Frame & Reference Podcast - 203: "Andor" S2 Cinematographer Christophe Nuyens, SBC

Episode Date: August 7, 2025

This week we've got an absolute treat of an episode! Joining me is Andor Cinematographer Christophe Nuyens, SBC who shot episodes 1-6 (which of course includes your favorite wedding scene).Enjoy!��� ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠F&R Online ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Support F&R⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Watch on YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Produced by Kenny McMillan► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Hello, and welcome to this episode 203 of Frame and Reference. You're about to drop into a conversation between me, Kenny McMillan, and my guest, Christoph Nyan's DP of and or season two. Enjoy. Dude, I was just looking at your Instagram. I know it was like five years ago, but I saw you were trying to like make luts, like film luts for your Alexa.

How did that end up going? So it was during COVID, so I had lots of time. It was during the lockdown. So yeah, it's a lot of work. And it was quite difficult, actually. And I don't think I ended up with something I'm using regularly, but I learned a lot of how to, yeah, how to create a lot, how to go from film to do digital. But, yeah. Actually, to be honest, I didn't end up with something useful.

I tried doing the same thing. and I I learned that you can't so I think you probably did the same you know shoot a chip chart and then try to yeah I kept I would like get close

you know I'd use like the versus curves and I would get pretty close and then I'd get to purple and then you'd try to move purple and then everything would go out of whack and then later color scientist told me that purple's not a real color like in the world

like it's not a thing so digital doesn't know what to do it's somewhere between blue and red so if you move purple it will in fact screw up all the primaries and i was like well but i did i did get like a portrait a decent looking portrait i don't know if it's accurate but it looks nice for me the thing was there were too many variables for example scanning the the the film already you have a lot of different ways to scan it and it comes out every time different And so I ended up by picking things I liked and then working from there. But it's really difficult to, yeah. I think you have to be a really good color scientist to do it.

And I'm not a color scientist. I'm a DP. Yeah. No, that's actually. I keep mentioning this to like students or people who get caught up in like the film versus digital thing. I'm like, the second it gets scanned, film is digital. you know especially if you're if you're taking photos and you're sending them off to whatever lab like a niritsu scanner looks different than yeah that's a thing scanners are you know one might be more green so it's like what is film yeah but that's that's actually the thing i think it's it's from the moment it scans you have a lot of different looks and and and yeah the thing you could do is print a picture and then put it next to it but it's it's the you're doing it manually actually which is also really difficult right you shot a bunch of film

in the past right uh i think in my beginning years after school uh at school i shot a lot of film and they uh i shot a lot of video clips uh on on 60 millimeter on bolexes and and uh the sr i search uh so so in the beginning years but actually i i moved on really quickly to I think at a certain point I bought a red one totally really really in the beginning and it also helped me to start my fiction career a little bit I did more I was one of the first with a head one in Belgium so I did I did commercials and I did yeah the first digital commercials and and also the smaller fiction projects which was I mean, I don't know whose joke it was or if it was true, but there was like, because

my school, we didn't have a red, we were still shooting like 5Ds and DVX 100s and stuff, but when the red one came out, I remember a DP mentioning that they would have to get like a PA to go to the grocery store every couple hours to get frozen peas to lay on top of it because it would just overeat on them and fuck the sensor up. It had a lot of problems, but I think it's, They gave a punch to the camera manufacturer's from film, because actually everything was the development of the digital camera from Avi was really slowly at that moment, I think.

It was like that. Yeah. So everybody woke up because of them. So I think it wasn't the best camera, but they cleared the parts for the digital film, I think. And to make it accessible. Yeah, and I'm finding it funny that, like, now younger kids are, like, really getting into camcorders again. Like, now what we consider to be annoying is now, like, a look.

Like, I feel like that old MX sensor is now going to be, people are going to go on eBay and buy, like, these older DSMC1 bodies just to get, like, what they, what they now consider to be the film. I feel like, I've said this before, but, like, I feel like, you know, digital. There was film, obviously, and digital never looked close. So we did whatever we could to get close to that benchmark. And then once that was passed, now it's like only things in the past look like people's ideolation. That's not a word. Their idea of film, you know, or whatever the, like the term the film look, I feel like has changed. Yeah, maybe, maybe.

But for me, it's, it's, I'm, the looks I'm using, they're always based on film stocks. I use a lot of the times the Kodak film emulation lot that's in Da Vinci. And I use it as a base, and then I saw a bit greater tweaking on it to make something that I want for a show. I think I have five different versions of it. But the thing I really like about it is it is deep primary colors, dense primary colors, which is really film alike for me. Right. And I think that's something.

For me, that's film. It's how colors and the contrast of the colors reacts. I think that's for me the most important thing. Yeah. Well, that's the difference, right? Like photochemical film, I think, always tends to look better than just like stock digital. But just that idea of what people think is the quote unquote, the film look, I think, is now just nostalgia-based versus like empirically based. Like you're saying, like dense colors, deeper.

and stuff like that. But it's funny how many people, like, because the film let in Resolve is a print stock. Yeah, it's a print stock, yeah. So do you just, when you're developing your luts, do you kind of just mentally go, all right, whatever my sort of grade is, is my negative.

And then I'm letting the print stock be this sort of, um, not filter in the sense of like Instagram, but like filter like a civ, you know, like this is going to, uh, hone it in, sort of.

I use the prevenstock as a positive film, actually. And I think on the box, it's very too contrasty. And it's also a bit to dual tone.

So the blacks are too blue for me. So some films or shows it works, I think, a bit less contrast. But Most of the time, I just, yeah, I tweak it. I balance the duetone of it. I, and especially I work a lot on contrast, which is really important for me.

And most of the time I make, to shoot on set, I make my lot a bit too contrasty. It's like a safety for myself and set. And so you have to work a bit harder to make it, to, to, a good example is if you have a lot that's more loxie then yeah everything looks you don't have to still in or you have to yeah it's it's um you know what i mean i think it's it's it's you have to be a little more careful instead with a contrasty lute which i think is good right stops it gives me a lot of yeah gives me a lot of playroom in the grate well and i i was just thinking about this last night like um because for for a while

now I've been, because I color the majority of my own stuff, I'm just now getting into a position where I actually have a colorist, but nine times out of ten, I've been just delivering footage to someone and then they go off with it and they'll slap whatever industry, you know, so I've always just been like, hey, give me whatever extra cash you have. I don't even push it and just go like, let me at least design a lot for it or whatever. But so what I've been doing is I just shoot the stock lot, you know, whatever's in the camera, because I know I'm going to, change it later but like I said I was just thinking about this last night where especially now that I'm delivering footage to an actual color so it's like I should just put in a lot in that camera that like is contrastier so I can so that I actually know what I'm doing at the same time if it's a documentary the contrasting bit becomes a bit scary if you're filming because you you're seeing less than you have right I think yeah it's it's a balance because if I do a project which is more a documentary

approach, I make it softer. Just to don't stress all the time that I don't know if I know a flight but on a section set where you fly it's better to use a control, Simon, I think. Well, and I will say that on my

the three docs that I did this year and last year, it's all been the same director or team I suppose and they all want like a very I guess cinematic I hate using the phrase cinematic it's so blown out but like

they want that like contrastier more aggressive like no fill kind of look and I actually did want to ask you because I saw that used to shoot documentary about like when someone says when a director says in a documentary setting hey can you just go find me some beautiful shots what does that mean

like you know to what end what do you find beautiful there's some there's beauty and everything like what is what is that yeah I think that's a difficult question it's a bit vague and it depends what the documentary is

for me beautiful shots they have to tell something and yeah for me it yeah it's difficult to yeah I need to know the surgeon subject

no that's I I had the same reaction. I was like, what do you mean? We're in a basketball stadium. Oh, I did want to ask about the Lut thing for and or when you're, I saw in the, I think it was the clubhouse conversation. You were talking about designing your own Lut outside of the other DPs. And I was, I mean, the whole show looks pretty consistent.

But like, what was that process? What were you aiming for? And was there like a handoff? Like, or did everyone kind of do their own thing? No, I think they used, everybody used my lots while shooting and Jean-Clement in the crate like he did in the first season. He, the first season, they used the lot of the first season,

but he, in the baseline you can dail in diamond a lot a little bit more or less. And that's the thing he did. He did also the same thing in season two. But the base was the lot we created. together. What were the references for it? There were no references.

The first season, I think I wanted to, there was a lot and I think the lot that they used for the first season was created by Greg Crazier for Rockland. But I thought it was difficult to work with a lot

that I don't know, especially a lot that was created for the Alexa 65 and not for the Sony fans. And so I wanted to, yeah, create my own lots, but which resembles the one Greg Freedian did for a Hawk once. And so, so, yeah, I used, like I said, the Quebec film print as a base. And then after a day of tweaking with John Clement, we really ended up with something that was quite similar to season one. I think a bit contrastier

than the look of rock one but yeah that's where we ended up I do love how the highlights are handled in your look because it's like this nice like soft kind of I guess creamy

yeah I'm like see that work yeah but it's just a wonderful it's also very like pastel not pastel necessarily but it's like paint till that was actually something I did want to ask because, like, I've had a joke for a while that a lot of DPs will get awards for the production design. And I was wondering, like, for you, you know, obviously Star Wars is just rife for amazing production design, amazing costumes, and that sort of thing. Including the Ludd, I guess, or the way you shot it, but in lighting as well, like, did you find that you were able to just kind of, uh, uh, I guess, season the scene gently with your lights and everything because the production design was doing a lot of heavy lifting, or were there like specific things to this kind of specific Star Wars universe that necessitated a different style of lighting than you would normally do? It was a mix of those those things, actually, because yes, it's so bad.

Of course, looks helpful. Production design is incredible. So I think, a nice frame and nice lighting comes a lot of like you say from the production design from the

sets that look great but there were different challenges on different sets for example you have the ISB sets where they have the meetings just the white room

with one soft box in top of it and I think all the depies who were in there try to shape it and we all ended up at something just even in it

and shaping the close-ups and that's it and that's what works best so those are actually all those white sets I think were for us really difficult but at the same time

really simple because we had to treat them simply like they were and we have to embrace the white and the white walls and I think those sets look great for what they are

and then you have sets like yeah the exterior and night scenes, for example, in the streets of Cornyn, yeah, that's all about, yeah, that was a lot of light over there and that's, yeah, of course the practicals on the on the streets are important, but that's something I discussed a lot with look, look, where to put them and what kind of things and it's something we did together, something I really love. Discussing practice. goes with a production designer and he yeah he is really good he he understands it straight away but that's just the background so so over there yeah it was a that was a really difficult

set because we had to shoot a lot was a lot of nights talking about the high scene they steal the yeah the high scene yeah the high see and and it's shooting a lot of different direction then so it that one was a technical really lightwise a difficult one and i think also one of my first big sets of me on under it was i think the second week or something so it was a yeah excited it started yeah you're just praying for that white room after that yeah i remember i interviewed uh adriano goldman a couple years ago for the first season And he mentioned something similar about the prison, the prison. I hope it was also white, yeah.

Yeah. And I think his answer was he just like would turn off lights on half the set and be like, whatever's not in frame, those lights go off. And then that's what we're doing. You know, that's the only way to get any contrast at all. Yeah. And I think a lot of those scenes, for example, one of my favorite scenes is the scenes with, with Dead Ryan

and Cyril and his mother who comes to age it's also again a white apartment and there's not a lot to do and it's if you see that scene out of her context it's nothing special but it's something I really lost at the end yeah

how do you manage highlights like where are you exposing a white room like just at key and then let it or like you know I think I'm

most of the time I'm overexposed it a bit yeah I'm thinking zone system I'm like does it go up like yeah I don't in the zone system I don't know where this

it's it's something I do oh you don't know zone 6 well bro no but it's it's In the zone, if I'm watching the false color, the only thing I watch on the false color is, okay, is there something red? No, okay, great. Is there too much purple? Okay, fine.

And then sometimes I look at the skin tones to see where the key is, but that's it for me. Everything else is just healing. I use an effort for me, something that's really important is to have a good money. I have my own flounders, which I take everywhere. That's nice. So I know that I calibrated every year and it's every production is calibrated. So I know it's, I know my monitor. So I don't have to worry too much about what I see is what I get.

So that's my most important tool. Yeah. I saw in a different interview you did that you were talking about. you did that you were talking about how like the, even with everything that's fantastical about the show that the kind of, like you were saying, that scene with Cyril and Deidre and those kind of more intimate discussion scenes were exciting for you, but also that you tried not to, in general, just like shoot coverage, do a lot of cross, you know, like shot, cross shot and stuff like that. So I was wondering, how do you avoid that in those types of scenes?

Because obviously, at a certain point, you can't just shoot one fluid, you know, steady camera shot between two people talking. How do you make those scenes interesting with them being your most, you know, your favorite? You have to, you need a good directive for it. And I think I was lucky with Ariel. He was on the same opinion that it's a, yeah, we should avoid normal coverage. I'm short with a result. Oh, close up long lens. for us

we did a lot of shot listing together and there we were looking for ITs to keep everything moving and yeah I think a lot of

avoiding the short reverse that comes from the movement of the actors and how they move in the space and yeah I think that's the main thing I really enjoy

this is completely separate, but like, I'm, I very much enjoyed, because I know that it was supposed to be like five seasons of this show, right? Initially, uh, I love the, the solution of just doing these three episode yearly chunks. I think like more shows, if they can should do that. I love the idea of like a three episode arc every, you know, it just, it made me very happy. But I was wondering how, like, did each, it must have, uh, each three episode chunk have like, each three episode chunk have like, its own look and approach like did in the sort of storytelling of it did you advance the look

age wise in some way or did you was the intent to keep it pretty consistent no yeah of course ISB sets

they were consistent more or less but I think the idea was really to give it for me and Harry to keep to treat every three episodes as a film

and also give it a slightly different look. For example, episode 1, 2, 3 is more sunny because it starts off like, everybody finds place, everybody's happy, there's a wedding. So it had to feel a little bit more shiny and sunny. So I think everywhere we could, there were some falling in the rooms even in Seville's apartment

and Dejaro's apartment everywhere we could we tried to have some sun warmer sun even towards the end of episode three where the sun is going really low and flary and then in episode four five and six

we were setting up the common walls which was a big moodier it was like a town in in the Italian Alps in North Italy. So it had to feel more winter, a bit more moody. Everything should be met all the time. So, yeah, we tried really to separate those three. We shot them also separate.

But it was nice because if you have to do six episodes in the same look, it can be boring. So it's really nice to just reinvent the new block you're doing. That actually brings up two thoughts. I'm going to make a note. I have notes. Hold on. Or did I put it?

Well, either way, I'll just try to remember. I don't have a great memory. One was I wanted to ask about, you mentioned like sunny stuff and whatever, but I know the grain field scenes were shot. You know, so one was real and then whatever, a year later or whatever, you had to shoot it on set. And I was wondering what specifically you did. I can't remember who made me realize

that this would be helpful in general. But what did you have to do to replicate the lighting? I know you were getting color meter readings on set, luckily, or on, you know, on location. But how did you replicate the look so seamlessly? I had a ceiling with a lot of sky panels. so I could choose the so I could dial in exactly the avian color

and then I used we were lucky when we were shooting that we never had full sun most of the time we had sun with a little bit of clouds soft clouds in front of it so there was direction that it was soft so we had a a money tool

with vortexes and sumo lights I don't know if you know them they're

quite punchy LED lights and so the good thing about this I had something punchy

I could put a diffusion in front of it or to take it away depending

of the scene and I could dial in the color I was so easy to dial in

the color exactly like it was on set and And I think that's the way I did it. And also, we cried, but we didn't use it. And that's a really nice thing about, you know, how you have the sun, you have those patchy clouds over the field.

So there was sun, the sun was moving all the time. The light was moving a lot. So we tried to have a chase on the ceiling. And it looked really great when you were standing on the set. but actually it's it's stupid because if you you'll break it out because you don't want to have something changing in your shot there but that's a nice thing about d's i love working with deli d's you can yeah especially with a good death cop you can you can you can do everything you dream of it's yeah yeah the like i was saying for doing docs like the one that or even just corporate stuff

but like doing interviews the thing that saved my ass more than anything is just setting up the key light, metering the window that, of course, I've sat them next to, and then just getting the X, Y coordinates and just dialing that in the back. And then now it's not even color temperature. It's color temperature plus bounce, plus whatever's going on outside. And it's just perfect every time. And it's like, it takes me 10 seconds, you know? That's also one of the tools that I always have with me is a good color meter. And I think that's, yeah, that's something, uh, I wish I had this earlier. Yeah. did you uh so the data the data points you were collecting on location was it like just

what's the sky doing or are you doing like sky direct sun shade like two two readings the the ambient light and then the sun yeah and and my d it was noting it and at every end of the day high it stills with those readings on that's something i used also the way i use the i use the i t is I don't do a lot of onset grading for me it's more he just gives me references on my monitor in the split screen

with for example the things we already did in the field and then on the stage I could just reference it visually and also with all the details of color color temperature of the camera which iso Baza was and all those things are on there so so it's

a good yeah and just if you have all those things already correct it's very easy to recreate it in the stage yeah it's like an advanced camera log yeah yeah um what did i see oh the second the second thing i wanted to say because you mentioned uh having a look be the same for a bunch of episodes could be boring i had this thought uh about you know obviously a lot of the show is shot practically um obviously there's plenty of the effects in it too. But it made me think that like when you're making films, it's not plumbing. You know,

there needs to be something that also excites the filmmakers, you know, in any department. And I think I'm settling on the idea that like, if it's, if it's on set and it's not practical, but it's exciting, the audience will find it exciting. If it's, if it isn't, it's not like that that excitement that the filmmakers have also translates to the viewers because there's plenty of films that are like very vFX heavy that audiences love you know this idea that oh practical is the only way to go i don't think is necessarily true in all cases but um what were some of the sort of more exciting i suppose uh practical stuff that you were able to participate in and then also what were some of the advantages and disadvantages to shooting that way for

a sci-fi show. The simplest and the thing I enjoyed to most was when we had Windows. It was always the discussions of upcoming. If you have Windows, blue screen, green screen,

painted backdrop or LED. And I was always most happy with or LED, but almost even more happy with a painted backdrop because you can light something like it's practical and you can shoot in all directions with smoke with flares without restrictions and if you have blue screen or green screen you have the restrictions of at most of flares so so it restricts you a little bit and then I think there are also things With the highs, for example, where the big truck rushes, that's all practical, actually. We had a truck that was on suspension that could lower down, could blow in the ground.

And we did, it's boys need to do something like that because you're testing those things, which camera were using. We had a real cam following the truck. We tested several systems how to do it perfectly because we had everything previous and there's one thing to previs something, but there's another thing to find those shots with a stunt. And it's really nice to work all those little technical things out. Yeah, for me, I enjoy those technical things, but like I said before, I love to shoot just scenes where there's good. acting. So, I mean, yeah, somewhere in the middle of it. Yeah, I mean, like, obviously, you'll be moved by an incredible performance, but also seeing a

kind of stormtrooper standing there is fun. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's real. I saw Tony Gilroy did an interview where he was talking about, you know, all the world building and stuff like that. And I was wondering how that affected the way that you approached shooting it. Like I assume you had plenty of discussions with Tony about like how you wanted it to feel. You made look books reference. I saw you referenced like Apocalypse now in some situations in like various. Yeah. So I was wondering if you could like walk me through what those discussions look like

and how they have informed the way you shot. I think the direction Tony gave was already a little bit in scripts. It was quite clear in the scripts. And then he's a good writer. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, but that's the thing. And that's really nice as a DP to work with someone like Tony is everything. It's already, it's almost coming on a plate.

So, yeah. And then, yeah, me and I, we did a lot of, we actually, we were. we had discussions in his office moid boards for every planet actually and we took our time to create those mood boards and then of course we talked a lot with Luke Howe

who had really beautiful concept art which also helps to give a direction of where to go because this concept art is incredible also yeah it's uh what were the

films that you guys I already said Apocalypse now, but was there like a list of films that you went and watched and were like, ooh, that, who that? No, to be honest, it's a lot of shop tech. And of course, for some scenes, for example, the opening scene of episode one, I went through a lot of Star Wars films just to see that big hanger for me was really, okay, how should I write it? it's again white and I watched a lot of Star Wars films again and I took from every show on the thing I reached and and but it's not that I took I copied something from another film it's just this is something I like from that film this also with the mood boards it's the same it's you have a movie board with so many different films

but yeah but this picture is just for the the flare and this picture is maybe something we should show Luke for the sets and another picture maybe for the practical lights. So I think it's those mood boards are about details that where you can, I'm a better talker with pictures actually. It's for me, this is what I mean about the practical lights or this is what I mean about the contrast I want to do. so so yeah it's just a way of talking communicating for me yeah the uh

I had something this is what I have see now this is the issue is I was really excited about the show I took too many notes I don't know like I don't know what where the fuck I'm going yeah

oh it was prep time you had quite a bit of prep time on this right yeah a lot which was good it's normally I'm always

fighting to have enough prep time on every job for ice prep is something I really enjoy and something that's really important for me and most of the time they don't want to give me it because

they yeah not all the people understand that it's important a good prep that it will save you time and money and while you're shooting around me And, yeah, I don't know it was, I had, I started prepping in mid-July, 22, I think,

and we started shooting mid-December. So, so, just for three episodes, yeah, usually six weeks is good, six months, it's great. And that was for three episodes, it was to do the first block of three episodes, but, But it's so good because you get to know all the people. Everybody was in the same office. VFX was there. They had a low level where they were working. Then the level underneath was an art department.

And then we were at the branch floor. And it was so nice. We had, every day, we had meetings with Luke with VFX, with SFX. So you're all working together as a team, and you have those little meetings where you just really quickly talk about things to do. Everybody goes to his office, starts working on this we come back, we readjust, and it's such, yeah, it's so nice to work like that. And I think it's something you really feel. To do a show like that, it's a team efforts, and you have to work together. And to work together and prep, you have to be together and you have to have the decent time to do it together.

Yeah. Did you find, obviously, if you're on a very truncated prep time, or in my case, sometimes it's like, just show up and we'll figure it out, you can only solve the most immediate problems, right? And then you just kind of hope that figured out. But when you're given that much time, as David Lynch famously said once, is like you're allowed to go dreamy with it. out in his case he goes real dreamy but i just mean like uh were there times where you were able to just kind of sit there and like throw a baseball at the wall and just be like ooh you know and have have inspiration come to you instead of having to go like mine for it oh no that's really it was we we had together a lot happened in in the office of a real the director

we were all together and sitting and brainstorming and then sometimes we were were brainstorming about a schedule a little bit boring but important too but then from some and then we every day we scheduled two hours or three hours just me and ii just talking about films and talking about really seeing reading photo books and just spitting out ideas and i think that that was really good and it didn't feel that we had to push out ideas and we had to be fast now You have the time to, yeah, to do that. And I think that's really true. Yeah.

But, you know, I've taken to asking any DP who brings it up about the photo books that they like because I started collecting them. Shout out to Tim Ives for getting me started on that five years ago. It's an expensive hobby. What photo books do you like in general, but which ones were you using for this? Or just kind of perusing through? I like, actually, I like a lot of press photos. What's the name again?

I'm always attracted to, yeah, documentary and press photos. I don't know why, but it's something, there's the reality in there that fascinates me. Also, the natural light, and that's the thing that attracts me the most. Kind of the Bresson kind of street photography type. thing, sort of. Yeah, but also war photography, for example, for Andro, it was quite useful. So, so it's a bit, yeah, I should say, to press those kind of things. And I think, yeah, it's interesting for me.

Yeah. You know, you mentioned everyone being in the same building. What was your conversations with VFX like? Because obviously certain movies, you can kind of tell that the VFX supervisor wasn't on set. But what were you talking with them about? How are they able to help you? How are you able to help them? I think for every set and every world,

we discussed every detail, actually. It's from like I mentioned before, OK, we have windows over there. What are we going to do with those windows? So that's one of the, for me personally, as a DP, one of the most important things. and then we did a lot of previewsing with them

and also the scenes which were full VFX they showed also their previous they did on it so for example the beginning with the dice fighter chase which is all full VFX

of course you have the inside in the cockpit but it was really important to see the direction they were going in we could give ideas and input to what they were doing and they did the same towards us. There was a lot of feedback loop between us, which works really well and what kind of discussions we had more. It's also sometimes we needed to know how, for example,

the safe house, how did the exterior look. So they created a 3D world of where the safe house was. So we could have an idea if we look outside, how does it look? So all those things, yeah, they think, yeah, they helped us a lot with it. They're really, really good. Yeah. And the safe house had going back to the backdrop. That had a painted backdrop, right?

Because you had like, no, LEDs. That was LEDs. Yes. So over there we used LEDs because there was a lot of nights. the patent backdrop doesn't work at night for me sure because you have to light it

versus an emissive yeah and the safe I was we had a lot of seeds in there so it's still expensive even for sure that kind of it's we had a huge

LED wall around to sit and it's really nice because yeah I want to have some more lights over there and they have they had all those layers which they could animate brighter or darker,

and we could choose the time of the day. So all those things were chosen before we start shooting. So for example, that's a good example of discussions with DSX. OK, we need five settings, a day of time settings, for the left wall. And yeah, so all those little things. And then we had to decide which ones, where is the side, yeah, all those things are on.

Yeah. You know, speaking of the Thai fighter sequence, I know you guys used some of the more prosumer cameras like FX3, FX6, whatever to blend in with the Venice. And I was wondering what were, if any, the challenges of using prosumer cameras with alongside the Venice and how you may have tackled those. Like, is there a color difference? Is there a exposure considerations on the on those less expensive cameras. I need a quick side by side test between the x66 fx3 and venice wine.

And actually because they're all sloch if and if you put a lot on they're quite similar, maybe a bit warmer and the the there's a little shifting. in color temperature and new. And of course, also in texture. Because the thing I noticed was everybody's always saying, with the FX3, you can film in the dark.

But then I was pushing, then I was pushing the Venice to its limits next to the FX tree and see, the Venice could go further. It's without too much noise. So that was a surprise for me. Maybe a good surprise. it's still a more expensive camera

but aside of that I think they're much really good and that's a nice thing about the Sony cameras and the family of cameras they really work well together I think the only problem

we bumped into was the FX3 as a stabilization in it and when we were using the camera on the gimbal and we were doing really violent moves the even with the stabilization

of the sensor was moving right because it's kind of on a loose gimbal in there almost yeah it's yeah but it's on a loose gimbal and it was really so we only used it where the motions were not too violent and then we brought in the ethics six

I know six yeah six I think it's a bigger one yeah There's the 9-2, but no one seemed to have used. No, but it's the 6, where you could lock the sensor, so it didn't have the same problem. Oh, I didn't know you can do that. The 6 has ibis? I don't know.

It has image stabilization, but I don't know. It didn't have the problem. Right, right. What about the workflow, like on an FX3, I have an F-55, so I don't even, you know, yeah but um on the fx3 obviously you don't have sdi you don't have time code you don't have like what how do you manage those kind of issues where you don't have just like the the features that a cinema body gives you but time coach we had a clap it's a time code on so that helps a lot and and um we also did tests together with iLM and also which format a film because we had the option

to record in Poros Hall on an external device. Then we had the option in, I forgot the codec, but the best codec on the FX3, X, A, B, C, S, probably. Yeah, yeah, something like about, yeah, I don't know. And we tested all the codecs and actually the best codec on the XX3 was also the best. All I have an zero item. It was better, it was better than the, the provost.

Do you know, was it like a limitation of the HDMI, like, maybe like the... I don't know, it's just, we all had the feeling that it looked better and cleaner straight from the camera. Maybe it's true, yeah, maybe through the HTML connection, I don't know. I do know that most cameras that shoot raw, like I have a C-500 Mark two as well on a C-70, and when you shoot raw on those, they're noisier. But that's because apparently I feel like most cameras have like, even if you turn it off, there is still noise reduction.

Noise reduction, if that's what it was. Maybe that's the thing that'll be sound. Yeah. Well, that's interesting. I always find it interesting to see when where digital cinema technology has come. Just because from my perspective, obviously, like when I started colleges when it started to progress. So like, I still feel like I have a real.

recent memory of like when I was fighting like oh no I'm using a 5D that's just as good you know and now I'm like it's not just as good it's not I think for me they are now the FX3 is almost now the FX3

is almost as good as Venice look at the creator it's just not as user friendly as a Venice it's just a silly camera you don't have the internet in these the menus are really shitty.

It's, it's, it's, it's, it's really not a, uh, use of friendly camera. It's not about it's, it's, uh, but the, the images come, you know, talking this is, it's for what it is. It's incredible. Yeah. I, I can't really point to a camera that exists in the past, even 10 years that, like, looks bad. You know, like, the one might be better than the other, but I don't know if like, you could

pick up almost any camera modern and be like, oh, that's actually just bad. No, what I also think is sometimes between colleagues, I hear a lot of discussions, ah,

I don't like that camera, I like that camera, and I don't agree with those discussions. I know, especially director in commercials, they can say, ah, but I love that camera, the look of the camera is better. But the look

of the camera, there's no look of the camera if you're using Lutz, you're throwing away the look of the camera. And film and scanning. Yeah, from the moment you start using custom Lutz, the look

of the camera is gone. And the only difference you feel is integrating and is the grader who feels it. Even you sitting next to him doesn't feel it. It's just Yeah, maybe how the highlights react

And how clean the blacks are That's maybe the difference And the resolution But the The other thing about Yeah, the look of the Alexa Is way better than the look of the Venice or of this camera

I don't agree with it Because I think You're a good creator Both cameras can look great It's it's so similar it's yeah it's just the way the camera

on set you feel a difference for me for example with the Venice the ISO flexibility you have with the Venice is such a plus compared to the Alex A&F for me in well you can push it way higher if we shoot with Alex Aleph

at a 3,200 ISO it's noisy. It's not ugly, but it's noisy. But on the furnace, it stays quite clean. But then on the Alexa left, yeah, the highlights are on all Alexa cameras,

the highlights are a little bit easier to manage, but you're on a set, you're on a film set, so you can control it. And the difference is really small. It's really, really, really small. That actually brings up some I've been wondering, which is, obviously back in the film days, like, I was taught at least that you had about three stops above and below key, and then after that, sorry, how do you approach

digital filmmaking just from a pure, like, let's just say with the Venice, or I'll ask if you have a lot of experience, I know you have experience in that, but where do you, where do you find your like latitude like are you are you kind of compressing your exposures when you're on set are you saying like all right skin can only be like a half stopover and then i'm only going to allow this stuff in the background to be like one or two and then the rest is up to god or like how are you kind of how do you mentally approach exposure well actually the way i do it is is because most of the time you're working for x-f and nine or cinema so i think how much stops you have in SDR, I mean, oh, is it seven, eight?

It's not going to, I don't, yeah, I think it's, I think it's eight. And, and, and, uh, most of the cameras right now is 14, 15 stops of a latitude. So, so it's too much, actually. So what I do is, is I, when I create my lots, I always compare it to the Rex 709 and contrast wise. So, so I have the same amount of stops in my nuts. And when I'm checking my false collar, I'm checking my false collar on the Lutz and not on the Loss. When I have a doubt, I'm going to have a look in my lock, but normally I don't look in my lock.

I'm looking on my REC-Silfinal 9, my lot signal. So, and then, yeah, I think for me, the most important thing is there, no RETs, not too much. Of course, you cannot avoid it. And, and, well, the blacks. The purples, I also watch. And then, yeah, of course, when you're shooting in a desert, my skin tones are a little bit overexposed. I'm looking for purple, a bit in, no, not purple.

Yellow. Pink, yep. No, pink, pink, a lot of pink in the face. Then I'm in a darker environment. It's a bit of green. Those are my benchmarks, actually, but not, yeah. That was a big thing that helped me out a lot, was getting an external monitor and getting the EL zones.

Shout out to Ed Lockman. Just so, you know, because I use a spot meter still, but it's nice to just be able to visualize it. And then just like you're saying, I'll use that. And then like I said, I tend to do like three stops up, three stops down. And then I'll toggle on the camera monitor, the false color that shows me the log false color, exactly for clipping or crushing.

And I'm like, all right, we're good. You know, it's so helpful. But those cameras, actually, if you're working for X-709 or cinema, you have so much, I shouldn't say it, but you have so much room for error compared to film. So, yeah, in a way it's easier, but now more and more shows are H-DR, so that's where you start to, yeah, you're using more and more from the latitude of the camera. Have you seen, I don't know how nerdy you are, but. Have you seen Yedlin's HDR? Not the, not the old one, but the new, the like last month, he came out with his little demo about how HDR implementation is bad. I don't know.

Dude. It's two hours now, but it's fascinating. I'm, I'm, I'm in the SBC, the Belgian Society of Cinema Universe, and I'm in the technical committee also over there. And, oh, HR comes up quite a bit of there. And I'm doing a lot of TV shows, so I'm a lot of the time time I'm confronted to be it in the Great also. Yeah. And it, yeah, I think you have to treat it like headroom in audio.

It's there when you need to use it, but you don't have to use it all the time. And under, there was also an HR grade, but it's really, it has an SDR look to it. and sometimes in brighter since it becomes brighter but that's all there's to it I think the thing he specifically was talking about that I had no idea about like I'm relatively educated

but obviously not at his level and I didn't realize that SDR is like a floating skit you know whatever TV you turn on normal SDR stuff the brightness just will adjust you know, it's like kind of like a siding scale, but HDR goes, that's 20 IRA and it pegs it there.

So if you have a bad TV, when people are complaining about, oh, everything looks too dark, it's like, well, because you probably got a TCL television and anything under 100 IRA is just crushed and that's all of SDR. Unless you have an SDR TV,

which will move it, you know, appropriately. And I was like, I didn't know that. That's actually fascinating. Because why keep prescriptive if the TV can't do it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think it's a good thing, but it's not used. A good example is also a lot of Netflix shows ask Bobby Vision, AGR. Right.

And the idea behind it is really good because it adapts to the television. So it sees, okay, this television is 500 minutes, so, okay, let's use those beds. this television is a thousand it, so use this. So that's really good. But the bad thing about it is we, as a cinematographer, we need to grade it HDR first. Oh. Unnormal grading it.

Of course, I always try to grade it with an SDR look, but then it converts it automatically to SDR, and then it doesn't look good anymore. Then you have to, you have just six control buttons to contrast and saturation. It's like just adjusting your television, but you don't have a lot of controls anymore. And that's really painful way to work.

And I think, yeah, hopefully those things will be solved soon. Yeah, I think it sounds like the smart people are on it. Well, I guess you're one of the smart people as you're on the technology. But you brought up, there's a lot of room for there's a lot of leeway for screwing up and exposure or whatever. I wanted to hone in on that a little bit and talk about, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but what you mean is like, oh, if something's a little under exposed or a little overexposed, like you can solve that in the

grade, no problem. But what about your lighting ratios? Do you find that digital allows for fudging there? Like, can you add contrast? I kind of know the answers, but can you add contrast in the grade to fix maybe you didn't give enough contrast to the image, or does that always look bad? It always looks better when you get it right for some sets. You can fix things in the post, but it will always look better when you get it right on sets. That's the term. Yeah. Well, I guess I'm asking for other people, but the idea of like there's two different types of in this theoretical.

There's two different types of leeway that digital gives you, one being the whole image being overexposed or under-exposed. And then the other one being, again, ratios and stuff. And I guess we're going to talk about that with a lot, like making a contrast. But also, the ratios also, if you want to have more contrast in the face, but not on the backgrounds, then you start working with masks and, yeah, it works. But it always feels a little bit off. And I think those ratios, you have to nail them all set.

I think that's really important. Well, I mean, and the other thing, too, is on a professional level, no colorist is going to have the time to sit there. Like, you can, like, I've done it. You know, you get the depth map on the person in front and then go into the back and then drop it and pump the highlight so it looks normal. But, like, no colorist is going to spend 10 minutes. per shot just to do that part.

You know, like, you know, but that's a thing. And it's not only, and to fix it more part. Even if you have the time, even if you have the time, you'll still feel it that there's something not natural.

Yeah. The, uh, how do you find that you sell naturalism? Like how, if you're in a completely controlled space, what makes something feel natural as opposed to, kind of lit

simplistically. You know, like, oh, obviously people go, oh, put a big 12-5, bash some light through it, nice soft source, we're good. It doesn't always look natural. How do you make that work?

I think the natural feel comes from the good balance of fee and still, I think. Especially if you're working in stages. I try to constrain myself to always ask for ceilings so I cannot put anything on the ceiling and physical ceiling so you can't light.

Yes, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I always, for me, it's important that sources are where in the natural environment the sources are. And I think that's the way I always try to work. I think that the extra difficulty in a stage is that if you have windows, you have the fill out on top of the windows and it's the key community.

So that ratio is quite important. And also the color ratio between the sun, for example, and then the shades. Those ratios are important for me. I think it's more about the ratios between colors and, and in the field, I think. And most important, the directions. Don't get a light where it cannot come from. Well, so following that,

what's the difference between putting all of the practicals and sources on your set from where they would be in reality versus just going to a location and turning on the camera and going. It's where it is. That's where the light comes from. It's on a location, but on the stage. This is a leading question, by the way. Yeah, no, no.

But on, for example, if Windows on a location, you put a Siri Pickering front of the windows with or soft or art lights. But yeah, and that's maybe a better way to say it. On a stage, I treat it like I'm lighting sets, a real set on occasion. That's, I always try to approach you like. it. Well, and then my, because that was a bullshit question, my thing. Yeah, no, no, no, no. No, I mean, like, I know the answer, but, you know, it's supposed to be educational. Uh, my thing was also going to be like, the sun could be coming from anywhere, but at least on a set, you can control how bright that fake sun. You know, you can control it's, even though the lights are placed where they are, even if it's the exact, you know, maybe you're making a replica of an exact spot that was in reality on a set. You get to control the ratio, you know, the, the, the brightness of everything and yada, yada. sorry to come back a good example

was the fields the fields we shot in real fields and then on the stage I think there the most difficult thing was to find the good ratio between the sun and the film and how the softness of the film I think that was for me

the most difficult thing to make it look natural dialing in the colors was easy because I measured there anything So it's just those ratios who are, who are quite difficult. Well, and all of that grain is quite reflective. Yeah. You know, so you could lose contrast pretty quick in there, I assume. The, this has to, this is probably your biggest project to date, yeah?

Yeah. What, not that you haven't done some sick, probably like Lupin was sick. What was it? I didn't, I haven't obviously watched it, but even just the looking up, um, Uh, infinity. That looked pretty cool. Yeah. That was a nice thing to do. Yeah.

The, um, what are some of the lessons you learned from doing such a big project? And obviously like Disney Star Wars is kind of at the upper tier of, um, uh, at least expectations, uh, nowadays. Like, what were some of the things that you maybe didn't expect or, um, not didn't expect, but were surprising to you, things that you learned. Um, and also, So what are some, maybe some things that you brought to that were maybe like you learned from other projects that you were able to apply to and or?

What I learned was, to be honest, in the beginning, when I was starting, I was a little bit nourished. I was a big show and big crew and big expectations. But I think it's not so different than doing something smaller. it's the same problems not enough time not enough money yeah

yeah and and that's I think also one of the things I like about my job

is the problem solving and yeah it's for me that felt quite

the same than on the smaller shops yeah and what I learned is yeah the prep

again it's it's small nice it is to have such a good prep. And it will make me fight even harder next time when they don't give me the prep I need to just, yeah,

multiple time and really use it. And also to, I think it's also so good to be all together in the same office because sometimes also you can have, in France, they work a lot like that, that the prep is a lot at home and everybody's working in his own corner, but not in the same office. and that's still different.

I think it's really good to be in the same office and work all together. Yeah, you know, there's obviously been a lot of, ever since COVID, a lot of work from home changes, a lot of obviously Zoom meetings. And I think I've settled on the idea that like working from home, this is less cinematography, but like working from home is perfectly acceptable. Even having certain meetings over online is perfectly acceptable. But for creative discussions, those should be in person. yeah a schedule is perfect to discuss on zoom but from the moment you're starting

yeah to be creating you need to be in the same room so you can point to pictures and yeah you have to draw on papers yeah you need to be together yes and I think a lot of thing I learned is to appreciate pre lights on under I did a lot of prelights oh pre light I thought you said re-light. I was like, oh, no. No, no. Free lights. And, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, yeah, I really enjoy it.

Just the day before we go to set or a few days before, I went to the set, just to, yeah, to pre-light everything. And then the nice thing was, we were all shooting at Pinewood. So when I was a prep, my rigging effort could come to me and say, ah, I did the changes. You asked. over as it looks, we'll walk over there. Yeah, that's good.

Maybe can't change this or maybe you should try another fixture over there. Okay, I will try it tomorrow and we'll be ready. And it's so nice to to try to keep it as good as possible. Yeah. Well, and I think that actually

highlights how, you know, obviously here in L.A. there's been a lot of discussions about how like the stages are empty. a lot of people moving production to other places and stuff but I think what you're speaking to highlights how important

not the studio system necessarily but but the studios are the physical places where you can walk around and see other things get inspired by the things have you know in our case the bungalows

where you're all together you know like that creative environment I think has been undervalued not that I'm experiencing them but I can feel it no no but I totally agree because it's yeah

You're in the office, all working together. My geffer was in the office next to me with this rigging geoffer. And sometimes you said, okay, this afternoon, let's walk to all the stages. And just all the sets of building, let's have a discussion. And on those walks, we had ideas and we tried different things. And it's, yeah, it's really creative. And that's really difficult without such practice. and also without being

everything being at the same it's so nice that everybody was everything and everybody was concentrated around Pinewoods so we could watch from there and in our little bubble a big bubble

right well and it's like it's it you know if it's exciting for you it'll be exciting for you obviously like I was one of the people who was very vocal

about getting the first season on Blu-ray I don't know if Disney listened to us specifically but like I was like I swear to God if they take this offline I'm going to be pissed. But just because it's, I mean, the first season and especially the second season, in my opinion, are just absolute A plus, you know, everyone's just firing on all cylinders. And I think it does, that doesn't happen.

Obviously the characters are compelling and whatever, but like that doesn't happen without all of that, the creative people getting together and being creative and being excited about doing that, you know, I think that part isn't. I think people are, whoever has the money seems to not be so excited about letting creative people get together and kind of goof off for a while. Yeah, I think that's also one of the strengths of Tony and Sanna. I think the thing that they did really well was creating a good team, just finding the good people together. Me and I, of course, yeah, Luke Hill, who's incredible, talented. They just made a team that really worked together as a family.

And also they gave us a lot of freedom, actually. Just from the moment they trusted us, they gave us quite a bit of freedom. Of course, you had creative discussions and, but yeah, the way they approached it was really nice. I know I've got to let you go here in a sec well technically we're over but I did want to ask is there is there a scene in those first you did six episodes right not just the first three

yeah for six six is there a scene in any of those episodes that you felt really like represented your signature like something you looked at and you went like I that's if I had one scene in my reel that's the that's the one

oh no it's it's i have a lot of scenes it's it's you can give me a collection that's fine it's it's it's for example i lost a lot the seat of the wedding scene at the end but the thing is it's everyone but it's totally not my style it's it's it's and normally i do more darker prettier things and that was quite shiny and so uh because it's not my style i really like it and then uh which is more of my thing, is the meeting with Kenick in the mountains

in that dark with the projection and everything. That's a painted backdrop also over there. And I really love to... The scene is not special, but I really like the moot in there

in that world. Yeah. And then what else? All the Javin stuff. I love also in the... But in the field, say, in the episode one and two.

it's it's uh yeah for me it was i love apoclips now and it was almost like playing with between star wars and apocalypse now and and yeah so yeah i think from each episode i've my little scenes i like yeah the uh yeah it's yeah it all looks good i did okay that sorry last question i did forget uh uh because you shot ultra ultra vista yeah yeah

Star Wars, obviously, famously, the original one, along with films of that era. Famously, like, C-series, animorphics, you know, why go... Like the first season? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Why change lenses? Because I wanted to shoot for French. So the C, Palantision C lenses? Super 35?

Yeah. Oh. and the C series don't cover the full frame of Zinnis. And also, with the squeeze factor 2 of the C's, even in Super 35, you're losing quite a bit of your sensor. So you're even shooting a bit smaller than Super 35. And with the ultra-vistas, they cover full frame, and there's squeeze factor 1.6.

So you're almost using the whole sensor. that means you have a lot of sense to work with. And I really like to show it to white and stay close to the character. Right. And that meant that you could be with the character, but at the same time, kill the background and feel all those beautiful worlds that are created by look. So, yeah, there's, I don't think everybody will see the difference,

I hope they will feel it and it's something yeah well it's you know for me it's something I feel yeah something that felt for me

that had to be changed yeah I mean it's I think people feel it they don't see it's totally different I felt it I assume you just didn't

shoot those wide open right especially if you're trying to quite a bit Really? Hey, I paid for T1.5. I'm going to use it, you know? No, but they're the 2.8 and 4. So I think some of them were even a bit lower than 2.8s, but I don't know.

Reasonable. Yeah. Yeah. But to give an example, a white lens, a 50 is a really white lens in that setup. Right. So, yeah. Because you were shooting most, I saw you mostly shooting on like 40, right? Somewhere around there.

14, 50, and 65. I think those are the most use lenses. Yeah. Well, the show is literally probably my favorite, season one and two, but especially two in the past 10 years. So congratulations on doing a good job. Thank you very much. Yeah.

Hopefully, are you working on anything right now? Are you got some in the pipes? Yes, I'm starting something in October, but I cannot tell too much about it. What? I was just going to say when that gets settled up, I'd love to have you back on and talk about whatever that is. Thank you. Thank you very much. It was a, it would be a nice. Yeah. It's, uh, it's been an absolute pleasure.

Frame and Reference is an Albot production, produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so by going to frame and refpod.com and clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated. And as always, thanks for listening. Thank you.