Frame & Reference Podcast - 2: "Nomadland" DP Josh Richards

Episode Date: February 1, 2021

Welcome back to the Frame & Reference Podcast. This week join Kenny for his conversation with cinematographer Josh Richards as they talk about Josh's latest film "Nomadland." In 2019, Josh was nominated for a ASC Spotlight award for his work on "The Rider." You might know Josh from his work on "God's Own Country." For his full filmography, check out his IMDb page: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm4452305/?ref_=ttfc_fc_cr12 Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello and welcome to this, the second episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan. I'm a cinematographer, the founder of Albot Digital Cinema, a production company here in West Los Angeles, and a contributing writer of Pro Video Coalition.com for the past four years or so. This podcast is a conversation between cinematographers about the work. In the first half, we're going to get to know the guest in question. talk about their influences, how they got to where they are, that kind of thing.

And then in the second half, we're going to talk about, you know, the work that they're here to promote. Because usually that's why you get an interview is because they're there to promote something they've worked on. Which should be the case, because then we get some case studies, right? So in this episode, we've got Josh Richards, the DP of Nomadland. We had a great conversation, a lot of fun. Great, lovely man, very nice. he talks about his time at NYU, his search for the sort of classic American landscape that kind of Western films sort of sold us on. Some conversations he had with Roger Deacons

briefly, you know, you got to throw that at the head because everyone likes to know what Roger thinks. Sir Roger, sorry. And yeah, just a great, fun conversation. I think he'll thoroughly enjoy it. So let's let him speak for himself. I'm rambling at this point. So Without further ado, here is Josh Richards. Hello, so we've got Josh Richards here. He is the DP of Nomadland. And today we're going to talk about shooting the film, a little bit about himself, you know, all that kind of stuff.

It's the first episode of the thing that I've just named. What did I just name it? Frame and reference. because we're talking about the individual frames and the reference that brought us there both in life and in the film. So, Joshua, let's say hello to the people. Hey, Kenny, thanks for having me.

Hello, everyone. So to get started, I just like to talk about you. So what got you started in cinematography? My background initially, I wanted to be a painter, sort of fine art was my background I think I just realized I had nothing new to say in that medium or if I did it just seemed like such a daunting

mountain to climb you know and I was also you know I love photography and I was always snapping away and loved movies I was brought up on a lot of westerns my dad was a big western guy big John Ford and Anthony Mann and people like that But I think those things just, you know, just like a lot of us, mate, isn't it? Those things sort of all came together and film just seemed so exciting to me, you know?

Even at a young age, it seemed pretty clear that it's still such a sort of untapped medium. I got really big into Charlie Chaplin early on and then it was only when I, and along with westerns. And it was really only when I discovered people like Werner Herzog, Kenny, that I started realizing what film can really be, you know, probably a little bit more outside of the Hollywood 70s stuff I was watching, you know, it was like, wow, film can kind of, you know, truly be this powerful form of language and communication, you know, I hadn't really thought of it that way. So yeah, and then I got my eyes set on film school and some reason I was, I grew up in Penzance Cornwall and not a lot of filmmakers come out there. It's pretty,

really, you know, it's true, like, for those who don't know, that is deep, deep, south-west England, and it's a sort of fishing industry that's a little bit on its knees. So there's not much hope of becoming a filmmaker down there. But for some reason, I just got in my head, Kenny, I wanted to go to NYU, and that's what it ended up happening. I certainly applied there. Did you? Yeah, I ended up going to Arizona State, so you can guess how they thought about me.

Well, do you know what, though, mate? the whole time I was in New York, I was longing for that landscape, you know. I was like, where do I have to go? Like nomad land and these things, that's why I came to America, you know. I wanted to get out into the heartlands and I would ask my professors in New York, like, where do I have to go for this landscape I'm talking about? And they were like, yeah, probably like five states away. Yeah, I've noticed.

Yeah, well, now I'm in L.A., so it's a little less exciting at the moment. But you ever been to Colorado? yeah we lived in Colorado for two years lived in Denver down on the Colfax for two years and that was when we made the ride down okay yeah I mean it's been quite interesting how the films have kind of changed our life Kenny because after making songs I don't know I just couldn't

settle back into New York after that experience you know it was quite a long time we spent out there on the reservation in South Dakota and when I went back to Manhattan, I just couldn't feel comfortable anymore. So then we moved out into the sticks into into Beacon, upstate, which is where Chloe edited songs. And then we moved to Colorado, yeah, just to be near to the reservation, I suppose, and we'd fallen in love with the Rockies, yeah. What'd you ask, by the way? What'd you ask? Oh, I used to run the college ski club, and I've been helping do that ever since. I haven't had to pay for a lift ticket in 11 years.

I didn't obviously go this year. But yeah, so I'm in Colorado all the time. It's like my – and I get that. Like, I love L.A. I love cities. You know, I grew up in the Bay Area. But there's just something about the quiet of a mountain town, especially when it's snowing. Like, that's just – and there's also like a camaraderie that I don't necessarily.

feel in a bigger city. Yeah. Yeah. And I think for me personally as well, mate, like when I was at NYU, there's a bar right next to NYU called the Apple Bar. And I do remember one of my professors saying, Josh, there's two kinds of students here. There's those that go home and write their scripts after class, then there's those that go to Apple Bar. And I know which one I was getting. So part, what I'm trying to say is part of for me getting out of New York was also that silence you're talking about, being able to focus more and not sit around talking about your films, but just getting out and making stuff. In my career, that's been incredibly important making that distinction. Stop talking about it, just do it. Yeah, that's actually something that I've

talked to a lot of my friends about, even outside of cinematography. And that's, you know, you can spend all day reading your favorite cinematography books going on, you know, there's certainly bad stuff on YouTube but there's a lot of good stuff on YouTube like this interview and you can go on Roger Deacon's forums all day but you're not going to get that institutional knowledge from just doing it

you can only prepare so much yeah yeah and I think from Chloe's point of view as a writer and director as well she feels the same way you know I mean it really is like Kerouac said man you want to be a good writer just write the shit out of it yeah and so for people who don't know

Chloe Zow is your collaborator, I suppose, at this point. Chloe is also, yeah, we're also a couple. I see. You know, we're a partnership. And that I really have learned so much from as well, Kenny, I mean, the value of collaboration, of close collaboration like that, you know, that's such a huge part of it as well, isn't it? because I know so many talented DEPs and probably more talented ones than I

who just haven't really got the project yet. Sure. Do you know what I mean? You must know a lot of people too, mate. You know, you can tell that there's so much great stuff out there visually, but if you don't get this, you know, if a story doesn't come your way or if you're not finding collaborators, you know, it's tough.

That was a, I reached out to the old internet to see what questions they would have for cinematographers if they had this opportunity. And a lot of them wanted to know about, like, literally just that. Like, how do you find jobs? How does that even happen? You know, jobs don't grow on the joby tree. Yeah.

Well, film school had to be my route. You know, I'm not sure I recommend it. But yeah, I know how that feels. You know, I was in London. No doors opened for me. I just couldn't, you know, I had an undergrad film degree of creative writing. So I read scripts for months. for money.

And that I have to, that would actually be my advice to cinematography. It might sound weird, but get really good at reading scripts, you know. You know, we're concerned with the language of cinema as much as anything else. You know, we want to start there, don't we care? You're not with the more cosmetic things of cinematography that comes later. First and foremost is building that foundation of how you, what is your language, How do you want to make movies? Maybe you're a DP that can, you know,

is a chameleon and can fit into every different project. I knew quite early on that I was of that. And so my advice, the way I thought of it when I was at film school was I need to come up with what my language is. And I need that to be recognised support of people. And I, so because I want to be one of those DPs where they say, you know, it'd be great for this is Josh Richards, because of what he does, and that becomes recognized.

And then they can back on that. What I mean, Kenny? And I think that's quite valuable to people when they can see your fingerprint. I think that's huge. I've seen, especially these days, a lot of people will put out their reel, and their real will be,

it'll be like, I can do commercials, short films, blah, blah, blah, blah, and instead of really focusing on creating a look, they will show the project like oh look I did I made this mistake you know all of my work was in fashion for the most part fashion in music videos and then I got one short film and I put that at the head of the reel and I sent to a guy who I had worked with who was impressed me I've worked with a lot of British companies for some reason send it over to him you know P and Co the company clothing company wings of bound mate yeah I mean I'm about I've been in for 12 years, mate, so I'm pretty much America.

Fair, fair. Welcome. But, yeah, I sent it to a buddy of mine who lives in the UK and he just sent back, like, delete that first part. I was actually, you know what? I'm saying that backwards. I sent my reel to work for him. And he said that he sent me reply. I said, we're going to use you.

I want you to know that I shut off your reel in the first five seconds. And it was my wife who watched the whole thing and told me to turn around. and call you. Oh, cool. And it was just because I put the thing that I thought, I was like, oh, like if I put this crappy clip of this short film I worked on, people will know I can work on short films. And it's no, it's if you have a defined look,

that people will want that for their project, whatever it may be. Yeah, exactly. But, I mean, reels are tough, though, aren't they, Matt? Especially when you're editing your own, you know, and being kind of objective about it. And, yeah, Reels, I don't know if I ever made a successful one either, to be honest with you. You know, I think what happens with those is the risk that happens to all of us as cinematographers may. And I do think it's, yeah, getting too cosmetic about things.

Sure. And do you think with that, as you know, with commercials and like that can make you money, but do you really want to be that? I mean, you know, a client, the amount of times a client's come up to me, Kenny, and said, can you make her look prettier? And I'll never get that part of my soul back again. Yeah. Yeah.

You do have to make up your mind about, you know, there's a lot of things, aren't there, to consider when deciding on your language and how you want to work. You know? Yeah. Do you have a, I know you're saying you watched a lot of like westerns and stuff, but is there like a specific look influence like for me i you know i i'm not speaking as an individual here like i think everyone's enamored with the guy but finchers cinematography you know what he kind of imposes on on his dps i i've always thought was boring in a good way like it's always

just so perfect and then i found out you know obviously how much work he's doing in post with split comps and deleting lights and boom poles and all this but like um that idea of start from perfect, I always thought was important in some way. Well, that's interesting, Kenny, because I'm probably the opposite school of that. As much as I, again, this is what's cool. Like, I look at Fincher and I'm like, love it. The softness, the, yeah, there's a character to his films that I think is stunning. I'm just not going to be able to do it, you know?

Sure. I knew that early on. And I'm like, and also that the technicalities of that excite me far less than for me personally if I'm out in a landscape with a face that I like yeah and that's why I discovered for me and then you kind of just keep chipping away in your you know in your own in your direction and there's people who guide you for me it's probably Tarkovsky okay awesome I look at his films I'm just blown man like you know um I also saw a and I was I was talking to Roger Deacons recently, mate.

A good old mate, Roger. Yeah. Sir. Sir Roger. Sir Roger. Call myself a Brit, man. But so, no, he said the set, he was like, yeah, because he said, I want to get to understand Tarkovsky more.

And I thought that was really cool. You know, it's like, I feel the same way. I like watching stuff that I don't quite understand. You know, I feel like it's making me grow as a filmmaker. And I also watched a lecture that Tarkovsky was doing, mate, where he said he, if a shot, if someone, if someone said, oh, that shots like that shot in this film, then you wouldn't do it. Yeah.

If the shots being done, I'm not doing it. It needs to be completely new. It needs to be for the story. It can't be like another movie. So there you go. That's completely different way of thinking about film, you know, when compared to someone like Tarantino, for example. So, you know, there's a.

so many ways to do it in this art in this medium isn't that yeah well and that's a thing too that i think uh like i i see a guitar back there are you a musician in any form or you just have a guitar yeah but so i i'm a drummer and i've always thought like there's something in my head that music and and cinematography or like or filmmaking and cinema and music are or intrinsically linked and one of those things was like when you're playing guitar and your favorite musician uses a certain pedal and a certain guitar so you buy that stuff and then you sound exactly like him

and then you lose complete interest because you did it but then you kind of go back a little bit later when you've got your own thoughts and you're like, I don't actually like that pedal. I don't really did you find yourself doing that with cinematography where you were copying first and then it was like, all right, I'm done here?

Yeah, yeah, because that, well that's what you do in painting as well, Kenny, you know, your friend of it is just going to be copy, copy, copy, and then that's how you understand the technique. Now, what do you want to do with it? So, yeah. I was more, I didn't kind of go with it in a technical way, though. You know, I wasn't like, I'm more just like watch Chris Doyle and just try to absorb that, the freedom of what he's doing or the boldness of Lens choice or, you know,

I'm more just influenced in that way rather than like, How do I achieve that thing? You know, I suppose I'm not, you know, I'm probably a bit more on the Jackson Pollock School, do I mean, mate, than, you know, anything too intricate in the way I approach things, if that makes sense. Sure. I've noticed in sort of your body of work,

there's a lot of naturalism. You know, Chikovsky is probably the answer there. But how do you, how do you, this will dovetail us into the project you're here to promote, but how do you embrace naturalism? How do you use available light, you know, are you like really grip heavy over lamp heavy or what's kind of your approach there?

Yeah, definitely grip over lamp. I was forced to embrace it, though, can you know what I mean? So we were all starting making films with no money and, you know, and no equipment. But also, yeah, like you mentioned Tarkoski and also obviously Nestra or Mendros and like Robbie Ryan is a, you know, great,

uh, uh, Acapul, you know, all these guys really led the way for me in terms of natural light and kind of going, oh, okay, well, I love how these movies look and they're not using lights, so I'm good, right? You know, Malik's been doing. And I just honestly love it and I just no day is the same, you know, you can never quite plan what it's going to be, you know, weather is a sort of a common enemy that like unites everyone isn't it in a weird way sure found that a lot of the dramas of the film set kind of go out the window when we're all chasing

the sun there's definitely something to be said for uh you know obviously you want to enact a plan but um yeah that common enemy thing definitely like get stops arguments if you have too much room to think you'll you'll start to bite each other but if you're going to stop people start going inward don't they me me me yeah landscape and the weather it's like no no no the film remember the film so it's really helpful that way you know yeah um so go ahead well i mean we could talk all day about natural light in a in a sense but i kind of i also realize talking to you mate i need to i need to I never had like mentors in cinema talk either, did you? No, no.

Yeah, like we're quite alone. You can quickly feel quite alone and in a void, can't you as a cinema talk? Because you don't really, I don't know about you. I don't really, I don't know any other cinema talk because I don't really hang out with other filmmakers, so sometimes I could probably do with a little more camaraderie and learning from my peers a bit more, or just feeling like, yeah, we're bouncing off each other because for the most part, it's all happened in a vacuum, really. Yeah, no, I'm exactly the same way.

There's, I know most of my friends, like, I'm lucky where all my friends from college moved to L.A. with me, and, you know, so we've known each other for 12 years, and we were all in film school. So, but no one, I was the only cinematographer, you know, a couple editors, couple directors, whatever. So even when I make stuff, they're like, oh, good job, and they don't watch it, you know, the classic, the old classic. But, yeah, I think I know one cinematography

He lives across the street from me. His name's Johnny Durango. Damn, man. Yeah, great name on Johnny. He's already on his way of the name like that. Yeah. He got Director of Photography.com. No.

I don't know how he pulled that off. Wow. I mean, it's a strange relationship, though, as well, isn't it, between us? D.P. filmmakers in general, you know, you can quickly, it's the first thing people say, oh, you should meet my friend who makes movies and lardy die. You just think, not really, no. Yeah, yeah, or they're like, oh, my friend directs movies. Oh, really? What did they direct?

Well, right now they're writing the script, but you should shoot it. Yeah, that's the one. Yeah. Dude, I've got a script. My friend's got this script. You should, it's good, yeah. My buddy, uh, my buddy, you should really, it's great. He's really funny. Take it to your director friend who just won an Emmy. Yeah, we have to take it on the chin, don't we? It's like when I was doing creative writing, every pub, everyone's got a film, you know? Everyone's script and a story.

They just haven't got around to it yet. Oh, man, in L.A., there's definitely, I can count probably twice off the top of my head where I was in an Uber. Inevitably, you know, what do you do? Cinematography. Oh, you know, if you look in the behind the seat there, I got my script. Really? It's so cool, though.

I love it. It's about that thick, you know. Have you edited this? Yeah. But I was going to say so we can get to talking about other people. So talking about Nomadland, this is a story about Francis McDermott. What's going on in her life in the movie? Well, Fran plays a character called Thurn, who,

is widowed and has also left her hometown of Empire, Nebraska, which has actually been discontinued. It was a sheetrock factory, which means in the middle of the desert, right by a Burning Man. And believe it or not, once that factory shut down, that meant that was it for the town. And anyway, Fern leaves Empire and starts finding new purpose on the road across the American Heartlands.

meeting other nomads and bouncing off, you know, other people on a journey and kind of learning that I'll stop it there, mate. Fair. So it sounds a little, maybe not dire, but a little more serious of a film, potentially. I hope it doesn't feel dire. I mean, it certainly deals with grief and loss and it deals with being in a world that you don't belong in, that you don't feel you belong in anymore. However, I mean, our approach on it,

it was that it feel like a, a spiritual experience somehow, or a, this sort of feeling of like, you know, what Malick's been exploring in his films somewhat, that Byrne discovers herself in this landscape, you know? And so it does, you know, the book that it's based on by Jessica Bruder Nomad Land, you know, I mean, it really, really is challenging our kind of societal norms in terms of like the way we live, you know,

the house, mortgage that we get, you know, these things. And then in America, sadly, you know, we have this generation, sort of baby boomer generation, predominantly women, just possibly even more troubling. We find themselves having worked their whole lives and their social security is nothing. They can't afford us. They have no choice but to do what they're doing, which is to live your sort of transient lifestyle as a nomad. And that can sound dire and bleak, certainly.

And I think we've seen that movie. What Chloe wanted to do was challenge the other thing. It's like, well, actually, perhaps there is another life to discover in those golden years of your life when you don't need those societal norms. Perhaps by letting go of them, there's a new kind of freedom and identity to be found. I mean, there's certainly, these days, a lot of people across the spectrum doing a lot of soul searching, you know, so I can, that's definitely an important message.

How did you go about designing the look for the film, just kind of overall? Were you playing kind of on principles that you had built over the years with the other films, or what was that like? Yeah, absolutely. You know, there was definitely a common language that Chloe and I have developed together. which is why I'm saying those collaborations become so valuable because you're so much of the work's been done you know and it's unspoken so it was really kind of amazing like thinking back on conversations I would just say I was thinking the camera could move more with done in this film Chloe what do you think she's like yeah great do it and she just sort of trusts me to to to run with that obviously I'm never going to do anything that she hasn't first kind of come up with. But I'm just, I'm, I just know what she likes, mate. Do you know what I mean?

So I'm a suggestion. It's never treading on anyone's tones because I'm starting with, what would Chloe want? And it's, and, you know, the groundwork's been done in terms of working with non-actors as well. Because there's a bunch of those in this film, right?

Sorry? There was a bunch of non-actors in the film. Yeah, all our nomads are, you know, first-time actors and never, never been in front of the camera for the most part. And so, you know, that changes everything, Kenny, doesn't it? That's when, as cinematographers, you put the tools aside and you think about the approach. So with this being the most important thing, this being these lived in true to life, I wouldn't even call them performances sometimes.

It's like people are literally sharing their stories with us on camera. and it's like are you really going to stick a silk in front of their face and blast them with a you know it's like no you're not going to do any of those things obviously i mean it's enough that the camera's observing them that's it that's all you get and so um that changes everything you know you work you really work backwards from that point yeah so it was like a hybrid documentary almost certainly mate yes yeah nomad land i guess they would turn that sort of hybrid Chloe and I run out of ways of describing it in a way, mate, because honestly, I don't see that much difference

with when I've done documentary work. In fact, if you think a documentary is more true than, I mean, most documentaries, mate, are no more true than the most elaborate fiction. They are edited, they are shot, observed. People are acting a certain way because a camera's there. The edit, the filmmaker has a point they want to make. So, you know, it's structured in a way to make you, what's the difference?

If anything, a documentary could be more manipulative because the assumption is that you're watching someone's truth. But the edit can absolutely warp people's meanings, words, anything. Michael Moore, I find him a kind of a dangerous documentary filmmaker because he does that. And it's like, look, you're asking me to trust you, man, I shouldn't have to. you should just give me the facts you know yeah and it does it very tongue in cheek as well it's like he he's assuming you know but not everyone is as as educated of a film viewer yeah exactly yeah like turning around on charles and heston in bowling for columbine for example you know there's a it's clearly one camera yeah it's shot like there's two so they shot michael moore's reaction

after the fact that's some that's what we did on nomadland oh okay you know what i'm saying it's the same thing. But obviously what's different is, no, no, Josh, but in the film there's a script and there's, you know, yes. But as we both know, when you start doing a documentary, there's definitely a map of what you're trying to say. So I would just challenge the labels a little bit as well. I would also argue quite an interesting thing happens when you approach people with these films, because like on Pine Ridge, for example, the Lakota Indian Reservation, They are sick to death, mate, of people coming there and filming them, you know, with a long lens and, like, guerrillas in the mist, you know, like... Right. Like, oh, look at you. You still exist. And they're just, like, rolling their eyes. But then when we went in and we were like, the reaction was really doing a documentary.

And then we're like, no, it's a movie. Do you want to be in it? They're like, totally. That's awesome. What's it about? So it's actually, there's an empowerment that happens. And actually, I would argue that they settle into it. and you you it's really a collaboration i i really enjoyed it mate and found it deeply satisfying

to make films with these people in this way well and i've always said like uh people everyone likes being on camera whether they say it or not what they don't like is being exposed they want to be celebrated anyone does and uh i think in a documentary setting there's danger of being exposed. But if you have lines or if you have a goal in head, I think you can work towards being celebrated. How many takes were people asking for? Yeah, well, again, with this approach,

you know, usually Chloe would start with the nomads or the first-time actor and ease them in. As you say, you're right, it does. What it does is you, like Carl Rogers, the clinician, you know he came up with this thing of like therapy and the ways to ask people questions and he said a really interesting

and I read it before doing Nomad Land because he said like you need to look at people as the expert of their own experience and I was like that's so awesome in exactly what Chloe's trying to do because if you can write for that person and if you can write for their story

they will be it you know once the camera comes onto them It's just, it's perfect casting. Chloe's just done it backwards. Kenny, she just started with the character and then wrote the script for that character and that person. Yeah. So how did, say again?

That's what makes it possible. You can't do this and then try to get swanky to act a certain way. That's unfair on swanky. She's never pretended to be an actor. You know, she said, oh, she was going to bring swanky. And so, yes, it does empower, it does. celebrate her. In fact, that's what Nomadland is meant to be, in my opinion, mate. That's certainly what I was thinking behind the camera is that we're celebrating this country, you know?

How did the project influence your gear choices? Were you just going with what you were familiar with? Or what was that like? Well, I approached it almost like three different films in a way that we're kind of folding into each other. You know, there is this documentary element to it certainly in terms of totally spontaneous things that are happening but Chloe has created a kind of parameters around that for me for us to work in because that makes sense like it's an organized chaos if you know what I mean sure and then there are straight up scripted scenes between fran and david stratham they have two actors but now it needs to look as spontaneous as the other stuff though it needs to feel like the same movie

doesn't it? Yeah. And then there was this kind of movement through the landscape that the challenge there was it just can't feel like a travel log, can't feel like postcards. It's like how do you make it emotional, right? So in terms of equipment, those three different things required different equipment for the movement. I went with the Ronin too. I don't know if you've used it. Yeah. Yeah. And I was liberated, mate. I don't know. I don't know what they're going to come out with next.

thank goodness they figured it out because it was great on nomad land i had it ready the whole time with the mini and and a mirror just on the car so any one time there was two cameras for me to just grab in whatever situation do you know what i mean so it was um a really rigid language as well that chloe and i came up with so with one word i'm like okay it's on the ron go you know so very nimble and very quick way of working that made those sort of magic hour hustles possible Yeah, because you were shooting a lot at Magic Hour, right? We did, mate, yes. Again, it was always just disgusting emotion

and where's Fran in the story and what, you know, and I was influenced by those Hudson Valley River school painters like Beardstad and people. You know, it's those, the sublime American landscape, the mountains and the ethereal glow in the distance, and it feels like the sun's leaving us behind. You know, there's this decay in the foreground, like a fallen tree or dead buffalo or something and you just feel like yeah that's the journey west

like that that influenced it you know and then um sure ropes of wrath and john ford movies and um yeah and and we watch happy together on set actually we did a little screened happy together which was cool kenny it was just the crew it was like guys we need let's just encourage each other to be as creative and free on this as possible because look how this fucking movie is Yeah. Did what was your what was your lens choice? So we shot um zyce ultra primes which yeah that was just from um Chloe falling in love with them on the rider it wasn't really a question and and keeping it very limited you know 32 16 25 or an 18 you know it's really three three lenses how important uh this is a loaded question because I definitely have an opinion how important is

staying to three lenses over having a full kit of zooms or an eight lens kit or having any option you want? Well, I'm sure we agree, mate, that these limitations are what's going to create the language and look at the film, first and foremost. They create anchors in the story as well that, you know, when we lead you, there's so many different landscapes in this film, Kenny, that was, as I saw at the beginning, maybe I was wrong, but that I thought was my biggest challenge was I had to anchor the audience in these places.

I think the lens choice really helps with that as well. And too many options is that is a danger to any artists, I think, isn't it? But nevertheless, it's still the hardest thing to do, I think.

Keep it simple. Well, and I think to, you know, the more, obviously the more work you do, the more easily you can think of a lens and just like stand in an area and go, yeah, I know what this look like on a 23 or 32 or whatever um the most important thing to us was yeah as you know people like deacons have talked about forever you know it was keeping things wide and close you know

inside the action very much personal yeah intimacy you know and getting almost as close to people as i don't know what you think about this though though the way i approach cinematical as well i'm trying to get is I'm trying to communicate the way I see the world. Yeah. So I don't, when I hold my fist, I can see, here's my periphery, right? It's actually a pretty wide angle. You know, when do you ever really see anything on a Zoom lens? Yeah, no, I'm definitely of the mind that like, I've shot almost everything in my career

between 18 and 35. Okay, cool. Yeah, I'll hit a 50 for an insert. Yeah, a Mac. right in yeah okay cool we're on the same page man and and i would argue because it was cool i asked deacons when he watched fargo now would he change anything about it you know what would what would what would he do differently and one of the things came up was that he might be a bit wider with things and then we then we went into a conversation about what like trends of cinematography

and what what it means like more modern cinematography do you know what i mean mate and i and i do think you know we look to films like The Revenant and we look to some of these bolder choices in cinematography it seems more geared towards immersiveness doesn't it and and yeah like this empathy machine as people describe cinema and so I'm on board of that man and I actually watch a lot of like real world gaming stuff

I don't know about you I'm a gamer but I watch it I'm dude I mean that's what cinema's up against the market And if kids are playing that kind of, I mean, it is beautiful what they're doing now, isn't it? I mean, I stopped playing computer games after Goldenite on the N-S64 because I was an addict. But what they're doing now visually is so exciting, I think. And on those streams, the production value is really high. Like, I've been producing a couple live streams for some friends and not like gaming, but like live like this. And you really got to like up the over, like my Photoshop skills been put to the test, man.

you got to put cool designs that stuff well I mean that the way these these you know back to Zelda and things like that just the way you're just the games themselves yeah the games themselves the visual language of the game this immersiveness of a world that you just walk around in and that's literally the point of the game

yeah there's a couple good like a lot of film let's see last of us last of us two god of war there's a handful of games that like reach out to cinematographers and go like we're going to put the digital camera in your hands, the iPad, and you film this scene. Like, God of War is played as a one take. Really?

The whole movie, or the whole game. Really? See, that sounds, that's, dude, to me, that's the Vanguard. Like, if we're talking visually. Yeah, it's stunning. It won a ton of awards. But getting back to your project, see, the problem with, I've noticed with talking with other filmmakers,

other cinematographers, is we never want to talk about what we did. it's always like what's what's the cool thing that I just saw um one thing I'm trying to do on the podcast is ask each cinematographer to highlight one of their favorite shots and highlight something that was particularly difficult so you can walk us through the problem solving um so whichever one you'd like to start with uh the floor is yours if you can think that quickly well a difficult you know what's the hard about these questions as I feel like I'm drawing attention to my blunders. Not necessarily your blunders,

just something that particularly was a challenge that you were able to overcome. Not necessarily if it was like a bad shot or anything. Okay, well, it's a good lesson because, you know, there was a shot towards the end of the movie that I just knew was a dolly shot. And, but I opted not to take a dolly because I just knew I'd never use it

other than just maybe this last thing, right? and I got to the shot and I was like, it's a dolly shot, I said it was. How am I ever going to be able to do this shot with the Romenon? Close light, you can do it. Anyway, I did the shot and it's, you know, I can barely look at it now, but it's okay. It's okay.

And the stabilizations are great things. Yeah. Would you say that speaks to, because I definitely know this happens to me, that you should go with your gut nine times out of ten? like that flow state i just made the decision it probably would have meant a bigger truck do you what i'm saying it was like okay so it's the it's the rhone in orbit it's the bringing in the dolly or keeping things super tight and i went to the latter i think it was the

right decision actually i do i i you know that was the spirit of it kenny if you keep adding things like that before you know it you haven't stripped things down at all why don't you just throw a few hmIs on that as well i mean and now you've got a truck full of lights and you might end up using them right so you know it was I wanted to really limit my resources

you know so sure no I believe in that so same question on the other side favorite shot in the film something that really excited you or just like I think I've just got to go with close up man of

because that's what I love dude about I mean that's what I love about cinema, you know, Bergman's quote, it's the art form of human face. And I love the way, because it just brought everything together, like the way Chloe and Fran worked together, when she stood in the doorway at the end of the film, there's a close-up of Fran. And I just love everything about her face. And there's a critic that described Fran's face as a national park. She is a national treasure. She's a national treasure. He's a national treasure man.

And I mean, that's something else to talk about, Kenny, is, you know, I mentioned it earlier, but when we, when it comes to lighting and makeup and dealing with, you know, on certain projects, obviously, you know, you want to make sure you have the actors back and, you know, they need to look a certain way. However, on a film like this, man, if you're not celebrating the lines drawn in people's faces, then you shouldn't be shooting it. Yeah, I describe that, especially I do color work on the side. And I always say, do a buddy a favor.

You know, if you see like a pimple, doesn't need to be there. I know how to get rid of a pimple and resolve. But like, if you've got, you know, a craggly face and it's supposed to be craggly, like maybe a little bit of midtone detail to heighten that the way you light it, you know? I just think... Lines are beautiful. Yeah, and I remember at film school, I don't know how cinematographer was for you.

I mean, it was amazing. I didn't know what an F-stop was when I arrived at NYU. So Sandy Cicill, Tony Janelli, Peter Stein, Tom Richmond. Like, they, they, I just owe so much to them. They encouraged me endlessly. However, I do remember some discussions. We're watching a scene.

I won't say which film, but there's a scene where the actress has a particular vein that kind of, you know, to her vein, it petrudes a bit, she's emotional. And it was a discussion about, is that a mistake on the cinematographer's part? And I felt really strongly about it. Absolutely not.

No, it's beautiful. In fact, the scene was about her remembering when she was the beauty queen at the prom or something. So the more wrinkles, the better, isn't it? But you know what I'm saying, mate there's a sort of go-to thing sometimes in this industry and and with cinematographers where you're not thinking you're just making something pretty and yeah that's dark man because you know that's definitely i think uh early in their career cinematographer move is to just

make everything a pretty shot yeah what is that often yeah you know is it is it three point lighting is it supposed to look like it's on stage you know You can teach you people in lighting, do I mean? And, yeah, no, it's tricky, mate. I mean, I also feel, like, what was I going to say? Because Deakin's talked about it a lot as well, man. You know, the sort of the cosmetic trends we're seeing in cinematography. You know, and it troubles me a bit because it's being led by the commercial industry

and music videos. Yeah. It's not coming from storytelling. Yeah. Well, we, I literally could talk to you for another two hours about this kind of stuff, but we got to wrap it up. So just to end it, you know, I like to ask, you know, what advancements excite you about cinematography?

You know, what have you done, especially during this year that's helped you creatively? And are you, do you have any more personal projects or anything on the way? Sure, yeah. I'm excited by all the, the fact that these cameras are getting smaller and smaller, you know. It's like that, Francis Ford Coppola prophecy back in the day. Remember that? Yeah. I am. YouTube and that's where we are, mate. And I am on board, dude. I am. The more smaller these cameras can be and the more people can make movies and then look aesthetic, you know, look cinematic. It's so exciting, I think. you know, 10 years or we'll be watching YouTube, mate. In fact, even

now, I just watched something the other day there's a little girl in Pine Ridge just filming a horse in a, outside her trailer home, this beautiful white horse, it just runs off into the badlands and it's like one of the coolest little short movies she'd ever seen. So I

think, I'm excited for the like, yes, the sort of professionalism to get broken down a bit and then we can really start taking off as, you know, an art form. totally yeah so um what's the last part uh personal projects anything that you're doing that you enjoy you know photography other movies music whatever yeah well i've been writing and um chloe you know i've been sort of setting up other projects in the future and um sort of generating our own material really

um so i think i'm going to take on ocean escapes next mate which might be horrible idea You know, I grew up by the sea So yeah, I'm excited Let's try and how do we I was so inspired by this film Leviathan Not the Russian one The GoPro one on the fishing boat That's exactly what I'm talking about, Katie

So yeah, pretty exciting Awesome Well, I also grew up like I said in Bay Area Next to the Ocean so I will look forward to that Well, so for Athens, mate, fingers crossed You never know Yeah Well, thanks again for being the first guest

on frame and reference. I really appreciate it. And to everyone listening, you'll hear us next time. Thanks again. So once again, thanks to Josh for having that conversation with me. I had a great time.

I hope you did too, listener. I will say he did mention how Tarkovsky influenced him, and I realized that I hadn't actually studied any Russian cinematographers, especially not in college, but even recently, which is an oversight on my phone.

part. So I went and got his book sculpting in time, which you can see right here if you're watching the video version. If you didn't know, actually, I should bring it up, frame and reference comes in three formats. You can read it at provideocoolition.com. You can watch it at YouTube.com slash owlbot, O-W-L-B-O-T. Or you can listen to it. Hopefully, that's kind of what you're doing now. It's available on most any platform. But any who's a sculpting in time by Tarkovsky here. I'm going to really enjoy that because there is a sort of documentary style, I'll say, cinematography out there that I briefly studied and then got really more into more formal cinematography myself, even though a lot, most of, almost all of my early work was

very documentary style. So I was doing that more intuitively and not as an educated cinematographer, as it were. That came later. But enough about me. Once again, thanks to Josh for having that conversation with me. Thanks to Pro Video for distributing this. And thanks to you for listening. You will hear us in the next one. Frame and reference is an Owlbott production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. Our theme song is written and performed by Mark Pelly, and the F&R Matbox logo was designed by Nate Truax at Truex branding company.

You can read or watch the interview you just heard by visiting provideocoolition.com or YouTube.com slash owlbot respectively. And as always, thanks for listening.