Frame & Reference Podcast - 210: "Sew Torn" Cinematographer Sebastian Klinger

Episode Date: September 18, 2025

This week we have the fantastic Sebastian Klinger on the program to talk all about his film Sew Torn!Enjoy!► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠F&R Online ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠��⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Support F&R⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Watch on YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Produced by Kenny McMillan► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Hello, and welcome to this, episode 210 of Frame and Reference. You're about to drop into a conversation between me, Kenny McMillan, and my guest, Sebastian Klinger, D.P. of SoTorn. Enjoy. Yeah, you do a lot of color work, right? Like colored VFX stuff? You mean color work? Yeah, yeah, because you do like you're a colorist and a VFX person too, right? I am. I did color grade some of my projects.

I don't do it as much. But in fact, I did, I do have a background in visual effects. In that since I'm very little, I didn't only like film stuff. I also edited and then enhance the imagery with visual effect. So that's always been accompanying me. I think it actually goes back to cinematography as well because I on set, I kind of see what is possible after. I'm my own visual effect supervisor in a way.

And it kind of helps for some sets to be more efficient and to offer something to a client that he wasn't aware of where you could replace the sky or, do something else. So it's, I think it's a good, a good side knowledge to have as a cinematographer. Yeah. It's certainly for like, uh, all the like corporate or like smaller commercials I do, because I'll end up being the editor for them. That's, that's a good skill to have to like make, you know, that's how you can stretch your budget further. Because like just the problem that I've run into recently is I have to get out of the habit of filming thinking that I will be able to

color or edit it myself yeah because handing handing that footage off to someone else and then going like oh fuck I need to give them notes on like oh you know when this was intended to be windowed down and uh delete this stand and whatever whatever you know yeah exactly easy to hire budget but it's it's a struggle I think a lot of cinematographers face that they they would like to have control but obviously it's not possible in in the majority of projects and you just got a I don't know let it go

or make a deal to be part of it as well. And I think both is good to be able to do. Yeah. I was looking through your work and it does seem like you kind of had the sort of, I guess, filmmakers dream. I feel like everyone who gets into film always goes, doesn't know like what the various jobs are or anything. They're just like, I'm going to make movies.

It's very nebulous. But like looking at the stuff you've done, you kind of just did that. I'm the DP here, the VFX supervisor here, the director. the producer, you know, he just kind of, but actually made a career of it. Yeah. Yeah, I fulfilled a lot of roles there in the beginning. I think I tried to specifically do cinematography now and also producing, which got my interested in was lately too with a couple of projects. But it's always fun to shoot stuff and to be around people and create things. That's my ultimate goal, yeah. I don't know if I could, uh,

handle producing that feels too stressful yeah no it is fun and i i think i i'd like to produce because i know i'm going to be the dp as well so i've never actually produced a film that i didn't do the cinematography on um and i think then it's like a different thing because when you do all the the pre-production and the and the preparations and scheduling i've done that and um location scouting everything, you also look at it through the lens of a cinematographer, knowing that you'll be on the set that day, and you'll have the best lighting because you scheduled it before yourself. I think it's a nice thing to do on the side, but only for the projects that I DP do. Yeah. Well, and also probably, because like even so torn, like, doesn't feel that big. Like,

It's a big film, but it's not like that, you know, I feel like producing something like that is far more manageable than if you were going to try to do like, I don't know. Have you done like a, I don't know, commercial? No, you did a commercial for like Microsoft, right? I was going to say a big company. I was going to name one. And then I was like, there was a Microsoft one. I've done a couple of big brands like McDonald's, but those were always kind of tight cruise.

I've never worked on a film set with like a hundred plus people to be honest like so Torin is my biggest project so far and we had around like 25 people on set every day and I think it was a great size for what it was because we were in that secluded location we all slept in the same place we ate together and then you get really this feeling

of like a classmates just going on a trip And I think with like two or three hundred people, you start to lose that, I think. I've never experienced it. So producing something of the size of Sotorn was like a huge, like a fantastic experience because of its size, I think. Yeah. I've interviewed a few people who have shot films about that, you know, with that like crew sizes up. And it does seem to be that similar like, like you just said, we all, we slept in the same place. We all hung out.

A lot of times it'll be like we slept in the place we were filming. So you don't even have to tear down the equipment. They're all walkaways, you know, and it just, I feel like that's a nice way to work. Yeah. Yeah, I think so too, yeah. And yeah, I think I might want to try the other thing too. I mean, I don't know where my career is bringing me. But for right now, the So Torne project felt like the right thing to do.

And as you said, it was manageable to do both, producing and cinematography. And it might be that it might be the case in a bigger project. It's not possible anymore to do both. And then I will probably just do cinematography because that's like my, my ultimate passion. Yeah. What got you kind of started? Like, what were your influences growing up as a like, he influences? Yeah.

Well, my first influence was my dad, I think, because he owned a camera. And then I got to be around that camera since I'm 11 years old. And so we always shot these projects as a family and friends from school. like influenced by like Indiana Jones and Star Wars like the big Hollywood blockbusters at that time and we kind of recreated them in our garden and then we would do camping trips and do that in the forest and I think by studying it later on in Switzerland I really felt like this passion of mind that kept growing I was able to turn it into a profession and make a living out of it And so I always

I mean I followed the big DPs that are around like Emma Lubezky when he won three Oscars in a row that was like just mind-blowing and just recently I I yeah and also for So Thorne there was a big influence actually for children of men that that was the approach for this project but yeah I just love seeing all these DPs work

can go to the theater and watch all that. Yeah, dude, I remember when Children of Men came out. That was, that was a big deal. There's like a handful of movies that I feel like the cinematography got past, you know, a broke out of the bubble of like movie nerds. Like I feel like Children of Men was one, 300 was one, obviously the Matrix. I'm trying to think about other ones that like were so visually because Children of Men isn't even really that like

I don't want to say because if you say the matrix like that's a whole extravagant and children of men is pretty grounded but it's still everyone was like did you see they shot the thing one take you know like one take no one had ever seen that

yeah yeah and maybe to some extent also the the work of Roger Deacons that he did with the Coen brothers like Fargo and actually no country world man was also a big influence and I think yeah Fargo maybe even more

I think also like you said burst the bubble in terms of people talking about it visually as well yeah it was just it was a totally different approach than children of men but I think equally as grounded in the storytelling and

it just made these two people I guess the biggest DPs alive at that time and I think they influenced me a lot probably did you did you come to it from like a because I feel like every D.P. kind of you either come from it from like a I like for instance I should have gotten into props I found I discovered way late in life like when I was like 30 that that uh I wanted to

make the lightsaber not film the lightsaber if that makes any sense you know but I just wanted the idea of filming it was the only thing I could think of and it seemed like a technical skill like I knew expose you know I was a photographer when I was younger and I was like oh I don't know you know, especially before digital came out, I was like, I don't think people know how to shoot film. I do. And now, of course, everyone's fucking stupid. Everyone's a DP now. But did you come from it from like that type of technical angle?

Or was it more like a lighting thing or were compositions speaking to you? I think, and that's an interesting question. I think I actually came more from a directing angle. because for some years I directed stuff like short films and also commercials like when there was like no agency attached I would just be directing and I think that really helped me in like

communicating with people and and like shaping the narrative and I think because I fulfilled a lot of different roles in the beginning like I edited as well those projects I really got this overall sense of the storytelling of the project and really like bring it down to to what's what's what's the essentials and and then cinematography kind of emerged as the tool that you're able to communicate a lot with and I think at

that time I found out that I'm I'm better with with a camera in my hand and let someone else talk to the actors rather than do it myself as well but having done it earlier I think helped me and technically I'm well and I mean in the tech from the technological aspects of filmmaking um I'm actually not drawn towards as other DPs like I know my way around the technological technological side and like the aspects of a camera but whenever like I'm in a group of DPs and and we would nerd about the newest gear coming out I'm like the quietest one because I'm actually more coming from the storytelling side and not the technical aspects of it.

But I use it as a tool. And so I don't know what, well, I kind of know what came out lately. But it's not that I need to buy everything that's new. I'd rather try to like get more knowledge about how can I, with my existing gear or like with other tools, make my stories better rather than just buy the newest camera and where I'm right well and now I mean I've said this a billion times

but like every camera since 2016 like okay the only time you would need to get a new camera is if there was some you know if your existing camera didn't have built in NDs I would be like that's probably something

you should invest in them I just bought an F55 oh because I was I was shooting, I'm the second unit on this docu series and I was shooting, I was renting an FX6 and they weren't necessarily thrilled with it. And I was like, well, I just got a really good deal on an F55 should I use that? And they're like, yes, absolutely use that. And that thing's from 2012. Yeah, it's like way old tech, but it looks big, right? So those are clients that like they, for them it's important that it looks big to set up. And no, no, it has nothing to do with

the body. It's literally the image. It was, it was just that the first unit is shooting them. and so the F-55 is like the precursor to the Venice and they and I can shoot the 16-bit raw yeah on the F-55 and so yeah the camera itself

they didn't give a shit but it was they they just wanted to keep it a Sony project and the FX6 which I know you shot this on which I would have never guessed the FX6 they just did

it looked too different from the Venice and I guess the F-55 doesn't yeah yeah but I got to test the Burrano that Sony brought out at Camry Marsh in Poland. I think that's probably meant to be

like as a B cam if the Venice is DA cam. So maybe there's an opportunity for you to try it out as well. So my friend Jake Bain bought one. My friend Valentina has one too. But me and Jake are going to do a

shootout between my C500 Mark 2 my F-55, his barano, and then maybe I'm going to probably go to the rental house and get an Alexa as well just like an Alexa classic or a mini or whatever just to see because it's interesting I think the Burano I haven't used it yet so it obviously looks great but I think the lineage of the Burano is more like it you know in like A7 FX9 FX6 Burano or however you want to that was the release schedule but however you want to do that and then And the F-55, it went F-65, F-55, Venice. So I'm wondering if that, you know, I don't know how Sony, I'd never talk to Sony about anything.

So I don't know how they thought about those two things. But I agree that it seems like the Barano should be the B-CAM to the Venice. But I don't know, I don't know. So we're going to test it. Yeah, that's good. I'm excited to see that shootout. Yeah. They're nice people at Sony, actually.

they wrote an article about the film because as you said that the so Torin was shot on FX6 and it's not very common I think to use it for feature films and so I pastored them for around a year to write something like write a story about them and they finally did and they're really nice people at Sony so I'm inclined to use the Burano on a next feature project just because I love like the Sony

the whole cosmos of Sony gear and how they play together and I think the Burano fits quite well into it and it's like I think for it would be a step up from the FX6 oh for sure I'm also like

it might sound that I I've never shot with like an Alexa or something I did I'm just whenever the project allows I do like smaller camera bodies because then I'm more agile and more I'm faster I can do more handheld

the whole day for like a month and for so torn that proved very critical to get all the shots we needed and to really feel this like naturalistic approach that we had based on the short film that we also shot yeah and so that FX6 actually

proved the perfect camera for that well and so that that's a good point about like between the F55 and like the Burano or the FX6 or anything is like no auto focus in the F55 slower menus no no stabilization you know it's it's not i mean it is a documentary camera technically but

more like a tv camera whereas exactly like you said like fx6 barano fx9 are so easy to just run with it and i loved in the i was looking at your instagram the behind the scenes photos you have the microphone you got a shotgun mic on the it's just so out of character for a feature film to be shot like, you know, like a short film or whatever. Yeah, it looks more like a documentary. And my sound guy just put one on and I like, yeah, whatever.

It didn't bother me at all. And maybe you've noticed in the picture also that there was like no focus motor on it. Yeah, you're shooting on a Gmaster, right? The Zoom? Yeah, exactly. Just that one lens. No, we had a couple of that.

line up um the 24 to 70 was like the main lens because you can cover everything with that and the 16 to 35 we used for like a couple of white shots and like some running around and then you get this like crazy in in a tunnel vision feeling and like a zoom lens for for like really close up of faces but yeah these zoom lenses allowed me to to never well to almost never swap lenses and to not have a a focus puller. Just not a focus? Yeah, autofocus and I pulled myself. I really grew up pulling my own focus.

So I was really used to it and it felt right for this project to not have a focus puller. I did have an AC helping with everything, which was great. But the focus I did myself. Well, and I will say, like I only used the FX6, like I said for this docu-series, but they were all sit down interviews. So it was just like, you know, I wasn't really using it. I just didn't record. But the other day I shot something with my buddy, Joey Fumeli. And I was following him and this guy around the ASC clubhouse talking about his name's, um, uh, Stephen Gainer. He's the

ASC, um, librarian. And he was showing us like the history of cameras. And, uh, so that was the first time that I'd actually use the FX6. And I will say the like, poke to focus. My C500 has it. And it's like fine C70 has it. It's fine. But I will say like the tap to focus on the NFX6 was really nice and especially being able to just go manual and have it disengage the auto focus immediately. It's very nice. Yeah. Yeah. I think and maybe you have to tell me if we're talking about too much about autofocus on Sony, but what is nice is when when people turn their back towards the camera, it's rather difficult for the autofocus to get it right. because it doesn't have a face to register.

So what I would do is have it manual when the person has their back to the camera and then as soon as they turn around I would like flip on the auto focus and it does it instantly and flawlessly and then and maybe like flip it back to manual if the person like leaves the frame or something. Yeah.

So it's like really integrated and really cleverly designed I think and it worked great on this project. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so sort of storytelling creatively, how did you, you know, a lot of people talk about using prime lenses because it's a creative constraint that helps. You know, if you have every option under the sun, you just get decision paralysis and, you know, so you're shooting a zoom the whole time. How did you decide what focal lengths to go with? Did you just sit there and kind of wing it until the composition looked right? Or like, what was your thought process there? So Freddie MacDonald and me, the director and me, we would shot list the entire film, right? So we had everything really planned out and we knew what shots we wanted to get. And I think in the shot list, I think we marked like what approximate focal length we were imagining the shot to be, like if it's like a 50 or like a 35 or 24. And then I think on set, we would probably try out that first or like in that range.

And then if I saw, like, oh, yeah, in a 30, it would look better than a 35. I would just do that. And I think limiting myself with a prime didn't cross my mind. I don't think I would benefit from it because I don't tend to have like decision paralysis. Yeah. On the other hand, I think it allows me to be more flexible and get a better shot because I have, the freedom to, to zoom in and out. And the other thing that really helped with this is to be super fast.

Like, as you maybe saw in the film or in the trailer, a lot of the stuff that happens in the film is not only happening up here in the faces, but also down here on the hands because there's a lot of thread involved and needles. Way more than I thought, even though the movie is called So Torn and it's about a seamstress. There's a lot of thread play in the film. Yes. so that it has like a very physical aspect to it the whole film and and we needed to get all these shots on the threads and the needles and the hands and so we needed to be super

fast every day and we wouldn't have gotten that with primes um but instead like we would get insert after insert on on the hands like the actors really they learned how to handle these threads because those those were like kind of real thread rigs that that Freddie and his dad designed, they both wrote the script together. And they would, they would, like, design it at their house and then the actors would learn it. And so they all did it for real. And so I just pointed my camera there and they did all the magic. And I think that also helped to have the zooms.

Yeah. It's spined. Well, yeah, because I saw in an interview, he was talking about the interviewer, I think it was variety or Hollywood reporter or whoever, was like, how realistic are some of these contraptions and he was like no we made them we you know we technically tested it out they technically could happen yeah yeah yeah the dad fred macdonald the dad of of freddie um he even told one story that he would as a child he used a needle and a piece of paper to build a dart gun that he would then blow around the classroom and and shoot at some people i think or like kids um i think it was

quite dangerous actually and then the actress also showed around her her family's home and would scare her whole family but these these all worked yeah these weeks they're crazy i've actually done back in the elementary school me and my friends would cut the tips you'd get like a mechanical pencil and uh we'd cut the the um the reservoir for the lead a little short and then we'd take a rubber band put a pin in the back of the rubber band so you had like a pinball kind of thing and then we put bea-bees in it and, like, shoot bea-bees at each other. Oh, shit. And then we started getting, what are they called, like the sewing, not the sewing needle,

but like the one with a little ball on the end to, like, hold things in place. Then we'd start loading those in and shooting them at each other. And that's when the teachers got involved. Yeah. The principal was very proud of us for engineering it, but not happy that we were shooting fucking needles at each other from across. And so you stopped eventually. Yeah, so we had to stop, but only at school.

You're in a unique position that I did want to talk about, which is you shot the short and the feature, and they're, at least for that inciting incident, remarkably similar. So I was one, and they're like, what, five years apart that you shun? Exactly. So what, like, walk me through shooting the first one, the first one, the, the, the, short film and like you know the challenges you faced and all that and then over the five years what you learn to apply to the feature yeah um so the short film so torren was actually freddie's application film for afi and we we shot a bunch of short films in switzerland he's half swiss half american so when he was in switzerland we would shoot short films and so torn was his

application film with the the premise a change of heart that he needed to revolve a story around and so he wrote So Thorne and because we worked on all his previous short films he just felt natural to collaborate again we really work well together like we are also great friends now

and so we and in our shooting style we didn't have a lot of resources like we were a crew of like four people I think and we needed to get it done on one day only in the Swiss Alps and I would location scout that

road that the whole short film takes place on and and then we would shoot it on one day in November of 2019 and yeah it was just very like also because we shot listed the whole short we knew exactly what shots we needed to tell the story but it was obviously like a lot of stress because it's like one day for for an entire short film is not a lot and and in the steep valleys of Swiss mountains like the sun is behind the next mountain like pretty pretty fast and you only have and in a especially in November you only have like a limited time of of daylight um but it all worked out and then uh he he got into AFI thanks to the short film um as like the youngest director ever accepted which is great um and then i think through AFI

he kind of um learned that that making a feature out of the short film might be a good idea. Also, Joel Cohen told him that they got to meet for coffee and Joel liked the short film and he told him guys make a feature out of this. This is great because they did the same for Blood Simple or out of like this concept trailer. And also they told him to do it like the independent way. So to get the funds independently, not to go to a big studio or anything. And then that's when he approached me again. to tell me are you in for a feature we go back to Switzerland to the same valley to the same road but we expand the narrative to to way more obviously um to to like a 95 minute narrative and

I was hooked immediately there was actually a different version of the script um earlier on that was like linear um it was still the same inciting incident that that happens in the feature that happened in the short but then they the Freddy and Fred the writers they kind of found this new way of telling the story

not linearly but but with like three separate stories that all revolve around the moment of decision making that Barbara the protagonist faces at this crime scene on the road which is essentially what happens

in the short film and in the feature we just explore two more decisions and the repercussions of what happens if she does that. And I think in between the short and the feature, I obviously was shooting stuff in Switzerland, some commercials, but also short films, and really learning to hone in my craft as well. And Freddie attended AFI was really becoming like a great director. and then coming together again after these five years was so much fun and we immediately like felt like this was like just five years ago we would just pick it up where we left off and yeah this time we had obviously more resources at hand which was nice and my big goal or

our big goal was to make the feature better than the short because as you said the short film is in itself is in the feature like the six minute of the short film is also in the feature just I hope shot way better than the short because we had I mean I gotta give you credit like obviously it does look better at the feature but the short doesn't look that bad

like even in comparison the short looks you can tell it's you can't even really tell that it's like it's a very well shot although I did hear that technically you had to shoot it on an iPhone so you had strapped a phone to the top of the A7 so you could get them most.

Yes, exactly. So I had my A7-3 at that time and then we would like mount the iPhone right on top of it, right on top of it. And we wouldn't even look at the iPhone version because we were like, we thought like, yeah, let's get the Sony one out. And then surprisingly,

Freddie took the iPhone version for the, for his application to AFI. From the interview I saw, he said it was a requirement that he had to submit the iPhone version to AFI. They wouldn't take the Sony one. That is true, yeah, yeah.

But luckily, we didn't just shoot it with an iPhone, but we had the Sony. And I think, yeah, we gave equally a focus on both of those. I think more on the Sony, to be honest. I would.

Because we knew, after AFI, it just submitted it as an application, but the one that it's being blasted out into the world will be the Sony one. And we're kind of glad that we did because it got picked up by searchlight and screened in theaters in the US.

And people, to my surprising, people thought it wasn't a shot on Alexa or something. So I'm, yeah, I'm kind of happy how it turned out, but still, I thought there could be way, there could be

improvement, obviously. And that's what I aimed for in the feature to make it better. Yeah, we got to figure out. I want to see the iPhone version. But yeah, like the locked away versions of like metropolis or something. Right, right, right.

Rumors that go around. Yeah. So what were you doing? Like, what were some of those things you improved on going into the, specifically with that, you know, sort of inciting incident scene? Like, what were some of the things? you were able to do in the future that you maybe would have liked to do for the short,

but like lighting differences, maybe choices that you were like after five years like, all right, let's not do that. Let's do this kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, a lot of that from learning from having shot the short film. And also I think having a bigger crew really helped because I had a Gaffer and electrician onset with like diffusion boards and whatnot to shape the light that I didn't have on a short film. And we had. had a professional makeup person who would do like wounds on the hand and prosthetics that we also didn't have on the short film. And I think all that adds to making it look better. I think we also got lucky with the weather because we shot two months before the short. I mean, we shot it in

September and the other one was in November. And that's really the time. September is the perfect time to shoot in Switzerland, by the way, because it's just like fantastic how it looks in the mountains with the leaves turning orange and then and then they fall in october and in november everything looks like very sad right depressed skyfall and we had like a more like a full fuller surroundings and like more like this foresty feeling the sun was higher up and we would get like some nice lens flares and also logistically we were able to block the road and that we didn't do on a short film. You just laid those guys out. Yeah.

Hope no cars come. Well, no, they would come and we would let them pass slowly, but the guys would lie on the ground and not move because we couldn't like, like... No for continuity. Yeah, for the time,

or the time to, for them to get up and then lie down again and then makeup needs to be applied again. And so this really helped to have like a detour for the traffic to pass. There was only like a couple of times where like big trucks needed to pass through anyway and and we kind of manage those but but it helped to have this crew to have the road blocked and and everything to really

focus on on getting the best image on the short film we like us as like three or four people we had to think on on all that too and then now with like 25 people um i could really focus on cinematography yeah what how how long was the shooting schedule and we had about around

26 days I think 20 23 to 24 main main unit days and then some second unit stuff without the actors because a lot of the

lot of the threat things that that you see in the film or like a gun being pulled up to the ceiling or also the sewing machine stitching the title that was done like on separate days without like on a minimal

crew without the actors so that was nice to have those days extra as well to really get those inserts because Freddie and me knew we needed those to tell the story was this I should have looked this up was this your first feature

it's kind of my first feature I did one at the end of my studies a 90 minute film but it's like on a student film level so it's right we did shoot it on the red which was like at the time was like my the biggest thing I ever did with shooting with the red um so it was nice and I think it really I learned a lot from that project obviously um but I would say I would therefore say this is my second feature but my first real one right If you're playing outside of school, sure. So what, what'd you learn from doing that then?

Not the first one, but this one. I always hesitate to say, what mistakes did you make? Because no one wants to be like, here's where I fucked up. But, you know, you always learn from mistakes. So maybe you don't have to share like what the mistake was. But what did you learn from it? You mean from shooting Sautorn? Yeah, I mean, I learned so much.

I mean, the biggest takeaway was to really, get a crew together that you trust and work well together and a lot of the people that I work with on the project I knew them from years before and there were friends of mine and then you have already this trust and you know you're going to be spending one month

with them in the same place like sleeping at the same place and spending every day together and I think if you get this crew like working like an well-oiled machine that makes everything so much smoother and so much more enjoyable because then

yeah just everything just works out and if I think if I would work with like complete strangers for like a month that I haven't met before yeah it might be a bit concerned whether I might ask this or that to that person would the person be offended or like

is it too much to ask or and this way is really just yeah everyone's working so well together and i think craft wise it also told me that yes you can shoot a feature on the fx6 with june so that was a good a good takeaway um and that oh actually that color grading makes a huge difference um i mean i i used color graders before but but we really we spent a lot of resources on the color rating here and and a lot of time because we knew we needed to get it right

and it would elevate the images a lot because with the Sony zoom lenses you get kind of like a clean look it's not very

filmic it's not very it doesn't have like a very steam yeah exactly yeah it doesn't have like a very own aesthetic I guess and so our colorist Simon Hardek in Switzerland

he was able to really elevate that and make it look like he was shot on Alexa or something and it just looked great and I think yeah I want to do that more often to really have a great colorist on the project and not just someone

at the agency or at the production company doing it him or herself just to save money but I think it really elevates the project and yeah I think those are the biggest takeaways sure I mean and also to your point about craft like i i feel like obviously you know cinema was sort of invent i mean literally was

invented in america but uh it's you know the entire film world is kind of america focused and i think one thing that you guys not necessarily lucked out on but certainly used to your advantage was we don't often see switzerland like your production value even if to you it was because i always try to tell like students like wherever you live that's new to a lot of people. You know, if you're in the middle of Ohio, shoot that. Because we see L.A. and New York and Atlanta all the time. So, like, having Switzerland is your, you know, if to you probably was like, you know,

that's my backyard. But to us, it's like, that looks great, you know. And you can use something like it. You don't have to church up an FX6 because you've got a great, you know, environment. You got great sets, you know, whatever houses and stuff like that, you know. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I think it's something that Freddie, from the. beginning he wanted to to capitalize on to to shoot in switzerland have the landscape like be

its own character these deep valleys so that the characters feel trapped and have this production feel have this international feeling to it even though they're speaking english and the signage is in english it is clearly set somewhere else and i think that makes make some of the appeal of the project yeah and there was a point where very early on where we discussed shooting it in in the u.s I think in Big Bear or something. I mean, Bear is gorgeous. Yeah, it is.

And I think it would have worked, but this is like a different type of landscape. And I'm really glad that we did it in Switzerland to have this international appeal. And for Switzerland, it's also new to have productions from overseas come to Switzerland. It doesn't happen a lot that Swiss film is rather small. And we do it like everyone's doing like, everyone's doing like their own stuff um and international

international co-productions is really a rarity over here especially with america it almost never happens with europe it kind of does but but then it doesn't have this ocean um in between of the co-production which which helps to make it even bigger and like have more of a wider appeal right yeah no and to and honestly i've uh been to big bear to go snowboarding and stuff and been up there in the summer to like hang out my buddy's got a house up there and uh the issue you it's smart you didn't because the issue that you would run into up there is part of it is a national park so it's federal land so you would have where you probably may have wanted to film might not have been permissible yeah okay you run into all these problems

trying to shoot on on federal land um yeah and and california i think is 40% Parkland which is amazing for visitors you know it's free you just go and yeah whatever it's one of the greatest gifts California is given to the world is like you get to you just come visit you can camp there for free

maybe there's a camping fear but you know it's cheap cheap free to cheap and just enjoy like some of the most beautiful nature in the world but you can't film there yeah yeah well then I need to do it somewhere else yeah it's way less strict

in Switzerland actually they open their homes to us and we were literally shot in homes of people that they live in and they would just let us shoot there for like a couple of days or even weeks because everyone's so excited about filming because it doesn't happen all the time

and I think I don't know about LA I heard that people are like used to it or even getting annoyed about it. They don't get annoyed, but it's like, again, this is something else I tell students about like filming where you live is exactly like you're saying, people don't see it so they don't know what to do. If you go to some random tiny little bodega, like gas station, whatever, in L.A., and you're like, hey, we want to shoot something here.

They'll just pull out like a permit. They're like, here you go, $15,000. Yeah. Damn it. Like, no, they all know the game, you know? so it's restrictive to film here, which is part of the reason why it's been an issue recently is all those restrictions and they're working on it.

It's not, I don't know where it's going to go, but right now it's it's piled up for sure. So yeah, like, well, and I think it must have been great for your career too being, you know, it's kind of the big fish and the small pond thing of like if you're if there aren't a lot of Swiss filmmakers you get more work yeah yeah exactly yeah and and to be honest the commercial industry in Switzerland is quite big because Switzerland has a lot of money and so they need ads so there's always like work in that but the fictional market is like

really small and there you can really stand out quite quickly and now with our film screening at Locarno Film Festival, which is the most important one in Switzerland, it's huge. Then you really meet a lot of people and you can make a career out of it and like, yeah, like standing out from competition. So that's nice to in the fictional market. Talk to me about the importance of film festivals because I feel like a lot of younger filmmakers or people starting out don't realize, you know, it seems like a rig. game or whatever but it's like

you tell me how I was about to editorialize you tell me how important going to like these because you did South by you did I think camera homage or whatever like all going to all these like what do you get out of it beyond just having to film there yeah I mean the most important thing

is to meet people in South by which which was my like with the feature it was my first major festival that I attended with an old feature film and so I really did my research and looked up all the people that were nominated that year and I would text them beforehand already and ask hey are you around the 10 days in Austin would you like to meet for coffee and with a lot of them I met for coffee and I'm

still in contact with them we follow each other on Instagram now and some of them I met again on Camarimage in Poland so it really helps to build a network to be around these festivals and the other thing is when you have a film screening there they they treat you differently they they kind of really roll out the red carpet for you because you're then like kind of the lineup and whatnot and you get to do Q&As in on the stage and after the Q&A it's always very cute the people come up to you and and give some compliments or ask some more questions and And so you can also, like, communicate with the audience, which also happens rarely otherwise. If you just, if you do like a vertical release, which is nice, or like a VOD release, you

don't get too often to talk to your audience. And film festivals really allows that. And I think all these mixers and like networking, happy hours where you can just get a beer and in every line that you're standing at the bar, there's like a. conversation happening because everyone wants to connect it's almost well you gotta it's in in europe i think it's a bit different there it's really more felt as like a competition because you're maybe taking away a job from the next dp whereas in the u.s i found at south by specifically um everyone's everyone wants to work together and there's no like hard feelings or like no

competition feelings which which is great and i think therefore it's it's it's cool to go to festival. Yeah, I think there is like, if I were to guess, like, because I've never had something. I've been to festivals, but I've never had something. I think Americans just by nature are so competitive

that the idea of someone taking your job isn't really in your head because it's like, I could have done better. Like if I lose, it's because I fucked up. It's not like, you know, none of us are owed anything. So if someone else wins,

whatever it's like I could have done better you know you don't immediately go you know I'm saying that that's what the Europeans do but no that's probably the better way

to handle things and the other thing maybe to keep in mind for film festivals and this is like more towards the business aspect of of the thing because it's I think in the end

it's also part of a business is that you you get seen you they might take your photograph in front of like a wall with like logos or something or on the stage

or on stage and then you can put it on IMDB and it's just good to have material from yourself on the internet I think because in my in my case it's a bit special because I have a different guy called Sebastian Klinger as well the cellist and he's a German cellist yeah exactly I ran into him looking you up yeah yeah and it confuses people and it happens with other people do have the same name as other people that are more famous in that sense. And so it helps to have material of yourself on the internet to build your presence because people want to Google you. And if they find a different person, then you, they're just confused or wouldn't want to call you or they don't know where to get your info. So I think that helps also to be attending film festival.

Well, and to your point, like producers or anyone who works not in the creative side of film, well, producing is obviously in the crazy side. But what I'm getting at is if you have photos of you in front of the step and repeat or at a festival or something, they go, oh, he's a real DP. You know, or the classic one is obviously someone will always, if there's a set photographer and you've got like a big Alexa build or whatever, you got to get that photo of you pointing, you know, past the camera or whatever. I remember a directing feature in college was like, all right, everyone, get it out of the way. We're going to set you up and just point. And then we'll take a photo and that's how you know you're a real filmmaker. But they look, it's stupid, but they look for that because there's just, there's markers of. And nowadays, unfortunately, there's like a whole thing of like, oh, they have, I'm hearing like even actors have to have a bunch of followers on Instagram like that matters.

But it's little markers that they look for that's like now the bare minimum of like, oh, are they quote unquote real? or not. Yeah. Exactly. You do have to kind of play that game. Yeah. And to be honest, in my case, it helps that I'm also a producer on the project because then at festivals, you get to play one of two cards,

depending on who you're talking to, which is fun. I actually have two business cards as well. Because sometimes if you're talking to a director, you want to be the deep. of his next project so he talked to him but if you if you meet by accident someone from like a streaming service or another business interested person you want to be a producer and and doing both I think really helps too to talk to even more people well and that I also have two business cards one of them because I'm a journalist and the other ones in DP I like to pull them out but because it's sometimes it's like a film journalism thing you know for this website called Pro Video Coalition

So sometimes if I want to borrow a camera or some lenses or something, I'll pull out that one because they... Yeah, good. Because as a DP, they're like, eh, what are you working on? But that website's really well respected. So people go, oh, shit. Yeah. But that you brought up another thing that I think about often, which is when people talk about networking, I don't know about other industries or other sections of the film world, but DPs specifically, like on Reddit or wherever, are always talking about like, where can I meet? other DPs to network.

It's like you don't network with other DPs. They're not going to hire you. You need to network with directors. Exactly. You need to be the only DEP in the room at a networking event with directors or producers. Yeah. It's probably easier to connect with a D.P because you can talk about lenses or like, or like approaches to lighting or whatnot.

But in and I think it's true. It's, it's more important to talk to directors. And yeah, it's always like I'm not very extroverted. think I'm getting used to it at these festivals they really help me approach people like not hesitate not like not fearing that they might reject you or something because they're all just people and they don't yeah I think they want to talk to um but yeah it's important to to meet those directors yeah we're the uh I so doing this podcast for you know five years I've I've I've figured out like what questions are good questions uh if I

have to ask like a question so I'll try to pull up when anytime I go to a Q&A I'm going to ask sorry my brain is in like four different places right now basically I hate Q&As because everyone has a bad question or they hit you with a I have more of a comment than a question it's like oh for my sake like we're wasting everyone's time so I'll try to pull out like a podcast question and I did this the other day at the ASC clubhouse where we were getting some yeah questions and then I pulled out a podcast question and the DP who I ended up having on the podcast like fucking two weeks later because of this

he was like that's a great one and I was like nailed it but how were the Q&As for you? Did you find that people had good questions at the festivals because I'm talking about like when you go to a film screening. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're nice. And usually I was at the festival

when the director was there too, Freddie MacDonald. So most of the questions were directed his way which is fine. It's also like story related. Like there's only very few questions for cinematography. Camry Marsh is totally different, obviously. I went there myself. I was the only crew member and I did the Q&A by myself.

And I got to really, like with you, like to go in depth into why did I shoot with the FX6? What's with like the international approach of this production? It's like this weird mixture of Swiss landscape and English. speaking actors like how did you go about all this and i i think because i was the only one on stage i also got into telling those parts about the producing side and and maybe even some story story related aspects um but usually i'm i'm very very happy with the q-days and i'm trying to think if i ever got like a really like a bad question but i don't i don't think i i experienced that yet well well to you know at those festivals you're a lot of times the people in the audience are other filmmakers so I feel

like that's better I'm more thinking of when you go to like you know an open screening where there's like and at the end the filmmakers will be there to ask questions and it's just some you know film goer what was it like working with pedro pascal you're like oh Christ was it hard to make the film yes next you know that kind of stuff that's a good question yeah it's well uh speaking of questions the hour just flew by um i know so i know it's it's already time to go but uh uh i'll let you get to sleep but awesome yeah thanks so much for this talk it's it's wonderful to to know you and to be able to talk to you of course right yeah the movie's great by the way so congrats oh thank you so i really appreciate it all right later dude well see

yeah bye kenny thank you frame and references an owlbot production produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so by going to frame and refpod.com and clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated, and as always, thanks for listening.