Frame & Reference Podcast - 22: “Pretend It's A City” DP Ellen Kuras, ASC

Episode Date: June 17, 2021

On todays episode of the Frame & Reference Podcast, Kenny talks with Ellen Kuras, ASC about the new Netflix series “Pretend It’s A City.” Ellen is an Oscar nominated and Emmy winning filmmaker with credits such as “Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind”, “The Betrayal” and “P.O.V.” She has also directed episodes of “The Umbrella Academy”, “Catch-22”, “Ozark”, and “Legion.” Make sure to check out her full IMDb and give “Pretend It’s A City” a watch on Netflix! Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coasts leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out Filmtools.com for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for the latest news coming out of the industry. Check out ProVideoCoalition.com for more!

Hello, and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and today we're talking with Ellen Curris, ASC, the DP of the new series, Pretend It's a City, which focuses on Fran Leibowitz, essentially through the eyes of Martin Scorsese, because the whole series is basically Fran talking with Marty cackling in the background, but it's a lot of fun. Ellen is insanely talented, amazing career. She shot Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, Blow, bamboozled. I mean, there's just a let's go check out her IMD policy.

She's also director, directed a few episodes of The Umbrella Academy, which is one of our favorite shows of recent release, Ozark, et cetera, et cetera. So just, you know, I was very privileged to have this conversation with Ellen. So I am going to let you listen to it now. So I'm going to shut up.

And here's my conversation with Ellen Curris, ASC. The way that I like to start every podcast is, you know, because we all come from different places, is just what got you into cinematography, Were you always a visual person or did you come from like a photography background or did you kind of happen into it? I kind of came to it as a director, as a filmmaker, you know, because I watched movies for a long time. When I was a kid, we had one movie theater in our town that played the same movie for six weeks. So, you know, I had to go see it numerous times.

And I remember seeing 2001 for the first time and just being completely. be blown away. And then, you know, kind of on the anthropological side, I saw a movie called Billy Jack, and that kind of opened my eyes to, you know, so showing that you could, you know, base a story on a real life situation and then change people's perspective about it. And then, so I kind of left cinema and movies behind because I went into a more academic field. You know, I was into history and language. and that kind of thing. And it wasn't until I was in college

that my second year, I ended up taking a class in photography at the Rhode Island School of Design because I went to Brown. And the moment I heard that I could take, you know, classes at RISD, I was like, I'm there because I had always wanted to go to art school. My parents would never let me go to art school.

So I took this photography class and it changed my life. You know, the first time I looked through the viewfinder, I thought, oh my God, you know, the different world. It was the first time I really looked at light in a different way. You know, I just, I looked at depth in a different way and was starting to learn how depth of field works

and how you can really, you know, choose your point of view. And so, you know, the camera always stayed with me and I would take pictures, but I was always somebody who thought more globally about, you know, meaning. And so I ended up getting more interested in film at that point and decided I would, you know, mix film and photography. And then when I got out of college, I took some classes at NYU at night for a thesis project. And I had to, for a master's, and I had to think of a thesis project.

So that's where I was like, all right, I'm going to make a film. And so in making that film, I, you know, was thinking of it as a director. I was thinking of the shots I wanted to do, you know, the voiceover or the kind of things I wanted to interview. and I was interested in doing a film that was kind of the intersection of fiction and documentary which nobody was doing at the time. I mean, we're talking about, you know,

the early mid-80s. And, you know, MTV was just starting at that time. But people were thinking about that. It was either docu-drama or it wasn't. And so I started making this film and I hired a cinematographer on the little money I had from a grant. and I didn't really know him

he was recommended to me you know really great guy do commercials and you know I tried to explain to him what I was looking for with the images and how I wanted to put together

in relationship the people that we were going to be shooting and we were shooting in film 16 millimeter and when I got the dailies back I was looking at the dailies and I was like you know they're really nicely shot

you know the light was not nicely done and you know he positioned himself in the right spot and and and I was there with him but there was something that was missing and I couldn't put my finger on it I was like it's just it's just not doing something for me so that's when I decided to pick up the camera myself you know and having had the camera on my hands already already knew that you know you can put into relationships people and objects and space, and it has meaning to it. And I thought, that's what I want to explore. So it started this exploration for me of picking up the camera and trying to find meaning.

How do I create meaning with the lens? How do I create meaning with movement? And that began an inquiry, which is still going on today. It's kind of an exploration of meaning through. cinematography and now through directing. And so I've gone back to directing. You know, I've almost come full circle. And I just came from a meeting working.

I'm working with Darren Liu on a project. And he's this great DP. And it's so much fun for both of us. And you hear the sounds of New York City beyond. You know, it was so much fun for Darren and I to actually get together and speak the same language. And he was so excited, he says, you know, we can shortcut, you know, we can shorthand. It's like, you know what I'm talking about.

I know what you're talking about. So there's a certain kind of language that speaking about visual language. So, you know, it's almost like, you know, we understand what the idea of metaphor is and how we're trying to get to a certain idea visually. So, you know, for me, I couldn't be more thankful for having had a real, journey in cinematography because now I feel like I know what that is and it's still for me something I'm learning about every day and trying different things. Yeah, it's like medical practice.

You know, it's a practice. It's not a thing when I think now more than ever probably, I don't know if you would agree, but like now or never I feel like DPs have to have sort of that multidisciplinary approach You know, you can't just because everyone, quote unquote, everyone kind of knows the DP's job now because it's cinematography has become much more accessible. It feels like the most successful DPs are also directors are also big one for me is editing knowing like being really good at edit. I don't want to toot my own horn there. But like being proficient at editing made me a much better cinematographer because I knew what shots I, especially for like the AD or whatever. I knew what shots we could get rid of because I'm like, honestly, we're not going to use that.

I can guarantee you we're not going to use that angle. Let's just do this other one. Well, that makes a big difference because I, as always, as a cinematographer, and this is something that I developed over time, but always was thinking about how is this going to cut together. Because even from the very first days, you know, if you do, you start shooting all white shots because they're cool, they're never going to get cut together.

Unless that's part of the stylistic approach of the piece, you know. But you have to decide that in advance. So always in my mind's eye, I'm thinking about what is the editor going to need to tell this story? What are the, not only the angles, but, you know, should I zoom in and get a close-up of this or should I do that? You know, so I'm constantly having a conversation with myself in my head about, you know, what it is, how this thing is going to be edited together. And so, you know, as you know, editing could take different forms. It could be, you know, really long, languorous shots. Like the director could say, I want to do five minutes of voiceover over two shots.

So those are the kind of things that you take into consideration when you're approaching, you know, the blocking and the camera and what the camera is going to do. And so, yeah, editing is kind of key to know. You have to think about it in your editing it in your head as you go along. And that enables you to ask questions of the director and say, so. you know do you think that you're going to see this you think you might want this because not they're not always thinking about that so you know a lot of time the directors are so into what's happening in the action and looking around them so they're not thinking of those things and that's part of your job and part of your job is to you know get into the mind's eye of the director and understand the story that the director wants to tell and try to try to, you know, augment that vision and try to realize that vision, but also on your part is, you know, what's the story you want to tell with the camera and with light and all of that kind of stuff, you know? So you're, there's lots of different elements that go into it. And so I think that,

you know, nowadays being a cinematographer is, it's a lot to think about because the technology changes so fast. And, uh, you have to understand, you know, the difference between the digital and, you know, what it's going to happen in post and all of this kind of stuff. So there's because there's many more options than there ever were. But the fundamentals are still the same, you know. So think about it, it just boils down to the same kind of things. And, you know, that's the, you know,

the landscape of cinema photography has changed so much because many more people have access to cameras. I mean, when I was starting, I had to rent a camera. It was a film camera. I couldn't afford a film camera at the time. So I had to rent one. So I couldn't go out that much.

So to practice with it was a real challenge, which is why everybody did Super 8. You had to wait for the film to be developed. But now anybody can pick up the camera. They can use their phone or whatever. But therein lies the difference. So, you know, what's the difference? Is the point of view is the difference?

and how people shoot it. You know, like, anybody can shoot, but not everybody can shoot. The thing that's been interesting is, you know, everyone's saying, anyone can pick up a camera, but not everyone speaks the language. And it feels like the language of cinema is sort of being diluted by popular content, I guess, is the cheapest way to put it. Where did you learn that language or how did you learn that language? did you find, how did you figure out how to put meaning into a shot or what the difference was

between them? It's a really good question. I mean, part of it is intuitive, but part of it is also knowing, you know, knowing what happens if a person, you know, comes to the window and they say their line and then they turn and they look out the window, it has a certain meaning to it. And it has to do with a lot of our cultural collective that we experience or we gather over the course of our lifetimes, you know, of thinking about, you know, what does a look mean? You know, what does a turn of a head mean or a gesture or, you know,

somebody running across the field, you know, as a little tiny person running across the field at the bottom of the frame versus doing a close-up and following them on a long lens. So it has a different feeling to it. And there's a different sensibility and different metaphor. That's, I'm glad you said feeling. This is something that I've been ruminating on for a minute now, which is not a literal minute, but like a few weeks now it feels. It feels like art is becoming much more clinical.

You know, I'm starting to use all the words that frame used in the ceiling, the visual arts. It's becoming more clinical where there is a quote unquote correct answer. Where you don't feel, it's not feeling based anymore. It's not, it doesn't listen to response. It's checking a box. This is what you were supposed to do. Do you feel that that's happening or am I losing my mind?

No, I do. I do think that it's, it's become, it's almost like our lives are out here, you know, and that people are experiencing our lives out there rather than checking him at their inner voices and actually looking out at the world around them. I mean, that's the whole thing about with France and particularly. and the reason why I love this series because, you know, it has great meaning about what our lives used to be like when before we had the devices all around and that people would actually look out and look in front of them and look around them and look down to see what's going on

around them. We don't do that anymore. Everybody is going from A to B and in the interim time were in our phones. And to me, the classic kind of example of that is are these apps that are map apps, like Waze and Google Maps and everything. And so most of the time now, and I find the younger generation, they use them automatically, even if they're walking down the street, right? It's like, how do I get to 34th Street? I remember when I was younger and you get out of the subway and it's like, okay, where am I going?

you know, is it uptown or downtown? And then you figure out, it's like either you walk the block and you see what the next street is, or you look at the sun or you look at, okay, that traffic goes uptown and this is downtown and you use your brain to figure it out. Now, what's happening is on, you know, it's like when you use, you put in the address

and then it has an arrow. And the furthest you can see is the next block. So your vision is my optic right here. And everybody is going around like this. And they're believing what this app is telling them. So it's like that to me is a metaphor for life today with what's happening is everybody is going around like this and following what the app is telling them, right? So is that how you're going to live your life?

You don't look at the map or you don't look at the bigger view to see how you're going. So you have the broader perspective. So you're looking far. You're not looking here. If you ride a motorcycle and you look here, you're dead. Right. You're riding a motorcycle. You have to look ahead.

So you can anticipate what's coming up and see where you're going to and to know, you know, the route. And now everybody's like this. And so, and to me, you know, pretend it's a city is such a great. look forward in a way. Everybody might think it was like look back in the way life was, but it's not actually that. It's a look forward. Fran is the one who's looking forward.

And that's the thing we need to be reminded of, you know? Yeah, it's, you know, one thing that has been said a lot about the millennial generation and especially of which I am a part. And the upcoming generation is there is a huge problem with self-esteem. or self-worth or not believing in one. There's no confidence, everyone. And there's certainly something to be said for like, you know, you, you, we're constantly inundated with like, well, the world's on fire.

You're never going to own a house. Blah, blah, blah. That can definitely sap your, you know, that can sap your confidence and your, you know, attractiveness to life. But I think, you know, like what Fran was saying about the wellness movement, we believe in exercise is incredibly important. but we don't this sounds so corny we don't exercise our mind not using the app and remember you know looking up and figuring it out is exercising the mind and that goes into the way you do

anything is the way you do everything and so i i feel like we can make better artists out of people who do pull their head and lord knows i'm a giant tech nerd so i'm i'm just as guilty as anyone but i've consciously tried to not be i try not to use the phone almost ever and Also, I have an Android, so no one wants to text to me anyway. But, yeah, I do think that's incredibly important when I was just interviewing someone, and she was saying how, as a professor, she teaches at NYU. Her name is Maria Rushi, blanked on her name for a second. And she was saying that the thing that digital cinematography has sort of taught her, her students have taught her, is that if they don't have to do something, they won't. So they don't necessarily have to learn proper exposure because they can just push a button in the ISO changes and now it's exposed.

So now contrast starts to go. I'm now editorializing. But contrast can start to become less important because now it's exposed. It's not lit. You know, all things like this where, again, the thesis of that thought is the way you do anything is the way you do everything. Yeah, it's true. I mean, it's kind of like if you and part of it is training too. you know it's i mean if you grow up not making your bed and throw your clothes on the floor

you know good luck when you get to college and then afterwards you know i mean i i i i have i think i think again and again my mother for drumming into me this training because because i know that i do certain things automatically like that it leaves my brain free for all the other stuff you know what i mean and sure you can throw everything on the floor But then it's, I don't know, it's about organizing your brain in a certain way and just, you know, having certain things organized so you're allowing space for other things. And I think that, you know, when I started in film, you didn't know what the Dalies were going to look like. I mean, you were hoping. I mean, even the best DPs that we'd laugh about it because they think, yeah, remember in the old film days, it's like you're trying something, you don't know what it's going to look like.

And you'd be sitting there for dailies after you shoot for the day, to the days before us dailies that night. And the entire crew would be there or all the keys. And you'd sit there and project dailies for two hours. And I'm telling you, as a D.P, you're trembling in your seat because you're like, oh, my God, did I expose that correctly? Did I screw that up? You know, I mean, there's this element of anticipation and of really trying to get it right.

And so, but there were times when things are, you know, not quite right, but they work. And really interesting, for me, I learned that very early on because I shot a film called Unzipped, right? And the director, Douglas, was a photographer and the subject, Isaac Mosradi, was his boyfriend. And so, you know, we were, I was running around with both of them and we were shooting models. and that kind of thing. And so, you know, there were moments where he would take a Super 8 camera and he would shoot Isaac, which was fine. I was like, look, the only rules that we have are that, you know, no color was all black and white, 16 millimeter black of white, until we get to the fashion show, right?

But we can have color, but we have to shoot Super 8. No video. I don't like forget about doing video. I think it was like hiate at the time, you know, and I was like, no video. But, I mean, video can have its own beautiful quality. But what ended up happening is that to Douglas took the film to Sundance, right, didn't tell me, and I didn't time the film, right? So I didn't do the final prints, right?

And you see your reaction. It's like, what? So I happened to be at Sundance that year. And I see on Zift, and I'm like, I'm going to go to the film so I go to the screening I'm like Douglas what the fuck you know

it's like you should have called me so I can time the film and he goes oh you know I didn't have time you know this is the first answer print and you know we can do it you know we can do it after Sunday like okay so I will see so I sit down and I watch the film

and I have to say you know sometimes the color gets a little magenta sometimes it's a little a little green, but it really gave it something interesting. Because remember, it was mostly black and white, right? But there were moments when it was funky, but the funkiness worked, right? So after the screening, I'm like, wow, you know, I hear I was really worried and I thought I just let it, I just, just accepted it as it was to see what it was like, right?

And I thought, I never would have done that if I was timing the film. you know, I would have done certain things, right? So, so afterwards he came to me and he says, okay, so, you know, let's talk so that we can, you know, set up the timing session for the second answer for it. And I was like, no, I said, don't touch it. I said, it's exactly the way it should be, don't touch it. And I actually had another situation like that

where I learned about how, you know, I learned from a mistake and used that mistake to help me. So my first union movie in New York was a movie with Andy Garcia, right? And I, uh, we had this hallway shot where Andy Garcia comes in the hallway, New York City apartment building, comes in the hallway, painted like glossy white. Thank you very much, right? Like a million cuts of paint. Comes around the corner.

So there's daylight coming in. He comes around the corner and he goes to the door, knocks on the door. there's fluorescent lights in the hallway and opens up the door Andy McDowell opens up the door right she's a love interest she opens up the door they have a conversation and then they goes in

right so I have them switch out the warm white fluorescent bulbs to daylight right daylight balance right so or they were supposed to put to get gels on them I don't remember this is way before Keene Flows. So like regular present, right? So I go away, I come back, we're ready to go. They apparently switched out the bulbs. I didn't notice, although I can see very much the difference

between warm white, cool white, daylight. I mean, you know, you have a sensitive. It's pretty obvious. Right. But I wasn't really seeing it. We're all film. I mean, this is an early film, right, 35 millimeter, all film. So I didn't catch it. We start the scene, we're shooting the scene and I'm, you know, worried about the move or whatever it is. And I don't notice until I see the dailies the next day with everybody else, right, that the fluorescent light over the doorway where they were standing and talking had not been switched out. So what color is it? Green, right? Sick. Now, this is all photochemical. So this is way before you can, a D.I. I mean, And D.I. wasn't even thought of that. It wasn't even a thought. So the idea that you could change it digitally didn't exist. You had to live with the green. And I had to time it. And you only have certain, you know, you can either, you know, take out the green, which affects the, which affects the exposure or deal with the red or deal with the, you know, the yellow. So, you know, you're dealing with three colors. Hello. You know.

So I had to time it in such a way that it was less apparent, right? And I was so upset. I was so upset because it was just, to me, it was like, you know, like, and I'm such a perfectionist, and for that to happen, it was just killers. So the next movie I did was the Mod Squad.

And I thought, you know what? I'm going to now take that green and I'm going to use it everywhere. So that's when I started using uncorrected fluorescent lights everywhere. I was using cool whites, warm whites. I mean, warm whites get really dirty, but the cool

whites have a really cool look. It was mixing light everywhere. I was using mixed light. That's how I started using mixed light. You know, people are really much light. Cool whites are about like 4,000 Kelvin? Yeah. They're more kind of

blue, you know, they got a blue there's like cyan, you know. Warm whites are kind of dirty green, yellow, right? So I like the cooler, crisper look of that. And so I started using them everywhere, right? And mixing light. Up to then, the only person who was really mixing light was Robbie Mueller.

He would mix light, right? And I loved his cinematography. So I was well aware of how he would use neon or fluorescence or that kind of thing. So I was like, I'm doing that because now I'm not going to let that beat me. I'm going to use the green creatively. artistically. So that's, that was my story of green. Well, it's interesting you say that because I'm actually, I'm a big, I wrote this down and my friend said, don't talk about this, but I'm glad you brought it up. I really like green. And everyone says, oh, it's ugly color. You need to time that

out. And I'm like, green is, I don't like a green shadow. I don't know why I love it so much, but I do. But green, a lot of us cinematographers love green. I like cyan green. I like cyan green. But look at all of the, you know, like commercials. We add so much green into it in the, and green softens the entire image. So, you know, that's the whole thing. It's like there's the Kodak way, the Kodak card, right? Right. And Fuji used to have a lot more cyan in it, right, in the shadow areas.

Fujifil, which I loved. So, you know, I love the green. I love the kind of feeling you're much more green than I am in this in this podcast right now, right? But I like that. And a lot of a lot of cinematographers like the green. You know, tagging the green out is much more of, I think of it as more Sony color or Kodak color in the old days of film emulsions, right? That they were time, you know, for me, Kodak was always much more in the red and blue. lose, right? Which I like the softer look of the Fuji, which is much more European. I love the

old European films like when father went away on business. You know, I always looked at that film and I was like, I love the way it looked. You know, there was Agfa film and Fuji film, and I was much more in tune with the European films. So when Eternal Sunshine came around, you know, by then Kodak had begun to change a lot of the film stocks, right? So they were, they were making them more contrasty, the print stock got more contrasty, and I like softer blacks. So when I did Eternal Sunshine, right, I shot on Kodak negative, so original negative Kodak. Was that like 93? Yeah, 93 and 98 because we were shooting a lot of night stuff and I was wide open on a

one three. He's a nice super speeds. AC, best friend. I had genius focus pullers. Carlos Cara and Stanley Fernandez. Right. They were the best focus pullers in New York. And, you know, I mean, you know, they little hands,

I mean, they could pull on a 180, you know, wide open, on a dolly going across the street. I mean, you know, really like stuff where you go, like, oh my God. I do have a note here that you had a great one on this project because Fran's very a lot of that. Yeah, no, but I was, yeah, I was self-focusing my camera. So when it goes out of all me. Never saw it, never happened once. I thought it going out of focus. I was like, because I would be too intent on listening to what Fran was saying, laughing with Marty, trying not to, you know, he wouldn't put my hands on the camera because I would move the camera,

because I would be laughing so much. And so I would miss sometimes when she would come forward because I wouldn't have my hands on the barrel anyway. So Eternal Sunshine. Yeah, so Eternal Sunshine. So I printed it on Fuji stock. And it was really wonderful stock. It was really rich in the colors.

And I loved all the cyan in the shadow areas. I just loved it so much. So we did some first answer prints. You know, we printed it in dailies, right? Because I needed to do some dailies references because at that point we were looking at some things digitally on, we were looking at it on HCSR wasn't invented by then. So I think it was on beta SP. So we looked at dailies on beta SP, but I did have prints made so I could see what it was going to look like on print. And then Peter Jackson was doing all these prints with Andrew, right, who I know, Andrew Lesney,

who was a good friend of mine, I had to call him up. And they were printing Lord of the Rings, and they didn't like the green in the Friji. So Peter Jackson got them to take the green out of that foam stock. Oh, no. And I was like, I couldn't believe it. I called up Andrew Leslie. I was like, Andrew, you know, what are you doing? That's my favorite film stuff.

So then I called up Beverly Woods, who was the genius over at Deluxe, right? He was doing all the DIs with everybody. Legend. Beverly Woods, she's an amazing, amazing person, super smart, started out as a Chemist at Kodak and then became the point person for all the top DPs in the world. You know, oftentimes, you know, it'd be like midnight and I'd see her sitting on a curb in the deluxe parking lot with Roger Deacons or then she'd be walking down the hall and she'd be with Chivo or she was with me, you know, at 1 o'clock in the morning looking at Prince

for Eternal Sunshine before the premiere, you know, and I'm like, it's not, we got to lighten it up one point, you know. She was like, okay. So, so anyway, so I asked her. I said, listen, I need you to take as much of the stock as you can from all over the world before it gets all used up and put it in a vault so that when I do all the prints for Eternal Sunshine, I can print it on that stuff. That's that those are the kind of negotiations that go on behind the scenes. Well, I'm glad you brought up all of that because obviously, one thing I noted about, um, pretend it's a city is the color. It, um, two things. The color, I know you shot, uh, Venice, right?

Was that on the whole thing or, yeah? Uh, yeah, primarily, you know, there are different, uh, there was another piece of, you know, the, the material was Spike and Fran, which we had shot five years ago. That, uh, that was before the Venice came out. So I think I, I shot down on the Alexa. So, you know, it's a combination. But all of the interviews with Fran and the Players Club and everything that's walking with her on the street that was with the Venice, with the Rialta, when we were on the streets. And I noticed that I really, I wanted to ask if this was in the D.I or I would assume this was on

the lens, but there's a beautiful diffusion, especially in the sit-down. And you just said it's the Players Club that they're, that like bar set, set, quote. Yeah, it's a real bar. Yeah. That was my friend Nick, who's the director I was talking about earlier, was sitting there and, you know, we're watching it. And he's going, I love this wide. Like there's a wide shot to her right, kind of, you know, shadow side. And you can see someone's at the bar and someone's bartending.

And Nick was just like, that's the best shot. Like, she's just enamored with that. But I wanted to know, like, what was that diffusion? What was that look you were going for? And I get a, I guess a further follow up is, which I assume you had had a hand. with the D.I. What look were you going for? Was this kind of like just an instinctual? This is how I want it to look or were you attempting to replicate a certain film stock or look or did Marty have a hand in what went in there? Was he going for something specific? Well, I knew that,

I mean, I wanted to make it a painterly image. Yes. Yes. So that was my intention to go, you know, and I mean, a reference would be, you know, Rembrandt, you know, and Velasquez, you know, I mean, really, I love them for so many years. And to me, you know, I just, I had done something like that with Bob Dylan, actually, where Bob had asked me if I would come in and relight his appearance on Saturday Night Live. not time in Night Live on the Letterman show. Interesting. It was the second to last Letterman show ever of the original one. And he was, you know, and he asked me to come in and relight it, you know, and do it with one camera.

And I thought, okay, let me see how that's going to go. Because, you know, those guys who have been lighting the Letterman show, I've been doing it for 35 years. So, you know, it's like kind of coming out and saying, hi, do you mind if I relight this? I know this is your second to last day on this show, but, you know, so that's what I did. And I turned off, I think, all of the lights except for five and just made it look like I wanted it to be painterly. So, you know, so I was making contrast and putting in warmer lights.

And Bob said, he goes, oh, I got, it looks like a Rembrandt. And I was like, I was like, yeah, that's the point, you know. So here I was being a copycat again and wanting Fran. to have that, that, that kind of elegance. I wanted it to feel elegant and like it was a painting and that, you know, she's, she's a living painting. She's a living legend, you know, and so is Marty. And it's like, so let's create a cinematic environment

that feels, you know, like this is a portrait of an artist, a true artist like Fran. And she is. You know, she's, she's really a visionary person. And she sees the world the way it is and she says it the way the world is. You know what I mean? She doesn't, she just says the way it is. And, and I love that about her. Yeah, I feel like her, like, you know, a lot of people have excused their assholery by saying, I just say how it is. And I would not put Fran in that category. Like, I feel like her, um, sort of frustrations come from a place of. love like you like i personally don't pick on things unless i want them to be better if i didn't care i wouldn't even it wouldn't even bother me you know like whatever someone somewhere did something stupid it's like well they don't affect me i don't but if i'm around it you know if i was using the subway every day i would be you know upset about it but i'm staying there what was her line she was saying you know i can't remember the specific line but she was saying she she stayed in l a

or in new york for a reason yeah well you know she is about people being civil to each other. People, like she said, pretend it's a city. You're not all by yourself, you know? And that being a really good point about our lives. You know, we don't live in isolation or, you know, go live in a cabin. You can do whatever you want.

But, you know, it's kind of like look around you and remember you're a human being and there are other people around. And though, even though, I mean, Fran is hilarious And when we did, Marty had asked me to do public speaking many years ago. And, you know, again, I laughed all the way through it. I mean, it was ridiculous. I mean, the camera there, you can see it, check.

I was like, are we going to have to stabilize this? And, you know, and Fran would say things like, she likes to smoke. That's Fran's prerogative, walking along the street and somebody stops her and says, you know, you should be ashamed of yourself and she's like excuse me what you're talking about you should be ashamed of yourself you shouldn't be smoking on the street

and she's like well why not you know you're being a bad role model and you basically is like who made me a role model in fact I'm having dinner with her and then produce her tonight so oh excellent

yeah that's another thing we were saying was like she would probably be great to have it at dinner and then maybe give her like a few weeks and then come back. Going back to the idea of the look, what was your sort of getting into the nuts and bolt to be shot on the Venice? What was your lens filtration and lighting set up specifically for the players club? Because I was just enamored with that set up specifically, but in general. Well, I used for the lighting.

I was using celebs. I love celebs. I just, I love those lights. I just, you know, I'm constantly going on set because the lighting onset has changed so much. And because I'm directing primarily now, you know, I forget what the name of the lights are. I didn't ever learn them because everything is changing so fast.

I'm like, you know those lights that are, you know, and they're like celebs, I'm like, yes, bringing the celebs. Because to me, they were the closest to tungsten. You know, they had the softness of tungsten. always have hated electronic lights because for me they always, I could feel that it's degenerated and it always felt sharp. But the celebs always had around us. I mean, now the lights are incredible. I mean, you're looking at, you know, the sky panels that we use the sky panels outside, you know, and we put gels on them. I really wanted warm gels to come in to warm it up

as they're coming through. Plus, we use them park hands, which are the old standby. and then I used one of those round lights that was in the place. We bought another one in case we were going to see it in shot. That was above the table that would give me a little bit of fill light. Just like a traditional bulb in a like a china ball kind of thing? It was in a glass globe. Okay. And those were the lights that were there.

So we put that over the table. But I wanted it to be intimate. you know I wanted to feel like we were with with Fran we had three cameras one was between Marty and Ted Griffith which was my camera then there was another one just over the other side of Marty and then there was that side shot and so all of them were on sliders and you know and you know I basically briefed the other operators about what I was looking for and you know listen to what she's saying and when do you

go wider when you go tighter and then I would have monitors so I could see what they were doing so I could actually say to them or motion to them you know go in and that kind of thing so I still have a modicum of control even while I'm behind the camera so so that's what we did there and lens wise um I'm pretty sure that we were in the Fujianans and great yeah they're really beautiful lenses and they could work well with the, and they had the range, 19 to 90, had the range that I was looking for, you know, just to get in enough.

I mean, the 24 to 290s are often really great because now Fujina, they have a much more wider range of lenses. Now even in a larger format, but, you know, it's like being able to get in if you want. And I knew I didn't want to get too close on Fran, you know. I mean, just thinking that, first of all, it would feel way too TV if I was in too close. But, you know, you have to be, you have to really think about that

and look about who the person is, how close you can get, and that kind of thing. And I use the difference between intimate and invasive. Yeah, exactly. And also because, you know, for me too, as I'm getting older, you know, it's like I'm looking at myself on the Zoom going like, okay, I'm just going to sit like this. Zoom is nature's diffusion filter. Terrible, right?

You know, so it's like, okay, what am I going to do? You know, we do care what we look like, you know. I mean, unless you're playing a character that, you know, really wants to show that, like Kate in Mayor of Easttown, you know, she really had to fight to have all of the publicity posters and everything not be airbrushed. She wanted that was mayor. She wanted to see, you know, a little bit of stomach.

gut here, you know what I mean? That was important to the character. But for me right now, no. So I was thinking, like, I should put some gaffers tape here, you know. But anyway, you know, you know, it's like thinking about things like that is like, where does the light go? How can I bring it across? Also, Fran has glasses. So it's like, how do I keep the glasses clean so that we don't see lights dancing around on them? And that's tricky, you know. It's a fine balancing act. But I did know that I wanted to bring the strong lights in and I wanted to have contrast and let the guys be more or less silhouette at the bar, but lighted the bar separately. And then I used a very light plorescence on the filter. Yeah. So that gives it that

kind of, they're really interesting filters. You know, they give it a bit kind of a glow to it. Yeah. The main reason I was kind of singularly focused on the filter. was just because, you know, everyone in their mom uses a black promis now. And I think I used to be that guy. And now the more I've looked at it, I'm like, it's too, it's too much, even like a 1-8 that's still very washy. And so I was looking at like pearl essence, black satins and glimmer glasses. And I've just kind of been like, those have just been bouncing around in my head for like a few weeks now. Well, you know, for years people would use when the promise came out. They would use premise and I never, ever, ever use promise, ever.

And the reason why was because they take away the appearance of sharpness. And I would always use, uh, ultracons because ultracons preserve the appearance of sharpness, but they give a little tiny bit of halation to the highlights, but it preserves the appearance of sharpness. The, the promise had just, it was just fuzzy. It's like fuzzy. you know and I never liked that it wasn't I've always liked soft directional light so rather than using a silk which just makes the light go everywhere and it's sort of it doesn't have any sensibility it's just like a cloud there I always like using um what's it called um it's the name of the diffusion um gridcloth so you know like light grid to me was great because it made it soft but you can still feel the direction of it you know and it's the same thing when you're bouncing like muz or you need if you want to go directionally through muz you can make it feel directional but you have to put a really big light behind it you know

right yeah that's something that um like kind of circling back to the sort of film versus digital thing um i kind of ask this of every db who has shot a handful of features on on film and that is How has digital changed the way that you light? Because obviously, a quick answer is like, well, you can just use less, you can use less of them. You don't need to, because the sensitivity is so high, you can potentially light with one or two lights versus having to go back there and put one at every place. But for you, how is your approach changed all or has it? Well, my approach for many, many years is always how can I augment the light, you know, because I take a more. naturalistic kind of approach to it.

I like natural light when it's in the right spot. So it was always about how I could augment it. So for me, the digital world in nighttime made a huge difference because then you can actually see really deep into your shadow areas and then you can control it. You know, before you're just trying to get an exposure so that it wouldn't get grainy in the shadows, you know, which was the challenge.

or if you were doing anamorphic, you know, where you're at a four or five, six. Because in the old anamorphic lenses, you know, the most wide open it would go to be four or five, six, you know. So if you're out of four, you'd get a lot of aberration, but out of five, six, you know, to clean it up a little bit. But you need a lot of light at night. And so for me, I like being able to see more where I can control it. But, you know, so much of the digital, for me, is about taking light away than adding light. You know, it's like how to create negative fill so that you can create contrast. Because for me, the digital world was always like, the more it looked like video is,

the more that it was just splat lighting. It just felt like overlit. And also talking about the feeling thing, for me, video, at least early video and digital, was all about, you know, the background would come forward. So you can't, you didn't have that, you know, depth of field, the ability to shift the depth of field. And it's sort of like we're experiencing that here as a classic example looking at this podcast where you've obviously have a still camera that you've set up in between or a movie camera set up in between your computer and, you know, and the image. I mean, you're going through an ACMI, right, from a camera. I'm going through my computer since this, you know, I didn't have time to prep this.

This is pre-set up for every interview. So, yeah, I didn't have to rush to get here. Right. So here I am, you know, I'm just, this is my computer camera, which of course we know is wide angle as, you know, I'm sure it's like an 11 or 16, you know, if not more. So I don't have too much control of that unless I put a filter over it, which I've thought about doing actually but I don't think it will change the depth of feel actually I don't think that these these lenses in here are able to do that no I and I think that I mean how small is that

sensor I mean even an iPhone has like a half inch sensor now and I think webcans are like one eighth like they're just minuscule yeah so yeah for anyone listening the the it's a C500 full frame sensor with a Nikor 35 millimeter like photography lens on it the old you know AIS and then I do have a little teleprompter and the teleprompter gives me a little bit of diffusion which sometimes I'm noticing now like if it gets a little too bright back there it'll just wash the gets very flat but what can you do so you guys decide who looks better yeah um actually going even further back I had a note here that I did want to, that was brought to mind, and they're kind of, I guess, tangentially related.

One of them was Duke Ellington and someone was talking, and he was talking about conservatory jazz musicians versus, I guess, just doing the work, figuring it out, you know, feet going with feeling. And I was wondering if you had it sort of an opinion. I felt the analogy with film now, where from, it feels like from like the obviously the beginning of film up until somewhere around the 90s it all felt very experimental and then now it's very much like kind of what I was saying at the beginning of there is a correct answer like I feel like film school has not helped foster creativity or film education it's helped foster sameness yeah and that conservatory versus doing the work thing kind of struck me as being analogous in some way well you know Yes, and I think that's always been true. I mean, when you think about art school,

and you think about all the artists have come down to the ages, you know, in their painting schools and going in the school of whatever, you know, the school, you know, Vermeer and all of those guys, you know, and then the people who depart from that, you know, Picasso and all the people who then start doing something different, you know, exploring it in a different way.

And the same thing with music. musicians, you know, classically trained musicians who then, you know, they don't depart, or other musicians who do, you know, look at the lonious monk. I mean, you know, he created his own roles and his own thing.

And it's hard to do, you know, to, you can be someone who masters the craft, you know, really well. You can be a master piano player. But if you don't have your, if you're not feeling in it and you have your own interpretation in your own point of view, then it just becomes an exercise of craft, you know, how fast can you move your fingers and, you know what I mean?

So I think every person has to decide, you know, how they want to step out of the rules. And, you know, I've never been, I was talking to Darren about this too. It's like I've never, we live in New York in a way. We said, well, we never moved to L.A. because there's a certain kind of spirit in New York, which is, you know, it's not confining to the rules. There's something that's, you know, there's a free spirit in New York that we both feel

and it inspires us. It inspires us to be bold and daring where you normally be. Like when I did personal velocity, I mean, me going into the digital world, it was like the first time that I, the second time actually because the first time being bamboozled which was these amateur cameras

where the lenses are shit you know I mean they didn't resolve well at all Spike likes to do wide angle shots and they can't resolve the lenses look totally out of focus because the lenses couldn't resolve I mean we're talking they're not even digital I mean we're talking tape right so it's like how do you

maneuver that how do you manipulate that, you know, the, the office set was on the north side of the office building in Manhattan that looked out on the sunside. I was dying, you know. So then when I got to personal velocity, for me, I was like, okay, I'm just going to accept this medium. I didn't want to do it. I wanted to shoot, you know, it was film, couldn't do it. You know, that wasn't part of the, the approach with those cameras. So I just thought, all right, I'm going to decide on my own rules. So instead of shooting it at a 60th or 50th because we were shooting in Pell

so not a 50th of the shutter speed, I shot it at 125th. And the guys, when we did the test to do the film out, you know, which film out was just a beginning at that point, you know, so it was a, you know, a baby industry. And they were saying, oh, no, but you can't do that, you know. And I said, why not? And they said, well, because you're going to have you're going to lose half a field. And I said, how much is half a field of interlaced?

Yeah. Like half of actual field. Okay, got it. I was like, nothing. How much is that going to change that? But the way it feels to me is more filmic at 125th. It feels more like cinema, less like video. I'm doing it at 125th.

I don't care. So they're like, all right, we'll see when we get to the film out, you know? So, and then I would choose. trick the sensor, I mean, I didn't even know the sensor. The sensor is probably the size of a pin edge at that point, you know, to the white balance. You know, I would trick the white balance and then put film filters on it and just over, you know, so I was doing all this stuff because I was like, just trying to like get it to do something and be interesting.

And then I didn't put the attachments on to do the, you know, the anamorphics. You have the full frame. I didn't shoot it full frame. because I was like, I already have to think about, you know, I'm not going to be thinking about the, you know, cutting off the frame. Besides, if somebody gets a hold of it, I don't want them to think that they can use the full frame for the 133 version that you had to do in those days, right?

And then I was like, I'm not going to look at the focus on this viewfinder, the flip-out viewfinder. I said, I have to have a monitor next to me at all time. And I operated the whole film like this. looking at the monitor because I have to self-focus you know there's no markings on me you can't have a

so I did all of that because I was like all right I got to find some way that I can deal with this camera and so then you know when the film came out you know when the best cinematography

at Sundance it was the first digital film there you know and everybody was like oh my God you know looks so beautiful how did you do that and I physically said

because I didn't listen to anybody so you have to follow your intuition you know and that goes back to what we said about the feeling it has to be about the feeling yeah that was uh yeah and i think too like another line that that fran had said is like the uh was it grand central station's beautiful because one person built it and it wasn't you know like the the rest of that sentence uh if i were to elaborate using my own words is like it wasn't built by committee and i think it's that that very very very vision that I think is incredibly important. And you have to make decisions.

I mean, that's the thing about being a director or being the DP. You have to make decisions about what it is. And that's part of that, you know, decision making. You know, it's, you know, I want this. I don't want that. I don't know what I want, but I know, you know, it's like all of those kind of decisions that get made. Yeah.

And Grand Central was great until they put up all those advertisements for so many years. it was a by the way very cool that they let you that light switch can't be the actual light switch I'll let you figure that oh you bloody woman but it was very it was a great shot I love that so

see France magical you never know I mean now I think everybody's got to walk around New York City go to all the spots that we went to you know and and check it out see if you can find you and I just had an interview with David Attenborough's DP Gavin Thurston and you and him seem to have a similar you know you need to break the rules you can't you have to do your own thing and so one question I had for him that I'm going to post to you is working with someone like David Attenborough or working with someone like Martin Scorsese is something that I think many people would envy or whatever but something I've always kind of wondered is what is something that Marty has taught you that you've carried through into your either personal life or work,

something that he's potentially modeled, that you're like, that's, I'm doing that. You know, Marty has, from the past, and I've known Marty since I kind of came into the family. I was invited by Emma Tillinger to work on something with Marty years ago. And I know Emma, Emma Tillinger, Kostoff, I know her from the movie Blow when I was a DP on the movie Blow.

I always say, we did blow together. And people who look at me like, what? But the thing about Marty is that, you know, Marty is interested in telling stories that have meaning and working with him. I know that it's important, too, that the reason why you do certain things, the reason why you take certain shots

is because they mean something. you know so it's just not arbitrary you know that he it's about telling the story that collectively has a certain you know message or a story or you know certain experience and so I see him again again you know he also goes and listens to that inner voice about you know what's important and somebody a sound person was telling me that I worked with a couple about last month he says oh yeah, I worked for Marty many years ago and I had to do this pickup shot with him and it was for sound, right?

So they had to do this sound recording. He said I was scared, shitless, Martin Scorsese and I go in there and I tried to set up, you know, what we were doing as much as possible and, you know, to get the cleanest sound. And Marty was like, I don't want the cleanest sound. I wanted to feel like this.

and, you know, I don't know what it was if they were scratching the dirt or whatever they were doing. It was like, you know, it was completely not what you would expect from a perfect sound recording. But he was doing it for a reason because that's the way it sounded.

There was as a realness to it, and he wanted to get to the realness of it. So now, you know, he's doing Killers of the Flower Moon, which he's filming right now in Oklahoma, which was based on the story that happened in the 20, 1920s, and he has a hand-crank camera, Bell and Howell that was given to him as a gift.

And we used part of that Bell and Howe on some of pretends it's a city for some of the background, and now he wants to use it again because the cameras at the time were hand-cranked cameras. So he wants to incorporate that in part of the story. So, you know, he's someone who's, he's, like an encyclopedia. He knows more knowledge about films and can cite them off the top of his head than anybody I know. You know, he's, he's always thinking about, you know, cinema and

references and that kind of thing. And it's really, it's such a pleasure to be around him and to talk with him and to see how he's reacting to certain things, what his reactions are. And so much is about, you know, shaping it for that meaning. Is there, that brings up, this is a silly question, but, and I know we're coming up on time, I don't want to hold you all day, although I could talk to you for fucking hours. I'm loving this. Is there a movie that Scorsese doesn't like? It seems like any movie you name, he's just like, let me tell you about all the fantastic

things about this film. Did he talk about the marbles, TV shows? No. No, I don't know. you'd have to ask Marty himself, you know? Yeah, sure. I was, yeah. I was just, I just watched the criterion of the Red Shoes.

And of course, he's got like a whole featurette on it about it. And, uh, and I just watched that. And I was like, this is, this is, I, I, just watching that little bit, uh, made me want to be a little bit more like that in the sense of, um, not necessarily encyclopedic knowledge, but just that love of cinema and the like really digging into it. Because I came from like, I love growing up. I had the same like one theater type thing in my hometown. But it was always like the sci-fi movies and the kind of more fun,

blockbustery type things that I was always into. And that wasn't, while it was still true cinema for me, the experience was true cinema. I never got into filmmaking, so to speak. And then even throughout college, it wasn't, you know,

there was a bit my joke earlier was, if it was on criteria and I didn't see it. You know, I didn't see the real. Like, I left film school not having seen Citizen Kane. And at a while, more of that as like a badge of pride. I was like, hey, didn't even make me do it. But they did make us watch do the right thing about a hundred times. That's so funny.

Well, you know, I mean, a criterion is amazing. And thank God for them. You know, they actually preserved a lot of film. They, we preserve, they, you know, have an archive of Spike's work now. And we went through a lot of trouble to go back to the. the original materials for bamboozled because we had to do one of the first film out ever in the world was bamboozled so but that was so we could project it because it was all digital so i said to them let's go back to the original elements and and retransfer it so they

did that you know and they spent the time and the energy and the money to do it because they believe in that and the same thing with marty you know he believes in that he's very active he has a film foundation which is all about preservation. And my mom is a huge movie buff. You know, she watches movies all the time. She can tell you who the third grip is on movies. And she loves westerns and she's 90 now, still very sharp. You know, she watches one Western after the other.

That's when I catch up on the Western. And she used to be a huge fan of TCM. And Marty used to take the time to write little synopsis for TCM and they had a booklet and she said to me she goes tell Marty I'm really upset that they stopped that booklet you know I always enjoyed my mother right right and I was like Marty you have a fan of my mother

she's 90 so that's always worse when your mom like not that I've experienced anything truly like that but there has been you know you moved to LA and your mom's like have you met this person because I would like to have a word with them and you're like no I don't they don't just walk around my house. No, I have not. Well, my mother has a whole relationship with Spike.

Oh, good. Because my mother, my parents lived in San Antonio for 30 years, and she was a huge Spurs fan. So I would always have this thing going on between the Spurs. And my mom knew all the Knicks. And, you know, I mean, she's, she's very funny. You know, she's like, tell Spike, you know, when are you talking to Spike?

Tell him. And then she would say, tell Spike not to have so much bad language in his films. that's fantastic um anyway i i uh will definitely have to part to a conversation at some point next time you're free because i'm loving this but uh i will let you go here i but i do end every podcast with a question and that is what um sort of one either whether it be uh object or a life change or a resource um can you point to that maybe not most appreciably changed your career as a cinematographer or as a filmmaker, but one that just really comes to mind first.

Yeah, that's a really good question. I mean, so many things. There's so many things that are little changes. Well, I mean, when I was doing my first film, my first documentary, I landed in Cambodia. We were the first film crew. in Cambodia's after Pol Pot. And I had convinced a good friend of mine to do her thesis film in Cambodia

because I knew she could get in. And so it ended up coming around that I ended up going as a cinematographer. Because I recommended somebody, the guy that I was working under for a while. He ended up not being able to go. And so I convinced her to go, even though I had to find a camera and all of his stuff.

And so this is the first day land, the second day, we get taken to the killing fields, the real killing field. And the Vietnamese had put up a makeshift shrine that was just a, you know, a bamboo structure that had all of the skulls. And, you know, a lot of the skulls had still the bands around them with the bullet holes in them. And, you know, it was very fresh. I mean, the killing fields was still their bones and pieces of clothing around all around us and everything. And so, you know, I was a novice, you know, I mean, I got out and I just, you know, I set up the camera shaking and I take out my light meter and I'm thinking like, oh my God, I don't know

if I really know how to read this thing. And I was like, please God, just don't let me fuck this off. So prayer. Yeah, it's a prayer. Well, that's what's a good thing about digital now. It's like, now you just see what you get. You know, you don't have to pray to God anymore, right? Yeah, that was actually earlier when you were saying, like, how nerve-wracking

Daly's were. That's what I've heard most cinematographers say is like, well, now I get to sleep at night. That's fun. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So there you go. So that's sort of like, I was like, I better learn how to read this thing. Well, thank you so much for your time. I really, really appreciate it.

Like I said, I hope I can have you back on at some point just to continue because these are the type of conversations that I started this podcast for. So, yeah, thank you so much. Thank you. All right, take care. All right, I can. Bye. Frame and reference is an Owlbot production.

It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. Our theme song is written and performed by Mark Pelly, and the F at ArtMapbox logo was designed by Nate Truax of Trax branding company. You can read or watch the podcast you've just heard by going to provideocoolition.com or YouTube.com slash owlbot prospectively. And as always, thanks for listening.