Frame & Reference Podcast - 213: "Ballard" Cinematographer Gavin Kelly, ASC

Episode Date: October 9, 2025

On this episode of Frame & Reference I'm talking to Gavin Kelly, ASC about his work on Ballard!Enjoy!► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠F&R Online ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Support F&R⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Watch on YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Produced by Kenny McMillan► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Hello, and welcome to this, episode 213 of Frame and Reference. You're about to drop into a conversation between me, Kenny McMillan, and my guest, Gavin Kelly, ASC, DP of Ballard. Enjoy. You know, that actually, because I was reading a couple, or listening, reading, a couple interviews you did, and a bunch of times you did talk about, like, sort of the balance of health and not getting burnt out and, like, trying to give a thousand percent, but still balancing it. That seemed like a pretty important part of your journey. Well, I think maybe we came up in that interview specifically too. Yeah. I mean, I think it's always part of the

journey, but it is, it's kind of like the long, not the long game, but yeah, the long haul of it, right? I mean, and maybe just having been in the cemetery for a couple decades now, you know, it's like there's at least enough kind of trajectory that, you know, there's peaks and valleys and the roller coaster, right? We all have whatever, you know, respective journeys are. There's always peaks and valleys, but then trying to balance that out, you know, I have a family and all that and so all of that right so it's it's kind of a day-to-day year-to-year thing but every year's a little different but it's definitely part of it I have become more conscious in the past especially in the past I don't know handful of years uh not more conscious maybe just more proactive in terms of

trying to really balance that that out but you know because we all you know I don't know all the at least all the cinematographers and creative folks I know are very passionate about what you do you have to be right in order to pursue such a crazy line of work in a lot of ways But so there's that, and you kind of give you your all, and especially starting out, not that I mean, I, you know, starting out, I feel like I would just give my all not really think, you know, kind of throw everything else to the wayside, right? That's, that's just nothing, nothing surprising about that. But then as you get old, you kind of try to, as you get more experience or more comfortable and kind of know, no, you know yourself and kind of your strengths and the things you continue to work on and kind of professionally and personally, you kind of just try to balance that out. but it's a we're always a working process not to be too you know generic about it but i do feel like that's uh there's always stuff i'm working on yeah i mean that that is one thing that

i think probably once you get to your level uh this is less of a thought but like me and my girlfriend she she's a dancer right so we're both in the creative fields and and uh you know we've been dating for like six years and so obviously like life conversations start to happen and one of them is both of us going like, well, I'm not really expecting her to her. Obviously she can't do doing a physical, a literal physical job. She can't like dance forever. But she already works like in dance competitions and stuff like that. But both of us are kind of like, I don't see retirement. You know, I look at Deacons and I'm like, well, he's, you know, still kicking. He's still even operating. You know, so clearly you can do this until you physically can't. Or like, fuck, homeboy who shot. He's always got the hat on. What's his name? Older guy. Ed Lachman? Lockman? Yeah, Lockman's still kicking.

Oh, yeah, yeah, 100%. No, yeah, I mean, that kind of, yeah, the longevity and the path of it for sure. And then, you know, you, I mean, yeah, I mean, not, I only think so far ahead. But, well, you can only plan so far ahead. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly, so far ahead. But yeah, definitely thinking of just kind of longevity and knowing,

I think it's just maybe more, right, trying to find that sweet spot, which is not, I don't know if you ever exactly find it, but that sweet spot between, you know, kind of the drive and the push. and also kind of being okay with where things are this particular moment, which is kind of, you know, and knowing that you're going to content, can you need to grow and be able to share, you know,

your experiences and work with other, collaborate with other filmmakers and just, I mean, that's kind of one of the things that I'm always, that's drawn me to filmmaking in general and simit's obviously, too, was the collaboration aspect. So, I mean, as I continue along in my career, just the most exciting thing in me is, you know, obviously the relationships I had with direct, directors or producers or, you know, any in the crews that I work with, but then also meeting

new, you know, new filmmakers, new, you know, every, every new project's a new chance to kind of, I don't know, reinvigorate the passion in a different way and bring something to it. So it's a constantly new, right? I mean, what we do is a constantly, you know, there's a constant fresh, something, you know, every day is a bit of an adventure, right? So it's like something fresh is always brought in whether you're working with the same folks on a new project or, you know, or multiple season of a show. There's always, of course, there's going to be something new every season and every, you know. And then. And then. Or it's, you know, working with new filmmakers or younger filmmakers.

It's like, it's like a constant, I think it's kind of that, that infusion of constant, you know, new energy and perspectives that keep, keep me going, keep me excited all the time. So, yeah, I feel like, I can't remember what I was talking to about this, but some, you know, you'll hear a lot of regular folks, I guess, not the world, not regular folks, but I feel like there is kind of this strange resentment. or it's film professionals but also artists where you do get to like it's not that you know work work every day or uh work do a thing you love and you won't work a day if it's not necessarily but it is like that that sort of iterative the thing that invigorates you every day is the creative work which is fine right right and i think there there is there is a level of i want to call it selfishness but it's like i feel like especially in america there's push of like you're having too much fun that's not work I see right you know and I was find that

fascinating that's interesting I mean yes but I think well there's I think maybe I don't know if I'm extrapolating something that you're not saying but extrapolate away I don't know why I use that word I don't ever use that word but I'm not trying to be fancy but no but but I don't know if I'm bouncing off what you're saying or not but I think there's that yeah there's perception oh my gosh it's great you get to work with cameras you make movies and shows and it's fun every day but look, it's, yeah, I mean, I hope maybe I'm not paying the right. I mean, it's a, it's a ton of work, right? Yeah. The hours or a lot, that's, that kind of comes back to us first thing. Like, I don't know, you have to be really passionate about it. Either kind of have to be really passionate

or all in, or maybe this isn't the thing for you, right? Because it does take a ton of work, a ton of drive, a ton of push, a ton of hustle, frankly, you know what I mean, in terms of the, you know, trying to get a job and the next job. And it's kind of a constant, even though day to day it might be different, whether you're in the middle of production versus prep versus looking for the next job. But it's a constant, right? And it takes a lot, a lot of work beyond just what maybe what the general, I'm not the general public, maybe what folks think it is, you know, yes, it's like, oh my gosh, you get to make, you know, nice images and tell stories of it.

Yes, absolutely. I feel very fortunate. But it also work really hard. So it's like, you know, it's two sides. It does take a lot of, yes, there are definitely harder much. Much, you know, harder professions and more life and death perceptions that change the world in very immediate and direct ways. But, you know, what we do does, it does take a lot of work if you're really, if you're

really going for it. Yeah. Well, and my response is always like to that type of ideas is, sure, you know, working retail, I think sucks. Just in general, I don't think anyone loves that. But like the, the sort of greener pastures from, you know, I'll look at like, carpenters and I'm like that's like I can easily see myself oh yeah it's not because it's technically the same thing every day but it's like you're making new stuff sometimes like I but

it's you know it's it's working with your hand like even stuff like that I'm like oh I'd love to do that my buddy I've mentioned him a bunch but my buddy Kerry worked and his wife Jamie work it's legacy effects and I'm just like you guys have absolutely the coolest job like yes you get to make the power arm and grogo and shit I'm like yeah I would love to do that you know No, I can absolutely see an alternate version of, you know, sliding doors version of my life where exactly, it was more, you know, because yeah, absolutely, something that you know, working with your hands and it's creative, but there's a very immediate, tangible result. I mean, I guess we do that shooting wise, too, at the end of the day, you've, whenever you got in the can, you got in the can. But, uh, but yes, for sure. I mean, I think. And you know how to run a crew. Yes. I mean, yes. That's right. It's creative and technical and managerial, right? I mean, it's a lot of logistics and managerial. for as a summa chavra on the bigger project but yeah no i definitely um i don't know it is always fun to to think about what you'd be doing if you weren't in this uh as it kind of changes over time certain things i'm like oh yeah you know i kind of feel like i might do the same thing i was

interested in when i was in high school or or not you know but uh but yeah it's just like so what do you do to balance it because obviously if you go full in and especially having a family you know like that this is kind of a hack question yeah that's a late night question like how do you know how do you balance having to be all in because it's very easy for you know i know a lot of dPs who are older than us and and you know still not single like oh no but just like you know family didn't really pop it yeah yeah but then also it's my therapist uh told me about you know the three uh three legs of the stool right there's your personal life your your family life so to speak and then your work life. And if any leg on the stool is short, you know, still topples

over. Yes. How do you personally balance those legs? Uh, sometimes better than others. That's a, it's not going to a lot. You know, like, uh, I, I, I don't know. I mean, I am, I'm very fortunate that my wife Danielle and I've been together a long time. My girlfriend's also called Danielle. Oh, yeah, no, there you go, the Danielle. It's like, so we're, I, I, I, a relationship. And yes, it's child, you know, it's a childhood time. She works really are. She's a, she's a elementary school teacher. Oh, damn. And, and, And yeah, she's, I mean, she's, I mean, she's, she's great at it. And she works really hard and puts kind of his all in as well. And we have our son, our son Emerson is in seventh to start seventh grade.

And so, yeah, we have, you know, so all that, all that's happening. And we have, we kind of do the juggle. And then when I'm on a longer form project, you know, the dynamic has to kind of shift. And it's, it's a lot. But she definitely takes on a lot of the weight. And we kind of, but we do the juggle back and forth. So it's a constantly evolving thing. And over time, we've gotten better at it, right? And we've had some very challenging times with trying to do the juggle. And then, you know, it, right, every year different depending on what's going on. But I do have to say, I'm just personally very fortunate that I have a partner that that we can really, you know, we're in it together and really can work on it together and have been in the long haul. So that's super for, and I realize how fortunate

that is. So it's a lot of props to, uh, to my wife. and kind of our family, you know, and our parents as well and everything. So, but yeah, I don't know. I mean, I don't, I'm not any, I know we've been talking about this role, but I'm not like any, I don't know how, I don't have the answers. I don't, you know, I'm not, you know, great at it all the time, but do try to figure it out. And, you know, I think one thing having been together a long time is that, you know, not

to get too, but we do, because we've been through a lot, right? I mean, it's every, each new situation that the specifics might be different. in terms of whether I have to go to town or whether she has this going on at work or, you know, or struggling something else and then what's going on with our family. So it's like all the parameters might be slightly different each, you know, year to year every few months, but we've gotten pretty good at adapting and kind of retooling. But it's always a constant thing. And it's not easy.

Well, it kind of goes back to sort of what you're saying about not thinking too far ahead and stuff. It's like I have also found that a lot of deepies are just creative people in general. There is a reason why a lot of them become, uh, maybe obsessed with, uh, meditation or, or,

or any of that thing where it's like that you kind of do have to live in, you know, especially with strikes and COVID and all this stuff. It's like, if you're in this for the long haul, it's better to not think ahead. It's better to live today, you know? Yeah,

I mean, the hardest thing of the way, I mean, maybe I, yeah, it's like, because I do think ahead. It's not,

I may maybe I misrepresented, but it's more like, right? It's like to marvel about it. It's like the multiverse, right? It's like if this project goes, I'm trying, you know, if this project, if Project A moves forward, you know, then this scenario is going to happen or maybe this, you know, feature I've been talking about it's going to go finally in a few months it pushed or maybe this show is moving or maybe there's going to be another season. So you're kind of like gaming out all these, you know, scenarios and trying to work it out.

And you can only go so far with that, right? Of course, it's like you, like you said, you don't know for sure. but at least you can think ahead a little bit and you get a little better like okay so i'll do this and this and then something else may come up and change but in terms like between all the the flux of that everything and flux of that or you know you're on a project they end up going longer whatever but the flux of that i do in terms of what i try to do to kind of balance out i mean what i definitely kind of always fall back to is i i mean i love shooting i love centrally i love story town but i also love still photography like just yeah just me with the camera

that's what I can kind of, you know, when I have some downtime or between things or prepping or kind of getting ahead of the, it's like just me with my arsenal cameras, I can go out and shoot, whether shoot photography or Lansing or just go, you know, like I can go and always have that creative kind of outlet with a camera, which I love, and that kind of helps keep me going, you know, it keeps me kind of, you know, along with other kind of artistic influences or input, you know, of all kind of, you know, all the usual things, but that, that'll keep me kind of engaged day to day. I always have, you know, I seem to have a camera around and doing something. And so, you know, and as, as you know, like, that's a bottomless pit, you know, with

anything, right? I can shoot stills and, I mean, just, you know, I'm going to start working a flight room and then we're going to, it's like, you guys just go there around the hole. And, uh, which I think I get definitely from my dad as well. My dad's an amateur photographer. And he's the one who first, you know, gave me a camera on us, you know, and so, and my grandfather's law and on my mom's side so and our family so there's definitely a lot of that in there but um yeah i mean but you're right i mean in terms of like finding a balance and or finding kind of the meditated you know for me it's exercise and other stuff i mean i play music a little bit so it's like you know there's all these different things but um i don't know

yeah we really went down the the the rival in this i dig it i'm a rabble guy that's how i love us I have to, you know, this, this, this show has really taught me how to focus a little bit because, because I, you know, I will instantly ask a question that I, or I used to at least, I try not to anymore, uh, about something later. And I'm like, hold on, we got to go back to this other, like I. Oh, yeah, yeah. This little exactly what you're saying, the fucking multiverse over here on my notepad, like, all right, no, don't. That's late. Like, don't. Um, yeah, I, uh, the photography thing, I think is so one of, because like, you'll, you'll follow. all these amazing dPs on instagram and they're you know uh david mullen is just out here

posting some of the most incredible photography and he's like i was just walking through prague or whatever and took this and you're like is that a still like what is that you know a cell phone shot you're like what right right it's just a great way to keep sharp you know 100% every day yeah and it's and it's uh no that's great yeah david's work and you notice that he but he's such a obviously great survivor and photographer but he's he's all he's really beautiful light. Like, it's always gold. It's a lot of gold now. Like he's, so he's getting to, you know, and he's really beautiful compositions. I love his work. But yeah, no, I think it's, it stays sharp, but it's also like, for me, I'm always in one

stage or another of any given number of projects. Like, right. So it's like, or sometimes I'm working on stuff that, you know, because I shoot film, I shoot digital, different formats, all kinds of stuff. So for me, it's like, you know, it's always experimentation or it's, of course, keeping up on the latest gear because that is part of it, right? That's part of our job. And to know what, you know, to kind of, you just kind of like have to exercise all those muscles all time with what's, what's out there and what's coming out. But then also, you know, there might be something I'm interested in, whether it's, I don't know, some aspect of film photography or lensing or some old lenses I found that, you know, and they're looking to rehouse. But it's like,

I'm always experimenting for something that might come into play for a project coming up, right? Sometimes it's very specific, like, oh, I'm looking for a way to approach, looking for this certain quality you've, you know, characteristics and lenses that I don't know what I'm a project I'm using for, but I'm really curious about. So I'll keep that in the back of my head or on some list in list, lists of my iPhone for, you know, potential this or that for project. Or there might be like, you know, there's like a film coming up down the road that like maybe is even months out or a year out, but there's certain things that are new, you know, certain ideas that are spinning around that I can work on while I have some time. You know, it's like, so there's this,

or it might be probably that I just wrapped that. I was like, oh, I wish, you know, would be able to do more of this or that. So it's like, you're constantly, this state of, you have to, at least for me, I can only speak for me, but I always have to be some level of engagement with all these things. Very, I can only, you know, when I wrap a big project, yes, it's nice to have some downtime for a week or something in reset. But after that first week, I feel like the time gets shorter the longer. I don't like what used to be like, you know, I'd run out, maybe it's just, you know, experience. But, you know, I was like, oh my gosh, I need a couple weeks off now. I'm actually like, no, okay, you know, three days, it cut up some

sleep, reset, okay, you know, the gears are already turning on the next thing or looking for the next, you know, the next thing to experiment with. So it's like a constant, I always feel like there's, and there's, you know, there's short form projects that come up or it's like, you know, there's just, there's always something. There's always a handful of things going on. So that's good. Well, and the, uh, I feel like with experience comes the ability to reset quicker. Yeah. Like, I find the worst time. And I guess this is slightly obvious, but the worst time is having that giant break because then you get out of the habit

you know it's hard it's hard to maintain the that uh yeah rigor you know when uh suddenly you have three months to just twill your thumb like I just got back from a wedding and then on Tuesday I'm flying out to Italy for a all right but we're going to be there for like nine days uh because we're going a little early

and and just that this week in between uh I have felt because I intentionally didn't schedule anything, you know, because what's right. But I, I have, I started designing like a hot, like a barbecue sauce. Like I started more. Well, you know, I live, I live over here in Japan town. So I was like, wouldn't it be great if there was like an everything sauce that you could put on like Elpesto tacos, but also like pizza, but had like Japanese influence and stuff like. Oh, that's what. But I caught myself at like three in the morning, like researching like what goes. Oh,

Yeah. No Miyagi sauce. I'm like, what am I doing? Like, I could, I can just take the week off, like, watch a movie or something, you know. Well, that's better, but that's your, you have that mind, right? It's like that same thing. I'll be up in the middle of night. Some little, like, very easy you can go down, right? We can go down these rabble. And because we're creative or critical, it's like, you know, the gears get going on something. And usually for me, it's like multiple things at once, right? So I'm not joking about the endless iPhone notes. I mean, I have like, I have to categorize all these, you know, threads to come back to. Otherwise, it's like, you know, obviously there's certain things are prioritized over others, but it's like, I can come back to something several months later and be like, okay, now I have time to, you know, a minute to dive into this or explore this more. But yes, yeah, I can definitely relate to the 3am, you know, warm holes. And then you're always like, you check your calendar, you're like, oh, I'm supposed to be somewhere in the morning, you know.

Oh, yeah. I need to go sleep. Are you, are you, are you, are you like a big gear, like does the new developments excite you, or is it just more like, I have to stay up on this because it's my job? Well, some, that's a good question. It does excite me. I'm always excited for the new, right? But I'm not a gearhead.

Like, I don't, I mean, yes, I actually, yes, I have to, you have a general sense of obviously the latest camera, cameras or sensors or lenses, but I'm not, I'm not super techie. Like, I don't, I'm somewhere in the middle. Like, I know that's part of, you know, I need to know, and I'm curious on what that can do for me creatively, you know, the XYZ, but I'm also like, you know, when I shoot the camera test and the lens tests and I do all the things, but it's, but I'm not like, I, I try, because I can, I can spin out forever on that. That's it talking about three in the morning, right? Like, and so sometimes I do. If there's like, if I'm, I'm whittling it down to some aspect that, I don't know,

you know, a couple sets of lenses or, or, or, you know, what the differences of these two cameras, I can go down, but I always have to kind of cut myself and come, come back on it. But I always like, I'm always more, I'm just generally more drawn creatively story-wise, character-wise, sure, visually than before anything else. So, but, you know, the tech is great too, right? I mean, because it's allowing you, I'm always trying to push it and push whatever it is, the new thing. So I run into the issue of being a collector.

Yeah. And so, for instance, like this guy, it's a, it's an eight-foot quasar tube. but it was on sale for 200 bucks it retails for like two grand I have no idea what I'm supposed to do with this it's the size it goes literally from floor to ceiling and I'm like what am I just couldn't pass up

I was like well I need an eight foot tube light someday and you will and you will or you will find or it will come up right it's just the right moment some hallway or I don't know the world's largest backlight yeah you know what those questions are great eight foot yeah I see it

There it is. Yeah, it's been there the whole time. Look at that. It's RGB. It's nice. But I am much more. Well, because like before I really started getting into cinematography for the longest time, I still write for him, but I write for video coalition. And a lot of that job was gear review.

And so I have kind of burnt out on it, but I still have that muscle. And I get all these PR emails. Like, I'm the first one to know about anything. And it has simultaneously, like, been exciting. but then also you start to see the code in the matrix and then like something will come out and go, oh, that's roughly like that. All right, cool.

You know, even if it's incredible, you're like, I got it, you know, a little, little. Right. No, well, that's interesting. I mean, for me, too, it's like I, yes. I mean, obviously, I'm very interested in the latest tech. But also for me, it's like it has to be hands on. So like I can only go so far until I need to just,

whatever, it's a new camera or lenses or whatever. I have just get out and start testing and working with it for, to mean something to me because, you know what I mean? Otherwise, I mean, trust me, I'll go. I mean, I'll go, I'll go on YouTube, watch the reviews. Like, I'll do that like everybody else and see, or, you know, and obviously the, you know, from the manufacturers or from that, you know, all the companies, all this, I'll do all the stuff because I'm curious, right?

And then you follow the thread. The next thing, I do, trust me, I just like anybody else I get it with them. But at some point, I'm like, okay, now I just need to go out and work with this or not. I can just feel it out because at the end of the day, that's that's maybe that's why like still photography when i'm not shooting cinematography wise because it allows it to be very direct in that way you know because um it's just me in a camera lenses it's you know well the other side of it for me it's like because i work you know indie side primarily documentary there is a little bit more of like hey what

camera you shoot it you know like oh for sure it's less like what do we do creatively and it's more like post has these things. So you have, you're like, I have all these cannons and they're like, ah, we shoot Sony now, it's all right.

Well, you know, because they're not going to rent it. We don't have money in documentaries. So now I got to invest. No, 100%. No,

100%. That's a big part of it. No, that can definitely, absolutely is a big part of it. And, but yeah, you're deeper.

But, but I mean, obviously it changes so quickly. Every day. It's constantly, it's the new thing and the next thing. and it's coming out and just came out and it's it's still out you know it's already obsolete but it's not really but it's like that's there only so much i can uh keep up on all that all the time

like you know well and to your point i just bought uh an f55 oh yeah and it's funny because it's you know i think came out like 2013 or whatever and i've been testing it on stuff because we're using it on this doc and like it's still great like i don't know why they keep needing I know why they keep releasing stuff but it's like the RE model of like we're going to make one, you're going to deal with that for almost 20 years and then maybe we make a new one. I much prefer

that. Thank you. Thank you for giving me one. Maybe it's a different size now. Love that. But like, I just we don't need to be doing this. I mean, it is absolutely true. And yes, there are incremental, of course. I mean, the train will always keep moving

forward in that regard. And it should capitalism. But yes, it has to, right? Well, and, you know, the art does, you know, like, the more tools, the better. I feel like the more tools, the better, right? But for options. But you, like you said, FD5, this is a good example. It's not like, you know, or like the Lexa Mini for that, you know, like you said, the original Lexa Mini, that's still, it's still a great camera, right? just because there's the mini LF and the 35 and now there's 35 extreme. It's like, you're all great improvements. I shot all of them, but, well, not the extreme, but the mini is great. It's like some mini, right?

It's still a great sensor. I mean, it's, so same thing. Obviously, lenses are the, you know, lenses are the most obvious example of that too, right? I mean, because all these old lenses you can pull out and rehouse and that's where we're all out now in this stuff. So I think that's the most exciting development is people, you know, being able to, I don't know if it, obviously it's like a manufacturing thing now where people can, not only 3D printing, but just, but just like, I guess CAD, like really

specific CAD modeling and scanning and stuff where people can take all these old photo lenses. Like I would love to know when that started half. Like obviously, Duke Close sort of. Right. Maybe not famously, but like in my head kicked off that whole thing. But who was like the first speed. Well, fuck, I guess it was Kubrick, right? He was using that NASA lens. Modified NASA lens for Right. Very long. Yeah, I mean,

I don't know when I don't know when that all that started, but because no one was just making mounts, you know, in like the 20s. Right. Well, I mean, that's, I, yeah, I'm not super, it's all a bit fuzzy, the further ways back for me, but, but, but I do,

it's interesting. I mean, there have, there's always been a sense of, obviously the next technology the next leaps but uh i don't know re not repackaging but kind of revisiting older tech and update you know it's like that that's a constant kind of process right um but yeah the lenses thing is great i mean like not to mention you know like one of my favorite i'll just go out with my little canon a1 and like canon fds and you know what i mean like you know I have all the other fancier, more extensive stuff. I love just go and shoot.

That's why, you know, 35, it's like, it's, you know, it's great. You know, it doesn't have to be, you know, and then being able to shoot with comparable versions of those FDs on, you know, the cinema stuff is great, too. So it's like, I love it. I love the lens thing because it's, it's endless and it's, and then being able, now, now that, now that we're in the next, not the next phase, but the phase of being able to, to kind tune and customize and create a whole, you know, whole like concoction of lens, you know, Frankenstein lenses, yeah, for specific.

And Sasaki on your side. Yeah. But now and every, you know, zero optic and all of it like it, it's like, yeah, Alex is great. So it's like, it's all, that's what I love them. It's like, you know, because for every new piece of modern tech that comes out that is, you know, moving things along, I don't know, looking things along, but, you know, it's like the next things. Yeah.

which is important, right? But it's like, no, let's see how we can keep re, you know, it's, that's exciting. It's the old and new that keep having to get, you know, getting the soup together, right? And create something new that keeps it really interesting for me. Because otherwise, frankly, it would get, I get the K's and the pixels. And it's like I can only go so far with all it before I get a little antsy. Well, that's been the nice thing at least that I've noticed is, because I, I, I think, think you're only a little bit older than me, but like the, I, you know, my educational,

uh, journey, I guess started with D.E, you know, in college. And to watch everything. I like, kind of try to think of myself. I'm trying to be like a, a camera historian in that way. Yes, good. Just, just because I'm around students a lot and, you know, like, right and stuff. It's all vaguely educational. And I'm trying to remind younger filmmakers often like, hey, I know it seems like whatever you've got is limited in some way. Trust me, this is the big, like, you're, you're fine. Do not go buy something. Just whatever you've got works, man.

Yes. Like, the fact that you can shoot 24P is great. You know, not having to log and capture is great. Yes, all of it. No, right? Oh, my gosh, DVX 100 is still a beautiful camera. But it's true. No, I mean, yeah.

anything that's what i mean anything of the past 10 10 15 you're really it didn't take it any of it uh it's going to be light years of what we started off with yeah i mean it's um which is really you know which is which is super interesting and and then yet i'm it's it's always fascinating to see how there's a curiosity right um with the right obviously you know still of course there's a trickle of things shot on film these days but interest, you know, from next generations coming up and filmmakers in general, right, it varies, but there's, you know, interest in that technology, that aesthetic and that look and that process, right, in forms. It's like, which is, which is what's super excited me because, you know,

that everyone's all, I think in their own way and with their own kind of perspective is trying to approach how the best way to tell the story, but it doesn't always have to be the way everyone else does, even though I think, you know, I think when folks start out, obviously, the tendency, of course, is to like, oh, I wanted to look like this. I wanted to look like that, right? I love this. Oh, and they shot this on that camera. And so I'm going to get this camera and it's going to look like this. And it's like, well, no, I mean, you know, talk to your production designer. See if it'll look like that. And remember that lighting and composition and, you know, having a perspective is all important, right? It's, that is the kind of flip side of,

I feel like, I mean, so there's always been that sense. But even when I was starting out, a long time ago you know it's of course you were kind of imitating you know you're starting you had to start from somewhere

right so it's like how do I get this look what do I make it look like as what did they do technically to make it look like this and then you realize pretty quickly that it's of course much more than that

but I think these days the only tendency I get a little queasy about is is because there's all the new tech coming out of time and there's all the media around it

right and then but you can look up any camera, any lens, or anything that's about to come out or just come out or it's been out a year ago or two years, and you can find reviews and insight and great, great stuff, right? A lot of perspective, a lot of all the tech you can imagine, sample, you know, all the stuff, which is super, a huge vital resource that we didn't have in the same way starting out. You kind of have to still, for me, it's like, there's only so much of that. There's only so much of that you should do it. That's what I'm saying.

You should get out there, just get, you know, get your hands on a couple of things, rented or demo something and like start dueling it feel out what what is the best way for what you're trying to do whether it's documentary narrative or anything or small scale large scale it's all the same process because otherwise i don't know i feel like folks can sometimes i'm talking to younger filmmakers or folks starting out and you know at the time you can get lost and all that's the text stuff too much early on i feel like and it's important because you it's and i understand it helps you you you know to feel like you you have your feet are on solid ground right if you So if I understand how, you know, you know, I understand this sensor versus this sensor.

If I understand this, and it's all important to have the foundation, but it's also just as important to find your way of telling, you know, of using the camera to capture things and to create, you know, emotion and the character and story and all that kind of stuff. Well, that's the reason that, you know, the American cinematographer manual is separate from the magazine, you know, there's a reference. That's a very good point. That's a very good point. But you're not reading the reference.

but you can just reference it. You don't know. Yeah. Yeah. But I guess this does kind of dovetail nicely. Because you shot like all the American horror stories, right? No, no. I came in, I mean, there's many, many seasons.

No, I came in, when did I come in? I came in season six, like halfway through when there's kind of a shift in the look. And I shot three other seasons after that. So somewhere kind of in the middle. And then it's gone on to shoot several more scenes. So no, I came in. No. That's how you shot up to season six.

That's bad reason. Yeah, no, no, I came in. No, no. Yeah, no, there's other great some jobs, including Michael, Michael Goy. I had to shot several seasons kind of really helped to find the look. But, yeah, I kind of came in and shot several seasons in the middle there, which is great, which is great because every season is totally different. Well, all game. Well, it's a, like, it's a fantastic series in that regard where it's like each one, I kind of love, you know, what was that other, that Daniel, not Daniel, not Daniel,

but Harry Potter what's his name? Harry Potter I don't know what are YouTube plays Harry Potter Oh Radcliffe Yeah Radcliffe

He that show he did Holy something Whatever but it was like Each season was vaguely related It was only It was the same cast But it was like a different set And American Horror Story

does the same thing where it's like That's fun That has to be fun for the filmmakers Like to be able to shift so much So that's what I was going to ask about you with American Horse story is like hat dude is it a brand new

prep process for each seat like do you just is it everything else is gone and we're starting something new as if it were like a completely different film or like are you borrowing what's that iterative process right right no that's a great question the short answer is the kind of really distilled down answers yes

every season's due I mean like you said some of the cat I can only speak for the seasons I don't some of the cast would return and you know or be cast for this particular, you know, that season. The story's obviously different. Some of the scenes started to tie in, it says previous seasons,

even including, you know, like a poplip that I was on. But, and it's interesting coming in the middle of kind of the run of that show in a lot of ways. I was, of course, very aware of what, you know, the earlier seasons that kind of define, you know, so kind of iconic seasons that are very, you know, had certain things stylistically that we'd definitely have become kind of part of the DNA of the show a little bit.

But then it was kind of finding that line of, okay, well, I know what the American Horror Story has been and what people love about it, what Brian Murphy and the whole team, you know, there's certain things they would stress and emphasize per given season. But also, we'd all bring ideas to the table as well. You know, there might be certain references and want to kind of push in a different direction or, you know, so it was every season. But the way I approached you for sure was every season, okay, what is this season about? Not that I'm forgetting everything ever has ever done because there's certain kind of tonal things, even though every season might be different time period and a different playing a little bit, different genre or different kind of lineage of horror in this season.

So we'd always kind of redefine. Like, you know, I'm trying to think a couple really extreme examples. Like, you know, the last season of horse story shot was 1984, which was or was NHS 94, which is very, that was a look. It was very much, you know, it's such a fun season. It's very much 80s, late 70s, 80s slasher films. And the story was very, we're at a camp in the woods and the whole thing. And so all the kind of, you know, we're definitely playing and all that, but still also keeping it within the horror story kind of world.

But, you know, kind of lens choice wise, lighting wise, all of that was informed a lot about those references versus something like the previous season, which was Apocalypse, which was calling back to some of the earlier seasons of horror stories. and had this kind of really operate you know i mean it was such a wild season in terms of the end of the world and bunkers and i mean it was just all over the place in a really wonderful exciting fun way and we did a lot of candlelight and it was just a whole another aesthetic completely different so very controlled um so i mean that that's that shows so much fun and there's the you know both from the scripts and the the concepts and the tone you're you're definitely encouraged to kind of go for it

guess is the short of the short of it definitely keeps you on your toes in terms of how ambitious the show is story wise and character wise and set piece wise and it's horror and drama and you got the ensemble cast it's like it's all of it right everything so it's uh it's a lot of fun in that way yeah you know it's funny i just realized like kind of the same i was i was watching uh ballard and uh when i got to the amazon page it was like explore the world of bosh and i was like what are you talking about this i was like i didn't didn't know there was this many Bosch's, first of all. Also, I didn't know this was a Bosch story.

I didn't realize we had a Bosch universe. There's a Bosch universe. Yeah, there's the universe. The Boschiverse. Yes. Do you look, because I was watching it, I watched the first few episodes, and I was struck by, like, how comforting the look. Because I guess I haven't watched, like, someone is drilling in this building now,

and it's incredibly distracting. I hope that doesn't come out. on the recording. But I guess I haven't watched a police procedural in a while. Like I loved house back in the day. I feel like this ballard sort of had that vibe to me of like, oh, I forgot we used to make shows like this. Oh, that's good.

Where it felt very hony, I guess, in a way. You know, like a classic. It felt classical. But I did want to ask like kind of in the same vein. It's an American Horror Story thing. It's like, do you look at, was there like a mandate to keep kind of a Bosch looking happening or like what how did you because it is you know like there's like some very strong like beautiful backlight type stuff that maybe

modern cinematography would say like oh that's a little too theatrical we don't do that anymore a lot of good color interplay you know yeah yeah yeah no it's a good question yeah no for sure I mean it definitely is you know stepping into is definitely out of the Bosch world and the spinoff you know, definitely technically a spinoff of Bosch that introduced her character, out of his character at the end of the last Bosch season to kind of springboarding the show. So for sure, the mandate was, you know, had to feel like it was one foot in the Bosch universe, but clearly from every, all the creatives, it was supposed to have its own look and kind of feel and personality. And so it's like, right, right, two paradoxical things a little bit, right?

So what that meant from like keeping the Bosch DNA was like a big part of the Bosch world, Obviously, it's an L.A. show. It's set in L.A. It's Michael Conley. World authenticity of locations and all of that, you know, there's some sets. But the Bosch was very much grounded in the, you know, a lot of location work. The locations had to feel real. Yes, there's design. Yes, there's lighting. And it always had to feel very ground and very real. That was kind of paramount to everything. Ballard had one foot in that in the sense that, look, again, locations-wise. It's like we spent a lot of time in prepping that first kind of pilot, that first episode

with the showrunners and Jet, the director and everyone, the designer, Ray, and the whole team producers in finding the sweet spot of that, right? Like we had these locations all to L.A., but they had to be based on what they were in the script geographically makes sense, right? It wasn't one of those shows where it's like, you know, we're on the west side and then they'll be, you know, they hop in the car and all of a sudden they pop out, you know, magically go through the, you know, the portal of time and space. to pop out in the grand theft auto six effect of like two streets down you're in

Santa Monica two streets up you're in West LA or West LA which is fine you know another shows and other films that can work but for this is very much like still keeping that sense or and even if the audience didn't you know doesn't know that that's just a big kind of man it's there's that but something we were kind of building those just in early conversations with all was was was a little bit of this like vibrant noir like you should feel grounded and but because of Ballard's perspective and character and this kind of comment another concept kind of, like I like to call like emphasizing empathy, like, yeah, she's running this

cold case unit. There's, they're trying to bring this dignity and kind of respect to these victims that everyone's forgotten about and the families, you know, someone disappeared 15 years ago and they're still a grieving mother or family that's been, their lives have been wrecked by this. And so it's like, there's a bit more kind of introspection and kind of thoughtfulness. It's just a different character than Bosch, right? So, and her, she's very kind of, very motivated. motivated and focused and but also very kind of controlled and you know it's like there's a

so it's like for me it's I think of it as like a personality of the character in the show so like the locations are I think but we brought a little more color to it a little more kind of a little softness like it's a lens choice thing as well like um DNAs so yeah it's DNAs it's fine I mean I've shot the DNAs before too and I mean I tested a whole bunch of stuff and circled back on the DNAs it was just the right fit for this show in terms of it's still a micromodic presence, you know, it's a vintage gas, but not quite, you know, as gauzy. And I still didn't, you know, I didn't want everything to bow out. So there's still kind of a portrait quality when we wanted it.

And we mixed in some other lenses and the helios lenses too for more kind of portrait looks. You kind of get into her head. So it's like all of that is part of a little softer palette and kind of painterly touch, but still, you know, still a drama to it's still lighting-wise too. You know, there's this basement called E. Colchese unit set, which was supposed to be kind of a forgotten space in the LAPD. So it's like old fluorescence and practicals mixed in and storing desks in the corner. It's kind of dusty.

So at least especially in the first few episodes when they're moving in and settling into that space, this kind of rag tag team. It's like that's where we're doing the mixed color temperature and being able to build and control that. And just so I was trying to kind of have my kicking you to too, right, have like a bit of a softer kind of slightly, slightly, I don't want to say glossy is not the word I've used for the show. But like, yeah, a little bit. It's a comfortable, pleasing image, but still be grounded, you know, and, you know, I wasn't trying to go for kind of a network pop sheen to it either. So it's like kind of try to find the sweet spot. And I kept what we kept coming back to was kind of the character of Baller, especially

thinking about in the first couple episodes how she's, it's very kind of clean and controlled and she's leading us through spaces, you know, it's kind of, we try to like pair things down, keep the camera moving kind of the cadence with her cadence, if that makes sense. And like, so you really get a sense of how she navigates the space and how she navigates the world. And then from there, the season goes on the, you know, where the season goes. There's ups and downs and all kinds of crazy stuff that happens to, as they go along, you know, her and the unit, you know, action sequences and all kinds of stuff. But it's all like starting off with character and kind of personality of characters out the way I've tried to approach it.

Yeah. The, um, the cold case room is like two. border. I'm always fascinated by when people start mixing color temps or just introducing color that isn't necessarily dietic. You know, on Wick, you've got green

helios tubes. So it's like, okay, we know that's green. But like I was saying, like the sun coming, it is very golden. And I was wondering, is that just a color temperature plus grade thing? Or are you going, like, RGB on these lights to actually get them to push? Like, are you shooting, you know, the classic one for me, which kind of, I stopped doing kind of because it's really, well, in any case, like shooting 4,300 so that you do see all the color, but then it might kind of kind of, but what was the approach there? It was definitely, it was definitely in camera, it was definitely lighting wise. So, I mean, not to say we didn't push or enhance in the grade here and there.

Like, with our lead definitely was a rich lot, like I wanted to, we worked with Walter Opato. to shop our colors and he's great yeah also it's great um she's kind of a maestro of a bit of a without going to the weeds too much like it definitely a bit of a film it curve and look in there i know it's a very generic thing to say but we kind of find the sweetly thought with that with our own kind of color shifts so there's a little bit of kind of alchemy in the in the let but like the cool case unit being the most obvious example the color that's there is the color that's there so we yeah i mean we really a big thing for me as soon as we everyone started conceptualizing that's that's that's set and talking about what it should feel like and look like. I was like, yeah, definitely

we should lean into this mixed color temperature feel. We should feel these fluorescence are all mismatched and some are older. And that was, of course, just as much production design in terms of what you see as our lighting control. And so we put our own tubes in all those. We, you know, we controlled the whole space. We did let the sun come in a bit warm and started to shift through the season a little bit. It wasn't always going to be in a golden stream, but we were kind of pushing it a little bit, especially in the first couple episodes to kind of set, set, you know, just kind of set the bar of where, where we can navigate, what the world could feel like.

But definitely it was a conscious choice in that. So that, it's not just like we wouldn't post and started, you know, the color started just split toning it. It was more, and we, and we controlled, we dial in how much kind of green and say, and we won different units. And then we can shift on the fly. So a given scene was Cynthia Pushick, another DP that we shared the show with who's great. We, you know, the goal for both of us, and we'd make sure that both of us had the range

to shift and pull different scenes, right? So, like, we didn't want this trickier sunlight. We played software units, the sky panels, and, you know, and obviously different time of day. We could get as kind of in the much, you know, get as specifically we wanted with that kind of daylight feel versus the fluorescence and how much color shift there was or not, right? So, but the green, kind of the cool tones.

And I really loved, for some reason, that was just really in my brain where you're prepping was, this feel of, you know, slightly cooler shadows and the skin tones and then this kind of otter daylight that would somehow kind of pierce because it's supposed to be a somewhat split-level basement. It's not totally submerged stuff.

I wouldn't at least establish the idea that you could have this light that kind of made it down into there on just one wall, right? Like some of the daylight made it while, so it felt a little hot and spicy in relation. It's more like what it would feel like than necessarily what it would completely look like if that makes sense.

It's emotional lighting. Yeah. So it is a little, it's tricky. Yeah, and maybe, you know, I don't tend to self-reflect on my own work, which can do other projections. But I'm always, I guess I always am trying to find the, on a given project, like, where's this, we bought for the story we're telling, the personality of the, the story we're telling, like, in between realism and, you know, emotional, I don't know, kind of, I guess,

emotional barometer, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, like, sometimes it's a little bit more of this or that. And I think I wanted to definitely establish on this show earlier on that, what I really loved about the story and the style of going all over in Los Angeles, the story, you know, very, you know, very Michael Connolly, very Bosch. Like, you go to all the, you know, all, every stretch of every area in L.A., different neighborhoods and different characters. And, you know, so I wanted to feel that when you enter these different communities and neighborhoods and firearms, you felt

this color shift, you felt the, as opposed to unifying everything. I actually, you know, it was, yes, there's a uniform, you know, there's something you open a door and now we're in, you know, Alice in Wonderland or something. It's more like, I want to feel that, you know, and it's production design, of course, in wardrobe and costume and everything, as much as much as much like we were building this tapestry of Los Angeles.

So you went in this area, this given episode, and you'd feel, you know, the texture of this or the patterns, your color palettes or, you know, of this particular environment versus this other area. And obviously night exterior is a great example to build all the kind of different urban color environments. So it is a little pushed, a little heightened.

But I would also go, you know, night here, Sears, and this, of course, take a lot of in with locations, you know, have a lot of reference stills of what was actually there and then be able to kind of build off what was authentically there and, of course, shape and do our own things. But we definitely want to feel like a Los Angeles show because, I mean, you know, to be frank, it's like there's not a lot of Los Angeles shows these days. And so. I was going to be what part of being Hoover to shoot in? Well, you know, and I, you know, and I, you know, and not to like, we don't again, that too much, but it's like, I was very conscious, you know, we shot this few months

ago, I was very conscious that we're very and felt very fortunate to be shooting a show that's in L.A. For L.A., about L.A., it's all about leaning into all that. And fortunately, you know, that comes from Michael Connolly and the producers and the show run. It's very much like, they want to see L.A., right? It's like, this is an L.A. show. It's very specific about where it takes place. That's part of the character show. All of that idea comes from the Bosch world. It's like, okay, now how we do that, this character and this story. It's to still feel we want to highlight it we want to see the watch want to see them on the street we want to see them by the beach we want to see them you know it's like yes you know I know you know and it so much

of everything you know everything a lot these days is shot you know like you said that's like the joke right South Africa for L.A. or something it's which is great look that's part of that's part of that's part of and that's part of what we do cinematativers right it's a lot of magic tricks but I was I wanted to really be able to lean in and highlight that and you know really be able to feel you uh you know whether you're driving around or, you know, all these locations really feel the locations and not kind of, you know, because sometimes we are having to hide things or shoot around, you know, or the opposite, right? When you're shooting L.A. for New York, shooting L.A. for Zoologh. Oh, we got to bring out the palm cheese or, you know, make it feel softer sunlight. You've got that one quarter of century.

Yeah, of course. That looks right. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. Oh, are we going to be able to paint out that one, that one, you know, oh my gosh, I don't know, and agonize over that. No, this was like, no, lean in, go for it. We're shooting where we, the story takes place. What a beautiful gift these days. So, yeah. That must have also felt you're from, well, I guess you're from San Diego. I'm from San Diego, yeah. I mean, I've lived here since 2000, but yeah.

But in any case, like being able to, uh, I, it, in my, I would be excited at least to be able to highlight, like you said, there's not a lot of stuff shot here. So to be able to highlight your hometown in that way probably is gratifying in a way, you know, to remind you. 100%. This is still, this is still nice. yeah no 100% it was great it was great with the you know obviously working to get props to the crew and the team all around which a lot of this this especially the the gne team i've worked with on all the way back to horror story a lot a lot of the team and through several shows and great team and same thing so it's like you know wonderful crew here camera department ace camera team and so it's it's all part of that too like uh being able to work with a lot of crew i've worked with i've been fortunate over the years to do, maybe compare to some folks

do a lot of work in L.A. I mean, I did some Wutang show on some of a pilot, I saw a lot of stuff in New York for a few years too, but you know, being able to shoot this show in L.A. for sure and be able to take advantage of all what's great about shooting in L.A.

So it's nice. How do you go to like I'm fascinated, not even as just like a cinematography exercise, but just as like an emotional thing, you know, getting uh, becoming one with the city is like how do you how do you decide what a neighborhood looks like like how do you when we're heightening the reality of the situation like what what are those things that make

it feel like china town like the arts district like venice like what are you doing because obviously you could do the fucking mexico tobacco filter and be like it's he still like but uh what how does how does the neighborhood speak to you for you to make well that kind of depends on the scene right. So it would always start, of course, with locations and the designer. So Ray Yamagad is a production writer. It was great. And we're all, of course, on the same page for the beginning. And this prep process at the beginning is of a new show is really finding, again, what does that mean for this show? So like, Ray was very much adam. And again, the show runs as a director on like, we would look at a location, kind of whittling down the potential locations for a given scene or sequence that

were supposed to take place in whatever neighborhood. And kind of, you know, they're all authentic locations. Okay, well, what's telling the best for us? The story. And then, you know, we love, I mean, I don't think of an example, but like, you know, we love the way this convenience store has this certain pattern, you know, this pattern or, you know, the fluorescent line. But then there's this bright, you know, colorful, you know, wall or kind of mural, right? The first, actually, the first couple of us had this mural, it's story-wise that this mural is kind of a clue for something. And we looked all around a mural day exterior kind of out in the, and we looked all around, long story short, and then we're going to do this one mural, but there's, I forget the exact reasons, but it didn't quite work. for some other reasons, kind of the way we had to shoot it. Anyway, we found this amazing real mural that tells the story,

and then they were able to incorporate a little bit what this mural was, you know, subject-wise, into the story a little bit, so the writers could kind of tool it back in the story, and then color-wise, it worked into our kind of vibrant noir aesthetic, like it all, you know what I mean? So it's like we did have concepts that we were overlaying on the reality of it, but the reality and authenticity of these locations or elements could kind of re-informed, you know, it kind of could be integrated by,

back into this story, right? So it's like, which came first, the chicken of the egg, I don't know, but it was a constant. What was really, everyone was really interested in that for the sake of this, you know, that was a paramount, that it felt authentic, but also had a kind of vibrancy and a little bit of, you know, a little bit of style and kind of electricity to it. So it was kind of again, like it was authentic, but we weren't just going and shooting, you know, it's like, okay, we didn't just show up and, you know, turn on the lights or show up and shoot all available light. It's like, no, that's not, that's not we're doing. We're still crafting a perspective in the story, but we also aren't generally coming into a location and just re, you know, retooling it

from scratch. Same thing lighting-wise. I mean, I will say night exterior. There's not a ton of night exterior in the show, but we did. One thing is important for me was building like a gel-pack color for this show. I'm going to do it on every show, but like we whittled down a lot of, you know, colors and build our kind of color book that, you know, we had the dimmer board opt for all early DNA and everything so that we had a pallet to work with at night, right? So for both Cynthia and I and Eric Segar, our Gafferin team, so we could go through and, and, you know, all our next year, we'd mix of some of what was available. So if there's like aerial lights or, you know, LEDs or, you know, the street lights or

just some other, you know, we always keep a little bit of that. But then we would also push some of our own kind of, you know, polluted urban colors into there. But again, and yes, there's some sodium vapor in there, which is very not, there's not too much in L.A. anymore, although there's still pockets. So I hate that you've gotten rid of those. I mean, it's safe for, yeah, right. No, it's really funny.

I know. So there is some of that in the show. But, you know, it's also funny because we'd go and, you know, we get location scout photos, night study photos or I loved it. When I can't, if I have time, I'll go out to a hero location and myself take pictures and get a sense and look at the color. Because I really have to kind of see it myself. When I can, I can't always do that schedule-wise. But so, but, you know, I'm constantly taking color meter and kind of like, because we did want this. you know, I'm just, it's just where I've kind of laid in the, you know, recently.

I love where colors pollute and mix in terms of, it's just kind of, that's, that's, I love that playground. So like where colors bleed into each other. And so if that can, you know, it's definitely part of the aesthetic and look in this, but that would, again, often come out of locations, I mean, it's very, very kind of L.A. But it would always be fun if we, we had scout photos or my photos that go, like, look, this is still a sodium vapor here. Look, we can, okay, so we can lean into it.

Let's save that. and then let's, you know, that's, you know, supplement from that or at our own counter with the unit. So it's like we still would build off the locations, but let's supplement a little bit and come up with, you know, sometimes we push a little more kind of than it was there. But, you know, there's a, on the 10 over here on the west side, there's this one street light on the freeway itself that has gone bad and they just haven't fixed it for like five years. And it's so funny because, correct me from wrong, but like sodium vapor when it starts to fail, just this, it's good. goes more orange and maybe a little magenta like it doesn't really, it just stays orange. This one street light

like obviously all the LEDs are 6,500 and then there's this one street light that fell in it went purple like you see purple. I know you're going to say that. I have that in my neighborhood here. I'm in the east side and literally I want and it's like there's been two it's so funny you mentioned that because literally

while we were prepping I remember this I was walking my dog and we were talking about this vibrant hour and this is right when we're doing our color like dialing in our colors and everything. And I literally took a picture of that. I have this, you know, it would full on purple, zingy purple, like someone, you know, had a sky panel up there and dialed some crazy color. And I was like, I took a picture. I sent it to the showrunner and her. It was like, here's our vibrant artist in real life. We didn't do anything in the show like that because it

would have been, seem crazy. But there is something to that idea, right? I mean, there's like, and it was mixing actually with an old sodium vapor around the things. I was like, okay, but that's funny. I mean, yeah. And then these LEDs will still be a little skewed. And, you know, It's, I think it's always, it depends on the show and the personality of the show, right? Sometimes you're really trying to rein in the palette and, um, and kind of clean everything up for lack of a better. This was unify. Yeah, unifying just kind of, you know, a very limited palette, which is the nature of a given story. This was not that.

This was about, um, leaning into the kind of dynamic in this of L.A. And the diversity, you know, the diversity of the neighborhoods and the textures and it's a little, you know, it can be clean and beautiful and it'd be kind of grungy and dirty. And it's like, that's what makes L.A. really interesting, right? And so it's, and just traversing the territories. I mean, literally, it's such a location-heavy show. That's just the nature of the story. Like, they're popping around.

And every new episode, there's somewhere else that, I mean, a lot of just kind of production schedule. There's so many locations, we have a lot of company moves. Like, boom, boom, boom. We're here a couple hours. Sometimes we have two, three moves a day. Of course, we had our stage work. But, like, it's a very intense show. So it's challenging in that way, but it's also great with the crew we had that we could,

our rigging crew is fantastic so we could come up these ideas and then of course everyone kind of bring their own days as a way to kind of execute this or what if we did this and that. But like be able to leapfrog to really, I want to make sure we really kind of arrived pushing towards the edges of what we can do in that regard as opposed to just, you know, sometimes you have to, you're always making creative compromises or you're prioritizing, right? That's the nature of the job. but like really so that you really felt like it was that you were going on a journey um because that is

something i mean i've lived i lived lived in los angeles for 25 years and it's still right it's still i've shot everywhere i've been all over but there's still are pockets i've never been or some neighborhood or some you know it's constantly changing right i mean neighborhoods are changing it's it's a very alive city and it's uh you know there are many different hearts to los angeles so it's like it's such a one that feeling to be there like you could turn a corner and now you're in some little pocket that has its own kind of personality yeah i've never been more conservative than when a new restaurant replaces that old favorite oh my goodness oh yeah of course of the bidses that was my favorite spot yeah exactly as if you know and look i mean it is tragic especially if you have

you know we have emotional connections these to these things but but also in knowing of course that changes the only constant so it's like inevitable but it's like I know so like an old man saying that but like it's true uh but yeah so there's there's definitely something of that but it was it was just it was a blast it was a lot of fun to be able to shoot in the city that you know I live in and love so yeah was there was there like a because you had so many company lives and stuff is there like a sort of I want to say formula because not no two things are the same but like kind of a mother sauce so to speak uh shooting these exteriors where like you're like all right this is kind of the shape we're

generally going for and then we'll church it up as necessary but was there like a you know i'm making this up but like you know right we're always going to have an overhead and one you know scratch bounce and that's always going to be there to get us go oh you mean like uh yes I mean I guess the short answer is yes and the G&E team would know the kind of uh without me even how to say anything I mean I work this team a lot like would know the flavors of things I would want to have But I'd be text, so since I was alternating with Cynthia, the other DP on episodes, right? So I'd be prepping while she's shooting her episode and vice versa as we asked along. But we tech scout the next episode with the rigors who are great.

And I've worked with the first team. Like this whole G&E team have worked together, grip and electric and the rigors together on several shows in a role, including some shows I've shot and some other folks. in town so like they are so tight in terms of their whole workflow and like you know what i mean like it's it's amazing that's what it's a super blessing i was really forced to be able to bring them on the show um and so that was just i mean that made the world ends because they and i've worked with this team for years on other shows too so they know you know it's like not just kind of uh you know sensibility wise but like they know they know when i was asking for something

what i was asking for if that or if that couldn't happen let's say in the tech scout like oh let's let's let's replace those lights with these and i want to make sure we can And if we can't do that, because, you know, I have to go away after texting out and deal with some, you know, then give me an alternative to this or you might come back. Oh, we can't shut off these lights and add our own. So, okay, well, let's do that, you know, so we all could kind of anticipate each other. And, but that was really key to it. But, yeah, they would know, you know, and Nightexeers, I was pretty specific on because it would depend on the senior sequence, but there's certain things I would want to shape in a certain way, you know. And sometimes you go, I'm trying to think of a specific example, but, you know, obviously you just, there's many more curb, you know, like there's nothing worse than a night exterior where I can't shut off this one floodlight from this adjoining building that really ruins the whole thing, right?

So like, we got really detailed about, and sometimes you can't. Sometimes you could, sometimes they could have access. They could work something out with the neighbor or sometimes they couldn't or, you know, so it's like, tried to, I'm always, you were always trying to do that. but I really tried to be as getting to the minutiae as much as possible and micromanes that as much as possible just because you know how much of a difference it makes. And, you know, not just from the aesthetic or the look at what you're going for,

but for the speed in which you can shoot, which is just as important on a show like this. Yeah. Because the faster you move, the more, you know, the more you're able to kind of, you know, the more setups and shots and time with that, you know, performance is all of it, right? That you can kind of maximize everything else,

more shooting time, less, less lighting time. Yeah, I do love, I feel like night exterior specifically are one of the most unique cinematographer fingerprints. Because like a day exterior kind of like January, unless, you know, Ozark or whatever, but like generally roughly. Right. The sun. The sun is there. We're going to work with the sun. But night exterior is everyone, you know, are we doing a Terminator 2 blue spike? Are we doing a hundred percent?

You know, and I always just love seeing how everyone handles it. because no one's wrong. You know, it's just always, unless you're doing the great escape, that was incorrect. That looked like the day.

Right, fair enough. Watching that the other day and I was like, no, no, we, they would have seen you. Right. For the record, let's just,

let's all get on the same page on that. Yeah, that was an F8. Like, no, you would have, you would have been popped out of the hole immediately.

Yes. No, it's true though. You're asked you right. Well, because I mean, right, it's like that's,

you're starting, I mean, not that you could turn off all the lights in the location but you know the default is zero so right if ever you start to zero you don't see anything so it's like what do you see what don't you see what color in the way you see it obviously you're shaping it's like while day X here it's all about control right it's like

how much are we controlling this or not how much are we fighting the sun or leaning against it how much were we able to schedule it to lean into today you know to pray to the sun gods to lean into you know the backlight to the sideline or whatever you want or for that matter of front light if that's what if you want

for the scene but yeah night exterior at the time you can really you know and sometimes it is

this show we wanted to kind of mix some of those colors bleeding into each other and a little bit this

the kind of personality but on other you know in other stories that we're telling it's like it's very much

the opposite maybe it's much much more controlled or more minimal or more elegant in a way but yeah

I want to just have a little bit of life to it. The, we're a little over, so I know, I'll let you go. Oh, yeah. But I'll, uh, I have a favorite, um, cheater question basically, which is, and I stole this from David Fincher. This is like in the game director's commentary, but it just, it just stuck with me forever because it, it made my life as a DP so much. But it made my life as a DP so much easier because it, it just simplified everything for me.

it took me like five years to figure out what the fuck he was talking about and so basically it's used in ballot what what don't you do

in terms of the visual language of the show what are you not doing oh god yeah that is that good one right what don't she do because it's like that's what informs

what the show looks like if you can do it's true because you can say oh yeah we we you know we we used I used the steady cam I'm okay, great. Well, what didn't you do?

Because that's actually what the show looks like. Right. Well, that's funny you say that. I mean, there were, and you're always setting up, to some degree, you're setting up rules on a show, especially shows that you're starting on shooting the pilot setting, quote unquote, setting the look. But like, you know, something I talked about this lot at the beginning because we were in the first, I don't know if I'm going to directly answer this question.

I'll try not to ramble too much. But this is the ramble show. You know, in the first episode, so director over was Jet Wilkison. Wilkinson, who's great, and I've worked with an episode of the Wu-Tang series, and she's wonderful, and we were very much on the same-paced sensibility-wise, and I was plugging into how she was seeing it, but it was a very kind of controlled, for the most part in the first episode, very can-controlled. Again, you're kind of anchored to Baller's perspective, literally the way the story, the script reads, and how these scenes are laid out. She's leading us through spaces.

I mean, it's very kind of, in a way, it's just kind of very pared down. Yes, there's a lot, there's a lot of scenes and locations and a lot going on, but it's like very, in a way, we wanted that to feel real organic but also again be kind of anchored to her you know it's not just her perspective but for me again like her pace and cadence like literally like she's walking to the it's like there's a certain kind of i don't know how i'll explain it but cadence but uh so with camera moving and feel and control so like that was really paramount there's no handheld in the first is that true wait or something so second up so there's but we very clearly it's all steady cam and you dolly and you know

Ronan and without a lot of you know there's some dynamic move but it's not flashy it's not you know I don't know it's again kind of very kind of just elegant at least that's the aim we were going for and and strong compositions right we lean into the architecture kind of very

formal frame sometimes I forgot to mention that you did a great there especially that first season first season first episode there's like a lot of really good you really maximize the set you know, especially that specifically in that main room. And that was very, that's very conscious. So like that, there's a certain kind of quality of that.

But then we also knew like in episode two, which direct as well, we did that block together one, two episodes one and two. We did have one sequence where there's, and actually, these were kind of chasing down this guy and this, this rundown house. And that we did introduce some handheld to break it up and kind of, you know, there's just certain energy that things kind of spiral out, spin out a little bit unexpectedly. And so that, you know, again, nothing revolutionary, but it was important to kind of lay the groundwork. And there's a lot of steady cam the show.

So there's nothing, it's kind of camera-wide. There's nothing that's not on the table. And then Cynthia holds some things in different directions, you know. There's certain subjectivity that we get in kind of Ballard's headspace a little bit. Again, nothing hyper-styled. Like, it's all grounded in some version of reality. It's not like we, but there's some specialty lens and stuff there. But in terms of, so, I mean, a lot of that was on the table.

What didn't we do? I don't know. I mean, I don't, it seems like I should have to be able to have a better answer for that question. Things still had to always feel, again, like I think we really worked hard to kind of, in this, especially in the first block to set up the kind of the palette we were working in, even though I keep talking about how much is the tapestry and all these locations of different colors, it still wasn't like you step into a crazy red room and, you know, it's like it's still kind of grounded again. It comes informed by the locations authentic of the story. So still had to feel grounded enough, I guess the shortness was not a good answer. Anything we didn't do, it's not like we never shot a shot, you know, like we only shot the show on three lenses or we only, you know, it's nothing, which I'd love to do, actually,

I'd love to do show, we don't shot three lenses, but that was not this because we knew, and I also didn't, I mean, no one would want to do that, but I didn't, you know, I'm cautioned the beginning of show not to set ground some kind of starting point, you know, visual approaches and visual ground rules, but also know, I mean, I think that's what's great about series that's different about features is that with the right series, right, the story goes that direction, that it should

explore. Like we had certain episodes that would follow certain characters and get into this kind of sub-story or B-story or or, you know, that did become more subjective and was all about these kind of, you know, flashbacks or kind of memories. And so it was important not to limit that too much because I think that's what keeps,

you know, that's what keeps the story dynamic. and interesting and surprise of the viewer and keeps things feeling fresh. Like, you know, it's funny. I always think, like, the extreme exam for that stuff I've done. Because it was the Wutang show, which I shot the pilot and then through all three seasons, actually.

And, you know, it's the story of the Wutang clan, long story short, over three seasons. But the last season, you know, some of the last episodes we shot were these alternative universe. so it was like kind of not concept albums but kind of concept episodes where it was like you know you take one of Ray Kwan's albums

and the whole kind of concept of that like basically we had these kind of micro talk about anthology we had these one-off episodes that were shot anamorphic and all the actors were playing alternate kind of personas within the Wu-Tang universe based off a given album right and so it's like the alternate reality so it's like the total one-off episodes that make sense

if you know Woutain Klan and their mythology and universe and personas, but it was all, you know, it was a total separation from the rest of the series. So, like, that's great. I mean, when I heard about that for that through season, that that's what we were doing. And Rizzo, from the Wutang Clan was directing

a couple of episodes that I shot with him. I was like, yes, what a great way to do the last season of this show. Speaking of what don't you do, I don't know if that guy doesn't do anything. No, he doesn't anything. No, and that's amazing. work with him because he really is one of those true kind of, you know, just artists in every sense

of the word. And he's constantly exploring, you know, that's what, that's what excites me about working with so much. Like, he's just constantly exploring, right? Like, he's curious. It's that curiosity as obviously as a musician, as a filmmaker, he's a director, he's a writer, he's a musician, actor, you know, it's like he's constantly curious, he's curious about people, he's curious about, you know he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's a wise soul and a curious soul and a and a bold and he wants to take bold steps and so it's like you know bold leaps so it's like i love work that energy working with him is great yeah um and he's he wants to bring out the best in the folks he's he's he's collaborating with so it's like it's that's there's nothing better than that

well and uh i was about to say he popped up and nobody too and i was like what i know i I haven't seen it yet. I know he said, yeah, I can't like to see that too. I know. They did the classic, like, you know, turns around, push in kind of thing. Like, I can't remember if he was in the first one. I, like, I barely, he was. Yeah, he wasn't. Yeah, I've got it on Bluroy. I just didn't watch it before I watched the second one. But, you know, we could too. Yeah. Shout out to Callum Green. Um, but, uh, was, oh, yeah, to your point about collaboration and stuff, I was like, that would make sense being in the Luton clan, right? You don't, you don't make that, that, uh, group wanting to be singular.

Well, I guess some of them did. But it's complicated. No, but no, for sure. I mean, without, it's like, that's a whole other conversation. But yes, I mean, yeah, he definitely. That's a whole other podcast. I know it is, which is super fun. And there's been many podcasts on much better than I can articulate.

But for sure. I mean, that's a whole, but he is very much and he's very much that role to kind of boil it down in the Wu-Tang Clan initially, too, like pulling different, you know, his friends and family and ours, but like, you know, pulling these guys together. saw what the potential and their energies and personalities and how and to kind of there are other factors but like you know he's great at pulling a team together and and really kind of like you're taking advantage of their strengths and and creativity in the best way and like creating something greater than some of its parts so like you know and he's a incredible

artist himself so it's like yeah working with him especially it's such a unique project like the more you know it's because it's obviously it's all that, him as Zodar, but of course, the story he's telling is his own story from 30 years ago. It's super, it gets very meta very quickly. So it's a, it's a fascinating, a fascinating process. That's got to be, I don't know if this happened me, but I just imagine like being on set. And you're like, what do you think we should do here? And he's like, well, what happened was? And you're like, right, right. I mean, basically, I mean, and well, that wouldn't, and that would have an unsaid that happened in concept meetings, the script. You know, he was the showrunner with

Alex C., who's incredible writer-shederer as well. And so they, of course, and the great team of writers all the way through. But so, you know, that came all the way through every process. But I have to say, like, literally the most interesting part of that, it's a lot of very interesting parts of that, being a part of that show, but would be seeing him, the gears turning on, like, this is, you know, this is what really happened. This is the story we're telling and how we have to distill it into, right?

any kind of from a writer point of view right like all these things were happening but now we have to distill it down to the essence of the emotional essence or story essence or plot essence of what how this fits in the larger puzzle from a story point of view right because you're telling a complex story and then and then getting the performances right or trying to get the essence performance of the actors playing versions so it's like such a very like three-dimensional kind of four-dimensional i don't know how many dimensions kind of process of seeing that unfold and helping kind of bring that to light. But yeah, for sure there would be times, like, you know,

some of the cast would ask them questions about some given thing on set or like there's something that we tweak on the day because some detail had to feel a little different. And there's certain libraries that were taken because, again, we're telling a certain things had to be recreated from production design slash lighting or some other element that, of course, had to be very specific. And the other things is like, no, that's cool.

Let us kind of have the essence of what it was. But like, let's tweak it to the version of the world. the story that we're telling and then there's always that kind of it's very wutang like very witty unpredictable element which there's all which we try to infuse in the beginning which is I kind of think it's like syncopation like uh there shouldn't rhythms the vision I mean visually is why I know I'm kind of mixing my metaphors and sound and I'm a good so you know it's like like there shouldn't visual rhythms or and I can mean that literally kind of pacing wise with shots and kind of composition or you know and then like little like little snaps throw

things off in story or motion or something. And it can be as literal as like, you know, camera movement, but also just kind of like a shot that breaks the visual rhythm or, you know what I mean? And that's very much kind of very Wu-Tang kind of snaps you a little kung fu in there, a little Shao

brothers. So it's like, it's all part of that was a very fun show because we were able to kind of keep a dynamic and play a little bit within all that too. Yeah. Well, definitely kept you longer and I was supposed to so, but I appreciate the extra clip, but keep in touch.

I mean, when I ran into you at the clubhouse, you know, I hadn't necessarily heard you. And then I looked up your CD. I was like, oh, it's like everything that's good, sweat sick. You know, it's not that it's weird to everyone's very, very good. But it was fun to just see how accomplished you are. I just ran into this guy. This is awesome. Oh, that's cool.

No, I'm so glad. No, it's fun. No, thanks for having me out. No, it was great. It was great to chat. general, Kenny. I was glad we met at the clubhouse and the podcast is great. And so, and I'm just, I'm all like basically what we're saying. I'm just happy to chat with. Interesting.

Folks. Creative folks. So this is fun. Yeah. Well, we'll definitely have you by her. I don't know if I ever end up on the east side. The one like, I'm happy to meet me. I'm happy to meet anyone in the middle, but it is a toughie. I remember I met, uh, I'm now can say I'm friends with Jessica Lee Gagne and, uh, cool. She was staying. She, uh, me, her. and Joanna Coelhoa were going to meet up. Okay. And we were going to meet downtown. But then they did that shutdown of like that very specific

part and we were all going to go to death and co. And death go was right in the zone. So Jesse goes, oh, I'm on the east side. So does any way? And then John is like, me too. And so I had to drive my happy ass an hour and 20 minutes to like Eagle Rock or wherever. And I was like, that's where I am basically. No.

Wait, where are you though? I'm in Sautel. Oh, you are Sautil. Okay. Yeah. So. Yeah. No, that's the real deal, man. I know.

No, trust me. I, you know, obviously I have some friends and folks on the west side. And it's always like trying to navigate how to do that exactly. I feel so dumb. But it's also, I will say living in L.A. has expanded my definition of what is a long drive. Because like, yes, it'll be, again, it took maybe an hour, but maybe an hour to get over to that restaurant. Yeah. But back when I grew up, San Francisco.

was an hour and a half away and we were all like that was that we had to plan for that oh my god that was like road trip right road trip we're going out of town like yeah yeah and now it's like oh an hour and a half i guess like make that work like i know every time in it you know i know it's funny how you it's so familiar and it never gets old and wait like i took my someone back to school on wednesday and my wife started working and i i had so i was like i want to hang out my son last day before we go to school so so monday whatever no monday day or Tuesday, we went down to, like, one more beach day. So just him and I went down to the beach, Malibu, or Will, uh, we'll, uh, will roger.

But yeah. And of course, you know, I mean, I've done a million times. I was like, oh, we'll just hang out longer. And I was like, oh, we're leaving it three. What a horrible idea to go home. I was like, the original idea was to leave it, what, you know, one 30s. I was like, no, we're just the last day of summer. We're going to hang out. But I mean, I knew. I'm like, we're going to get it.

It's going to, I'll take like an hour, 45 minutes to it. I was like, yes, of course. I was done a million times. but it never gets old as to like how in fear it. Yes, you get used to it, but you don't know what? It's like, and I was fine with this in a podcast, we're made a home,

but like still, it's like an hour and 45 minutes, that's nuts. Let's really think about that. Like I'm supposed to be living in, this is where I live, like, you're telling me an hour and 45 minutes.

And I'm from San Diego. So going to say, there's now more traffic going to San Diego. But I remember whatever, a couple days ago, you could go to get to, I could get home to San Diego, my parents house in two hours.

You know, so like, not anymore, by the way, because of traffic between here and there. But anyway, it's crazy. I used to follow this band around when I very first started. Like, after I left college, I was working at Red Bull.

And so I just didn't have a real. I went to film school in Arizona and was working at Red Bull. And I was like, I'm going to work for this company forever. And it didn't. And so when I left, I moved back here and I didn't have a reel. So I just had to kind of start from scratch. Yeah. So my buddy had a band and they were playing in San Diego every weekend at the 10

roof and so I would follow them in film and then we'd make like music videos that they had had like a house that they had rented because we were there every week yeah the move that I really fell in love was was taking that Amtrak the surfliner yes that's it we were doing it so much because it's about the same yeah travel time now you know it's three hours or whatever but you get that you get to sit in that little food cart and we had done it so many times that we would see the same people you're not supposed to just hang out in the food right that makes you leave we would and then we just be like buying beers and just like hanging out we're like we're going it you know and it's the best right ever it's oh and it's and it's and it cuts along the coast

for those runs no i definitely love that it's fun we haven't done in years for whatever reason we need a car is because maybe my parents we need the car but uh totally that's the best if that's the way to do it whenever you can that's the way to do it's so nice that's good man well uh hopefully i'll run into you soon but i'll let you know it's actually it's funny a friend of mine i have to me a friend of mine in West Hollywood because she lives on the east side because she lives on the middle

exactly I have a couple friends that we meet it's like depending yeah maybe we'll get all the way to Hollywood or mid city right depending on like how we can navigate the meaning point to be on who's oh can you come all the way to yeah we know can we go all the way

to East Hollywood that's a stretch yeah it's good man all right now I'll let you go but thanks for sure dude we'll keep it touch yeah thanks so much again all right take care of later bro frame and reference is an Albot production produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan. If you'd like to support the podcast directly,

you can do so by going to frame and refpod.com and clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated. And as always, thanks for listening. Thank you.