Frame & Reference Podcast - 227: "Train Dreams" Cinematographer Adolpho Veloso

Episode Date: January 29, 2026

Today I'm privilidged to be joined by Adolpho Veloso, here to talk about his recent, wildly popular film Train Dreams, which recently netted him nominations for the Cinematography Oscar and an ASC award!Enjoy!► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠F&R Online ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Support F&R⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Watch on YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Produced by Kenny McMillan► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Hello and welcome to this episode 227 of Frame and Reference. You're about to drop a new conversation between me, Kenny McMillan, and my guest, Adolfo Veloso, DP of Train Dreams. Joy. Obviously, after five years of doing these interviews, like, I'll get a lot of, oh, you should talk to this person. And it used to be, like, how am I supposed to find that person? And then they always end up coming by. And one of them was when Train Dreams was in theaters for, like, however long that was, like, a few weeks. like I probably got five or six text messages.

Like you got to find this guy. And I was like, I'll try. And then I got an email about it like like a week later. It's great. You see? Things align eventually sometimes. Yeah. Well, and also I think it just speaks to like how good of a job you did.

Because a lot of my friends don't work in film. Like I'm a DP, but I mostly shoot documentaries. So one of my friends are going out to see any of my movies, you know. And so it's cool when like, they'll hit me up and be like, hey, I know you talk to other people. Like,

you know, they don't care about what I do. They're like, hey, you talk to the people who shoot things, right? Train Dreams is really good. You should talk to that guy.

That's cool. That's lovely. Yeah, that's a cool thing about like, especially with Netflix and releasing it, there's something that are like, I'm from Brazil and it's really rare that any of my, like,

watch the things I do because they usually go to like, in the theaters or whatever, you know, like it's really rare that my aunt in the countryside of Brazil got to watch anything I do. And the cool thing about this movie is that suddenly everybody back in Brazil could watch it. And like all my family and friends watched it. So it's the first thing I do in my life that basically everybody that's around me watched it that came to talk to me about it. And it was amazing also to see how much.

it was relatable to them also, you know. So it is quite surprising, but super cool. Do you run into situations where like you're saying like, all your friends and family finally got to see something where they go like, hey, I didn't know you were good at that. Because you always tell, you know, when you're close to it, everyone just assumes like, yeah, okay. No, yeah, it's fun.

I mean, especially most of my like school friends, I mean, none of my school friends do anything like what I do, you know, like they all in veterans and it's funny because when the whole reception with Train Dream started and all the awards conversations started, they were all like really happy and freaking out, even though they like don't really understand that like the other day, we had the Critics Choice Awards and they had no idea. the other fuck was that they never heard about the critic as words ever before in their life.

Of course, because why would they? And when it happened, they were all watching it live and like that was the most important thing. They were, you know, like, and they all cheered and they were super happy about it. And it's just nice that they are happy, but they also said something, one of my friends had something really cool, which was,

and kind, which was like, wow, we always knew that would happen. We just didn't know it would be that early. And I was just like so humble by then, but it was just so happy to see, like, even though they don't understand, they have no idea what I do in the end. You know, most of them are like, if I ask them to describe my job, they probably won't know. But it was cool to see them really there for it. Then I even send them a message the other day saying, like, it's cool because, like, even though you guys don't understand, you've always been very understanding about the things I had to give up because of this job.

And the fact that I missed a lot of your weddings and your birthdays and whatever. like I'm I wasn't there for a lot of the things that that were important for them and for us is a group of friends for example or family the same with family that is just cool to to see that they were always understanding about it like they know even though they have no idea what what is it without they know that it was important to not always be there and the struggles and to move to a non-aic country and to be always somewhere else shooting a movie and not having weekends or whatever and and they've both family and friends always been supportive about it so um it is nice to see them happy about it too like it was that kind of things or things that they are living to and which is true it's a or the experience or the recognition, it's a lot about what you do as a DP or as a

filmmaker, but also a lot about the people around you that support you and that kind of like build it with you. Yeah. Yeah, it's no, there's no, I don't think there's any filmmaker, but certainly no DP that lives in a vacuum.

Yeah. You know, it can feel, feel very solitary in ways, but I think that that's something I always try to tell like film students is like, hey, you should go to film school, not necessarily for the education, but for the, everyone always says like, oh, you're going to build your network there. But specifically, it's like finding your friend who you get along with and being like, all right, you know, fate put us together. Let's see if this works. Yeah, if it doesn't, you move on. But, um, Yeah, it's hard to explain to people. Like, and especially too with all of the sort of, um, the pageantry, I guess, around filmmaking, you know, the red carpets and the whole thing and the, and the glamour. The mysticism.

The glamour. Which I do think is, I'm starting to come around. I used to think that was all bullshit and I'm starting to come around on the idea of like, film should be like today, you know, as. as everything is, you know, streaming and with strikes and everything, I think the idea of creating a little bit of mystery around film is good. Yeah. You know, I want, I love, you know, I grew up on special features on DVDs and having the mystery pulled away.

But just the idea of like making it an event, I think is starting to become more important. Agree. I feel like there is something amazing about. being a big event and I feel like there's something about the magic of cinema and I think that's the reason I even wanted to do what I do

because movies were that kind of door to other worlds and to magic stuff but it's also like it's funny because it's also like that whole thing is also like going back to the thing like about this movie being the first movie that my family in the countryside of Brazil

ever watch it, there is something also that whole mysticism also is less democratic in a way, you know, so it's just like how you keep the mysticism, how you keep the glamoros feeling about it and the special thing about it, but democratize it at the same time,

you know, yeah, I don't, it's a question, I'm just asking a question, I don't. I don't know, I don't know. The answer, you know. I don't either, but I do think that, that does kind of come down to, I think, like I think maybe a good analogy is like, I've always kind of bemoaned the death of actual radio DJs.

You know, back in the day when the DJ would actually pick the music and now it's just the playlist they hit go on that, you know, there's still personalities and stuff, but they oftentimes don't get to choose. And then very late at night around here in L.A., every once in a while, you'll get like a radio DJ who gets to choose their own music for like a half hour. I remember growing up in the San Francisco Bay Area.

There was a fun half hour called the Six Mix. And it was this guy, Party Ben, and he DJed this whole half hour with no interruptions. And he was mashing up all these songs and stuff. And that was like, I would always tune into that. It made it exciting. So to your point about democratization, you know, those DJs could pick any song. I think now that we have, you know, your film A is easier to get in a theater from a technical standpoint.

You know, you just, the theaters download it off some server somewhere or get a DCP. Yeah. But also I think it's going to be incumbent upon not only the theaters, but like some form of taste maker to who has the, you know, I'm just making up names. But like, let's say George Clooney decides to get into distribution. They're not distribution, but exhibition. Yeah. like and having him go around and be like these are the indies that i've picked so you know and it's like the the george cluny film hour you know whatever something like that i think is going to be

where potentially it could head or should head maybe oh totally because that's what you know festivals are but i think festivals are kind of inaccessible in some ways do you know you see that online a lot of people like i submitted to every festival and no one accepted me and it's like well your film might have been bad, but there's certainly an element of like... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but what I'm saying is more for the audiences, you know, not for... Like, how...

When I'm saying, democratization is how we make films and those experiences available to everybody. I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which streaming should have done, but then now you're dealing with the lack of, of the pageantry. Well, exactly. Yeah. So what's the middle ground?

Yeah. I guess build more theaters, hopefully. That would be an interesting thing. Like, because, you know, technology has changed so much. Like, obviously right now, real estate's real expensive, but that could be an interesting development in the next decade. Like, do we just start building? Because the town I grew up and only had a one-screen theater, it wasn't that big, you know?

Yeah. And then if you really want to see something. Those theaters are kind of dying, though, which is sad. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, something that occurred to me earlier was when you were talking about, your friends don't really know. For a film like Train Dreams where, you know, it's hard to explain to people like,

oh, we didn't just set up a camera and start shooting. There was a lighting team. There was grips. There was, you know, the art department. There was all this other stuff. And then Train Dreams is like, well, we kind of just went in the forest and shot. Like was it like an easier thing to explain to people for this specific project like, we just kind of shot it?

I remember I saw, I think a tweet or something like, it's unbelievable that they take more than two days to shoot a movie that it's one and an hour half long, which is true. You know, like for what doesn't do that? Like how wide do you need more than like a day to shoot something that is like, one hour long, like, what's, how does that work? And I feel like, yeah, I feel like it's hard to understand. I remember the first time I saw a film set, like a real film set. I was in film school and right next to the place that I went to film school,

Fernando Morellis that did City of God was shooting blindness right next to, to the university and we went to the street to watch it. And it was amazed by how it looked like nothing was happening the whole time. I was like, I was like, why did they not shooting? Like what is happened? I couldn't understand. Like it's like, is something wrong? Like why?

I stayed there for like an hour and they didn't do a take. And I was like, it was the first time that I understood how long things take and how, how, how, how, how and then obviously that's the reality but the amount of work and the amount of people working behind it and the amount of like stuff that takes it which is funny because it's almost like what we try to kind of emulate in another way on train dreams we I mean Clint and I shot Jockey together his first movie that he invited me. to do it. And it was a super small movie, right?

We had a crew of like 10 people, tiny, tiny budget. And even though that was super hard to do, because obviously when you don't have money and you don't have resources and you have a smaller crew, there's things that are super hard to get. But at the same time, that gave us so much freedom. It was just like so much easier to do a lot of things that with a bigger crew, we could not make it. at all that I think like there is so much some magic to like to have a smaller footprint,

to have a smaller size in terms of like the production somehow that allows you so many things that like a bigger production doesn't. And I think that's what we try to do on train rooms. Okay, this is not a jockey. This is a film that is like 20 times bigger. Not only it's a period movie and that complicates everything already. So that's one thing, but there's so many bigger scenes and it's just a different scale. But how do we protect that smaller environment that feels like we just went to the woods with one camera and shot it?

You know, even though there's like a hundred people here behind the camera. And how do we make it look like which was just as almost like we've got a time machine, went to 1920, brought Joe Arderton with us and just shot the thing with a camera. And it is uncommon somehow to that approach. So it is a lot of talking and planning and discussions around how we made that happen. Like no one is used to this approach. I mean, most of the people are not. So it's just like, okay, how do we make it feel like,

it's just us here. How we park all the trucks far away in a way that if we want to 360 the camera here, if we're going to change from being inside the cabin to be outside, we can do that in a minute and not worry about, okay, now we need to move all the trucks and we know like all those things that in some projects

are kind of the way to go. And I feel like it is a lot of planning and it's a big effort on the whole crew. And especially because it's not what everybody's necessarily used to do. But it's and people need to give up some things also like on all sides, on my side too. And I feel like when you are able to do that, the magic that comes from it is just so.

It's, it's sad. Like you have a whole structure. to make it look like you're pedant, which is weird to think about it, but bad freedom, the fact that you are there on a cabin that like the art department build that works, that that cabin is an actual cabin. They built it on location and someone could actually live there

and everything is practical. All the drawers have stuff that actually worked if they suddenly wanted to cook a meal there, they could. You know, like it, when you have that sense of reality, not only for the end result, but for the process, if it just feels so much easier to, to do, to do the movie, to be there the whole time. It feels better. You all tied.

Like, Clint was talking about that the other day. It's like, if it was cold, we would just light a fire, you know? And then that's amazing, you know, because it is what. You would do and it's not like, it's almost like you're immersing yourself in that movie in a way that the only aspect that is actually not supposed to be there as the camera. And then you try to make that camera as invisible as possible. And yeah, I feel like the magic that comes out from it is it's kind of very, very special in, especially on this movie. important for the story. Yeah, you know, it's when watching it, that was something, you know, I'd looked up a little bit before I watched it and then I looked up more afterwards.

But the way that your compositions came together really did make me think like they had, obviously, I know you shot it in like, what, 29 days or some tiny-ass schedule. But it did feel like, and maybe this is just part of the magic trick, but it did feel like you had. enough time to really consider the frame and go like where because if you're rushed you know it very easily you can just go like right you know backlit sun boom got him all right cool but it but there was just so many random little compositions that i not random like they felt random but you know sprathing through the film where i was just like this feels like they had enough time to sit there and go like what not not just what looks pretty but what feels right you know and and it's i feel like that consideration not only enhanced the film, but must have felt gratifying.

Yeah, I feel like it is a lot of, and then it goes back to like planning a lot and and having a lot of conversations. I feel like we, we, we like to do something. I like to do it and that's something we develop with Clint too, which is like create some rules because it's what you said like 29 days you're there you rushed you shooting things out of order is so easy to get lost one we thought just like looks better or with whatever and once you set up those rules of like depending on what part of the movie that scene is about or what the characters are feeling are when you just have those general rules it's easier to

make the decisions because then you have that rule for a reason, okay, this is this part of the movie. We're going to have a camera that behaves this way and this is the type of lens we want to use on that, that thought in advance because of the story of the movie when you have the time when you are sitting down, comfortably on a chair with the script and thinking about it. And then when you are that rushed and you don't necessarily have the time to think much, you just go back to those rules, you know, okay, this is the, this is, this is, this is, the scene of when he's a teenager, when he's a teenager, we're not going to, the rule we created is that we're not going to move the camera for example, on train for him.

So whenever he's a teenager or a kid, the camera is always 100% static to evoke the feeling that you actually just remembering that through a picture and you're not sure if you actually remember that or like it, it's that thing that I feel myself. Like whenever I think about my childhood memories, a lot of them are actually just because I saw a picture of that. And I'm not sure if what I remember is what happened or just the picture that I saw at some point. So we wanted to have that feeling for his childhood and teenager years. And that's the rule. Okay.

So whenever we were shooting those scenes, that's the first thing. Like it's already easy to know what to do with the camera, you know, which tool you need. You know what the camera is supposed to do. And then, okay, how to frame? Okay, the camera is not moving, okay, but how are we going to frame it? What is this about? What the character is feeling here? Okay, this is the part of the movie that it's memories and we wanted to feel like it's

still pictures of what's happening. And we want the environment to be important to what that character is feeling, isolation, et cetera. So you know that you want to have. a lot of head room and space around them and all those rules were preconceived in a way that when you get to that, even that you have, if you have five minutes to think about the shot, it's kind of fast and easy to do it because you know what you're supposed to do narratively. And then you're not worried about, hey, what's the best way to photograph this location?

Because it's not about that. It's not about like how to make this hotel room here look good. It's about, okay, what the character is feeling, what the story is about. And I feel like in a sense, maybe that's what you're talking about. Like, it doesn't feel rushed because even though the daily shooting was always rushed, those things, those thoughts were not rushed.

We had a lot of time to think about all that. Like from the moment I got the first draft that Clint sent me to when we actually shot it, that was probably more than a year. You know, so it's not that it was 100% involved in the project thinking about it the whole time, but we were constantly talking about it than I. So he would send me ideas. I would send ideas.

And so those rules kind of developed throughout a year or something. So, no. Yeah. You know, it reminds me of a, yeah, I think you're right. That's probably the best way to put it in my head was like, not that you had all the time in the world to shoot it, but more that the time that you had, you did have was spent creatively and not logistically.

Yeah. You know, one thing that I've mentioned this before, but like, um, the quote that, uh, Adam Savage probably stole from someone, but it was like, uh, kind of one of the best things that can happen to you is to have, uh, branches cut off your decision tree. You know, when you have restraint or when you choose restraint or rules, um, cuts those branches off your decision tree. So now you have, you know, either A or B. And you're like, that's way easier than when you're given anything.

You know, what would you like to do? You're like, I don't, I don't know. But if it's like, okay, you know, it's going to be on tripod. It's going to be on a 40 millimeter. You know, like, all right, now I can just focus on the one thing. Like, where is the composition and we don't have lights? Send it. You know, yeah.

Yeah, because it's that. No, like when you're framing something, people tend to think about it as you were choosing what's going to go inside. But I feel like it's a lot about, like, actually choosing what is not important and then what you're leaving outside your frame. You know, so it's just like, okay, this is it? So when you put the camera there and you feel like, okay, is this everything that needs to be here?

Does this thing here need to be here or should we like, pan this way to get this out of there or should we go tighter or whatever to like what is actually necessary here? So you're just like kind of removing things out of it. Aetaphorically or actually we're just taking those objects out or moving your camera. camera, whatever, and with training to, to, okay, what's actually important here?

And I feel like whenever you're choosing something, you're saying no to so many other things. And I always say that like because I don't come from a photography background. It's not that I studied photography and then I went to cinematography. I just loved movies and at some point I realized that I wanted to do movies and then inside movies,

movies, the cinematography was the part I liked. So for me, it was always hard and it is still super hard to shoot something if it's just supposed to look good or like if you tell me right now, if you tell me right now, take a picture of this room, I will have no idea of what to do. Like I don't even know what lens you choose or light is supposed to be. be or where even to put the camera like, really, I wouldn't know, you know, like if you, if four seasons hired me to do pictures of this room,

I would be lost, you know, like I have no idea. But as soon as you tell me, I'll take pictures of this room because there was a crime, someone died here and this bad and this thing happened. And for us, it is important to show the state of this room and how, whatever. And then suddenly, okay, now, now maybe I know where to, okay, someone died in this room. Where? Where did they find about it on the floor?

So maybe the camera should be on the floor. You know, like, and then you're like, and then I can suddenly think about the choices of where to put the camera, how to light it, what lens to choose. Because of the things I'm hearing are the lack of information, right? Like, okay, we don't know how we died. So, okay, what, what is an interesting way? Like, should we put in the camera high up, like a security camera that didn't grab them? You know, I don't know.

Anyway, so it's just like coming from, coming from a feeling and a story, et cetera, it kind of makes it easy. And that's something like I sometimes take stills and I like to take pictures of things and random people and people I talk to. And for me, it's always hard again to just take picture of random things and like landscape. But it's just like most of the pictures I take are from people that I got to at least talk a bit and spend a bit of time talking to that person and interacting. because then the picture that I end up liking that I took off that person is a picture that came right in the end when I kind of like learned something about it and then it made sense because then that picture balance or whatever I chose in the way to frame that person I had to do with the interaction I had with that person and what I learned from them. I know. Makes this way. No, 100%. I think that's one of the things that definitely took me a while to learn was the idea of sort of trusting your emotions to inform what you're filming as opposed to, as you said, like just making a pretty picture.

Yeah. Because it's relatively easy to make a pretty picture. it's harder to make a picture that tells, as my old directing teacher said, making the audience feel the way you want them to feel when you want them to feel it. You know, to be able to in one frame, you know, you spend time talking to someone, you're like, hey, let me take your portrait. The way that you present them will immediately inform the viewer of how you feel about that person, the way that, you know, and that's a, that's, that's a, that's, that's a, that's

hard skill to master. Yeah. It's what makes it cool, or something. Like, well, what makes it fun? Yeah. Yeah. It's like trying to kind of unlock a puzzle almost. Yeah.

Did you, so shooting the movie almost exclusively, either at night or, you know, magic hour or stuff, did you find yourself having to, or was it helpful? I was going to say fight the urge to just make it pretty, because obviously, Golden Hour, are very pretty, you know, and you're in a gorgeous forest and stuff. Did you find yourself, like, having to kind of lock in a little bit more? Because, you know, eventually might just be like, ooh, because there are a few frame, you know, every once in a while, there's like just kind of a tableau of like the sky with birds or like a nice forest wherever.

and you can maybe scratch that itch that way, but, you know, or even like, did you find yourself maybe at some point having wanting to break the rules that you would set because like in the moment, you're like, oh, that'd be good to move. No, you know. Well, he doesn't know. And I feel like whenever you feel like you need to break a loo, that's also something important to listen to. And if there's a reason, like, why not?

I feel like it don't need to be necessarily 100% stuck to those rules if they don't feel right. But I feel like in the end, we didn't break many of the rules we kind of established. There was a bit of everything, like because we wanted the movie to feel like mostly like memories. and that feeling that you just seeing those pictures trying to figure out what that life was. There was some elements to me that we were like, okay, let's shoot.

Actually, when he's with his family in those moments that he reminds, remembers of those moments at his best years and best moments on his life, not necessarily all those moments would have happened when the life was magical. But that's how you remember them. You know, like, we just wanted to evoke a feeling that like,

okay, when you remember something that feels quite special for you, you're going to remember it differently. And more magical, more pretty, pretty, or more like you might remember someone being prettier than they are, nicer than they are, just because you love them or something. and I feel like that. And I feel like that was something that also was kind of important for us narratively. And then like the first time in the movie that he sees super like high and harsh sun is the scene that like he sees the whole fire, the forest burning.

And then you cut to a very bright like for the first time in the movie, very harsh son of him there looking at his house burned. which is the first time you see that place on a harsh life, which is not the good memories that he had from that he had from that place. So I feel like it's also a way to use it in our advantage to say things with our visual language somehow. And I think we also had so many moments that we had that freedom to just move the camera around, especially like those moments of him with family. That rule of his adult life was basically the memories I have from now and that I feel

like people have from after they are like adult already are so random in a way that you remember things in different ways, right? There's memories that are super vivid that you remember like you were there. So the camera is there. The camera is present. It's a handheld camera. Almost like you were a character there. There is things that you remember also through a picture.

And so the camera is not moving or something like that. There is things that you remember just a feeling, something very interior. You remember you were sad, but you don't entirely remember you don't entirely remember what you were or you remember just what you saw out of the window, but you don't even remember what you were dressing or whatever. So just the vision of what you've seen. throughout the window or you just remember there was a bird

and that's the shot you know like there's just like a bird flying or you remember that something was just like the breeze of how cold it was and then the camera is just like making that movement of like what the wind would do you know I said I feel like for his adult life

we had so much freedom so inside our our own rule of, okay, the camera can be doing anything, depending on what the scene is about. We're not going to stick to, okay, we're not supposed to move the camera on that. It could actually be anything. The only thing we decided to save was Teddy Cam. We wanted to save Steadicam for when he's older. But besides that, we could basically do anything. And then when, yeah, when he's older, we decided to, okay, let's just for the last like 10 minutes of the movie,

let's use stedicam here in some shots because we wanted to have the same fluidity that his adult life, like the biggest chance of his life had, but in a softer way, especially after he reconciles with everything and like it's not necessarily that that urge and that software is not urgent, is not sharp as some of the stuff like sharp. It's kind of softer. It's like you, you, he brain here, but I feel like in general, you maybe assimilated things in your life better. You're dealing better with with the life things in your life. So made sense to have a softer, precise, or kind of fluid at the same time move.

So yeah, and then I don't even know why we started talking about that. So I don't even know how to finish that thought. But yeah, I feel like we didn't find those instincts much because they kind of just worked when we were there. Yeah. You know, I do got to say there is one frame that I want framed. And it's when he's watching the TV with the lady that like reflection shot. Yeah. I want to print to that.

I want to print this big. I just, the light's perfect. The art, the production design's perfect. Like it's just an insane moment as well. Not insane like crazy, but just like,

it's such a poignant that that really seared into my eyes. That was a good one. Yeah. I have that too. Yeah. The, you, you've done a lot of like,

commercial, like you did like Nike commercials and stuff or like Lika and stuff, right? Yeah. Yeah, I, no, sorry, well, what was the question? Oh, I was just going to say, like, what type of knowledge from those type of gigs, which are, you know, tend to be very highly, I don't know what, you know, which commercials you shot for them, but like, um, those tend to be very like, you know,

client needs this, has to be shot that, you know, it's very, it's serving a purpose in, in a very literal sense. What type of knowledge do you gain from those gigs that you take in? into your narrative career. A lot. I feel like I started with commercials. I mean, I started with like short films and shitty music videos for my friends,

but after that, I started with commercials basically because that was the first place that opened the doors for me. And which again, really shitty and small commercials. But I feel like there's something so important I learned with commercials, which is first of all, how to again, choose what is important, how to tell a story fast somehow. You know, like, you need like, oh, it's just like, a lot of them are 30 seconds or even less, you know, so you really need to be precise on what to shoot.

and make the decisions on coverage and stuff like that in a way that I feel like I still tend to do on movies. You know, like, I don't know, like, do we need 200 shots here? Like, do we want to concentrate on 200 shots to get coverage and cover our asses for later? Or do we want to make the choices now and choose ourselves? What, like, you know, like, I don't think it's, it's, uh, not smart to cover us out.

I mean, if you want to do it, do it. But I feel like it's also part of our job to make the choices when you were shooting the thing. And that way you can create a language that actually works throughout the movie in a way that like everything makes sense. And I feel like there's something so good about working on how, I mean, I'll work on whatever gives you the opportunity to try things,

but I feel like commercials usually have more money and budget that allows you to try things, tools, equipment, that I don't know when I would have had the opportunity if it wasn't because of commercials. Like, I mean, to give you one example, because I talked about that the other day, we have very little lighting in this movie, right? 99% of the movies, it's natural light or practical lives or fire, etc. We had like two instances where we used light, basically.

One is one of the fires that we later changed in the effects for the forest fire. And the other one is like every time you are on those dreams, we wanted to have that feeling that light passed through them like it is the, the highlight of the train passing through. And we couldn't obviously have a train moving past their house. So, okay, we need to lie at that one. But we also wanted it to feel like, oh, it is the train, but it's not. It's almost like a presage of the future.

It's like it is something that comes from somewhere and has this quality of light passing through them, but not necessarily. a train. And then we decided to, that we wanted to have this drone with a light, so a drone basically with big light passing through that would give us that movement on a good speed. When you are inside the house that goes throughout the windows, but also when there's a shot that they are like in the forest and the light just passed through them and that kind of stuff.

And it is a kind of expensive piece of equipment to have there to test it and to see if that works or not. I had used the drone with a light for a commercial before. So I knew what that would give me just because also I was 100% sure that I should fight for it. If it was something that was completely blurry in my mind, I have no idea how is that going to work. is that going to be worth it? And then you're going to go there and fight with the producers not because they're mean, just because they don't have money for everything, right? So you're fighting in a good way.

I'm going to have to fight producers here to get these in the middle, like this is out of our budget. We're not budget for drone with a light. But I know it's important. And then you fight for it and then suddenly you realize it doesn't really work. You know, like it puts you on a spot. But if you had the opportunity to fight for it. it before, to work with it before and to know what that gives you, then you are 100% sure what that gives you and then you can actually fight. So the only reason I fought a lot

for that is because I knew exactly what it would be because I had worked with it before. So I feel like commercials are also amazing because of that. It gives you the opportunity to try things in a less, constraint environment. No, no, no, no, no, no, no I'm saying. But in a, like, what I'm saying is like, in a commercial, usually, uh, what I'm just saying is usually you have more money than

doing an indie movie, you know? So it's just like you are not as constrained necessarily budget wise to make those choices on a commercial that then necessarily you're going to be on a movie. You need to be much more precise on what light you want to have what camera, what lenses, whatever, because everything is like counted to a nickel, you know, like or a diamond. You know, it's, it's one of those things that I always kind of am,

I don't feel bad for people who make TV shows because, you know, what a privilege. But a lot of times, you know, when I've talked to people who've worked on whatever, eight seasons of something and they're just like, yeah, you know, that's why we're still shooting. on the Veracam, you know? It's like, because they can't change it. You know, they're like the everyone knows everything.

Let's not, let's not get crazy, you know? Yeah. Which is also interesting. Like I feel like people get, I mean, everybody, myself, we get used to things, right? And it's hard to get out of our comfort zones. And I feel like putting ourselves in those situations where we need to get out of the comfort zone is also important and I feel like

please producers don't listen to that but I feel like whenever you don't have what you need what you imagine that you wanted it also encourages you to think about maybe a better solution you know like then the first one you thought just because felt was the right one

first and then sell if you don't have the money to have whatever you wanted whatever and then you need to think about something else. I usually think that later when I watch it, I was like, oh, thank God we didn't have that. This is better, you know? So I feel like it's something I'm trying to learn to, which is like be open to those things, you know,

to whenever you're... Forced inspiration. Also that, yeah. Well, and it's like, that's the other thing too is, uh, the audience is like a fincher quote, but the audience knows you can do anything. So it's what you don't do that tends to inform what you're saying.

And I think that also applies to, you know, there's so many shows out there, so movies, television, whatever, even on YouTube, whatever, that is really expertly shot. But if you follow the rules of what a quote unquote perfect image looks like, that can get boring. But if you're forced to not do that, you know, you didn't have the lighting package. You had the wrong camera or whatever. Didn't have the location.

It's raining. Who knows? Yeah. But you're still able to achieve the result you wanted. That then looks, you know, everyone always talks about, you know, especially on comedies, like, oh, no, the best scene in the film was improv. You know, it's that kind of stuff where it's like the spontaneity always tends to bring, hopefully. Good good stuff. But that's why like it's something we did on train dreams and and I always

up for it, which is if you can allow yourself the chance also to do, I mean, especially with the actors like, okay, get what that was supposed to be. You know, like, okay, let's shoot that scene and okay, we are not all happy now and let's just like see what happens if we just do one version of here where everybody is. improvising, you know. Do your thing. Actors do your things. I would just follow with the camera or, you know, whatever

and see what happens. And a lot of the times those are takes that end up in the movie, you know? And I remember I shot something like five years ago, a series. And

it was really cool what we did, like the director decided. and we love that idea of like whenever we did a scene and there was a lot of dialogue, a lot of a period, 15th century and a lot of a lot of dialogue. And whenever we ended up the scene, we would do one version in one of the shots

of the same scene without anyone saying anything. Just so just actors like moving around and behaving and intentions and whatever like they were saying. lines and back and forth, whatever. And it was just so cool to do that actually because then everybody was just reacting on like, okay, this is, and even for me, like we were doing a lot of handheld camera at that show. And I was just like following them already knowing because you did a few takes so you know already what the scene is and what they are feeling, et cetera.

And it was a cool experience actually. And it's, it's amazing on how many of those takes were stronger, you know, and all the lines that they were supposed to say. Well, and it kind of goes back to what you were saying earlier about, you know, only having what's in the frame that's necessary and leaving out what's not or intentionally doing stuff. Not like leaving out dialogue intentionally is a interesting way.

And also, I think it challenges the, not even in a bad way, like challenge sounds kind of whatever, but anything you can do to get the audience to lean in and pay more attention. You know, I know there's, certain TV shows or whatever have sort of a, this is hearsay, but you know, I've seen it where they have like a mandate of like,

hey, the dialogue needs to be incredibly expisional because they expect that people are watching, you know, scrolling on their phone while they're watching it. So anything you can get them to stop doing that. Oh, did the sound stop? Oh, no, they're just not talking.

Now they're locked in. Yeah. Actually, that brings up a, a good question because my friend Greg shout out to Greg, he wanted to know about sort of the input that Netflix had on this show. Pretty much

everyone I've ever asked this has had pretty much the same answer, whether it be Netflix or Apple or whoever, but you know, obviously you're shooting 3-2 you know, maybe more contrasty

and more not dark, but, but it doesn't look like a lot of other things that are online. And even your use of shutter speed, you know, depending on the scene. Did that throw up any red flags at Netflix? Or were they very pretty much just like your hands off? We did it independently. Netflix bought the movie after the movie was made. And they were amazing actually because they also didn't want to change.

the movie out. They bought it because they loved it and trusted what we had. And we didn't have to regrade or we do anything. We didn't have to do a 16 by 9 version or anything like that. You know, so it was just like all there from from the beginning. That's cool. Yeah, that I did want to, I know you've talked about it, but I just kind of want to get it on the record about the shutter speed thing. Yeah. You were doing that from what I read, you were doing that for like, daytime would just be a little bit sharper, like nighttime would be a little more flowy. Is that kind of the main? There is a few things.

I feel like two reasons. The first one being to try to be as not realistic as possible and more realistic, I feel like for me, I always have a feeling that during the day because you have more light and also because later. I read about it, but you basically, your eyes are processing at a higher frame rate, basically. So everything is sharper. Nothing is really blurred when you like on bright daylight, right? But then when you are a night, you kind of like a slower frame rate somehow and things get a bit more blurred. That's how the human eye works somehow. And that's how I perceive things somehow.

and I wanted to bring this feeling back to, okay, this is almost like life and naturally sick in a way. But also then we have things where like that scene with Gladys on fire, where then we're shooting with a 360 shutter, 356 and four frames per second, which is very, very blurred. So we wanted those contrast on memories and also going back to the memory lane of, the initial thought of like finding that box full of pictures and trying to put those pictures together to figure out who that person was. So that that choice of the still pictures that made us to the three two aspect ratio. And so that that photographic feeling was behind a lot of our choices from aspect ratio to

to the shutter in the way we framed it. And the same thing with the shutter, you know, like on steel images, still photographs, there's so many different types of shutters throughout things, you know, a lot of steels are blurred. A lot of steels are really sharp. And we want it also to have that feeling

when you're watching the movie of different shutters. But that also goes back to something that, like, Honestly, I feel like I missed the class where teachers say that you're not supposed to touch your shudder. So I was doing that instinctively and wrongly in the beginning of my career, depending on what it felt for me about the scene and that perception I had about how our eyes work depending on the day. And then I learned also that people tend to have different kind of shutters beats. Some people have really sharper shutters and some people have it more blurred and etc. But I didn't know any of that back then. It was just me not knowing having no idea that was a rule.

And then at some point I learned the rule and I was okay. And then I started doing the role and following the rule. And I was like, this doesn't feel right to me. You know, this is not how I see the word myself. This doesn't feel naturalistic. And also, why can I use that tool narratively to help a story as I use any of the other things, you know, as I use my T-stalk to show the audience more of the background or less or, you know, defocus it or not or how I use lighting or whatever? why the shutter cannot be one of those tools to tell things to the audience. So it was something that like I started doing because I had no idea.

And then I stopped doing it and then I was like, okay, maybe I should go back to that. It was interesting. And I feel like on this movie, the reason we were changing it a lot was because of the things we wanted to perceive, the photographic feeling. it, but also the perception of the human eye bit. Yeah. Well, that makes total sense, too. I love the adherence to the idea of it being like a living photograph.

It's very cool. And, yeah, I just like it. It does, it is interesting. I think the rule of the 180 degree shot, you know, I was just looking at Aton 16 millimeter cameras and just look, you know, going down through the spec sheet, it took them a while before they were even. made without a 180 degree shuttered.

So my assumption is that everyone just said that that rule came around because there wasn't an option. So when digital came out, they were like, oh, now there's an option. Well, back in the day, we always did 180. So that's the rule now. You know, with the advent of digital, there came to rule.

Well, yeah, the rule is basically just because what people are used to, right? Like, it's because how you perceive movies, because that's what you used to see, you go to a movie, that's what your mind is used to see. So whenever you see something that you're not used to see on a theater, you get kind of, okay, well, what am I seeing? But not because necessarily that feels more realistic. It's just like something that gets imprinted in your mind

as what this is supposed to look like, which is funny because just thought about something that the other day I got a message from, one gaffer saying like that I work with and he was saying like oh I love the movie it's great and I love everything I just want to give you one note if you don't mind I was yeah sure of course no and I'm always happy to like I feel like it's important to take the notes and it was like I don't think you guys got the right clicker on the firelights in the in the um dinner scenes between

Joe and Felicia and I was like I don't know what to say there was just real fire so I mean we need to complain with God or whoever and I feel like there's something about like we are so used to watch

the flicker in the movies that fire gives that it's made from like sky panel effect of the fire whatever you know all the tools that like that in our brain that's what the fire light do and how it behaves and that's the real flicker of fire. So we more, we trust more what we saw in the movies than what we see in our fireplace,

in our candles and, you know, so it's just like we, and I think that's also the amazing part of movies, right? That kind of like becomes reality for people. But it's just so funny that we, this, the, the, what we see in the movie is suddenly a few, more right than the actual reality, which is amazing and then it's like explosions. Exactly. You know, like a grenade goes off and it's like this big fire and then you see a real

grenade and you're like, and no. Yeah. In space, no, no, no sound in Star Wars. Like, well, what doesn't make any sense? Yeah. I did want to ask before I let you go about just the color grade, because I know obviously there's a lot of like comparisons to Malik and the Revenant or whatever but I know like for the Revenant you know a lot of that there was a million

windows on that film you know just the colorist was just really earning their earning their hourly what was the grading process like for you for this film? We didn't have many windows to be honest almost none

I worked with Sergio Pasqualeino which is a long time collaborator he's also from Brazil and I try to work with him in all projects I do just because I honestly think he's the best and

that's obviously personal taste right but I always feel like he brings something to all projects that it's really respectful to what we shot, not trying to impose a look to things and really like watching what was shot in a way that I like and because we've been working together for so long, so there is like a connection already that it's easier and we are we don't spend time trying

to see like if there's something that he does that I think is shady I will say like this shitty and the other way around he's going to tell me like I think you messed up on this scene so let's see how we save it you know I'll fix this for you yeah yeah yeah and it's all it's good because then you don't you know wasting time you know like it's direct and there's a lot of things that I'm myself like saying I think this shady I hated it I don't I'm not happy with it and he's like what happened when you were shooting the scene and then I tell him something very traumatic that happened on that day and he was like it's fine don't worry

the scene is good. It's just you with the memory of how I was shooting it. So don't worry. And I'm okay, cool. Now I can relax. So I feel like having someone like that that you can actually trust. I know he's never going to tell me that he thinks something is good if it's not. And the other way around, you know, so we're always going to be pushing for more.

And he is, I mean, going back to the question in the windows, he's a master on on enhancing what I was actually shot in a way that it's brilliant, but not necessarily imposing a look, but also elevating it in a way that, like, I always say that, like, his half of my job is actually him doing it, you know, because he brings things to life in a way that is brilliant. I never shoot with a lot whenever shooting digitally. I'm always just using the regular 7-09 on the camera and I like to keep it away because of one-on, if I don't feel like, I feel like Lutz have tend to distract me from what I'm actually shooting, you know, and not really know what I'm shooting.

And I think when I, when I'm shooting with 7-09, I find more to be happy on set with things. And that makes it easier later because if it's already okay on the 7-09, then I'm fine, you know, like it's not, it's not because. the Ludd made it better or anything like that. So we always kind of watch the 7-09 together. We always go back to, okay, what did we shoot? And then we come, we start from that, basically.

You know, sometimes he even just going to grade something to get to the Lut, the 7-09, basically. And then start from there, you know? And yeah, he's a fucking genius. He did amazing movies like City of God and stuff. long before I even started working with this. He also did jockey with Clint, and Clint also loved the process and his work.

So yeah, it's kind of easy. And nowadays, because of the distance he's still in Brazil, all the movies we've been doing, we do almost everything remotely, you know, just like he does his things and we do sessions together online. Sometimes he's just doing things and sending me stuff on WhatsApp and I send him back and then he sends me the resolve project and I do things myself and I send him back to him and you know like it's really open in a way that it's

it's again I feel like it's the beauty of collaborating again and again with the same people you develop really good relationships that it's not only people pushing each other but also not spending time with bullshit yeah that actually brings up something that I'm curious about, which is I do freelance coloring on the side because I spent so much time coloring my own stuff that like sometimes my friend need, my friends need a cheaper option. But that remote collaborative workflow is, you know, I'm just in my office at my house. So, you know, if whenever there's like, you know, someone fancy, they're like, oh, just come by your office and we can look at it together. I'm always like, ah. Yeah. No. So what, besides like sharing project files and stuff, are you guys using like Frame I.O?

Or are you doing like live, what's, live? Evercast or something like that? What is it? It's one of those things that allow me to see him live working on it. What do we do a lot of things just like on WhatsApp and sending steals. And I would just like mark stuff that I don't like on WhatsApp or whatever. And I don't like that.

I send him back. Then he sends me a steal. then he will send me exports because then I like to have the exports because I like to see them in different screens basically because I feel like it is great to be on a very calibrated monitor and see

and everything looks great but then no one on earth is going to watch it that way you know like unfortunately so everybody is going to watch on their shitty TVs and on a phone and on a projector that is

really muddy and the, that bulb is like 20 years old. And you never know. So I like to watch in different screens to see if it's all acceptable. You know, like it doesn't matter. You're never going to be happy 100% about it on all the screens because they're all going to be different. But to say, okay, this is acceptable, this acceptable, this acceptable is not, it's a little darker than I intended on this one.

but on this one is just a bit brighter, so that's a good midterm. So I like those exports because of that to be able to watch in different stuff. It's the old music producer trick of, you know, you spend all day mixing in the studio and then you take the CD out, put it in your car, drive around the block.

And it's true, like I make sure I watch it on my phone because I really think it's just like, if it's working here, then we're good. You know, like if it's problematic here, let's go back to it and let's see how to fix it. You know, as funny is, I think it was Lark and Cyple who told me this,

but apparently when they were doing, I could be mixing people up, but I think he was saying when they were doing everything everywhere, maybe it was beef or something, they would send clips to people, but they had to send them on a calibrated iPad because apparently MacBooks, specifically MacBooks,

like the screen is too red. So they'd constantly be getting notes back about like, oh, the skin's really reddy. Skin sucks. And they're like, no, it's your MacBook. And I'm so shocked that it's like that everyone's got one of those.

What do you mean the screens? Because obviously they're going to make it look pretty versus accurate. But, yeah. Yeah, I got a calibrated. You should see the nonsense going to three screens and, you know, one really big LG one. Well, like I said, man, it's a phenomenal film and it's going to sit with me for a while. So that's probably the best compliment I can give you beyond it.

It looked really pretty. That's cool. Thank you very much. I'm glad you liked it and sorry you watched it. In the morning, yeah. I think you're supposed to watch it in the end of the afternoon, you know, so you have the time to, like, absorb it. A hundred percent, but also I, it's happened to me a bunch of times where like, I'll go to see a screening. You know, I'll get sent somewhere to go watch the screen for it, like press screen.

And then I don't interview him for like a week. A while, yeah. And then I'm just having to go off my notes and I'm like, that sucks. Like I always try to get like as close up to the end up. I guess close up to the interview as I can, so it's right in my mind. But sometimes you get a, you get one where you're like, oh, oh, shit. Well, enjoy all the rest of the yapping you got to do. I'll be in touch.

Thank you very much. It was a pleasure. Yeah, good everybody. Cheers. Frame and reference is an Albot production, produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so by going to frame and refpod.com clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated.

And as always, thanks for listening.