Frame & Reference Podcast - 205: "The Righteous Gemstones" Cinematographer Paul Daley

Episode Date: August 21, 2025

Today we've got the fantabulous Paul Daley on the program to talk about his work on The Righteous Gemstones!Enjoy!► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠F&R Online ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Support F&R⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Watch on YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Produced by Kenny McMillan► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Hello, and welcome to this episode 205 of Freeman Reference. You're about to drop into a conversation between me, Kenny McMillan, and my guest, Paul D.P. of the righteous gemstones. Enjoy. I mean, there was a period there, but music videos were huge, but yeah. Yeah, like everything, the world turns. Well, and that was a funny thing, too, is, like, music videos, when I was, like, in college and stuff, you would see everyone really, like, making their careers, you know, and you'd be studying, you know, the director's series box set, you know, with, like, Mark Romanack

and Spike Johns and stuff, and you'd be like, oh, okay, I just got to do that. And then by the time you're able to do it, you're like, no, that's the past. We don't, MTV is gone. Yeah. Yeah, no doubt about it. Yeah, you started like gaffing mostly, right? That's right. Electrician.

Yeah. Was that like kind of your goal? Was your goal to work up to being a cinematographer? Did you? Not really. I mean, I love me the gaffer. It's a brilliant job. But I loved it.

It was one of those jobs for you. You had a lot of responsibility, a lot of technical stuff you had to figure out. But they came down to lighting. You had to get through all the technical crap to get to the lighting, but that's where I really learned my craft. Yeah. I figured it all out. Got you some incredible director of photography I worked with.

And I've worked at Ellen Kouris and Eric Kempwood. I've talked to Ellen. She's great. Awesome. That was on Eternal Sunshine, wouldn't it? Well, I've worked with her subsequently, you know. Yeah, I mean, I was the rigging gaff on Eternal Sunshine, and I gaffed commercials and stuff with her.

And we did living in the materials. interior world, you know, the Scorsesee docked together. We did, you know, a week or so on that. Yeah, we did all kinds of stuff. And then Bob Yoneman, I did, like, works with him a lot. Eric Edwards, I worked with him. I've talked to Yelman as well. Yeah, Young's the man. I mean, what a sweetheart. Another super generous guy. So, you know, yeah, I was sort of a 30-year overnight success. Yeah. Yeah. What are those types, like, because obviously, Ellen and Bob are top of the craft. Like, what, what do those type of people teach you when you, are ostensibly, in some cases, probably teaching them.

You know, like this, because the thing that's great about like gaffirs and stuff is they get way more work than DPs. So I assume you pick up a lot more tips and tricks, so to speak, along the way. Yeah. Well, it's, the DPs are the really good ones, a very word that they're just so confident. They know what they're doing. then they often just let the gaffer get on with it. Don't get specific on instruments. Don't get specific on very much. It'll be where we're starting.

You know the scene. You watch the block in, you know, all that, all that, all the obvious stuff. And someone like, Bob, just let you get on with it. He'll come in, look, say, put a double in that, put a single in that, turn that one off. Let's go. You know, that's, that's, you know, you've cracked it. You've done a good job, and they really don't do very much. They can do it.

Obviously, they know what they're doing. you do it they like it you shoot you know it's like that yeah the uh i saw in an interview you talk about how like a director had said that you uh had what was it like better lighting but it wasn't as natural

and that kind of like changed away yeah they changed my life actually that's uh a dp called wakene baka assay he shot that movie uh we own the night he's all kinds of stuff he's really good and i got for him for a decade or more you know we go around the world doing stuff mostly commercials and then that's what happened one day i remember we were in long island in a bathroom the camera was in a um vanity mirror and uh i was standing in and i was talking to him and i'm i'm looking in the mirror he's looking at me in the mirror and he put his eye in the eyepiece

and he looked he put his eye in the eyepiece and he looked i said what's the matter what's the probably and he said um your lighting is better than mine but my lighting is real so bang i know exactly what you're talking about and i turned on a dime i changed everything after that but remember as a cathar your job is to make it perfect it's the dp's job to screw it up to mess it to do whatever he wants to do with it you know what it was she yeah but i i understood What are you saying completely? Yeah, I've spoken to a few DPs who've talked about, like, introducing, you remember who called it, but it was like what they called the fuck it light.

So they'd set everything up and then they would just like turn on like a 2K unmotivate, not unmotivated, but just like aim it at something and like bouncing up. They're like, there you go. That's or another D.P told me like the light should be fighting its way into the scene. Like it shouldn't just be there. I've been thinking about that a lot. like, you know, because especially, you know, like I said, doing doc and stuff, you often just go, all right, you know, six by, soft, pretty, we're done. But that's not realistic, you know, like, but for documentary that really matter. But I think about that a lot now. Like, how do you make it look natural? Like, is it just coming through a window? Does that, is that natural? You know, what, what is that? I'm fanatical about it. Hook on a stage. I'm absolutely fanatical that it shouldn't look like a stage. It's just. on gemstones

something will be two stops too hot back there and the key get we'll be running over there with a net I'm going to leave it, leave it and it should look like something you couldn't control or that's how it should look like wow if I could get a lift up there

and dot the sun that's what I would do that's what it's supposed to look like it's supposed to look like you couldn't control that light that's half a stop too dark if you could do anything you bring this down or something no no it's

and the amalgamation of that is something that looks real if you're not careful when you go on a stage everything's within a range so what you've got an average so when you have average light and you've got an average looking scene do you know what I mean it doesn't matter what

the design has done you've just given it a blob I can't stand that either like you know lights without intention just blobs of light it's not for me that's the LED revolution you know everything is just the LED soft look it's not for me

it's just not really what I like it's and you say it politely it's lights for people who don't know how to light yeah you know there's you just reminded me

of something Ellen told me that also has stuck with me was we were talking about like diffusion both lens and light and she had mentioned how she didn't like the pro mist

because it was fuzzy and then she was like yeah that's also I can't remember which diffusion she mentioned but she was like maybe it was like silks how it's just

there's no intention to it It just becomes a thing. And I was like, that's interesting because before that time, this would have been like five years ago. But before that time, I was like, I just assumed bigger and softer was better. And then the more and more I talk to people, they're like, no. Interesting, right? Because I'm going to completely contradict myself. If you have a beautiful woman of a certain age, right, is what it has to be.

You've got to be smart about this. You can't go into the job with these rules and ideas. It's like, I'm a hard light guy. And then Joan Collins walks out. So, Guy, you'll be a hard light guy for one day because then you're going to get fired. It's not how it works. There are horses for courses, right? But as a rule, as Ellen said, the light should have intention.

It's got to come from somewhere. It's got to go somewhere. The light should resolve, you know, just like a camera move. It should resolve. We should start and finish, do something. Yeah, I believe that. Yeah, because when you talk about like, like, you know, being a couple stops too hot or whatever, has that approach changed for you going from film to digital? Because obviously digital, in many cases you have a bit more latitude, a little more dynamic range to work with.

Like, if these things are blowing out, how do you stop it from looking, going from looking natural to looking like an accident? Well, the thing with film, it was hard to make. mess it up. I mean, if I preferred film because you would have, your happy accidents would be somewhat attractive. The only thing you couldn't do with film, if it was black and you tried to drive, pull it up in the Da Vinci or whatever we're using, it would just go brown. There was just nothing there. So black is black. Whereas with the digital, there is a little bit of something. But overexposed highlights in film just resolved beautifully. It just looks great. It's hard to, this, you know, like Fahrenheit 4-51 kind of thing.

Yeah, imagine doing that one digital. What that looked like? Right. Could you do it? Maybe you could. I don't know. I suppose they did. They did remake it with Michael B. Jordan a couple years ago.

Oh, did they? Yeah, yeah. I didn't. I don't remember if I saw it. I think I did. So no one did. So I'm right. Yeah, exactly.

That's probably, you know, I'm going to get hate my own now or something. No, I don't think it's performed as well as people expected. But you get my point, though, right? I mean, it's like that you won't beat 35 millimeter as an aesthetic. There's just a, there's a commercial issue. It's expensive. Yeah, that's it. You can't argue with the commercial viability of bits and bites.

You just, you know, you can make money with it. Producers can make. Well, and in that sort of following that train of thought, is there a supposed world in which you're in a environment that's not necessarily as easily controlled and you, let's say you have the budget shoot film instead to kind of glue everything together and make

kind of trick the audience into thinking these uncontroll elements are intentional. I don't think it's ever, and these days I mean, the cameras are so good. I'm not sure what environment that would be that you just couldn't do anything with it.

A vault, you know, I don't know. Right. No, no, knows the answer to that. Yeah, because I know a lot of younger filmmakers especially are often pushing, like really young, you know, like high school college kids seem to be returning back to like cam quarters. They think that's like a really cool look. I did a lot. I'd want, I'd want Sundance with a camcorder. I think I start on a barricam and finished on a Sony, whatever it was, a documentary. Yeah, I'm really great, really good,

good looking. Yeah, I mean, like a modern one or like a DVX 100 or something like that. It was modern at the time, but it was tape. It wasn't cards. I can't remember what it was called. One of them was a barricam, and the Sony, I just can't remember. But it was HD, and at the time, you couldn't edit HD. So what they would have to do is wait for the technology to catch up. They would transfer it to beta, whatever it was at the time, do their rough cut on beta,

and then wait to transfer it. You know, they saw what they did. and then when they had a cut, that's what they would do with the HD. Do you see what I mean? Yeah, it's like, there's so expensive and stuff. Yeah, the, do you feel like the camera technology advancing

has been better or the light, better in the sense of, like, more helpful or the lighting technology? Because I know you just have, like, LED tends to be a little flop. I mean, I'm not knocking the LED there. You don't get me wrong. Oh, no, it's phenomenal, but it's phenomenal.

It's phenomenal. It's phenomenal. What it does, is absolutely incredible. but remember it's got to work in tandem it's not the be all and the end all you know it's like everything everything is still relevant like I still use one of my favorite key light is a baby soft

which is like in Maryland Monroe with baby soft something that light is 80 years old I suggest an FCM bulbs that long cove light bounces put a I put a nestor on it after Nestor Alamendra so he invented it nestor on it stuff some Hampshire frost on it and put it right over the camera

and it's like key to hear people with it and it's ancient, ancient technology and the Gaff from the last movie I was on in LA said well why don't you use an LED and I said you show me the LED that does this and I will and it wasn't being a smart ass right

there isn't one I actually have heard a lot of DPs basically stick to traditional tungsten features for key lights and then everything else can get LED. But obviously the spectral output on it, you know, it's way better. You catch more of the... It's pretty. You know, what's better? It's a long piece of tungsten that's glowing to the point where it's about to melt. I mean, it's a visceral thing that's happening. It's like a candle

and it's without being a candle. You know, it's at least it's somewhat natural. I mean, I remember when people push back against HMI. And I go, what is this thing? Look at it. A spikey. It's green, it's got all this, it's got all that. But now, you know, HMI is almost passe. You know, it's, yeah. So as far as whether the camera or the lighting advancement is better, any advancement is better. Yeah. I mean, that's how you use it.

You've got to know how to light it. I'm seeing a lot of people want to go back to. Well, and I've talked about this before. Like, people are complaining about things being too dark. And a lot of times it can be the TV that's doing it, not necessarily the cinematography. But, you know, but I am seeing a lot of discussion about people wanting to go back to just that, like, Terminator 2, HMI floating in the middle of nowhere and just backlighting the whole street. Yeah, you let me be honest. It's a great look.

If we're starting to talk about how bright your TV is, you've got a major problem. Honest to God. it's like when you're sitting in dailies and I experienced this once as a gaffer we sat there projected daly's and there was a problem you were soft and the DP was running up to the projection projectionist and he's messing with this you've got a problem dude we have a problem there's nothing to do with the projector it's nothing to do with the television it's poorly lit or it's not lit or like some of the stuff I've seen it's like they're hoping for a full moon go I don't know 6,500 ASA F wide open to see what happens it's just a

lob what is that what have you done i don't know makes no sense to me i mean i would never do it well i would assume a lot of it has to do with like when you get in the have you know what we're saying about like digitally you can producers love it like when you have a you know a venice or something that can shoot 12 000 800 or whatever it's 6400 uh you're some people's initial thought is like well we don't this is being rude but like we don't have to light it we can see it and that's natural quote unquote you know um not to say that people are lazy but i think that you know you've always got someone telling you to you know schedules are shorter and whatever whatever and you got like pick your battles i suppose what battle is that you lost already yeah it says you know

you got to 6500 and see what happens say you get someone else i'm not the guy for you yeah that? What was it even mean? Do you know? It's horroring. It's just that you've seen, we will watch the same shows and you've seen like battle scenes and there's like somewhere in there as a man advancing with a sword, you'd practically have to subtype it.

You blew it. It's what 120 foot lifts are for. And it's what balloons are for. That's what, there's a thousand, a million years of technology that we can use as a saturation. There's a hundred years technology. We can light a battle. You don't need to

do that. Yeah. I mean, in the, um, jumping ahead a little bit, but in the, uh, civil war battle scene, the night scenes, I suppose, um, I, those looked great. I was, I was sitting there going, like, I like the little silvery blue highlight. I like the, I very much enjoyed that, that, that look that you were able to pull off. Yeah, thanks very much. That was, no, no, no, no camera trickery there. I, maybe 1280. I say maybe. I don't think so, but I think it was 800. Really. um picked our color got lucky with a full moon it matched perfectly that's a real full moon we didn't put that in and um it was the 120 foot lifts with two lrx 18 ks in them four cornered it and uh

always backlit lights inside the tents fire and uh hidden instruments actually baby softs behind coffins and whatnot for bradley cooper to catch catch light but i'm not afraid of the dark You know, you can drop, he can drift in, he can drift out. Yeah, that's how we did it. Old fashioned, very old fashioned and very fast. I mean, we did that, that episode was nine days. And that night was a split. It wasn't a full night.

Do you find that shooting some, you know, like a period piece where ostensibly, it's, you know, you're just outside. Like, is that easier than shooting a modern, film work like in terms of the the aesthetic of it does that become easier or harder when you have to match like a period because in my head there's no electricity you know so it's like do are you able to just kind of lean on there's no electricity in the in the story are you able to lean on naturalism i suppose or just shooting it as is or or where am i going with this is it is it harder to shoot like a period piece over a more modern piece.

That's a really good question, actually. Give yourself some credit. That's a really good question. Thank you. I want to think about it. No, I don't think it's harder. You light it like there isn't electricity. Everything has to be motivated.

It's very important. Everything's motivated. A light touch is very important because back in the day, there weren't single source lights unless there were windows. It was multiple sources, candles. fires, that type of thing. So you must remain disciplined and make sure that just out of shot, there isn't an instrument, giving them a gentle rim.

It's because that's clear. That's what that is. You're just got to be careful. Otherwise, you can drift quickly out of the world you're trying to build into a studio-esque feel, which I think would be unfortunate, I think. I mean, people do things differently, you know, but I think that would have been a shame to do that. Yeah. well and i just realized as you were talking to like a nice little thing about to your point about

like candles in tents or whatever technically a big muslin tent for the light sources and there's a pretty good little soft source that you can run through yeah well i tell you though those those tents were very very difficult to work with oh really we were the production design was incredible but anyway you slice it those are but if you're lucky they're beige if you're unlucky they're just white to your moon outside bright sun you're sitting in a like one of those so eBay product boxes you know it's boom just blazing so that all has to be controlled and at night you've got the same problem but opposite it's whatever light source you put in there it just lights up like a Christmas tree so you really have to be um disciplined about it be very very careful

where the light goes and what it's doing so otherwise it it It just gets very even, very quickly, which you don't want. Well, I don't want. What was the generalized approach? Because obviously the main show takes place all modern. Yeah. And I know that on the main show, you know, like each character is kind of presented in a specific way and all this, but how did you, what were the discussions around?

All right, we're going to make a period, you know, flashback sort of sequence almost. how far away do you drift from the look of the normal show and how what what do you do to keep it sort of in line with the regular look there was no mandate to do that there was never it wasn't even in discussion there should be some sort of tie into episode two through nine this is completely standalone so there were no restrictions whatsoever on the look the production design, the colors, nothing. You do whatever we wanted, and we did. It wasn't supposed to, it was supposed to, you were supposed to watch that episode,

and if you didn't watch the rest of it, it wouldn't matter. That episode was a mini-feature film. Yeah. And I read that you were using different lenses for day and night. Yeah, I did, actually. I mean, it's a bit of an exaggeration, to be honest. I really basically stuck with those Ice Supremes. I really like.

I've got the Likers and the Likers, you know, arguably the best lenses in the world. I mean, they're gorgeous and stuff, but, man, these Supremes, it's just something about them. It's, you know, I could get all flower with my language and make, make crap up to sound intelligent. But there would be things, the way the boca works, you know, the soft focus, there'd be horizontal, there'd be shapes in the background. They would go soft, but maintain the shapes. It doesn't make sense. Yep. It wouldn't just turn into like a blobby mess.

It wouldn't just, I could tell even 150 yards away at a 2.8, what that person's doing back there. They're very soft, but there's some sort of sense of resolution, if that makes sense. They just grew and grew and grew and grow on me. And the likers, I felt sure. would be the lenses for the night stuff in the tents because they're so warm and so rich and stuff and I did do some stuff with them

but I'd have to ask the first they see Damon about it. I'm pretty sure we just kept going back to the Supremes. Yeah well you're right about the Boca change especially a lot of the newer lenses coming out are easy to shoot wide open

you know they maintain sharpness but you're right like the background it's kind of the funny thing of like when we were had digital before like good digital you know let's say the D21 or red one or whatever you know you were trying to reach this quality level I feel like the same thing has happened with lenses where it was like oh bocas can get very like crisp and kind of too chattery and then now we have these things that just turned the background into a smeary painting which is pretty in some cases you know but I think we're starting to lose the you know production designer designer did a whole bunch of bunch of work. It's kind of sad to just like wash it away, you know. Well, that's it. I just want to do it. So an episode, all of the Jamstown's episode is Richard Wright is arguably the top five production designer in the country, right? Bloch's amazing. We rarely she closed, open more than sort of a two, eight and a half four. We just want to see what's back there. And to your point about lenses, longer lenses, it's, you know, whatever.

where the money is is in the wider lenses. So wider lenses that don't make your face like a balloon. So you put a 29 on. And so you could still shoot an attractive woman on a 29 on an expensive lens. Do you know what I mean? You put a Schneider up 29.

But she's going to look like, umpty-dumpty. She has to do it doesn't work. That's the money on the wider ends of your lenses from 50 down to 16. That's where you see where the technology is in the glass. Yeah. Were you ever on, this is a, maybe it wasn't you, but were you ever on the cinematography.net website forums? No. No. Because there was, when I was doing some research, there was a guy named Paul Daly that was asking about mixing lenses. And I was like, oh, maybe it was the same one. God was me. How many Paul Daly's going to be? Yeah. They're going to only be one or two. Yeah, they were asking about shooting like different mixing lenses for 16 mil. someone someone from the joker team was like here's all the lenses we use

and it was like everything under the sun and I was like that's interesting I didn't know that about that oh oh they're maybe there are don't know what did he say was intelligent shall I just claim it yeah it was you know what the question was asked and then it was answered and then no follow-up so it's like that's classic forum behavior you know no no discussion it's probably complete gibberish and those people are like feeling sorry for me like oh my god what did he just say yeah and it well and it was a relatively recent post i was like i don't think this is a question from someone who's been working recently um but uh i did want to go back to the idea of like i had heard

that you on the sort of mammal series of gemstone that um each maybe not each character but certainly some characters are treated differently when they're on screen and i was wondering if you could elaborate, like, what that means. I know with John Goodman's character, there's a lot of, like, you know, shooting up at him and stuff like that. But, and maybe, like, filming them in the way that they idealized themselves and not necessarily objectively. And I was wondering if you could, yeah, again, like, elaborate how you shoot each character,

if that's the case, or who specifically gets a different look than the other ones. There isn't a grand scheme behind it, but you touched on it. John Goodman, we always make him heroic. You know, the Russian propaganda posters. You just make him look like the patriot that he is. We're always kind to the ladies. Always, it says the camera goes where it looks best, especially obvious reasons.

You just put the camera where it's flattering. For people like BJ, he had last season, his, character took such a dark turn he got horribly beaten up I mean it really got it got dark so we went in that direction with it we lit it

that way and there was a particular scene I think it was episode 7 I can't remember but Edie Patterson was sitting alone at an opulent dinner table waiting for BJ she hasn't where he is and he's just got his ass

kicked by her took old boyfriend thing you know and he comes in and he's battered and she's at the dinner table when she runs over to him and he just gives her the hand and starts walking up the stairs and we lit it very noir with shadows on the stairs and up up up you went and she just burst into tears and sort of fell on the ground and it was about as far from comedy as you could get you did you know what I mean it was I'm sort of deviating here, but what I did, I got it lit up, and I just went over to Edie and said, you know, Edie, no comedy in this light and just let me know, change the

direction you're taking this. This is, you say, hey, thanks for that. And I did the same for BJ. So, listen, we've gone really dark with this. So whatever you do, it's going to make sense. He's like, hey, thanks a lot. And that's the direction they took it. It was cool.

And I found, actually, with even season two when I shot a couple of episodes, it was kidnappings and stuff, I found when I lit it dark, the actors went dark. Do you know what I mean? It started to get menacing, which was, I thought, really cool. Yeah. Yeah. It works. Well, that's the same idea with like why, I believe, actors prefer, you know, a set or, like, location over obviously green screen, but even probably LED walls, just because, you know, they're doing make-believes and it's easier to make-believe if it's real, you know, something that they can physically interact with in the same thing of lighting. It has to be that way.

I can't speak for them, but yeah, I mean, gemstones, we only have two or three sets as cover sets. Everything is location. Yeah. Yeah. So we're in magnificent mansions. That incredible building where all the portraits are on the wall where the knights, whatever they call themselves. You remember the guys who've got the crazy capes on, the Cape Bristol Club, and that's an actual location in downtown Charleston.

Oh, really? Pillars, spiral staircases, all kinds of stuff. I mean, it's incredible. It's a real opportunity to get in there and do stuff. Well, and I imagine, just based on what you're saying earlier, that location's, probably give you maybe not an easier job in various ways,

but it's easier to be inspired by where the light should come from, what it should look like and stuff when it's all presented to you versus having to make it up from scratch on a built set. Yes, yeah, very astute of you. I mean, when I walk into locations,

I look at it right as it is. I mean, I presume an architect designed this place with something in mind. I can't imagine. He just plonked it north-south without thinking about it. So I look at where the windows are.

I go there. Sometimes it's handy. I go on a director scout. Then when they pick the location, I go on a location scout, take pictures, see how it looks. I'm what's wrong with this? Let's make it shootable. I'll do that a lot. Yeah.

Has the look changed throughout the seasons? Or have you kind of, obviously, like we said, it varies across individual seasons. But has there been like maybe advancements in technology or just ideas or things that have come to you over the past handful of years that have made you go like, let's do this. Yeah. Yeah. The look evolved, I think. I mean, you're probably a better judge of it than me.

I mean, I think it's clearly different from season one to season four. Right. I spoke to Jody Hill about it because Jody directs the lion's share of the episodes. And I said, look, I'd really like to take it in this direction. And I reference to the Iqris file. I talk about that movie a lot. just the way it's shot, the way things are covered, the way white shots are handled, the way the night stuff is handled.

I said, this is what I want to do. He said, okay, but if I don't like it, you shipped it right back. I said, yeah, no problem. And I just never heard another thing about it. So I take that as, you know, don't ask too many questions, right? You only get a no if you ask a question, so just don't ask. What was it about the Ipcris file that stood out to you? Obviously, like Jody Wales for episode one came up.

But like there's hundreds of films you could probably pick. What was it about that one that stood out as like, oh, that's the move? It's the way the bloke shot Otto Heller is in Amos. He did Alfie as well, which is another masterpiece, you know. He establishes his scenes the traditional way, right? He doesn't. He's got the camera on the floor. And it's a pain in the ass, because where's he put in his lights and stuff?

He doesn't worry about it. And it's just, I'm like, wow, what an interesting opening shot. And it's static as opposed to a moving master, you know, who does that? And then when he comes in for his coverage, it'll be a man at a desk and a man standing. It'll be the man at the desk looking at the man standing. And rather than the camera traditionally over the shoulder looking down, sort of a, you know, over the shoulder slash POV thing, it's a body bite. So the man, the eye line is up here. But I know when we are.

I have to see what's going on. I have confidence. He adds confidence. The audience knows what's going on. It's that kind of thing. And the coverage from the other side will be over the shoulder and him looking down. So the coverage doesn't match because, you know, people get forensic about it. Oh, what did we shoot this on?

Well, I said, that was a 50. Make sure this is a 50. He just threw that out the window. So I did too. Were there other films just in your career that kind of, inspired you to tackle because obviously everyone is drawn to film or whatever their art form is

by way of their favorite art like what were your kind of favorite films coming up that that made you go like ooh that type of I guess especially with gaffing like that light that's the light that's a little bit of me there well there's one I mean it was brilliant

cinematographers also but Gordon Willis of course it starts and ends with him in my opinion it's anything brought by Danny Rose It's a comedy. It's amazing. Beautiful. Godfather, you know, where you're going. You know, it's just endless to Parallax View.

Just, and I've referenced a Parallax View on Gemstone. It's Richard Wright, production designer. He was building these, the sets where Baby Billy pitches his insane ideas. You know, kids sit on those thrones with those enormous freezes behind them. You know, Richard's like, what do you got in mind? I said, how about the congressional panels? seen in the parallax view, which I don't know if you've seen that movie, but these faith politicians sit there and it's like the Warren Commission. It's supposed to be the Warren Commission. It's like,

you know, the committee finds there is no further need to investigate, blah, right, right, these like drone guys and it's just like heavily top lit. It's awesome. First to Richard, let's do the Parallax View. It's like, okay. So that's what it is. So I just shamelessly lifted Gordon Willis. You know, there's across all these conversations, there's always, like Gordon will pop up, Deacons will pop up, obviously for a lot of us, it's like, well, I watched you know, Spielberg, you know, Janice, whoever, have you seen any more modern films that you're like this? I think this guy might be, guy or girl might be, you know, the next one that we'll be referencing for a while. That's a really good question. That's a really good question.

I'm going to think about that. What do they see recently? You know, I saw, I'm a little behind. It's actually a television show. It's called Pennyworth. English television show, and it's about Batman's Butler, Alfred. It's a ridiculous life, and it's beautiful. I don't know who shot it, but it's a real homage to Michael Kane stuff. Yeah. For instance, there was a shot, a very cross-file shot, actually,

and there was a road sign, a street sign, and it's a Micklewhite Way. Because Michael Kane's name is Morris Micklewhite. I was watching it. And the lead actor, I don't know, is affecting a real Michael Kane style. And it's, they've done it. They've shot it very Otto Heller. And I just started it a couple of months ago. I think my dad recommended it.

It's watch it. Anybody who's sort of interested in what we're talking about. You should watch it. It's very impressive. You know, it's funny that, yeah, I just wrote it down. I got nothing to do today. I'll probably just watch it now. but the it's funny how these weird little side shoot shows of like minor characters are just

rife for great storytelling and or obviously recently brilliant show right and it's like what we need to be because I've always said like we need to stop remaking good movies and start remaking movies that were maybe had a good idea but missed the mark you're so right that's a brilliant that's a very astute observation so why would you touch Well, no one's done in the cable, Mrs. Miller, but why would you touch, like, Bullet again? I mean, I'm like, what? What? Because you're only, like, the chances of you doing it better are so slim.

And it's like, especially if it's, you know, because obviously producers or studios or whoever they are, they see there was money there in success. They're like, well, let's do it again. It's like, that's not how that works. You're only going to disappoint people. When I do get this theory, I do. The Italian job, have you seen the original Italian job? Yeah. Isn't that more Michael Kane? Of course.

Yeah, I think I have a Michael Kane affectation obviously, but I actually worked with him. It was really cool. Oh, nice. Yeah, we went to a party together. It was great. He's a really good bloke, actually. Really? But that movie, it's untouchable.

The mini-cooks start racing up and downstairs, going over rooftops, all this crazy stuff. And the Mark Wahlberg won't. It's like, yeah, whatever. It's perfectly acceptable. It's bad even. Maybe it's okay. Now, we're near, the original. Yeah, there's a few films, like, did you ever see Dread? I did.

Like, that was one where I was like, okay, so you didn't really remake it. You just took the character and made a different thing. That I'm cool with, because I actually really enjoyed that new Dread. Actually, that was, well, no, I saw the Sylvester Stallone one. Is there another one? There's another one with Carl Urban. Oh. Is I, Preston's the Sloan one?

That was almost an awesome film. Yeah. So that's the thing. I think that was right on the line of like, because I enjoy the Sylvester Stallone one from like a, I wouldn't say it's campy, but I enjoy, I enjoy that film.

And I like a good, like silly action movie. But the dread, it's just called dread with Carl Urban, completely different take. And not even the same storyline. Just like only the character gets moved over. Helmet never comes off like the comic book.

And it's just very, and it's a little funny, but not in a kind of, it's not a comedy, obviously. It's just, he's so stoic and, like, brutal that it's funny. And, yeah, it's just a good time. But why did I start talking about the remixed stuff? Crap. I was, what we were just talking about what you said was, why don't they make felt films that didn't land again and leave the classics alone? Yeah, but there was something right before that that spurred them. Anyway, but I do.

I thought you changed the subject. When was the last time I saw Robocop? Oh, you know what's crazy? Like three nights ago. So the local, my local bar by my house, they always at night, they just play movies. Granted, there's no audio, but they leave the subtitles out of favorite. So I was watching it, yeah, four days ago in a bar, you know, the perfect place for it. Just said like the moving masters, I'm watching it.

I'm like, that's an eight-minute take. Yeah. Extras that, you know, when he's going into the, you know, the movie. the squad room and stuff and guys are getting changed and putting on their gear to go out and fight crime I'm watching this thing

go around and there's crosses and passes and I'm like that's half a day there that shot I mean

that is a really impressive film it really is it's very hard to do if you copy that shot by shot man that would be

a six month schedule for that film it's really good and that film was ostensibly low budget apparently yeah you can see it

I mean, you can see where they didn't have quite enough, but boy, they rang every penny out of that camera department. I tell you, I was very impressed. Yeah, and who did all the visual effects? Was that Phil Tippett? I think it was Phil Tippett, did all the... When the Steadicam, it had to have been Garrett Brown or someone on Steadicam, right? Because it was really good.

It's got to be someone like that. It is kind of a bummer that the interest in filmmaking as a career has exploded. Because now, you know, you can point. to one steady came up then and it's now it's like well who how would we know you know there was only granted it's better that more people are telling stories you know a diversity and storytelling is always an improvement but in terms of just getting jobs it's a little it's a little harder when the at least for me for the uh when the field is that saturday how did you how did you get involved with gemstones anyway ask you question first that well meant it was a very secure a unfortunate

at Root. I was the A camera operator on Halloween, the 2016 one. And Danny McBride was the writer of it, I think. So I was in South Carolina. I wasn't aware of Eastbound and down or any of that. And I'm down there, I'm doing my thing. It was a really

cool movie. That went very well. I enjoyed that one. It was good, right? There's lightning in a bottle on that one. And anyway, McBride was there and we'd would be, you know, we'd chat and whatnot. That show went well, then Gemstones was starting, and that DP brought me in on Gemstones as the A operator, and they have a very tight click. It's the company's called Ruff House, and it's Jody Hill, Danny McBride, David Gordon Green,

and who's the fourth one, Jonathan Watson, I think? They're very, very, very tight, and it's very difficult to get in there, and I just sort of wandered in without any sort of hereconceived notions. I got very fortunate. They just sort of let me into their click. And I was a operator. Mike Simmons,

the director of photography, went on vacation to Japan for three weeks in the middle of the episode. I took over for those three weeks. It went well. And I ended up shooting Jody's episodes from there on out until I took over the show. I did half the episodes in season two

and then took over. in season three. That's, that's how it, that's how it happened. Gotcha. And what do you think, this is kind of a, maybe not a personal question, but what do you think leads to someone getting that type of advancement? Like what personal qualities do you think someone should aspire to have to work their way up a ladder of that kind? Because you, because you could just stay as a gaffer or a camera operator your whole life. Yeah, you could. You could.

And that'd be a very noble career, you know, that's probably wise. But the answer to your question is this. And it's, there isn't a career path. It just isn't one. It just things happen the way they happen. So with any job on a film set, the assumption is you know what you're doing.

And after that, It's a popularity contest, right? It's like you got the job because you know the producer, you know this, you know, the blah, blah, the usual nonsense. You just have to be completely ready when that opportunity comes. I didn't know Mike was going on holiday, and I didn't know I was taking over the scenes, that the toughest scenes of that entire show were in the club sinister. Do you remember, and season one, it was all the, it was an disused powerhouse,

and it was crazy shit all over the place. I took over. That's where I stepped off the camera and jumped into that. Oh, my God. But I was ready. I had the knowledge. I did okay. I knew what I was doing.

So that would be the overriding factor. You've got to be fully prepared for when the opportunity comes because everybody gets one. But you might not get two. Yeah. That's the thing. You know, one of my favorite musicians, Josh Homi, I think he said something along the lines of opportunity is where preparation meets luck. 100%.

And, you know, truthfully, one doesn't happen without the other. You need both. Yeah. You do. But if you get the opportunity and you blow it because you weren't really where that's on you, you know, it really is. I've certainly had a number of situations that my life would probably be different. Not necessarily because I wasn't prepared.

I was given opportunities that no amount of preparation would have, the opportunity was to, it was built for someone else. You know what I mean? Like I was prepared for a maybe one to two level jump and I was given like a 15. And I was like, I have no, you know,

it'd be like I just got out of film school and got offered a feature. It's like there's no shot. There's just that would have been, I don't know how to run a crew at that point, you know, that kind of thing. That's always a bummer to think about. But it's like, listen,

it wouldn't have gone better if I did it. And, yeah, when I say, yeah, preparation isn't a great word, is it? Preparation is like saying gravity. What is preparation? Ultimately, you have to have garnered the experience, the 10,000 hours. There's absolutely something to that you got put in the time. You really do. You can't just wander in there and hope the gaffer can lice it.

Hope the key grip can rig it. Hope the production designer's got a plan. Hope the board operator knows to do this. You have to know what you want them to do. It's not their job to do that. Your job is to do that. Well, and I think too with especially younger filmmakers, because I try to be as educational as I can't,

you know, whatever I learn, I try to pass it on. And one of the things that I think is frustrating is with the internet, frustrating to younger filmmakers. With the internet, you can have a lot of knowledge, way more than if you just had to find some random book that's out of print, you know, and that's all you've got. But I think with that comes the expectation, that you now have that knowledge, therefore you are qualified.

Yes. And I say, yeah, you can't jump the line like that. You can't be so educated, you know, education isn't very important, but experience is a necessary yin to that yang. Well, look, I mean, there used to be typewriters, right? Then the word processor came out. It didn't make word, the word processor didn't turn everybody into Henry David Thoreau, did it?

Right. at the tool to type things so the internet will give you five quotes about like the Maisel brothers

and the filming of the salesman and stuff it's like yeah but do you know how to do that because I do but you just read

about it right you know what I mean because you were talking about documentaries and let's sort getting a bit tangential here

Barbara Coppel in the Harlem County USA that's an absolute masterpiece you know and that's a doc and there's no

there's no excuses made it's shot beautifully the salesman is one of the best looking movies ever and it happens to be a documentary that's Al Mason you know I'm watching it I'm like how

how are you moving his camera I know you don't have a dolly it's a masterpiece you know and these are people who master of their craft who just know what they're doing and no amount of internet surfing is going to get you there. You must, I don't know if you go to school. I don't know if you

grab a camera. I don't know if you work in the grip department, electric department. I don't know what you've got to do, but you must have experience. You must know how this stuff works. You won't go there and just conduct it like an orchestra. It just won't work. Yeah. From my point of view, I do feel like, you know, my generation certainly was told. We were all told, you know, go to school, get any degree, and that'll help. And I think there's some revisionist history on. I've heard a lot of, you know, people's parents of our age being like, we never said that. It's like, you absolute, how did we all have the same dream then? You know, we didn't all make this up. But if you can afford film school, I say do it,

because it'll help, it'll help jumpstart a lot of things. But I think, to your point, I think grabbing a camera and finding as many friends are interested in playing makebelief will teach you far more. And using those lessons you learned online, you know, but when, when that knowledge college hits, practicality, you'll learn a lot more than, you know, especially running crews. Like, working with other people is, I think it's the more online you are, the less you will work with other people and that makes you less prepared for film. To your point. I mean, there's, who wrote the article that you're quoting?

Who is this, this masked man? Right. How do you know this person has any idea what they're talking about? What if, what if there's, you know, they're, what if there's something you're Enron? You know, where this they just set you up for another Ishtar. What's going on here?

How do you know? You know, you've got to be careful where this information's coming from. Really, you need to align yourself with someone you know, knows what they're talking about. And just be there. Yeah, that was legitimately

when I started writing for Pro Video Coalition like eight, 10 years ago, whatever it was. One thing I had to start doing immediately because I had that exact thought is like, no one's going to take me serious. Because I was writing alongside like people who are established like I've said this a million times this guy Art Adams he's now the R a lens specialist but just a brilliant mind altogether great DP and I was like no one's

going to read my articles if they don't know who I am so I started you know like every article I'd make I would have like a YouTube video separate so they just could see me and like I could use whatever gear I was reviewing in like a scene or something to prove I knew what I was talking about at least in this space because otherwise like you're saying it's like who's who's who's David Smith you know like so true and as far as film school goes

I mean I would encourage you to go I didn't go I left school at 15 and came to the States when I was 20 and rode around on a motorcycle and wound up your chance in the film

that's a school in and of itself it is however if you go to film school you got to go at it that you've got to be so annoying to that teacher

you've got to every ounce of out of that guy that by the time he's done, he's like a wet paper bag on the floor. There's nothing left. You've dragged everything out of that person. That's how we don't go in there and just float around and like, oh, maybe I'll be a sound man, maybe I'll be there. Figure out what it is you want to do.

But then, like, attack, attack, attack. And in your four years, or however long it is, make sure you've just gotten everything you can get out of it. Because I do know some people who went to field school. Some of them are very bright, but really not particularly. Particularly, they can talk about new wave art films and things like that, which I can't do. But they didn't help them in their career. They couldn't find a way to leverage what it is they learned.

And that's a big mistake. You know, it's like going to school to be an electrician and coming out and not knowing how to be an electrician. What happened? Right. Well, and I can say sort of on the flip side of that coin, I was the one who largely floated around. And I can tell you it doesn't, doesn't work. I did, same thing with the motorcycle idea. There was a lot of other life experience that certainly helped me out leaving.

But from the film side of things, I had to catch up, you know, after. Yeah. I don't know if I would trade it, but it certainly didn't serve my film career for the first handful of years. Yeah, it's hard for me because I never went, so I can't be objective. No, but you're right. I mean, that speaks to my experience, at least. Yeah. I did want to actually touch on some going back to gemstones.

You had mentioned for the Civil War episode, trying to emulate the silver nitrite prints. And I was wondering what, because that is almost the polar opposite of film, like motion picture. In what ways were you able to achieve that? And at any point, did you go 100% in that look, maybe in the grade and then dial it back?

Or like, what were the aesthetics there that you were able to achieve? And maybe which ones didn't fit that idea? Well, the pictures, those photographs are epic, aren't they? I mean, everyone was seeing those Civil War pictures. So I looked into that. They're almost hyper real. Well, they are, right? So there was a breakthrough, this Colloden process where the exposures went from two minutes

to like 30 or 40 seconds which really got it looking good because then everything wasn't because you blink on a too minute exposure you're just a blurry mess right so I looked at those those ones some French bloke came up with it and what I noticed was how

they're obviously in some sort of studio or some sort of environment there were tabloes and they would just drop these guys into these tabloes with the tent behind them and everything right it'd be a soldier and a kid and a bottle of whiskey or something and then they just walked out the backgrounds will remain the same so i just did that so i'd find these with what i thought were interesting backgrounds with

direct sun so they made that crazy and then just built a black box put our people in the black box um passive filled them with a 12 by muslin over crank the camera and had them so sit as still as they could and as soon as you say tell someone to sit still they start twitching and move in stuff and it worked great. Their blinks are slow, so it's 60 frames per second. And it really, and it's super effective. It really invoked like ghosts. Because there's some of those that are subjects like 16, 17, 18, their children. And they're dead now. Right. That's what those photographs, or my representation of those photographs were supposed

to represent, like, they're dead people now. They're gone. Right. And you're specifically talking about that kind of, montage, I suppose, dirt the person, she's like snap, snap, snap, snap. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, half a million people, half a million men died that war, right? Yeah. Yeah. I also found the

it, I don't know if I would say it was smart because I don't like, but I found it interesting that at no point do we discuss necessarily the morality of which side is fighting, which side Mr. Gemstone is picking because he's just a scounder regardless.

Like either side, he would have been a piece of shit. So what, you know, I thought that was a cool little like narrative thing. It's like, yeah, all right, he's on the South, but he doesn't seem to care. What a narrative masterpiece that was, because you're the only person that's touched on that. And while I was doing it, I'm like, that's a fucking Confederate flag. It's flapping back there. Yeah.

No one said a word, which is that it's a massive success you're watching not getting ready to get offended it was brilliant it was absolutely brilliant and you're right he's a union soldier until it's convenient to be a confederate soldier until it's convenient to be a union soldier until it's convenient to get the hell out of there with his money you know yeah yeah so you you're you nailed it with that and I'm so I'm proud of that and nothing to do with me but it's like no one ever drifted into the sensitivities of the 21st century where we're taking pictures of the 1900s or the you know the 19th century right 1850s well and it sets up them the main show so well because it's like

yeah you know grifters will do it you know that's their job is to grift not to choose side so to speak you know thanks i mean what a performance by bradley cooper right yeah he's pretty good at his job Isn't it bad? Yeah. You know, I gave him a couple of pointers along the way. I'm like, yeah, not branding. Maybe you should look this way. Sure.

No, I didn't. That really didn't. That he was an absolute master of his art. I mean, he made that easy. Yeah, I mean, if that guy picked his nose, it would look awesome. Did he have any input on anything? Because he's directed a handful of times, hasn't he? And did the Gershman film, right?

The Maestro. Yeah. Did he direct that? Oh. So I didn't see that one. So I'm a little ignorant on it. But obviously, I knew about it. It's good.

I think Jeevo. It's not bad. I got it. I probably should just get that on. We're right. I have a big old blue. I know. And I don't,

I don't, these days, I don't even bother with streaming. Because half the time, if it's not on the streamer, it's just like, oh, you can buy it.

And then I'm like, but I'm not buying it. I'm buying it. I'm buying a license to watch it until you decide otherwise. Now I just go and wait for the movie to be roughly the same price as the digital purchase. And I just, you know,

put it on the shelf. So I can pick that one up. But in any case, was he maybe potentially not directly like, hey, we should do this, but did he impart any sort of education on anyone that you saw? No, not education. He's super involved. That word collaboration sucks, doesn't it? It's just a cat-gought word, we collaborate.

Look how nice time I collaborate. Well, nowadays it's co-labs. Oh, is it? Yeah, all the kids are co-labbing. Yeah, that's not going to fit my lexicon at all. My lecture doesn't swear words, but the first scene in the church where Abel Greaves was stealing all the money from the women and children and stuff, he sits up behind the priest. Remember that? And then he gets up and he just leans on the post.

Out of focus. Well, right. But that's the first time we see Elijah Jamstone. It's the first time we see Elijah Jamstone. So I said to him, how do you want to do, how do you want me to reveal it? You want to be behind the post? You want to be slightly in front of the post? Do you want to be lean?

Tell me what you want. And let's say, we'll light it. So we messed around with it. He said, like this. I said, all right. So we did that because it's crucial how we see the guy for the first time. And then when we got into the tents, memories sort of differ.

I think I came up with it. I think Bradley thinks he came up with it. Maybe we came up with it. But with the Ned shot, what was his name, last name, Ned Rollins, when Ned Rollins gets murdered by Bradley, he's in the count of the money, we matched that shot perfectly to the final shot of the episode where he reads the Bible and finds God. So that's an exact shot match.

And when we're in the tent, I think Bradley said, you know, it'd be awesome if we match that shot, the M1, or some version of that. But it's, that's what we did. It's good bookends. Yeah, it was really cool, man. So that one, the Ned, the Ned Rollins getting murdered was actually on the cab site in the middle of the night,

and the final scene in the film was in the defunct Sears in Charleston. He made it look like that. It was a good match, though, right? I thought the whole thing was location. I didn't have me set work on that. Just that we did the gambling, the card game.

that was on the stage and the final scene was on the stage that was it everything else was out there how do you because i've seen a couple maybe this was for gemstone but you know i follow a bunch of cinematographers and got for some stuff on instagram and i remember someone pointing out that they were shooting and i think it was a sears or something like a defunct sears and it's like how does one a find a mall first of all we should just be changing malls across America into shooting stages and stuff, that'd be great. If they're not going to be places where the youths can hang out, let's make them worth something. But what are the challenges of shooting in a department store that's empty? Because obviously the grid's not set up for it. You know,

like what kind of retrofitting do you do? Well, that's it. You've nailed it really. You pulled down the suspended ceiling, but the roof, there's girders up there. It's only about 15 feet. It's really tricky. It's really tricky. Yeah, that's it. Is there any advantage? Is it just price? Like, it's easy to rent that out? Well, the advantage is everybody's in the same place. So wardrobe, electric grip and props, everybody is in the same space. So that's, that's really awesome. You're not driving around that a lot going, God knows where to the prop department. You know, it's everything's there. So that's a huge advantage. Parking is brilliant. There's nothing but it's good.

There's a, there's a local bar nearby. That's good. That's always helped. But apart from that, no huge advantage to shooting in the Sears. Yeah. That is smart. We might be on to something. There's a lot of, hey, I'll, you can co-sign it and we'll give you 10%. Well, I think that's sort of got Danny McBride written all over it.

I bet you're 50 bucks. That was his idea. He was like, hey, there's a Sears by my house, you know. That's very much his thinking. It really is. I mean, I don't know. I am going to insider information. I could text him and ask him, but I,

I bet you it was his idea. That's another guy. Him and, like, John C. Riley are two people that I think are cut from the same cloth where it's like they're both hilarious and narratively, you know, very intelligent and are able to kind of pick a genre and go. Yeah, I mean, Danny McBride. I can't speak to John C. Riley, but Danny McBride, underestimate him at your peril. You let me do that.

You won't be back. Very smart guy. I know we're a little over and I'll let you go on a second but I did want to talk about briefly the idea of shooting ostensibly a comedy in a very serious way

and when do you break from that if at all and how shooting something with dramatic intent can enhance comedy I think it does if you've got talented players again everything sounds

I don't mean it to sound like I'm blowing smoke up everybody's ass but you know that cast they're really good I don't really need my help to the comedy I'm not even sure I don't even I don't believe in that old adage is nothing funny about shadows I don't even know who coined that it doesn't make any sense

you know like the guy that shot Chinatown shot bad news bears they look the same Alonzo right I actually used that in an interview for a movie It's like, you know, that's the same DP, and I actually got the movie based on that. So, to your point, I don't like gemstones like a comedy. I mean, I don't go as dark as I would if it were a thriller, but the light intention is the same. Maybe there's a half a stop more filled than a normal there would be if it was a thriller.

But I still take pride in making it look non-comedic in its much. It should be visually interesting. well and I think too if you take if you take the cinematography seriously the words that are spoken even if they are comedic don't become then absurd right like it maybe just serves the wrong word

but like it they I feel like if you were to light it like um what's that other dangit ride movie hot rod you know that that is that is almost fantastical whereas this show isn't necessary. Well, I guess you've got like you've got like monster truck scenes

and ninjas. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know. That, I mean, look, talk about the motorcycle ninjas for a minute. I mean, you talk about the scale of the show. So do you remember the scene where they're racing and wheelying and stabbing each other with cattle prods and gun over the handlebars and all that crap? So we scout that. And it's a mile and a half road in the middle of Charleston. And I get there. I look at it. I'm like, well,

none of these lights work, none of these lights work. None of the street lights work. I mean, you've got to replace them. And they said, okay. So they did. So it's like a mile and a half and replaced all the lights. And then, Eddie Bowling

the ring an electrician, I got, I said, I got even more good news. They put sensors on top of those. You've got a cap every one of those sensors because we've got our lifts and our HMI's. And if you don't, the HMI's are going to turn the street lights off that you just put up. Right. so that was the scale of that show I mean it was

there really was no no like you remember when you started out when you're starting out and you didn't know what you're doing you'd say well yeah but if I had a 50 foot techno and 120 foot condos I could do it and then someone says

okay yeah and you're shit where do I put this stuff how do I do it so that actually has happened to me you know in the past couple years where I've talked about this before but I was told

that we were doing a low budget project and so I was really doing my best to like only use gear that I owned and like trying not to rent as much and then at one point the director-producer guy goes like because I was like yeah that would have been a lot easier if I just had this and he was like well why didn't you ask for it?

Yeah. And I was like I thought this was low budget and he's like yeah well you got to ask for it like we'll tell you if it's in the budget because I was still in the mode of like if I make this too expensive they're going to fire me But once I learned in this case, once you get the job, ask for it, you're not going to get fired because you asked. You're going to get fired for wasting money if you ask for it and then you don't use it.

But if you ask for it and they give it to you, then we're good. To your point, nobody remembers the conversation of, oh, daily, he's great, he saved this a fortune. Those conversations don't happen. I don't remember that. They don't remember that you had a 50-foot tectro crane and condos. They just know it looked good. What they do is it looked like shit, and we had to reshoot it. That's what they remember.

So, yeah, be careful with that. It's a hard lesson to learn. I was fortunate in Gemstones, the UPM, David Brightbill, was an AD. We would have very grown-up conversations. I'd tell him, this is what I think. And he would say, his quote, his comeback line was, you explain to me why you need that piece of equipment, so I can explain to HBO.

why you need that piece of equipment. You haven't got to convince me, you've got to convince HBO. I'd be like, great. And I would explain it. This is why I think you need a 50 foot techno. I don't think you can do it with Dolly because of the terrain. Where the problem is, I think Steadicam is the wrong language and handhelds out. We could do it in cuts, but we know we need this.

This is why I think you need that piece of equipment. But I'm open to any and all suggestions. And boom, next day, there's the 50 foot techno. Yeah. It's helpful in the UPM that knows what they're talking about. 100%. I'll end on this question, because I like it, and I try to ask a lot of people this. But when you're designing the language of the show, the whole show, not just the Civil War episode, what don't you do?

What don't I do? Well, I don't know, because I didn't do it. Well, but like when you're discussing making the show, obviously, you're like, when you said, like, all handheld is out or whatever. like is that is that a hard and fast world you're like all right this isn't a show where we do this that's a different that's a different movie that's a different tv show no i was being a bit facetious there no i mean um nothing's off the table oh uh i try not to mix languages meaning do you do your masters on dollies dolly's do you know your cowboys on dollies and then flip the handheld i try not to do that um i try not to do you um i try not to

lean too much into steady cam instead of dollies i try not to use a steady cam instead of a dolly do you know what i mean i use a stick cam as a steady cam i don't like doing that um i don't care how good you are as a steady cam operator it's not a dolly shot right so that i think if i don't really have too many hard and fast rules that might be one um i would rather not do the shot if you haven't got time for the Dolly shop, then let's just not do it rather than bang it up on the steady cam and racing and it's like a fighter jet going down an alleyway. I don't want that. Back to that dreaded word, the co-lab, which I think I'm going to have to use now. I'll just ask, what do you think? We've got to get the camera from here to here. How do we do that?

I'll talk to the Dolly grip, the key grip, the camera operator. I'm like, this is what I think. Beat it. And not said what they think. I said, those are terrible ideas. We want to do what I did. but that's that's it so there's nothing's off the table but i try not to do things like that i've always said you you're really got to know the rules before you break them yeah you'll be people who watch films and like these films are like shit they can't tell you why but as a filmmaker you should know why and they're responding to you mix in languages they're responding to crank in the the ISO instead of lighting it they're responding to too soft and no direction that's that's what people who you say films

like crap are responding to. It's our responsibility not to do that. Yeah. Have a have a vision and stick to it. Well, just again, again, I feel like I'm contradicting myself all the time. Have your vision, but when things are changing, it's like change the vision. It's like, all right, well, that's not going to work. So let's do this. You know, that that's it, that is something that I've taken from being a magician is that sometimes halfway through the trick, someone says something or maybe a card is in the right spot. And you can just check that the magic trick doesn't exist until it ends so you can change you know along the way you can change what you're doing until you the reveal right you know so you can change your vision in this example you can

change your vision until the release as long as it all as long as the journey matches in the end the reveal is uh makes sense for what you've just done and doesn't feel like you were doing three tricks and then ended on one of them you know i think that works well i think you just hundred a metaphor there's because it's you see what I did there yeah it's no one cares about the process they just care about the the finished image right so exactly the same thing no one care you know this is actually a very prescient sometimes you'll be on a film set and you look at all the gear and all the shit and all the stuff and all the cranes and all the stuff and you see the shots you know the set the set up it's much better than the shot yeah the problem

I'm much more interested in the crane than I am and what the crane's doing. That's a problem. Do you know what I mean? 100%. Exactly what you just said with your magic trick. Yeah. Well, I know you're working on your film right now,

so I'll let you go. But it was wonderful talking to you. And as an aside, a lot, you know, I tell my friends that I'm interviewing new people. And the vast majority of my friend group is just absolutely addicted to the show. So you guys have been doing a great job, and I hope you get to do it. long as you want.

Oh, thank you so much. It was a real pleasure. Thanks for calling. We'll do it again. I'd love to chat again. We'd love to. But until then, take care, brother. Man, see you.

Frame and Reference is an Albot production, produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so by going to frame and refpod.com and clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated, and as always, thanks for listening. I don't know.