

okay I'm over here I got a lot more of this and a lot less there so it's always this and then we would during the entire day on that scene we would shoot during the day and then sometime in the afternoon and around the 4 p.m.,

okay, we would all all go back to that position and replace it, start where we were coming in. And also what really help is that, okay, I'm not in the open on that section number three. So I can give myself a little bit more way. Oh, they are under the carriage, and it lights here. Because then I cannot match. It's a lot of pieces going.

Yeah. And also, I found that the night scenes that you shot were particularly pretty. How are you handling, you know, exposing that? Everyone has their own method of doing, you know, moonlight or ambience or whatever. So I'm interested what your take is. For those things, all the night work,

lots of lights, lots of big light, lots of condor, lots of softbox. So I tried, my go-to is usually tried to get a good ambience. a good ambience level with like a balloon I do not use a one I use where we call it an F1 rig

I use I think it to have a box 12 by or 12 by 12 speed rail box and I think we add at least an Android

to 150 as teratubes wow just because they're battery powered less power you need that's more important

Because of the wind, the wind just can go through. That's smart. And because when you add the fool, it would just move with the wind. So basically, and then the other thing that I really love with that set out, you don't have a stamp. It's just spread. You don't see it on the, you don't see the footprint of it on the ground. And it works out beautifully.

And you can, and usually add it at 10, 10, 15% really low. Yeah. And then I had four machines on each corner of the field. On that machine, I had two or three, three-60s, a sky panel, and then I had the rock and roll lamps on it, you know, that I can plant like this. That's usually that was my go-to, very normal, very specific on that. And a lot of it is overdone.

It's overlaid. But you have to please, you have to make sure that you've got a thick negative. I wanted to make sure that we have a thick negative for production. Yeah, yeah. So give them a little bit more. This is where we can bring it down in post.

Yeah, it's funny. I was, I just, before you got on, I just got off the phone with the team that shot Silo. Yeah. And we're having the same conversation about darkness, where I was like, you could, why not do that? And they were like, we didn't want to. I was like, fair enough.

Like, the director wanted it to be just in the toe, just the most towy. And you know what? It's interesting because we did one scene, the very first scene of at night that I've shot. And that day, unfortunately, the light on the condor broke. So I lost a lot of my ambiance and we could not wait. We had to shoot. And, but I was no concern. I knew that I had candy on the negative.

that even without that light, but post-production. Not stoked. You know, completely. And I remember my DID, we send them the raw footage. You guys, it's all there, you know, just to reassure them. But it's, you know, that's, and I prefer it that way. But you have to, you know, you have to make sure that everyone's happy.

Right. Well, and what camera were, Venice? I use Sunny Venice 2 and Red Raptor. You know, this actually, so I've been, the past couple days, I've been kind of like asking everyone about camera packages because there was like a weird owner-operator question that I had come up with in my own head. But I'm just going to use this opportunity because I have you here. Why? What is the primary difference between the Venice 2 and the. Venice because it just seemed is it just smaller or is there like no no no idea it's about the same the Venice two is a little bit smaller but the big difference is the Venice one is a 500 venice two is 800 and he has a dual ISO so you are 8300 so you can read you can set the camera

whichever you want and actually it's interesting because between the Sonya venice one and sunny Venice two you have 500 and 800 it makes a big difference in your lighting package I tell you that because I did Grand Tourismol, the Sunny Venice 2 was not there yet out, and I did the Sunny Venice 1, and I remember my Gaffir telling me, wow, I need a lot more than I used to. So that's the reason why, you know, and the Venice 2, you can use 3200 if you need to. I don't think I did it on American primary one. I think it was mostly an hybrid, but on the, um, on the, um, on the,

The movie I did after, I used it at $3,200, actually. On what, Novakane? Novocaine, yeah. Yeah. Man, you've had a great year because Novocaine was a lot of fun. Yeah. Actually, I finished American Primeval, and I went straight to Cape Town and you shoot Novocaine.

Yeah. It's so fun. Like, again, I can't, it's weird to say I'm proud of you because I, you know, I don't know you, but just like the career you've had is so much fun. I aspire to have this, you know, to have C-Biscuit and fucking, what is it, walk hard on the same C-B is, that's cool. It's interesting to work. And it's a lot that I told you, you know, I was a camera operator for a long time. I was having a lot of fun.

You know, it was not my plan, but it just turned out this way. And that, you know, we study cam and camera operating. And I started working all the time and working with those wonderful. directors and deepies and learning learning and that's the key learning constantly learning what they do and how you can make yourself better yeah well uh yeah apparently you do have a heart you're doing like you're doing just ratcheting through interviews so uh i'll let you get to that one early but um we'll definitely have to have you back on to talk about maybe novocaine and whatever else you're shooting because uh anytime anytime you know it was a pleasure and uh always

always in ike talking about the craft it's um people who are passionate about it i'm very passionate it as well about it. But yes, thank you so much for me. Of course, man. And yeah, I think I'm going to get my next tattoo will just be depth, contrast, emotion in a box, and I'll send you a photo. Okay, that sounds good. Fair enough. Awesome. Thanks, brother. Thank you so much, Kenny. Frame and Reference is an Albot production, produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so by going to frame and refpod.com and clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated.

And as always, thanks for listening.