Frame & Reference Podcast - 212: "Smoke" Cinematographer Francois Dagenais, CSC

Episode Date: October 2, 2025

This week on the show we've got Francois Dagenais, CSC on to talk about his work on the Apple TV+ thriller series Smoke.Enjoy!► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠F&R Online ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Support F&R⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Watch on YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Produced by Kenny McMillan► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Hello, and welcome to this episode 212 of frame and reference. You're about to drop into a conversation between me, Kenny McMillan, and my guest, Francois Dajun, DP of Smoke. Enjoy. Do you ever come down for those types of events, like Sinegear and stuff like that? Yes, I went. It's funny, I went for two years in a row, a few years back, and it was great. I was there because I was invited to the Arias of dinner with a bunch of DPs. And it was amazing to be, you know, to be sitting next to all the great DPs.

One years I was next to Roboyoman. And it was very, very funny and, you know, and just met different people. And sometimes I will see them the next day at Sinegear. I remember I met Jonathan Sela barely for a few minutes. And then the next day I'm just walking and we just say, hey, anything I should see. And say, yeah, I should go to the Felix boot. Those lights are really good. And no, I'm using them.

So it's been very, very good. And those dinners were really good. I also went one year I was invited to just for the ESC dinner and so I'm I'm friends and I shot a movie that Chuck Minsky directed it and he was the chair of the ESC Awards so I was at this day you want to come to my table and so that was all good yeah I finally was able to what's the guy's name Alex something or another the guy who's like the gate key keeper for that. Yeah. And I basically just followed him around Sinegear until he finally was like, all right, whatever, you can come, but he gave me wrist fit. So this year, I was finally able to get in there.

And yeah, it's, it's real fun to like look up and you're like, oh, shit, there's Jeff Kronen went. I'm pretty good at just running over it being like, hey, you know. Yeah, no, those you sit down and we have full energy. So it was very, yeah, and it was very, very good. And I feel it gave me a good energy afterwards. like it gives you a boost and you see other people and sometimes during those dinner people tell you about you know a bit more just personal i'd be dealing with being on location or other

stuff so i just feel you i always come out of it right energy energites yeah no the i always say that like sinnegear is a much more interesting event than like nab and ab is just so tech focused and also exhausting. You know, it's so enormous. And sending gears, it's like all the same equipment, but usually a little smaller. And then, yeah, you get to see all your friends or colleagues or whatever, which makes, as you said, a lot more energizing. Those Felix lives really came out of nowhere. Yeah.

I feel like they're just popping up on every. It's like, I feel like they're going to be the next quasar. No, they work. But I think they're very well made. And they, I remember the first time, even when I was at Sining Gear and I saw those leikos. Yeah. And I saw how they were and how the angle. I just feel they well thought out.

That's what I will say. They really feel like they listen to what the industry needs. And they're not necessarily trying to copy somebody else. They almost see what is other lights are not doing right now. what can this do and they're trying to focus on a niche of the market or nobody seems to have put this and this together. I think that will be very useful. For example, for a rigging team, you know, so something, yeah. So there's always something. Like sometimes I'm like, I don't know if this life is better. But then the rigger is like, yeah, it's much better.

First of what, okay. Okay. You know, so yeah. But yeah, yeah, there's a quality. So there's something more unique to it and I think they've done, they've been able so that I think that's why people are reacting to them. Yeah, I mean, it's funny like I feel like from Kino to just regular like I guess sky panels. Everyone was like, okay, soft light is king and that finally we're like getting oh I guess we could make a couple hard lights to or three. But yeah, but even if you want to

bounce the light still in a soft way sometimes. That's why sometimes I even bounce the leecho, but in a very weird corner and they're able to be the right angle, so it doesn't go everywhere and they're the right size. And they have the right punch to still be used, let's say, as soft lights. We use some of the lights that they have on smoke as street lights. Sure. We replace them as street lights and then it became, you know,

we could give them a good color. and so that was like huh do you never read so are you are you very tech do you enjoy like the technical side of it or are you much more like passingly interested and just let the grip and gaffer team figure it out

I'm more yeah I'll say I don't know if I'm passive but I definitely let them do their thing like I'm not somebody you know, I'm not the type of people that will renovate their house by himself. For example, like I was just talking, a DEP like Chuck Minsky, he's helping the guy redo his garage, he's redoing his garage as an art studio. So he's there every day with him and he's enjoying that.

And that's for him is a great, that's not me. You know, that's not me. But I feel he has a different relationship with his grip team of how do you want to build this. He's much more checking them, but also he has an interest of what they're doing. I sometimes go see them like, oh, okay, cool. But I'm interested and I'm more fascinated also because I'm much, it's not my world. So sometimes I go see it and I'm much more asking question because I'm at awe of how they build it or what they were able to do. So there's much more of that fascination. So I'm not totally passionate.

I like to see it because a lot of time I'm more, this is incredible. I didn't know, you know, and then usually the gaffer in the Q grip will be rolling their eyes or their head. But of course, this is what we do. But you know, I'm, so yeah, so that's a bit. I remember at some point, I couldn't believe the tent that they built again on smoke on one location. This is incredible. And the grips, just, the rigging grips, just look at me. This is what we do.

Yeah. But it was unbelievable. I remember just I actually walked around and wanted to see more of it. They've done it. It was just amazing. Yeah, it does seem like even if technology has gotten more advanced in lighting, like that it does feel like the rigging of everything, the amount of the necessity for negative fill has made it so that now you're using way bigger, you know, fabrics and stuff as opposed to like fancier lights or whatever. uh yeah agree and the fencer lights are usually the smaller lights it's funny oh sure yeah i expect like car rigs now don't look you know you watch movies from the 90s and everyone's just lit by some giant thing yeah it doesn't mean now you can just put a little uh one of these little yeah exactly yeah it's it's it's fun to it's fun to watch all that like my obviously at my level i'm not doing massive bricks but i feel like

I have to be a little more on top of that because I usually end up buying the thing, you know, versus having a team with me, especially on like documentaries. Yeah, no. Did you, how did you get started in, because you had a pretty long career at this point. You've also done a great job of being completely offline, probably one of the artists people to do research on. Normally I can look all this stuff. I'm back now. I've done more. but like I was definitely

yeah I had a weird relationship in social media actually for smoke I came back to be more online but I went a bit more yeah I just felt that when I were used to be online

I was more checking my things I have a website that's probably that I keep up and I make sure like I have a great I have a friend that's an amazing top editor and you agree to still do my website and I'm like all

He's like, yeah, it's a same me, and we talked a bit, but he does it when he can, but he's amazing. Like, he's a, you know, he does a lot of much, much bigger stuff. This is not the way to make a living. It's really a friendship. Right. And we develop it. And I think he enjoys seeing what I progress.

But yes, I work a lot on my website, and I'm a bit more online. But yeah, I've kind of, at some point, I went off a bit the grid. I just feel it was not making me happy. I guess. it's that I'm right there man like at this point I'm especially in the past year or two I've been like that is the dream to just to be able to not have to do your own yeah PR at all or have it but I still do it but no I started in the industry in a very fairly unique way and it's too bad it didn't stay the national TV in Canada had this kind of special TV show

uh in french that was a bit a bit kind of a reality show but also kind of a contest show where they will send eight people between 18 and 25 that were non-professional to travel alone for six months and do 23 shorts in 26 weeks wow my year we went to i went to Africa and North America and the winner, by the way, you judge and the winner gets to direct a document feature documentary the National Film Board. So I did Africa, North America. The year after was Europe and Asia and after that they went around the world. So it became the, it was called the race, the course around the world, basically. And the person that won the year after me, you might have heard of him. His name was Danny Villeneuve.

sure yeah so that's if you want to know what then he started this is how he started as well but it was amazing i was i was 19 when i did it i was the youngest of my year you really it's really helped you to realize who you are what's your strength like a lot of people actually became journalist because you know it was kind of documentaries on any subject some were more funny some did much more abstract film i started to do even a bit of fiction during it but i realized my strength with images i really that's when i realized i will call the producer and it will be like so yeah you will talk to me about my the text because you had to record your voice and all that and i said all the images oh they were great they were great but you know you should really put

a pencil in your teeth before you record your text to have a better addiction you know better better narration so it was uh that's what i learned but it was i mean i went to refugee camp you know in malawi and uh i was able to go to uh see illegal gold prospector in ronda before the war like and i did a very poetic i didn't know it was poetic at the time but kind of a poetic film in Burkina Faso about a village that's waiting for the rain, that they need one more rain for their crops to be good for the year. It was just very simple to show how people live. And I met somebody, I met somebody that was working for an NGO on the plane going there and he said, because you have to find your subjects. Nobody gave it to you. So you arrive and you talk to people,

sometimes you've done your research. But you also give me a lot of confidence in doing stuff on my own. So when you have to do a short after and you have three months and first year to do a short, I can do that. You know, like it. And yeah, no, it's, so that's how I started. And from there, I had, before that, I had a philosophy teacher that was also a film critic and introduced me to a film director. And I was kind of a training, observing what he was doing. but very quickly I was not seeing the cinematographer

on that and so and his name was Eric Kaila and someone I'm still in touch after that but and from there

I just went you know I started to do a film school in Canada Concordia I did commercials for a year

in Central America and then I went to AFI and then started to yeah and then started to do I was very lucky I did a low budget feature where I was not paid 10 weeks and different

but with great casts of known actors so on my reel people recognize the actors the production team the director and the producer were very good and had a very big circle of friends at getting locations we had those amazing house those amazing place to shoot with known actors so when I had that in my reel and he got released in New York and L.A. at the time, people just assumed the movie was much bigger than it was. And they were like, oh, you have this cast. And yo, this is like a real restaurant. And this is like this big house. And, you know, it was amazing. It was an amazing, that's how I started. And then I did the bit feature. But then I met a director that I really liked working with. And we did those documentaries. Our name was Ellen Clive.

and I was able to do like four films with her and so from there I did I still was doing drama but enjoyed the time that I did more documentaries and one of my favorite project is still we went to Sri Lanka and it was a human rights activist from Sri Lanka had been killed and for the first time a family agreed to talk about it and it was still when the civil war was still going on and she had a very interesting approach uh um you know a bit more stylized or she wanted to do it and um it was it was an incredible experience yeah i mean it you know there's been a lot of dPs i've spoken to who have almost come from like that kind of journalistic background i'm i'm thinking immediately of uh uh kirsten johnson johnson you know like

seeing how full of life she is, just fun. And then she's like, so anyway, the 5D really changed my life. Because when I was in Afghanistan, they wouldn't kill me. And you're like, what, what? Like, there's a lot of that. It feels. You don't really get in America most of the time. You're just like, you know, filming with your friends.

It is interesting that in, at least in, you know, the West Coast where I grew up. Yeah. We don't have a lot of those like, I guess in America, like those type of film. I know the UK does that a lot where they're like they'll spend money to get kids to like learn filmmaking as a program and we don't we don't do that here and I feel like that's that's a that's a miss but by the way this TV show talked at the beginning you were on TV every week like to present on TV and it was a it was still like a reality contest so for them they were justifying the money because people were tuning in and at the time you end up in weird places and things happen to you

film is not good and people were fascinating also by what was happening to you in the week or yeah the money at the bank didn't get delivered for some reason and so you had to do this or you had to spend 35 hours waiting in there you know so there was all those stories that made the reason that there was viewers and of course that was all before social media so people were much more fascinating um of also how much trouble people will be willing to go like 20 hours 25 hours on that bus or special uh you know jeep to go somewhere to make you discover something unique so were you ostensibly alone on these shoots or did you have like a crew following you no no you're alone like you arrive with a tourist visa we had the format with super vhs

and you do you allow two tapes and by let's say you arrive a Saturday by the Friday or Saturday you have to have your your project sent right and so you arrive usually take a day or two to find your subjects usually record in a day then you do your write your texts and with a stopwatch because there was no time code you do and by a few years later they had time code you you you say that the image at three minutes, 20 second, you do leave your shot lists, put it for six seconds. Then you have a paper edit, you put that in the envelope, and you send that to buy FedEx or a lot of time in Africa. It was a DHL or the actual courier, like Air France courier or something like that. And so you were extensively alone, and then there was always, for all the years, it was the same editor and then you got to tell yeah that was amazing and sometimes the description was not right so you had to think for himself and I didn't know much about filmmaking so at some point

I say three seconds dissolved that would be super slow and everything and I realized was super fast like I didn't you know I didn't have the experience but no you traveling alone so you meet people and depending if you arrive at the airport alone certain areas airport, they're really looking to grab, let's say, you know, take advantage of you by offering you this and that. But also you meet people that are just incredible, like the people I met in this village. I remember I went to this restaurant a few times and the owner of the restaurant decided to help me. I would stay two weeks in Arunda and she's like, yeah, one of my clients. You should go see him.

He doesn't have a phone, but he's a retiree, and you can maybe help you. So I drove three hours to meet him, and I'm like the Tuesday. I'm like the Monday night. I have to deliver a film by Saturday. And so I meet him, and he's not talking much, as though this is not going well. And he talks, you know, to other people, I don't know. Then you come back. He said, okay, we're leaving two jeeps tomorrow, seven.

am we're going to find you illegal prospector it's a five-hour drive i'm bringing you taking care of everything you're staying with me said no forget your hotel we'll we'll get your embrace you staying with me it's better we leave from here the the room is getting ready for you and everything you know like this was the the kind of experience that you do people were sometimes extremely nice and in the states i had also i end up i'm in new mexico i have no idea where to go i try to to meet, end up at the University of New Mexico at the bookstore, and I see this book of all the photographer for New Mexico. And I see that all the pictures I liked, a lot of the photographer I liked, it's all about Taos, New Mexico. I decided to go to Taos, New Mexico. And then I go to the

main newspaper, little newspaper there at the time, still a real newspaper that was doing interesting journalism and the main journalist is just like yeah I'll help you out this is a bunch of subjects do you want me to call it for you you should come back I told my wife you're coming for dinner tonight and and I did you know a film in the middle of nowhere about a hippie community that was without the solar just living without of the grid you know 30 years ago that was over 30 years ago that was a big deal to be living off the grid right and then I did another film I did two films I stay because I love it about this

painter that was inspired by what happened in Tiananmen Square. I did a foot series and we talked and I filmed in for two days and it was amazing. And it's all from meeting this guy. So that was kind of the experience. You know, with the popularity of like Anthony Bourdain

show, coupled with you know, for whatever, Love Island, you know, those types of shows. I bet you could relaunch that series and people would enjoy it. I'm, I'm wonder what I'm actually fascinated by this because like I've been shooting this docu series yeah has me I'm second unit so all I'm doing is coming interviews various places

yeah and so it's taking me all over the country and but I'm only usually there for like two days yeah and my move has been just find the closest restaurant that looks interesting next to a bar or a brewery or something that looks interesting and in one night you can make a whole bunch of friends I'm wondering what was your method of trying to get like to meet these people how do you ingratiate yourself to a to a community that quickly i mean sometimes we had a month before to try to find people but sometimes as i say we're in brickena fast so i meet someone in the plane is like you work for an NGO said you want to come to my village i'll help you up you can stay with me i'm there until tuesday if you're here by

11 monday tomorrow you can live with me and see what's in the village Okay, I arrive in the village and there, I know I'm three days there. I filmed for two days, very quickly. Then you have to make decision and you have to trust people. Right. You know, sometimes I stay in a bed and breakfast and I talk with the people working in a bed and breakfast. And one of them I discovered was trying to be an actor in San Antonio, Texas. And I'd done some community theater and was pushing and we talked about stuff.

he was Latino and just had a very interesting face and feature. And I said, what don't we do? Can we do some kind of a drama? Can we invent stuff with you? Yeah, yeah. He started to write with me and it just did it, you know? And it's easier when I was there two weeks. So I did maybe one film before.

And then, but sometimes it was really, you really had to be tuned of, okay, I'm having breakfast at the bed and breakfast, talk to people. sometimes for some reason I wanted earlier breakfast that they will have me in their kitchen having their breakfast it was easier to talk to them but you're very open to just and sometimes people will give you names of someone you should go see sometimes you arrive there they're very helpful and sometimes they they not but yeah and sometimes you in the cafe someone come talk to you and have an idea but sometimes also Also, as I said, I would go, I was, I went to meet like a French teacher in New Mexico. That went nowhere. Then I went to the bookstore. Sometimes people will, like, give me from before a contact or some people at reach, you know, when you arrive. So you have, like, Malawi that had been organized with the high commission for refugees.

I'd done that four months before I left. So that was like very official and set up. that film was like, okay, you're going to refugees camp. They had clear everything with the government, my passport. Like, everything had been clear in advance. Right. You could do that. You had a month before you leave that you discover it.

But if the whole process, you have to apply and you have to do some films and people were eliminated on cameras. Did you, were you focused on cinematography at that point or were you just documenting? I wanted to be a drama director, you know, like, I think, I don't know who had been my influence at the time. Like who, I mean, I had a bunch of movies I love, but like the kind of style or the people, I guess someone like Vim Vanders, I felt like a cool life, was making good movies and was a bit everywhere. But, you know, that kind of, you know, I was influenced, I was a bit influenced more by the lifestyle.

I was 19 and the director, but I was not aware I was good at images. before that. And before that, I thought maybe I would work in stills. Oh, something funny. First night that was set up to someone that used to be my neighbor when I'm six years old,

was from the States, end up meeting through his daughter. I'm invited to dinner by this young photographer, and he has a bunch of art directors and people from the advertising world. And this guy next to me at the dinner, and I've been asked me, you know, if you want to do a film

of a photographer I work with, I'm his art director, maybe you'll be interested. He does mostly commercials and stuff. He said, what is his name? Irving Penn? Nah, I don't think so. And I was like, no, I don't know him. It's still, you know, one of the great

photographer of all time. I could have spent two days with him. Like, he was literally. You want to come to the meet him tomorrow? I didn't even say yes, you know? So that's what I'm saying. You have to be a show. I should have looked at a book in the next day, go to the thing.

Who is this guy? You know, ask people, a phone, friends. I'll do something. Today on the internet, it will take 30 seconds. I'll be on the iPhone. Oh, yeah, this is a, but I had no idea. So that's a bit, but yeah, I didn't know about some photography. It was much more influenced by stills and thought I might be a still photographer.

And then I did, as I say, I was kind of an observer, intern type on this feature. and I saw this deep here with Kayla and I didn't realize I thought that I thought the director was sending up the lighting and the camera right

and it was very interesting at some point I really saw the relationship and that the director came more from writing and I remember he set up a shot the DP set up a shot that was beautiful

frame was perfect and the director said no this is wrong they too close to each other at this point in the story you see they still look at the dialogue they shouldn't be further apart we need to put them there's more distance between them we need to understand that and like okay and i remember seeing that and understanding that's a bit the

relationship you can have i mean every director is different but i saw a bit sometimes that's the relationship and then i saw i was interacting with the others but i was still not sure it would be a dp and then when i started film school i realized i understood enough technical stuff i was not sure i was with the technical, when I realized it was good and understanding films and exposing film and then I just fall in love with it. Yeah. To your point earlier about like knowing photographers and stuff,

I think that was a big jump, not jump, but like something that stood out to me after leaving film school was like, I think film school teaches you to be a technician. And then when you finally start working, you realize like, oh, all the people who are successful are artists and they and they have way more interests than you would assume you know photography might be one of them but a lot of you know architects and stuff and all yeah

and uh that that was fun for me because like I was like oh I get to learn new stuff you know I hate feeling like I know everything now about a subject I'm like now it's boring I think that might be the ADHD in me but like where did they go to film school uh Arizona state I went to New York Film Academy right before that they had this like summer program for high school was like six weeks and then Arizona State which now is a phenomenal film school but at the time it was

brand new so it was just like 30 of us fighting over a DVX 100 you know yeah yeah yeah but I will say to that point because I brought that up a few times like the one great thing is all of us moved back to L.A well back for me but we all moved to L.A

and all still work you know one person in our group became a relatively successful actress, you know, other people went into production or art design or whatever. But like, I think whenever people ask about like, oh, going to college, is it worth it? I'm like, yeah, mostly because of the friends you'll make. And obviously in film school, it's like, oh, it's who you know, that'll be the person that gets you your job. It's like, yeah, but even the friends that don't work in cinematography or whatever, it can't like hire me

for a gig, it's still nice to have a large friend group that all, you know, you've, you've grown up, you can share problems with it. I think it's tough for people to like go to film school and then move to New York or L.A. or wherever it be Vancouver and then be alone. No, I totally agree. But I feel if you share years together and you share something that somehow remain, I totally agree. Like I have friends from AFI, you know, there might be other DPs, but we, We still, we talk, you know, about just our life or things and how is going on a shoot when they're standing each other.

But we could be fully honest, you know. Yeah. So that's, I feel that's, yeah, I personally liked film school. I mean, AFI, of course, is a very expensive and it's a big, big commitment. I'll say it's probably the best one as far as I've seen. From, yeah, everyone else. But both film school, for me, and even with today, with the access to camera and everything, I feel it gives you a discipline in a structure.

If you're someone that needs, that kind of just courses, learning, uh, being also with other people exchanging that way, it's your place. And as you say, you make not necessarily, I will say, some of them are not, even connections they're more just friends you know like you just talk about stuff and you you did stuff together but i feel if you're someone that is very entrepreneurial and doesn't need you know could totally put decide to do the hundred best movies or whatever and do a list and we'll do it in six months or we'll do ten major directors and we'll watch five movies of all of those directors and his very structures and his film mystery

and then bought a camera knows what you rented is really good at making connection to shoot stuff for free but interesting stuff or even created their own projects i know people like that yeah and they i was never that person but i know so if you have your own now it's a lot cheaper and easier to buy lenses and camera, if you have that and you have also kind of that sense of where to explore and go to meet other people to shoot, that's amazing. But if you don't have it, it's also a good place to meet sometimes people that you have something meaningful to go with. My first feature, no, not my first feature, but my friend's first feature, Federico, we did it together and I introduced him to his producer

and the film went to Sundance. My only film I went to Sundance. But we met at Concordia film school in Montreal. Right away, I say he was really talented in his movie. We're very different at a unique voice and we did that together. So we did that movie and now he's doing his own stuff. I'm still CMSOM a few months ago. But that's what it is, is at some point, if you connect with people and you want to grow with them, and sometimes it's not so much that you're in contact, but you've made a meaningful connection with someone artistically and you connect during the film school. Afterwards, maybe you could develop projects together, and maybe you have to shoot for free for that person to really help the project going.

But hopefully, you know, a few years before me at film school, the best example will be Darren Aronovsky and Matthew Levitic. You know, they were both at AFI just a few years before me. I will actually, I will actually hear about him. It's funny right away. Oh, yeah, I did doing this, like when he was doing his first feature, all they hear about it just because it was just a few years removed. But they really connected there.

And that's what Films School give you is a place, hopefully, to find kind of your team or your soulmates of a filmmaker that you could create after. And it doesn't mean it will happen. It's the two people I was the closest, the production designer and the director, that we did our projects together at AFI, I actually thought I was afraid they were going to leave me behind and go do big things.

That production designer is very talented. It's now a pilot from American Airlines. And the director did, you know, end up doing stuff. But she felt at the time it was very hard for female filmmaker. And now she's in charge of an NGO. Oh, wow. So, you know, it's too bad. And our short did well, but still, we had done the first year short together and we did the second year short and second year short got shortlisted for the Oscar, like the last 30 or 35 shorts.

But still, those two people find it too hard and left to the industry. So even if you meet people, it doesn't mean it will work. But I felt that maybe if I was there and I had a camera, the lenses, and I said to that, the team, hey, let's do something, or let's do five minutes of your feature, or can you get this known actor to be, to do this? Will that help you? I feel there's still ways, but if you meet people and connect, as opposed to you're answering an ad for a short and you don't, you didn't have time to build a connection, it's not the same. Yeah. Well, and it's fun to, like in your case, like maybe at some point that NGO does something incredible. And you're like, oh, you know, I can't shoot that, but I know

someone else who could do a great documentary or like having a pilot friend has got to be fun but even just having even if the people you meet there never hire you again it's still wonderful to or i shouldn't say hire you but you never work together again it's still wonderful to to have careers in parallel of course you know it's it's it's incredible lonely especially as a dp and it's fun to be able to just like meet up with someone that you've known for in my case at this point like 15 years and there's no you know you can like you were saying talk honestly about your failures and stuff like that that we all go through I feel like a lot of times when people hey can I get a coffee and pick your brain it's always just like how can you how can you get me

work you know it's very rarely just talking about the rest of it yeah yeah or or if your friend your close friend call you and need work is because he really needs work yeah yeah and then you're like, oh, I don't know, I need work. Okay, yeah, yeah, let me see what I can do now. I understand. Yeah. Like, it's not, hey, can you get me a job? No, no, no, I need work, Francois.

Can you, okay, I get it. Yeah, I'll help. My friend Nick is very good at that for me. Yeah. So, but, you know, yeah, so, but yeah, as I say, film school is not for everybody. And these people that never went that went either started just to crew or they were very good that just offering the service and knowing where to or, you know, they had the right. Yeah.

Yeah. So how did, what was the path into smoke then? Was it just like, work, work? I'm going to assume they saw yellow jackets and were like, that's good. Or like, how did you get pulled onto that? No, no, no, no. It was more of, it was, again, it was connections in a way, in a way. When it was more, someone that vouched for me, more than just a connection, is someone

director I work with named Jim McKay and had a really good relationship with and he's done he's done some of the best TV you know breaking bad better call soul

Mr. Robot the Wire the good wife anyway you basically the top 10 yeah yeah yeah he does done so I he had work on Blackbird and from my agency on the list

from my agency, I saw that Dennis Lehman is a new show, and I said a team. They're like, oh, this is a team from Blackbird. I'm wondering if Jim is doing it. So I just emailed Jim and say I'm interested, didn't hear about it, get an interview for smoke. So then I emailed Jim again. He's like, oh, sorry, I didn't reply to you. I just forwarded to one of my best friend is the producer on it. So I told him to check you out and give you an interview, basically.

So I'm like, oh, yeah, of course. So then I did the interview with Dennis. And there was a few other people on the call as well, Carrie Antelis, Antelis and Jane Bartolami, the line producer. And I was doing well. At some point, I felt I was not getting Dennis. I was not getting, you know, there was something. And then I kind of looked at.

him and I was very clear an answer about, you know, why I wanted to be on the show. And his body language changed. I'm like, okay, that's what he wanted to know why. What was it? It couldn't you couldn't place me. Now I explained really

like, okay, now I'm placing you. And there is body language and he's talking about stuff and I felt okay. But yeah, that's, it was really just a matter of having gym that I enjoy working. working with me and everybody on that team basically knew him and knew that he was kind of a working director a lot and worked with a lot of people.

The funny thing is they had set up so I will be working with Jim, but then they changed the schedule and we didn't work together. I did all my episode with Joe Chappelle, but Joe is also great director and was the producing director. for three years, three season of the wire, for example. So very, very top. Any had done a lot of the episode of Blackbird. Both Jim and Dennis, both Jim and Joe knew Dennis since almost 30 years ago. They had met him, I think, on the wire, both of them.

Not you didn't know him well, but I'd just say, hey, yeah, read your script, you know, like they knew a bit. And then they both went Blackbird. So I felt that that made a huge difference for smoke, having directors that had already a long-standing relationship with the showrunner and a writer like Dennis. For me, I did all my episode with Joe, so I did all five of him with him, and it was great to learn again to know each other. But then by the time we did our fourth episode together, we already, you know, we were shorthand, and we could go further. We talked, hey, we haven't tried this.

We haven't tried that. He was a very, it was very, very good that way. Yeah. Do you, now I have two questions. But the first one is, do you remember what you said that made him, his body language change as you said? Do you remember what? Yeah, I answer more.

I think he didn't understand. why I wanted to do the show exactly right this just just like I want a gig yeah and so that's it and you saw some of my show that was maybe more stylized it was maybe more grounded in reality and I remember just saying I'm interested in working

I said I don't care the genre that the show is I want it to be the best it can be in that so and I say all the team everybody I see involved in this they're all the top Like, you've done this, you've done that, you've done, like, and this is amazing for me. This is what I'm looking for so I could work at that level. And then he was there, okay. Yeah.

And then he's like, okay, then he made sense to him because, you know, I've done stuff in different genre. Like, you know, the Mr. Benedict Society was, you know, more of a children's show. But I'd done, you know, people like James Wobbin and Carmen Kusama directed on that show. So there was still a level. So the minute you realize why I was, I says body language changed. Yeah. And so there's two DPs on the show, you and who else? No, there was three.

The pilot was done by Sam McCready. Okay. And then he left after the pilot. And then Scott McMillan arrived and did three episodes. Gotcha. And so did Sam set up the look? or was there a more collaborative kind of thing? It was a very stylized show.

Yeah. So how much have you seen, by the way? I saw up to three. Okay, perfect. Yeah, I didn't get any screeners. So I just, I guess four comes out tomorrow at the time of this report. Yeah. So, yeah, so I saw, yeah.

So what it is is Sam made, you know, he was explaining he was doing, but you really created a foundation in terms of, of he used the camera that I didn't really have used before the Sony Venice 2 with the Hawks Aramorphics

I knew they were Hawks All right X the X, yeah and he had the crew with Lacrem de la Crem a lot of the crew from Shogun

right you know top crew all around so I arrived that had been there but what happened is I think by the time Sam left and the pilot Derek Curry left, there only had been a few scripts.

And the, you know, the, the, the character is really developed and there's a lot of twists in the show and different path. And I'm not revealing anything. Anybody that's read that this Lehain novel, right? Won't be surprised by that. About John Orr. Then the show had to remain consistent

while at the same time responds to the evolutions of the characters, evolution of the script, and even I would say how the actors were playing their characters and they were still during the pilot discovering their character. So that became, in a way, the art journey of me and the director Joe, of course, in collaboration, with Dennis and collaboration with all the great team I had.

But that became really a lot of the discussion I had with Joe was about that. It's like, yeah, but now this is happening and how do we change? But is it too much of a difference? But yeah, we need to respond to this and this and this. And Dennis was really open. He pushed us to keep doing our best and be bold and do things. still had to response to the evolution. And so there's a lot of change that happened.

And so what was weird, interesting, but very unique for me, is I was on the survey of the pilot with Joe, wondering if it's actually when I met him or just the day before. So we did the pilot together. So it was sometime more in the back and watch everything. And then we shot some fire in the first day of the shoot second unit for the pilot. So we were there from the first day of the shoot. Anyway, we're still shooting together on the last day of the schedule, like five months at the end. So we stayed the entire time to kind of create that kind of, I will say, continuity.

And of course, Scott, he was working with Jim McKay, were responding to the same thing and still trying to adjust things also with their block. but you know so like hey i'm going to do this is that you know so there was still collaboration there yeah i mean it's a phenomenal looking show the uh you kind of you know what's funny is obviously i've only seen up to the end of three but uh without well this this episode of this podcast is going to come out probably by the time the show's out so like fully um but uh it i was reminded uh you know by the end of episode two it kind of it has the same um I suppose pacing of like knives out where you get you get the the goods almost immediately

and now the rest of the series is going to be sort of a reverse cat and mouse game almost which I was like I enjoy that very much but you still yeah there'll be new discovery and new characters and you introduce to characters that were not there in a first tree and again I will say that's also come from maybe the world of novels or you will have 100 pages and then oh there's a new character that's really important in the novel, and it takes you a second way. I think it's still that structure. And I find it for me, what I really loved about being part of the show is I felt you were part of something unique, where you had really a creator, Dennis, with the other writers, of course, and the team of item.

But everybody, you know, that was involved from the line producer, PM, ADs, all the production team and all the creative team were all there to support. And they all wanted this to work. And all the actors, they were all very happy to be there. That's the other big thing. They were happy to be, you know, saying those lines. they were happy to be part of the show. I've been on the series where the actor hate to be on the show. They were promised it was supposed to be a one summer thing.

This was to be bad. They needed to make money. And then the show became popular in the third season or whatever. And you could see, like, they don't read. They don't know their lines. They don't care of being there. And sometimes they're good actor. They just didn't want to be there.

And it makes the crew feels it. it so it's difficult then to push and try to do good work in this i felt it was such a pleasure and so much more easier to do your best work because you're seeing you're reacting already to the writing that's there but then you see the blocking and you see you start seeing the rehearsal with the actors and everything everybody everything comes alive and you just want to help and push that and as I say since you have so much support from everything around the production and everything you you have what you need to do it and you and you had the conversation at advance to be able to do that kind of work and as I say you have the crime the le creme of a crew

so right did was there any uh sort of references for the look of the show obviously like an easy one would have been like backdraft I mentioned that must have been a conversation But like, well, the main one was the favorite film from Dennis, which is the French connection. Sure. Okay. That's really in terms of the greediness, the feeling of the city, we added a bit of grain. That was really, really important for him. And also how the characters are not unique and they're bit complex and they're not totally playing from the rules. You know, they have a bit of their own rules. And, you know, they have a bit of their own rules. And. and all of that. So that was, but it's felt really grounded in reality. And I think that's what Dennis wanted. You wanted to do maybe some,

the look could be, as you say, stylized, but he still wanted to feel really grounded in reality in terms of believable that, like a location, a lot of it for him, for example, was location driven. I don't buy this person. on this salary will live there. This guy is doing a lot of illegal stuff.

He wouldn't live in a fancy place. He will hide that he has so much money and he will leave more. So you have to find a very small place to shoot. Or, you know, Harvey, the head of the fire department, played by Great Caneer. we wanted much more a house built in wood more of a post and post and beams kind of house to also difference from other stuff so that was the location we had to look for but so yeah that's what i mean he really wanted to be do abide at the characters are there and then the lighting you could take liberty but i will say

A bit like how documentary photography will take liberty. If you're familiar with a lot of the photographers from Magnum, a Magnum agency, it's funny because Dennis is a huge fan of, yeah, still photography, but documentary is still photography. And Joe Chappelle had a lot of pictures from Magnum photographer, mostly from a French photographer named Patrick Zuckerman. that was end display and then sam also had pictures from soul so leather lighter i think but yeah yeah so that's that's the photographer yeah brought in but a lot of it as we went and i brought

the photographer abut in was alex webb sure also to this relationship with the city and the city being kind of a character, how do we, how do we make that, how do we make it feel and all of that? So that was the reference more than maybe a bag draft or, you know, something else. Because a lot of the fire and this other fire near further in the season, the reference were either documentary footage or again uh still photography from national georgraphic of actual fire and all all does it look or uh other uh magnum photographer um so that's that's that was a lot of what was the reference but definitely i would say the first based was um the french connection yeah Talk to me about the color contrast because it's, there's a wonderful, I mean, it's not, it's not the same throughout, you know, it's, well, the look is consistent. But, you know, exteriors are giving me kind of an Ozark vibe sometimes. A lot of these interiors have this wonderful interplay between like green and orange in a way that doesn't feel forced, you know, sometimes you can overgrade something. And then obviously with fire, you've got this wonderful, brilliant orange. And I was wondering how much of that was, are you,

Are you, like, tuning LEDs to give you that? Or is that more in the grade? How are you guys approaching? It's a bit of everything. Yeah. I had, first of all, I had a wonderful bit named Chris Bolton. So it was really keeping things, and it was really helping with the look. And then our final colorist, Ziggy, also was creating very strong look.

But then they, with Sam, they decided to do. a film, there's a film, I wouldn't call it a plug-in, but a film, film grain ad that company tree has. There's a bunch they have. And so Sam choose one that he liked. Was it live grain? Hmm? Was it live grain?

Yeah. Yeah. Like a live, it's a real grain, like real grain that they can add. I don't know if you call it live grain, but real. Oh, no, there's just a plug-in called live grain. I don't think, no, it's their own company tree. Gotcha. they're never going to tell us no but i believe it's real grain that they put through stuff that

is it's uh it feels like literally great so but it's their own they've created a few of them but it's not it's not a plug in from somewhere they they made they master their own uh yes so it's their own sauce exactly uh so but that reacted to the color as well which is interesting that affected too as well but from the beginning there was definitely an idea to push the the color contrast

but on a way to if you look at some of these movies they do that a lot so there's a lot of there was a lot of that kind of respect to going back to that and when I had night exteriors

I had I didn't color. Never try to never be too much. Like, you know, sometimes, yeah, people bet in color. But feeling that you could put, especially there was a scene at the end of two in an alleyway where I felt I had a lot of freedom to have a bit more color and a bit more contrast. And so that, you know, and so that we, there was lights that were there for real. But then we added a lot of our own lights to create. And Jared Tiffin, the rigging gaffer, was excellent at giving you more even than you need and really sell you want deeper. And then, hey, what do you thought? Which color should we go just to tell them? And of course, everything is through a board. Most of the time, some were not on a board, but we'll find stuff that we're still.

I think the big role again is that color grounded in reality. Maybe not a lot. But if you have a building that look a bit industrial, can you have that color? coming back to the wall next to the actor or not right it was always finding a palette that includes quite a bit of color but that feels grinded to reality and we play uh on a to find there was a and sometimes i'll tweak it but definitely we will play with the color of the worn find the right one that's something that sam had done and then we'll we'll adjust as we go again that's what we're saying, do we go less? Do we go more? And I had the team to do that. And then, as I say,

between the did, between Ziggy, that film grain, that all was part of it. Yeah. Do you find that recently I've been very interested in the idea of artificial light having to, meaning, you know, like the lights that we had, having to fight its way into us. I can't remember who told me this, But I've just been sitting in my brain for months now, which is the idea that a lot of times, you know, especially on a documentary or whatever, you'll put just the light there, you know, maybe through a diffusion. And there it is. And then, but someone was like, no, I like it when the light has to fight its way into the room because it feels more natural. And I was wondering, does that, does that spark anything? And you do you have a similar idea of how like artificial light should be? if that's a good question. No, no, no, it is. Sometimes it is actually, I would say sometimes easier to make it more natural or something. If as opposed to put it next to it, the lights should be coming from the window.

You do make it really come from the window and then you added just a bit of light. you know there's a scene in a fast food restaurant at the end of three and a lot of our lighting for that came from outside so it's lighting them we supplemented with stuff inside don't get me wrong but still I felt that if the lights were off the restaurant is closed and the employee is just there that the lighting will be more coming from the outside it's more believable you're more playing with the city and there's a bit of light inside as if it's bounced from just ambient from another window or it's it's there's a bit of light still in the in the restaurant so that that's I feel and some people will push that idea even more they'll close the curtain they will close things so you never feel that things are overlit you know but then sometimes you will put your light tall in the room

and just shape it and it does work as well but I understand the idea of like you know I'm coming more from a place that feels real it might be harder but it will have more of naturalism

and sometimes what we call naturalism actually makes it more stylized because you only have light there the actors are going in and out of shadows because the light is just in one section but that's actually how it would be in that room that's definitely more what where I was kind of getting at was the idea of like you know when I was younger my first instinct would certainly be oh there's light you know even on a night shot in the restaurant there's light

coming in from the window now I can just put my key right here because it's quote unquote motivated by the window and now I'm more interested in the idea of like oh no it's bouncing off the floor and then the wall so that's where it has to to come from. And it might be lower in a weird color, you know? Like that's starting to make me excited to try out, you know.

I've done, by the way, in a dock. I did, the doc we did in Sri Lanka, we actually put industrial practical right in the frame. Interviews. So people, it made him... Like a sodium? Yeah, with sodium and mercury.

Real ones. And Yeah, that film is called No More Tears Sister. It's on PBS. And we, and the idea was more that people were underground to do those anti-view, that it was more secretive, that they didn't, you know,

since it was somebody that there was still a civil war and someone had been killed, they were not. Those people could live normally, but it was a bit the idea that it was a bit more underground, a bit more, as they were describing stuff, like we were running those streets, and there was a bunch of guns,

We felt that well lit in a nice place, in a nice hotel room, wouldn't fit. Right. We find places that were with those lights, a bit darker, felt more that you were an attic or basement, that kind of vibe. Just help with what the people were saying that sometimes were like, you know, I was afraid of, you know, I would be the next one that would be the, nah, nah, no, no, you know, I couldn't believe my sister got killed. and that was her sister, the family talking. So that's one thing we did to help with those interviews. Yeah. What were some of the challenges of shooting, obviously, massive fire sets?

I assume VFX came in and churched it up a little bit. Yes. Well, it depends. The first episode, that was the biggest challenge because Taryn and the, whoever, if there's a, is wearing a real mask, is really in a very hot situation where he has his own respiratory and everything. So for those scenes,

all the operators and camera assistant had to do a special training and the hydrate respiratory and everything. Later on, when we did other fires, we didn't have a, like the actors were not wearing that. So, of course, you can never be so hot that it's dangerous for the actors

that don't have protection. They're not in a fire situation. They're not being a fire situation. They might be a fire, but they are not in the suit. They're not in a suit. They don't have their own respiratory. So we have to respect things. So that was more, there was a really good safety protocol

that was put in place but it was more that we did a big big scene at some point on the stage and near the end of the series and we had to worry will it be so hot on the ceiling

that the lights all the S-60s will start reacting or will start turning off on their own so that was one of the worry we had to to to be but mostly what we do is there was a lot of monitoring the various monitoring that

were done on set and if it goes to a certain level uh corbinite the different things that were testing everybody would just go out we'll open all the doors and everybody was taking a 10 minute break right sure sure that AD loved uh no AD would totally prepare for it like that is a safety things so yeah they're fine with it it's just no no but also he was totally prepared like he had he actually happened less than he thought so you had be fit in the schedule i think he had think that that will happen eight or nine times a day that maybe three or four so he was totally he was totally prepared for um that in a lot of time it will be well okay let's break for lunch a bit early we'll do the stage and then we'll come back or that kind of thing sure how do you make

artificial fire you know so obviously you got real fire there but how do you make artificial fire look real because i find that every LED panel that has the fire setting doesn't look good well we uh first of all when we use a LED was usually maybe more for the soft part and we had you know we have of course a board up that will be uh that will find their own uh we'll try to find your own setting to the not something preset and spend a lot of time like if we're doing the exterior sometimes they will be you know he will be uh looking and sometimes the gaffer will be there a great gaffer d'if de cal uh will be looking for the more realistic the other thing is we use not basically soft light we use denos and though in a maxibruits and those big lights and did

an effect that way. Yeah. Well, and those tungsten pictures are literally fire. So it was a little bit easier to make. So and there was quite a bit of real fire. I feel if you have real fire, that's, you know, that makes a lot of the, the, if part of it is real,

I feel whatever you add after that, it's easier to buy it right yeah or even just match too you can see yes exactly so we will usually it will be a match you will be when we did bigger fire it would be um real fire with let's say hard light deno's a maxi brute plus s60 or 360 or cream source because you wanted more the more punch no more punch but more more cell and more cell in the light or and vFX yeah so that combo you know is really what made it work yeah well it's uh it's a phenomenal show man i'm i'm very excited that i get to oh i mean it was for me it was uh it was one of my highlight to have done that I mean, I was, and of course, we're talking about the big fire scene, but some of the,

there's a scene in episode four just in the office and there's a practical, a long dialogue scene. And I just love that, you know, just the two actors there and we're doing this long dialogue scene. And it was stylized because of what the practical is there and doing a lot of the key light. But it was just, yeah, it was a lot of scenes. that it was just special and you're very just happy to be part of it yeah i mean the inside of terran's house what's his character's name i just i just watched all three episodes uh this morning but uh it uh anyway that hit the house it i just love the way that's like the night scenes especially like i it just looks you know just having him just keyed by like what appears to be just the lamp

you know when he's talking with his wife and stuff it's just like it looks and that's on stage by the way that's a that's oh that'll that'll do it that's when you get that's when you really get to have fun instead of fighting with like ah but there's no fixture over there it's like we'll build it you know yeah but you know sometimes on the show of a certain size you try to find location outside you know you could put stuff or you try to find neighborhoods that are receptive for you to put stuff so right um well i will let you go because i've kept you a little bit think he was a pleasure. Thank you for having me. Of course, man. Yeah, I'm going to shoot Sam a text now and let him know he spoke. Okay. Thank you. Cool. Take care, brother. Bye-bye.

Frame and Reference is an Albot production, produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so by going to frame and refpod.com and clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated. And as always, thanks for listening. I don't know.