Frame & Reference Podcast - 20: “Shiva Baby” DP Maria Rusche

Episode Date: June 10, 2021

On todays episode of the Frame & Reference Podcast, Kenny talks with cinematographer Maria Rusche about the SXSW 2020 select “Shiva Baby.” Maria has shot 2 seasons of the Showtime series “Couples Therapy” and is about to debut the film “Dating and New York” at Tribeca Film Festival 2021. Maria is also an adjunct professor at the NYU Tisch School of Arts where she teaches cinematography. Enjoy the episode! Make sure to check out Maria’s website and follow her on social @mariaruschedp Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello and welcome to this another episode of frame and reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and today I'm talking with Maria Rushi, DP of the film Shiva Baby, which premiered at South by Southwest last year and TIF and premiered and premiered theatrically in April. She also worked on season two of Showtime's couples therapy. She got another movie coming out called Dating in New York. So doing the work. And also as an adjunct professor at NYU, the Tisch School for the arts. So an absolute wealth of knowledge. I feel like I refer to too many people as having a wealth of knowledge. I need a thesaurus. But in any case, I had a great, great conversation with Maria.

You know, it sounded like we were both cut from similar sort of nerdy cloths in regards to our love of sci-fi. So we got to get into that a little bit. And, you know, I got to learn some tips from her, because let's be honest, when you have someone's job as education to come on a podcast that is ostensibly about cinematography education, that's going to be a good episode. but yeah I think I think you're all going to thoroughly enjoy this one so without talking too much as usual I'm a shut up here's my conversation with Maria Rushi I like to start every podcast just asking like how did you get involved in cinematography were you always a visually oriented person you know not incredibly but I I went to film school because I thought maybe I wanted to be an editor. And when I got there and saw that, you know, there were other options of, there were other departments, basically. Basically, I saw what the DP was doing and that role is really the, you know, collaborating with the director and then turning around and actualizing that vision with the crew by leading and delegating. And I grew up playing team sports, and that really made sense to me and was a slot that I fit into very well.

Um, so I started doing that. I started in lighting. Um, so I worked as a gaffer, an electrician and, um, and, um, and shot tons of short films and kind of like worked my way up that way. Um, but yeah, that's kind of how I started in cinematography. It's, uh, it's actually great that you say that because, uh, I, I've been having this conversation with a handful of my friends about, you know, there's a million kinds of two kinds of people, but the one that I keep running into is what I've called athletes versus academics.

So, which you could say jocks first nerds, but this is more applicable. And I think like every job, especially now that you can look things up, you can research, you can listen to a podcast and get the knowledge, the academics, which I consider myself one of, I was not necessarily an athlete growing up. I did snowboarding, but that's not a team sport. The academics have more velocity into careers, but generally I have found fail because they don't know the team aspect. So what sport were you playing? I played soccer was my number one, but I played baseball as well. And I think that's totally right. because I've been teaching actually at NYU for a few years.

And I always tell my students, you know, I think it's not my original idea, but I think D-Ping is, you know, a third aesthetic, a third artistic, a third technical, and a full third managerial. You know, the job very much is understanding interpersonal relationships and how to speak to people to communicate what you need to communicate and how to interact as part of a team to get things done. I mean, so much of the job in prep obviously is spitballing ideas, all that sort of fun stuff, camera tests, things like that. But once you get on set, if you can't delegate, you can't lead a team, you're not really going to be able to

execute your vision. So I think that's, I guess you'd call maybe a soft skill that's somewhat harder to teach academically. And that was something I was really trying to bring into the curriculum because I think it's crucial, yeah. Can you give me sort of a maybe a primer to how you approach that, how you are able to articulate that to students? Like here's what we're going to try to learn here and kind of maybe some analogies that you may use to get the film kids on board because I'm going to assume like the film school that I went to, the social skills are not great, especially in college. Totally. Well, I mean, I start off the class kind of setting that as the context and as the tone and kind of explain when I was in film school. It sounds similar

to your experience. The classes were very technical, really tech forward, and it gave, I understand in hindsight why that was, because that's what they think you're there to learn, how to use the equipment. But what I think it actually did was tell students that if you're not a tech, you know a tech um what do you call like tech focus kind of person yeah like if you're not well versed in the tech then you're not going to make a good dp and i saw a ton of really talented people not go down the path of cinematography because they felt like they didn't see themselves in what was being presented to them so i always start the semester by basically telling that story and saying that, you know, managing a team, like, you can, you can produce great work

on your own to a certain level. And after that point, you need to be able to work with a team. You need to be able to delegate. And if you can't do that, like, this maybe isn't the job for you. But you can, you know, you can learn how to do that, obviously. But that means in a lot of our exercises, I try to incorporate the element of running the team, and that's kind of like part of how they're graded on their assignment. So, for example, one of our one thing we do by the end of the semester is shoot kind of a one or two shot idea. And part of what they're figuring out is not just.

just how to set up the lighting, but the cadence of how you shoot a scene. And that starts from the blocking rehearsal. And that starts from how do you communicate your idea to your team? And that's these prep materials. You have an overhead. You might have a shot list that you're showing your team in reference images. and then these folks know kind of what your goal is and that way you can communicate with them about what it is that you're trying to execute right so that becomes as much part of the

exercise as like this is how you set up an HMI this is how you run power things like that Yeah, I will say that the other end of that spectrum was I'm pretty technologically minded and that I went to New York Film Academy before I went to college and New York Film Academy like people have different different opinions on it. But as a high schooler, I did their like six week program, invaluable. Then I got to college and very tech forward and also very hands off it felt. They were kind of just like this is Arizona State and the school had just started the film school. So they're probably still finding their footing. I don't know what they're doing now. But, you know, our capstone was really like, all right, build your crew.

Come back when you need us. Huh? You know. And so the making everything tech minded gave me a huge false sense of competence that I did not have. You know, I was like, I know how to run a camera. I should be able to make a movie. No. Totally.

No. And even so, I definitely struggled with that. when I first started, especially because I think as you're learning to light specifically, you start to get angle and you start to understand like the relationship between quality and intensity or color, but you can't quite articulate it. And so you really just want to move the light yourself because you're like, I just need to, I think, go a little bit this way and you want to move yourself or you want to like stick it up, stick it down. yourself and that doesn't you know you reach a point obviously where you you can't do that well sure

the union will get in the way well that too um when you came up in the lighting department where were there any like things that you remember specifically learning that you were like oh that's that's changed the game for me or was it just kind of a sliding scale of knowledge that you sort of inherited. I would say mostly the latter because I as a second child find it invaluable to learn by watching somebody else do it first, especially because like the pressure is taken off a bit. But I was, I worked kind of on a lot of union jobs as an electrician for a couple years.

and that was a really actually crucial experience for me because it really demystified a lot of the tech, I'd say, and a lot of this fear that there was something that bigger budget movies knew or had that I didn't know. And what I realized was that they are using the same principles that we've learned, you know, a larger source is still going to make a softer light, they just knew how to do it very efficiently, and they had more money to have maybe bigger units or bigger rags, but they didn't, nothing about the principles was different, and that was

really, really a light bolt moment, I think, for me that gave me a lot more, help me build my confidence in lighting and in shooting. Have you always worked on the East Coast? Have you ever worked on the West Coast? I really mostly worked on the East Coast. I have really mostly worked on the East Coast. I have done not much on the West Coast. Um, and, you know, as, as you know, it's like all of my jobs are word of mouth. So, um, that has kind of just been where the web has, has expanded after NYU. Um, but that's, that's been the bulk of my experience. Well, I was, I was going to ask if you had, um, if you had noticed any difference between the sort of shooting styles between the two, uh, coasts or,

maybe between even New York and Boston. Have you noticed like a crew difference as you've perhaps worked around or is at all the language is the same no matter what? You know, I know other people have noticed that, but I haven't noticed it a ton. I mean, I was working in Alabama recently and we had some local, a local Gaffirn in Kiegrip. and they were excellent. I mean, the communication style was the same as what I had been used to. So I haven't noticed an incredible difference.

Sure. Have you? So I know I've only worked in L.A. So couldn't everyone's, you know, L.A. is definitely what everyone says it is. but it's also kind of, I feel like it might be the same in New York. It's like it is kind of what you make it. I think probably the downside to L.A.

is it's just so spread out and it's so difficult to network in a sense because it's hard to have a friend group that isn't the same group that you work with. You know, and also people move here specifically to work. And so you end up with a lot of folks. Like I'm not from here. I'm from the Bay Area and of San Francisco area.

And that there's a documentary, a great one called Fog City Mavericks about all the filmmakers that came out of or made their mark in the Bay Area. And the big thing there was like when they're done working, they would go hang out with their friends and talk about other shit. And that doesn't really happen down here. And I think that's a detriment to people working because then they just kind of become erotic. Totally.

I do. I've definitely visited L.A. And I have to say that was something that sort of scared me about L.A. was that everybody seems to be in the film industry and talking about the industry. And I appreciate the friends I have here who are either not in the industry or just the friends that we are able to talk about. other things. I think it does give you, give a good balance and perspective to be able to kind of step away a little bit.

Well, that's where all the stories come from, right? I mean, the most, the most head up your ass thing you can make is the film about filmmaking. Like how many of those have we seen? We're just like,

all right, yeah, good, good, fine. You know, how many? That is true. Yeah. How many shit, adaptation? Like, that's a good one. I know. I was, it's funny because I would just watch adaptation for the first time and I was thinking of

that one and I was like, yeah, but they kind of like did a good job. But besides that one, every other yeah. When you were, when you were coming up or like just kind of finding your feet, were there any specific influences that you had or any films that you were like that, that's what I want to do? You know, I, I felt a little kind of absolutely kind of absolutely. of place, I think, in film school because I was not a traditional cinephile, so to speak. And I... Oh, me neither. Trust me. Yeah. I always loved comedy and sci-fi growing up. And, you know, they seem unrelated,

but I think that they both involve kind of like world building and a, give you an opportunity to to think about a an idea or like an existential you know topic in a fun way and i really like that really um was the that really helped me like that really worked for me comedies and like have I really worked for me. And I just didn't, I felt definitely a little embarrassed in film school to not care that much about Citizen Kane. I was literally about to say that. Yeah, totally. And, but since I, you know, in the time since then, I've, I've gotten a lot, obviously more um okay with my own taste and and and i always i mean i i loved um i love like bill pope's work and career i think is like iconic i mean yes 100 percent the matrix is my

favorite movie uh and he also shot scott pilgrim and clueless are you kidding me like what a combo i literally when i started this podcast i was like if i could have bill pope me and me and um josh richards i think me and someone were talking about i was like if i could get bill pope on this joint and just talk about his career i would be set for life yeah i mean that's it just shoot the shit and i mean cosmos even he shot like what a weird sprinkling of all my interests in one. So I, yeah, I basically I've, yeah, I've gotten more kind of, I found a other people who have the same interests that I do and value that. So that's been really great. Yeah, if you could not till I'm in the exact same boat.

I recently just started like finally going, okay, let me start attempting to eat. Because, you know, I, I really want to watch the Matrix, men in black,

the Phantom. Did you ever see The Phantom? With Billy Zane, Catherine Zeta Jones. It's like a, it's like a pulpier Indiana Jones based on a comic book. It's,

it's fantastic. It's super like, not dumb but it's just it's very well made but it's it's kind of corny um but i love it uh but i never yeah i was never watching basically if it's on criterion i didn't see it so uh now these days when i'm a smarter filmmaker i'm like all right i can actually like we just watched the red shoes the other night which is not something i would choose to watch on my own volition but my girlfriend is a dancer and so she i bought a bunch of criterians and she was like you bought the red shoes i was like I did let's watch it and I can appreciate it now you know I can not only am I as an

adult more willing to watch stories that are not built for me but um sort of uh take them apart you know as a cinematographer were you able to go to the uh matrix 20th anniversary screenings no and oh no actually beside myself because I was at another I was at I was watching parasite at the Nighthawk and we came out of the theater obviously incredible movie and I look at the marquee and it says like the matrix at midnight or something and I almost I had a fit I like didn't know about it somehow um so that was deeply upsetting but um I just watched it again at home so it was uh so I think I saw it for like my birthday came out like in the summer right around when my birthday was and uh this is just going to rub dirt

in your wounds but like i remember sitting and of course it's in the like um not iMacs but like the Dolby vision like the full redo and there were just little things that like you don't pick up on on either the VHS or the DVD back in the day but like opening scene right you're flying through the matrix code the black behind it it's more code like there's more there's more there's more there you could also tell how cheaply most of the sets were were built the the hotel room that trinities in is clearly just at the very beginning just clearly just like painted plywood in a box like there's no uh but that shit makes me excited i'm like okay well if they if it's the story like it just reinforces like it's the story that matters if you can get away with that and still have it be

this iconic or just stealing the set from what was a dark christ not dark crystal the rooftop set They just stole that from a different set that was that was filming at the same time. Why not? Fuck it. Looks good. Yeah. Was, yeah, that fantasy, I think fantasy films especially can spark joy in most filmmakers. I would hope.

You know, who watches Schindler's list and goes, I want to make films? It's like, okay, kid. Yeah, we worry about those kids, but they inspire us. for sure. No, I totally agree. And I mean, I think that's also, I'm sure that that's how some people relate to the world, obviously, right? But I think what I have come to realize is what I think of as art, I guess, or what makes an impact on me is something that makes me understand something about life or about myself. And just personally, it's usually comedy or or sci-fi for me because you're able to explore, like, a premise like,

are we living in a simulation? That is meaningful to me and helps me kind of learn about myself. Well, M2, I feel like the further away you get from a representation of a current reality, the more willing you are to give yourself to the idea as being presented. I think that's exactly right. Yeah. I think that is exactly right and why, you know, it's sometimes more difficult when it's an exact representation of reality

to project anything else onto it. Because you're so specifically watching exactly the experience of, someone for example instead of being able to kind of project all these other ideas about what's happening like you can onto something that's not hyper realistic yeah what were some of the uh the comedies that you grew up loving i did uh famously um interview for harvard senior year and tell the gentleman that my favorite film was Anchorman, I didn't get in. But that was, I did watch a lot of, I think, like, physical comedy I really enjoyed.

I mean, the Coen brothers, for sure. Yeah. For me, it was my not getting accepted thing was saying really early on. I was like, I love Kevin Smith's movies. I want to do that. And everyone went, well, you're not going to do that here, kid. Yeah. You will be doing that somewhere else.

You can do that on your own. That's what he taught you. you did teach us that yeah if you really need to do it do it yourself um yeah anger man's a great one though do you do you uh when you're lighting because you've um what's it sheva baby is a comedy right i would call it a comedy or maybe like a dark comedy dark comedy yeah very i love a dark comedy we love that we love that yeah i mean it's funny because that it's it's is a I thought a very funny script when I got it but it's um I had seen the short I didn't shoot the short and so much of the humor is this kind of uh serious situation and the

the context beneath kind of what they're saying and and the characters and so I brought in actually a lot of like dramatic reference when I met with Emma because, I mean, we looked, of course, or we talked about a serious man, but really, I remember the first images on my, like, mood board I showed her, basically, were from shame, the Steve McQueen movie, which is a deeply unfunny film. But what we were kind of looking at was how to set up. this sort of more dramatic maybe environment and take it very seriously and it was more important to use the camera work to show the paranoia and the anxiety because the comedy would come from

the performance opposing that or from the dialogue in in that within that environment rather than shooting it more traditionally like a comedy yeah so what what sort of obviously it's different for every setup and every scene but like what was kind of your go-to sort of lighting setup lighting package for the show for the movie so we um so we designed basically the lighting for the first half of the movie to be daylight you know we still wanted to feel a little dark in the house, but we looked at this movie called Las Erederas, which is a, I think, Argentinian film that has a lot of, like, really beautiful kind of dark interiors, daylight interiors. And we referenced that a lot, and that meant a lot of M18s outside the windows.

and using like a light mat or something inside to wrap what was coming into the windows. And, you know, just to like back up slightly, this is why I make sure I'm involved in the location scouting portion of the of the prep process because, you know, it's crucial for us to have basically a ground floor. location because um we couldn't afford lifts or anything and um and enough kind of windows for motivation for lighting within the space so in the first half of the film that was usually daylight units outside um but then you know we spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to make the visual language progress as we go on and and and just not feel so stagnant inside this one location for the whole film and one thing we came up with was having it get warmer as we went on and I you know talked to the production designer a lot about how to motivate that

change and that was partially like lighting candles or turning lamps on closing curtains things like that um so once we started doing that you know it was a lot more practical motivated warmer sources and that was that was a lot of like light mats in the air inside the light mats are getting huge these days. Like I remember when they first came out and they just weren't powerful enough to do anything. And now every single DP I've interviewed so far as using them. Great, man.

Yeah, I mean, it's so crazy to think about how we made soft light before that. Right. Because it was a nightmare. I mean, I remember working on shows, I mean, and using them myself, like hanging, like a 1K with a chimera on it or something. It's like that shit's so heavy and like

takes much room gets so hot, uses so much power. But I do think I, you try to use them for what I think their best use is, which is to me a soft light that can like wrap a maybe slightly harder key light. I like to put muslin on them for that purpose because I think that the texture just feels

a little bit more natural. You're putting muslin on the light mat. Yeah. So you got to go, man, they are powerful now these days. They're powerful. They're powerful, especially the series too, which is what we had on Shibaba baby was they got a good amount of punch. but that's the thing is you don't need that much out of that wrap unit

it's really just to smooth out the key light are you a big two things that I kind of seen a lot of people this is not like a divisive question I just framed it like it is top light and catch lights what's your opinion some some DPs are very like I never want to see a fake eye light in my thing and they'll lot of people are like, I'll put that little aperture right on the top of the mat box. Call it today. Totally. Yeah.

I mean, totally. It's, it's tough because, I mean, I love an eye light, right? Who doesn't? But I definitely try to design the, the blocking and lighting so that we're getting one naturally, if it makes sense for the scene. But sometimes it doesn't. And sometimes it doesn't work that way. but, you know, on a shot a movie called Milkwater, that recently came out as well.

And we, our lead actor, you know, it's tough to get light in his eyes sometimes. And I ended up using something I never thought I would, which was just basically a little candy bar. And like trying to catch on, catch a little bit of light from whatever he or Phil we were using. reflect a little bit of something in his eye and it it we needed that to feel uh his performance a little bit more he wasn't a zombie exactly yeah but um but i think i definitely prefer a an eye light that is working because that's where the lighting is set um you know ideally the the fill for example is in the direction that they're facing. So you're catching a little bit of something in their eye.

So I'm rarely adding a little LED light to the top of camera. It's kind of the last resort, I'd say. But yeah, I hear you on the top lighting. It's interesting kind of just as a, like raising ambience a little bit to instead of, instead of having like a more specific filling in it you know more kind of a brush stroke lighting I guess and I guess I'm finding that I think partially because the cameras are getting so sensitive

that I'm needing it less and less so when I do use it it's usually like a fill unit, maybe up in the air or something like that. Or just motivated by whatever's up there. Yeah. Because yeah, that's the interesting thing I've found is so recently, recently yesterday, I pulled my XL2 out of storage and I was goofing around with that and I have shot 16 millimeter before and both things reminded me like,

we used to have to be so careful with how you lit things, but also way more power. Like I think the XL2 is rated at like 160. So it was bright as hell in here and it still looked a little too dark. And now it's like if you, if you're 1% up on the back of the LED unit, it look like your false colors go out of whack. It looks crazy. It's I'm one like, do you find it harder to light? Did you ever shoot film? yeah i learned on film um and i think it's invaluable for understanding exposure just because

you're forced to and i've definitely noticed with my students like if they're not forced to do something you you won't do it right you'll take kind of the short but totally as far as kind of the the lighting differences um it's it is interesting lighting for a more sensitive camera, you know, and just in terms of controlling what you're seeing, what you're not seeing, right? I mean, now you're seeing everything. And I don't know, I think it's exciting because there's, you maybe don't have to use such powerful units.

And it's maybe a slightly like a democratization of filmmaking. but I'm trying to think how it's, how do you feel like it's influenced how you light? I've found that at first, I think this would probably be more like what your students would say, at first I thought I could light with, not reckless abandon,

but I thought I could be less precise and still get away with it. I'll bring that down in the grade, the info's there. But even, you know, one stop up on the skin makes the skin a little peeky and doesn't look the way I want. And so I found myself, I think I was getting a little too fire hosy with light.

And I was like, okay, I just bring it back, bring it all back, using a lot more Neg. Now I've asked a few DPs about that. Like, do you find yourself just flying like 12 by dovy and just like, all the time. Oh my God. Kill half the set with it. Totally. Yeah. We're, I mean, especially on Shibba baby, we, I typically am.

you know really vocal about it's not going to look dark if the walls are white so what are we going to do about this but we the had white walls and that worked out because you know we did a number of productions on things to kind of still keep it feeling darker in there but I was absolutely having our key your tape duve to the wall like all the time anything off screen had kind of do you tape to the wall or like the ceiling a lot of times. Because totally, you're, you're needing to remove a lot more light than you would have. Well, and it's that funny balance of like, it needs just enough where the shadows aren't noisy, but not too much that, and it depends on the sensor, obviously like, I primarily shoot cannon

and they're very finicky. They want everything in the middle. you know, Ari, you can get away with a lot more up top. What was your, what was your shooting package on Shibba baby? We shot with a, oh, actually it's a good question. I'm like, did we shoot in here? We shot on the Alexa Plus, four by three sensor. We got a package from Panavision.

They've been like incredibly supportive since I was in a film school. they hook it up for sure and were able you know I kind of was pitching them on like this movie takes place all inside a house it would make the movie to have anamorphic lenses for this like it really would make a huge difference for us what do you think and they got us a set of kawa's and that I think was crucial for making the house feel both like it was kind of caving in on Danielle at times but also we had I knew we were going to have a ton of shots with multiple characters in frame like playing off of each other that that was going to be a lot of kind of composition or blocking interaction.

And I wanted to make sure we could shoot, you know, a three shot without having to be on like a 25 or something and just feel no depth, you know. I'm doing the Star Trek composition. Yeah, exactly. They're all like everyone get in a row and we'll just kind of like look down row. Um, but, but totally, I mean, that I think, um, really was crucial to me in, in, um, helping, you know, tell the story through Lenz choice, which is always a struggle. Yeah. Well, plus you get, I mean, going back to the idea of film school, you do, you do anything to raise the production value and some sick anamorphicsle sky up that up that budget look yeah i mean you know of course we wanted to be sure uh we we looked at like um we were testing like some crystal

express uh lenses as well and they just looked insane uh and it's like i you you don't i need too much yeah i needed to make sure that that it wasn't going to distract or like totally morph how someone's face looked. I knew we were going to be so tight on Rachel so much of the time. And so in testing, I did a lot of testing with Rachel's face and looking at the edges of the lenses and also looking at like a three shot and how crazy it looked at the edges.

And we ended up only shooting the kind of climactic like scene where Danielle freaks out and her parents like sing to her. That was like the only scene we shot on the 40 because it's it is so extreme in its look. And I didn't want you to be thinking too much about that. during the most of the movie. Well, that's the, what's his face? The Wes Anderson look, right? He just has, he shoots everything on that, that Primo 40, I think. Good for him.

I mean, that, that is, that is a, is a lovely lens. And I think a spherical 40 is, is the butter zone. yeah a spherical 40 really does something nice for me but um but the cow a 40 less well and the other thing too is like if you were to if you were to go super modern like the um what are the master anamorphics there's like no character to them so it's like well at that point just shoot spherical and go wide because like what do you jj abrams you really need that flare in there You can have a flare, man. How are you going to sell it without the flare?

That's what goes in the trailer. Yes. Just flare, flare, flare, flare, drone. I would have watched that, though. In high school, I would have. You've shot a lot of commercials, right? I have, I do shoot commercials. Yeah.

I would say I shoot primarily narrative, but I'm lucky enough to kind of fill in with commercials, which is great. How have those, oh shit, I thought of a different question. All right, we'll jump back around. How is your narrative work compared to your, not like the work that you do, but how do you approach shooting commercials versus narratives? Is there a different workflow? Because obviously you have to be faster.

Yes and no, I'd say. Okay. It's just because the, I think a lot of, I think, a lot of the commercials that I've done, you know, the process of approval through client is just totally, totally different than my experience has been shooting a movie. And, you know, I'm sure if some, like, studio execs are giving their feedback, maybe that's more similar. But, but no, I mean, there's on commercials, it's just the process of getting things approved is a lot more difficult so it's been just a lot like more it's everything is

storyboarded um and any there's not much room to change that once you get to set and realize like maybe this looks a little bit cooler um which is fine i mean i am happy to kind of execute the vision and I think it's um I think it gives an opportunity to to work with more like big equipment I suppose which is sure is is helpful to kind of try certain things out or um yeah really kind of execute something very specific um So, yeah, as far as kind of like the differences between working style there, I'd say sometimes it's even a little more comfortable than features timing-wise. I have found the schedule somewhat more, you know, comforting. sure is it is it kind of like a thing where because there's not maybe this is kind of a

maybe an obtuse way to put it but like there's not as much creativity in a commercial because it's so pre-planned and you know like the car comes here we have to see it we have to see the logo boom boom boom and you can knock it out versus a narrative piece where you there's a lot more conversations about like oh what you know the what ifs are like how is how do they feel here whereas ford is like we want to see the car totally yeah i mean it's somewhat more straightforward right and somewhat more of an immediate um uh an immediacy to to it because which is is also fun because you have this shot of the car coming in that you are trying to nail and you nail that shot and you got it and like that feels

very good. And that feeling is a lot more drawn out, I think, on a feature because you're coming up with these ideas so much farther in advance, and then you're spending time like shooting other stuff. And when you finally get to that moment, maybe it's changed a little or maybe you improve upon it. But you're just not getting that immediate gratification of like we shot the thing the way that we meant to shoot it yeah sure the question i forgot about was do you have any tips for shooting uh in a white-walled room because i'm sure a lot of uh students i'm sure um you know whatever apartment they're going to film in uh is going to have white walls that's a tough one because i do think something i i often say to directors too is is you know

we can shoot um a on the most expensive camera that we can find and we can shoot you know a trash can and it's still going to look like a trash can so what's in front of the camera really has to look good before it's captured um but i mean that being said you know there are things you can do with production design think like you were mentioning um if there's There's ways you can fill the space of the wall with something like a lamp that breaks up just the white wall and gives you a little bit of a gradient or gives you just a point of interest I think really helps. Another thing I do a lot is use a lot of control grids. and I feel like in L.A. they call them like... Honey crates?

Yeah, yeah. What was the other thing you said, it cut out? Modifiers or something. Oh, sure, yeah. But there's like a, they're, the control grids for light mats or for, I always have them for like four by four diffusion frames too. I mean, those are crucial in controlling soft light all the time, but also in a room like that. I think those are your best friend, for sure.

And negative, like we were saying. Yeah. Oh, honey crates is a brand. What do they call them? Egg crates. So they make, like, soft words. versions of those that are like 40 degrees or 50 degrees that are a bit longer and they'll like snap onto the light mats or onto your your 4x frame and like they're amazing yeah no that's a great point because especially to like I guess that would replace in some ways the the barn doors of your just a lot of them I mean that's exactly how I teach it is like if The goal of soft light is to spread the light rays

and have them bounce around as much as possible. Well, we're putting tiny little barn doors every inch on this light so that it can be directional, but still, it's still a large source and still soft. Is there anything that your students have taught you that surprised you? That is such a good question. I love seeing the democratization, basically, of filmmaking,

which I think has happened more with cameras being accessible at a lower price point. And I've been really impressed at the, I guess, visual literacy of the kids coming in because they do understand, I think they understand kind of coverage or what they want to see in the frame pretty well because they've been shooting videos on their iPhones since they were 10, I guess. So that's been interesting to,

check in with. What do you think is the sort of top one or two things that you're consistently seeing that students today need to improve on? What are they missing? Because I've always wondered how like sort of, I guess you would call them the YouTube generation, they know so much. We all know so much because of people have shared things on YouTube or elsewhere on the internet forums, a lot of great forums out there.

But then there's those institutional, knowledge is, knowledges, that institutional knowledge that you end up missing. Yeah. You know, I do think that, like I was saying before,

there is a tendency for all people to not do a thing unless you need to, or not learn a thing unless you need to. And so much on digital cameras is, is manipulatable by like pressing a button you know you can like make it brighter or darker and and that's why I have them shoot on 16 to kind of start because oh that's perfect I do think it's it's still crucial to understand exposure and understand the elements that go into creating an exposure and being able to measure your lighting or at least look at a monitor, like monitor literacy, like being able to understand what your

scopes are telling you and how that's interacting with the camera sensor. That's an area where I think since they're not forced to learn it because they can turn on their camera and like get a nice image by opening or closing the iris or like pressing the iso button um i i think consistently that's that's an area there um one question that i that i ask everyone uh is well there's two but i start with this one um is there a either a life change or a piece of equipment maybe or an educational thing that happened to you or that you own or whatever um that you can point to that you think most helped you in your career less far or at least not number one most but like just that kind of comes off your head um that is a good question i i think that

um i hope this answers your question but i think that um i think that um i hope this answers your question but i think that realizing that networking could just be hanging out with people who you think are cool, who you get along with, was really a game changer for me because I, it's so much, as you know, so much of the job of being a DP is meeting people and kind of, like, they need to call you to work. can't apply for a job. So you need to be called and so people need to know you. And I, that's, that really not only helped me enjoy it more, but it's, it just, I've been brought to, I think, all of my jobs, basically, especially my features, by people who I've gotten along with who've recommended me, basically.

And that has led to the best projects because I'm putting in effort with people I get along with. And that has led to being recommended to projects with people I also get along with because it just makes sense that people you like will introduce you to people who are also similar. minded, I suppose. And it's really worked out well because Emma is one of my very good friends now. I mean, she lived two blocks away from me while we were shooting Shibba Baby. And Morgan,

who directed Milkwater, is also one of my very good friends now. And she lives also two blocks away from me. And that's just made all of this very rewarding because you, You need to make movies with people you care about and want to see them succeed because otherwise you'll make a bad movie. That two blocks away thing must also be the New York magic. There's no two blocks away out here. There's no blocks. That's two hours away. Yeah.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but tell me if you agree. The other thing I think that's important for folks listening, it's important to meet people that you want. want to be friends with. It's important to hang out with them. It's also important to not treat those relationships as if their work leads. You're not mining people for. Yeah, treat them like people. I think it can be very easy, especially out here, it's very easy to like meet people and be like, that's my director friend. That's all they're good for. I will only talk to them when it's work time. I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. And I think that's kind of the shift that that's part of the shift in thinking that I was talking about because I stopped. I mean,

I, I made sure I wasn't seeing people as a way to get somewhere. And I think that networking was pitched like that a lot to me in film school. And I'm sure I just, I just interpreted it that way for sure. But I think we all do. And I think it was pitched to all of us the same way. Yeah, totally. because I just let go of that. And I was like, I focused a lot more on who I actually got along with and who was fun to hang out with or talk to. And it's so much easier to keep in touch with those people because they just become your friends

and you like DM them a meme that you saw that you both like. And it's not, it doesn't, it's not just a business relationship. you know it's it's building a community of people you get along with who also want to make cool stuff yeah uh yeah that's perfect um second question probably the easiest one anything you want to promote um totally she have a baby is in is available on vod right now um and milk water which was one of my first features shot three years ago that is a, say, dromedy about a woman who meets an older gay man at a bar and agrees to become a surrogate, hoping it'll give her life some purpose. And it's a super funny, heartfelt movie. I really love that one. And I actually have

another movie dating in New York, which is going to be at Tribeca. And that movie is kind of a, it's a more classic rom-com in structure. It's about to, you know, folks in their early 20s who meet on a dating app and decide to try to be friends with benefits. Will it work out? Who knows? but it's more kind of surreal in style so we had a ton of fun kind of like creating these more magical realism moments and that one I'm very excited for for sure very cool well thanks so much for spending the hour with me I really enjoyed that conversation that was a lot of fun

Yeah, this is so great. A fellow Matrix freak. I love this one. Frame and reference is an Owlbot production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. Our theme song is written and performed by Mark Pelly, and the F-At-R-Mapbox logo, was designed by Nate Truax of Truaxe branding company. You can read or watch the podcast you've just heard by going to Providiocoolition.com or YouTube.com slash owlbot, respectively. And as always, thanks for listening.

Thank you.