Frame & Reference Podcast - 208: "The Handmaid's Tale" DP Stuart Biddlecombe, BSC

Episode Date: September 11, 2025

In part one of yet ANOTHER fantastic two-parter, I'm joined by Stuart Biddlecombe, BSC to talk about his work on The Handmaid's Tale!Enjoy!► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠F&R Online ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Support F&R⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Watch on YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Produced by Kenny McMillan► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Hello, and welcome to this episode 208 of Frame and Reference. You're about to drop into a conversation between me, Kenny McMillan, and my guest, Stuart Bittlcombe, B.S.C. D.P. of The Handmaid's Tale. Enjoy. so this is great because you have it on your wall but every time i have a british cinematographer on i must talk about i know it's usually a joke but you've given up the plot i always go uh without checking i go so what was it like shooting doctor who and they always go because being british is like it's like if you live in new york and you're a dp you have to shoot law and order before you're considered and i feel like in the uk it's doctor who yeah very much i mean it's

kind of, I mean, I know Kate Reid said it and you're in a, in a, in a few weeks ago, it is very much kind of a rite of passage, kind of is from, if you kind of work in TV drama, nine times out of ten, you, you've gone up to Cardis and you shot a few episodes. And I

must admit, I mean, I love it. It's a great show. I mean, I'm such a fan of it. And I'm so very lucky to be able to kind of, you know, play a very, very small part of it. But, but yeah, it's great. I mean, and for what it is, you know, essentially is I mean I know it's changed now but when I was involved no it was a low budget

BBC drama and that was the charm that's why I loved it so much because we did everything kind of in camera we just kind of mucked around a bit and kind of did the very best we can but I loved it it was one of the best things I've ever done it was it was a joy and and lovely people if if anybody's listening goes to shooting cardiff you'll just have a glorious time everybody is is charming and just and also at top of their game as well and and they all do it as well so yeah It sits up there and kind of, I'm starting embarrassed by it. But, but yeah, it's a great show to do. It's, I mean, I've said it before, but it literally is like probably my favorite running series.

Yeah, yeah. And you shot with my favorite doctor. A piece of Capote. Yeah, because after the Matt Smith era, I was like, man, they like locked this guy in a box for thousands of years. He's already thousands of years old. Like, he's going to be grumpy. Yeah. And then they were like, we're going to get a grumpy guy.

It's like, I'm absolutely. I mean, I've been lucky enough to work with Peter on a couple of other jobs as well. Yeah, you did, what was the other, what was it? Did something called Devil's Hour? Devil's Hour. I love that show as well. Oh, good. I'm because of him, but yeah, that was a non-show.

Oh, great. Thank you. It means a lot. It's nice when people say, like, so I get no kind of anything for anybody about whether they like my work or not. It's very rare. But when people say they like it, that's good news. But, yeah, but Peter, although he's, you know, his on screen and a person is probably quite sweary and quite grumpy,

he is the most charming man. He is absolutely lovely. I shot a pilot for him. He called me up to, you know, is there any chance you might be free to see a pilot. And, of course, I don't know if people know, but he's an Oscar winner. You know, he shot a short film a few years back, and he won an Oscar for it. And he's an extraordinary director. but yeah to kind of work with him on Doctor Who and Devils Are

he's a dream you know he's a real genius and I did start I did an episode um called uh what was it called heaven sent and it's basically just a one man showing yes and he and he was just him on screen for however long it was I mean 48 minutes whatever it was and it was just amazing just watching this man perform I felt very lucky um I know she was talking about myself but he was just incredible

but he was just just it's kind of sometimes you kind of you sit back behind the monitors or behind the camera or whatever and you kind of look at it and go oh my shit this is amazing

I'm watching this man pull out on the most extraordinary performance and that was one of those occasions and yeah I did yeah and heaven said which was great than hell bent the next one wasn't quite well with Steve

but but nevertheless they were both great and just yeah i feel very lucky to be kind of you work and you see those performances i feel very lucky to be able to kind of witness them firsthand yeah i was literally heaven sent is my first note well there's like a few episodes that i think every like who you know you got your fucking angels yeah absolutely but but the sort of capsule episode of him because again the the age of the doctor has always been interesting to me because yeah the character always written is so youthful and still being able to kind of compartmentalize trauma to be there for whatever with three billion years or just a hunching diamond for

I know I know it's it's a brilliant piece of Stephen Moffitt rated and it's a it's a brilliant piece of writing and when you've got the two of them together when I first read it I when I first read it I was only given half the script because Stephen had actually hadn't finished it. So we only given it. And I just thought, what the fuck it else going on? I have generally no idea what's happening. And we just, and then it slowly kind of kind of came in, like day by day,

we got another couple of pages, another couple of pages here. And then it was just evolving into this most extraordinary piece of writing, which we couldn't believe without it. And when you read the script, if you ever get a task to read it, you're saying, how on earth do you start to shoot that? It's impossible. You cannot, how do you photograph? It's very, very difficult.

We had a great director, Rachel Tallulay, and our first, who I forgot his name, but he was amazing as well. And the three of us and Stephen as well, we just kind of, we kind of poured it out, kind of took a bit by bit, we kind of analyzed it, and then thinking, okay, how do we do it? And then we came out with, hopefully, a solution.

But it was one of the most collaborative, and most mind-bending few months of my life. Just trying to think how on earth do we put this bit of writing on screen. But yeah, I'm glad it's still got legs. It's one of the few episodes. I mean, I've done a few episodes, but that one, I always get people come up to me or email me or whatever. And even now, you know, we shot that, how long ago, it must be about 10 years ago now. I think it was.

I got married. It was. It's my anniversary this year. 10 year investments. And it was, I'm pretty sure it was 10 years ago. years ago. And even now, I, I, someone could be out, they're doing their thesis on, on Dr. Who, which I find extraordinary anyway. And then they said, could you, could you explain? And I watched it again a few, a few weeks ago. And I just sat down and I watched it on I play and I had my

skips and I just had, and I watched it again. And I thought, usually I hate my work. I hate watching it back. I really find it very, very difficult. But then, but for whatever reason, that one, when I watched it back, I thought, actually, that's not that bad. It's okay. I'm actually not a bad DP sometimes, but I thought that was okay. So yeah, it's great that that's still got legs and it still kind of, you know, resonates with, um, with kind of younger audiences, which is, um, yeah, it's just good. Well, and I mean, that that begets two questions, one of which being, how do you stay like, I don't know if motivated's the right word, but how do you know the ship's going in the right direction if we don't have pages? And then also because that set or whatever you want to

call it, that environment is so self-contained, you know, it's a few hallways and then, you know, some CG extension. So you only got a little bit of work. Did that make it easier? In a way, I mean, although Stephen, I mean, I say Stephen hadn't written it. I mean, he kind of was in his head. So he still said, look, yeah, he said, look, you don't need to. You know, so in the art department, you don't need to build, maybe a corridor, you know,

and good thing about Wales, you've got a lot of castles. So he just went out and we kind of, we spent, most of the most of the prep, We just went jogging around kind of South Wales, looking at castles, really. So although we kind of, you know, he didn't necessarily give a script, we still have the bones. We still roughly knew where it was going to.

We didn't know that we were going to finish off punching our way through this diamond wall. I mean, that was, that's another conversation about how on earth you photograph a diamond wall. And that was a whole other conversation. But it's, so yeah, so we say, although, yeah, we didn't have the scripts,

but he still, No, Stephen's very good at going, don't worry, it's fine. We'll, we'll work it out. So, but there's Rachel and I going, I don't know what we're going to do. I don't think we're going to do it. But no, he was super cool, and, yeah, we muddled so in the end. Well, because when I look at the show over the years, you know, obviously it started off very, I was able to introduce the production, or introduce, interview the production designer for the first season of the movie.

Really? Yeah. Oh, wow. And she was like, she was, and she, I can't remember what she was working on, but she was working on something really cool. So in the back, the conversation was kind of like, yeah, I mean, Rose was supposed to be like a millennial teen. So we just dressed her like in shitty, you know, clothes, you know, the diamond-encrusted, you know, jeans and stuff that we used to wear back in the day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was just so low budget that it looked like that.

And then even when I was talking to Stephen Pearson, he was like, yeah, watching the. those first few seasons, I was like, I cannot wait to make this show look better. And then, yeah, Stefan, I'm going to say, Stefan, he's an amazing DP. He was a year, he helped me a film school. So our parts have kind of crossed over there, but I always write his work. But when, when he says, I'm going to make it look better, you just know, okay, yeah, he's going to do it better. He did.

But that's kind of the charm for me of, of that show, was that it was, that it was, that it was, no, we did it. We did it for 20 pence. I mean, we didn't have much money. So we tried to do it as much of it in camera as possible. And I think that's, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I haven't really been up to speed with the latest one. And I'm sure it's great. I'm sure it's incredible.

Okay. Well, it's no, it's good. I think it's hurt by the shortness. You only get eight episodes. And so you don't really feel like you're sitting with this doctor. Okay. Interesting. Okay.

And I'll leave out some stuff for, if people haven't seen the end of it. But it does feel like, oh, there was a lot more to explore here. Like really good promises, but no real resolution. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah. I don't know if this team, I don't know what happened behind the scenes, you know. Yeah, I don't know.

I mean, it's great, though, shot real good. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. I mean, I do know a lot of the team you do it, the folks, but they're still the same team, I'll be honest. So although it's, you know, moving different direction, it's still very much a core group of people. So whenever I speak to them, I mean, of course, I'll pass across some different jobs. They will say, yeah, it's great.

You know, nothing's really changed from their point of view, apart from there, more money and perhaps a little more tight. But it's, yeah, I mean, I think kind of going back to what I said, it was that kind of, the walls did move. And, you know, whenever someone's slammed the door, it was that kind of charm, which I liked and doing it as much as in camera, that sort of interested me. I'll be honest, when it's on.

me started to do a little bit more kind of green screen during that time of screen screen I just kind of my heart kind of sank slightly and that's not that's not why I got into into TV and movies now I wanted to visit those of those locations as much as you can in the doctor who world but I wanted to go to castles I wanted to go to go to caves whatever I didn't want to go to a studio west London as lovely as they are and shoot a load of VR stuff

you know interacts or whatever it is just because that that that does not I know we've got to do it but that Tampa filmmaking doesn't interest me quite so much. Well, and it's kind of, I was thinking about this with music. I was watching an interview with the singer from Queens of the Sun Age, Josh Homie, and it seems that they're with him. And I feel like most artists, there is an element, you are giving, right? In music and television, you're giving an audience something.

But there still has to be something for you. And especially in film where it takes up so much of your life. Yeah. if you're not doing it, you know, if you're not able to go to the castles and you just go to the green screen, I feel like it makes the work suffer because you're not fulfilled.

The artist has to be fulfilled to give that back. 100%. Yeah, I think you hit the number head. That's exactly what it is. We, as filmmakers, we need to put something of ourselves onto screen and whatever that is, and it's important that we can connect with it at some point.

And whether it's just whether we connect with the script or you connect in the location, whatever, But it's important that we can put ourselves there. And then if you can't, because of whatever reason, because you're in green screen or because it's all, it's a technical exercise. You're doing their jobs. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, we all do them. I do them. And, and, and, but, but they're never good. I, they, they don't, they don't inspire me.

And so, so, so I think it's really important that, I mean, I'm, I guess, I mean, I'm very lucky that I can kind of pick and choose. But at the moment they kind of say, okay, so we're going to be doing, you know, a bit of greenish and visual effects, I kind of get, okay, I thought we were going to do it this way. And so if I have another, I have another think about it. And often it's, you know, it's fine, but, but it's, it's never on the list of things I want to do. I want to travel. I want to see these things, like I said, you know, that's what I do.

When I was, when I was sitting watching movies when I was a kid, are there, oh, wow, they're filmmaking. They're going to these places. That's what inspires me. I want to travel. And I'm very thankful that filming can kind of help do that. Yeah. West London.

Maybe not. To your point about, you know, the charm of Doctor Who is, I think it also fits with most sci-fi. I think people will reward an attempt over trying to do more than you can't. Like, I rewatched The Matrix recently. Oh, yeah. theaters. And that opening scene where Trinity, like, you know, runs around the wall, kicks the cops and does the whole thing. Like, I've been watching it on DVD or Blu-ray for the past

20 years. Yeah, yeah. But when you see it big, it's exactly what you're saying. You're like, oh, those walls are made out of plywood. Plywood. Like, the Nebuchadnezzar is an incredible set, but that opening set, and then the rooftops are just stolen from Dark City. They hadn't torn down Oh, really? So, wow. I watched, I did a double feature with Dark City and the Oh, no kidding. That is the exact same set. Like literally it looked like Dark City left one day and then the Matrix like snuck in.

It got that shot and then they tore it down. Interesting. Oh, really? I didn't know that. But I think that's it though. I think people are kind of willing to kind of go, okay. Yeah, it's not quite picture perfect. You know, it's not quite so glossy, but there's heart to it.

And I think people can consciously or subconsciously, they can see that. So, yeah, it's, um, and also when you're dealing with a, of a unrealistic scenario, I think it's more important to make this, the world feel realistic. Yeah. You know, if, if it's sci-fi and it's very, you know, like the movie Tomorrowland, I very much enjoy. I think it's charming, you know, I know a lot of people didn't enjoy it, but I did. George Clooney and I'm like, wee, but, you know, that had a lot of, and I think that was

Claudio shot that or something like yeah yeah yeah but shot on F55's come to find out um wow but uh that had a lot of CG buildings and stuff in it and it yeah it does kind I guess for tomorrow land it's fine because it's tomorrow land but at the same time if they were I wonder if if they had a maybe even painted facades instead of yeah real building if if the reaction may have been better yeah yeah for sure interesting yeah I those I mean There's so many ways you can do it. You'll be creative rather than kind of going down this slightly kind of shunkey CGI route.

You can be far more creative, I think, you know, than just kind of relying on that, you know, whether you kind of get, well, we can suggest that. I'm not saying anything new or groundbreaking, but that's the type of kind of filmmaking, which resonates with me. And I think with audience as well, I think nowadays people are so savvy.

that that they'll just go well yeah it looks great but there's no substance to it and i think that's kind of true a lot nowadays well there's this wonderful uh four part five part youtube series um that this guy had made called uh i can't remember what but ostensibly the the thesis is uh you don't like you don't dislike VFX. You don't like bad VFX. Because when it's good VFX, you can't tell. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, so no one will, no one will comment on it because they don't know it's there. And interesting. That can be something that is fulfilling is if you're in that collaborative mindset, they're like, okay, we're not, it's not like we're going to put that in later. You know, maybe they'll show you storyboards and be like, see, look, this is what and there's the there's the guy who's going to do it. Here we go. And then you, you're working with. the VFX team to make something cool. I think that's probably more fulfilled. I've clearly never worked in that environment.

But I think that's probably more fulfilling than, yeah, we'll put something there at the end. Yeah, very much. I mean, I think that's probably it as well, kind of knowing from the very start about what it's going to be. I mean, because kind of what, I'm talking about how mazes because it was the last thing I shot, but because we did so much kind of,

we didn't do so much, but we did do some very much, you know, planes, explaining all that kind of stuff. It was within the script. So we knew very much from the start with the case, that that's what we're going to do. So I think you're right. It was kind of, no, we brought those guys on very, very early. So you go, okay, this is what we want.

This is how we were very clear. Okay, this is what we want from you. Rather as going, oh, they'll just fill it in. You know, so everyone, everybody within the creative team knew exactly what we were going to get. And I think at any point we thought, well, okay, I don't think that's going to work. Then they go, okay, let's come up with another idea. Let's come up with another creative solution. for that. So you don't go down that route where people will just get pulled out of it because

they go, that's bad CGI. And nine times out of that, 10, they are amazing. The people who do the handmaic, are genuinely, they are incredible. But sometimes just go, okay, no, that's not going to work. Let's think of another way of doing it. And then, yeah, and 90s or 10, you come up with a better way of doing it because we are created people. And we kind of start, you know, we brainstorm and, you know, you come in with them, you know, like I said, a far bit of Do you find, so Handmaid's Tale been on for how many, it's 2017 to now? Yeah, so I came in 2018, so, and that was season three, so I guess 2016, I guess. It's one of those shows that, you know, like Game of Thrones kind of felt this way,

where it was like, oh, no, that's always been on. And then, and then they're like, oh, no, this is a serious finale. And you're like, wait, what do you mean, it ends? but how do you keep that energy up for so long? Like, how do you not get sort of complacent? I know that looks changes a lot. We should get into that as well,

but just like as a collaborative being, like how do you? I think it's just, I think probably it's two things. One, the performances are incredible. So when you just watch them, you're going to go, okay, well, I need to, I need to,

my game here. I need to, I can't. I can't be the one left behind. And also, the crew on all seasons I've worked on are incredible. So, and there are no point where we kind of go, oh,

this is just a two-hander, you know, we can figure that on the day. We never do that. We always try and achieve the very best we can. And I think it's just because, because we're working with, you with a bunch of mates.

And then that's kind of how I want to make, how I want to be a filmmaker. But it's presumptuous that sounds. But I just want to work with my friends. And then when you work with your friends, you just automatically, you just go, what is the best way we can we can photograph this? What can we do to make this script?

They're great already. Let's bring up another level. So I think it's just kind of working with a really kind of positive environment. I don't think there's no kind of, in a conscious way, I think, oh, we need to, you know, make an Emmy winning version of it, this time, whatever. I think we just try and do the very best we can. And, you know, I think, I think it, I think it shows, you know.

I think there's so much passion, so much loving it from so many people that that it shows. And, you know, you just need to kind of just turn up every day and it just happens, you know, you bring your A game every single day. Um, yeah, and I think if you, if you don't, if you feel very embarrassed, you know, they are dear, I must try harder. Well, it's, it's going back to that thing of me listening to the Josh Homie interview, the music thing. I think there is something in what you said about like, if you try really hard, if you're focused on an end goal. Yeah. We'll lose it. You know, one thing he said is, uh, uh, if you expect anything from music, you expect too much.

Yeah. Interesting. I've sat there kind of with that quote for a minute because I'm like, I feel like that's the same thing with making if you're like, I'm going to make something that's going to blow people's minds. You're like that's, you're going to lose it. It's that, you know, sand between your fingers thing. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. If you, if you collaborate, if you're making something that excites you,

even if you don't know where it's going to go. Yeah. I feel like that results in something that, you know, if you exist in the flow state versus the analytic state. And if you keep checking to see, am I doing this right? Am I doing this right? You know.

Yeah. And I, and I, I think that's right. You know, there's nothing more I can really add to that, really. But I think that's exactly right. You know, every single day, you know, you just kind of exist. And I hate to say it. I mean, this is no disrespect to my craft. But I find it quite easy because you are in, like I said,

in a bit of a flow state where everything comes to you. Everything, you go, I don't quite know how to do that. And then you just need to sit for, you know, 30 seconds and you go, oh, I know, I know, I don't sit. because everything there is working for you, everything is kind of focused on to try and capture that scene. So, so yeah, it's, you know, it's funny. It's not something I kind of think about that much, you know,

because it just kind of happens. Well, that's the, it's like playing tennis. You know, the idea comes to you and you hit it back. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I think the moment, you know, like you touched on,

the moment you start thinking about it, that's when it all goes belly up. Yeah. Because you've lost it. You've obviously lost it. And I think it takes time, for me, at least, anyway, I don't walk onto a show straight away and go, this is easy.

It is, you know, it's at least because that show's been set up for so long, you know, but not so long, but everyone, everyone knows, everyone knows each other. So you do not have to fight through that,

you know, that kind of slight embarrassing. Oh, hello, how'd you do? Would you mind awfully putting, putting this light up here? Or, you know, this, can we put a 35 on here, please? No, it's just like,

okay, 35, here, And it just happened. So it's, yeah, it's one of those, one of those few jobs where, where you are able to reach that flow state. Yeah, and then, you know, I'm always looking for that next one. But, yeah, that is a good example of that. Is there like an example on the handmade still that you can think of where you showed up and the scene or the shot wasn't speaking to you? And you had to like hard, like, the 30 second break didn't work. And you're like, oh, no, it's just wrong.

but yeah I mean yeah I mean it does happen I mean I'm not going to say that every super time I just nail it I'm just thinking it just happened to me the other day I was like and it was for a corporate gig but their offices were terrible and I'm sitting there normally

you just put the person next to the window and it's good but the walls were set up it wasn't a straight wall or anything it was like curved in and it just looked terrible and I sat there but you know you're dealing with business people they don't know what you're doing so I just had to kind of fight the bullet

I was like they're not going to care as long as it's live on Yeah, for sure. Stout of down, but I've been thinking about it for like two days. Like, if I had more than minutes. I know, right. I know. I mean, what I try and do, my, basically my prep is basically, okay, I'm going to not put myself in that position.

So, so I kind of go, okay, I don't want to shoot here because of those reasons you said, the light's not right or whatever, the architecture doesn't work. So, so I just trying to, you know, I just trying to gently steer myself away from it and generally steer, you know, directors or, you know, designers or whatever, just kind of go, okay, I don't think that's going to work. Let's try it. Let's try harder. I mean, that was always a bit of a mantra for me as well. Let's try harder. Let's try again. Let's come that from a different direction. So I don't often find myself in that position. And then when I do, I can, I can usually kind of glag it.

Well, you know, no one knows. Exactly. That's the other thing, too, is like, they didn't see what I didn't do. But that does remind me. I saw an interview with you where you had mentioned that, like, you'd shot low budget stuff, obviously we all do. But, and that taught you, like, what not to shoot. And I'm always fascinated by that idea. And I was wondering if you could kind of elaborate on that and maybe what, you know, low budget techniques, let's say, or thought processes that you had interviewed

through your professional careers. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I used to size of kind of shooting documentaries. much, much like yourself. And it's, and it kind of, it teaches you to go, okay, what, what three shots? It's always what three shots do you need to capture, to tell a, tell a story. What, you know, what is it going to be?

Is it, no, is it going to be, well, I shot a single, single to be the most kind of basic terms, or is it something else? And, and that kind of, that documentary, and also, I did a lot of, no, like you said, I did a lot of BBC soap stuff, something called doctors, which, when you look, recommend, it's a strange old show. The whole is critical. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, but this was a very kind of low budget daytime soap. But it was the best training ground I ever had.

You know, I did go to film school, but being able to shoot, knowing that, okay, you've got basically 20 minutes to shoot this scene, what are you going to do? Okay, like you said, you put them close to a window, you put the cameras on the shadow side, And that's basically, yeah, you kind of know that, okay, that kind of formula will get you out of, you know, a large proportion of situations you find yourself in. So, so, yeah, it's very clever. It's kind of like, okay, Windows practical sources, what are they? And that then, that, that's like the main, you know, the main kind of thought processes. And then you then kind of work from there.

So, yeah, it's kind of, yeah. Yeah, just windows, basically, yeah, we're wearing the windows, she'll be in the windows. I did, did, you mentioned film school, you went to film school kind of late, right, like after you'd been working in television. I did, yeah, so I did, so I kind of was working more in multi-camera studio stuff. So I was doing, you pre never heard of in the US, but I was doing things like blind date, which is like a, you know, a daft, you know, dating show. who wants to be millionaires I think you guys had so I was doing a lot of that stuff

and I distinctly remember doing a midshot standing behind these ped cameras you know that was just doing that's your focus yeah and I'm 20 years old is this it am I going to be doing this now

for the next kind of 50 years and I just said no I don't I loved it it was great but I just couldn't see myself doing it you know I'm a great believer in like if go if you're not if you're not enjoying something then then do something else

i know i have a way privilege that i can do that and then everyone can but but but i i i beg to say okay i i don't i don't want to i want to what i really want to do is i want to work in drama i want to shoot film and and and i and i stopped i just said okay i'm going to stop that i'm going to go back to film school and it was the best decision i ever made you know you get to work with Brian Tifano. We had Roger Deakings come up and do it a few days.

You know, we had such an amazing place and all the people, you know, Stefan Pearson was there, he was a year above me. Kay Reid, he was a year below me. So we're an amazing group of people. So yeah, I really made a conscious decision. Okay, yeah, I am slightly older now,

but I'm going to do it because I don't want to be doing this for, for another, like I said, another kind of 50 years. So I think it's important just to go, okay, stop. What do I want to do? And that's kind of like I figured. I figured that out quite, yes. Well, and I guess using those specific, you call them bed cameras.

Yeah. We just call them broadcast cameras over here. Right, okay, yeah, yeah. With the handlebars, you know. Yeah, yeah, I know, on a big pedestal type of things you keep out. Yeah, yeah. But I imagine the only, if you couldn't make, you know, drama work, you could, I suppose, pivot to sports. It's roughly the same.

You know, I did. I did, I'll be honest, I did a bit of that as well. I used to do a bit of Premier's football. So I've done all that a lot. And, you know, I love it. I'm still in contact with those people. And every so often, I, you know, I go, you know what? That sounds really lovely. Do you dinner? You rock up on a day, you shoot some sport, be your mates, and then you go home. It sounds lovely. Whereas me, it's like nine months of really intense kind of thought processes that those guys, they just take and build their jibs, well, they're pets, whatever, do it in a fuck or thing. Lucky bastards.

Well, and to your point about, like, wanting to work with your friends and have fun and stuff, I think that's actually, you know, you said that not everyone can do it, but I do a lot of corporate gigs with this guy who's a business consultant. And I'm not kidding, man, like 9.9 times out of 10, I'm shooting these testimonials, right? Right. And I've probably never done 15 now. And every single time they're like, oh yeah, you know, we were always at each other's throats and we couldn't break past, you know, X number of revenue. And then once we started implementing these systems, now everyone's doing a great time and we're making a shit ton of money. And it always comes down to hiring. It always comes down to hiring. It's always like the people are in the wrong seats usually. Sometimes like a creative person is not being creative or vice versa. And people are are too afraid to hurt someone's. feelings yeah someone is just not a fit but they're like sure but they're my buddy yeah you know and you don't want to work like that and yeah what's interesting to me is i've always had that in the back of my head but you know i'm working on i'm usually the one getting hired i'm not doing the hiring

yeah and uh but i ran in at sinegier i ran into chris ross and um jimmy lindsay were talking yeah yeah and um sammergurdy it was a very fun little trio yeah i was staying around but Chris and Jimmy were talking about how they they want to work together on something or in the future but they mentioned how they hire oftentimes the same crews and they found and they were just talking to each other I wasn't really like they weren't saying this for me but that the fact that they hire the same crews

and the fact that they have the same preference in crews was potentially more important than anything else and I would say, yeah, for sure. That's prop, you know, that fits right into that business consultant guys think. It's literally all about who you hire. And so I was wondering, how do you pick your crew?

And first thing, easy, easy question, are the assholes? And if they are, I don't invite them. You can't close, frankly. I mean, I'm being, sorry, slipping, but, but it's true. I mean, it's, you know, you spend, I spend more time with, you know, It's the same, you know, you've heard this a thousand times. Now, I spend more time with Clue than what I do with my wife and my daughter. And I need to, I need to enjoy their company, quite frankly.

I mean, and I think most people nowadays, you know, it's very rare do you come across a bad focus puller or bad grip or bad gasser. I think nowadays, you know, that the standard is so high. So generally, most people you work at all, they're going to be incredibly talented and incredibly professional, incredibly good at what they do. but for me it's like okay am i going to get on with them and it's you know it sounds it sounds slightly stupid but but it's it's not it's really i really need to get on with it i want to be

able to kind of you know have a little have a little joke you know not not necessarily no you know joking and kind of you know but just like i'd like to it is a very intense thing we do and i think being able to just you know just look at each other and something just a little roll of the eyes or a little bit you know that that didn't go very well is it you know just just a little time little thing and yeah, God, I'm with friends now. And it makes me a better cinematographer, I think, when I'm not having to kind of please the gaffer

or I'm having to work hard to make the gaffer like me or whatever. You know, it's just an extra thing I can't be dealing with. And it happens a lot. I mean, I'm going to start a job on Monday and with entirely new crew. And I know I can do the job. I'm pretty confident about that. But it's what is going to be the most difficult thing for me.

It's just meeting a whole bunch of people. I'm sure they're lovely and I'm sure I'll get on fine. But that's the biggest thing I find difficult nowadays. It's just meeting new people. Maybe I'm getting old, but it's like, okay, I've got to work hard again to try and build those relationships. And for me, it is quite exhausting. I find it went to easy, but it is exhausting and it's put so much myself in to do it.

That sometimes I want to go, oh, can I just have my own grip? Can I just have my own gasoline? But yeah, I think that's one of the most typical things. But, yeah, it's, you know, everyone wasn't woke with a mates, surely. Yeah. Well, and I just realized it was, it was Sam and Jimley. Okay. Yeah, Sam and Jim hired the same crews.

I sat there for a second and I was just trying to remember where they were standing. But that was, that was actually something. The only reason I'm name dropping so much is because at Sinegear, I ran into everybody. Nice. Yeah, yeah. But I ran into Jeff Krono went that we were talking about crewing. And he was saying back in the day, he used to be able to bring his crew. everywhere and now it's like

you're kind of getting assigned to it more or more I'm saying that's fascinating because wouldn't you like to your it's like going on a first date if you have to get a new you know you got you got to build up that shorthand with a new absolutely yeah yeah or they just have to trust you blindly which also might be an issue

yeah yeah absolutely but I think you're right though a lot of the time it is kind of they kind of they go through is a bit of a kind of you know the same I think so who would you like are like if possible like these people and they go well we've got this person lined up

well and for him he was saying specifically about travel you know when he's not yeah exactly he's not allowed to bring his team plays exactly yeah yeah I think that's exactly it you know I can't understand me I can't bring my UK crew to come to make no sense at all

but but it does I mean even kind of local you know I think going back to your kind of shooting Welsh Welsh stuff that they there is a well spend so you have to spend money there which i entirely agree with i think that's a great way of keeping money going and getting money local which is super important so so i get it i understand it

you know um but sometimes it's some you know i just know just tell me he you want me to get i'll make it work but but yeah it's not you know playing my games so whom do you like you know there's a different thing that i did want to this is a slight pivot but i was just thinking about the look of handmade's tail like it has a very strike it always has had a very striking look but the look evolves

yeah for sure and I was wondering kind of like how do you make those decisions because a lot of the look obviously is done in production design certainly there is some color grading it's yeah absolutely but yeah for sure

but like how does that look change do you make some of those changes after you know so many years like do you do it just because he's like, you know what, fresh season, let's try something. And also, like, how has technology changed? Like, 2017 to now, there's been, like, back then you probably might have been using just like still tungstons and HMI's and then we've got all the LEDs in the world.

Absolutely, yeah. I mean, kind of, in regards to kind of the process, I mean, it's kind of, we're still famously taken by the story. We don't just change it just because it's a new season. We should try and do something different. You know, there is an arc through, through, through, through, through, through the young, through how I sell. And I think that our photography is kind of reflects that.

I'm not going to kind of go and Gilead is this and Toronto's that. Everyone knows where if you were to the show, then you know what those looks are. But, but the show did shift. So, so you have to, you have to change. You have to kind of follow that. Follow, follow, follow that, that, that route. So, so we're all of, everything we did was very much kind of dictated by the story.

I mean, every kind of everything we did. And then it was important that we still kind of kept that, you know, in one Emmy, so we're not going to change it. It's still an amazing change. So we can't change it. That is also what people expect, you know, that this is, the handmaid's tail, look, is people know it. So if all of a sudden, the eyes went off in tangent, first thing first, the producer would say, Stuart, stop that now. And also the audience would recognize that something's different. And so I think it's very important that you don't change it too much

just because it is the Hammers teller. And you see has to keep kind of what has been established. And I think that I think that does that. But also, I think I'm a different cinematographer to Colin and to Nicola and to all the other DPs you've come in before. I think that's a lot next week. Yes, yeah, I know. I know she's coming into kind of way.

I don't know what's been cut together or whatever. But yeah, so we kind of, um, so so naturally we will like slightly. So, so suddenly it kind of evolves slightly just because we are different people. But hopefully, hopefully it's still kind of got that, you know, the very kind of essence. Hopefully kind of in the last, the last few episodes which I shot, which is a bit of a throwback to kind of season 1 and 2. Hopefully we kind of, then we threw it back to kind of that, that original kind of look, hopefully, but kind of, but technically, going to what you said about technical.

Then technically, camera-wise, we're using exactly the same cameras, exactly same. So we're still using the Alexa minis, which I think are an incredible camera, even though no reason to change. Absolutely. I mean, they are amazing, amazing cameras. So why do we change? Still with K-35s, TLS re-housed. So amazing lenses to say that.

TLS must love you for that. No, no. And years of the same. I don't know. You're going to catch your name into them. I know. I know. So, yeah, so, I mean, they're just incredible entities.

Lighting-wise, I mean, it hasn't changed. I mean, it's still kind of, I mean, also, I wasn't involved in season one and two, but seasons three, it was, it was kind of very much kind of mold beams, you know, is that kind of that, that very distinct look, a lot of, a lot of atmosphere, and mold beast through windows, and that has, there's nothing out there, maybe, maybe there is, but certainly nothing which I'm aware of, which can give you that same quality as mold beams, thanks to see mold beams.

So we still do use those in the very last scene we shot, or rather in season six, episode 10, the very last scene is shot with mold beans. You know, we've got C4 mold beams coming straight in, a bit of Atmos. It's kind of classic, classic haemaze, really. So we have, you know, we do kind of use a little bit more kind of LED stuff for it for close work. But that's only the sources out.

We still put it through our frames, put it through our very good of diffusion. That's still very much. That hasn't changed. There's still the same old bit of paper, which have used from the very start. So I think the only thing we've really changed is, I mean, maybe Tom McGathor would read this and go, we change loads. Literally everything changed. Exactly.

Why are you on about? You've got no clue whatsoever. But as far as I'm aware, it was very much just kind of like a bit nobody. The close stuff, you know, we kind of read more to more into LEDs as opposed to keen of flows, all that kind of stuff. Right. And would you make that choice for like heat reasons or just easier? Because normally you're feeling people when they want to get, you know, skin, not that that, that any, that any. specific person does this but a lot of times people love how tungsten hits the face you know yeah for

sure yeah absolutely yeah yeah for sure we never did that we never we did we did move away from them from kind of tungsten and kind of move into more um LED fixtures and nine terms of our 10 it was are they quick you know it still although it's a high budget you know we still we still have to move incredibly quickly so is it still tell we absolutely you know and we still got it we're still shooing our pay scouts it's still super hard so we still have to shoot quickly and is the lamp movable can we can we literally plug it in and just is it going to be plugged straight in and off we go and can we you know change your color temperature can change intensity all those usual things we've now kind of come very accustomed to and very grateful for can we do that you know so so that's kind of yeah that's kind of whatever do I choose nowadays is like how how quick can we use them also how good are the bottom end as well You know, when you start getting into the kind of like two, three, four, five percent, they don't get a little bit sketchy.

So we always end up sticks to Mendi in or whatever so that we can use it to kind of the middle of the range. So it's just little things like, is it easy to use? Yeah, because although I'm not using it, it still affects me about, you know, how long does it take? I don't want to be sitting there while the, you know, the actors are on set and there's someone kind of fiddling, you know, with around the best of the lab. I don't want to do that. So is it going to be liable? Is it going to re-quick? Yeah.

Yeah, that's why. need. It is funny how like all these companies, you know, Namlux or whoever Aperture come out with the XT, 26. It's like a, it's like a 50K and then you're like 1% 2%. You know?

Exactly. That's like, does it go that? Can we do 0.5%? Is that possible? Yeah. It's the same old thing. But I know, we never use, we never use a top end of missile. But no, I mean, it's a great thing, you know, and also just it needs that we don't have cables everywhere.

Now we can just kind of plug it straight in. So it's super quick. You know, I can go to Tom. I know I'd love to get a little highlight on this one. And literally within 30 seconds, it's up. And that, that for me is the biggest kind of game changer. Again, I'm not saying anything, you know, I'm sure many of the depes haven't said before. But just being able to go super quick, no one even knows.

You know, the directors, the directors can chat with the performers. I can do something super quick and no one even knows. And then that's what's really important for me is just kind of being as invisible as possible. It's not about me. as much as I were like it to be, it's not about the performance. It's about the actors. It's not about the camera gear. It's not about the lights. It's just making sure that I am

invisible as possible to kind of capture that. And if I'm fussing about with cables and other bits and bobs, then I don't think I'm doing my job correctly. Well, and I had heard in a separate interview you had done about how and this is something that I think a lot of DPs do talk about, but it's not about being

the flashiest or whatever. But, But, and I've talked about this before with other people, but it does occur to me. I was just sitting here going like, shit, I got to remake my reel. And if I shot Handmaid's Tale, I could put that in there and people would go, oh, there's Elizabeth Moss. Great. Even if it was just sort of a middling shot, it'd be like, that's fine. But when you have to put a reel together and you're coming up, you're trying to get better jobs, whatever, you do have to kind of go flashy in the for the reel, you know, and then that affects your work. Because you're like, shit.

I'm really hoping for that. But now I got to just shoot a wide. No, that's a good point. I mean, I remember. I mean, I remember going to shoot lighting stuff going. Okay, I'm going to, this is going to be my realist one. How can I make it as good? Can I make it as good as possible?

You know, it kind of goes, suddenly against my ethos about it. Yeah, but the thoughts do happen. Of course they do. You have to have the next job. Absolutely. No, 100%. And even now, even now, kind of go, yeah, that looks pretty cool.

That is great. That's definitely going to go my real. I mean, although if I had not, you're going to go, you know, that's actually really cool. That's really great. But yeah, I know, I get it. I know I did some, you know, all the music videos I used to do kind of back in the early 2000s, they were like, okay, what a bit of key has just come out. What can I use? It's trying to make it look different.

That actually kind of goes to what I was going to say was there used to be where I was heading with that, which was the music video. video air is kind of dead, you know, the 90s earlys to 2000s, that's where you could really experiment, try things. When you're on a show like handmade still for so long, where do you find time to, as David Lynch said, get dreamy with it or try new things or experiment? You know, how do you stop yourself from kind of staling out? Yeah, I feel very lucky in that. We are kind of, and this comes from Lizzie. This comes from, you know, the executive producer. They're going, this is a visual show.

So, so there's something you want to try out, do it. You know, so, so, so for example, there's, there's, um, uh, the end of episode, like six, I think it is. Um, Lizzie is essentially, she's in a closet. Is it, okay, that's the end of the show. Okay, how, how am I going to photograph? How can I make that interesting rather than just someone in a black box? So, so, so we're kind of given free reign to kind of go, okay, what can we, do to completely kind of make it the most kind of iconic shot and for me it's actually one of the

best shots i think i've done in the show and so you're kind of you're you're encouraged to go okay how what's the best way you can do this what is basically the most impressive way you can tell that story so so it comes from the very top so and i and i'm also very aware that this doesn't happen very often you don't you know you're not given that chance to go okay i'm going to do something a little a bit off weird here, but let's try it. And Lizzie was a great, you know, she always said, if it doesn't work, it doesn't make the show. And no one is none, and no is none the wiser.

You know, you bought it up, but it doesn't matter because it won't go out. So, so it really kind of came from the very top where you go, look, just try it, just push it as hard as you can. Just completely throw it all out and just think about, okay, what could we do? And I think that that's what I'm going to miss most about that show, it's just being able to have the opportunity was going, right, fuck it, let's just do something crazy. Let's do something

which is really unusual and you can always work for me, you can always scale it back, but what is the most, what is the most amazing version of what we can do and then you can kind of, you know, kind of change it after that. But so, yeah, so I'm not sure to answer the question, but we're allowed to do it.

So give that opportunity and then you kind of grab onto it both hands. Well, and also like for how dark the show is, I mean, like, totally. Okay. How do you thread the needle between making it look pretty, you know, good at it's like an enticing and not turning it into like a horror film?

Yeah. It's like two sides of this coin that it's very unique, not incredibly unique, but it is unique to the Handmaid's Tale. Yes, yeah, for sure. I mean, I think with kind of dark stuff, I get it. I think nowadays everyone's kind of aware of, you know, how dark do you make it? it how far can you go but but i i think a lot of the time you can get away with it as long as you can see two eyes if you can see the little pin in your eyeballs people can you know you can get

away with all sorts so so for me it's just yeah you can you can make it dark but but people know that is that what's interesting anyway as a sense of you do you want to see there or see the eyes unless you don't want you for story story no reasons but but generally if you're able just like even it's just like like this little part no you can you can get away away with all the short tomato and no one will say it's too dark because you've got two little pinks in the eyeballs so that that's what i try and do i don't always do it but that's what i try and that's kind of like a jail free card you know you can make it as dark as you're like as long as you've got two little things then most of the time you're fine well i'm more specific i that's also

something i've had to learn myself because these these little these little things have really come yeah absolutely they're great on that on the go you're you're just you're just, you just kind of put himself a camera. Yep. Yeah. And then, and sometimes you do get, I'm a big fan of Dan Winters, the photographer. Yeah. And it doesn't work for cinematography, really.

But I love his use of the like on camera, like ringlight flashes film. Yeah. It's so otherworldly. And I'm like, absolutely. I kind of want to just dial it in and make it look like that. Yeah. Way down. Way down.

That's the thing. It looks great, though. And I mean, if it was it, when I'm not so much for how much, but a lot of the shows I have to do, I do. You know, there is one mounted to the camera. And if I'm operating, I can just, you know, I'll just dial it in. It doesn't need you marks 1%. That's all you need.

You know, it's just a reflection. You know, it's not filling in anything. So, yeah, I see it. And that's the other great thing about, you know, back in the old days, it would have been day days and, you know, birdies and all sorts. They're running cables across set. It would have been an absolute nightmare. Didn't they used to make, like, little, were they like cold cathode lights

or were they just small keynotes that you could literally tape on the map box? Yeah. Were they, like, were they bar flies? Is that what they're called? I mean, it's going quite some time ago now. Right. But yeah,

that's right, all the little kind of car, cast the, I don't know you get car, I'm interior like it's like, oh God, here we go. And nothing ever worked.

Like, then he kind of he plugged his in. It was like, it was slicking away. Like, like, like God. But yeah,

I mean, I'm glad those days are over. They know, those car kits we used to have. But yeah, I mean, it's so, it's so easy nowadays,

it's just kind of going. I can't know. As long as you've got a strong idea of kind of what you want. Okay, I want to, I want a little pinning eyeballs. I want to have this big soft thing. It can be done very quickly, really straightforward. You've got a good guffin. But, you know, with the gear available now, it's very easy to do.

Yeah. I did want to circle back to it because you had said that in film school, you know, you're surrounded by all these great cinematographers. Yeah. I, once again, going back to Sinegear, it was two days ago. Well, it was the first time I didn't have to work it So I was just wandering around with a beer in my hand Just what I would find

And I found everybody So I was just on a YAP fest You know Nice, no great I know with the BSC show here Is it and it's not it's not about I mean it's always a bit about the gear It's just about going oh really

If you want the gear you go to NAB Yeah, oh okay fine okay If the the Cinegear Chris was talking about the BSC show it is more about friendship and you're outside at least it's yeah yeah yeah like he said you never been here as well yeah but i did want to you had mentioned that uh deacons had showed up to your film school he he's been touring his books a lot you know him and james and um every time i run into him i feel like he's i can't get a read on him you know right he's very he's very quiet

not quiet but just like i think i would be if i was him i would be overwhelmed by all these you know quote yeah yeah because you're running up on it me oh my god you're my favorite but uh i'd be remiss if if i didn't ask like do you remember anything that he spoke about or or uh taught you when he showed us to your comfortable i think that's probably just being kind and just being very open i don't i don't really remember kind of any kind of techniques or kind of you know kind of any particular methods of lighting but i just remember just being it's a very open open human being and then that's kind of across the board, you know, at the film school. Everyone was just very keen to kind of give over, give over knowledge.

And that's kind of what I didn't expect, really. Suddenly when I first joined the film ministry, and I still am in awe of all these incredible DPs. But you kind of think, okay, they're not going to want to talk to me. They're going to be, you know, thinking about movies or whatever. But nine times out of ten, they've all been the complete opposite. You know, everyone's been incredibly friendly, be open. And the moment you kind of engage with them, like you, and kind of show an interest

and something, then they go, oh, okay, yeah, so we can talk about this. So, so, so, so I think that's what pretty struck me the most. It was just, you know, just being a, you know, a good soul. And, you know, and I think we kind of, we need more of, well, we need more of in this industry, really, you know, just kind, you know, just kind people, you know, just so that we can, you know, we can all enjoy ourselves. I will say, like, everyone that I've run into who are people I admire have all been very kind. But, yeah, the BSC group in particular have been very great. Oh, that's good.

Yeah, I was BSC a couple of years ago and it's just been lovely. I mean, it really is. It's just everyone is so lovely. And Kate Reed, you know, he had on that she is the one who kind of, he kind of put me forward for it. And she, and then she came out to me and she said, you really should be BSC. You know, you should, you know, you should try. And I go, hey, okay, yeah, maybe I should.

But, no, it was just kind of that kindness and kind of that openness. And which I think the BSE does really well at, you know, of just kind of being inclusive and just, you know, I was involved in the, like a mentor scheme as well. And we did this kind of, we get assigned with kind of up and coming DPs, which I find weird, because I'm thankful as though I'm a tall and really suitable. But, but it's kind of so you kind of, you know, so they kind of encourage this real kind of sense of kind of growing as an industry, growing as a community, which I kind of like I enjoy. You know, doing what we do is sometimes very, very, very, very, you know, we're on our own all

the time. And we can, we don't get a chance to speak to other deeps, whereas the BSC kind of gives you the opportunity. Yeah. Is there, is there, is there, um, I know we're coming up on time, but is, is there like a example that you can think of where mentorship affected you in a positive way? I don't know, really. I mean, I think, I don't think so much kind of being a mentee or mentor, but I do, I do remember

having a conversation with with Brian to finder who, who was, you know, he shot transporting an incredible DP sadly no longer with us. But I just remember him with being, like, Stuart, he kind of pulled me to one side, and he said, like, you're trying to

hard. Sure. You know, you're trying. Just, just, just, kind of just feel it. Just kind of, you know, I do remember him saying, like, it isn't rocket science.

And it isn't. And, you know, there's people who try and make it a lot more difficult where it is, but really what we do, again, I don't want to be disrespectful of what we do,

but it is relatively straightforward. And I think, I think as long as you can, as long as you remember that, you know, it doesn't have to be complicated. And I think that was probably the biggest thing, which with Brian,

Brian kind of told me, you know, it doesn't have to be difficult. No, you're making it difficult. Well, to be fair, you know, and this is something I try to remind myself or like, I try to think of myself as an educator in various ways. Yes, so writing or teaching or dealing with line and stuff. But one thing that I think all the new technology that's come out has made it seem more complicated. Oh, I need the right lens.

I need the right camera. I need the right lights. And it's like, I've got these three books from Ansel Adams over here. Yeah. It's been the same since then. Absolutely. maybe there's a little bit of a technical difference but like in terms of what you're shooting

it's all absolutely the same for 120 years absolutely absolutely absolutely that's just reminding me something else Brian you say kind of distilled to us was that you know just just see just look out the window and just see how light falls on

how does it fall on faces what happens during the day when the same where's light coming from I've got windows up here light's coming that's my feel just look just observe and and I think I think that is really what's important as being cinematographer. Cameras and lighting

does not really interest me in all honesty about the new cameras. I'm afraid to say what interested me really is storytelling and how I can photograph something. Because you can photograph things on this. That's all you need. You don't need huge amounts of equipment.

But you can observe. I think that's what's important. I will say one technological tool, well two actually. have helped me observe. I suppose I agree. First, it started with me just wandering around with my little Fuji film, my X100. At first it was my phone, but then I got, you know, a nice little pocketable camera. And when I see good light, I take photo of it. Yeah. And then it was, I got, you know, a light meter and a color meter. And I would start just observing, you know, I'd see something cool and

especially the color meter, right? Like, yeah, I can't remember if I was talking about this, but I felt like an idiot when I discovered this. But yeah, uh, direct light and just outside of the beam to completely different color temperatures. Yeah. And if you have to create it, you know,

you have to include that. Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. That's amazing. That's really valid point. You know,

just go, yeah, walk around with your meters and just see, see what light does, you know. That's really wise. The final third thing that I've learned

is you take frames either from your camera or from movies you like, whatever. And in a program like resolve, it now has, the zone system ostensibly.

You know, false color based on stuff. So you can use that overlay and just technically, technically, there we go. See what lights doing. Because, you know, you can look. It's one thing you observe it and try to like eyeball it. But then if you go, oh, okay, skin is it key?

And then the hot spot is one stop. The background is two under. I can remake that. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I think the biggest, being able to just having your eyes open. And that doesn't have to be happening when you're upset.

Just when you go down the shops, when you go, put your door shop from school, it's just looking and just looking, just observing. And one day there'll be something. You'll be seeing something where light will fall through a window and it's raining. And you go, that's beautiful. I got to remember that because I'm going to use it at some point. So it's just keeping your eyes open. And I think sometimes it's very, very easy, particularly nowadays,

just to be entirely blink. that sometimes you need to kind of step back and go, oh, okay, yeah, okay, I'm, you know, just, just observing, you know, I think it's, you know, such an important thing we do as some jobs. Yeah, well, and if you observe, and this is something a lot of, not every deep peak, but I think some of my favorites have mentioned is there are so many helicopters outside of my house. That's not what they mentioned, but right now they're getting. Okay, fine, okay. I'm mildly, it's fine. I live next to an airport, so they, you know, okay. Um, but the, uh, thing that I've started applying to my own work is the idea that light needs to fight to get to the set. If everything is just a bare source, or maybe even just a, you know, one thing of diffusion, that's not how light works. Right? When you're observing light, light doesn't just appear in the room. It's got to go fight and get there. So if like you can implement that, I find that doesn't make my work better.

Oh, that can be just putting the light outside the window. Yeah, sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, like that. It needs to fight its way through. Yeah, I like that a lot. That's really interesting. I remember, I think, I think this is one, again, one of Brian's techniques.

He used to, like, have a bag full of, like, old bits of cloth, bits of muslin, all sorts of rubbish. And he just said, yeah, I just got, ends off, and I just pin it to the lamps. And it doesn't really do it, but it just creates texture, you know. And it's kind of, that reminds me that fighting through. had something like really thick bits of you know god knows what it was but but in a tar stained bits of cloth but it really had to fight his way through but it had it did something something which

was so much more interesting and so much more kind of nuanced than just kind of you know having a bit of diffusion a bit of 216 whatever you know it's just kind of having having something you just have in your bag all the tire and just pin it to it and look really it's beautiful yeah um we are over time so unfortunately I must let you go but you did mention earlier about shooting a pilot for Capaldi I was wondering what did you learn from

being under him instead of next to him that he's even better to action than me as an actor he's just amazing he's amazing I know yeah exactly exactly yeah he's just amazing he's just you know

You know, and he called me out, you know, a few days later and goes, no, it's really, thank you. No, really. He's just one of those lovely people. You know, you feel very lucky to kind of, to find those people. And that's always what I'm on the lookout for is kind of, you know, directors in particular, you know, who you can connect with him way. And, you know, he was one of them. I mean, he's gone up and done, you know, he's done other things since. But, but, but yeah, it's just kind of, he's just lovely.

Have you, have you seen the thick of it? Have you seen it? Yeah, yeah. I mean, after Doctor Who, I pretty much watched his entire work. I was like, I love this guy. I hadn't heard of him until that, until Doctor Who. I really, yeah, he's quite, I mean, he's a little bit swarie. But he is, but yeah, he's just lovely.

And he's so, yeah, it just kind of easy going. Yeah, if you're listening, Peter, can you? Yeah. If he's listening, I want to have him on the show. I've actually, I've legitimately wanted to do this for a while, which is, uh, actors who became directors. Oh, really? Because, like, I think Affleck's a good example.

That's a great idea. Capaldi. Lizzie Moss. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think that'd be a sick month. I think that's such a great idea because I think some of the best,

sorry, but some of the best directors of, if you're out of time, we could be here for the next time of our shit, then they'll yell at me. I'm, I'm, the best directors are. ever work with, on the whole, there have been ones who have been acts as well. Just the way that they can communicate with the performers, the way they communicate with me.

And also it's also quite nice that they go, Stuart, I don't quite know how to achieve this, know how do we do it. And so it's very much kind of an open conversation. So, yeah, I think we should definitely do that. And by far, some of the best people of our words, directors who you've done people actors. Well, if you can get me Capaldi and Lizzie Moss,

I bet I can convince, you know, maybe Affleck, because I know a few people that know him. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, I need to get Angelina Jolie will probably tap off the hardest to get a hold of. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, well, let's say in touch, because you never know, you never know, I can send me email, you never know, oh, yeah, man, I appreciate it. Yeah, yeah. Well, enjoy the, what time is it over there?

I try to be cognizant of this. That's a 10 past 8. Oh, it's all right. I'll let you get to your evening, though. I'm going to find some much. But it was wonderful talking to you, man. Please do. You too, Kenny.

Yeah, thank you, much. Phenomenal. Like, you don't. Thanks, Mick. I need to blow smoke up your assets. You know, I'm good. I'm bad. I'm bad. Well, enjoy.

Enjoy speaking to Nicola. Yeah. Please stay in touch. Take care. Enjoy your evening. Thanks, Kenny. I'll keep talking. Good stuff.

Thanks, man. It's a pleasure. Good stuff. See, soon. Frame and Reference is an Albot production, produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so by going to frame and refpod.com

and clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated. And as always, thanks for listening. Thank you.