Frame & Reference Podcast - 207: "A Cursed Man" Cinematographer Blake Horn

Episode Date: September 5, 2025

Today I'm joined by the my friend Blake Horn to about his work on super interesting Documentary A Cursed Man.Enjoy!► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠F&R Online ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Support F&R⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Watch on YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Produced by Kenny McMillan► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Hello, and welcome to this episode 207 of Frame and Reference. You're about to drop into a conversation between me, Kenny McMillan, and my guest, Blake Horn, TP of a cursed man. Enjoy. I was at the ASC Clubhouse doing a video with my friend Joey who does Adam Savage's tested YouTube channel. Cool. And Steve Gainer from, he's the curator of the clubhouse, or of the museum there, was walking us through like a history of cameras. Because they've got literally like the first of many different things. Like I was holding the very first anamorphic lens.

Whoa. Which was just this box, like a tin box with a very foggy. anamorphic element in it, which they would just slap up against a regular lens. I figured the first anamorphic lens would have been built, but no, it was an adapter. I love that. I think that's like, just like they're magicians, alchemists. And I think that like, you know, the whole, you know, when you're on set and like, you know, all the hell's breaking list and you're doing shitty regs and you're like, oh man, like,

and you have imposter syndrome where you're like, am I even good enough or whatever? it is and it's like, you know, these are just a bunch of artists who are kind of brilliant and we're like, let's just combine these weird elements together and then like create literally magic. Well, the thing that I found fascinating was like, especially because a film is such a young medium and with all those cameras in front of you, you can see where one DP got annoyed enough to make the next iteration. So like the way that then before reflex.

right before you had the prism. They would have to shift the entire camera to one side. Well, first they would just look in like a lens that was kind of close to it. So like a TLR, like a twin lens reflex in a way. Four or less, but they're at zero reflex. And then eventually they got pissed off enough that you had to go to the other side of the camera. Like you used to have to rotate everything, look in the other operators or the assistant side. Okay.

To the operator's side, flip everything back and then do it. Then a guy goes, how about I move the camera. camera body, instead of taking everything off the dovetail, move the camera body to one side, so you can look through the taking lens and then move it back to record. Amazing. And then another guy goes, well, all that's annoying. What if I just make it a rotator? Oh, I love this.

And it's just like step after step. So every, and then I immediately after I did a podcast at the clubhouse with the guy, the Ari product specialist. And he was telling me about Ari's like digital. in general talking about the progress of digital which is obviously much more recent but it's crazy to think

that in only 120 years yeah there hasn't been a lot of changes and most of them are workflow based there's not really like but it's always like someone does something enough because we were talking about like the RE35 and it's like why did that come about it's like well

you know the mini wasn't supposed to be an operator camera so we spent a lot of time listening to people made the 35 shit like that but you're right It was like, it was science, but at the same time, it was practicality and a little bit of magic, as you said, you know, like just using what you had to make it work and make it pretty for the time. And like, it's so funny to think about like the, like the Airy Mini, right, the Alexa Mini. And like before that was like the Alexa M, right? And it's like, you know, these unintentional consequences that shape so much of like, you know, you have a tool like, uh an Alexa like a big classic and then they come out with a mini you know the intention is

steady cam gimbals were starting to become a thing at that point drones were starting to become a thing and then everybody just adopted it in full and we're like no this is this is how we're going to use it and i think that's always so like interesting and you know like coming from like an engineer's perspective you know thinking about like the engineers that designed the camera it's like i don't think they were anticipating that at all and you know the reality is is that like that camera shaped so much of modern cinematography and storytelling. There's also a fun fact that I learned was there was a guy who sold water skis, who was also a camera guy.

He wanted to sell his water skis. So there's this video called This is CinemaScope. And he built one camera. It's at the ASC. And it's three cameras bolted to each other aiming like one left, one center, one right. And then he filmed up like a bunch of girls on water skis doing. the pyramid and then like on a roller coaster and stuff and it was like halfway to sell his water

skis but he built the cinemascope camera set like a just giant box but yeah it's all just like nothing is nothing is set in stone everything is whimsy you know digital is almost more boring because it's like well where's the whimsy and yeah you can rig it however you want but like none of us are sitting here like you know what i'm going to put that sensor in that body yeah upside down you know whatever it is but i forget the filmmaker and it's um what was the movie it was like it came out of like 2012 it was like uh it wasn't gutter flower but it was something like that where he like just straight up built his own cameras oh i don't know uh there was like a whole flame flower thrower aspect tons of like gnarly cars like post apocalyptic look and i think

he like built his own cameras for it um oh the name slips by me but um i'll have to look that up i just love when people are just like ingenious they're like i want to create this thing it doesn't exist so i'm just going to make it and oftentimes it's falling apart uh it's like never working but you know you push through and if you're able to like actually like obtain it that's like what filmmaking is i think it's just like um you're just like constantly trying to make it work make it work and it always turns out uh differently than you envision it but that's like part of the process that's the journey well it's like it's like i think the best filmmakers are at their heart tinkerers and problem solvers not necessarily

quote unquote artists although that's certainly an element but i think the people who succeed in this industry are the ones that enjoy collaborative problem solving more than yeah and art's messy it's like that's you know humans are messy we're super emotional we're rarely logical um there's a lot evidence to support that now, which is, which is a blast. And you're like, oh, no. That's bad. But, you know, that's the beauty of art. It's like really being able to, like, share that human spirit. Yeah. Which I'm like, yeah, it leads me to thinking about AI. And I'm like, oh, God, here's another thing. I'll say this. I have tried four different times now to get chat TPT to write me very simple code.

It failed on all four times. One of them, I straight up said, can you generate luts? And they went, yes. I said, can you generate a lut based on this film stock? Absolutely.

And I spent two weeks of it going, almost there, just got to upload it. And it was two weeks of it couldn't do it. And then I finally go, it sounds like you're in a loop. And it goes, actually, yeah,

I can't actually make luts. Oh. And dude, I got to send you a screenshot of the conversation. It's creepy how it was like, I feel really bad about this. I shouldn't have been stringing you on, blah, blah, blah.

And it's like, yeah, because these, you know, generative AI is one thing. But, like, these chat GPT models are not intelligent. But, like, still, they are based off of reading our conversations, not our thoughts. Yeah. Right. And so the other times, it was just basic, like, server code or, like, any simple, you know, four lines.

And it would still fuck it up because it's reading, it's just reading and regurgitating. it's not coming up with smart you know maybe it's it could be a good research tool or but i'm not as afraid steve over at the asc was talking a lot about his thoughts on ai and stuff and i i don't know if i'm quite i was more scared before i used it and now i'm like wow i don't know for i just you know i think it's like you're depriving like the experience of collaborating with like another individual like obviously you're just experimenting with a lot but like the reality is it's like you're like discovering and fine-tuning and like creating a lot whether that's you like watching youtube tutorials which is great i love youtube i think youtube's like the pinnacle of human

existence it's like you can learn anything that's amazing someone can hold your hand and as long as your patience you can really like figure anything out and like or if you work with a dit and you like being up with a buddy you have a beer you like you do a camera test and you're just discovering something And I think like, like, that's the human way. And that's like, we're fun. Yeah. And it's like, you know, I feel like AI is all about results rather than you're just totally skipping out on the journey, which is like that is fundamentally what makes us like creatures and humans. And to just completely not do that because some tech bro wants to make a gazillion dollars, I'm like, just it's a hard no for me.

It's a hard pass. Maybe I'm a dinosaur. No, no. Well, and I think the people that want a result right now are, as you said, probably people just trying to make money. I think, or maybe others, but I think the people that want that who aren't in it for the money, but just see cool stuff, you know, maybe they're younger or whatever, haven't yet experienced the joy that is collaboration and iteration and failure, for lack of a better time. Like, um, I, you know, it reminds, you know, obviously your doc is about magic. I'm a magician of the, uh, trickery sort. But, um, one thing that always ruins the experience.

Every time you'll do a card trick for someone, how'd you do that every single time? And there's all kinds of fun ways to tell them no. Yeah. Anytime you acquiesce and show them, you watch, you watch them just go, oh, they don't go, oh, that's so cool. very rarely every once in a while someone is like into learning magic and then you show them they like because they want to iterate they but if it's just a lay person as it were they the second you show them how all the all the tension is gone the magic is gone the oh so you just tricked me yeah just moved your hand like this and it's like that's and it's the same thing with getting those results instantly it's like yeah yeah okay now you know how to do the trick is that fun yeah do you feel like you learn anything because that's the other thing right like learning is iterative learning is failure you don't learn from success you learn from having your hand bitten and then going like oh

don't do that again you know correct if someone says don't do that then you'll be like all right and then you forget you need to internalize things it it like turns your brain to mush literally like if you if so much is giving you answers there's no self-exploration there is no adventure there is no discovery it's and it's so funny you like and I think that's where like so many it's interesting about like the card trick and you show like the layperson and they're like oh like that was underwhelming and it's interesting when it comes to filmmaking because I think everybody is like at one point in their childhood discovered like what people were doing that made the movie like you watch

this thing and you're like oh wow I like feel something I love movies and then you see like wait people made this and you're like how did they make this? What, like, I'm such a big fan of, like, Alien Terminator, like, all, like, old, like, sci-fi 80s, 90s classics and the thing, like, and just seeing, like, the practical effects and how things, like, came to be. I was, like, that for me was, like, getting to see the car trick and be like, I want to know, I want to do the car trick. Yeah. But see, that's fun. Whenever I meet people who are like, I love car tricks, I want to learn up, it's great. And it's the same thing with film, you know, I'm writing for Pro Video Coalition or just, I have an intern now.

like uh yeah i know uh passing on as much knowledge as possible i get a lot out of and especially with newer people coming through they ask questions that maybe you've completely skipped over or maybe hadn't thought about in a while and can now bring a new perspective to like it it it keeps that um the human element as you were calling it alive within yourself you know it's very easy to get complacent um granted i'm not at a high level but you know i'm sure when you get to a certain level in film or whatever it may be, you start to maybe phone it in or you think you know everything so you stop asking questions.

It becomes a job, you know. So anything that keeps it a lot. It's fun. Yeah. And it's interesting within our field and within our society. It's like, yeah, there are times where it's a gig. It's a gig. And something I've been trying to tell myself.

I take those jobs. A gig's a gig. I would take that paycheck. Yeah, yeah. I do my best, but, yeah. I've been just trying to tell myself, like, I'm not above anything, like, because the reality is you actually are, and your ego might try to tell you otherwise, but, like, think of, like, the gigs

that you got from doing something that you just were like, how the hell did I get to this really cool thing? Oftentimes it starts with something that, like, you know, that you didn't, like, really, like, think of. Like, I day played with a good buddy of mine. This is, like, back on the movie, M, I think the M15 was out. and we operated the two of us. The M5, were the stabilizer?

Yeah, the old movie M15. Oh, movie. I heard movie. I was thinking. Oh, no, no. Sorry, the movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. And it was like this like, I think it was like JCPenny, like really small commercial. And we showed up and the DP was there and we show up, we shoot, and we wrap so much earlier. And we like pack up our things and we look at a non-union shoot. And there is like an obscene amount of gear everywhere. And it is like three people, like a DP, Gaffrin, like an AC, and we're like, oh, my gosh, these people are going to be here for like hours. So we just helped out.

And it turned out the DP that I helped out as like one of my mentors. And like I've got so much work from, so much great advice, so much knowledge from. And it's just like, oh, you just stay back, do what you think is right. And, you know, it just leads to just a whole new like world. Well, and I've found that like the best way to suss out whether you should do a job is like if you trust the person inviting you to the job, but they tell you like, hey, this doesn't have a budget or whatever. And you know that, I mean, this takes effort, obviously in age and experience. But like, if you trust that person and they bring you on a low paying or no paying

job or whatever, nine times out of 10, they probably wrangled a bunch of other people that are in a similar situation that are talented and doing someone a favor. And then that's how you expand your network. That's how you actually, I guess, network, as opposed to, you know, being friendly and waiting. More so than if you were to be like, no, I only take gigs that fit my day right now, you know, or whatever. It's, so this is a great segue because the director of a cursed man, Liam Legu, is also a director of photography.

And I met him on Craigslist in like 20, like 15 or 16. He needed a gaffer. He's from the original jurors, like off the coast of France. It's part of the United Kingdom. and he was in the States he had just moved here full time and he needed a gaffer he just didn't know any gaffers and I came on and we did this like PSA

which is really sweet it was all about like getting kids away from iPads and like playing in real life and we like hit it off and you know fast forward like a decade later and we have like this movie where we travel the world together and it's really bizarre

and like totally nutty and it's like Like, how did I meet Liam? It was because I responded to a Craigslist ad. Yeah. Yeah, it's all about people. You know, it's not necessarily. That's why I'm always like those, when people go like, oh, there's a mixer.

I'm like, don't, don't waste your time on the mixer because that's just a bunch of, you know, students all looking at each other. Like, which one of us is the most successful? You know? It's like speed dating. No, literally. Yeah. Hit up, like, my advice is like, oh, just email someone or DM them or. or text them if you have their number, whether it's a DP that, like, you admire and you know personally,

or if it's a cold call and be like, you know, you want to get a beer, you want to get a coffee, you want to like just go for a walk. I would love to pick your brain. And usually that means you get so much more out of that because you're not going there. When you go to a mixer, you're like, everybody wants work, you know, and there's like blood in the water or they're like, you know, there's sharks and they're like, is there blood in the water? Maybe they're like, there's no blood in the water. There's no cash here.

There's A7S's and a dream. Well, I love, don't say that. Don't knock on an A7S. You're kidding me? That, never knock on an A7S. That's, I'm a huge fan of little cameras. I'm a huge fan of like random cameras. And like, also like, bro, I remember.

There it is. This X100 was my B cam on a dock I just did. How did you like it? Perfect. A cam was a C70 and you would never know. It needs a little bit of. color to, you know, match, but you'd never know. We shot a Chris Man on C70s.

See, okay, thank you. A bunch of my friends keep saying, okay, get good color out of a C70. And I was watching your doc, and I was like, this shit looks good. And just like, no, you. You just haven't done it yet. You haven't done it. And like, yes. Yes, like an airy airwear.

Yeah, they're amazing. It's amazing. They're the easiest tools. Reds, you're working with a computer and, you know, unfortunately that sometimes that's not the best tool, but you can get an incredible image out of any. Literally, I tell everyone if it was made after conservatively 2015, let's say 2015, if you know what your limitations are for that camera, whatever they may be, you can get a phenomenal image out of it.

You know, like the dynamic range situation was pretty much solved by that. Yes. If you're, you know, when I was talking to the Ari guy, he was saying that Ari 35 was made because, or the original Ari was 14 stops because no display could display more than like 12. And now we have OLED and stuff and HDR that can do more. So they're like, our camera needs to be future proof against that. Anyone who's asking what camera they should get is like, get whatever, man, because you're just, it's going to be on YouTube. And then eight stops, you're going to be fine. Just take a little more effort lighting it.

Make sure your highlights aren't blown. You'll be soft. The best is 28 days later. They shot it on Canon. I think we talked about this probably before. X-L-2s. I won't say who just because it might give away whatever, but I just,

another guest of the pod, just came by and grabbed my XL2 to test a, they might use it on this horror film they're working on. Amazing. You know, everything old's new again. Yeah. So on your dock, how many people were that?

Because like, first of all, it looks incredible. Thank you. I would love to. I'm shooting a crap ton of docs right now. Yeah. Normally I'm less questioning, but now I've worked on. Like how much lighting were you getting done here? How much time were you spending on these setups and how many cameras were you working with?

Totally. So camera wise, we shot from me. with two C7 to Canon C70s when we did a interviews we sometimes had a C300 mark two with us as this like sort of higher angle C cam that I think only like one or two shots makes it in the entire dock but my B cam who is with me everywhere except Mexico Sam Rosenthal who's just an incredible like way more than just an operator like definitely he's credited as additional photography because of that just like so hungry to make a good image. just such a great personality and having him there made the experience just so much better um during so it was just me him and leum again a dp so like going into situations you know the most letting that we did was for interviews obviously and we just had a total travel kit we would usually rent stands locally and then travel with a falconized like 18 by 24 inch flex light which i'm a huge fan of those like over aperture x-22s um we had a nan light i think 500 that once a while played

we had nan light pavo tubes um which were super useful trying to think what else we had but tiny little itty-bitty kit and we knew like you know um like the crazy part of falconized can play with daylight if you're like really strategic with your windows and um Oh, also negative. We would travel with, like, Duveteen, just because, you know, nothing, you know, Duveteen is going to be the smallest, latest, most, like, impactful and definitely needing negative. You know, got a listed on a Carnay. Yeah.

Oh, the carnays. Oh, God, dude. I just, I just discovered those, and I go to Spain, and I was like, I'm not fucking doing that. So I just, I got everything to fit in my backpack. Yes. There it is. Tripod. Yep.

Lens, battery, everything. I got these small rig V-locks that you can power by USBC so I didn't... Oh, those are crazy. Yes. That was traveling light. That's also why the X-100 was my V-Campus.

Yes. It fit in my cross-body, you know, in my... That's it. It's like the best cameras you have. Who knows? Maybe I'll get flag for this, but the fact is do not travel with a pelican, right? If you are going to avoid a carnae

and you're like on that line of being like... Because carnays are a huge pain that you have to... If you are going to do a carnaet, you have to make sure you show, you show up early before a flight. You have to make sure that the customs of the office is open. You have to make sure that your flight is going to align with that. Well, and also explain what it is because I didn't even know what it was until I finally had to go fly out of the country.

So O'Connor is basically a type of insurance that is telling a country that you're importing goods that you're not going to sell and that when you leave the country, you're taking the same amount of goods, that you're basically saying, like, we did not bring these in, sell them without. your country basically reaping the benefits at all. Right. Tariffs. Well. Avoidance of tariffs. Yeah, that's a whole other story. But as an indie filmmaker, you know, Carnies are very expensive, one.

And then they're very complicated, especially if you're going to kind of like big international travel, because sometimes if you're flying into a country and you have a layover, but you're going to another country, you still have to get your customs approved. in that location, which is a huge, huge time suck. So your layover might be two hours and you land and you're like, I do not physically have time to leave the airport, get my Karnay approved, and then come back into, go through security and the whole rigmarole. But the trick is no pelicans, do not travel with pelicans, and use think tanks because

they look like just here and use just normal suitcases. and then if you're caught that's on your YouTuber yeah no I was already ready with and to be fair what we were going to shoot isn't like there was no plan it was more just like a thing of opportunity so yeah I mean it wasn't even really going to be

a lie for me if I said I'm making a YouTube video because that could have been it yeah yeah but also the C70 just I made sure to take everything off the C70 so it just looked like a thick D SLR yeah no i think we did it by the books in a corresponda leam is such a great director dp producer he always like crosses his teas and dots his eyes and i almost positive we did a carnage just because we like had a little bit too much gear well and the other thing i should say about

my situation was i was the only one yes plus the other guy who was uh interviewing the subject but other than that you know if you have any more than two people you're and you know the gear the whatever you should i don't think anyone should take from this that you should avoid following the law but indi docs not great budgets oh no yeah yeah yes exactly but yeah uh yeah but i was going to say so you have the c70s obviously got the built in and ds you got great color signs whatever whatever there it is shooting to sd reshooting raw yes because the update had just occurred that we could do raw lt which was wonderful And it's not much bigger than XFAVC anyway.

That's the craziest part. It's not. It's like a tiny bit grainyer. I won't even say noisier, but you do get an extra stop of dynamic range. Like it looks beautiful. And 12 bit color. That's wonderful. 12 bit is like the sweet spot.

It's like that's where it starts really opening up a lot of possibilities. And it's so fun. Yeah. It is grainier only because XFAVC or any of the compressed ones. have built in noise reduction even if you're skipping it yeah exactly so you can just add it in post but i don't know it's like you know you're you're you're you're ruffing up the digital image which almost always i do a pass like a little bit of grain like let's just add 5% of grain that only the colorists can see on their oled monitor that no one else would ever be able to see yeah well it also

does a good job of of kind of uh smoothing out really high frequency detail that no one really wants to see that much. You know, grain, grain has other uses than aesthetic. Exactly. Yeah. For sure. But I noticed not on every shot,

at least it didn't seem like that, but you did seem to have a specialty lens, like a Pets Fall or something like that. So a lot of that's done in post. Funny enough. Look at you. Yeah. Yeah.

So we did have the, um, help me remember, it's the 55 millimeter swirly, swirly spherical lens that's Russian main not Voigtlander it's thank you so much we had a Helios

sometimes that would play and then some most of the time we were shooting with Dezio pictor zoom lenses super 35 really compact and I actually love those lenses I think those lenses are you know Dezio super inexpensive and I actually think

they're like like their optics yeah it's just you know every single time I've like framed up a shot their T-2-9 and shooting with them wide open it's like wow this just looks nice I love the fall off I love the boca I really really like those lenses a lot

big fan and they're parfocal which is crazy especially for the amount that they cost and I like the build they're like actually really really light and a lot of the swirly effect is done in post that's like you know Liam was was very very diligent with making them just

just a little subtle. Just them give it that like otherworldly mysticism to the image. Yeah. And what, what, uh, what were you guys doing for color? Cause it's a very,

um, strong look, you know, it's, but it's not like your classic teal and orange. Like, but it does have a very distinct, uh,

I really love the look of it. Um, oh, thank you. Even the stuff that he's shooting on his phone, uh, I assume his phone, uh,

like airplane and stuff. Like even that was graded in a way that makes it all match. makes it all look good. Like, so what, what were you kind of, were there any references for that? Or was that kind of freeballing or how'd you come up with that? A lot of references were coming from like 80s and 70s horror movies. Like big references were like John Carpenter, altered states, uh, Jacob's Ladder.

And then like mixing this all into a documentary. Like a lot of where we were lighting work, obviously all of our interviews and some of the setups like Liam in his office. Um, and then when he, uh, when there's a scene in New Orleans, I don't want to give too much away that we did light and then let a practitioner just do their thing authentically. And we had a lot going that was very aggressive. And we were using small HD 503 monitors. And then we would just like pull it back a little bit here and there. And sometimes it would set up me like, well, it looks so crunchy. But let's just, you know, just the intensity wise will like dial it back to like 70 or something like that. knowing in post it's like okay we don't want to go this aggressive but i kind of like doing that with luts is like you find one that is super aggressive and then just like you kind of like to that and you're like okay there's like no details in our shadows here what is that actually going to look

like rather than like switching a lutt mid shoot you're actually just like kind of toggling the intensity and then you know like oh the colorist later on i'll be able to communicate with them and give them like the idea and the vision for something like this But for something like this, we are like, this is darker subject matter. You know, we are referencing horror movies to shoot this, but we want to have a more aggressive look. We don't want it just to be like kind of a traditional 709. So, and then when we lit, it's like, you know, single source, topy, let the shadows fall into darkness. And there's some scenes there that I'm like so thrilled and so happy with how it really turned out.

dude that first-ish scene at like 16 minutes in or whatever when the knots oh well that too but I was just going to say in the interview with the guy who's like I don't like he's like talking about being a practitioner he's like I want to curse and then the guy's like uh I'm out and like he immediately yeah he goes from like being very like mystical to like the thing that I really appreciated about this doc was it was not I'm at a loss for words I'm gonna say corny because it would be so easy for you guys to sit in that

like voodoo kind of this guy's looking to get cursed voodoo mode saying and then like off rip you have this one practitioner going like I'm a black man in America I'm cursed every day you want a fucking curse and I was like I love this I love this setup I love that we're taking a up because I'm non-religious I'm not mystical. You know, the moon's the moon.

It's a rock. But I loved the interplay between sort of voices or people or ideas that were much more, I don't know, scientific or realistic maybe, as well as all these people who are true believers in what they're doing. And especially the way that you lit it and shot it, it makes it feel like a movie until you break that kind of fourth wall. and it it's i found it very engaging the way that all of those like you're saying horror elements are brought into a documentary setting and the subject matter i think it was very well crafted thank you so much for that and it's interesting like um that's my favorite part of the documentary and when we filmed that it was very eye-opening about our intentions and and here like going into somebody else's world and asking for something and understanding

our privilege for that as well as being outsiders of a community and beliefs and it's interesting it's like you know people were skeptical of our intentions and liam's intentions about exploring this and asking for a curse and ultimately it's like you know we discover that you know a lot of it is actually you know the way that we as outsiders look at curses a lot of times it's actually yeah these are people's beliefs and often they're blessings they're actually not curses and this idea of we think that like hoodoo and vood have all these curses and Lilith explains like these aren't malicious things these are protective ways of being that people who have no sense or no ability or luxury of actually

protect themselves these curses were to protect themselves these weren't to harm other people but it's to protect themselves and their loved ones and their families and you know a huge probably the biggest thing of the entire documentary is belief and the power of belief I was about to say yeah it's like any religion you know

correct and these are alternative spiritual practices so you can't you know it was so important that to both me and Liam that when we went in here we were not that

no person no practitioner was the butt of a joke right and the best part about screening this was there were like actually the surprising amount of laughs in the theater I was able to see it twice

on the big screen with a pretty large audience and everybody was always laughing at Liam and and always at him and I was like oh this is great and Leo we're both like thrilled about it but going back to the idea of belief and specifically being skeptical is I you know would consider myself as skeptic as well and

when I first had my initial conversation with Liam I was like oh he's like so we're on like you know the a scale of belief like what do you think about all this and i was like well you know i consider myself a skeptic and he asked the question would you get cursed and instantly i was like absolutely now yeah and and you know my question is would you get cursed no it's there you go and now's the thing there it is uh-huh uh-huh i all this i can't remember who said it but i my whole position in life is I don't know.

Not that I do know that something doesn't exist. I don't know. Yeah. I don't want to know in that kid. You know, no, I'm good. You can, uh, I'll take a protective curse. Fuck it. I don't know.

That could help. A blessing. Exactly. I'll take a blessing. Why not? And my, uh, B cam operator and I, Sam, uh, we were wearing, oh, he would remember the, um, the stone. It's this black stone. and that's like a protective stone

and we wore the whole shoe and Sam couldn't join me on Mexico and I had an incredible operator and this wonderful fixer who really saved a day in multiple occasions Nacho and Alejandro and

you know it's like when you're in it and you're like you just don't really know and you know what was so wonderful is that you're surrounded by people who do believe

right and right when you are surrounded by people like that you immediately have so much respect for them and you know a lot of people didn't find comfort or didn't find themselves within mainstream religion and you know these other forms of spirituality they found a lot of um a lot of value in and if anybody can discover that and find that for themselves, then, you know, I'm all here for it. Right. And also, too, like, you know, I was raised a non-denominational Christian, and then I found that wasn't necessarily for me. I still have plenty of friends who are Christian. I got friends from every, you know, whatever. And I, it does make me think a lot of times how I suppose I feel lucky that I don't,

feel the internal need for that sort of unknown comfort or or you know because there's there's something using Christianity as an example because it's just just no uh there is something that a lot of people find comfort in when you you give yourself up to an unknown right instead of trying to micromanage everything in your life at a certain point religious or not you do have to let go and you can do that either through religion. You can do that through any of those sort of, I don't want to say alternative, because that suggests that there's a mainstream, but alternative to us, you know, voodoo, whatever it may be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, just the moon, you know, whatever. I think people do inherently need a reason to let go of control. You need to believe in something.

Like you, you, you know, you just do, whether that's believing yourself, believing your community, believing in a project, right? Like, belief is so important. And just, you know, whether that's tricking your brain into positive thinking, right? But like, you start thinking about, you know, the power of like the placebo effect, which is a totally real and embraced by Western modern science. It is imperative that you have a placebo within any type of scientific study, which is telling someone that they're taking something that it actually isn't, right? Which, you know, like shows the power of belief right there. Well, you've got.

I was going to say, you've got someone, I'm trying not to, like, give away much about this doc. But, like, you've got someone in it who says, like, you know, you meet them. later, whatever, whatever, who's like, a lot of people don't realize the crucial element for any of this to work is themselves. And I'm like, hell yeah, brother. Like, it's, you know,

for instance, like, when someone, you know, they've been married for 80 years and someone dies and they die like right after. Or if some people just, you know, finally, you know, hit rock bottom, not alcohol-wise, but just like in their life. and choose

people hate this phrase and I used to but choose to be happy and then suddenly their health improves you know you're the only you can it's like a vaccine

you know you put it in there to spur the body to do something but oh this is maybe a bad example because I'm not trying to suggest that you shouldn't take vaccines because you should but I'm saying like

you know at a certain there is your body needs to make the thing yeah you know whether it be the mind, whether it be the mind, body, or spirit. Like, oh, there it is. Well done.

But, yeah, I just really think you guys did a great job. Like, as you said, we're not making fun at anyone here. I think it was a, it was a more academic endeavor than I expected based on the, you know, tagline, essentially. When we went to the Ryan Institute in North Carolina and met John, he was the best. like like you know this is this is an institute that used to be part of unc and then i forget what this story is i think it was either a funding dispute or they were they weren't allowing uh dr rind to like conduct his experiments but oh it was it was so cool like um just like you know the passion

truly and like the curiosity you know you know it's i think it is important to be skeptical skeptical to in any type of scenario and to bring critical thinking skills to any type of scenario it is really important because unfortunately there are people up there in the world who prey upon people's ignorance and let's just say that person I'm talking about doesn't exist in this documentary at all yeah uh these folks yeah all those people are frustrating it's You know, like, you have to really look at it, and it always, like, any type of story, any type of person, it's like, what lens are you looking at this through? And, you know, any type of documentary project that I guess are always trying to go in with an extremely empathetic eye of, like, people are inviting me into their homes, they are letting me capture them. And I want to show them in the absolute highest regard and really think about, like, whatever choices they made within their lives and try to.

find, okay, what is the reasoning behind all this? And it's such a privilege to be able to do that for someone to say, hey, you can tell my story. Right. And you just have to like respect your subject matter. You always have to respect them. Well, and it's also like that you're kind of forcing your subject to sort of, in a weird way, fall in love with you immediately because they need to trust you that you're going to take care of them in such a fashion. You know, like it's, it's a very a vulnerable place when you pick these people out of the world they've never been on camera

and then be like, hey, we're going to basically put you under a microscope for an hour and a half and everyone in the world is going to see it. You've got to trust me

that I'm not going to fuck you. You know, that's a very difficult position to put someone in. I thought about this the other day. I was just like getting ready in the morning. I was like,

why would I feel like if I just have your camera from right in here with me right now? Act, I was like, just brush your teeth like you normally do when I'm over your shoulder. There's just like some person's like, gritting their teeth, holding this like heavy camera. It's like trying to be quiet, but like it's sweaty. Yeah.

Like knocking into things and you're like, what is? And it was funny. I just like did this like exercise. I was like, that would just make me feel uncomfortable. But I think eventually you would actually get used to it. Yeah. Well, and then you make friends. you know, I always feel bad when you leave the doc

because then you're like, uh, you know, it's like leaving college. You're like, oh, see again, I guess. Or I guess high school is a better example because, you know, you never see those fuckers anymore. What's that? But I think that's like, oh, it's just like, what a privilege to be invited into someone's life for them to share with you.

And these aren't just like, hey, like, here, meet this person. And surface level, you are. instantly diving into some of the most intimate and vulnerable aspects of a person's existence. And, you know, it's funny. I always think about compensation, right? You always think about compensation for like, I don't know, as, like, what are you getting out of this if you're doing something like this? And you're like, are, am I getting artistic fulfillment?

Am I getting monetary compensation? What is going on here? And I thought about this, like, just onto like a career level, like, how incredibly lucky are we that we get to go to these places that you would have never gotten to go to before experience, like, truly experienced someone else's life, way of life. And then, like, sharing that with the world. It's just such a wonderful, just career, honestly, if you're, you know, and it's challenging, goodness gracious. but ultimately it's just like wow we are so lucky to be able to do this on a hundred percent agree and you know what's crazy is I never thought I was going to be like a documentary DP yeah because I was so into the image you know and obviously there's well I shouldn't say

obviously but like you've shown an example nowadays especially there's a ton of great docs out there I think there's more room to make a gorgeous looking dog then there was when you're on dbxes or whatever and also lighting you much more yeah but uh you're so right like i there is so much joy that i find meeting these people in a non-pretentious manner with a letting crew that's usually your friends or people you know well and just like because i love i love traveling like whenever i'm traveling i just try to find like the closest dive bar and I'll just hang out there for an evening just to

like get a lay of who's there. What's the culture of this town? Yeah. And it's wonderful. You meet the best people doing that. Yeah. Or the other move is you go to a nice cocktail bar and then when they close, ask the bartender

where they're going. Yes. That's fun. Don't do that at the beginning of this week. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You have to have your, you have to stay strong. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, it's like you're like you said, it's, it's such a privilege and it's, it really does make, you know, I'm being compensated relatively well for the docs.

But. Yeah. But the emotional payoff, I think is something that I truly, you know, if I was able to pay my rent and feed myself still, I'd be like, yeah, I'll just come do that. Yeah. I was going to ask. what uh what type of stuff do you bring with yourself outside of the camera um that makes your job easier you know i have like a little refresh kit that i have like mints and gum and deodorant and like you know all the toothbrushes and shit but extra socks this is that is such a good question because

i have it down to a science so i have the first thing is something called the sky clip which is a little plastic hook and that goes either sometimes on the seat in front of you when you're flying or for the tray the problem is you can't use this at the same time that's 13 bucks and it has these two little clip sprockets that you can then put an iPad up so then you're not looking down at the tray and breaking your neck you can look up and then you can put I always travel with an iPad and I have this Tamrak um camera bag that I bought on sale from B&H seven years ago I was $15 and it's like perfect and so I have the iPad I can fit a switch in there so it's always a switch for this travel job we uh we had to do a domestic flight in India when we were heading

back from India we did a domestic flight and then we had a 13 hour layover in the airport oh geez and myself and sam my beat cam off we played switch and I played uh legend or breath of the wild Zelda for i'm not exaggerating 11 hours straight i just cranked it out sam was playing something else for 13 hours and leum didn't have anything and he said he was having an existential crisis of like wandering the airport and not and we couldn't go into the airport because we had all the bags to check so we had to be like in this waiting room like we couldn't leave and go out and we couldn't go into the airport so we were just stuck and Liam had nothing to do like I think he like he exhausted all of his options with Wi-Fi and he think was having the hardest time.

Because those bus stores aren't even outside of the security gate. There's nothing. There's nothing. We had nothing. It was terrible. But I have always a water bottle. I then have an eye mask ear plugs. Always snacks. Usually pistachios, beef jerky, dried fruit. oh my mom always imparted a piece of advice she's like get your absolute like your cheap food like the snack or candy that you're like it's too unhealthy to eat and then save it for the flight and then when you're on the flight you can open it up and be like oh wow this is nice um i love the trader jo's uh dark chocolate covered almonds yeah and then i'll have oh axon makes this really cool um little Sony NP like a battery plate

right it actually goes on their iPad cage and it has charging in with USBC and then USBA and C out and then you can just you know it's part of your kit you don't need another external battery if you need to charge anything when you're flying so I use that and then if I can squeeze it in a book almost never so my iPad

I will also double as my reading material, whether it's a book or a graphic novel. Yeah, I usually, I always bring a book. I never read it, but I also, when I'm not bringing the book, I'll just do the Kindle. I have like a paper white Kindle look. My other suggestion to people is this remains of it, but I get, I get like a little plastic full of, so this is like right now it's just. Is that a saracha? And the saracha from Starbucks and some soy sauce and usually hot sauce. and then flaky salt.

Oh my gosh. Church up the little meals that they give you. That is so smart. The flaky salt can solve almost any. I just, it's in one of these little like aluminum containers. And I just put a shit ton of gold and diamond salt in there. Any,

yeah, any little packets that you can get from your favorite takeout spot. I just put them in a little baggy and keep that with me for the plane as well. Or just wherever you're going to go eat, you know. I, I love eating on airplanes. It's like, I don't mind it.

I'm, I love it. I'm like actively excited for the meals. Like, I don't care how bad they are. I'm like, you're currently like time traveling. I'm going across the globe and I'm being fed like a king. Well, you know, it's amazing. It makes you feel so good. It's probably like, would you like the meat or the veggie?

And I was like, I'm not. I'll take both. Yeah. Luckily, they never say, you want the fish you're like get the no i don't want skyfish unfortunately i don't do skyfish yeah uh that that that's there is a limit to my love yeah but like even the little breads they bring you come on so good my gosh the bread with the butter that's all i care about yeah butter is better that's what my grandfather would always say well and then also uh for people who

haven't been on an international flight it's there's no turbulence up there so it's just like, there's no, like, you're just vibe it. It's like you completely forget you're on a plane except for the noise. No, it's so, oh, and, um, oh, you got to go in like two minutes. I do. And, um, oh, another big one, compression socks. Because I'm, yes, I'm just horrified of

blood clots. So I try to get up every few hours just to walk around and hydrate, yeah. Oh, that, oh, that's the other one. Where's the little bit? I'll just show it to you later. But liquid IVs, because, you know, they bring you those water bottles all the time. So I'll get, like, a couple liquid IVs and then some of that, like, lime flavorant. They're a much smaller packet just to church up the water bottle a little bit.

You just like traveling with like a little, like, pantry. No, it fits in a, in a, in a sling bag. Brilliant. And all. So I got like, you know, the cable for the phone. Yep. Ear plugs. Yeah.

Yeah, all the little snacks and shit. Uh-huh. battery, whatever. Yeah, it all fits in the one sling bag. I love that. That it's, you have to, everybody has their own process. Oh, in a inflatable sleeping pillow. See, that's why I get window.

So I can just, I can't. I feel very claustrophobic window. Oh, I see in the same way that you're like, you know, the meals are great and stuff. It's like, it can get a little annoying. But again, on the international flights, it's a little easier to just like stretch out a lot of times and even the normal seats.

but I can just you know right right up against the wall and just conk out for at least a couple hours that's a superpower yeah and then it's glittudiator for three or whatever

how long that movie was I do the flight back from Spain I guess from Paris everyone was watching Gladiator too and I was just like it's and I would just it was like you could watch the wave because like someone at the front would start watching it and then the person behind him were like oh glutiator

and they would turn it on and you would just watch the screens like it's like watching stoplights all change you know in sequence it was so funny yeah um dude Kenny unfortunately I do have to go but yeah no worries what a pleasure I love talking here all right get to uh where we got to go but hi brother uh thank you so much and uh I'll be in touch sounds good I later Kenny wait about frame and references an owlbot production produced and edited by me Kenny McMillan If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so by going to frame and refpod.com and clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated, and as always, thanks for listening.