Frame & Reference Podcast - 200: "The Threesome" Cinematographer Sing Yam

Episode Date: July 24, 2025

Bringing in the big 200 we've got Sing Yam, Cinematographer of The Threesome which premiered at SXSW earlier this year!Sing's work includes Henry Johnson, Sweet Dreams, 9 Minutes, and a litany of commercials and music videos with artists like Eminem, Billie Eilish, SZA, and Action Bronson.Enjoy!► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠F&R Online ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Support F&R⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Watch on YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Produced by Kenny McMillan► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Hello, and welcome to this episode 200 of Frame and Reference. You're about to drop into a conversation between me, Kenny McMillan, and my guest, Singiam, DP of The Threesome. Enjoy. title is a little misleading which is kind of like strategic in a sense um if i mean you remember when i first got the script i was like i had my preconceived notion of what it was going to be and i read it i was like oh okay that's not what i expected at all um which kind of drew me to it actually it's uh it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a messy in a fun way yes but also it has a lot of heart it's it's it's very uh i like some very very grounded characters like you feel like i think i don't

know how old you are but it's like 35 um yeah so i'm like 39 i've been able to like you know i've gone the relationship i'm like okay i can relate to why these people like in what they're going through like they're the version of something that's happened here that's happened to me yeah yeah yeah minus the yeah i got to see yeah i even went to air as own estate and you know no no sale dude how did how did you guys get Djibuki um that one you know and chad just what through casting you know and jabuki that she talked about some interviews about like what attracted him to the script because he you know a lot of you know i feel like a lot of roncons will have like you know the gay best friend

show but usually the gay best friend to the female right well and he's like eventually the first script where I've written where I'm like a gay best friend to the straight male leave you know like is that like I'll like like what attracted him he also just said the same thing just like like the script you know I think a lot of modern day rom-coms kind of has like a perfect bowtie ending it's like somewhat bubble gum in a sense and he just felt like you like more grounded like I don't feel like a capture as much so I think that's what I attracted him to it Drewie's great, though. Like, I, I've loved him ever since, uh, he popped up on my radar because of, um, I had seen

stand-up clips. I produced a stand-up show, so like, you know, I'm kind of checked in there, but obviously it was, uh, the daily show. Cool. Yeah, I mean, dude, he, I mean, he steals some machines, too. It was like, his timing, uh, I mean, like, he makes some of those edits so fun. Yeah. Which I got to shout out the editor, Autumn Dia.

I think, like, as she really, like, made. that like the pacing of the film i remember why i saw the first kind i was like whoa i'm like this like loom that great pace um see i feel bad if he's not giving the shine she should be good because her work is great the editing of that film's really good why what do you mean just like all the reviews and stuff like no one's like mentioning her editing and i'm like dude like she set such a good pace like that's so hard to do and she nailed it i think i mean you probably know this is a DP like when you're not mentioned it usually means you did a great job yeah you know people don't think about it if you if you're in that like 30 to 40 percent like you know

it's either the cinematography's dog shit or you know it's so intense that like everyone has to point it out you know i mean deacon talks about all times like no like he shouldn't be noticing the photography and what the new cinematography book like the first quote and like harris Venus says, like, people don't go to movies for beautiful photography. Yeah, like, they go for story. So, like, we need to serve that. But, yeah, it does suck when you hear, like, people are like, oh, the photography was great at the movie, but the movie was like, oh, it's like, I didn't really nail.

I didn't do my job then, like, in a sense. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure you've been handed a script that you're like, I mean, I'll do it. Yeah. We've had the, yeah, I think we've all had the. moments, but, you know, easily and you're wearing. You go, you know what? That's going to look great in my reel. Yeah.

Although nowadays, I feel like reels are I feel like at a certain point, no one ever looks at a reel anymore. They just look at your website and they go, oh, like yours is, you know, you go through the commercials and it's like Louis Vuitton like Levi's McDonald's, you go, all right, we can trust them. You know, we have to

the stills look fine. Yeah. Remember the last real or deal is probably like, dude, I And, like, I remember my mentor, Tommy, he's like, don't put any shot in there that you have a problem with. And I was like, oh, I can take apart every fucking shot I've done. And I was like, and I hated the process of cutting your own work, too. It's like, I mean, I won't through my computer out there when they're like multiple times. I was trying to cut my reel.

It gets such a laborious, like, what thing to me. So I'm like glad I don't have to do that anymore. I used to update mine every year and I had like one timeline that I would just revisit but then I would like you know need to upgrade my storage or I'd get a new computer or something like that so then everything moves around and when you just see all those red like disconnected clips you're just like I don't want to do it anymore yeah you just like no you're in for the long haul if you're like if I'm going to pack this and you're going to be a lot of work yeah uh did you I did want to ask because Ernie got us in touch

Ernie Gilbert, great editor, great director. Did you meet him through, what was it, nine minutes? No, so Ernie and I came across the trailer. Funny enough, because I went to school in North Carolina, and he's from Greensboro, but he's actually never, like, linked. It's funny, like, Ernie and I were just hanging out a couple weeks ago when we were talking about, he was like, when he was coming up, like, when I graduated from film school, I was like back to Virginia shooting a bunch of metal videos, and he would,

doing the same thing and it's like it's interesting that him and i never crossed paths until we came out to laa the way him and i met was i was shooting like a bunch of shorts for directors that he was like aeing for um and he just saw the work out doing and then reached out and then we just connected from there um but yeah nine minutes was the first short that him landed together um That was a creative shoot. I was the same sheet, actually. It wasn't. Well,

just like, we were shooting at this place called Trone and Pinnacles like on like the hottest day of the year. Like, walking out like, like, 117 degrees.

Like, we're shooting like on 35 animorphic and like, like people were like, my AC had to go to the hospital because of getting dehydration. It was like insane. Like,

I remember this is a great story. Actually, I remember my ACs like, I'm brother from another mother. His name is MacDenum. We went to school together. He, like, comes up to me. He's like, hey, man, we got to reshoot the last shot.

I'm like, what's up? He's like, so when I went to go reload the camera, the pressure, we were shooting an XL2, Panavism, and he was like, the pressure plate's not in there. I was like, what? Because we were having an issue, too, like, it was so hot that we had to pull the pressure plate up. It was basically what was happening. The heat was making the metal. of the pressure plate

and the film expand but we couldn't slide it in we'd have to pull the pressure plate out slide to film in and then like put the pressure plate back over it so through the heat and just like

exhaustion he didn't know where it was it like we forgot to put it back and he's like dude I have no clue like if it's like going to stay flat like it could be just out of focus

so I was like okay so for like 30 minutes we're just like running around trying to find the pressure plate and like Toronto Panples is all and it's just like, they didn't pretty much just a lost cause

and then like 100, I'm like somewhere I'm like looking somewhere else and then like 100 yards away I just see my AC be like, the hand like go up in the air he's like found it. And I was like, holy shit.

People were like four hours in LA so like getting another camera to us it's just not going to happen. And yeah, and then we redid the shot. Funny enough, the shot came through, the one that didn't have the pressure plate came in fine. But that was a really crazy experience.

I think kind of traumatized. I need some shooting film again to be all this mortuary late well you know that's all that always comes up as like the folks who can't because you've shot a ton of film probably mostly in ads right

um ads yeah like shorts and stuff like that music videos I haven't done a feature on film yet it it does everyone who like all the old heads that I've interviewed that you know came up on film and didn't hit digital till they were at their like 40s it's always like you're either in the sort of deacon's camp of like yeah i would never want to shoot film again because it's terrifying and stressful and i lose years off my life and then there's

people who are just like i could never touch digital it's not real you know yeah i mean it's funny i think as i've gotten older and the shooting more i'm like my like my like philosophy was film is like i i just done a lot of jobs where like the there's too much vanity place on the idea shooting film and like we start sacrifice i'm saying other things like i remember there was this music video that we're uh that we were getting up to shoot and it's supposed to be like a period piece too or like 70s period and i remember the director is like he's like dude we'll just like pull some art department so we have enough money for stock and i was like dude i think that's a wrong call.

Yeah. Because, like, people are going to notice when we don't have period things in our period music video over film stock. Like, that's going to hurt us more. And that's what I mean by the vanity of be like, you know, I mean, so many people are like, want to get that Kodak shoot film, like, repost. I'm like, sure, but I'm like, you're missing the point here.

Like, are we shooting this for Instagram? Yeah, well, just like, well, think about what we're trying to serve here first. like we're trying to tell a story we're trying to, like, you know, my mom's not going to know the difference between film versus digital, but she's going to be like, why is there in 2004 like Prius

in the shot right now, the background? I mean, like, they're going to notice things like, oh, you kind of like missed the mark there. So I think very much when it comes to shooting film, like, listen, I was like, I'm down to do it as long as we have the means to do it, we're not sacrificing other departments just to shoot on film.

that's actually there's a conversation I have to have a lot of people and like some directors are like really like you're a DP that like isn't jumping up and down when I offer phone like

I was like let's make sure it's the right reason or give me a good reason for it so that's kind of where I stand on now I'm like I agree with Deacons man I'm like I'm up for a feature right now I'm talking about film and like you know director asking the question

like how do you show and I was like I am going to be more stressed out. Like, I know. Like, that's just inhaling what comes with it. And I'll feel like, I'll take that stress with you. Like, you don't really understand what that stress is. I'm like, the last thing I want to do you to get a call from the lab. Like, I remember I did this 7 a media video.

You were shooting on 16. It was for broken clocks. And I remember, like, those two days shoot. And the first night, I like, 2 in the morning, and get a call from the lab. You'd be like, um, so part of one role fell off the spool and ripped it. I was like,

how many feet and they're like 200 feet is destroyed and I was like fuck me you know I mean like the worst thing

I want to get to get to the morning like you know I got to deliver that information so like and like all productions

like we're not to receive this part so yeah it's like that was one of the worst phone calls I've ever got on that and I just remember

that moment like that's such a nightmare um but yeah i think it's you know but it's changed a lot i think you know i honestly film out the researchings right now which it's huge um yeah yeah i was just i was at the uh kodak awards i've been i've been invited to the kodak awards the past like three four years um and it's great because like everyone's there it's like the the vibe is great um you know you get to meet all

these cool people and whatnot um but there is kind of like a cultiness around it which I do, I honestly enjoy, but there is like a cultiness around it of like, speaking of a comedian, I always think of my buddy, uh, Dave Gabori who's like, or, uh, Dave Borey. He has got a G in the front of his name. But anyway, um, he makes a joke about like, you know, Joe Rogan or whoever being like, we're the modern day philosophers. It does feel a little bit like that with film where they're like, we're the true filmmakers. We're making actual celluloid. And I'm like, I get it. sometimes it's not the right option do I love it yes I love film I love film but you know digital is so good now that you don't it's not like a not shooting film doesn't make your stuff look bad like it used to be in early 2000s

it's funny like the three something like the director version why I shoot film but like we're in the middle little rock archer song and like well the first thing like the budget just could suffice the shoot film but also like the amount of work you would take to be able to shoot film and Little Rock like just, you know, just sending our film back

to get daily, it's like, you know, you're getting, probably, you know, it would be weeklies on that. And, but it's just also the infrastructure, just like, you know, do we have a crew that's ready to handle that? Like, you know, my, like, my loader there, like, actually that lower, yeah, just the IT to like,

you got to find a load of how to handle film all these things but like isn't it worth that right now all that stress and this like amount of work we have to do to make that happen um I don't know but we it's funny enough I'm pretty proud of what the threesome looks like I thought we did a pretty good job trying to emulate like a more filmic look on it that was something that was literally like my first note was like just because they like I color a lot so The halation alone, I was like, all right, I can tell that's not film. It looks really good. But I wanted to, I did want to ask you about the emulation process.

Like, was that all in just kind of like bespoke resolve or were you doing the DeHancer move or like, what was the move? So this, I got to give a shout out to my DIT, the Hall of Dan Lurie. So we, it's funny, my DIT and we actually completely took out the Daily Colorist and handled it ourselves. because I just you know the past experience I've had with Daily Color it's just like kind of a nightmare like the wrong luck

goes on you know the thing is just like you get a phone call to like why doesn't look like this and it's like it becomes a thing so we had to talk like when we were doing the post talk

of our post producer I was like hey my DID I have an idea so we will handle the dailies you know I built my Lut with Mike Hull over color collected and you know we only had two lots

it was basically the same let one was just like a printed up version if we were like in really dark situations um and then because i don't like carrying a lot of lots i feel like like i said based just all my past experiences but yes too many less and that's what happens like the wrong one gets put on your daily is and okay but now it's where you have to fix all this and it becomes a debacle so but what we were doing one and a night one yeah exactly and um what we ended up doing was at the end of every day, and Hall and I would sit down and go through the day's work, and we are applying film box for all our dailies.

So our dailies are coming through with grain and elation. And the main reason I did that is, it's funny, I just listened to the Ed Lachman and Roger Zekin's, like, post-production podcast. And, you know, they were talking about, like, you know, when, if your dailies aren't correct or the way you want to look

and they're sitting in post for months like that, it's real easy for the director to be like, oh, I'm fine with this and then we get in a color and it's like, I mean, I don't know do like back in like when things were like log C on an Alexa video and like they'd be just looking at that like what music it is.

I haven't had several music it is. We're like, oh, we like the logs like the way it looks. I'm like, that's log C and flat. Like we shouldn't do that. But so I just all like just through my stance of like, okay, we need to like alleviate the situation so I can keep control or like, keep the look that we originally set out

the intent of the intention of what our book is actually falling through um because I feel like a lot of that gets lost in translation at the DIT which is you know now the lad right so that was I'm going to try to continue that for now on

our post producer ended up liking a lot because we actually save I think two days in color because of that yeah the uh my move with like I guess corporate clients recently has been to deliver the like early edits in black and white just so that they don't not even like good looking black and white I just mean desaturated. Yeah.

Just so that so that they and I tell them I go, hey, this is in black and white because this is, that's not what we're focused on. We're only focused on the pacing. We're focused on what these, you know, your clients are saying, whatever. And then we can start thinking about. because they always want to, hey, this is a little over here, but it's like, don't, let's not think about that right now. You know, it's hard to get unknowledgeable people to sit on that. And it's even harder, as you're saying. I was just talking to someone about this the other day.

Like, I think Vice, for all the amazing coverage they did, really set the look for so many people where they're like, dude, ungraded log. That's like the hardcore shit. yeah I do there was and there was a there was like a short phase that was happening where I mean how was that like I feel like yeah I was doing a lot of music era between 2013 and like 2015 and it was happy and constant I was like oh my god like why are we just shooting flat like like everything just felt like a total range or good base like for a while yeah, I'm glad that era's going on. But now it's like everything's like very stat-print-y-looking, like shoot film, don't like

set-print. So, yeah. But, you know, Gene, go ahead. I was going to say, did you get your start? No, I trust me, I'm my brain's all overplace. Feel free to interrupt me. No one's here to listen to me. Did you get your start like on film getting these like ads and music videos?

Is that what kind of, because I feel like a right. around now, as you were saying, like, film is starting to really see a resurgence. So people are looking back at like, all right, well, who shoots film? And it's like people like you that I think are getting those calls first. Yeah, I mean, like, when I was in the film school, I went to North Carolina School of the Arts. And I think like two years after me is when they switched to digital. But like, I was like one of the last classes, like we shot all like, you know, our third and fourth year. So we're all done on the film.

So I think like of definitely like one of that last generation I remember like every Kansas school to show us the 416 when it was about to come out. But it was funny like film kind of died right after the 416 came out and like the red one like was coming out like you know my first professional job after student school of like shooting on like HVX 200 or elitist adapter. Classic.

Yeah, classic. It was funny like I never dealt with one in film school. So I remember the director was like, have you shot with this? I'm like, yeah, I had no fucking I'm sorry. I didn't know about the spinning, yeah, anything like that. So you needed about what, six extra stops of light to get through that adapter?

And just like pulling focus on like still lenses, like the rigs insane. Yeah, so it's funny. I remember like, yeah, I mean, I definitely like, you know, earlier on my career, there'd be time where like a film dog would come up and I'll get caught and okay, I know you know how to shoot him's film.

And funny enough, like, they're that short film that Larkin did called clapping for the wrong reasons, but Charles can't be now. And he, Larkin wasn't available for, like, they had to shoot before this, that actual intended schedule because some of the artists were all available then. So Jason Ball, the producer called me. He's like, hey, man, I know you know I'll shoot on film. Can you come do these, like, this day for us, we're shooting on 16. So, yeah, it's like, interesting. I mean, there was, like, you know, that period where it was just, like, all did you all, and then, like, film shootings were kind of rare in that time.

Yeah. So, yeah, it's interesting to see how the people have turned because, like, had such a resurgence. Like, I mean, dude, have you seen the cost of, like, bling shoot film cameras? They have, like, skyrocketed. It's insane. Dude, and I see, I see, uh, I see it so much at, like, I run, like, college ski trips, and my girlfriend teaches dance. And so she's got a lot of, like, young.

co-workers and stuff, and they all will go spend $25 on a point and shoot just to shoot, like, a party. And I pulled one of them aside a couple of years ago. And I was like, and it's my most, by far, my most read article on Pro Video Coalition. I've done hours of like research on various cameras, you know, sat with them for hours and hours, like writing these very detailed reviews of cinema cameras, whatever it may be, lights. and my most viewed article is something that I literally wrote for my girlfriend's friend which was basically like you don't like film

you like on camera flash let's get you a cheap digital point and shoot that'll help and then I even included because I was just you know I wrote it for my friend I was like here's all the digital cameras you should be looking at if you want to spend money here's all the point and shoot film cameras but here's what the lens will change here with blah blah and then right after that yeah film became

you know unpurchasable yeah i mean it's it's also funny just like i think like retro tech i just you know i mean you look at trends that's how it kind of works just like things 20 30 years ago just like coming back up and i think like vinyl's having like it's funny i went home for christmas and like my little cousin who's like 16 is like getting in a vinyl and it's funny i like i was like okay i was like you know what vinyl he's like do you know what vinyl is i'm like yeah I got him some record. I gave him some records from my collection. And it's just like,

it's interesting how, like, it's all coming back. Like, I went to Tokyo last year for a job. And, like, I was, like, going to all the camera shops, too,

and those, it's insane. But, like, there's now just, like, they have, every camera shop I went to you had a case

with just, like, the CcccD calls of them. There's a huge resurgence in those right now. Like, it's just really funny. I remember when it Southby, what is it?

I think, like, Jennifer Teg or something like popped out her little CCB camera show like shooting with and I was like oh here we go you know what I mean like it's the I've seen a lot of Canon cyber shots a lot of cool fixes out in the world I think and honestly I kind of agree with what I believe to be the premise of like kind of the Gen Z resurgence of the point in shoes which is you know very much they want to live in the you know the phone you and I didn't maybe it was college when the smartphone came out and I did I had a

Blackberry until like my junior year of college or something like that so that you know besides BBM there was no I actually had to get an iPod touch because I was working at Red Bull and Red Bull was one of the very first adopters of Instagram and so I needed a Instagram account like for marketing purposes. So I got an iPod touch. It would only work on Wi-Fi, obviously. But that was how I ran. My Instagram with them take parties and they go post them home. But, you know, they're so on the phone that they just want to live in the moment for a minute. So the camera being separate from the phone is like, I think, I think that's the main reason why they're doing it. And honestly, I'm cool with that. Yeah, I mean, they say that new generation and kids are the one that are trying to

disconnect because yeah like we weren't born with like a tablet put in front of us they were so like i mean i remember when i went home i was playing video games was my cousin and he had his computer out and it's like watching some youtube video then he has iPad doing something else and he was facetiming with his friend that we were playing with meanwhile i'm just trying to understand the game and he's doing all this stuff and i was like holy shit dude like the amount of like stuff you're ingesting rapidly is insane and like i get it i'm like dude like there has to be a moment when like you want you must have to want to just like slow down for a second if that's like what you're constantly doing all day um also dawned on me like why

commercial like are doing all social commercials i'm like my little cousin here like doesn't you know where a real commercial is like he doesn't even go like i'll try to go to a movie he was like how long is the movie and i was like i don't know like two hours he's like absolutely not i was like well do you want to watch a tv show he's like i want to do you show like 30 minutes you're like no i was like do you watch any tv or anything he's like i watched family guy i was like how do you watch family guy like i watched during that clip of it on ticot i was like what i was like okay that's insane like you know yeah the fact you bring you bring that up i remember seeing on ticot like a clip from a movie came up and i watched it because of

it was a movie I like this is like a couple years ago so I don't really remember what it was but and it said you know I'm watching I was like ha ha that's funny and then I looked in like at the caption and it said something like you know four out of 56 and I was like what and then I clicked the profile and it was the whole movie chopped up into 10 minute chunks because I think at the time 10 and and it made me think like that's such an interesting because it used to be that money was more valuable than time. And now time is more valuable than money. So if you put 57 chunks of a movie,

basically what you're doing is, is this next 10 minute segment worth it? And then if you get through that and you go, I'm still interested, then you hit the next 10. And I think that's how people, you know, if they hear two hours, they're like, but what if I don't like it after 20? Yes.

You know, which is obviously not a great way to go through life, you know, but I mean, I think people should be open to experience. You know, maybe you don't like. That's fine. You still learn something. I mean, have you heard about the whole second screen kind of stuff like the way like song with some writers and

they're telling me like some of the notes they get back they're like, this needs to be more second screen. And I was like, what does that mean? They're like, oh, oh, no. And I'm sure you're already like starting to get an idea. Have you heard this term? No, but I think I know what you're about to say. is like, you know, if you're sitting at home and you're on your phone too while you're watching

something on Netflix, and it's like, I was like, so they're basically just saying to dumb down your stuff so it can just, it's enough for them to have it on in the background, but it's not that engaging that they won't like go away from their phone. And I was sitting there, I was like, that is the worst type of note to beginning. And I'm like, it's just, it just is weird that those are knows that are coming from studios. Well, you know, it's, our cocaine isn't pure enough. Yeah. It is just, I, it just, it hurts to hear that.

And I was like, I don't know like how, I mean, it's funny. I was, I was talking to Djibuki about that in particular. It's talking about a show, you know, trying to develop and told me about that. I was like, he's like, it made me not want to do it anymore. I'm like, fuck, dude, that. Like, I was, you know, it just goes back to like, we need a. have people in control of the studios that actually wanted to make films.

Yeah. Well, and I hadn't heard second screen, but I had heard from, I'm making this up, I'm just picking names, I don't remember, but it was like a Netflix exec or whoever, that was like,

hey, the dialogue needs to be more explicit, not like horny, but like, you know, more, less, less nebulous,

because, their assumption was that people would have this on in the background while they were on the phone doing dishes whatever it may be so that's why when people watch movies and go wow the exposition is so insane people walk into a room and go like i'm entering the room now how are you jason you know because they assume you're not watching they assume you're just listening and that's tough yeah that's that's that's something the terms with it's a weird way to look at that it's like okay it's real obvious that you're like you just care to know that like you're getting the stats that this viewer in this household is on your platform and it's constantly just on that's all they care about yeah you know i mean like i you know there was a film i got approached by about a couple years ago and like when i was reading it it was for hulu and i was like oh like when i was reading a script like this seems like this was completely made based off an algorithm that they saw they're like okay And it's like hit all these points based on what we're seeing the staffs are coming in.

Our viewers want more. I was like, you could tell when I was reading script. I was like, man, like, I think I'm not doing it. But I was just like, dude, I'm like, I got on other scripts like that too. I'm like, this is not being written by someone. This is being written based on like data that they're getting in. Right. Well, I do wonder like, you know, one moment for me when I was much younger, you know, in my teens.

I mentioned it before, but like realizing that not every movie was made for me, I think, again, I've said it before, but it was I pretty sure it was Twilight. And I was like, this sucks, blah, blah, blah. And my friend was like, well, it's just not made for you. And I was like, what are you talking about? Like, every movie needs to be objectively good across the board. And she was like, nah, it's just not made for you. And I was like, oh. And that took a while to like internalize. But, you know, I wasn't, I wasn't thinking about art at the time. But I do wonder if there. There's like somewhere in the middle where it's, I guess it's the audio book. But, but I'm wondering like, you know, maybe there's, it's not the algorithmically driven thing. But what if there is like a, you know, we can't control audience taste. But what if there is like an audience who's like, no, I would rather list. It's the audio book. I think we just need to push those people to audiobooks. Yeah.

Because why take all the effort? Like really well done like multicatist and like audiobooks. And then maybe the video is just. them like reading it around it you know like a table read yeah we just need people we need people to like have to like focus a little more to slow down in a sense like yeah well i think you know it's like how do we solve that as filmmakers right like all right we have a campaign you know like everyone's slow down but i mean i think the you know we're talking about like how kids are trying to disconnect and think you'll naturally swing that way i think it's like one of those things like

Once the pendulum is swung so far out on the way, it has to kind of, like, level back out. I think it'll just take time. But then, you know, kids, I mean, we're all young at one time. We don't like to be told what to do or force.

And they just going to have to kind of come to it on their own. And, like, we're seeing what happen, you know? So it's funny, like I said, like, in a two-year difference,

like, went home for the past two Christmas, or one, like, it's my younger cousin is now, like, getting in theater and acting. He's, like, starting to watch films now.

And before, I remember he was, like, they were watching anything for you. But now he's, like, asking me, he's like, hey, like, I watched this film, do you know it? I'm like, oh, yeah, I was like, dude, let me send you some other films. So they said, I think they kind of just need to fall into it themselves, but they're trying to, like, no one, like, because it's funny. I'm like, I'm thinking around, like, they're looking at me, I'm like, the old guy now. Like, whatever, he's, he's old. Like, I don't need to listen to him. So I just got to wait for him to be like, hey, you're heard of this?

Like, yeah, actually, I grew up on that. So, yeah, it's just time, I think. We're kind of going out and get to it on their own. Well, and it, you know, it reminds me of kind of the death of radio. Like my car's oldest shit. It's an 04, so I just have radio and a CD drive, but, you know, I don't have any CDs. I got records. And, you know, the, but when I say the death of radio, I really mean the death of the DJ, right?

The curator who personally would, would curate when I grew up in the Bay Area. and there was a lot of, you know, local radio stations that would personally curate the songs. And I learned a lot. That very sort of, I guess, aggressively shaped my musical tastes, you know, in the punk, rock, middle, you know, whatever rocks and even the hip-hop. And now you don't have that. And there's no such thing, you know, maybe the criterion streaming is very good at curating. but obviously any of the other ones are just putting everything on there. Yeah.

You know, it's an advertising platform essentially. So I think that is kind of the future of at least that element is having your close friends be your curator. You're your cousins curator and stuff. And I think that'll actually be cool because then you get to show them stuff that they probably haven't heard of. Maybe you've got, you know, I've got all these Blu-rays where I'm like, have you heard of Tammy and the T-Rex? you know

I'm like no what's that like well first do you have a PlayStation all right you can play it right here you go you know well it's funny like my cousin brought he's like dude you ever heard of Nirvana I was like yeah I was like yeah actually I'll give you all their albums I have them all

here you go start with this song and it's funny it's just like it's open the door I quite enjoy like helping like yeah like you said curator to show him a little bit you know kind of remind me about seeing them those are almost famous when you leave the records for him. You know what I mean?

It was like the same kind of doing so it's cool. But yeah, it's, uh, I'm trying to get more in a film. He's like starting to do it. So, but yeah, he's just like, you know, like, this is about two hours. So I'm like, I'm like, look, dude, just you'll enjoy it. Just take the time. You'll enjoy it. Well, and I think the hardest barrier for anyone like that is black and white.

Oh, my God. Like, if you can find like three black and white films that read super modern, it it knocks down the door for quote unquote old movies you know uh i think i think an 18 year old could watch like double indemnity and get very you know stoked on it because it's a horny ass film and i think you know it just it's very i think people think black and white and they think wizard of oz which is very um theatrical you know and they don't know that there's all these like little corner like sort of edgier films in that same era that aren't as

not romantic, but just flowery, I guess. Yeah, I mean, I mean, dude, you know, so much film noir with the black and white, you know, I mean, so like, I mean, it's funny, like, it's, I mean, it's funny you bring up the black and white. It's just a lot of people just sort of state

old black and white or something even. And like, the the amount of things I've tried to shoot in black and white, and if that's literally, I'm told you, like, the kids won't like that because I think it'll be old. I'm like like your reasoning not strong enough by just saying that.

I was like this. I mean like like you know, Ed Lachman did all conduct black and white. It's gorgeous and like in like music video is gorgeous. Granted that's Fincher and shit but like you know. But it's like there's something about black and white that's actually like timeless which I love

about it. Like and I think like you know depending on like we're using us for there's something peeping up black and white is like you're working in contrast like I feel like if you want to do something super graphic

black and white is a really good way to go I personally love black and white like I'm always waiting for someone to be like can we just I'm waiting for the project where that's the move because I absolutely adore it

I have a funny story about it so I remember I did this movie called World Best for Disney and the opening scene in that movie like I was like my look reference with JFK and I was like so I was like super hot top light

it's like really just like just a lot of blooming and I remember I had I had a DIT switch all the black and white to be a line of modern

in that way I remember the Disney's I was like what's this but I was like don't worry it's not black and white she was like

it doesn't be I was like but I'm like trying to see I was like you're like I physically can I was testing the water and I was like

need me I turned this on and you guys like oh that looks cool and they're like no I was like all right well it's worth a shot but yeah I was I'm like trying to get a little sneaky but it did not work out on my favor got like called out on like

the first 30 seconds the monitors turned up on that I used to before I had like a spot meter and before false color came out I would always monitor in black and white to get my contrast ratios and then I would flip it back to color and then adjust

the like color temp if I was able um that's always a good move actually speaking of black and white um I was you know watching uh the threesome uh I would I felt like you tell me if this is true or not but I but it's something that I always try to do I feel like everyone doesn't want to ask you obviously Chris Nolan's following right the first uh whatever it is 15 20 minutes he like put all his budget into it to make it look really really like primo and then he was you know got away with the rest of it was that kind of the move here because the first like three four scenes of this film are just lush you know there's like everywhere looks very romantic and then the rest of it is like it still looks great but it's like a little more traditional

was that intentional or was that just because the scene the opening scenes are supposed to be a little more like romantic gloomy and stuff i know i think you know like you know we you're trying to still pay homage to like the rom-com genre so like you know the traditional opening of a wedding like i'll say like this is probably this movie is probably the softest movie i've done like when i say soft like soft like soft as black point i've ever had right um and that was definitely like a challenge but i think like yeah the opening we're trying to pay I'm interested in that genre. So there was like a lot of light there.

But I think it's also part of location was that too. Like I think overall the full that top light. Yeah. You know like I like Bobbys are the big influence on me as I saw I've wrote it down the fucking when they're when he's talking with that first girl initially that that that hot table light. Yeah. Yeah.

So that's always been like a you know like I said it's like the Disney movie like try to emulate J.S. Karrie. Yes, I'm taking a lot of influence from him, but I think, I don't think that was like an on-set goal, but I think just inherently thinking of, like, how we can paint homage to that. So I think that scene kind of just linked itself to that a little bit. Like I said, the location, too. Yeah, and like the wardrobe, just like a lot of white in there. And it was like all the flowers.

I think my big thing, too, of like, I just really wanted to help Clarissa our production of that show can work. I think, you know, I've done a lot of jobs where Or I used to, when I was a camera, I worked with some DEP that I really just liked the production of the liner, which I sounds kind of weird. Dislike? Or fight the production of minor a lot or just like timeout work in tandem with them. And I'm like, man, we're like two peas and odd. We kind of need. Production designer makes you look good.

Exactly. They give me a world to shoot. So I've always been really conscious of that and trying to make sure I show the world. work that they're doing. Right. Because, you know, I think, I've always heard Spall and I'm trying to, like, really?

Like, you ended up shooting pipe for this whole scene when I designed this whole world? Like, okay, great. So I think that was part of it. Yeah, I think that day was really difficult, though. The opening in that movie was very hard, because we had to shoot a lot of moving pieces. We had to shoot that all in one day. And there's actually a lot more to that scene that's not in the cut.

And it was terribly cold. like that place wasn't insulated that we're shooting at so like trying to make everyone look cheery and happy was not easy well especially after like hour 10 and people are like shivering you know okay don't look like you're cold guys so um yeah that was that was not easy um yeah there was a lot of uh obviously it's not all over the film but certainly in the beginning there's a lot of like gimbal work or dolly work even uh And I saw the build on that Ronan 2. You know, you got what, an Alexa Mini with that big? 35. 35 with the Primo Zoom. And I literally just last weekend just had a C70 with a relatively small animorphic on the front, on a Ronan 4. And I was not confident in it.

So can you explain to me like how, how do you build a? out. This is such a basic-ass question. I just never use gimbles. But like, how are you, how do you handle, how do you get the gimbal to handle that much weight? Um, so I don't use, like, I own that run in and like I have a set of nodal wheel. And like, I use it more like a remote head than anything at all. I don't, I don't like carry it like and it's like the ring or whatever they call it. I don't like do that much. I just use it as kind of like a remote side. Um, sure. So, yeah. I think for that, I mean, we were definitely pushing it. Like, I had to send my running in after that movie, actually,

because the yoke was a little, like, one of the least, I think we had the 27 of 75 premium. Like, we were pushing it to the limit. But, you know, I did another feature prior to that, and that's where we kind of figured it out. I think the biggest thing is, like, kind of need to make sure you have all the right tools to it and making sure you have someone that knows how to run the gimbal really well.

Both my AC and my operator, generally, he's also not out of the road in himself so he knew very well so it helped um yeah i mean we were pushing it through the limit that's for sure like it's like that thing was cranked out like we were right at the mat we were at the tipping point of it um i mean part of like balances i guess the lot of counterbalances it was also just like you know uh i'd shoot a lot of minutes too as well and part of the reason there was more the reason of why i went to lexia 35 but you know just a little bit of a small form factor. It is lighter than a Venice.

But we have, I do Venice on that as well. But, like, I knew I wanted to use it, like, a little bit of a more compact zoom. So I knew we're,

and then there's more of the problem with that. It's like, it's just distributing the weight. And you only have so much we can extend the rodent out for its, like, center balance. So, like,

you'll just spot in, like, you know, you want to avoid. I think the biggest thing, too, we kind of had, we had two bodies.

I ran it more like a single camera show pretty much. So one camera I tried to live in that set up, which really helped. I think if you have one camera body and you're trying to go back and forth, it's really problematic. You're not a waste a lot of time with that. So that was probably the biggest benefit. But yeah, I think I use it mainly a remote head. So I think that helps it a lot too. Like, you know, it's not like being really thrashed around too hard, like on something or like running really

art um yeah that's probably something of health i think we're like putting it on like you know something like a like a black arm doing like a bunch of crazy driving shots they would have probably really destroyed snap to nap yeah yeah well we're pretty we're pretty ginger with that so that helped got you all that that gives me confidence then because i because i was like am i about to break because i you know i borrowed it from my gaffer and i was like i know break this fucking thing just carrying it like it but i also again i'd never used one so i'm sitting there going like just absolutely micromania every millimeter on the back and you know i didn't have any you kind of need to have all the right accessories for it like me my aces sat down and like i said i did

a film prior to that where we got all the bits and kind of figured it out so that helped a lot um i think if that was like straight out the box like run into we would have probably not I've been able to pull it off. Like, I did a bunch of research, talked to a lot of gimbal techs and let me go get this, this and this and it will help it a lot. Gotcha. All right. Well, thank you for helping me with that.

That's just for me personal. I didn't want to ask like about the lighting in general, you know, aside from like the opening, like wedding, the bars and stuff, a lot of it is either outdoors and a lot of car rigs and stuff. I was wondering kind of what were you doing? I assume this wasn't super high budget. What were some of the things you were doing to kind of plus up, you know, make sure that it had a higher budget look than what you had? It's fine.

I think I had to play scheduling with our gear was really important. You know, it's fine. We really have to, like, break it down to, like, what we're shooting in a week. Like, so like the first, you know, the budget was built a tier one, so six million. Um, no, they're little rock. And, you know, my big thing was like, I'm really big on like, I like to carry some big guns because I just had my philosophy. Like, I, it's always harder to make a smaller unit bigger. You just can't.

You know, I mean, and then you start to steal the source. So like, I had to like really work with the ED, sit down the schedule to make, production, because I wanted to carry 218Ks for a good bit of the show, but I kind of broke down all the scenes, like, based on, like, what we were doing, schedule-wise, so I carried 218K for the first three weeks, five weeks of shooting, and then they got returned after that. So, like, doing things like that, kind of playing the game, like, when you know how the day-play stuff.

But I think part of that game is, too, just, like, you need to work, like, you kind of got show the mental house that, like, you're working with them, too. because sometimes what a rental house will just end up being like do you just keep it for the whole time because we see that you're trying to make it work and the last thing in rental house wants to do especially to like a gapper and a DEP or a key grip is like we're not going to give you the tools that you need damage to me I think this I think this comes down to just kind of a respect for it you know because like I would talk to the rental house and you like look I know the producer the LP is like we can't afford this so here's what I'm thinking will carry for these days, blah, blah, blah. And then that's kind of how we made it work. And I think, I'll have answered the question.

You're going to help? Sure. Well, I'm more, actually, that brings me to another thing. I'm more, we'll get back to that. I was more thinking, like, what were you doing kind of on, you know, were there any, obviously that one of the easy answers is just like, oh, we shot at Golden Hour. You know, stuff that with what you had looks way more high budget than it is.

yeah or shots that maybe came out and you were like that looks incredible I'm shocked that you know we got away with that one yeah I think I mean we had to do certain things

like I don't know if you remember the strip of like a part where like they're both like our two leaves are on a hill and they're talking and there's like the sun right behind them like dude like that was like me my camera assistant and like my DIT and second it's like throwing all the camera gear

into my car and racing to this location and Chad, the director and the two actors and Hivcar and literally just like hop out the car actors get like both to Jonah and Zoe I'm like go right here clap the camera on and let's go so there's we had several moments like that in the film and I think but there's also something about like there's some beauty to that because like you're just in a moment

And, you know, what was really cool about this film was, like, we were kind of a big family. So, like, every weekend, like, I'm a big cook. So me and the camera team lived in a house together and the whole cast and then we want to come over and we'd hang out. So, like, being able to have that kind of bond relationship with the actress helped a lot. Because, like, they kind of thought, they knew what they were doing. So we were kind of, like, formula one team just like, boom, boom, boom, let's go. And it's just, like, happening. Loving, like, confusion.

People are like, okay, we're down for the call. And so that happened a lot, which was, you know, you get beautiful moments from that. And like, yeah, those very situations, like, yeah, and you just, like, we lucked out. I remember when we turned around, like, that sun is in the perfect spot. I was like, this isn't the page. I was like, the next thing, that shit is going to be gone. Yeah. No one's looked at, though.

And, like, I think, you know, no matter what your budget is, you're always racing that stuff. Like, you have nothing that can control the sun in that situation. So, I think on that. And then, like, I think also, like, for me, like, the day one of our shoot, I kind of, like, I brought, like, the first thing we did was when Zoe is, like, trying to put the baby trip together. And there's a lot of people that would be like, oh, we'll just, like, I knew the son was on that side of the building anyways. But I was like, no, I want to control this. And, like, I was probably sort of, probably sort of like, how I'm going to like this. So, like, the first shot, like, I'll, like, get the 18K up.

like we're going blasted through here I was like and I have like a really rich like look if I didn't have the 18 it would just been soft like hitting the curtains and like there's just been no punch to it and I think it's

I think we do there's too much of that I think you know that's why a lot of movies end up looking kind of the same or kind of just like too natural and kind of flat I think you want to try to it's funny a lot of people like oh

like napole means soft i'm like well dude hard late in the real world it's all like wild you can add hard and soft it's i think it's actually important to have like that dynamic look in your scene um yeah i dude i just had this idea the other day because you know we all have uh you know artemus or whatever you know pocket ac all these apps the sunseeker i want one that will give you EL zones so that you can go around and if you see good natural light

obviously you know if people take a picture of it but nowadays if you're on your cell phone like there's way too much post-processing that the phone does so the photo doesn't work you need like a regular camera to do it but I want an app that just does ELs I should talk to Ed about this I I'm going to add

everything like an app. I know a guy knows it. Okay. I want an app that just so if you see good light, you can take a photo and it'll show you the EL zones so that when you're recreating it, like you can reference the photo you took and be like, oh, okay, that actually needs to be hotter, you know.

You kind of know what the base is there too. Like, you know, you'll be a scout and you're like, okay, like what is this right now? it's naturally, like, what is it falling naturally on it? Right. I do feel like you kind of get it. I mean, I've gotten to the point out my eyes starting to get a little trimming. It's pretty training with that.

Like, I kind of walk into, like, a setting. I'm like, okay, you kind of know if, like, we're going to be able to handle this or we're going to need to bring in this, like, bringing in a lot of firepower to make this work or, like, this will work with what's going on. And, um, but I think it's hard because, like, you know, I like the idea of that because you kind of need to see, like, okay, It doesn't. What happens? It's like the day you show up, it's that overcast. You know, like, you know, and that's like, that's a hard thing to deal.

Like, day exterior, I think every key is like, man, there's like, there's only so much you can do. You know what I mean? And like, sometimes they're just going to be like, well, because I don't have a luxury like waiting out days. I just have to go with it. Like, an example of like the hospital. The hospital is probably one of the most stressful things I've had to deal with. because I bet. Well, originally I want, like, we were going to have, like, you know, that was on the dirt floor of a real working hospital.

So, you know, we're using condors to get our lights up. And I remember on the week we're shooting the first day, I went, I wake up that morning and it was just raining and overcast. We originally wanted to be lighting sunny. I was like, well, that's not going to happen. Because, you know, I'm looking out the windows and, like, you have all that depth and, like, I can't change that. remember calling the gaffer and key group all the way and i was like dude we're going to have to

slip the light and steam i was like we're not going to put any lights in the bucket you're going to put a 20-bought ultra up there and we're going to put the 18 on the ground we're going to shelf-house this i'm like it's going to fall into the look better but so we're like getting like we're shooting two days like that for this one scene and then on day two i'm like start to freak out and i'm like looking and i just start to see the sun breaks out. I'm like, oh, fuck. And I'm like, I go up to the director. I'm like, an AD, I'm like, hey, dude, we need to shoot everything towards the window as fast as possible. And given, this is a scene with nine characters, nine principles in it. And I'm like, this,

it's not a good scenario. I didn't have any good thing option to bring to them. Other than we need to shoot fast. And they're like, well, we don't get in time. What do we have to feel? Like, we're going to have to reshoot everything else that we've done because the sun's going to break and it's whole dramatically different. So, like, now the real stressful situation. And, uh, yeah, that was not fun. I, those, those are things I think, like, deep needs just dread. And it's, like, hard to, like, explain that, I feel like sometimes, you know what I mean?

Because people were, like, well, she just fix it. Like, well, it's not easy to fix because, like, these are kind of, like, sky replacement, which I always feel kind of looks a little yucky. but yeah so that was yeah that was not someone

but we got through it thank God I that brings up a few things but I did want to bring up some I was thinking about earlier which is when you are having discussions with you know the producers and specifically the line producer

is your aim like you know that you know maybe you're over but and not just with this film I mean in general like maybe you know that production's going to be over budget or whatever, whatever. Are you, is your instinct to suggest things that are budget conscious, or do you just shoot for, these are all the things I want and or need, and that it's up to them to tell you no?

Or, because I imagine, like, there's a fear there that maybe if you ask for too much, they'll be like, this guy's fucking difficult or something. Yeah, I mean, I think you kind of need, every job's a little different. I mean, kind of need to be the line producer a little bit. You know, on that film, you know, I think you always should kind of reach for the stars first, you know what I mean? Because I don't think you should forechange yourself out the gate because you never know. It might just say yes. So if I've been victim of that, where like, especially coming up to music, you know, music videos were like, you know, music videos were like, we have to be so concise about everything.

And I remember this one commercial producer, Paul, he's like, hey, man, I see your way, your order is kind of, like, why it's so light? And I was like, well, I'm just trying to be conservative. He's like, look, dude. He's like, this is a little more commercial, like, commercial, but a little different. He's like, he's like, hey, man, I know this client and they're going to throw curb balls. I want to make sure you are, like, quick to be able to handle that. You know, that was like a light ball that, like, went off for me.

I was like, okay, that makes a lot of sense. This is like really early on my career. And I was like, okay. So I think you need to be able to bring a little, like, you need to protect yourself a little bit. I think you also need, like you said, you also need to be mindful

that you shouldn't be, like, I knew what the budget of our film was. I mean, and I think that's your experience. You got to show, like, you have that experience

and understand, like, you are playing ball at the same time. Because the last thing I want to do is have a terrible relation to the line producer or just like production in general.

Like, I want them on my side. So, yeah, you know, the biggest thing is like, I tell them, like,

look, this is going to be like my ideal package. and then let me know if we need to go to work on it after we get our first clone in. And that's what we did. And that's what ended up based on what I said earlier, like we figured out how to dayplay what we needed based on our schedule. And I think, you know, for me, like, I have to put in that work.

It's like no one else is going to know better than me like where I need this stuff. So, yeah, I'm planning to work. You're like, here's where we can do all this or this is what we need the gear. This is one could go back. And I think if you work like that, you one they'll respect you for that and they're seeing that you're actually putting

your best foot forward to make it work I know people that are like okay this is all I need just make it happen that's fine but like you know I also know producers got to do their job like we're all there for the same reason

so then you're part of the you need to play nice be understandable is the last thing you want to do is order a bunch of shit that you end up not using and then you're just like burning money because then like a producer will I worked with one producer he would walk around

and it's like oh I see the 412 case the order not doing shit right now and I'm like okay I hear you okay not right now yeah it's like it's like the age old capes like when you like when you don't have it for some reason you need it

but when you do have it you don't use it it's just something that happens I don't know what it is but that's what how always falls and so you know you try to meet the middle with that I certainly have run into the issue of like if if the director will be like do we need whatever this extra you know do we need this extra grip or do we need you know do you think we're going to need this my it my knee jerk reaction is to go no no no I'll do it you know

because I worked low budget for so long that I'm like I can I can handle it then my buddy will come around and be like hey you should have said yes but like yeah yeah yeah needed the help just ask for the help yeah that's the thing and like I said just don't cut yourself short just like they might just be like yeah um sure you can have all that it's like oh okay great um so I think yeah you just like said have a conversation with them make sure that they hear you and that you're hearing them because I think one way I approach producers too is like whenever I'm trying to sell them on something that I need I do it from like their perspective you know I mean, I'm like, oh, I'm like, well, if I had this techno crane, actually, we'll get through

the day faster because I can get the camera where I need a second, where it seems like, if you don't have it. Like, in examples, I remember there's, I did a video for Billy Island called Lovely, and they originally wanted me to do that on like a static crane on a dolly, and I just remember, like, when we scout, I was like, guys, I'll, like, the amount of coordination is going to take go, like, need someone pushing in a dolly, and then you need someone on the R. like it's going to be two separate moving parts I was like we will lose time

trying to do these intricate moves that way I was like a techno crane will be much faster although I know it's more expensive but I was like we will get buried if we try to do it this way and you know that was a little bit of an uphill battle but yeah I remember the producer coming out to me at the end of that I was like oh you were absolutely right

because like we barely made it just with the technical trade you know what I'm like yeah I was like we did it all the way I was like we would still be here for another six hours right And, you know, that overtime, just on a whole crew, it would be astronomical compared to the cost difference on the test cocaine. So I think you just got to be able to approach it from that standpoint,

like, how can you save time with this? That's what a producer wants to hear. So that's like how I work in a sense, when I need something for sure. I'm like, okay, how do I convince a producer? It saves time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, say, it was like we were saying earlier, time or money used to be the most important now it's time yeah i did want to because we're

post uh south by now right did i assume you went yeah what how uh how was that experience it's great um the crowd reaction they brought that in house which was i mean it's always like a scary thing just like right i wonder if they're going to respond well it's also like i don't I'm one of those people too. I have a hard time watching my own work because I'm just like I'm just like sitting there

like oh my God like I could have fixed that if I could have fixed bills are they seeing it and like no I'm like I'm like I'm like real everyone fucking knows I'm like no one has a clue

or I'm even like freaking out about right now something made me my comrades like right but yeah it went really well it was nice you know it actually revitalized the idea of like

like I hope it gets to see what the evening Because, like, I don't think you will have the same reaction shooting or watching that movie by yourself or just with someone else, like, in your living room. Like, it was great feeling the audience just react that way together. Yeah, it was really good. It was special. I quite enjoyed the screening. I had a great time.

Yeah. I agree with you, like, watching it myself. You know, you can tell, especially that first scene, but also just as the messiness. continues, that is something that, yeah, you and your partner, whoever, maybe your friends watching it at home, might be able to go like, ah, but when you're in a big room full of all these unique experiences, even if you're not looking at each other, you can feel that in the room. And there's so many opportunities in this film for unique experiences to kind of conflagrate and create one vibe. And it's funny, too, which everyone likes that. but yeah um yeah definitely probably is leading a little more he's leaning a little more dromedy in a sense for sure than rom-time but yeah uh all the talent's great yeah it's um was an interesting movie to shoot because i've never shot a movie

i've never done like a longcom like that and just i've never done anything in that like world so it was definitely like a departure from so like every d't you we try like lean dark um so he doesn't i mean chat took me on a wheelhouse like no um um like his reference is the first thing he sent me he was like watch broadcast news and when harry met sally broadcast news is good obviously everyone's seen when harry met sally but if you haven't broadcast news is sick yeah and you know i think broadcast needs kind of also said a lot like especially for the actors like that dynamic between the two of them um people like it's always very like i mean she's kind of the queen of like the modern-day rams on now but like

it's this is definitely a little bit of departure so much you eat that I was like she's the moon of sear girl a little just like got more bite to her and um kind of reminds me just like holly unkered podcast series but like sure it's funny like when her and sally like really interesting because i remember watching that movie like photographs beautifully like dude like the park scenes and like just the color of that of like that'll be really influential for me like i mean basically what i ended up doing it was like it's when harry met sally made a baby silver lines playbook and then and then picks up any all in the way like a lot of blocking was really highly influenced by like a lot of Woody Allen films just like how they would

move through how you might have picked up on this I did a lot of like the way we would block it like they would start like in a wide shot and they like come up into a close up or they'd just be moving through the space rather than us doing a lot of coverage which was really nice um and the actors are really cool. Overcovering stuff is for suckers. This genre can easily fall into that really quick.

A lot of the modern-day long-coms fall into that pocket really fast. So Chad and I really worked hard on that. It's great to have actors that were really willing and embracing that. So yeah, that's fun. I'd say that's actually where the Ronan became really funny.

There's a lot of shots on there like that I wouldn't, me and the operator would not been able to tort our bodies around the dolly to do that stuff or like we would have but you probably felt like that misstep or like that jerk trying to like get your body around so that helped a lot um yeah well i mean you did you did a great fucking job but so uh thank you i appreciate um i'm gonna let you go because it's getting late but uh yeah thanks so much for uh rescheduling really first of all, but taking the time to chat and stuff, man. Thank you.

Thank you for having me, man. Of course. Got to think Ernie. I mean, you kind of shut this up. You know what's funny? Actually, is I interviewed Ernie for This Is America years ago. And then we did an episode of this podcast and we spent an hour and a half just pontificating and not talking. I think it was for nine minutes and we didn't talk about it.

And then I was like, hey, let's like take this. back up and then we'll just talk about the movie and then I'll splice them together and we never did. So I guess now I'm going to have to have him back on and I'll just cut the, I'll cut the two together and it'll be like, what are the conversations two years apart sound like? That's hilarious. Give it a little

brutalist intermission and be like, all right, grab some water and now two years later, what do they talk about? That'll be amazing. But yeah, he's the man. So I'm glad he got us in touch. And yeah, stay in touch, man. I'll get you on the old internet. Definitely, man. Let me know what you think of the rest of this film. I'm curious how you feel like ending. Yeah. Well, that's the thing is like I got the. Oh yeah. I was jumping. I was only

jumping by like five minute chunks, you know, so I was getting like plot points, but I'm definitely going to finish it and get the emotional experience of it. I just wanted to make sure I didn't mention something. Oh, yeah. I just wanted to make sure you didn't mention something where I was like, uh-huh. You know. Yeah. But like I said, you're the first, you're the first one to ever give me a screener from any of these festivals anyway, so it's a, it's progress. That's, I'm shocked. I'm glad we were able to break that cycle free now. So maybe hopefully in the future, they can send her to you up. Yeah, I'll be like, if they could do it.

Yeah. All right, man, we'll, uh, get some dinner or something. I'll talk. Thank you. Appreciate it. Later, buddy. Frame and reference is an Albot production, produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so by going to frame and refpod.com and clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated. And as always,

thanks for listening.