Frame & Reference Podcast - 204: "Adolescence" Cinematographer Matthew Lewis

Episode Date: August 14, 2025

We've got another incredible episode this week with Matt Lewis coming in to talk about his absolute triumph of a series Adolescence, in which each of the four hour-long episodes was shot in a single take.Enjoy!► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠F&R Online ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Support F&R⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Watch on YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Produced by Kenny McMillan► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Hello, and welcome to this, episode 204 of Frame and Reference. You're about to drop into a conversation between me, Kenny McMillan, and my guest, Matt Lewis, DP of Adolescence. Enjoy. I will say when the show came out, you know, all my friends know I have to probably, but like, I probably got more text messages from friends going like, have you seen this show? You got to talk to this guy. Like, immediately.

That was so funny. My sister doesn't get weird to me about this. And she was just like, you have to. I need to know. That's brilliant. That's great. It honestly still blows my mind that the response that we've got from it. it's you could never like you just don't think that's going to happen ever and then uh yeah it's

taking some getting used to but um i'm just buzzing that people love it so much it's great it's brilliant well and especially when you put that much work into it you know like oh it was easy it was a breeze no imagine um yeah no it was uh yeah i guess so i guess so but the we're always doing it for ourselves so i think that's what strange is that you're just sort of you're sort of mates making a film and you just don't think or making a show rather and you don't think that the world will see it like that. Yeah. Yeah, because I imagine, I mean, from the interviews I had seen with like the various departments and stuff, like it seemed to be a very like collaborative maybe feeling more like a student film than like an actual production in the sense of like

yeah, yeah, no completely unusual way. Yeah, definitely. It's something that I think there was only there was only one way to do it and that was to collaborate like there were you know you couldn't make this and be in departments that were isolating themselves from each other like it was at its core it was collaboration and I think what aided that was the the fact that there was a little bit of pressure on everyone um everyone's role was important and so there was way less ego to think because of that because everyone was of value and like it sometimes on film says people like to pretend like one job's more important than another um but on that that one in particular because everyone was so crucial when it was showtime, as it were.

We did know, created this atmosphere of collaboration and of sort of camaraderie, which was lovely, to be honest. I wish every job was like that, to be honest. Yeah. Well, and yeah, because like, I did, I was watch, I watched part of it, but the Ursa Stra straps had like an interview with the sound department that I didn't get through, but I was just like, oh my God, sound must have been freaking out the entire time. Yeah. Yeah, honestly, like, their challenge was great as anyone's. It was like, yeah, they were doing dances around camera as we were, you know, doing dances around the cast.

It was this sort of ridiculous feat. I don't know how anyone performed while there was so much, like, like how the cast managed to be so in the zone, in their performance when you've got, you know, me like with a camera dripping sweat onto like the table in front of them and then you've got like two boom-ops flying around next to me. Like, yeah, it must be quite distracting. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, one of the best compliments, I'm a DP, one of the best comp, or not, I shouldn't even say best, but I was working on this documentary and we had all these lights set up and the sound guy was kind of sitting in the corner like stewing.

And then when it was time to go, I was like, hey, I've left you a little gap right there. And he just went. Yeah. Nice. Like suddenly he loves me. You know, no shadow, nothing. He was like, whitt. Wow.

Amazing. Thank you so much. Yeah. Yeah, it's nice. Sometimes I think sound teams feel like they can't, like, the DPs will always, you know, won't listen to their concerns, I guess. But it's, but, you know, if it sounds crap, like, it's bad for you too. Like, good sound makes a good cinematographer. No, hold of.

Something about if it sounds is good, it lifts the cinematography. I think that's really true. So always, always look after your sound team, like facts. Well, and it's like, whenever I talk. to like students or anything about getting a new this gets brought up a lot but like getting new cameras and stuff everyone's like what should I get in 2025 and I'm always like whatever you can afford man just like yeah focus on your sound you know color grading is a lot more accessible now that'll you know raise the stakes quite a bit in many cases completely but I mean yeah it's it's like

ostensibly a consumer camera I mean I was going to say like it's it's a it's a it's a pro camera ultimately I've got it's not just over there they just used it on a job um is it yours It's not that one. The one that we used, isn't it's actually, it's, it's gone back to the rental house and they, like, put it in a penny case with, like, you want to put it in a penny case with like a plaque on the lid, like in the lid being like, this was the camera you used for adolescents and so I think it's really cute. But I bought one afterwards, which, because I was just like, it's a great camera. So, yeah, I should have spoken to DGI, so I bet it would have hooked me out. Oh, they would have given it. We live and we learn.

Yeah. I didn't know that, like, it was going to be a big hit. So I just love like, oh, I'm going to get the camera. camera. So yeah, now I feel like a bit of a mug. But anyway, yeah. So what was I saying? I can't remember. But yeah. I think I interrupt you. Oh, yeah. It's a pro semer camera ultimately, isn't it? So it's just, you know, it's got loads of limitations. It's got loads of kind of things that, you know, aren't perfect about it. But it's also got loads of things that's great at. One of them happens to be doing one shots. So, you know, and I'm just generally movement with our camera.

It's fantastic. So it's always utilizing it in the way that, you know, makes most sense. for your story for your project but you know the limitations on it is stuff that you know 10 years ago so like it's got two

two or three stops less dynamic range maybe two stops than like you know like a mini a left or something right but like that's in the highlights most people aren't going to care like most people watching your thing aren't going to care if they can't see

the edge of the cloud outside right you know what I mean like if you if you sit it if you expose it in the right place you're going to be fine and the audience aren't going to care And I think storytelling is always, you know, you can use anything to tell a story. And those things that we get so obsessed over, I think it's really funny. I do the same. So we're all guilty of it.

Well, because 709 is eight stops. So like. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. As long as you can kind of fade that highlight out or whatever. Exactly. It's more about the roll off of the highlight than it is, you know, the overall range or whatever and what you're actually capturing. If you're inside and the sky is blown out.

outside like unless the story's happening in the sky outside you're probably okay if you've got a colorist or even more okay um but like you know yeah it's just priority isn't it it's like what it's prioritizing what's important for your projects i mean i've seen plenty of films where i've interviewed the dp about and they're just like oh yeah we just put like the with outside the window is the light yeah like it's just like a 12-by they're like it's blown out who cares i don't need like people can't do that anymore now like you got like alexa 35 venice too they're all like you can see everything else out the grid yeah yeah yeah yeah you can see the barn doors of that lamp damn it like i just kind of blow that out so i don't do that

you know so you got to lift the whole interior by like you know how it really stops to blow it all out but um yeah it's funny that you end up actually seeing more problems that sometimes than you want to uh yeah or even just like yeah you can just put some you did diffuse some window and to make it look like it's blown out sky sometimes you have to do that no one loves to do it but you have to and it's even harder to do that now so because it would just be like middle gray

on the window like damn yeah you know what's funny I was interviewing Catherine Goldschmidt about the Last of Us the second season yeah she was saying that there was a few shots where she had to use a run and because it was like

there wasn't enough space to put like the 35 I think they were using was that under the barbed wire yeah yeah sorry yeah yeah yeah she had like this kind of scorpion arm or whatever that they could be on the ground

like it was a specific one and then they just attached to that and the same thing they use the cooks the SB3s yeah yeah and my buddy did more owns like tool yeah yeah I know so they really

like for a camera that came out five years ago or whatever it is like it's suddenly seeing this yeah and use Civil War, obviously. Yeah, it is. You know, I think people are

recognizing the importance of what it can do. And even if it's just saving your ass one day, like, you haven't got enough time to like lay the track and, and you're like, oh, God, like, on the steady cam ups on a daily and he's not here. And it's like, okay, well, you know,

just pick up the 4D, you know, like, accept that the image isn't going to be exactly the same, but you can probably grade it within 99% of sort of most people's recognition of what the, you know, the two cameras. And then, and then run around with it and get the shot you needed to get and not be ashamed of the fact that you've used a different system that only cost, you know, 10 grand or whatever.

So, yeah. What were the kind of like tradeoffs? Because obviously I, well, I shouldn't assume. I can just ask you, but, you know. Assume away. It's fine. Yeah. I'm assuming, obviously, not having to balance a gimbal, which takes, that's going to eat up half your day.

Yeah. Size, weight and stuff. But, like, what were, what were the considerations into using that versus, like, you know, trading off using a more sort of, I suppose, professional system. Yeah, I mean, professional systems were heavier. I think that's one of the main things. But yeah, like we tested a Ronin 2 as like Sony Barano. We tried the sort of ZG system, which is a wicked system.

But again, it wasn't quite the right steel and it was super heavy. You know, movies, all sorts of like different gimbals. Well, that's right. There was awkward weird. there was another gimbal thing that I tried that was super strange I've got it somewhere was it the lettuce the two-handed lettuce

yes yes yeah yeah is it called lettuce I don't know it's quite lighters well maybe or whatever it is yeah yeah yeah the helix letters yeah yeah that guy um tried that I mean like again good for some stuff but but not for what we wanted to do I wanted to feel more like a gimbal and then like your gimbal wise you're either flying uh like a Ronan RS like three or four now is it um you know there's like a smaller camera with a recorder like

they did on the creator which is like a really like brilliant rig where it's like shoulder mounted which is really cool so we tried that um and then you know it just came around to the fact that like the priority for this piece was being able to move in an interesting way in a dynamic way in a way that would enable us to do the most storytelling like without limitations and like if i was walking around uh you know with the ronin too with like and then to like carry it you need like uh like easy rig or like a you know um ready rig or something over me and suddenly i'm like a literal like my king con walking through the set like knocking into everything it would have just been impossible like even just getting for a doorway it's hard like you

know obviously a steady cam was a consideration but there's no way you could do that for an hour um so it was it was kind of the only tool for the job in so many regards because it was this the little thing fairly little. I mean, it still hurts if you hold it for like 15 minutes out in front of you or 10 minutes out in front you, you're going to be, you're going to feel it, which is why we dual operated, me and my operated lead, well,

not dual operated, but handed it between each other. But yeah, there's other drawbacks like, yeah, like we've said about dynamic range. We had to use the 6K head because we couldn't record 8K for the length of time we needed it on the one terabyte card.

Um, so we have a limited slot. It does only have one slot and it only has one terabyte cards and, uh, are they specialty. They're SSDs. Um, we could have, I don't know if we could have. We didn't try. Um, like, maybe got a larger hard drive and SSD in, but I think there would have been like a firmware block within the camera anyway. Um, it wouldn't have let you do that. Um, so. Yeah. So, so we're limited to the 6k head, which meant that there's a little bit more rolling shutter, a little bit more Moire than the 8K.

It doesn't have the OLPS on it, so it's, you know, stripped back in that sense. So we just have to be wary of those things. But again, like, once you know of the limitations, you can, you know, well, we had the luxury of being able to adapt the image to that. So there was some chain link sensing that was causing Warray. so we covered it with posters or banners and stuff at the school like we broke it all up so we just noticed the stuff we were aware netflix were really great and helpful with us uh you know because obviously this is not on approved camera so we had to like specially approve it for this for doing these um and they were gave us a whole list of things to watch out for and we gave us a whole list of things to watch out for and we gave us a test with them and like showed them what we were doing to make sure that they knew we weren't nuts and that we were going to make something that look good regardless of the camera um you know so yeah there's all those things but like the pros of it i mean it's lightway it can be handed between two people it can go from like gimbal um

with the z-axis enabled to gimbled without the z-axis enabled so you can like run really fast and you can also do more intricate moves like close-ups where you don't see the z-axis going up and down you can lock the gimbal all mid-shot so you can like hold sport mode whoever it's called and that locks tilt and pan so then it's just doing roll which is kind of a bit of ham-held at no one wants anyway it's quite nice Well, no, that's a broad statement, but it's pretty good. So that's great. The built-in transmission that DGI have is brilliant.

Like, it's got more latency than other systems, but it's really good range. And for like focus, monitors. Yeah, yeah. So, like, we, so we went to, our DGI system went to the focus puller. And the focus puller was wearing a backpack that basically he received the image from the transmission, the DGI and then he pumped an image into

a Vaxis system which then distributed it a little bit further he was the node for everyone else yeah yeah but we needed to make sure that he was the person that had signal at all the times right even if the Vaxon system went down a little bit

you know they could just about get by ish he had to be the one that was you know the closest to the action to make sure he had the best image but yeah so you got the transmission that's built in what else is there it was prores raw which was great we managed to shoot that for all of them

and then we did a bunch of tests in the grade and we were super happy with how it looked yeah it's a good bit of kit I mean there was limitations with a lens choice we were you know you're limited to small sort of like lightweight lenses I think the limit of their head is like a hundred so 1,200,000 or something similar.

So you're sort of like, you either have a lens that's within that weight or you have the problem that we had, which is we needed to control exposure via like a variable ND, filsa, which we use like the TILSA Mirage, which was like stripped back. It had the variable ND in it with a little wireless motor and remote. That added, that was obviously like,

I think I measured it. It was like 300 grams, which isn't a lot. I think it's pretty light when you strip it right back. It's a lot when you've only got 1,100 or 200 grams to wear it. So then thankfully the SP3s we used were like 650 grams. I think we came, yeah, it was something like that because it all came within like 50 grams of the limit.

You could probably straddle that limit and get the other side of it and it then be okay. But we wanted it to form it at its best for, you know, the length of time and not bug out with us. that was the other thing with like something like a ronin too you're like it's brilliant when you've got a ron in tech that can every 15 minutes make sure that everything's sweet but like oh you know that's good like a music video and so like narrative stuff it's not like this but you know when you've got things getting loose and you've got like your pan starting to drift

and your joystick getting buggy like it's you know it's going to stitch you up and we need there was like 100,000 things that could go wrong on this production that we needed to make sure that the things that we could avoid going wrong didn't go wrong. And like if we can make sure camera was weirdly quite a reliable point, you know, throughout, then that would mean that there would be less blame on us if things were wrong. Right. Which is always key. You just don't want the technology to be letting you down limiting the story. Like if all the performers were smashing it and the set, you know, and then like we weren't getting, we weren't able to complete the episodes because the camera couldn't do it

then we would look really silly so we had to choose the system that was at least the most reliable as well but it did so much more than just be reliable so yeah I definitely should have got a free rolling 4D after saying well this shouldn't I God we'll see I don't know anyone I mean it all yeah we'll have to

I want one too by the way so yeah so we just hook up Kenny as well please yes please yeah you know it sucks I I'm actually so I'm working on this docky series and my buddy's the producer. You know, I've known him for 12 years, 15 years. And so he's very forward with me. And shooting, you know, he doesn't really know camera systems.

It's just like he doesn't want problems, you know, classic producer. And they were often like the Bahamas or something. And he was running second camera, which he does a lot, weirdly enough. And it was a Ronan, I think it was the 8K. And he starts texting me. He's like, why don't you get one of these? I'm like, what do you mean? why don't I like it's not expensive but it's not cheap like yeah it's just like a bit of cash

laying around like it's enough when you get a full package every new gig he wants me to buy something new to make his life easier and I'm like just I want to make my life easier yeah like not be in debt please yeah it's it's it's it's it's expensive enough that it is prohibitive like it's not like you can't just get one for a few thousand but it's comparatively to you know how horrendously expensive like cinema cameras are not horrendously expensive i'm sure all the engineering involved you know all that sort of stuff but it is like there's no way you can buy one if you're just a normal person really um so you know this is the first time i've owned a cinema camera um and that's because yeah like i've i haven't got like dude i'm like i was 28 when i shot i've left

since, yeah. I'm not been doing this necessarily, you know, since I came out of the womb. And my dad isn't a DP with Alexa or anything. So I'm not like, I can't, you know, there's no. So it's very much like, I've just, yeah, I've basically just been going to rental houses and using their cameras for years because I can't buy, you know, whatever, Alexa 35. So. Yeah. I got a C500 mark two. And I got the nice in the country, right? It was, I got several. And I was so stoked on it Like, you know, there was a lot of buzz around it And then the pandemic hit

And so I didn't I was just sitting on it I used it as the podcast webcam for like two years Because of you know, what else? Nice. Oh, every DDP would get on and go, What the fuck are you doing? And I'm like, what if you're shooting?

Yeah, you know, I'm on like a 50. It's, you know, and Yeah, it did end up paying itself off later But there was certainly a few years there where I was like, oh. Yeah, bad timing, man. That's unfortunate. And then, you know, the FX series started coming out.

Yeah. Bloods changed and people stopped asking for it unless it was like a doc. Yeah. But it is, I mean, there's something to be said for obviously owning your own cameras. It's a lot easier to get hired as a freelancer for certain. I bet. Oh, yeah. You know?

Absolutely. But at the same time, like, it is kind of the dream to not have to go in debt and just rent, you know, to be, to be. Yeah, I've been super lucky completely. Like, I've been, you know, I've been on jobs that have always their route has always been to rank it from from you know it's been narrative work basically I think if I was in the commercial world more that's where you might be able to sort of do like a smaller commercial or mid-sized commercial and bring on your kit and they love that there whereas the thinking narrative they really appreciate the um going to a

company that is going to have staff and they're going to be able to if something goes wrong support yeah if something goes wrong they can just you know go out and help and have that if it's just the DPs kit you're like, oh man, then the loader's got to go to the bungles, get like a replacement path from CVP or whatever and it's just like, yeah, the whole thing is just a bit more of a mess isn't it? Yeah, you started as a loader

right? Well, yeah, I started like after university, I went a camera trainee and load it on like music videos and stuff, trying desperately to form a bond with any sort of camera team that would want to be there because I just like, you know, you never know

what to do when you leave you and you're sort of like people tell you like, oh, make a, make a website and a business card and you're going to, this is going to be sweet. I like none of those things that else will really, I mean, I mean, do them, but like they're not the thing that's going to build you a career. So it was very much like doing free sort of music videos on Facebook and just sort of like trying to find like, you know, cruise to settle in with. And I was doing, I was doing loading while I basically started shooting short films.

like alongside with um with phil who's the director of adolescence he was in my graduate film um as an actor uh and that's how we met and then um we basically he he called me up like a year after uni and was like really enjoyed working with you on that on that um film you want to make some short films and so i started shooting with him just like alongside like not telling anyone i was making stuff because he always feel a bit funny about that yeah um and i was I was focus pulling when I shot boiling point and I didn't I wasn't telling people that I was

doing that it was only when boiling point came out people started to be like oh on didn't you shoot that you're like the focus puller and I was like yeah yeah but but even then after that came out like it was post pandemic and and and I needed to earn a living I needed to put a roof over my head so I was focus pulling kind of up until I got off of my first TV job as a DP

because just you know you can't you can't just pull yourself a DP and then all the work comes in it's like really there's like it's a real as everyone knows so you know you've got to just do what you need to to be within your means to survive until you can make that jump and even then I shot an episode of television for the BBC and then I got like no work and was skin and I had to like you know go into my overdraft and it was the whole thing of I've got no money again and you know you do this whole sort of cycle of like yes i've got some cash finally and then like try and like keep hold of that and you just see it go and go and go and go and then you also take out i've got no money again uh and i mean like pastor and ketchup up to survive like good good this is fun um so yeah

it's that whole that whole rigmarole but then work gradually picked up more and more and we and now we're we're okay but it's um it takes time takes a lot of time um well i say that i'm still not 30 yet so i've been very fortunate that it's all happened sort of like at this age for me. Brother, I'm 35 and very poor. So, you know, comparison is the feet of joy. I've been very lucky. I've been exceptionally lucky with my circumstances. I've everything.

So, you know. Well, I will say that I've noticed all the DPs I've met from the UK, there does seem to be, whether it be through the BBC or the other like kind of channels, the way that the UK seems to support. filmmakers in a way that at least in LA but let's just say yes they they don't there seems to be a lot of younger heads of department coming out of the UK with experience it's not just like yeah but like there does seem to be some sort of inside track that that we don't have out here I think it's um a sort of self-managing one I don't think it's like there's no organization that's necessarily

looking after I mean there's there's sort of screen skills there's a few organizations organizations that give, like, young filmmakers a chance to get on set. I think that's super important, like filmmakers that aren't from backgrounds where, like, their family or filmmakers, like, people that are want to tell stories, but don't know that that can be a career for them. So that there are organizations in the UK that do that, which is wicked. But I think mainly it's like there is a, there certainly was a few years ago. I'm sure that still is now.

I'm just not in the circle as much. But there was a real, there's a real network of people that just want to make stuff. And I think obviously that there's less strict union, sort of like, you know, strengthen the UK. So, so you can come on and load on a music video and get like 50 pounds as you'll pay that day. And like, that's crowd. It is an awful, like, position to be in, but it gets you on set and it gets you a credit. And then you've met through that also doing like stuff that actually pays like 200 quid a day. and then you gradually sort of like it gets you to meet people so if you are someone that is you know

got a good work ethic you're smart you want to do well and you're you know dedicated you get noticed by people because you can at least get on set a little bit easier in that in that system it doesn't mean a lot of people are working for not very much money which is um below ideal but it does give you the first step and you guys have free healthcare and we have free health care Hopefully, we will have it for as long as possible. Yeah. Because I've been saying that for a minute when people have been talking about like, oh, I've got production back here.

And I'm like, it's a, it's a countrywide problem. So it's not something the film can tackle. But like, if we could, if we could get that system, that would that would remove so many issues that filmmakers in the US are having. Where, you know, people are losing union days. You know, they get kicked out of the union because they haven't worked enough. And now they don't have health. care they don't have a pension they don't have yeah yeah and it's just like we could solve this but

it would have to be a countrywide issue yeah that's a little larger than what we can just do on this podcast but you're right it gives people a foundation of safety and i don't think there's any thing there's any shame in that i think you should you know just be able to like know that if you fall ill you're going to be okay um ultimately so yeah anyway that's a different podcast but yeah you're right those sort of things creating a foundational sort of safe net for people means that they then can excel in other ways because the risks aren't as great if they fail they can still they'll still be alive and that's always nice yeah well and failure's part of it right like to assume yeah you've got to fail oh my god yeah like i've literally got so many horror stories racking through my brain of the ways i failed in the last like 10 years but like every single one of them i probably learned something from um even if i didn't it just like thickens your skin thickens your resilience um you know and yeah well and also it's the the times i've failed there's been a couple that were maybe a little unfortunate but uh it's better it's better to fail on crappy little music videos or whatever

because they don't necessarily matter like if you fail on adolescence because it's your second big oh no yeah yeah you're never working again yeah yeah completely you you know those are the the training grounds for your you to that's where you can fuck up and it's okay like i remember once i fell between uh like a maintenance pit of two train tracks um on a short film with a camera and i managed to launch the camera onto the side i got it to safety and like smacked my shin and my arm and way down um and got told off by the crew and all that and it was great fun but um but like those things that was what i was like a loader and stuff um and those things are just like you think that you're like well now i know that when i'm carrying the camera

got to be a bit more careful i remember at one time i literally a lens fell out the front of the camera because my hands were too cold and i didn't lock the pl mount like when i was that i was a loader i shouldn't have been doing the lens change because but the the focus pot had gone to the toilet it was all like you know um but then you learn those things you learn like actually regardless of if you're being rushed by someone, you should, you know, you can take the time you need to get something done because it's more important that you do it safely. And like, there's all these little micro lessons that you learn by doing something massively embarrassing on a night shoot in the middle of nowhere. Yeah. I think the phrase that I always have to like remind myself,

because, you know, you'll have an AD over your shoulder or whatever, but slow is smooth, smooth as fast. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And like there's so many things like that. People don't tell you until you do something too fast. Yeah. But we, You had mentioned Boiling Point. There's three versions of that, right? There's like a short, a film and a TV show. Yeah, we made a little, like a mini little brand empire. Accidentally.

But we did the short film, like, you know, kind of, that was one of the first short films I did with Phil. We just, we just, he had a script for a kitchen drama because he used to, he worked in the kitchen. And it's like, but after he was acting, when he was younger, he sort of became a chef for 20 or years. and so we had this thing that was like yeah it was all real time and then I was just like and I looked back it's one of those like sliding door moments where you could never know like where something will take your suggestion I was like well you know like we started thinking about how we'd film it and I was like well the thing is he goes from there to there so why don't we just like move across to the camera and I'm like you know what we're like three or four minutes in and it's

all working really well as a one shot we just keep going and it was like a 17 minute one shot the short film and it was just through sort of like observing a script that was like felt like it fit like that and then just having a go at it and suddenly we made a one short short film and he was really we were we really fortunate that he was friends with Stephen Graham from when they were both in band of brothers together so you know that's just like connections that you're just like so lucky that that was possible and and he was in it so we had a face for the for the for the film potentially and then we got funding for a film with him in it the promise of him being in it when it's schedule allowed and yeah and it sort of kept going and i was like i remember when we found out that we'd got funding for um for a feature film version of the short film um i was like oh that's cool but i'm guessing we won't do it like as a one shot and we'll just do like a normal thing and phil was like no what what would you mean that's the whole that's the whole point it worked so well let's keep going i was like oh god okay what have i signed up

for um little did i know it would be the you know the sort of thing that made made it possible for me to do this is my job really um because that was like like i was not a dp when i shot that like not really like i didn't well you know you're a dp at any point if you want to be but like you're like i didn't know so much like i really just was trying to do it by steel i was just like this feels right you know i had to lean on my gaffer a lot lot. I had to lean on the grips a lot just to help me through working it out, you know, working out how to make it look good. I think I sort of knew how the camera needed to move, sort of I feel very blessed that that comes to me quite naturally and I like working out

that puzzle. Through sort of empathy with the characters or dissecting the story, whatever it is. But yeah, there was so much to learn on that job and sins that I live back at it now and I'm like oh that's nice that was a that was a good attempt of a one shot but like we we again we just like a few things lined up people enjoyed it still that's and got lucky there like um yeah obviously you work hard as well but it's still you need um luck and hard work for it to all happen at the rate it has happened i think yeah you know with with adolescence being obviously a larger production and you can control i do want to get into like lighting and stuff in the second but go but boiling point at least the short i believe was in like a real restaurant right um yeah

the well the short film was in like a catering college oh and then movie and then the feature film was in a real restaurant yeah the like barely closed for us because they were a real restaurant right we only closed them for two nights they were um they were basically rehearsing like in the day before they had their um you think so we should uh shift yeah so what what lessons did you like I want to know like what were the cross lessons like what did you learn on boiling point that helped adolescence and what did you learn on adolescence that would have made boiling point maybe not yeah but you know no no no like completely um gosh so one positive lesson was that I learned that there was a way of this

working like the one shot genre working in a way that where where I where I didn't maybe like one shot so I'd watch before I felt like they were too I was too aware of the presence of the camera and I felt like that was through lack of motivation like lack of always giving the camera

a reason to turn like a visual reason in the shot and whether that's character motivation or an object moving but like something that always like pulled the camera to the next place and I and then that's how we that was a strategy

for boarding point and it worked really well because of that it felt like even though there was still like a camera operator like it was like you know the footsteps of the camera operator and it's still like sort of bouncing around a little bit um it still felt closely tied to the characters enough that uh yeah you you you you forget that there's filmmaking happening I think that was a bit that I wanted to get rid of from thing other things I've seen I wanted to just feel like I was immersed in it um So the next level up from that was actually that was it being on a gimbal,

which is why we did those are testing of gimbals because then you really don't feel the operator's presence. You just feel like the camera is floating and it's sort of omnipotent and it's inevitable. And that was the thing of like, can we get adolescence to that place? Or can we get the next project rather to that place? Because I felt like Bolling point was a really good test bed, but I felt like there was so much that I wanted to try that would elevate. this genre like in my head anyway um so yeah camera movement was quite a big thing about like

what we learned from from point um the sense of like how to plan a one shot was you know was quite good so when we came onto adolescence we had already planned and rehearsed a one shot feature before so we sort of knew how to schedule even something like how to schedule like what we were shooting like they were asking for from very very uh early on in the sort of rep of adolescents that walk the production company were like how do we budget and schedule this and I was like oh well in that case that's a massive camera budget

please no yeah but um you know that they were very honest and I was very honest back and you just had to I was like I think for based off of how we did boiling point this is how a schedule might work you know like three weeks per episode and we'll sort of do two weeks of rehearsals and obviously I probably went like we'll have a like five weeks per episode no I don't know I think they were like this is sort of what we're looking at and I was like yes that'll work or that won't work and sort of it worked it all out together um but there was yeah just in terms of how you organize and how I plan it as a DP like how

I you know I I'm very much a sort of visual learner I guess so like for me I have this I when I do a show list I really struggle for it to be like a written list um I'm I'm much prefer if it's like a sort of a diagram of the scene essentially like a floor plan so i use shot designer the after like i'm sure most people know now is like you know it's super useful for that you got characters you got cameras you can move them around and like basically i designed boiling point on that so i knew that that's how i wanted to design adolescence was like from above like i wanted and see this route take place um because also knew how helpful that was for other departments you know you've got like, ADs can look at it and understand where to dress in extras and where to,

you know, like hide, where to do all sorts of stuff. Sound team, it was really useful. For the cast, it was super useful. I could just show them. I could be like, you know, here's this classroom that is in this episode. And you're here. The cameras are going to come in. It's going to look that way, as you can see.

And then it's going to go that way. And then they're like, oh, yeah, sweet. Okay. So if I do this, it'll look over the camera. I'm like, yeah, sweet. So like everyone gets on the same page a lot quicker when they can see it like that, I think. It's sort of like a universal language as opposed to being like some medium close up that like develops into like bananas around the corner into like a like a high angle close up like wide. You're like, right, well, cool.

I don't know what that means. So like certainly most people don't know what I mean. So yeah, it's a that was that was stuff we pulled over from point in point. I'm trying to think what else. I think really that was, you know, it was where we wanted to take the visual language and it was where we. and it was sort of like out to oh and I guess lighting which probably gets along to lighting quite nicely

but lighting was like you know that was certainly for me boarding point the lighting was actually I was going to say it was more of a challenge but weirdly because because lighting is the thing that I've been catching up on like I feel like I'm there now which is lovely but like

for years I was a camera boy and I you know have to learn the lighting craft more like that was the way around than my learning was um so audio point was actually weirdly quite good for me because it wasn't about like the like a massive lamp on a massive machine through loads of different diffusions and gels and this and that or like you know it wasn't like about knowing all the technicals with lighting and you know like I had DMX this to that and like doing all this sort of stuff it was more about here the box of light bulbs because that's all we can afford and we're in a restaurant and there's loads of lighting fixtures. We're going to move them so that they're over the tables or slightly behind the tables if we want them back clear.

They're on manual dimmers. And my poor Gaffer was there like dimming them up and down during boiling point to try and get the levels right throughout. And so we sort of vignetted the scene. We lift up the table that we came up to and we dropped the others back and all that sort of stuff. And it was very much more like sort of me visualizing lighting just from a very basic standpoint, which actually was really nice.

And it is the way to do it. for a one shot because because you can't overcomplicate. If you overcomplicate, you're going to have a lighting shot and you're going to have a shadow that you've created. And you're sort of,

you end up chasing your own tail. You know, you sort of overlight something very quickly. So you have to work with what's there or create what's there, which is what we did in adolescence. We were able to build two sets. The children's sort of secure unit,

which is episode three and the police station, which is episode one. Both of those were built in the same space. basically same same stage um and uh we were able to design the inbuilt practical lighting because it all has to be envisioned well most of it does um from the ground up so with the with the production designer work out you know how like yeah exactly like knowing the route where we might want fixtures so stuff like there was these like corner fixtures in the medical room um they're like sit into the yeah into the corner between the ceiling and the wall and it was being able to say which

which walls we wanted them on so that so that we knew like as we came in there's one there so you can back by from that side and then we spin around there one over there um all sorts of little moments where you know even the placement of the tech tiles in the ceiling like there's like a giant grid of lighting you know but like office lighting um but all of those were within our control they were all dmx they were all like dimmables so we were doing that all the way through sort of adjusting lighting and the same was we made sure we had it's the rest of the housing that was the same size as about tinies so that it looks like fluorescent tubing but it's not it's hysteria so we're like we've got a complete sort of color control there as well so um yeah it was that everything is i don't know what the methodology

they guess is less is more is very um very much part of it but also just like knowing your key positions like you know this is this is the key frame here. This is another key frame here. Let's make that frame look as good as we can with what we have around us. Um, and then, and then try and work out how we get from this, that without, you know, seeing the boom shadow or seeing, you know, the camera shadow or seeing myself in a mirror or whatever the problem is, it's always the problem. Um, but yeah, like it's, it's and obviously the other episodes where we were outside, it was very much like work with the sun, very like work as the sun and you can't beat the sun.

Especially when you look everywhere. Really hard to beat the sun when you can't like, you know, flag it at all or put a machine over the school or anything. It's very much envision at all times. We didn't have to do too much painting out of like lighting structures. I wanted to ask about that, like how much. Yeah. Because I imagine you give the clip to the editor and they're just like, done. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. But I am an editor with like on the FX. Yeah, there wasn't, there wasn't, um, there was it. There was, there's one thing that we had, um, we had a big old, it was like a manatee, uh, no, it was like some sort of cherry picker. Yeah, but it was a manatee out and by the alleyway and the chase ends up at in the school episode. And, um, that was because that alleyway was like kind of just like not, I didn't have

very much natural shape. There was these two houses the other side and it was always kind of shaded and it ended up being quite flat. So we were like, okay, we'll put a big machine in like the car park behind and we'll back like that scene. And then

I don't know what happened. I think for a couple of rehearsals the generator blew up or didn't blow up and it like, you know, it died and I was like, oh, that's annoying. So we had like some mechanical problems with that lamp. And then

I think we noticed that when the sun completely went away it looked really artificial and it ended up basically it ended up being in I can't remember it was in the take we used that it wouldn't have been because it was the last one but for a couple of takes the the cherry picker there had been a miscommunication the cherry picker was in vision but not on

so the light wasn't on it was just upright just in the back of shot and my gaffer was like I can see my gaffer after I'm so sorry I don't know how that happened I told them to get rid of the lamp they thought I'd turn to kill the lamp so it would have been some unnecessary VFX of just painting out this massive machine and giant green cherry picker

but thankfully we just decided to basically be like it wasn't it wasn't the solution it would have been a big VFX build because it would have kept on seeing it over the top of the houses and it just was it was even that felt like it was too much because it looked great like you know as he came to the alleyway and into that conversation

but it just started to feel weird the way it was falling off against the wall and if the sun came out it was a waste of a light because the sun was always just overpowering it anyway so it was there was loads of scenarios that we had like you know like 5Ks and 12Ks playing through windows in the school to keep like a consistent level in the interiors um what we would do is if it was really overcast we'd like put diffusion on all the lamps and then take them all off if the sun was going to come out for that take um so we were sort of like had a plan A and a plan B. But, yeah, most, I don't think there was really very much, um, other than maybe like VFXing out some black wrap or something, like something that was like hanging into shot, you know, occasionally, those sort of things. Um, but nothing. Famously that, no, through the past through.

Oh, yeah. So like, oh, yeah, in terms of painting out lights, there wasn't very much. There was some B effects throughout. There's some, obviously the CGI window, uh, is pretty fun. Um, that was like, uh, that's a good one that, like, people are really, get really like gassed about because they're not expecting it and then it happens they're like whoa how they do that and it's like as simple as you think it is we just got rid of the window and put it back in later um and just chucked the camera through it basically but um there was that

and then uh what's quite fun is in the school episode as well like bless them the kids were brilliant like there was 350 kids that were all on their school holidays and they were all there but honestly they've really struggled to not look at the camera when the camera was nearby and i would be the same if I was there age. I'd be like, oh no, there it is. There they go. But there's so many VFX eyeballs in that episode. And it's creepy. Like, I remember being in the grade and we would be like, and my colourist was like, oh, there's a VFX lay here. Let me just check what that is and you like turn it off. And there's like, like three kids' eyes all just go bang and stick down the lens. And you're like, oh, God, that's like really creepy. That's funny.

yeah um so we're like on and put that that d effect back on yeah yeah there's like you know and they to be fair there wasn't that many in the tape we used it was probably i'd be said 15 which when there's like that many kids you would imagine that they were and they would just be like little glances and just like oh and then they know that they've kind of fucked up and then you know you can see them sort of look a bit bashful afterwards but right yeah well luckily like because i've done that i've gotten rid of links before it's a pretty like i'm not i'm not I'm not saying it's easy, but it's, especially if it's a quick glance. Like, you only need a still frame.

Like, it's not like a very expensive... We move our eyes so quickly. Like, it is literally like one frame, isn't it? Or whatever so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not a terrible BFX to have to do.

But, yeah. And I think, oh, I was definitely in a reflection somewhere. We got painted out, obviously. Couldn't help it. And then, so it was Lee, absolutely, my other operator. So we both got, it was one for one. so it's fine. And there was a couple of boom shadows and stuff,

which was inevitable because of so many points of light. Like, I tried to be a good DP, like we were saying, and get rid of things that were really causing an issue. But, like, when you're looking every direction, there's going to be something. And as much as it heard of their pride, they were somewhat accepted that, like, it would be the case as well. So we're like, it's cool.

As long as it's not across someone's face and it's on a wall, it's all right, can manage it. well and it's like for an hour long one take there has to be some room for error that does yeah that you don't just call the shot you know yeah yeah you're just like oh cut cut cut there's a boom shadow it's like yeah we can we'll make those you know you know by the end of rehearsals like what you're gonna do okay with yeah what was the like handoff protocol for like making sure that they you didn't see like a obviously the gimbalhead's going to know but like how did how do you organize that in such especially when you're snapping on to like um ums or whatever you know like how do you make that not look

obvious just practice the yeah practice was a massive thing it was always like utilize that rehearsal time to keep on practicing stuff and we had loads of camera testing which was really good. That was one thing in the budget chat that I was like, camera testing on this is going to be massive. So please, I'm not just saying this. And so there was things like handovers that were able to test a lot. The hand to hand ones that between me and Lee were essentially like there's a handle on either side of the camera and the top handle. So I would maybe reposition. I know what we'd do is like you'd be holding the camera by the two side handles. You'd pass it across. The other person would try and take it from the top handle to put to sort of take the weight and then slide their hand

into the other grip you know and then and then eventually at some point when it's convenient so take your hand off the top and bring it down to the side and you sort of do that for the for the 4d like all variations of that depending on what the move is and sometimes it's too quick to be able to do that I know when lee takes the camera out the window he just grabbed the top handle that was all he was like just whatever I do is grab the top handle and then I can work the rest out afterwards um but and it's the same when after he's done the running section there, he kind of chucks the camera to me on a tracking vehicle and I take it by the top handle and just pull it in and make sure I've got it. So yeah, but having three points of contact for the camera was like essential and sometimes

you just grab it by the top and the bottom even, you know, there's or I present it to someone like really gently. So I present it to me with like top and bottom and he'd take it by the handles just depending on the scenario. But the like handover on. to say like so there's a couple of times when there's one time where I go on to the tilt a float arm so so the camera is has done the whole of episode one in the hand between me and Lee and then apart from the convoy where it was on a jibb we

we basically I'm I put on the vest in the arm just before the last sort of interview moment where we sort of climax of that episode and there's like a little spigot that's waiting to receive the camera onto the arm and we I like reload the arm down like hold it so that it's like at the right height for the camera

and this is like when this happens when just before they go into that final room when the lawyer's chatting to the two of them so Lee's been doing that section before I preload the arm down he lifts the camera like just exactly where it kind of was we meet in the middle we sort of trying to make contact

these sort of spaceship clumsily doping into the spigot hole and then uh and then and then it just slips in and then we just let gravity do the rest like we've already set the arm sort of tension to the way of the camera so once he gently lets go the camera i take it by then it just doesn't even move and it's just like go straight in um then there's uh the yeah like the the convoy at the start episode we needed a way like for that and the drone we needed a way of connecting the camera to these like rip bits of kit without um without seeing her click right that's the thing like that would really throw the audience as if like you feel like a do like I'm docking to you know it'd be horrible so um the my grip at Gillespie he came up with the idea of using like a magnetic

mount so the um so the camera to get onto the on and off the jib on the tracking vehicle at the start of ep one uh we used it again as well and that's for for um the vans for um the v work when we're on the bottom of the van so essentially it's like metal disk which he got like a custom kind of slightly lighterweight version that was still sort of work for the magnet and we'd like put it up against the magnet mount with the magnet off um on the jib arm in the opening of the episode and then they would turn the magnet on while it when it's already in place basically so there's no like it's not pulling it into that position it's like rested against it and then they turn it on and it would just go and it would just like kind of sit in and lock in and then like a safety that went in

and then I would like change the mode on the side of the camera to FPV I think it was or something and then and then off it would go on its little journey up to street while I went a different way and then it would be the same at the other other end it would just I'd be I'd be pressurizing the camera into the magnet sort of like pushing it up onto the jib so that when the magnet just turned off there's no kind of drop you know and then I'm then and then I would sort of release that attention and off a go into the house. So we did that that method for Eps 1 and 2, sorry, at 1 and 4. And then into for the drone, we use a different system called a shot dock,

which is like this little fun device, which is always tricky to try and explain, but I shall. Essentially the camera wears this little kind of crown of like all finger things, metal kind of rippy claws um the on the bottom of the drone there's like a metal ball and like a sheet that comes over it and essentially the um it has got like a sort of uh cable and like a brake lever basically from a bike and that activates the cable that pulls the sheaf back and it gives you room for this claw to sit around the ball head and then when the sheaf is when when you let go at that lever the sheath comes round over the claw and the whole thing is connected like together. And what's great about that is, again, like the magnet, you can kind of come in at any

angle because it's like 360 sort of angle, sit it over the ball head and then, and then very gently release the lever and then just come around and gently grab onto it. So there's no doc. There's no kind of like moment of up and down movement. And with that system, it's so lightweight that, you know, it's not like the magnet, which would have been really nuts to put on the drone. It was able to as long as you're just under slinging the camera it can just take it you know it's holding it in place um it's even got a little bit of wobble in it um because it's all the spring and stuff there that like actually it's probably quite helpful for the inertia of like flying a camera that isn't designed to be flown around so it was just in all ways it worked really well um so yeah it was

exactly as you thought like the kind of flicking motion is the bit that i was most scared of like if we I did wonder if you just had like a kind of like a, uh, uh, what they called universal mount where it just clicks in, it's like, you might be able to get away with it. It's a, if maybe the Z axis was on and we tried it and it, it worked. We looked at it for the, um, the bonnet mount because at one point, one of the parts on the slider broke, no, the magnet something. Anyway, we needed a backup option or so we tried it. Um, and it could have worked.

It was just, it was like, it all depended on how the Z-axis reacted in that moment. And sometimes it was, it just wasn't happy. Because at that point, you're covering the sensor as well underneath. So it just didn't know what to do at moments. So, and you never want that risk, as we're saying. Yeah. You know, that brings up recently, I think it's like a wilderness idea, like people who camp a lot. But it's like the pace system, the idea of being everything you have should have

primary an alternate contingency and an emergency and I've been thinking about that for filmmaking like you know if I'm going and doing like an interview and it's just me you know like what's my primary camera like alternate you know audio systems like what if this breaks what if there's no back yeah I always have a backup and uh what's funny is emergency on the little spreadsheet I made always is iPhone like yeah just no audio everything else take phone you can know that yeah yeah just stick down yeah just stick that under the fucking yeah yeah exactly yeah but what what was your kind of like pace system for especially if you're going for an hour like do you just abandon the take it like are you only on

primary or did you have like contingency plans for if things went wrong but but the action the actors were still doing well um so we had like cut off points for where when we were doing the shooting week we could we knew that if we if we cut off points but where we were doing the shooting week we could we knew that if we cut the take ended it we would have enough time to reset before um you know kind of so we can squeeze another one in that morning or that afternoon um about just losing a take and that half the day because you know with so many of them we even had like road lock offset already within a certain window and you know there's all sorts of stuff that is outside of just being able to physically film it you know again so um and even like rush our traffic like all sorts of stuff would reflecting you know so we had our

windows in each episode um so it was you know it would be but episode one it was like if we haven't made it to the police station we can go again so if we're in the car and it had it did happen like at one point traffic lights so we had a road closure but there's one junction just before the studio where we can't um we couldn't lock the traffic lights we couldn't hold them we had traffic marshals pressing the pedestrian buttons in order to try and stop the lights the right way. And it did work to an extent, but one time the lights literally were coming up to them and they just went red, like, as we were getting to them, we couldn't go through the red lights since we weren't allowed, didn't have a police convoy. So we were just sat there and poor

Owen's like crying and, you know, not in response to the traffic lights. And, and, you know, they're trying to drag that moment out, but it just was falling. We could all tell. We're like, this is too long now. Like the traffic lights weren't changing back. And, and, you know, so yeah we we called it they stayed in the vehicle we went straight back to ones we tried to get it and we got another one in that morning just by reacting quickly to with our sort of with our yeah system in place because otherwise you just wouldn't have used the episode there was unfortunately there was one moment you know because some stuff happens at the end of an episode and you can't do anything about that but um i basically knocked the gimbal head into a wall

on one literally said after yeah sucks right like it sucks when it's you that does it and I'm like at least in part like the reason I wanted to operate this job is that because I wanted to be the one annoyed at me if I did something wrong you know what I mean like I didn't want to be the deepies out of the monitor and two of my operators like one of them fucks up and you're like oh you know like then you've got to be annoyed at them or or comfort them they'll feel like shit like whatever um but basically yeah like I turned the corner out the medical room and one of the takes it was a really good take as well and um and i was just like that close to like too close to the door at the door frame um and and just as i bent around the edge of the gimbal just

tap the wall and it was enough that the image went boop boop like literally for like a fraction of a second like three frames maybe went went to the left and back again it like corrected itself immediately but that impact was enough um and we you know we were saying there's no cuts in this so there was no you that would have had to have been part of it uh the episode which is impossible to hide because the entire frame is motion blur for like three frames so um yeah so i knew when i did that mike you didn't want to do yeah and it's like and it was horrendous as well it was like it was like 90 degrees and back again very quickly but it was like what the what's happened right um so i like i remember handing the camera over to lee because he had a

section to do after that um and i i went like it's done dude He was like, what? And I was like, it's over. But keep going. And so, and when that happened, like, you know, it's better to keep going and it be more of a like a, just another practice. Even it's painful because the actors are pouring the hearts out.

And you can't tell them that it's not the one. Even if you know something. And that happened a few times where like you know something didn't quite work out. But we just, you've got to the point where you need to keep going to the end. otherwise you're you're not going to get another one anyway so you might as well practice but it always felt like a bit of a liar to sort of like continuing on filming someone knowing this isn't the right you know tape but yeah and i imagine as as the operator like it's hard to kind of lock in when you know it's this isn't the one like it's hard to stay in the moment yeah when you know this is yeah so you're kind of like completely especially in the more physically like demanding sections where you're having to tell yourself to like to like to ignore the fact your body is screaming at you. Like, you're having to tell yourself, like, you've got to do this. You've got to hold the frame. You've got to, you know, make

sure you get this bit perfect. When it's all out the window, you're just like, resting your arms on your chest. You're just like, yeah, whatever. This will do. Were you guys wearing like a back brace or anything? Because how long was the longest take for you? Like 15, 20 minutes? We were doing, I think, the longest section in... Or not take, yeah, but like section where you're holding. Yeah, section, yeah. Like we did a lot of changeovers in episode four quite yeah lots in two in episode one I did a section that was like 15 minutes long which was like which was the medical room section I did like a bunch of stuff around there and that was horrendous like I was in on that close up of Stephen when he's like we kind of it's just him and we're not seeing what's happening over like behind me and it's all emotion on his face and I'm holding the camera like in really close to him.

him and that is like right at the end of that long section and i like my forearms are shating like my like lactic acid building up i'm like sweat running down like into my eye like how how anyone can perform like act in that scenario is just beyond me but um yeah so that was that was the worst bit i would say well no actually episode three was really hard because that was all me but it was on like the tilter arms that helped it was just on my back it was a lot on my back. But yeah, so there was long sections. And Lee, Lee actually in episode four did have quite a long section as well where he did a bunch of running. I said he like ran to chase after Stephen and then back again. I feel like running would be better because at least you're

like your body is built for that versus just in a way, maybe. Still, you know, like yeah, metrics are hard. Yeah, yeah. Like if you're holding anywhere out at arm's length, it's like horrendous, isn't it? So, like, and obviously even just being here, like your, your time just want to be like that. There was moments where, when I was operating some sections in, in, one of the police cells in, in, in, in, oh, in sale, basically, in episode one, and the end bedroom scene in four, where I would be more comfortable getting into, like, a sort of slav squat, like, like, when it's a low level shot, it's like bending down or something. I would just, like, squat down, because I could just, like, sit there, like, a little grimace. with my elbows on my knees holding the camera like that takes the way of my arms for a bit and I can just be in like this little squat position which also is like a different position for your legs to be in it sort of stretches you out it's quite nice so I would like try and find

that position quite often I'm sure people are like again what is he doing but like it was and sometimes you do that and then you go to your knee for a moment and then you get back up off your knees and you carry on and like yeah that but like variety was actually quite appreciated at times when you're operating something like that yeah well What was the, what was the, I usually ask, uh, documentary DPs this, but what was the shoe situation? Shue situation. Oh, wow.

What? Do you have to ask documentary DPs out? Surely they're just wearing like their boots, then? Well, so this is the thing is like, because the doc DDPs tend to just be standing around, walking around, now there's just a lot of handheld for, for dock. Yeah. So they, and I've, I had a, at one point, I had a list. Like everyone had it, obviously, blundstones are popular, but like, I learned the hard way with a big,

a tilt a ring, you know, gimbal, you should not wear blunt snubs because it goes kathunk, kathunk, kathunk, and it'll shit like if you have the like solid. Yeah, like solid boots. You almost impact twice, don't you? Yeah.

I think for most of the time, me and Lee were both in like running shoes, basically. I was in like trail running shoes because they're just like versatile. Those are popular. Yeah. So,

yeah, some nights. I think actually he usually been up being up being in this like, Salomon like GTX six is wherever they are those ones Salaman Solomon one of them but um so yeah it was a mixture of that there was one moment in episode four it was the end of episode four where um I pick up the camera from like up the stairs into the last scene in the bedroom and I had to take my shoes off because the floor was really squeaky with the shoes that bedroom floor was like laminar flooring

like wood um so I just kicked my shoes off and actually it was quite nice again like a bit of a change um there was also we had issued the floor it didn't relate to footwear but the um in that main room in episode three um well it is related to foot footwear because we went away for the weekend after rehearsal week the last rehearsal week came back in um for the first shooting week uh take and someone had like cleaned that floor in the in that main room but they had removed like all dust and so it was like with our shoes in there

me and two boom-arts it was this squeakiest like scrap like it would sound like a badman in the badminton court like it was like it was like you move around it was a squeaking everywhere so we had to like and dust back onto it we had to like make it dirty again in order for the sound to be better

because like we couldn't do that one like you know without wearing shoes it was fairly horrendous and then also at one point the floor was like it was like his slightly lifted like the the sort of floor over the over the um the floor of the studio was slightly lifted so there was like this sort of air gap which was like smacking down location in different places and then also like when there's a moment when jamie throws some hot chocolate um smacks it off the table that hot chocolate was originally like real hot chocolate

and um he like it goes on the floor and then suddenly like we start walking through it as we keep going around the table and we're like sticking to the floor and you can hear it in all the dialogues we're like like it's a horrible sound um so then so then art department or props had to come up with a hot chocolate mixture that was still tasty but it was like not sticky and it was like a protein like thing that they had protein powder that they came up with or something and you mixed that with and some other stuff but yeah

all sorts of weird problems isn't there that you get when you're like doing a weird thing you're like oh who'd have thought it like the

the hot chocolate it's going to be too sticky on the floor like what not something you consider I I saw Netflix had tweeted out

like the take the amount of tapes and I found it hilarious that it was like 16, 13 10

who like what happened on the two oh yeah yeah that's not the total number of takes to be fair that's that's the take we used yeah yeah because I was about to say if you nail it on two do you guys just go all right job done high five

let's go to the pump nice one see next week yeah I wish I wish we had to like we had to use every take we could in case we got something better because we never knew like it could get into posts

and start noticing stuff with the take that you think you like you know actually we need I wish we'd done like a couple of backups when we had like, you know, when we took Thursday, Friday off. So we had to fill the whole week. But, yeah, that second take that we used was the second take of episode one, which apparently performance wise was the best.

I know that for me, annoyingly technically, episode one improved quite a lot after that. But it's knowing, you know, like it's not the first time as a DP, the performance has chosen over, like, you know, the cinematography and often people know what people are going to notice or care about and it's also still done well enough for me so I'm not going to be too bitter about their decision but yeah so that's that is weird looking back to like I feel like certain things improve later on in that week but but apparently the bits that are more important were amazing at the start sometimes the energy decreases in ways as well in the performance when they get

more used to what we're doing. But yeah. It's interesting seeing it's basically the last take of every episode apart from that one. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's an absolute triumph of the show. So I'm like, you got to, I see a, you said you're not 30, but I think the next 30 years might be good for you.

Hopefully you get to do shows with that. Yeah, it would be nice. I was going to say, I hope that, you know, that I have just come off for one that has had loads of cuts. That's lovely. It was actually a strange one to come off the back of adolescence onto like a feature film. And I was like, in my head, I was like,

I've got to think the other way now. I can, I can hide things. I can put like a, I can light someone's face and I can just bring like neg in here. I can put like a lamp just there. Like that's so alien. Yeah. Suddenly.

Like, really nice treat. But also like weird for the first few weeks to be like, okay my shot list is like actually a shot list all right fine um so yeah yeah but no i hope i hope so i hope that you know i just love mating i don't know telling these stories and and just it's just fun it's a really fun job very lucky to do it um i think crafting images is just like a it's a it's a joy so yeah hopefully people like my images for as long as i can hold a camera which might not be very long if i keep on doing one shot Because I very much put my back out on adolescence.

Listen, Deacons is still, as far as I'm aware, still hand-holding some stuff. I think he is. Yeah, yeah, he set the bar high there, so you have to keep going. Yep. Well, thanks for spending the hour with me, man. Absolutely flew by. And like I said, it's a phenomenal show. So you should feel very proud of yourself.

Thank you, dude. It's been a great chat. Really enjoyed it. Frame and Reference is an Albot production, produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so by going to frame and refpod.com and clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated, and as always, thanks for listening.