Frame & Reference Podcast - 216: "Sinners" Cinematographer Autumn Durald Arkapaw, ASC

Episode Date: October 30, 2025

Big one today! On the program sharing her knowledge with us is the wonderful Autumn Durald Arkapaw, ASC talking about Sinners and a whole lot more!Enjoy!► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠���⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠F&R Online ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Support F&R⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Watch on YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Produced by Kenny McMillan► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Hello, and welcome to this episode 216 of frame and reference. You're about to drop into a conversation between me, Kenny McMillan, and my guest, Autumn Dural to Archipa, ASC, DP of Sinners. Enjoy it. I actually did. I saw that you, in an interview, you had talked about being inspired by Ellen Curris. And I interviewed her very early on at the show. Oh, really?

Okay. Yeah, it might have been like the 20th episode or something. And I was similarly inspired by her because that woman is like, no bullshit. Like, here's what you need to know. And she's very good at her job. and I was wondering what like what she did or maybe like a lighting

situation like what what inspired you via her work because I assume you didn't talk to her up front no we're friends now which is lovely and friends through connection we have the same or my agent is great friends with her

and has been with her for a long time my commercial agent and connected us and I think it was maybe she's directing now and had a commercial that she wanted me to shoot. So we kind of became friends recently. But I've always said in interviews that, you know, when I was searching for DPs,

because this kind of career came later to me, I went to LMU for art history, and then it was a genre film course that I took, just part of the curriculum that got me into thinking about film. And so I was like, oh, wow, what's a D.P. do? And then I would look up my favorite films, and it was mostly, you know, dudes. And then I looked up who shot Blow and I found her name. And I was like, because

it must be a woman. And so I looked it up and researched her and then obviously saw other films that inspired me. And it just gave me confidence, you know, because I think if you don't know what that job is, no one in my family was in the film business. It's very hard at the time, you know, let me date it. It was probably 2001, 2002, maybe. me around there. You know, I couldn't really find much, you know, and I wasn't, you know, in film school. So it was very important for me to find her name, to be honest. And then, you know, just that the work had so much personality to it, you know, she was very expressive and just got me interested in her in general. But it was a connection that I had because I was finding

her name because of the films that I liked, you know, so that's special. So, yeah. it is funny when you're when you're learning how like you'll see names repeat over and over and you kind of get this weird at least i did get this weird like oh that's my it's the same thing with music right like you'll see some musicians like start to work with other musicians that you like you're like oh these are my people like i need to go whatever this direction is i need to go there yeah no totally um and she's and she's so lovely um and my husband who's also d p uh worked with her um and adores her and so yeah um i look forward to the day that i can spend some time with her yeah the uh because you mentioned the art history thing you you were learning to be a uh a museum curator weren't she yeah i mean i think the allure like job allure for that type of um undergrad work for me was working in a museum or at a gallery because what i started doing is like my first jobs were working in a museum, I was the front desk girl. So when you walked in, you know, I'd hand you a pamphlet, you know, say hello, and that I would sit there all day. So you can imagine how boring

that was, you know, at the time. And then, you know, I thought, okay, let me, let me apply for this internship at Sotheby's to see if I can get in there because I wanted to go to New York. And thank God film found me because it tended to be not as much of an expressive like photography, job that I thought it was going to be like I wanted to work with artists and have an opinion about collections and stuff but I didn't get to take my own photos and you know tell my own story so I think after that film genre course I was like this fits me a little bit better but it informed it too because you know I would I would take many courses in art history and um ancient art and you know just various things and and so that helped me to kind of figure out what I wanted to do

ultimately for sure well and i think like that a lot of times people talk about um going to film school not going to film school i always say like it's obviously you can afford it um going to college and not taking like i did take film that was nice but i probably should have taken like business or something just i don't know how to manage my own finances you know um and uh but like those I imagine art history, certainly like any, like English course, anything about like ancient, but just older novels and stuff like that. Those are all incredibly informative to a filmmaker. Yeah, I mean, I think what's nice about it is like you spend a lot of time having an experience

with one particular piece, right? You're walking around a museum and you're sitting there and you're standing there and you're confronted with it and you're able to kind of some you feel a connection with some painting some photography and then you move on you read about the artist and it's very singular which i like you know and so at the time i think it helped me build kind of like an idea of what how i wanted to tell my story like framing composition color texture and so it all feeds into this medium that i'm interested in now, but I do still like to go around and go to museums. I take my son. He can get antsy. But, you know, I like to see what he gravitates towards because, you know, everyone's so

different. It's so personal, that relationship when you're staring at something. So, so yeah, it's nice to look back and see what that did for me. Yeah. I, you know, I was just, I went to the Louvre Museum. No, sorry, they just got robbed. Yeah. The Vatican Museum. And, um, you know you always hear like oh you know uh review the masters like that's where you're going to learn lighting and stuff like that and i've always been like yeah okay uh but then i was walking through there and there is something different about seeing a painting live like there are some paintings in that gallery and you're allowed to like basically get within touch of distance there's not really ropes there but some of those very like heavily contrasty pieces it feels like they're just glowing Like, it's a really incredible way that some people are able to, we're able to do that and have it last for hundreds of years and still be that. Obviously, with curation and what you call it, not renewal, you know, keeping it nice. Yes.

Restoration, thank you. It really does start to informant. It makes it sense. Because then when you, like, see one light source, for instance, you're like, all right, where did the painter cheat? Like, where does the shadow not quite make sense? but it is good, you know, and then that starts to get at least my deep and brain going. No, also, I think it's so intricate and detailed. And when you're up close, like you say, right, within a foot, you can see the artistry and see how it's kind of like, I guess the reference would be on set, right?

You watch a movie, you're like, oh, great, it looks amazing. But people that are allowed to be on set and actually watch us, like, set the lights and block the scene and stuff are like, wow, okay, that's how they did it. but yeah i always like looking up close because it's like some of that stuff man it's just so amazing like the the detail and um how they achieved it was pretty crazy because it looks real looks real like you said um i did i did want to ask i've gotten my notes all jumbled up here because i try to do thing and i shouldn't have printing forget it don't do it write it down it's tiny i know i'm sitting here going i'd like to pay attention um you were talking about how uh in a different

interview how your craft had to catch up with your taste. And I was wondering how, you know, going from smaller shoots, indie zones, whatever commercials to much larger projects, you know, your Wakanda forever, your centers, if those larger projects forced you to meet the moment or if you were, if there were smaller projects that kind of led you there, from a craft perspective. Yeah. I would say the smaller led me there. And I say that coming from a position of, you know, starting out in film school, you shoot a lot in that program. AFI was, I think it was pivotal for me to be in that program. Everyone who went to AFI that comes across my desk is like, yeah, now I'm the best at it. And you're like, yeah, you are. Well, you don't want to believe that, though, because I will say with film school, that tends to happen, right, where you do your film school thing. You make your things, and then you get out of films going, you're like, I know what I'm doing, and you actually don't know what you're doing. Like, you still need to kind of infuse yourself into the environment and, like, work on real sets because obviously our student sets are a bit different, but they prepare you very well because you're constantly shooting or you're working on your friends' projects. So I think for me, it was fortunate that in between my first and second year at AFI, I worked with my thesis group, who were great friends.

in mind and we made a feature, which you're not supposed to do, in the summer. And it was like a mumblecore micro-budget film. And it went to rain dance after we graduated and won best micro-budget film. And the director was a star and very small, but lovely, lovely film. And we shot it on 35. And so that was with friends, people of similar taste and interests. And I got along with the group very well and their great friends till this day. And I think that kind of made, informed my taste because I was working with people that had very similar taste, very good taste, stuff that we all like the same thing, like same foods, and we would go out together and eat and watch films and design-wise. And so, you know, moving on, I ended up meeting Gia

through another film school classmate. And same thing with Gia, like we had like-minded taste, and we would go out, you know, not just work together, but we go out outside of that. So friends becoming the same people that I'm making films with because we had similar likes and similar dislikes. So, you know, I think through that process doing a lot of fashion films, music videos, indie projects, you make mistakes and you're able to learn with the people that kind of make you brave and allow you to be yourself and you make those mistakes with them and they're supported. mistakes you know you kind of pivot you're like oh well I shop that and then you're looking at it later

and like that wasn't so great now I'm going to make an adjustment and you're finding your taste and your style but you're able to be so free and I think that's important is being able to go do a bunch of freebies with friends and develop that taste and then also seek out people that you know are on the same kind of path as you and like the same things same references so and then you know as you as you get older and you start working more and then bigger budget you know approaches you um i always find it's it's i don't change my brain you know it's not like if i'm doing the last showgirl and then you know i finish that and then i go straight into prep on centers it's not like i become a different dp because it's a bigger film or i have a bigger budget um it's just a different story we're telling on a bigger scale and

we have more days and we have more funds um but i approach them the same um honestly yeah you know i i i got to see the last showgirl in theaters. Oh, cool. It was, I loved it. Obviously, you were able to capture everyone, but obviously, seeing Pam Anderson get, like, a lot of shine was great, especially being a boy of the 90s. I was a fan. Yes.

But it was the first time my girlfriend's ever leaned over and been like, why does it look like that? And I was like, well. so I did actually want to touch on it like what you know shooting obviously it was it appeared to be relatively low budget just as a guess I really loved the just sort of random interstitials where you just see her like staring off into space and stuff and I kind of wanted to know like where we just going like hey let's go outside and just get some cutaways for fun but then also like the the anamorphic seemed really that character of you know and just kind of like all the choices that led to shooting that the way you did yeah um i mean i've been with gia like we've been together you know both of our our careers started together um so you know it feels very like palo alto for instance it feels very comfortable to make a small film with your friends and run around honestly that's that's the best way to describe it um and

And, you know, in this instance, it wasn't, you know, her friends anymore that were younger. We weren't telling a teenage story. But she put together a, like, beautiful cast of people that were very supportive, you know, hands-on, intimate. So we were able to kind of turn this way, turn that way, you know, while there's pretty lights over there, let's go over there, put Pam there, you know, in a thoughtful pose. So everyone was really game to approach it like that. And when you're approaching it like that and you have good people.

that are collaborative and polite, it makes it very easy, you know, to tell that story and be with her and run around with that camera. And it's something that Gia likes, you know, we've been doing that kind of filmmaking for a long time where, you know, maybe on a weekend, and my crew is lovely and, you know, I use the same crew. We go this direction and we're like, well, we're going to go into, you know, shoot on this avenue at night, you know, with available light and run around with Pam and so so it is a little bit like that what you say um because that's where gea kind of thrives as well she's a photographer her her she's also a photographer and loves to do a lot of point and shoot shots so that's kind of that translation with for her you know she likes to tell her story in those

single images so if you look at her films there's all these always these like interstitials where it will cut to someone in a bedroom or a doll on a shelf or you know stuff like that um so that's very her It's very Japanese way it's own making. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's, I think she likes a collection of images, right, that tell the story. And so, and we do prep like that as well. She'll send me, you know, our prep looks more like her sending me a bunch of random stuff, whether it's Instagram or photography or some, you know, her shooting trash on the ground.

I just get it. I know exactly what she's talking about. And that's kind of our language that we do. But yeah, I mean, it's, you know, it's great because, you know, I have the relationship with Panavision. I mostly shoot Panavision. You know, I have a great relationship with Dan Sasaki. So when this film is the best, yes.

I should send you. I don't, it's not out yet, but we did a Q&A at Panavision. He was my moderator. Oh, I love to see it. He did a great job. It was so fun. And so, and we talked very much nerd lens stuff. So you would appreciate it very much.

I'll try and get that for you. It was recently. But he helped make these lenses for last. showgirl because I didn't really I knew we were shooting 16 and then I don't know if you've read obviously Ryan wanted to originally shoot 16 for sinners um right and then 65 and then 70 and then the moon um so it was I wanted to find lenses that I liked because I honestly there weren't any favorite lenses for me spirically um for 16 so we did a lot of testing and he made some lenses for me And we worked out the kinks on that film.

We obviously didn't end up shooting centers on 16, but it was a nice collaboration. And, you know, my focus polar Ethan McDonald, who I've worked with for many years, is a part of that R&D that we do with Dan and we do testing and stuff. So that look that your girlfriend was wondering about was developed, you know,

for the first time with these lenses that we made for that film. So I kind of always wanted to ask. ask someone this, but I never felt like I had the right time, but I suppose it's now. What is it like to get your own lenses tuned or made or whatever? Because, like, are you sitting there with, like, all the optics in a tube and swapping them out, like, you know, the optometrist? Or, like, what is that process like? Yeah, I mean, I would say because I've worked with them for so long, you know, when I first,

like, I guess let's go back. to AFI and you get to pick your own tools, right? You're like, okay, what do you want to shoot? I always gravitated towards anamorphic because the films that I came up watching, whether it's Manhattan or The Last Emperor, you know, it just, those felt cinematic to me in a way that, you know, I felt like I was watching a movie. I felt outside of body experience. You know, I would sit in the dark theater and looked up and I felt, it felt important, which in turn made me feel important. So I shot a lot of anamorphic early on. And so when we were doing Palo Alto, we couldn't afford anamorphic at Panavision because our biggest reference was the outsiders, you know,

Francis Ford Kobler's the outsiders, which was shot animorphically. And so what I did was we, we ended up shooting that spherically with some older glass, Panavision super speeds. But I always wanted to shoot anamorphic. So after that, you know, I started shooting more and I would go there and I'd say, you know, just give me whatever you got, you know, whatever lens sets you have, whether it's, you know, C series or E series or high speeds. So what I ended up doing was I ended up shooting movies was like a bunch of different sets. And then when I would do commercials or, you know, a low budget videos, it would be what they had available, you know, at the time because it was a lot younger

and budgets were slim. And that just allows you to learn what kind of glass that you like, what the different series, you know, what attributes, what characteristics, field curvature, whatever these things, you know, that you feel in your process when you're shooting them, you're investigating. And so, you know, you can imagine if that's the only camera house that you work with and that's, you know, you get very versed in their lensing. And then over the years, I remember I was doing a music video and killing them softly had come out. And Greg, is now a good friend and has been a great friend for a long time and like a big inspiration

for me, you know, that film was so beautiful. And I remember asking them at the time guy over there to make me a lens like the one that you see that he uses when the firecrackers go off when Brad Pitt's crossing the street. And so they tuned one for or detuned one for me for that music video. And I think that was the first time I asked them to kind of replicate or make something for me. And so it's a process. Like, I go in the back room, you know, you see Dan tinkering, like you say, you know, because he's a mad scientist. And, you know, I've become accustomed to going in there and kind of asking questions and looking at things, projecting lenses on the grid and, you know, seeing where the fall off is or seeing how they perform. But the process is mostly

like he will make something, knowing how I like to shoot, what stop I like to shoot, the field curvature, the fall off, the boca, you know, lens flare, lens flare color, and all of these things over time. And so when he makes it, then you do a test and you shoot it, you project it, you look at it, and then you have a conversation and you make adjustments. So it's kind of like that process. And also my AC is very involved in this process and knows how I like to shoot. So he's kind of back and forth, you know, he gets it in a right spot for me and then gives it to me and we do a test. Sure.

Yeah. Yeah, that's just fascinating. You used a handful of lenses on sinners, but you ended up just like grabbing the Oppenheimer lenses, didn't you? For the IMAX. Yeah, for the IMAX camera, you know, there are very limited.

Well, there are lenses around. There are IMAX lenses. And then there are the lenses that Dan made for Hoyta and Chris for Oppenheimer. and that's a 50 and an 80-mill Panavision iMacs lens. And it's a beautiful, both lenses are beautiful. And so, yes, we opted to use those for our iMacs in the film. And Ryan was okay with those being our only lenses because when you go that direction, you only have a 50,

which is very wide, and then you have your 80, your longer lens that we use for more of the close-ups and portraiture stuff. And then I asked Dan to make me a Petsval 80 for the movie. so that was new and he made me that for for for sinners but for the iMacs that was all we had we had two sets of that Panavision's iMacs sure i mean it's not a revolutionary thought by any means but i do subscribe to the idea that limitation tends to make things better for like five years in my career i literally used one camera body and one zoom lens and i oftentimes look back on that stuff fondly because like now I'm throwing too much into there you know I had too many options and I'm

like it just looked better when I only had one thing yeah and you get so used to it you know how to use the tool yeah no I agree I mean I would say um you know on commercials I'll bring more I mean movies I have you know various sets because we have different units and multiple cameras but I would say you know when I do a commercial sometimes I'll bring more if I need zooms but you know I I'm okay with four lenses. I'm okay with three lenses to tell the story. And Ryan's very, like, we work like that as well. Like when we did Panther, we had a hero lens that was our, you know,

our emotional character lens that we used. And then we had one on this as well that becomes that important lens. And I like working like that. And so it's nice to get Ryan on board with, you know, if I present something and see if he likes it because I kind of know what he likes now. And so, you know, I'll show them this, be like, is this, do you think this is the one? And then we'll have a conversation about it. So it's nice to work like that.

Yeah. I heard another interview you did that, you know, and I feel like a lot of do this, but like commercials and certainly music videos are playgrounds for which to develop new ideas and stuff out, whatever. I was wondering if there was anything that comes to mind without thinking too hard about. about it, uh, that maybe you tried on like commercial and you're like, that's going in the toolkit. Um, I mean, I've done, I've done a lot. I've done a lot. I don't do them as often anymore music videos. So I feel like maybe there was something that I did in music video, but I can't, I can't recall now to be honest. I mean, yes, this happens because we're, you know, You get to experiment, but nothing, nothing comes to mind recently, which maybe tells you what I'm doing commercially.

It's like it's more standard fair, I suppose, nowadays. I feel like every commercial I watch now is wide angle, a lot of in and out, and then hard, warm slash somewhere, cool and a lot of colors. yeah like they're all the exact same commercial over and over now yes that's disappointing thing yeah but i enjoy it i enjoy that break that i get you know sure you're fortunate if you can work in that um arena in between features but i would say nowadays the the cool stuff that we're exploring is in the movies not the commercials um which is a good thing because that's where you should be doing it that's you're doing more storytelling there um whereas the other you know is like more quick and um it can and it can be creative not to say like um i've done some stuff in

europe or something you know that has a bit more freedom um that i appreciate yeah well but also like even if it's a commercial that you've seen a thousand times like at least you know for instance the difference between shooting film and digital is security right like those those paint by numbers commercials you know what you're doing it's a secure gig you're like i i'm probably won't fuck this up. I think we'll be good. Yeah. And so you don't, you get to sleep at night with that, you know? Yeah. No, fear is, fear is

a horrible thing in our industry. And it, yeah, it can infect all agency production, as you know, just in general, in life. So I always say like it's, yeah, it'll just,

it just will put a halt to any creativity immediately. If someone is scared to put something new and original or different out there and it happens a lot even in smaller mediums like commercials which is unfortunate to the point where you're saying you know i'm seeing the same thing all the time you know it's because it's obviously on a spreadsheet it's happening it's working but it's not inspiring and it's not taking it to a higher level level which in turn could get more sales maybe you know you know it's it's the sort of uh i don't know if you're a sports person but there's a lot of

folks who will bemoan the introduction of like hyper-specific analytics into sports because then it's gone past money ball and now it's just like oh it's like a check sheet of you know it's the same thing of like this man I'm going to have to dig deep for this

well my brain's pretty slow this morning but I've had this theory that like getting just the thing the hyper diluted thing is never good like it's all the dirtiness around a thing whether it be like food

like the flavor isn't always amazing but you want like texture and also other flavors in there when it comes to food you know with film it's like I'm sure there's like a technical specific correct way to do something that's not always

great and it's the risk a version of analytics that I feel has made what you're saying, those choices of like, well, you know, the analytics show that kids love when you go wide angle and zoom around a lot. So we got to make sure that's in our project. Yes. It's it worked for someone else. It's always going to work for the way.

No, no. I mean, you know, I think what's great about sinners is what does that show? It shows, you know, I mean, that's a very original idea that Ryan wrote on the page that even, you know, when I'm reading it, I'm like, this is amazing. not read anything like this before. It's super inspiring. So to get to be a part of that, but then also, you know, it's reflected in how people are coming to the theater multiple times and, you know, wanting to see it and traveling to see it and paying money to see it more than once. That goes to, that should solidify what we're talking about, you know, enough to to promote that encouragement that people should, you know, take risks. And obviously this

one is being supported on a much bigger level, but it doesn't mean that, you know, it just, it goes out there as an inspiration flag to all those people that are, you know, wanting to write stories like Ryan, you know, put a pen to paper and maybe thinking that, you know, no one's going to like that. Or if they hand it to someone important or at a studio that they might be risk averse, but I'm happy to see that this is making that statement, especially with Ryan, you know, doing that. Yeah. And I mean, the, the, the, the, story. I was able to find the I don't have about Blu-ray yet, but I was

able to find the special features online and the thing that I thought was crazy was the, I didn't know this, that it was WB's idea to shoot IMAX specifically like not even like an artistic reason. They're like, IMAX is, it's again, it's the, it's the

analytics like people like IMAs. We should shoot that. And to go from like, we're going to shoot this on 16 to like the bean pusher. going like you should shoot iMX that had to be a weird whiplash no i mean they they had a call because yeah ryan talks about it um the studio called um and asked if we had thought about large format so we were already shooting on film so when you say that it means large format film right and so then we're talking about 65 whether it's five perf or iMX um but it's a conversation but you're not wrong yet. I mean, there is an IMAX moviegoer that, you know, we've discussed before

in our filmmaking team because, you know, we did Wakanda Forever. It was also an IMAX film obviously shot digitally with different camera, but it was a conversation, like what scenes are in IMAX? Like, what does that look like? Who is that moviegoer? And it is Ryan. Like I would say I am more versed in it now because of him 100%. Like I went and saw the dark night, it blew my mind open. But very few, like, I think maybe only that film did I go see an IMAX, unless I saw a children's film in IMAX, like back in the day. And so when, yeah, those domes usually the science. Yeah, exactly. I'm pretty sure there's one in there that I might have seen. But, you know, Ryan was that ticket buyer. He was in line and he was excited for that experience. And so

he got me on board, you know, when we did Wakanda for that. you know kind of person in the theater and so yeah i mean it's always a conversation to get someone out of their seat and and to experience something um so that call happened and then he immediately called me and was like you know what let's talk about this like what does that look like and then that's when he brought up the 276 um you know to kind of explore that hateful eight and it was conversation but yeah it opened the door like once we were like we're going to shoot 35 um that call was very important from the studio because it's a different call if you're shooting digital, right? You know, because I think it's probably already on your mind if you're a digital shooter

because it's a, it's a IMAX for digital, which is like an adjustment of an aspect ratio. It's like two more hard drives. It's just completely different. It's not for me. I think I even said it when we did it before. I was like, this isn't real IMAX, though. Real Imax is, you know, there's only one team doing real imax you know like really doing it so it was nice to to now be you know someone else doing that um because as you know yeah there's there's one team doing it beautifully so well and you know it's thought with your guys as film i saw it certain with offenheimer when you see it projected because i saw i saw i saw abenheimer in digital and oh yeah tell me where you saw it first i suppose

or where you're sitting? That would have been Irbank. Okay. Tamp. So 1-9. You saw IMAX? Yeah, yeah.

1-9, yeah. And that actually, well, and when it's projected, the digital version, I'm sure, actually that brings up something about the DI. Digital, you know,

I'm sure it looks great, but when you see actual IMAX projection, even next to 70, it is shocking how much different, like how good it looks. Different, yeah. They're both different. Yeah. But the thing I was interested in asking you about was, you know, you'd mention that

the film was obviously like the hero look, you know, the debt, whatever. And so how, when you're when you're color grading it for digital, are there any challenges to that or is it pretty easy to just go it looks like that move, it looks like that move or are you taking advantage of the D.I. at all? Or you're like, well, we couldn't fix that with the film one, but here's a couple points of that. No, so I was

lucky enough to use where we've all, most of, I think even when I did indie work, I developed a relationship with photokem. So I came up shooting film, so it's a place that I enjoy going to and it was the first time I worked with Kostis

who's the finishing colorist for all of Christopher Nolan's films and has been working with him for a long time. So what was amazing is that I got to work with Costas on Last Showgirl and my daily's colorist John over there. So, you know, we developed a relationship. I was reintroduced to film because I hadn't shot a movie on film for a while. So it was a great process with shooting on film. Then we do a D.I. But we stay true to what the film looks like printed. And so, you know, in that case, you know, Kostas is the protector of the image, right? We know what it looks like when we print it and we want to keep all of those characteristics in the D.I. as well in that process. And

he's amazing at that. And I had an amazing time working with him. And so then fast forward, we do centers right after together. Same team. Same day's colors. John. And it was great because we did a lot of, you know, we did tests. We shot stuff and then we projected it and we looked at it, hair and makeup. We projected it and looked at it. So, you know, we're doing a side by side. So when it comes time to scan and do the DIY, we want to stay true to the prints and those black levels and the color and every single thing. So we matched.

And that became important. So he's the protector of that throughout the film, making sure the highlights. making sure the shadows, making sure the density of the blacks, the color in the blacks, all of that stays true. And he has a beautiful eye for that. So that's the most important thing is that when you're doing the DIY, that it feels like a print. Because we have to do VFX, right? We have to we have twinning. We have, you know, we're adding cotton to the fields. We're doing stuff like that. So there is that process that we do. But I think always keeping in mind what it felt like and looked like when we projected it. And so that goes for all the formats. Like we do an HDR, when we're doing

Blu-ray, when we're doing the digital projection, like it should all feel cohesive. And I feel like it does. And that's a testament to what Costas is doing, you know, throughout all those formats, because there's a lot of deliverables. So, you know, I'm watching it so many times, so many times in 70 projection um you know five print uh sorry 5p in um you know at photo cam i also went to the vista to look at their print i saw it at city walk um i saw a digital projection so all these things as you know um so yeah i hope that people you know that saw it multiple times feel that because does it get the re-release yeah it did so yesterday tickets opened up um and it is in theaters again in iMex for a week so you can go to city walk and see a film print 70 and then you can um

this podcast comes out next week okay yeah the 30th well the 30th is next week no what's the okay so yeah people have like yeah like three four days so okay yeah so it they just released um and it started selling out again because you know everyone you know wants to go see it in iMacs and get the right seats and sit, you know, in the right spot. So it's fun to be. That lower deck and city walk is a toughie. It's not. It's full, though. It's, I mean, I'm mind-blown because I went to a bunch of those screenings, you know,

and I took my mom and I went with my crew, and it was so emotional and great to just be in the environment and see how people reacted, but people were there in those seats and watching it. I didn't want them to have to sit that close, but if that was their only chance, to see it. I guess that's okay. But it's a huge, it's a huge difference when you just back up. Yeah. Well, and you did them all a favor by center punching everybody. So at least the heads were a little bit lower. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Because there's an optimal seat for sure. That was actually something I wanted to ask about because at my level, the worst question I get is, hey, can we shoot for bows? You know? The question. And you shot for four.

There's a lot there, yeah. So how, I know you had your little custom ground glass, made. But like what, you know, what stops you from, is it just an artistic choice to want to center punch everyone? Or did you think like I just want to make this easy on the, you know, why not go common top, for instance? I don't, I mean, to be honest, like in my work, if you look at my other stuff that predates, it's, I always tend to center punch. It's just something that I find creates a stronger frame. It's what I gravitate towards. I'm not a big short-sider, you know, I can do it, you know, from time to time to tell the story. But I always center-punch my close-ups.

I center-punch my wides. I mean, yeah, if you look, it's a thing that, you know, I would say is pretty consistent in my work. So, you know, in doing this film, and also I'm doing a lot of animorphic, you know, like I shoot a lot of movies in animorphic and projects in animorphic. So I'm familiar with having that wider field of view and how I like to tell a story with someone in the center. And if I'm doing overs, that person still stays consistent in the center. So, you know, this I think in general was more difficult because I'm now operating a camera and, you know, we're switching between formats, which means beautiful management of, you know, these two camera formats or camera systems by my AC, Ethan McDonald and my whole camera team.

But, you know, that's that's kind of where, you know, the logistics and like, you know, the stress would come into play is just, you know, managing all that stuff. But I didn't find it difficult to kind of center punch both formats because it's so ingrained in my brain. So it was actually, you know, something like I didn't find that hard. But I think what was difficult was that when you're shooting with ultra panitars and you have the 276, it's much wider than the 239, right? So you have a bigger field of view, and then you're like, all the sudden, you're like, you know, I'm telling Ryan, because Ryan sits very close to the camera. He's always next to me. I'm like, Ryan, you're in the shot. Ryan, you're in the shot. Because you have, it's so much. Right? You know, you see everything. You're like, I stand. Okay, I got to fix the stand and I got to do this and the set. You know, it's so wide. And I think you probably remember from hateful eight, it's very wide. And, you know, it's beautiful to tell that story. But you have to be very, you know, just militant about what's in the frame, especially, you know, in the eyepiece. Because you're. you know, the protector of that image. And you're the only one seeing the eyepiece, you know, very clearly. Yeah.

Well, and I know you, I just read the, I don't know, it's weird when I talk to people because I'm like, I've just been absorbing interviews for like a few days. Yeah. So I can't remember where I heard anything. And I can't remember if you said it or if I read it or what. But you were like under exposing everyone by like three stops. So I am, was that correct? That number?

Two, yeah. Two. So I imagine getting in the eyepiece probably could be scary from time to time, because it's just, especially in the barn. Yeah, no, you know, it's, I guess what I, I think what I was discussing mostly was, you know, I'm shooting at a 28. I'm shooting, and I'm saying that's wide open. The IMAX lenses do open up a bit more, but it falls apart more if you're, you know,

super wide open. So for me, wide open is 28 in that sense. Open the lens snaps in. A reasonable stuff. A reasonable stuff, yeah. And we opened up sometimes, you know, I'll open up a third or so if I feel like I need it. But it's definitely wide open on our anamorphics, you know, 2-8 is wide open, like, as far as you go. But for me, I think, you know, my relationship with film and shooting film previously is I love to spot meter everything because I want to see where everything is in relation to, like, grayscale.

And also just. own system maybe yeah and it's just you know you you have these little ticks that happen when you start out that you know follow you throughout your career and it's just how you operate and you know you're doing all the the math and the work in your head and so i'll spot meter but then i also have a camera um cheater meter a camera that i'll take stills um 70 i'll take stills and it'll just give me kind of heard it called a cheater meter yeah yeah well because it's not it can be used as a you know, a meter. You see DPs, right?

You see pictures of us on set with a little camera. I thought Hoyt was taking cool film photos. He's like, no, that's just so I can show Nolan, and then I delete it. I'm like, what? Yeah, no, it's definitely just, it's a reference, right? It's something, I mean, you have your meter, you're doing metering, but it's a reference and everyone has their, you know, camera of choice. I think I started using the 7D because my husband, you know, was something.

I think he used that on True Detective, and we had it, and so then I had one, and so that's what we have here, and it's heavy and old. Obviously, there's much newer cameras now, but I like, I just like it. The image is obviously a little darker, but I use that, so I'll take pictures and I'll work in the stop and, you know, Dake's dear, I'll work in either shutter down or use the ISO to get me to the same math as I'm shooting, my shooting stop and whatever ND I have in the camera. but yeah i mean it's it's all a process that's in your own head it's all a reference for you because you're you're the harbor of that image right no one else knows what this is going to look like

until it gets developed you know you have an hd tap but it's in their reference it's an hd tap and then you can take some pictures as a reference but it's here you know it's there's a trust factor um with the person that's exposing it until the daly's come in and everyone you know gets to see it for themselves but um but yeah i mean i tend to under expose um you know i had the same kind of dogma and I've always kind of done that you know just as far as like skin tones whether it's a Caucasian or if it's we're looking at black or brown or whatever it is that there's depth in the skin tone so I approach it the same as I did on last showgirl even though it's a you know 16 millimeter um resolution and then you're now jumping to 15 completely different

but same process for me um where I'm spotting and you know I tend under exposed by two stops on the key that's on the face. And, you know, when we're doing night exterior, same process. And so, yeah, it's where you let everything sit for your taste level. And then you're doing your tests and you're watching it projected and you're finding the right zone. And everyone has to be okay with that, you know, like, you know, and your testing director and producers and everyone's there watching, you know, the dailies, you know, in hair makeup or your earlier tests. And you're giving them kind of a vision of how you like to expose and you're getting feedback. Like, is everyone comfortable with this? Is everyone okay with where the shadows are sitting? How people are

falling in and out of darkness, how, you know, eyes are looking, how this top light that I'm always using looks. And Ryan's really great because he, you know, he's a brave filmmaker that supports that vision because it's a character, becomes a character when you create that type of darkness and you're offering that up as a storytelling device, you know, people falling in and out of shadows. He has hats on everyone, you know, that plays a big role. It was always joking with him because I was always frustrated, but I loved all the hats, but it's difficult.

You know, hats can be difficult, especially when they're wearing them inside, you know, or in a night when only the moon is, you know, the light source. So, yeah, I always feel like it's a personal relationship with how you expose and, you know, you want to surround yourself with people that are on board with that if you're working in the toe and you're doing under exposure. yeah i i too am drawn to that look uh for the most part i don't shoot a lot of film i mean stills i'll still shoot film i have like a medium format camera but um personally i find that digital is like i get more scared shooting digital and being wacky with exposures than film for i don't know

if that makes yeah no no yeah it's just personal yeah digital feels like i need to like get the perfect exposure and then just bring it down and post so it doesn't look like shit whereas if you're under-exposed film by two stops let's rant you're like hell yeah sweet do that on digital you're like that's noisy no no it's I mean there it's wherever you feel comfortable and you excel and you are the most inspired I was talking I did a um a AC master class last night it was just a talk and they were screening centers at iMacs and i was talking to students and they someone asked a technical question about like exposure and silver and you know and i and i answered and i said okay well i said you know what to be honest it's so personal right because you have to sit with this

you know and you're on set for all these hours you're telling the story your name goes on it you're there to support the director with their vision but you also have to enjoy and like what you're doing right I find that, you know, your work is going to excel when you open yourself up to that. If you're working for other people, if you're exposing for other people, if you're framing for someone else or what you think you should be doing, it's not going to turn out good. And it's not going to be from your heart and you're going to feel that. So I think, yeah, digital, you know, everyone is there sitting at a monitor. You're getting the perfect image back to see, ideally, right? you're showing them something that is probably what it's going to look like.

And, you know, I tend to, like, when I shoot digital, I give them exactly what's going to, what they're going to see in the theater as close to. It obviously looks better when we do the DIY. But I try to do that. Like, I create a lot that's, you know, filmic, but similar to what the final let is, should be the same lot. And then I light it so that it looks, you know, I'm not doing a ton of big changes in post.

I'm fixing, you know, vignetting and doing stuff like that. But it becomes more of, like you say, it's like, it's in your head too much, you're overthinking it because there's hundreds of people looking at the monitor going like, you know, with their opinions. Oh, yeah, that's the worst. Yeah, I like the more personal. Yeah, exactly. So I know

exactly what you're talking about. But, yeah, try and, you know, trial and error early on and having that personal relationship where you feel excited about it and you're inspired by it and you don't, you're not thinking about too many other people. Yeah. helpful. You know, the, this is a

slight pivot, but again, All over the place. But I remember when the second season, Loki came out. Wait, you shot the second season, right? First. First season. Okay, no. OG.

Yes, thank you. Because now I remember what I actually meant. Because I remember the second season going like, oh, and then I interviewed that guy. He was cool. But the first season looked really good. And I really wanted to talk to you about it when it came out. And then I didn't. Now you're here.

But it had a very, I'm a big David Fincher fan. And I saw that you had a bunch of Fincharian influences when you should get, you know, a lot of ceiling, obviously in the exposure levels and stuff. And I was wondering if you could talk me through, you know, obviously that was a number of years ago. But just kind of how you got Disney of all people to buy on to, because that show didn't look like anything else they were making at the time. and I've heard that Marvel's pretty cool with like people choosing their own adventure when it comes to this stuff but that first season of Loki looked particularly legit no it's cool um yeah I mean it was such a special time I don't I always respond with it's just as I remember it is a very difficult time because I don't know if you remember but it was COVID like when so we went to into production and we started we were about we're prepping and

we shot for it now I can't even remember like a little bit and then it was like okay everyone go home for a week six months later stop moving exactly so you know it's very interesting time and also that it was

a new world for them you know they were doing these three streamers and they were all very different and the filmmakers were going to do all six episodes. And I know how that works because when my husband did True Detective, it was, you know, groundbreaking series, but also they did every episode. And the filmmakers, when you do every episode, by the end, you are almost dead. I mean, I don't know how to explain it. Besides, it's exhausting because there's nobody like catching you and helping you when you're trying

to prep and shoot, like you're doing it all yourself. So with Loki was interesting because we did have that gap to kind of catch up and we still. worked during the pandemic and did zooms and prepped as much as we could. But after that hit the ground running and had to shoot all six episodes. We do it all ourselves. So I think mainly because they were so supportive, it was a new avenue. We wanted it to feel like a movie, but it was going to be six episodes. Tom is the most wonderful human being, an actor. And he was so supportive of an open to this new world that Kate wanted to create. And she picked really amazing HODs that got along and just this collection of great people that I think worked really well together.

I remember when I met the production designer Casra. And we just hit it off. Like I walked into his office and he had all this stuff up, all this like brutalist architecture references. And I had a smile on my face from here to here. And I was just like, I cannot wait to light these sets. We're going to fucking kill this. You know, it was just like, it was. like level up. Like we were all in there. We were like, we are going to kill this. And, you know, we had the support team and they surrounded us with all these amazing artisans, you know, we're in Atlanta, SFX, you know, stunts. And it was, it was just fun, you know. And when you have that support and you can think big and you actually have time and money and, you know, all these

really cool people that I think this would be their biggest project. Like everyone was the same where it was like we didn't have a big thing yet and so we kind of wanted to you know come out the gate strong so and when i had my meeting with kate we all we both had the same references like when we talked about you know we're talking about fincher and zodiac and you know blade runner like she was referencing you know she brought in a tv and she turned it on and had her look book and i gave her a look book and it was the same shit so it was like you know that that that's reflected in what you see when people are on the same page and and she's allowing me me to like create interesting frames and you know we fought for ceilings because that's also new

with marvel it's like it's very expensive to put a ceiling in every set you know in many many sets and that was supported and we've you know our team and our producer kevin and you know kate would you know express kind of how important it was to give them and tom and bring in the actors and have a full space and look up and you know feel that weight of the ceiling because it's all part of you know the acting and the world um so yeah i mean it's just i would say it was a really fun time for me um to kind of express myself and it was the zone that i like to operate in you know i like to frame like um the darkness the shadows and the mystery and then yeah it was fun it's a really good time so i'm glad you enjoyed it you know that i wish i wish we could have talked back then but

it's nice to talk now yeah it was it was i just remember because i'm not like the world's biggest marble guy. Yeah, but I do remember like popping that on and just going, I think I marathoned it. I think I was just like,

this is great. I don't know what's happening in here because it's been a long time since I've seen it. I just, I do remember being pulled over by, by the look you were able to get out of it. Just thinking like this cool and different.

It's sexy. It looked good. But I guess that's something that would be an interesting like tie back to sinners is like, So you've got, let's just call it all the sport in the world from Marvel to make, you know, one of their temple things, versus a more reserved approach with centers. In what ways is that helpful or hurtful, you know, having all these resources, is that always great, you know, or being more, not that centers is like low budget, but, you know, it's just from what I've seen, it feels a little bit more like. familial versus like the sort of bureaucratic monster that can't be is the York corporation and I used to work at ABC so I can say that I was a cast member

I mean it's interesting because you know I did Loki and then I did Wiconda forever with Ryan which you know like I said Loki was big for the for what it was at the time because they were making a series but it had enough support that felt like a film and then you know Panther was even bigger So, you know, to do like a movie. And then we shot for a very long time. So Ryan and I spent a lot of time together and I spent a lot of time with his family and the team that he built. And so, you know, we have a way in which we like to work.

You know, we've developed that now. And sinners, it was completely different storytelling in a completely different location and, you know, twinning and mostly in camera and shooting large format. And so similar in the sense that we approach it the same way. We're with the same family making it. He has so much heart. And, you know, he cares about his audiences. And so, you know, both films, even though one's different, is based off of, you know, something that we're, you know,

a character that we're familiar with and that people have told that story a lot of different ways. This is something completely new. And you have to really open. up your mind because you don't have a reference, right? Your reference is, you know, the first reference he gave me was a book of photographs from Yodora Welty, who is a photographer and a short storywriter back in the 1930s, black and white photos. And he's like, you got to get this book, sis, and I went and got it and I looked at it. And I immediately knew what he was after. You know,

what, you know, it's, the inspiration comes from his uncle. And so it's very personal, right, where this comes from so that is a story that has you know historical value but also speaks to our ancestry and the people that made it you know and where they come where they came from so so it's different in that sense it's more personal and you have you know you're looking at an old photograph and you're trying to recreate that and you know it's it's not like a big blue screen that maybe you don't know exactly what that world looks like the day or shooting it you have a concept, and then the concept changes in post, completely different brain set. But it was supported, like, we, you know, to be able to shoot large format, you need, you know,

we need these camera systems, we need to operate in a certain way. Crew-wise, we need to... Technicians to fix it. Exactly, exactly. And then also we're putting it on a techno dolly. There's a lot of repeatable stuff we're doing for the twinning. You know, the weather is now approaching and creates, you know, difficulty for us in New Orleans. And so there's all this like pivoting that has to occur, you know, just based off of how a set is run when you're shooting these formats.

But it still felt supported. It's still, because there's just logistics that need to happen when you're shooting film that needs that support. And we had the best crew. And, you know, my guys were amazing. My guys and girls were amazing. And so, you know, they allow us to be creative and to put the camera on a techno crane or to put the camera on a dolly or to put it on a steady can. or go handheld, even though the cameras are large. And that's really, you know, up to the people you work with to make it that great.

So, yeah, a different budget level, but also able to tell a great story and didn't. I mean, I would say when you're working in a place like that, the weather becomes kind of the conflict. I mean, days are always the conflict, but weather plays a part in that. you know if you you need a week to shoot something and then half of it's stolen by a you know a storm you said god doesn't take amics just chill for like one week no all right yeah no but then do you get this happy accidents that we always talk about right i mean weather can bring hell and and weather can also bring the most beauty you'll ever see you know natural

beauty you know i'm even have to bring a light out you know it does it for you so um I did want to ask about the lighting because the whole thing feels not unlit. And obviously it wasn't not lit, but you were able to really not accurate. What am I looking for? It just looks like it is. You know, it looks unaffected in a way that it's very beautiful. And I was wondering if you could perhaps help me try to achieve that in my own life. You know, what I saw in the ASC.

article that you did that even just the barn was what gem balls and then just some T-12s bounced into some unbleached muslin and that was kind of the gig and you just move the balls around yeah so I think the approach because you know there's stuff yeah yeah there's stuff that you have to adhere to because of the time period right um Ryan was great we he wanted to shoot a scene where we saw um them tapping into the electricity which, you know, was only few people had it at the time. So they tapped it into it. So in the juke joint, they could have, you know, some Edison bulbs and have, you know, different sources because there were kerosene lanterns at the time as well. So it was a mixture of like, you know, you saw

some of the string lights and then you had lanterns. So right off the bat, you kind of know what that looks like. And so you work with that in mind knowing that you're going to have that mixture. And Hannah, our production designer, is great. So it's a discussion with her, like, can you, you know, what practical sources can you give me and, you know, are those hats or are they bare bulbs? Or, you know, so we had those discussions and, you know, we talked about, like, she helped me, you know, well, I want a bear a bulb here because we know some blocking is going to happen here.

And here may be a hat because it'll be more contained and, you know, and not, you know, shit all over the walls and stuff like that. But, yeah, it's a conversation. And then I think for me, you know, I work with the same crew. My crew's amazing. I've been working with the same gaffer for over 10 years, Brian Bartolini. And he also did Panther with me, so he's also knows Ryan. Same with Ethan.

I've been working with him for a very long time. My key grip on this, Miguel, he was someone who I worked in commercials mostly, and then did additional photography on Panther, so Ryan would have met him there. But it was a big film, you know, to have him come and join the team. and my grip team did an amazing job because it's not easy to execute all this stuff, you know, in that environment and doing all that. So, so it's a great, you know, kind of everyone has similar taste.

I've worked with them for many years. And, you know, when we approach something, we want it to feel realistic, but we also want to give Ryan the flexibility to move around. We shoot two cameras. We always have an ensemble cast. The sets are always beautiful, right? They have so much texture. So I want to be able to feel that, and I want to be able to shoot that.

So I tend to keep my units above. I tend to like top light, which allows me to kind of move around faster, but also create an environment like we were talking about Loki, where you walk on set and you feel like it's a full environment. So you're working with the designer in order to say, where does this motivation come from? Oh, the windows, what kind of treatment are we going to put on the windows in the mill so that you can't see outside, but also it's thick enough. and has color and texture. And so these are all amazing conversations and my best collaborator is my designer, my production designer.

And so Hannah and I, you know, spent a whole year together on Panther, which is huge and she loves building huge sets. But she does so much homework and research to create this authentic texture that I want to be true to that. So when it comes time to light this stuff, because you have nothing without the space,

you know, I take very much, like, I take a lot of care in making it feel real, but also, you know, elevating it so it looks, it can be naturalistic, but also slightly stylized. And so, yes, we did gem balls was kind of, I think with Brian, we did some testing. And he was like, I think, you know, let's look at some gem balls. I think that would be kind of the quality that you're looking for because he knows I like more of a diffused warm source. And I tend to ask for more diffusion. Like when I put one layer, it's not enough.

I put another layer. So we double diffused the gem balls. That was our key light. You've mixed up diffusion before. It's not like just three layers of the same thing, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, for sure. I mean, it depends.

Like, I'll use, like, say, I'll break the light. You know, say if I have a source outside, an HMI source, you know, I might cut it with some half soft frost, but then closer to the actor to soften it again. You know, I'll use some grid or if I want it really soft. I'll use magic cloth. But it's all kind of trial and error like early on and looking. at skin tone because like sometimes you know you break the light with the grid and you have a very reflective person and you can feel that reflective nature in their skin tone like it's a light like it looks like a light so then you kind of just choose different diffusions based off of how you want it

to look how the key light looks on the skin maybe the person's you know sweaty or maybe they've got you know a lot of powder so it's all these like different layers that you're creating and being cognizant of and to get the final result, which is what you're looking at saying, you know, this doesn't look lit. This looks great. But there's all these things going on that you don't know to get us to the doesn't look lit place. And that's just paying attention. I mean, really looking at the skin and changing out the stuff. And then, yeah, the T-12s were, that's to help because we have to have this ambient, you know, you have the gem balls that we're using and adjusting and moving around for the key light. But overall ambience, because I'm shooting five.

100 t but i'm also under exposing a couple stops from what the lens is at so um you know you need that base ambience around the whole um you know lumber mill and so were you what was it all just like same color temperature across the board trying to yeah um i mean you know with the gem ball when you know it's on a dimmer it's going to get warmer so you try to do that like instead of dimming down you try to put some bobby net or you know you bring in um a flag you know a net you know at the ball but my team's great at making sure that, like, we have that cohesiveness and consistency, you know, throughout, you know, so I sometimes when I'm trying to be quick, I would be like, you know, bri, dim it down, but then, you know, he's like, it's going to get, you know, too warm and, you know, we're shooting films. So we always have to kind of, you know, have our ducks in a row and make sure, or ideally, you know, you want things to be consistent. So then we'd break it a different way with some net, you know, rapid on the jumble. But yeah, I mean, I mean, I I think, for me, it's, I get an aversion when I see something that I feel is too lit, you know. And so, you know, even on something like Loki where you, you know, it's definitely more lit and it's in an environment where you can be more stylized, but it should still feel of the space, right?

The lighting that you're, you know, giving that lit look should feel like it comes from the brutalist architecture. So that's really just working with the designer. And that's a very exciting collaboration for me. I really do enjoy working with the designer. Yeah, I mean, I've probably said this once an episode, but my joke has always been that a lot of DPs have won awards based on what the production designer did. Yeah.

It's like, I love the way that looked. And I'm like, I, you know, I'm making up this person. But like, I just shot it on the cleanest thing pot. I don't know. I didn't do a lot. Yeah. But I guess that does, I was going to follow up to the mill stuff with how were you handling lighting outside because again i only have so many uh behind this and spottos to work with

and it just looked very very simple you know it just looked like oh here's some obviously the car rig was a little more involved but yeah you know just uh when he's offering that one the the beer in exchange for services like it just looked like one what just like one six by or not even that um where where the beer oh you mean inside or you mean the train station oh yeah no no ring the dead like how are you handling daylight Because all that daylight stuff looks rad. And obviously there's something to be sit. I'm noticing a lot online people like,

how do I achieve this look? And it's like under exposed hard sunlight. Yeah. No, yeah. Yeah. Some people have sent me. Yeah, some people have sent me some breakdowns, which I think are,

it's always flattering. Like, you know, when people dive in and they try and dissect and, you know, whether they're wrong or right, you know, it's obviously the people, on set note um but i will send you one that probably was wrong yeah i'll send you um some bt s that you can look at i should have sent to you before but i'll send it to um uh you know because i yeah i have a folder but just so you have something to look at when you're thinking about it but um no the train station was super super complex setup um and it is really yeah yeah sweet all right but no i mean i guess i say

that, I mean, you have to, you have to know what we're dealing with. So we're shooting at a train station. There is no train. Like, we tried to get a train. It's a very difficult thing to get a period train. We shot an actual train station in Bougalusa, in Louisiana. And a train still does run on that track, but not the right train for what we needed for the time period. So there are tracks there and there's a depot. And Hannah, you know, design the whole thing as far as like, you know, you know, art directing what that looks like in that period. The people, the costumes are all there for that look. But the structure itself need to be altered. So she's altering it to make it, you know, of the time and place. But as far as the train, that was done in post. So I have like,

I don't know, 200 plus or so feet of green screen. you know, lining the tracks, so they have to close the track down when we're shooting. And it's lining the tracks we used. We SFX and BFX came up with this smoke machine that could roll on the tracks to give a reference of what the smoke, you know, the stack that comes out of the train. So when we're doing the wide shot, we have that reference of actual smoke going through as if it's the train when they put the train in later. But what I also have to do is, you know, there's a lot of dialogue and

And there are a lot of scenes within, you know, that train station sequence. So I tend to take away all the sunlight in order to recreate it so that I have consistency while I'm shooting. So I had big 40 by 40 black solids on construction cranes blocking the sun over the train station. And what's great about, you know, we've worked with my VFX supervisor before on Pam. He was a second unit VFX supervisor. So him and I have a shorthand, and we work great together. And so, you know, we're doing previs, and he's in previs asking me what kind of units and what kind of overheads I have.

So we have a sun path that we know how the sun moves so that I can plug in, you know, unreal engine, in unreal engine plug in the different kind of overheads that I have so we can see that path and know what directions to shoot. So I make an overhead that I work with, and I give the AD and Ryan and go over. with them and say, you know what, this is the best time to shoot this direction, this is the best time to shoot that direction. Are you okay with us breaking the coverage up because the sun is going to be here? I want to use the sun or the sun is not favorable over here, so I want to block it, blah, blah, blah. There's all this stuff that goes on. And then I'm bringing in lights to create my own sun because I've blocked the sun out when I'm mostly shooting. If I'm in a frontlit direction, I want to block all of that and then light it so that it has shape. So yeah, I I mean, it's a difficult, that's a big setup. And not only because we didn't have a train, but also because I am taking out the sun at a very long, you know, 200 feet or so, you know, that's shining on that depot.

And so that means across the way we need to get permits to make sure we can put down base to put construction cranes on that weigh a lot, blah, blah, blah, blocks. And then you have a bunch of green screens on petty bones. But yeah, I mean, with the intention of making it feel and look like the sun. So, and that's just, you know, something over the years that I have with the sun where I don't like my day exteriors to be too bright. Like, I tend to take down my day exterior so that it feels, because I under expose so much that I don't want when you go to a dark scene, you know, the day exterior to just hit you like a ton of bricks. So I always bring down my skies and under expose the highlight. yeah well advertising lied to me

who would have saw it but I'll send you a picture so you can see because yes please it's helpful to see what I'm talking about obviously I've kept you a little over so I let you go but I did oh wait all right two questions one you got to use actacromo

you didn't use ectrochrome all the time why just because they didn't make you a lot of it or was there a specific reason when you used it yeah no um it's funny because I did a talk with Ryan at Kodak. We did a Kodak house talk. And he was saying, like, it was his idea. And we work with Vanessa Bendetti at Kodak, who's amazing. She's a had a motion picture. And so. At her at some of those Kodak house. The talks, yeah, lovely. And so she, with Ryan and our

producers were talking about Ectrochrome and they've never made Ecterrome for 65. And our line producer also worked on Euphoria. So he was familiar, obviously, with that. And so a conversation came up with Ryan. And so it's more about like, let's try to make it, see how much we can make for you in time, because it was, conversation kind of happened, you know, maybe later in prep. So they still have to turn it around, make sure it, you know, works when they're building it, making it, and then get it to us. So I forget how many feet we got, but, you know, say it was like, I don't know, 8,000. feet of ectchrome. So it's only 16 minutes.

Well, it depends on which format you're shooting it on, right? You know, if you're shooting it 15. Oh, did you have it in multiple formats? Well, no. So the way it works is like it's 65 millimeter film. And when I run it through the System 65 camera and I shoot the four, it's five perforations. But if I throw it in an IMAX camera, I'm using 15 perforations. So it's the same film.

It just depends on the camera you loaded in. So the ectrochrome. Oh, no, it's okay. They made it for us. And I laughed because Ryan was like, let's shoot it. Like, let's get it out. Let's shoot it. But it's, you know, 100 speed ectrochrome. And it used a lot of light. So I was always like, I'll get to it. I have a lot going on. I'll get to it. And it obviously had to be day exterior when I worked it in there, you know, and at the right moment. But, you know, we had a lot to do. So I think on the last day of our day exterior, we were out at our exterior location, you know, our mills. set because she built us a three-wall facade, you know, mill that we had a little hallway where we can open the door. And so we're on that set. And what are we doing? I think it was maybe the Hogwood shootout.

So I had my camera team loaded up. I said, load it up in the IMAX camera when I get to it. Just make sure you tell me that I shoot this because it's the last day I can shoot this because I'm not shooting it inside because then just need a ton of light. And so we had it loaded up and we were literally about to wrap. I forgot. And I was like, you know, let's shoot this. So Ryan and I were shooting some of the guys jumping out of the truck and kind of, you know, just textural stuff, portraiture stuff of, you know, the workers and, you know, jumping off the truck and walking towards us. And so we shot it really

quickly right before the sun went down. And he ended up finding a place and a home for it in the cut. Because we always had this idea of like doing this portraiture stuff, which we did, you know, and he made a montage with him and Michael Schaver, who's our wonderful editor, and working this stuff in in a way that felt, you know, of the piece, but we did only shoot just a little bit of it. So if you, it's at the end of the film in the montage when smoke is sitting on the trunk,

and he's thinking back of when they were starting, you know, earlier in the day because it's a one-day thing. And it cuts to different portraits of like people that were making the mill or making the juke joint and getting it set up for the evening. evening and that's where it was and that's that's the home it found so um so yeah it was the first time we shot or that ectrochrome was shot ever on 65 and and they made it for us and so i still have some of it um so yeah yeah um but no it was a beautiful experience to have that and um and be the first person to ever shoot that because when you watch it projected because we did

we watched um some print of the dailies of that and it's just so it's beautiful it's really cool and iMacs specific i mean like i said i shoot a lot of meeting format like that look especially with portraiture is different you know yeah it's striking it's reversal so it's very striking yeah um so that's an excellent use case for that um final question because i like to embarrass him because it's my friend uh i was getting lunch with larry fong a few weeks a few months ago oh larry yeah and i can't remember why you came up, but you did. And I was wondering, how do you know, Larry? And please give me embarrassing stories. Okay. I'm trying to think when we connected. I haven't talked to him in a long time. He disappears on me. Yeah, he does. Yeah. I think we met at the

clubhouse, you know, at some point. And then later on, we were connected. And then later on, we were connecting for a reason that is escaping me now. And, you know, messaging and texting. Maybe we were going to do a talk, I think, or something like that. But yeah, he's so lovely and just lovely person. But we haven't spent, you know, as much time together as, you know, like, it's always hard to commune with DPs because they're all over the place. But I have, I've yet to see him do magic tricks.

So that would be impossible. I mean, that's what I'm saying. I need to, you know, that's why we're friends. Yeah. Yeah. He's got these around. Yeah, yeah. But no, he's lovely.

Like, he's lovely. I don't have any great stories, but I'll go collect one and then our next talk for our next film. I'll come with a story for you for him. Yep. All right. Well, I will let you go get lunch or whatever you're going to do. And hopefully we'll talk soon. Cool.

Thank you. And I'll send you so you can see whatever I have. Yes, yes, please. Yeah, the BTS and the what I put down, the Dan Sasaki thing. And then I'll email you back when I figure out the Larry thing. Okay, sounds good. Okay, thanks. Take care.

Bye. Frame and Reference is an Albot production, produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so by going to frame and refpod.com and clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated, and as always, thanks for listening. I don't know. I don't know.