Frame & Reference Podcast - 226: "Hamnet" Cinematographer Łukasz Żal

Episode Date: January 22, 2026

This week on Frame & Reference I'm joined by Lukasz Zal, cinematographer of such films as Zone of Interest, I'm Thinking of Ending Things, Ida, Cold War, and most recently, Hamnet. We go deep on this one, you're going to love it!Enjoy!► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠F&R Online ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Support F&R⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Watch on YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Produced by Kenny McMillan► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Hello and welcome to this episode 226 frame and reference. You're about to drop into a conversation between me, Kenny Macmillan, and my guest, Lucas Zal, DP of Handit. Enjoy. I actually did see a quote from you that kind of on that topic about like finding yourself in the stories you pick. Have you been able to like finding a part of yourself in the story? Have you been able to do that your whole career? Like just only kind of pick stuff that emotionally speaks to you or how? Have there been a lot of paycheck gigs that we haven't seen?

No, mostly, yeah, it was always mostly like that. I always picking films, which I really did connect with emotionally. And for me, everything's a bit like a journey. I, you know, I discovered this at school when I was working with my friend, director, and he forced me to shoot his film and I was not sure about this script I didn't feel that and then he

convinced me and I did that and after all he said oh Lukash now I understand you need to really do only thing which you'll understand and fear you'll fuck up this so much and then I realized that

you know I have to do that because, you know, my career was very, I mean, weird is not a good word, but it's very special. And I, you know, but I also shoot commercials. So, you know, I also shoot some, so of course I shoot some commercials. So I shoot one, only one simple year. That's my rule. I know that that's a really kind of amount that I can do it properly. and I can find something hoping,

you know, to find something different, you know, to really be completely engaged, completely committed. And so that's my approach. I shoot some commercials, try not to work too much,

not to shoot too much. And then, you know, have some free time, have some time to, I don't know, watch, reads,

you know, walk, being bored, you know, just, you know, spent time with my family and with myself

and sometimes, you know, so that is why I realize that I can shoot some commercials, but not too many, just to get some, you know, to, I like that, you know, and it gives money, but also I will enjoy that if it's not too much. And then I should film and always, for me, a film is like a half a year, always, always. It's like, I can see them this always like a half year, seven months

sometimes even more. And always I pick, I decided to shoot a film always when I feel that I could really find something personal that this topic is for me important. It's really

actual. It's really kind of a personal and I can find something I always need to be kind of, you know, I think I always need to be excited. I need to be a bit of scared in a way. Like I like things which I don't know how to do that, you know. And I don't like to repeat myself. It's like a bit like, you know, Jonathan Glazer, he said,

I remember I had a source compensation with him and he said, I don't, I'm not interested in things which, which, were there I'm interested in things which nobody did before and I think I think I'm not like that I'm not so

you know I'm not so maybe as like Joe but yeah I think it must be really always something which

because it's such so much work it's so much hard it's so much effort it's so much stress it's so much energy. I mean, you cannot spend this for something which can give you only money or just

work, you know? I mean, for me, it doesn't work like that. I cannot do that, you know. I have, I, I, I, I, I tried a few times. I did a temp. I was in the conversation and then I realized, no, I cannot do that. I mean, I, I, I start to read the script and I'm in fucking wrong. No, I mean, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I will not do it well because I don't understand. I don't feel that. I don't care about that.

I don't give a shit about this story because it's, I don't know, nothing new, nothing special, nothing really, I mean, no. Well, being emotionally invested in something or at least something that gives you some form of excitement, can help you push through, you know, exhaustion and a long day, you know, whatever. But if you're not emotionally invested and whatever you're looking at doesn't

creatively excite you, it'll drain you so much faster. Every day waking up and going like, oh, I'm interested to keep doing this. Like, that'll plus up your work by 10, 20%, you know. 30, 50% if you wake up and you go, fuck, we're doing this again. It's like it'll tear you up in a way that I think even just long days doesn't or it can. Yeah. Yeah, because I think when you are, you know, for me, time when I'm on set, time doesn't exist. In a way, like it's like a kind of, you know, human now.

It's so much like meditation. It's such a presence because you are so involved and you create something and you build this and you are discovering something and you are in process and then something is terrible, looks like shit, then it starts to look amazing. But sometimes it looks like a catastrophe and then you think, oh my God, we will not succeed today. Oh my God, that will be disaster. And then at a certain point, everything changes. And this is amazing.

But this is also so exhausting. But I think, yeah, exactly what you said, if you are doing something and you don't like it and you don't feel it and you just do it as a job just for money. Oh my God. I mean, I cannot do that. You know, I try them. You know, I work.

I had a period of my life where I was working in a sitcom. As a camera operator, I was also doing some kind of very, very kind of like a corporate film, some cheap commercials, very stupid ones, very stupid, very stupid, you know, extremely stupid. Oh my God. And this really led me to the point where I almost decided to change a profession. I just gave I was at the point that I had a situation

that started a virus but that's why I said it's a bit special and weird what happened to me but you know I had a period in my life

and I started just to earn money I bought a camera you know from some with some European Union support you know

I launched a company and then I was just making money and doing a lot of stupid really stupid and empty things and

when I was so empty, I just decided for this money I earned, I decided to buy my dream car, at that point. At that point, to kind of, you know, give myself a bit of, I don't know, happiness. Try to feel something. Yeah. Buy some happiness, you know, which is impossible. And going to buy this car, I had a terrible car accident,

and I lost, I brought two. I, I, I, and I know it's maybe I would try to make this story short, but no, just before I had this accident, my friend asked him to shoot his, like a half an hour independent movie. And I said to him, no, I cannot do that because I need to earn money. And I had this accident. and my first job after the X-Nand and after the time, you know, I just got well, which took me almost a year. My first job where I was not walking properly still, I was camera operator, I was filming my friend on a festival accepting a word for a cinematography,

for a film, I didn't want to shoot. Yeah. And I was like a TV camera operator, like a, you know, And this, it was such a pain, you know. And then I realized, okay, maybe that's not the way. So I started to make documentaries. And I was making documentaries. I didn't have money at all because, you know, I was shooting med days, but there was no money.

But I was kind of at least doing something meaningful, but I had no money. and I was really close to just and I had a small kid you know I didn't have my father my parents were helping me and then in the certain point I was so yeah I was so

kind of maybe not depressed but I was just so sad that that it's not I dreamed to be and then I said to myself okay I'm giving myself two years since it's not going to change I'm going to do something different.

And then I was camera operator. I was supposed to be camera operator and my DP was sick. And I replaced it and I became a DP on this film. And then everything changed. So and then I, but I realized one thing that, I mean, I think that's the most important always when you just, because if you do something, I don't know,

meaningful, important, discover something. If you do art, I think it's just I mean, for me it's only well, you know, only way to read the stories in which I feel I can add something with my cinematography

because it's just a pure joy like a hamlet, like zone of interest, like films with Pavlpavanski, Magnus von Hoarek, Charlie Kaufman. But those films, it was always a journey. It's everything. It's like a different journey.

It's a different, it's like chapter in my life where I, I don't know, explore this. I explore this, this, this, this topic, I don't know, I explore love. I explore, you know, just different, weird things which are happening with human drains, with Charlotte Kaufman, you know, with Magdoz's horror, like violence. and put Pazel, like you know, in Ida, who was John, you know, Zonov of Interest,

but was, well, so fedy and amazing, beautiful, but also really tough journey. But other films, I think it's, it's always beautiful, but it's always very hard as well. I think it's, it's very, yeah, for me, going. To make a same, it's like, be going. I mean, I don't know. I don't know how, I don't say that because I've never been on the war and I don't want to go.

But, but personally for me, you know, I really pack my stuff. I really put my, my stuff, my stuff, my stuff, my stuff, and I can really just gather all those things in two suitcases and two backtacks. And I'm just going somewhere. and I'm living there for a half a year. And it's always very special. Like you come to different cities, to different to apartment, to start your life there.

And it's always a journey, you know. And you are lonely sometimes. You know, you sometimes you are not sure. You don't know if you're doing this properly. You have a doubt. You know, then you're happy. Then you succeed. And then when you come back.

And so, But it's always like a very not easy. Well, it's kind of like going, like being in a rock band and going on tour, except you don't really... Well, you may go a different place, but... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. But it is a bit like, you know, like, I think... I mean, Jean was always saying that later, but that's being a teammaker, it's a bit like... Filming is a bit like a series, it's a combination of circus.

and military. And I think it really is, you know. It's like a bit like military circles because there's a hierarchy, there is, you know, there is like a kind of where really, like, it's so fun and sometimes to look at a film makers like they're doing something, you know,

and you're looking at this from the side, and, you know, and something's so funny because they behave like they were saving, you know, a work or at least somebody, you know, and, but if I, I'm doing exactly the same. And then, and life is simple.

You know, everything is simple. Everything becomes so simple when you're making a film, then when then come back to life, it becomes not so simple. You know, you just reminded me of a couple things. When I, I'm a DP as well. I don't know if every says, but when I was finally starting to work on larger productions

where I was, I mostly do documentary now, but you still end up having like a small crew, you know, wanted one, gaff or electric, whatever. And I ended up reading a lot of self-help books from three guys because that we're all talking about leadership because it was the one quality I knew I didn't have.

You know, another quote I remember reading was some kind of ancient writer, where it was basically like it's one thing to study war. It's another thing to live the warrior's life. And coming in. out of film school, I think you've studied a lot of war. You know, you're just like, oh, you know, the director does this and lighting does this. And then you get on set and you're like, none of this, I was not prepared for any of this. And so that living of the warrior's life is such a,

is a thing you can't each. You have to live it. Yeah. And it's such a interesting thing. And again, I, you know, I was reading all these books. And that military hierarchy does exist on film sets and learning about how to solve problems into something like that in a situation like that, I found incredibly valuable. But like you, every, the circus part of it does take up more. The circus part is hung on the on the frame of the military. You know, it does, it does take up a larger chunk. Of course.

Totally. Of course. So, yeah. Yeah, but that's true. You know, it's in to, yeah, you need to just. leave it and you need to really just learn this

but you can really learn when you're just just making films and every film and how to speak with people how to be a leader what works or not but you know

but I think at the end I think works only one thing that if you are a good person and you're good human being and you are surrounded by Githfielman being

Pavel Politkovsky, he just taught me one important thing at the beginning. He just said, you know, it's like sometimes on sad, there are people who don't want things to be well. Do I pronounce it properly? They just, they sometimes, you know, they, and it's so important just you don't have those kind of people surrounding you, that you have good people. a conflict. Yeah, yeah, exactly. The people who are looking for solving problems and they just want to

make and complete things. And I think that's the most important to just be surrounded by good people. And that's always the most important rule that be with just good people. And because I think it's not only important, you know, the talent is important. And I mean, there's a lot of things which are very But I think the one of the most important people, the thing, is that you are with a good people. And you can be also, because you spend so much time in those people and with their energy. And if you have fun, if everything just go smoothly and if you understand each other, sometimes you don't have to understand. And sometimes you don't understand each other, you understand each other without words. we even sometimes create our own language.

We are laughing. We are sometimes, you know, I don't know, angry, but then we are laughing. And then I think it's so important that you are, we are like a very well working machine team. And we respect each other. And yeah, and we just want to work. We want to make a great film. And I think that's the most important thing. that you work only with this kind of people

and then so much easier and then things are just happening I mean good things are just happening in itself I mean you remind me of something you had said in a different interview about wanting to kind of blending you and

David Lynch but you know just especially in pre-production just dream and come up with not be so rigid about like I think this was in relation to the Charlie Coppin film feeling like you were just kind of getting through the ringer time wise you know having to put a bunch of work into a short amount of time and to your point about finding good people I think it's also finding people that work the same way you do because you like I've got friends that I love to death that I would

never want to work with I just know we don't solve problems the same way we don't think about the project the same way, even though I love, you know, they're my family, but it's like, you know, you don't always want to work with your family. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Find that easy? Do you find it easy to find people? Because, like, all the films you have made have been pretty stellar.

So, maybe it's not difficult for you to find it, but are these, like, unique circumstances where you find these people, or are you kind of like, you have your pick and you're like, that's what we're going to do this year? You know, I try to work with, with my team. I was lucky that like, you know, the previous film,

as all of interest, we did with the same thing, almost. I mean, sometimes people, you know, some people can be,

you know, Chinese because somebody is busy or, you know, it depends, but mostly we are trying to work with the same team for a few years. We're working with the same team.

We know each other. You know, we are not perfect. We know that's everybody. has, you know, advantages and disadvantages, but we know who, like, we know who we are. And I think it's so important.

But when I work abroad, for me, it's the most important, really, moment to start conversations when I'm looking for people or interviewing people or meeting people. For me, it's like, that's the most important moment. Like, that's the first thing I'm doing.

Start to looking for people. Like, you know, I was shooting film with Charlie. government like United States or I was shooting film in Russia or yeah I mean every film if I'm going to work with somebody who I didn't know before I always try to have you know I always this I mean the conversation it's so important to me it's like it's a be to be or not to be. I know that, you know, if I made a wrong decision, there will be disaster.

And, you know, I, and I have to tell you that I, I mostly succeed, you know. I think I, I think I had, yeah. Yeah, but I mean, succeed really pick, pick great people. I work with great people. And I think I can see people. It's like, it was like, like, you know, my camera creator who Stan Swazzozke, we did. Hamlet is a third thing together

and you know I found him I mean he found him because he sent me an email but you know when I'm busy

I sometimes don't respond on time you know it's like I'm not personally my

office lies and he's sent me this email just a few weeks maybe more than math

before I didn't respond you know and then I was looking for but I didn't want to work with somebody who is experienced, who is kind of a shape, and who did a lot of, let's say, normal films.

And then I just, I was going with whom should I work. I mean, what kind of person they should be? And then I said, maybe it should be somebody who is younger and who is, who is really open to, and very ambitious as well, but also, you know, really open. and really working with me to be not only low on set, but also working prep, discuss after, help me with some,

like, I don't know, you know, lists or drawing with me, some shooting plans and preparing with me this film and really take a bit of responsibility for myself because I knew that I would be very, like, you know, shooting with the 10 cameras would be crazy in a way, like, you know, you have 10 images. So what kind of person should it be?

And then I just remind myself, oh, somebody sent me and I was just texting and calling different people from my friends from agency, from school, film schools. Like, would you like to recommend me somebody? And then I just remind myself about this email from Staniswa. And then I called him immediately and said, Hi, hi, hi, sorry, what I'm doing now. I'm just, you know, somewhere shooting something with my father.

And then I said, okay, would you like to work with me on this film? I mean, can we come to my place? And then it turned out that he's quite close to Oshvienchen, to Auschwitz. And then he came next day for breakfast. And, you know, you're just sitting, discussing. And then after half an hour, I said, okay, I want to work with you. And then, you know, when we're talking, I had this total feeling that that's the guy, you know. And now we did three films together and he's amazing.

He's so talented. And but then, you know, but then John, I was talking with John after this conversation and John said, Lukash, do you have a camera creator? And yeah, I have a son, he made a great guy. I mean, what is his, you know, is his experience? I said, oh, wow, that's going to be a big thing for such a young guy. I said, oh, yeah, yeah. And I should start to wonder, wow.

Maybe my intuition, I started to really think if my sitting was right. I remember when I was there and I was sitting with this person and I really felt that this is the guy. And then I said, okay, I want to work with you after half an hour. And then said, okay, so now change your plans. Stop shooting this film. You are going to shoot with your father.

And just in five days, you start on your new journey. And yeah, but that had to be amazing for him. What an upgrade. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know, he's so talented. He's shooting, I mean, his documentaries, now he's got to shoot his first picture.

I mean, yeah, but you can see that, you know. You can see that. You can see that. I watch his films. I've heard how he's talking, how he's talking about filming. I just watch his documentaries. I just, I was absurd in how he sees, how he plans, how he, on what is he focused. And then, you know, I'm just talking with him.

I see, I can feel that he's a good human being, you know. And I can feel that he really wants, makes film, and he's totally excited about making films. And I think we always need those kind of people that, you know, really excited, not bored, not just coming to work and saying, oh, my God, you know, I'm tired today. No, I mean, I think if you can make films, you really need to love it. I mean, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, you can't be, you, you, you, you can't be, you, you, you, you can't

board, you know, of this, I think. It really is a bummer to be around people who are jaded. Yeah. Like if you're working on, you know, sometimes, I know we talked about it a little bit, sometimes you do have to take a job just to pay the bills. And then I can understand not being excited about it. But like, nothing kills a vibe, a good vibe on set more than someone who's like, I've been here before.

This sucks. You're like, okay. Well. yeah, he hasn't. They were excited until they heard you fucking do that. Like, you know, like there's other people here that might be excited just because you've been gaffing for 70 years. You know? No, but I think, you know, it's so much easier.

I think, I mean, I'm not saying to be kind of no aroused or crazy, you know, euphoric, but I think it's so much easier. I think it's like it was everything, you know. I mean, I think it's so good that you like what you're doing. And I think it's so important that you are happy when you're doing that. And you can be, because I think it's so much part, I mean, our lives, half of our lives or more, it's work. And then, you know, I mean, you need to like it. You need to like people. You need to like to be with people.

You have to. I mean, I don't have to, but I mean, it's just. food when you can laugh together if you respect people if you just I mean it's so much better and it's so much easier and you know I once

I work with my one of my guffers I really like him and you all go together still but you know we had a little conflict once because a few times he was just so tired and then he was oh my God you know I'm so tired

I mean we were shooting commercial and I said I mean, you know, I just came to it and said, no, I don't like this approach because I know that it's a bank commercial. But I decided to make this bank commercial and they pay me money. They pay me good money. They pay good money. And I see you, I just want to give them the best I can because I think it's a deal, you know. And I said, if I said yes, I'm going to do it as great.

as possible because I think it doesn't matter. I think it's, and I think that's the approach. I prefer not to do something. Yeah, I prefer not to do something or do one commercial per mouth then should, I don't know, two or three. I mean, I don't know if it's possible, but maybe some people can do that. Some GPS, I cannot do. And because I know that if you are tired, if you are, you know, exhausted,

if you are not interested, because very often it comes up, you are too, you know, overstimated. Yeah, tired. And then you lose interest. And I think it's not okay. I think it's not fair. It's not fair for anybody because sometimes I was in a situation that I was working with some people who I can see that they're tired.

You know, they are really tired. You know, they just try to survive. You know, they are in a survivor-motal set. And then you're going to another set. And honestly, I don't accept that, you know. I don't accept people. For me, like, I don't know, somebody's coming for a commercial and just he just come from, I don't know, nightshue and start work with me.

For me, it's exactly the same, like, this person was drunk, you know. I don't accept them at all. Because I think that I don't want to lose time and energy with, in working in a kind of a need. negative environment, you know, I think that's that this kind of negative energy, it's a bit like,

it's like, you know, rotting something, you know. It can destroy atmosphere. It can destroy. I mean, it's so much easier to just do it something with pleasure, with, like, you know, yesterday, I was talking

with my friend who is director and he just told me, you know, because now I'm going to, you know, I'm going to, I'm looking for we're a different place now and probably I would have to do some redecoration and he told me

no I know great people who you know just working in a construction and just you know regular grading houses and they love what they do and they are happy with what they have and they are very happy you know they just come to work

they play techno and they are working and they have fun And they are smiling and they like it. And, you know, I want to work with this kind of people. I don't want to work with people who are just coming and moving and say, oh, I'm tired, you know. So don't come, please. And I think that's exactly like, you know, we're working with people who are starting. And or people who are younger.

And, you know, I did the last few was Pavel Pavlikorski. And it's so amazing that, you know, our crew. everybody so full of commitment full of energy full of enthusiasm smiling uh anticipating you know sometimes sometimes we are literally i'm sometimes listening you know that saying oh those young people now they don't want to work i mean they're not interested they they they kind of as a you know they're basically not enthusiastic and I don't agree I mean maybe some but but I was working

with much younger people than me now and you know and that was just great just great in a way that everybody was so completely in it you know and you can feel that and then you know that we can

achieve amazing things because people like sometimes of course we have to have procedures in a field you know, because of sense, because of many things, because it's less stressful, it's sometimes, I don't know,

yeah, just, just, there are some rules in the film industry, but I know that when you have a great team, sometimes you can really achieve amazing things, you can really do something in a very short period of time. You can do something where weather changes, and then you can really rely on your crew,

and then because you know that they can really push themselves and we can really push ourselves and achieve something amazing sometimes in the very stressful conditions and accomplish something beautiful, amazing, different, new, crazy in a good way and original. But I think this can only happen if you really, really respect people and you, but not only respect, if you have this kind of a friendship, that sometimes you can also understand the moments of, I don't know, weakness that somebody

is not in a, you know, perfect performer sometimes. But then I know that when we need, and sometimes no, I can really also allow to just lower, you know, the, was like in the car, was the, no, no, no, like you know, like you have an engine, you know, and so you can drive. Yeah, yeah. So sometimes, I think, you know, that you can lower your, you know, your crew and your team RPMs, but then you can really sometimes speed up and, and really get to this, you know, red zone. and you can achieve something great but then but this can only happen

if you are surrounded by yeah I don't I'm not afraid to say that friends you know friends and colleagues and good people who but then you there must be respect and not be friendship there you know what was what was the that kind of vibe like

on Hamnet because I just saw it Wednesday I think Thursday I saw pretty recently I didn't know I was going to interview when I saw it. I saw it and then they emailed me. So I was like, oh, good for me.

But the pace at which the film intended very much just has you kind of living with the characters in a sort of observational way, in many ways. Was that reflected on set or were you guys, did you shoot that in one week and you were just hammering? You know, I can't tell. I can never tell these types of things like,

Is the front and the camera the same as the front? Was it always that, was everything kind of chill? Yes, yes. And no. I mean, it was, it wasn't, it wasn't, I mean, it wasn't chilled. It was, it was this kind of synodoid, you know. I feel like in life, like that was stressful. There was moments like things were on the border.

I mean, I don't want to exaggerate, you know, that. But there were moments that, you know, things were not working. And then we were just with Chloe coming together, with Stahu, sometimes with other people, and then we're a final solution. And that was the process always. So we were, you know, very well prepared, I think. Yeah, I think we're very well prepared. We have a decent time for preparation, but not too much time.

It was very, I mean, I was. Sometimes working, I mean, I was mostly, because I couldn't stop working. So I was working Sundays, a Saturdays, I mean, basically in a prep time. But, you know, it was like, because we agreed with Chloe at the beginning that this, we are going to shoot this film in a bitter way, like, prepare everything, you know, and build this world. And, and of course, everything was in the film is prepared. But try to create a world where we can move in a documentary manner, be to react, be free to react on things which are happening,

sometimes change decisions, sometimes change maybe even location or place that we're deciding that we're going to shoot it here. But then we see, wow, that's a better light here at this moment. And the wind is there and the light is there. And for octaves, this place works better. and then we realized, okay, let's do that here. And it was a lot of this

kind of situations on this film that we were sometimes putting our crew in a surprising situation. Because sometimes what we prepared or we thought is going to work, it didn't work, you know?

So I think this film was like this, but it was cheered. It was a, We had time. We had we had space to improvise. We had space for

rehearsals. Because for me it's always it's always like this. I really believe that you need to really prepare yourself in a way like first you prepare yourself in a very obstructive way. I mean, you're watching

films, reading books, listening music. I love, you had this like a time for dreaming. And you have your recreate, I mean, I create my like, you know, decalogue, I make notes, I'm gathering images,

going for a recis, taking pictures, placing people who are, you know, kind of the playing, the situations. We are arranging, you know, all the scenes with people from, I don't know, from production or I don't know, from production or, I don't know, Chloe and somebody. And then that's the preck starts, the real preps, which is like a kind of, you know, logistics, office, meetings, these decisions, tests, you know, accepting things. Then also working on schedule in a way of time of a day, of shooting, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. This is like a very logistic.

That's everything about logistics mostly, because you need to prepare this whole gang of people for what you are going to achieve. If you don't pass this information properly to people, it will not warn because I realize also, like just to really give people information, give them also a trust, and also give them freedom,

and also really fill them with, everything what is possible because then, I mean, because I just think how I would like to be treated by director, you know, if I would like to be treated like this or like this, and then I realize, okay, I want trust. I would like to be trusted. I would like that somebody's giving me freedom. I would like that somebody would like to discuss with me.

I would like to have creative conversations. I would like to be inspired. I would like to feel, you know, to have this creative fun. So I think that's so important that you just exactly do the same and you give as much, you know, to everybody. Because then it will help them to do their job, and then they can be as well inspired. And then we are together creating this film at the end.

no, I'm myself, I can't. It's impossible. I cannot do anything myself, you know. And then when the film starts, I mean, I'm not saying I forget anything because I don't forget, but I never use my notes. Sometimes only when I feel lost. But I remember everything.

What you mean? Yeah. I just, I feel like, okay, now that's the time. I decided what I decided. And then I'm going there, I need to find ourselves there. And then it's nothing more I can do. And then I know, okay, we have what we have. And then we need to find ourselves in this environment.

And I can be, I mean, honestly, when I'm shooting, for me, priorities to sleep well, to rest, to be in a good shape, to be not tired, to not get exes, exhausted and recover quickly because and then you can really it's like a marathon yes so we need to really prepare yourself for this time and because you need to run for a long time and if you see in a good shape on the first day and it would be on a good shape in a 40scent day and and and and and and I love this moment that you know I I I hear oh now I cannot change anything you know I mean it has to be

and then you just sometimes forget I mean you have everything in mind but then you are open to new things you are open to

this what is happening and then sometimes completely different different happens you know it's like I think this is with Pavel Pamikowski

this is very not extreme but it's like he's working like that for he starts with like a script which is like a script but it's not it's not you know uh when it's not set stone you know it's not it's not cut in marble yeah yeah it's not it's not cut in marble it's it's

just uh it's just uh i don't know 40 15 pages of a story about the making a film is really discover this while making this film and I think for me that's the best and the most beautiful way to really achieve something different

because that's a process and we as a group we really discovering something and of course the director is a leader and and he's but I think we are together in this process of finding something

And sometimes it could be different than this, what was before. And I think that's the most exciting part of making it feel that, you know, like one political director who said, if I knew what this film is going to be about, I wouldn't do that with you. Well, and to your point about, like, notes and, you know, preparing and everything, there's definitely, it took me a long time to learn that that like that type of stuff while some of it does need to be like exact you know sometimes lighting diagrams for like a stage or something else exactly yeah of course um but it informs your instincts like if you sit there and you're slavishly you know stuck on the notes i think you're this is all very david lynch but just the idea of like the ideas come to you you those are what make the story the the inspiration

certainly filmmakers who are excellent at making an exact plan and dial it but that's because they're geniuses. I think unless you're a genius, letting the work speak to you results in a better result. If you sit there and try to mold the work

into your preconceived notion of what it should be and that preparation and instinct allows for that. What was the best? Oh, go ahead. Yeah, you know, because I think, but from the other hand, you know, if you are...

Yeah, maybe they are geniuses, but from the other hand, how can you predict? How can you... Because I think we need to be open for... I think it's like a documentary, because this really reminds me

and this... This is a bit like, you know, documentary approach. you are shooting documentary and you're constantly aware, you're constantly observing, you constantly looking for something, you're constantly just looking at 360, because you don't know, I mean, in certain point, you know, like I had this so many times in my life when I was shooting documentary

that I was shooting something just because, yeah because I decided to shoot let's say people in the window sitting we decided to the director and then we are outside of the house and then we're just shooting but then you're shooting and you're just interested

in what is happening there and then sound out of the sudden something unexpected happens which completely changes the whole thing and I think it's exactly like in a film

you just need to observe like you need to really observe the reality I think that's the point you know that being present being here and now that you're constantly observing this reality this is your set

so you are focused on a shop that's fine but then you just absurd me because maybe just there there's a better

better shock. Maybe there's a better solution for this and maybe this situation can sometimes develop in a way that you need to change staging. You need to change your camera position. You need to change a camera work. You need to basically change your approach. And how can you do that?

If you let's say you when you even are present on a a rehearsal with actors. But really on set in costumes, that the thing happened in the morning, you know, when we're just we are coming, we have our approach,

we have ideas. It was like very often that, you know, Chloe was coming in the morning with her ideas, that, you know, we have a whole film shot list that, we have also be always that I always, I always do like a

photo storyboards, like a Photoshop list, so I'm just placing you know, the, I just do, I always do something like this. I mean, not always, but from few years, from, from, from, from, from, from, from, from interest, I do shooting there. And then I place all the information there, you know, I have, I, I'm making like a shooting plans or something like this where I put always the, you know, basically from the schedule, I put, you know, the number of a scene, what is happening.

And, I mean, the sun positions, all the images of the sun, all the images. of all the notes which are important, and then I'm placing images, all the camera setups there. Sometimes I'm drawing the top shot or placing everything or inspirations or basically everything, what is important for this.

And because I'm working on that, with my iPad and drawing this and really sitting with those images, which I really love, like doing some choral correction, I'm just basically spending, time with those images. So then when I'm doing that,

this somehow, I spent so much time with those images that they're all sitting in me. So then I don't need to even look at this. I mean, sometimes I look because it was, oh, we had a great idea. Let's find our plans, you know, and this is fun.

Yeah, that was a good day. But I think, so you come with this ideas, but in the morning you have a day night before, you can really focus on the evening before, and then director has evening before, then you are making it in a morning, and then everybody has ideas, then you're exchanging ideas,

then we do rehearsal, and you have all those ideas, and they exchange ideas, and then there is a rehearsal, and honestly, for me, the rehearsal moment, when I, with a viewfinder or I don't know,

Artemis, that's the most important moment, when I really get into this kind of a hyper-focus mode. Because that's the most important for moments for me when you rehearse. Because I know that I have, I don't know, 20 minutes now, I have 20 minutes to have final ideas, final decisions, and those decisions will be not reversible. and then that you will stay forever because then I need to execute that

and then of course I can maybe tweak something, change something, adjust something. That is why you know always you put camera on a dolly so you can be very fast, you know, and you can move camera. And I try to do everything. It's on dimmer, you know, everything on iPad. You can do, basically you can change a lot. And you can paint this image because I see very often

I sit with a director in front of a monitor. I'm operating only sometimes. And then I treat this image as a canvas a bit so I can shape this, I can change it, I can even while we are shooting the shot, I can do some little changes

in between takes. But I know that the moment when we are rehearsing and I make decisions and take pictures always, you know, all the angles and all the camera movements, that's the moment where or I

achieve something or I will not achieve something and that's the most important moment for me when the rehearsal happened then you know I always and you know I learned his because you know when I was younger

I thought that preparation is it's I thought that the preparation transfer linear yeah

transfer linearly linearly yeah yeah to what you the work into the work into the work

yeah and I thought that when I was younger and and then I realized like on in Ida

that you know I was not prepared and then I realized what can I do I need to find myself there

I need to be really open you know I was sleeping eight hours running, not drinking alcohol, keeping myself in a good shape because I knew, oh, I was not prepping the film. Richard was prepping.

Then I became DP. And then, you know, I was just coming to locations he decided. And I said, what can I do? I mean, I'm not able to prepare myself better because it's impossible. What can you do? I can just be open. And then, you know, in the zone of Vinters, I was exactly like this. this. We, you know, we had the, we prepared everything. We had like our shooting plans and all the

images we, we, we put into documents. But it was, you know, that was just a plan. And then we were coming in the morning, finding a friend. I mean, we find the friends, we found the, we found the friends for the whole film in a prep time. But then we were coming in the morning and we were placing cameras, real cameras. We were really cameras. people with our like a team of 20 people of your own camera assistants, focus schoolers and our grips, 10 cameras. And we have, we had a very advanced comms.

And then we, and I was setting 10 cameras at the same time, you know. And my, my, my brain was crying, you know, in terms of like, be here. See, not here. Okay, B is good. And then it was a fur, after two hours, it was a first image of 10 cameras. Then we see people with John looking at this, you know.

10 images and a big monitors. The journal was asking, what do you feel? I don't know. Yeah. And then we see every look at each other and Johnny, oh, this is great. This is terrible. This is, oh, this is great. Oh my God, this is terrible.

This doesn't work. This doesn't work. Oh, this could be good. And then I'm just saying, okay, John, okay. I'll be back in one hour and a half. And then, you know, after some time, we were sitting in front of those monitors again. And it was like, oh, wow, this is great, this is great, this is great, this is great, this is great, this is great, oh, this is too shit, okay.

But nine of them was great. And, you know, and the process was always the same. Even we knew the locations, even we knew our system, even we knew our environment, even we were learning something every day. Every time the process was like this. It was basically not good at the first time. And then it was what it was at the end. So that's the approach. And I knew that, you know, the moment we are setting up the cameras.

that's exactly like this deciding moment. It's a moment where or am I going to really find it or not? And then, and then, you know, it would be catastrophe. Yeah. I'm going to have to let you go here soon,

but I did want to ask another question about Hamlet. It's to the lighting. Because obviously, you know, talking about zone of interest, that was just, it was appropriate for whatever time of day it was. You know, it was.

Yeah. It was just the light. But Hamnet felt it didn't feel lit at all, but it still didn't feel like the sun. It felt it felt it felt prettier than that in a way. This obviously interior is different. But even the exterior, especially a lot of stuff in the forest, just felt very, I guess pretty is the right word.

But it just felt really nice. And I was wondering what the approach was to the lighting in general. Was it all just, going with proper sun placement and hopefully it's a little diffuse up there like yours obviously you just had a window or a candle or whatever

but what was the kind of generalized approach you know interiors henley house interiores but all the interiors but the henley house because it was built like the farm was not built but the henley house was built

so on the stage The Henley Street, yeah, yeah. It was built on the parking lot because we wanted to have daylight, natural. But so how excited Gaffer, he got a great idea that we got four, four clips with huge cranes. Like, I don't know, there were 8 by 8 meters, so something huge, but even more bigger, but I think 8 by 8, I don't want to exaggerate. So, and then, so, you know, it was a lot of liking outside. It was basically all the light we have inside was basically 18-carriage,

friendels, which were all bounced from those frames. Because, you know, we were, because we had the house and also we had the wall, which was, you know, opposite. So because we shot exteriors in the weddling and interiors we shot, you know, on this parking lot in a build house. interior, sorry, interiors, yeah. So basically it was a lot of light. It was a huge amount of light outside.

But it was so big, it was so bound. Sometimes it was direct, but it was always, all the sun is there. Yeah, it's, yeah, it's, there are a few largest lighting grid. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was huge with the cherry pickers. And because, no, if you're shooting one camera, And, you know, you start in the morning and then you shouldn't even the whole scene.

I mean, as you know, of course. But, you know, you need to keep the same light condition, you know, and you cannot rely on the sun, like on zone of interest. You know, we could use natural light because we had 10 cameras. But in Hamlet, we just need to create that to keep the environment. So sometimes, you know, Saul was blocking the, even, you know, after the Hamlet death, he was just blocking the basically the whole

sunlight, the whole you know, the sky and he was just bouncing 18Ks and no and then inside we're also we are also augmenting this with some very soft

vortex or light mats basically and at night the same you know the the trees and inside we'd be shooting with candles. Of course the candles were the main source light, but we were, because candles are really slinkering.

So we were adding, we had a trace with candles with some reflectors off screen, and also we were creating like a very sourced, big, like almost sometimes like whole wall, you know, because the light was ever from, for example, the cameras was from here. So here it was very soft and very weak, light mats or asteras. And it was, so was using very nice fabrics.

He was trying to use always like a natural fabric, like, you know, bleach or unbleached muslin or sometimes greed but also like a, you know, different kind of, you know, natural fabrics to also create like a very nice and cozy atmosphere for octaves. And in a forest, of course, we were trying to embrace natural light and it was very often natural life. But, you know, we are also usually some mirrors. We had some sources like 18-8-Ks.

sources and also we had some using a lot of negative feel and also we have a great like a negative steel balloon which was very nice because you know we can put it balloon which was because black balloon we had a black balloon oh wow yeah so that was really cool I really like it and you know we were embracing natural light and the key was to schedule shooting time properly to have a good light and we'll anticipate how long the rehearsal is going to happen. So then we land in a perfect light. But always we were adding a little bit, but always trying to, you know, to keep this like natural, not to not to have too much.

And I think for the film, the most important rule was to really keep it simple, natural naturalistic not fleshy sometimes you know have a bit more less light

than than much and always we've sold we're just looking at the monitors what do you think I think I feel this life

and I think yeah I have the same you know and then we were always like you know oh my God that was the word of substructing

and opposite of taking away yeah Alex not adding but yeah yeah yeah

okay but anyway yeah together we are just really kind of always trying to yeah that was the

most upon a rule that the light is invisible you know and I think that's always my rule that you cannot

see the right you know I honestly I don't like this kind of a Hollywood

look when you really emphasize main actors with light where you I mean honestly I don't like like a fashion portrait

yeah but you know honestly I don't like when film looked like a film yeah no I get what you mean yeah like the like when it looks manufactured

when it looks like a film like you can read and feel like you watch a film I mean the way that my my always my aim is to capture a piece of life

you know capture a piece of presence, capture a piece of, in this prepared world, capture a piece of true. And I think that must be, you know, the light, of course, the most important thing

happening in between cast, atmosphere, lighting, wind, and all those things, sometimes they come together, and then something real and beautiful and some truth is captured. And I think that's my goal, you know, always,

always to create such an environment that you'll be able to achieve that. This capture, this piece of life which doesn't look like a film, it's a bit not perfect. It's not perfectly synchronized, you know. I hate when I see sometimes like extras are walking like on two

that I can feel that you know camera is moving and and you can really see in a you know in a foreground that everything's that it looks like a film no I always I always watch the you know the foreground sorry

I always watch background and you can really feel if this is real if this is a piece of life is this a bit unperfect a bit unsynchronized you know, feel the choreography sometimes.

Yeah, like lie. Yeah, sometimes you can see that. And I think that's the most important not to feel that, you know, just to, but to achieve that, I think sometimes you need to lose control. Sometimes you need to really desynchronize things or sometimes allow yourself for a mistake, for

perfection, for for a bit of luck, you know, and then you just need to lose control sometimes. And then the most beautiful things may happen. Well, this film, I'm not even going to lie. The first like 30 minutes, I was just like, all right, okay. This is good.

I'm enjoying this, but I wasn't quite, I didn't feel fully bought in. And then I'm not joking, man. Obviously, this is going to ruin a little bit for people who haven't seen it. But when she reaches out to the actor, I bro I felt like I got kicked in the chest by a horse it's one of the most emotive reactions I've had to a film which one which one did which one

in Hamnet when at the end when she when the when the actors in front of the mom and she reaches out to him bro I like I felt like I got shot like it was incredibly powerful filmmaking and I have not

experienced that in a theater in a very long time. And like I said, at the beginning, I was like, all right. And then to go from that to, again, like, I felt like my chest caved in. It physically. And it was just incredibly well done. I don't think you could fake everything you guys did put together a film that resulted in that. And I have to absolutely give you your flowers for that because it was incredible.

Wow. But do you know about Wendy? Thank you. Wow, but that's, yeah, that's the best award, you know, to really listen to me this kind of feedback. And that's so fantastic. And, you know, when this happened, when we're shooting with moments, we were whispering all of us, the crew, you know, it was such a sirens. Because the jesse was so, oh my God, there's the word, vulnerable, vulnerable. You were so

Oh my God I need to say one more like It's a tough one Vulneral Yeah Vulnerable yeah So when we're shooting this scene

You know Everybody was whispering Because Jesse was She was so vulnerable And And then We were just like Because not

We knew that He is not dying for real You know But But he I don't know He was so real, those candles,

this, you know, this situation, everything. Even, you know, you, we were on the parking lot in this built house, but inside, it was so really, it was so beautiful to that. So you really felt that you are there. And I remember like after this shot, exactly, I called this day.

I'll talk about it at the end. Ah, you're watching the play. Ah, fuck. No, that kid, no, no. All right. That kid also deserves 100 awards. Yeah. I got. She's in question. Yeah, yeah. But I was specifically talking about the mom at the end when they're watching the play.

Okay. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think, you know, that will feel the same, you know, that was the atmosphere there. It was so amazing that, you know, it wasn't like it's a film, it's a shake, you know. It was really when you were there, when we were looking at this, even with your arms, that was really, you know. That was really, you know, that was really this, what is in the thing. film that was there and the crew felled this and we

all felt that and that was amazing experience that you know because we were really feeling everybody was like wow we're doing something important we're doing something I mean you could feel this atmosphere in the film like

yeah we are just seeing that you're creating something you know and that was really yeah it was amazing That was beautiful. But also because, you know, there was such an amazing group of people. And yeah, and everybody was completely 100%. There was no rotten apple.

Nobody. There was nobody who was no, you know, nobody who was not fully in it. Thank you. Wow. Thank you so much. First man. And thank you for spending the time with you. I really would love to keep chatting with you. but last time I did a three-hour podcast, I got yelled at. So we're going to, so we'll just have to have you back on in the future. Thank you so much for this conversation because, yeah, I'm doing happy that we're able to talk much deeper about this process.

Because always it's very rare to discuss it, you know, so deeply. Frame and Reference is an Albot production, produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so by going to frame and refpod.com and clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated. And as always, thanks for listening.