Frame & Reference Podcast - 228: "Eternity" Cinematographer Ruairi O'Brien, ISC BSC

Episode Date: February 5, 2026

Today I have the absolutely effervescent Ruairí O'Brien on to talk about Eternity, a film that I came out of the theater absolutely in love with. If you haven't seen it yet and you love feeling good and having a solid laugh, you MUST cue it up immediately. Or put it in your queue. Either works. Enjoy!(as a quick note, Ruairi and I were having some lag issues during our chat so sometimes we end up stepping over each other trying to talk. Sorry about that!)► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠F&R Online ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Support F&R⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Watch on YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Produced by Kenny McMillan► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Hello and welcome to this episode 228 of Frame and Reference. You're about to drop into a conversation between me, Kenny McMillan, and my guest Rory O'Brien, DP of Eternity. Enjoy. There was a funny thing, so I was two years behind Robbie Ryan in college. And Robin moved to London. Oh, yeah, I just had him on. He's great.

Yeah, yeah, he's great. It's wonderful. So I'm two years behind Robbie in college. He moved to London. His career takes off. Brilliant. And while I was in a... Ireland because there's two years behind him. There's lots of like, when we were both doing shorts,

it was like, we couldn't get Robbie. Are you available? I became the cheap Robbie Ryan. And then I moved to London. It was like, oh, you're Irish. Do you know, Robbie Ryan? I'm like, yeah, yeah, I know, Robbie. And it kind of dogged me for years. And then it sort of went to it. I built my own career. And then I was joining a local cinema. You get the membership for the year. And the guy said, name I said, Rory O'Brien. He goes, Robbie Ryan. I'm not, I'm not, Bobby Ryan. I was just reading a bunch of stuff about people asking how to start their careers. And it is funny how you kind of just have to do it yourself.

And even something as innocuous as the place you're from or the college you went to can somehow help or interfere with it. Like there's no, there's no answer. No. And everyone goes in their own path because, you know, you come out of film school. And there are people who are ahead of me, he's career taking off. And I was like, well, why aren't you getting me on board? And it's like you, it took you while to realize DPs don't hire other DPs when you're doing like a

commercial or a music video. It's like, it's a lonely path you have to forge for a while. Yeah. That was such a hard lesson to learn. Not only do DP's not other higher. You're like, well, can't I just AC for you? And they're like, no, I'm going to get an AC. What are you talking about?

Yeah. Like, it's not like, you don't know how to do it. You have that weird mental. Yeah. Do you have a focus mode? No. Yeah. I still, like, I don't know how to put a camera together.

I worked with a second AC. And he used to say, in the morning, be building the camera, I'll be like, no, hands off. We'll give it to you when it's ready. You'll only break it. You know, as someone who like basically had to learn everything so I could do it myself so that I could make it look like I knew what I was doing, there was a lot of manufactured skill at the beginning.

I really got excited when I got to start like letting someone. else build the camera. I'm letting someone else set up the lights. Oh my God. What a dream. I don't find excitement in doing it myself anymore. No, the other side of it is I got a job. I was asked to go to Rwanda for an interview for a documentary for like three days.

And little tiny things. I went into this rental house for work at 24-7. I said, can you give me any camera, whatever you've got? We'll give you in a mirror, put a zoom lens on, build a whole thing, little package you'll basically all go in a bag. And I said, look, because I'm not. in the ACA. Like, I know the battery goes on the back, the lens goes in the front, but what else we need to know? I'm

downloading stuff or whatever. They took me through, and the thing of my mind is, you know, there's the power button you got a hold in for five seconds, turned off and all that. So I get in the plane, go to Rwanda, it's a problem with the batteries, a bit of stress, get to the hotel, and at night we have dinner, and I go, just check the camera to be sure.

Hold the button in, and the camera turns on and off. Try it again, camera's one power up. And it's now midnight in Rwanda. And there's no one to call in Rwanda. and no one's awake in the UK. I'm trying to, who's awake? Well, Australia will be. I'm trying to call Australia.

I can't get a line out. I try to call America, like Panavision, L.A. Because, you know, in the end, my friend Graham, who read up with the camera, I get him at 7.30 the morning. I've emailed the producer, said it may be a problem with the camera. And they've already told me that I know the cameras in Rwanda available. Graham's like, well, what are you doing? Well, it's here in front of me.

He said, okay, hold the button. I'm holding you for five seconds. He doesn't know, that's it turn it off. Turn on you hold him for one second. You're an idiot. I'm like, oh, okay. So I turned to breakfast with no sleep saying, the camera's fine.

I'm not fine, but the camera's fine. Yeah. I've been doing a lot of doc myself more than anything recently. And very quickly learned how many backups I should have of everything. Because I'm also doing, this is the other side of the coin of like, I get to hand off things. Now, the documentaries, I have to do everything again. So it's like, how many ways can I record audio?

Like, I have a spreadsheet. Like, if a camera goes down, what can I do? If I forget media, SD cards are so small. You know, you just, thank God this thing exists, you know, this little pelquet. But even this is, you can lose it. But, yeah, how many ways can I record audio? How many ways can I light something? How many ways can I record something?

And then like the, what's it called, the pay system primary, auxiliary contingency, emergency? Wow. So I have four options. And emergency is iPhone for all of them. Yeah. It's good enough now. Hey, listen, it absolutely is. It's amazing.

That whole thing. I remember doing documentaries that we were in, Australia, with a little Sony, PD-150. I was doing camera and sound. and we get to the middle of nowhere and the sound wasn't working and couldn't hear anything on the cans and the director of look I don't know

it's the cans himself or it's the camera but we're going to do the camera he went rural Australia we're here for three days there's no other camera but what if we don't understand are you seeing the little levels

thing up and down? Yeah so you got pictures yeah we said well all about this what about listen with your ears we're in the middle of nowhere

so if you were a dog barking we'll stop if you're playing over otherwise it's going to be fine So that's what we just did. Yeah. Did it turn out okay? It was fine, yeah.

Because again, you're in middle of nowhere. So if you don't really hear something, it's fine. It's not like shooting on. I was going to say, if you hear an airplane, it's probably not, they're probably coming for you. Exactly. Yeah. To rescue you because it's the middle of nowhere.

Yeah. When did you, because you used to do commercials, right? No, the total opposite. I could never, ever, ever crack commercials. And I tried. I called, I begged. Bad research. It's not right.

No, commercials is like a locked door. And then I got asked to do a short about three years ago for this young director and the commercials company were producing something for her. And they got me into Meet her and I was like, look, this is great. I'd love to work with you and with her. But her regular DP is really good. Like, I know he hasn't done movies in long form, but he's good. So, like, I just want to be imposing anyone.

No, no, you're great. He's a commercial guy. You're a drama guy. I think about you drama guys is you don't make things look very good. Then they sort of backpedaled. I'm like, oh, you want to look not very good. I don't know what that meant. Not too or something.

But so, yeah, commercials have really alluded to me. And I would love to. I love the idea of, you know, one week you're doing black and white. Next week you're doing high speed. The next week you're doing landscapes. And then. You know what it was is my brain combined. reading about some like two and a half page one hour shoot you did with fast pacedness

and then my and then I went to commercials. Yeah, we had to think with Jim Dua. We had them for an hour and it was supposed to be in a crashing car and it was an ad for a play he was in. It was great fun actually. It was like basically everything said to them was, we'll need a big studio to shoot this in. We got like a little tiny box like someone's living room.

We did this, don't have it either. And actually just I was really happy how it turned out in the end. But I think, you know, I quite like being challenged by things going wrong. I've said this before. I don't love when things go wrong, but I do love when your choices become limited. And everyone's, like, if your choices become limited and you're the only one who knows, you look like a failure. But if everyone knows that you don't have a choice, then it's like, well, decision's got a lot easier. He's a hero.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just love all that, like, limitations just give you creativity. I did a film recently in Ireland. and like the second scene is a guy in a military helicopter in the 80s and the producers are like, we can't get a helicopter. There's only one period helicopter, it's in a museum, it's going to take too long to get there, it's going to wreck the schedule.

Can we make it a Jeep or something? And the director's going, no, like, the Jeep has no presence or drama. It's got to be a helicopter. Anyway, in the end, I was like, can we get a van, get like a Mercedes van, strip it out, put some seats, he put a green screen outside. Like a helicopter is just a box, right? We opened the side door. So that's what we did.

And suddenly this thing was going to come. I don't know, like 10 grand, cost 500. Oh, because the van has a door on either side. You could, that's great. It's really simple, you know. Bunch you guys in uniform, problem solved. I'm like much more into those really simple. Like, I love when it feels like you're playing in the garden

with your nine-year-old friends making a tree house. That's much more fun than the big logistical stuff. Yeah, did you, when you were in like film school and stuff, Were you also the type of person that was like learning everything? Or did you narrow in on cinematography, like offer it? I came to film school to be a screenwriter. That was it. I was what I was going to do.

And this other student did I call James Mayther. I'll interview up one day. Hang on, hold this, like, do this, do that. Now go over there. And I just revealed it to me. Like, this is much more exciting. And I'm like, yeah, this is great. Literally, it was like a complete U-turn.

Yeah, so I kind of an accidental DP. And then I met up with this guy James Mayer, a recent end in a few years. And we sat down for coffee and he just said to me, haven't we got the best job in the world? And he's still really passionate about 30 years later. It's great. Yeah. How are you keeping, I don't know about how it is over there, but it's a little dire in Los Angeles right now. Are you keeping that passion or is it seeming?

It's funny. I shot eternity. I'm like, okay, I've arrived. really the scripts now I'm ready tumbleweens I had a really slow like eight months and then I did a small show in Arden

with a friend of mine they did a movie in Belfast and now it's kind of picking up again but like 2024 was not the year or 2025 it was not the year I expected it to be it was humbling but it's you know

Jay McCon got the Oscar for the Godfather and they didn't work for five years I always wonder about how the like you do something big. Like obviously, you know, you work at, you rise to the level that you're competent, right? And then at some point you break through that ceiling.

And then the question becomes, do the people who you used to work for not want to hire you because now they think you're too expensive? Yeah. And the people up there think you're too cheap or what's, you know, that's such a weird little fuzzy area to navigate that I have not reached. Well, it's funny because, yeah. You know, you've got your age and saying, well, they're only offering this much and you're worth more. You're like, sure, but the guys you should be paying more having a cold this week.

And, you know, yeah. And also, I just like shooting. Like, I would rather shoot something great for no money. Obviously, you know, there's bills to pay, but I just want to do great stuff. Like when the eternity script came, I read it and he said to David, I will turn down everything that comes along to do this. And every job that came in, I was like, it's got to take him with David. I was like, I've been offered a six-month job for New York. Disney. David,

should I turn it down? He's like, take the job. Yeah. And then last year, before we made it, I was up for a few jobs and I kind of did these lack-closure interviews. I think because I just knew I wasn't really, you know, I was excited for eternity and everything else's second best. So I was just hanging on for it to start.

Yeah. Like I said, man, like I went in basically cold. and left it just like so happy and like you know how to had a roller coaster of emotions it didn't end where I thought it was going to end which I was like oh we get bonus time we get we're going into overtime this is cool you know it's shot well like I can't imagine what being handed us uh kind of a not even a diamond in the rough just like a diamond script where you're like oh this is actually because the idea is so simple and then the execution is phenomenal. Yeah, and it's interesting because, you know, you get it and you could take it in so many different directions. But I'd work the day before. I'm like, I know his films always just look and feel, well, the two we've done just feel really effortless. Like, I think most people will not notice my work. They'd be like, oh, they just happened to be in a nice place. Oh, the light was nice that day. Like, I always think the best cinematography looks lucky. It doesn't look skillful. You know, like, oh,

they were, those guys just happened to be fishing. in that stream as the sun went down. You know? So, there's a lot of it before me. We just knew, with David, I can be patient. You know, just for this scene, we can just do it this way. And he's not going to demand a ridiculous amount of shots that are impossible. So, yeah, it was great.

Yeah. Yeah. Are you guys like heavy, you know, it's like there's two types of people. There's shot listers and storyboarders. Or I guess the magical third of, of, uh, very acroyd, which is just like show up and figure it out. But, um, it well, it's funny. Like, our initial conversations weren't about photography.

It was like the tone of the story. And I was like, is this a Billy Wilder film? Yes, it is. Okay, great. And we very gradually honed in on things. And then we went to Vancouver. When I got there, the designer's already on board. So she'd done lots of work.

That was a Zazu Myers. Lesby Myers. He's terrific, you know. And, but like, we, we didn't storyboard that much. And the whole archive tunnel sequence where they go in and be seen their memories. For one who hasn't seen it like you'd be going in and relive your past by watching plays of your own life was weirdly logistical because the stand-ins had to wear the actress costumes and you can't take costume of one person per another. Like the wedding just to be dried cleaned. So suddenly like a two-shot scene has to be shot in two different days and all that kind of stuff. So that was kind of the trickiest thing, even though it's just people standing looking at each other.

We had to kind of storyboard that whole thing out. I don't think there were any of the storyboards apart from the FX stuff. Yeah, how much, you know, so the only problem would be going into watch that movie without consciously, well, this is a problem in a gift, without consciously knowing I was going to interview, is I wasn't sitting there taking notes, which kind of sucks because sometimes I go see a movie and I just want to enjoy it. And I have to stop myself from getting invested in the film so I can focus on the camera work, which is like the opposite of what you're supposed to do.

Totally. So my memory of the camera work and all that is fuzzy. But there was, it wasn't entirely a, obviously you had like paintouts, or not paintouts, but set extensions and stuff. There were some set extensions and that was it. And really, and then there's like a thing where, well, Telericks over a balcony and there's a guy being tackled nine floors below. Right.

Yeah. You know, set extensiony stuff. but, you know, really simple, which meant, like, the VFX in the film are seamless for the most part, because they can just concentrate and doing very straightforward stuff. And, you know, there's very little tricky stuff in it, like the photography is not flashy. I'm seeing one line saying, oh, the grade is great and the design is great, and they're not talking about photography. I'm kind of pleased. I don't want, I just wanted to be, like, you know, just another thread in the fabric.

Yeah, as someone who does, you know, I've said a handful of times on this podcast that I need to get off the internet because, as you know, the cinematography subreddit sometimes is like banging your head against a nail. How do you, when you see like, you probably see more than most reports on your work because you have that proximity to Reddit. Like, do you, is that a healthy relationship or do you go like, ah, we're not on Reddit this month? I've never, I haven't really looked on Reddit to see what they, like, I don't think about cinematography. I saw some comments in the film generally, but I looked on letterboxed. Oh, sure. But it's really interesting because the responses are incredibly emotional. People are saying, I just cried and they laughed and I cried some more, which is great.

That's what you want. Like, for me, the magic of cinema is not the spaceships. Like, the most amazing thing. I've seen in the cinema is kind of probably E.T. Because grown men cry over lump of latex. We all know it's latex. We still all cry. And that's the thing you're trying to achieve, really.

Yeah. I definitely, I got some free moisturizer in the film for sure. Well, it's funny. I brought one of my best friends and we started off together 25 years ago making films. And weirdly, our dads do each other. They're both actors. And when I asked my dad, he's like, we had our first play together. there. And they put, not only left, they play the same character, they played two halves of the

same giant. So this guy and I worked kind of in this shared history, this, you know, shared careers. And I brought into the movie last week. I turned to the end and he's just like, like, big tears running down his face and he couldn't speak. He said to me after he says, because your film's so moving. We said it's also really moving because I know how hard is to make a good movie. It's like a really great movie. That's like the highest compliment. Yeah. You know, the, the thing that I find great is speaking of like the cinematography being kind of invisible is you do just get to let the the the the actors act and um yeah fucking i love i loved uh divine joy randolph in the holdovers yeah her back i was like like because again i didn't really know anything about the film she

pops out and i wait just like she is very excited to see her she is great and it's funny because when you're shooting her first three takes she's warming up and then take four it's like she suddenly comes alive, it's amazing. It's like, after a while you're like, you're just waiting because, you know, she's just going to use a few to kind of get her feet wet and then she comes alive and she's so good and every take is different and it gets better and better. But you can just hear her all day, you know?

Yeah. But be fair, I think all the performers are really good. Oh, yeah. I think Elizabeth Olson is phenomenal. She kind of holds the whole film. And it's funny, like, I'm not really good. good on actors who actors are because I have no control over. It's obviously producers and directors are very excited.

You get this person and that person. And when I told my agent Amber who's in the film, her exact words were, holy shit. I was like, are they big. She does, you don't know who they are. I don't think I know who they. But they were like, every day.

It's great. You just watch them do their thing. I'm like, I always think the measure of a great actor is what they can do with a really sort of conventional, boring line, you know? and people guys anything to do they'll just make it interesting. There is a version that film with lesser actors

that becomes very hallmarky and very twee. Yes. Well, and so that's kind of that's actually perfect where I was kind of headed initially was because you're kind of put in a interesting problem

situation as a DP because a lot of this film, majority of this film, takes place in an artificial no sun, you know, room. Yeah. Yeah. So how do you did that, when that, I am, tell me, did that make it harder to lean into the

emotion of the scene without being able to light emotionally or was it kind of like a, hey, we just get to place cameras because it's all over it. Yeah. Well, it was like. And how do you keep it from looking artificial too, because that's the other thing. It has to look artificial enough to make sense for the, where they are. but not enough that it looks fake. Like in the supermarket.

Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, it was hard. I mean, I would have loved to have a bit more kind of control with all that. But, you know, there's a schedule to hit. You're basically late in a set the size of a football stadium. Like, I went in. Also, the ceiling in that studio is only like 36 feet high. So basically the lights are sitting on the set.

So when I first heard about it, I'm like, this isn't going to work. I'm like, well, it's up to you to make it work. So yeah, it's tricky. But, you know, you put a very soft top light in and you just fill and contrast as you go. What's weird is, the hardest thing was there's a red carpet on that floor and you get all those red, angry fill in those faces.

So I was tough to move a bit of white sheet around just to try and manage that. Yeah. Literally they'd be like, you know, nice healthy skin tone from above. And then there's like kind of angry beetwood complexion underneath. You know, it is unfortunate because now you just made me think of some. Recently, there's been a lot of, again, there's an internet talk.

But I want, you know what? Sorry, too many thoughts at once. A lot of people, I've seen a lot of folks talking about this, you know, quote unquote, Netflix look or how things are too dark when too, on TikTok even. There's armchair experts talking about how oh, cinematographers are lazy now

and colorists are just, everything is done so that they can change it in post. And it's like, well, this movie was shot pretty, at least for the majority of it, pretty even like you're saying,

you know, even soft, things that people seem to not like. And yet, it looks phenomenal. And people have said it looks phenomenal. So it's like now they might be a little right if it is like if that's what's happening. Maybe there is a problem.

But you guys do it well. Yeah. I mean, I think it all depends. You know, I guess it's all down to first. As a DP, you can only be as good as the director lets you be. Right. That's something my girlfriend points out. And the color is sometimes.

Yeah. But, you know, like the colors can only work for what they receive. Right. The DP can only do what they're like to. If you're told everything is three cameras all the time and, you know, it's kind of impossible. Like one thing in this was, we were 90% single camera, which really helps. And David's good and decisive. And we're not doing, you know, 360 moves all the time. So you can go all the, like, going to come from over there and we'll have some contrast. It doesn't

always get a lot of contrast, just to feel like there's modelling on the face. So, yeah, you can do it. I think, like, we've all seen beautiful pictures that are soft and kind of even, but they're still beautiful. We've all seen really interesting contrasty pictures that still aren't pleasing to the eye because wherever their graphic quality isn't quite working or so yeah, and that whole thing with the Netflix look,

yeah, there's a look, there's always a look, isn't it? There's always like every era has a look. Yeah. Well, and also the net, I hate that people ascribe it to Netflix. I think it's just because that's where there's the most movies coming out, so people see like, my theory is that the barometer for low quality

and I don't mean that like pejorative I mean, like, low budget, you know. Yeah. It's so much higher that when you see a lot of low budget stuff that looks pretty good, good enough that you would assume it had a higher budget, you think that that's what's happening, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And then you find out someone shot this thing in 15 days and you go, wow, it actually looks phenomenal considering.

Yeah. I mean, it is one of those things that we forget, like, how far we come. Like, this whole thing that people used to look down on TV because it looked cheap. Everything on TV looks great now. There are no bad-looking shows. Yeah. No matter what about... If anything, TV's gotten way more expensive.

Yeah, but like everything looks good. Even if you're shooting crazy schedules, there's definitely an elevated standard to stuff that you didn't. You know, back in the days of things being shot in 16 mill and kind of doing a really quick transfer and still getting TV and that was it. Like, everything looks good and everything gets a proper grade pretty much. You know, I'm a big like Doctor Who fan, for instance. a handful of other British television that made its way over here in the early 2000

and learning about shooting over in the UK in adjacent areas and seeing especially a lot of that early BBC, even Monty Python or whenever they went outside, dealing with a lot of that. It's going to be overcast. Did shooting in that environment for so long, like teach you something that made, you know, turning a frown upside down, so to speak. Well, the thing about shooting in Ireland is, it's not that it's overcast, it's that it changes all the time.

Friend of my movie, I'm a film with the Serbian DP, and he said, one day he just started, like, shouting, he lost his mind. He's like, every 20 minutes, it's different weather. He's like, I come to Serbia, where I know you're like, well, it'll be sunny from April till, you know, October, and then it'll be a bit cloudy, you don't be snowy. Like, so, and what I've actually learned is,

it doesn't matter that much. I don't mean, it doesn't matter. I mean, I remember shooting a scene over two days, and we had some cloud, rain, some with wet ground, some with dry ground, and you kind of just shoot through it, and once you've cut it together,

you know, pour a bit of music over the top, grade it nicely, you get away with a huge amount, you know, so I think actually it's much harder in sunny currency to see that really, really harsh top light. Yeah. You know, that's tricky, but I guess you just take a topper over it.

But then I'm like, oh, but then you can't move the actors that much because they're stuck under the square. And you have to, at least my experience in Los Angeles on a lower budget, short or three, you know, not only can you not move them, but if you're kind of limited on your focal length, because any wider than a certain amount and you see the edge of the frame and how hot the ground is next to it, and no amount of like tree pieces will fix it. This is not a problem we ever have. Yeah. I did actually want to ask, speaking about Zazu earlier, did you, what was your collaboration with her like? Because obviously it's very colorful, saturated film. I know you guys pointed to like the graduate as being both like colorful and sort of dirty a little bit.

And I think that does help stave off that hallmark thing. But like what did you have a lot of discussions? with the production designer about what to do and like where you wanted stuff and all that. Absolutely. I mean, I try, if I can on projects to move into the designer's office. They give you like an office for the DP off to the designer.

I quite often say, I'm just going to sit beside you and I know you. And if in the art department, something that someone told me once is, you overhear a lot of stuff. Someone goes, I'm not building that set. You know what I mean? Rappellin that set.

Oh, yeah, we're not building that set. No one bothers to tell you this stuff. I'm talking to the director this week and he said if you want to know what's going on, ask the drivers. He said he was being driven to work one day and this driver says something with him not shooting a scene. He's like, what am I not shooting the scene? He goes, I've cut that scene.

The director was like, I'm the director. No one's talking about cutting the scene. I was like, oh yeah, that's gone. I wouldn't ask me. So, you know, being able to just be around and hear what's going on because things go through the cracks, you know, it's not intentional.

So I like to be in the designer's office where possible and then just bouncing ideas and, you know, very often you're not obviously dictating things, but you're just hearing what's in their head and it informs your decisions. Yeah. You know? And the designer will say, well, you know,

do we like the curve or the straight edge or do we like the orange or the red, all that stuff? And just by building all those tiny thoughts, you arrive at something eventually, you know. But when I got there yet, we talked about films like the graduate, it. Umbraiser Schoberg, which is this French musical, and a few different things. And we got the reshot test and we found the right colourist. There's a guy called David Tomiak in Vancouver.

He's terrific. So we went to a bunch of colourists and they showed us stuff, but he just, we got exactly what we wanted out of the tests. Like within a few minutes, yeah, he's got it. And he was a great collaborator. So we built a lot. We wanted him with him. And we did a lot of work to really make it feel like filmed in terms of how we apply grain and soft and sunnation and all the kind of stuff. And it's fooled a lot of people. I didn't interview with someone recently and they're like, tell me about going back to shoot on film. We didn't shoot in film.

I'm glad I fooled you, but, you know. Yeah. You know what? I think that kind of question, I think, comes from the fact that you guys did go more saturated, deeper, you know, very, very, in colorist terms, subtractive saturation. a lot of density. And I think people, that that's one of those, like, they see something that looks really nice and luscious,

and their brain goes, that must be film. Yeah, absolutely. I'm like the softness on the grain. Like, it's a little bit of each thing gives you this cumulative effect. It's not one individual piece. And, you know, how you like the lenses, you know. The lenses did have a little bit of character. Yeah, there's just hawks.

Oh, nice. Lovely, yeah. But, you know, they were lovely, but we could have shot it on atlases or I guess Panavision or, you know, like each thing is only X important. Like, I do think the colorist is more important than the lenses.

People always ask about lenses. Yeah, they're important. But I'd fight much harder to get good colors than to get a particular set of lenses. Because they are so much more of an effect on your final film. you know I was just last night I do a freelance coloring on the side

but obviously I color a lot of my own stuff which has gotten me in trouble because I'll start shooting in a certain way and realize I'm not the colorist and go oh I need to fix that on set but to your point about lens choice and stuff like there are so many tools now where you can very realistically emulate halation lens choices.

This guy just came out with a thing called Lens Node where he modeled like a whole handful of lenses and as far as I can tell, it's pretty accurate. And then accuracy is always like, okay, well, I'm not A-Bing it. No one's ever going to A-B it against the real thing. Yeah. Does it look realistic as a lens simulation,

not to this specifically or whatever? But I was working, it resolved is free or 400 bucks, whatever. And there's this like haze plug-in or like like... I heard of us, yeah. Dude. It, like with, when you tweak it right,

forget hazers. Never use them again. Really use that tool. Dude, it was that plus a little, like my other friend has a plug in called, uh-oh. Well, the people who make film box have one called scatter.

And then my friends, oh, this is annoying. He's my friend. I should know it. His company's called. chromatica. What's it called? Digi diff. Okay. And he modeled a bunch of diffusions. So like that hayes thing plus the diffusion plug-in, like you can very realistically figure out your own. It's incredible. Yeah. When we did a show for the BBC called The Fall and season two came along and like, this is great. Season two, your one instruction is just make Gillian look great. Gillian Anderson, just flattered Julian Anderson,

make her, she's the center of the show. So myself and my girlfriend, who was going to be the coerst on the show, we shot some tests with various filters, brought them in, and she literally hung down different aspects of different filters, and we built a diffusion just for Gillian. So we just keyed her eyes,

and she does a particular, I don't know, it was like 20% of this and 10% of that, and a bit of Mitchell and a bit of glimmer glass, whatever. But yeah, It was amazing that you can do all that stuff. I got to say, me and my girlfriend are rewatching the X-Files. Oh, yeah. I was reminded of who my first crush was.

That's funny. Yeah. She's good. Phenomenal actress, yeah. I don't think she's made a bad anything. Yeah, I haven't. I never watched the X-Files. I don't really know her, you know.

brother. phenomenal show. I mean, I don't know, if you like a sci-fi show. Yeah. It's not horrifically sci-fi. It is more,

I don't know. I mean, it lasted 11 seasons. It thread the needle. What was that? Yeah. I think I saw one or two episodes and it came out and it just,

you know, I think I was busy being in college and doing life and just, I didn't watch TV for years. Yeah. To your point about making people look at and stuff, obviously the opening scene of the, the, the opening scene of the,

eternity is supposed to be reality. Yeah. It's shot in a way that's a little more. You guys use spherical on that one? Yeah, it's funny. We shot, initially we were going to have a different aspect ratio, and then you come to the afterlife, we all kind of open up a gonomorphic.

And then there's a bit of producers are a bit nervous about it. We don't need to do that. And we discussed going black and white, so we sort of shot with black and white in mind. And then there was a whole thing about 824, so here's the deal. If you open with black and white, once it goes to streaming,

it'll get less of viewers, but oh, it's 10 seconds ago, I'm not watching like him with. So he said, do you want to do that? I don't know that. So we literally had no plan to look until we got into the grade.

And David was like, what about this film the Dave Tripper's your proper reference? Can we make it look at that? And our colours, Dave Tomek was like, there you go. And I said, I think, I don't really like this.

I don't like this look at all. But they were so enthused. And it's Dave's film. I was like, well, I'm going to go with this because even if I don't like it, it really helps the rest of the film. Yeah. You know, it's appropriate for them.

So it's not pretty looking. It's not photographically that interesting. It's a bit milky and noisy, but it works. So, you know, this thing about planning stuff, that was completely humble. I was just like, finding a conversation, the grade, and let's go this way. Well, and also it's, it does do, you know,

everything is contrast, right? everything. And so by having that first, the the sort of technicalness almost of the afterlife definitely pops more. Exactly. It's very funny. The actor who plays the old Larry, Barry, he's like 90s, but very elderly, whatever. And he came up to me and goes, oh, you're Irish, yeah. I did a film Ireland. And I said, what film do you do? It's called the Blu-Mex. And I said, oh, my dad was in that. My dad was an actor. I said, would you know him?

I knew everybody. I know what your dad is. Who's your dad? I said, no, that O'Brien. Never heard of him. Woked off. That's sweet. But to your point about, like, you know,

given people of a certain vintage, a little bit of love, I was interested in kind of what the visual approach was to shooting young people objectively young hot people in a way that didn't feel objectifying you know like they're young hot people

but they're supposed to be 90 what had was there conversations about how to like thread that needle visually not really that was all done with performance you know costumes

I mean I wanted them to look a little bit movie story you know the films we were talking about um from the past movie stars looked like movie stars right you know so we kind of were leaning into that a bit you know without overdoing it and so they're young hot people we're young hot people you can relate and yeah yeah oh yeah

can't walk down a street in los angeles this guy i tell you yeah i can see those paparazzi guys like in the window your shoulder um yeah so you know i just lit them i you know i didn't want to get to that whole thing but kind of put hard light on them or umful while or whatever. I just thought that'll all work with the performance. You know, I think it becomes quite tricky as well sometimes if you have this like a, like sometimes when theory and practice meet, it doesn't always work. So you have these great ideas. When you take into the floor, you're like, well, to achieve that, whatever, you know, everyone's got to, I don't know, do you think that don't help with the drama or with their performance or they become impractical? So it can be quite careful

imposing those things. You don't be careful about imposing those things. So I just thought, we'll just light it all like it's an old-fashioned movie. You know?

And yes, they were young on the, the makeup arts, Lizzie's makeup parts were doing day. And she went, Lizzie looks so good. That's good skin. I'm going to tell you something.

It's not my work, but also it's not your work. She just looks amazing. I, uh, I'm not going to lie. My sister's big into, the whole, you know, she's like internet famous for skin care stuff. And I've even, I've started to go like in my, you know, getting into my late 30s going,

should I start? This is kind of dry. Can you give me something for this? Yeah. It's not even vanity. I'm just like, I'm on camera at least once a week. And I'm like, this looks like shit. I need someone help me, dude.

This is this a life. No way, AI will just do it for you. Let's put a little button on and it'll clean you up in no time. Yeah. I did want to ask about the, obviously, like we said, the main thing happens in the junction, but then you go elsewhere. You go outside. And I don't know if this is intentional or not, but you maintained that look of kind of fake reality. Like I'm thinking about like the forest and the mountains. They looked real, but at the same time, they looked. idealized. And I was wondering how you kind of pulled that off. We found very beautiful locations. You know, they're British Columbia, sort of stunning.

So everything feels a bit heightened. When you're there, it's a bit like, am I in a real place, you know? And then we just, you know, we didn't lean to anything artificial particularly, but I think, you know, you've got those lenses do a bit of work for you, the Greg's a bit of work,

and then the locations themselves are kind of stunning. And like we found that cabin that we shot the Mantoneternity kind of last bit in. And it just looks like it was built for a film. It's not it's just a cabin in Vancouver, which apparently loads of showing that. I guess that was going to be my question is how much as that was set work. But damn. No, that's that's a cabin which apparently like loads of kind of team shows have been shot at. And there's a fireplace inside.

And someone said there's like a famous. four-hour clip of burning logs that you can find on YouTube and they play on like the Christmas fire channel and someone like this is the fireplace like oh I've finally reached like this is the movie start itself

this fireplace yeah yeah yeah I was in a post house my girlfriend's working place old Goldcrest and I went in last week they're having like a little Christmas

wine and cheese party and the TV was on and they were playing the fireplace I was like I shot that very fireplace you're like you want to see behind the scenes of the fireplace

Yeah, exactly. I can get you an autograph. It was more leaning into just the kind of the old-fashioned screwball comedy, Hollywood glamour look than artificiality, if that makes sense. Yeah. People have cosmic light and, you know, a little bit of backlight and all that kind of stuff. Maybe more than I would normally use. Yeah, you know, I normally, I've, recently I've been kind of sensitive to an artificial backlight, but I don't think I even necessarily clocked it.

obviously there's a few like moments that definitely had that Hollywood like um I was going to say overlit but I didn't mean that I like you know just like me no polished uh yeah like a yeah like yeah like hero shots but overall yeah it all I guess what I'm dancing around is like how how how do I do that how do I mean how how did you thread that needle I want to be a little light like that I mean I it's just taste isn't it like like it like If I'm doing a job and then I'm trying to pick a coerist, right? I always go, I want someone technical. I want someone with taste.

I don't care who it is, but if I get hit by a bus, and I can't make, I want someone with taste to fill in. And so it's just developing your own taste. I had a really great rapper Sean Rooney, who was really helpful. I don't know. I know people, a lot of will work with formulas and they go, like, you know, key to fill and this much backlight. I'm so terrible on technical stuff.

I don't do that. My plans are very loose because I'm so used to directors who just, you turn up on the day and you go, we're not doing that. So my planning is quite loose because I've been so kind of flicked down before. Yeah, yeah. So I really, I don't use a light meter. I just see, well, I've got this thing I use called a monitor. Yeah.

And it's better because that's what it's going to look like in the end. And so it's, you know, and I find very often to the gap, can we just have a little bit more in from that side? let me just take that down a little bit, you know. I try and keep it very untechnical. I'm not good with the technical stuff at all. I remember those days of shooting on film, you'd be like, we're doing 50 frames, that's a stop, and then we're doing an energy show,

that's a stop, and then we're doing it. You're like just walking around, like, I can't get my fingers, and I'm so dead that it's gone. Now I just have a monitor. I look at that, and I go, okay, a bit darker. See, that's the thing that has been spooking me, I think, in my career is, But I also was like, I still am light meter guy.

And more importantly, I'm color meter guy because I don't get control of the scene usually. So like being able to match stuff like accurately instead of just going number in the back. Right. That must that must be right. But yeah, lighting to the monitor is still scary to me. I don't know why, but it's like, what if it doesn't? It's like objectively showing you that's what it looks like. And I'm like, ah, but what if it's not?

Yeah, but even if the monitor isn't properly calibrated, even if it's like 10% too bright or too dark, you know you can get that look in the grade. You know it'll be close enough. As long as no one's messing with the monitor between setups, you're kind of fine. And I just think it's, you know, I guess it's just what I'm used to, you know.

Even 709 on a little monitor on top of the camera, once you go, that's what I'm looking at. You just get used to that all day. I find like light mirrors are really they're obviously a great invention for the time but they're the most unintuitive tool ever it's like it is like painting a picture with a blindfold on you know

it's a painting a picture in grey and knowing the colour up here later it's kind of a weird exercise and it's a really it's a great safety blanket it's great for Rekkes to go we'll have enough light when I get here but I'll use my most as a fashion accessory to impress girls. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, I was on this, I was on this commercial a couple of weeks ago. And the DP had the little Gafferglass. Oh, yeah. And I was like, is that just to let everyone know you're the DP? Because I, although we did have, we did have like 20 cases. Like we had like traditional. Yeah. Big ass tungsten lights on that.

So maybe there was a little more use for it. But I hadn't seen one in a while. Yeah. I mean, they're great for sky watching, you know. Like I said, in Ireland, it changes all the time. you spend your whole time going, is there a gap? Is there a gap? There's a gap coming. Okay, everyone, go.

But, yeah, like, I have light meters, and they're just, like, long neglecting friends that live in a drawer upstairs. Yeah. I brought my light meter to Vancouver, and I lost it in prep. Oh, shit. Yeah.

I'm like, that's an expensive thing to lose. I'm like, oh, I don't really use it. So I got my backup light meter over, and I was like, you know, but, yeah. I think the monitor is the modern version of the light meter. Yeah, well, and with false color, I mean, that's just a spot meter that is more definitive. My girlfriend tried to teach me to use a waveform. I'm like, this is so intuitive. The fact that, I mean, this is what I'm always telling people.

And I'm like, you, the tools, just go make your fucking movie. Because, like, only having the waveform between film and the tools we have now is incredible. Like, all it really tells you is. where there is or isn't light. Yeah. Like the up and down is like, it just tells you where it doesn't really help. It tells you if the sensor is getting enough data,

which, okay, that's good. But I don't use it. But it's like, you know, people show you camera tests and they show you a color chart and they show you like a chart per resolution. No one makes films about those things. Make film about faces. If you want to feel like a camera or a lens,

just shoot some faces, you know? That brings up a good question. because I am sick of seeing camera tests when you are shown them, where it's the same like Panavision hallway where they get the chart, they got the twinkle lights, they got some random representative actor who's really just a PA or somebody's friend. Yeah. How do you run tests?

I don't really like tests. I do them. Really? Yeah, I do the tests. And I find myself getting re-fustrated and kind of confusing. I'm like, what are we doing? And I go watch them and like, oh, this is horrible. I should have paid more attention on shooting them.

So, like, in fact, when we were doing this movie, they wanted me to shoot tests with the actors and all that. And I call Robbie Ryan, I'm like, Robbie, you've done films for 824. What are they expecting from the tests? And he went, they don't even watch them. No worry about it. It's fine.

Just do what you want to do. So we use them to kind of just works some stuff out with a lot. But. Sure. Like, yeah. Yeah. Like, great for costume and air. makeup, I guess. I don't know what you learn

is a DEP from a test, really. I suppose what the lens is doing, but... Yeah. The best way I found just to look at a lens is to project it, which I'd never done until recently. And you go, okay, it's sharp to here and softly there and you stuck down. Okay. But, you know, it's where

all the lens wisdom, like I remember when I started off, I heard that cooks were warm and Zice were cool. So I got a set of each. I test, and it was the opposite around the cooks were cooler than the ice. And we go to the color, and we checked the charts.

We checked, set on the screen where it was. They're like, oh, so that's wrong. But then, you know, how warm or cool are they? Like, not ungradibly so. It's fractional. Well, and to your point about, like, not getting too technical. I've certainly fallen into the trap, and I know a lot of people do,

where you do hear stuff like that. And then you go, but is it? And then you get so in the weeds about finding the objective truth about anything that you lose track of the whole point. Yeah. Where you're like, and especially having to explain to, you know, you'll get like some producer in front of you or director, whoever, who had a really good experience with whatever, a set of lenses.

And you're like, actually, you know, we could save some money if we do these. They look exactly the same. They don't want to hear that. Right. They're like, this worked for me once. I don't care if this is objectively better. I don't care about objectively better. I want to feel safe, and I know I like it.

We can focus on the film from there. Yeah. Someone said to me a few years ago, they were like, oh, I'm going to get a, this month's American cinematographer and read about how they decoded some lenses or uncoded some lenses. He's like, everyone always says they did it in some article. Every month, someone's like, yeah, we did this thing. I'm like, you're not for 30 years.

Like, there's only So much you can say or do with it. Obviously, we need, and I prefer a good lens to bad lenses, but I'd rather shoot a good movie on cheap lenses than, you know, have the most amazing glass in a terrible script. And say a movie like, something that Roger Leake has shot, I don't know, like, or Brother Where Art, though, she shot and Cook S-4s.

If he'd shot them on, I don't know, super speeds, would we go? What a terrible movie? Well, we wouldn't notice the difference, really. There'd be a difference, but like you said, unless you're A being them, you know, it's pretty marginal. Yeah. Where is like?

I had another thought. Do I have to let you go here soon, though. It sucks. I know. It goes by so fast. Oh, that was going to be, that's what I was going to say, was earlier you just talking about, you know, going with a flow and stuff. Were there any technical challenges that you were able to overcome, you know, something

where you're like, this isn't working and then, because I always love hearing these stories of like, we were up against this huge problem and then simplicity won out or, you know, whatever. You know, the biggest thing was there's a scene up the mountains where Lizzie and Callum have this kind of heart to heart and, you know, she's about her grandkids and in the script it was supposed to be the setting sun, some, this golden light, it's all the script about, you know, and we got there and I was like, there's nowhere to control the whiteboard inside of a mountain. and this is going to be like super contrasty. And I said to David, can we wait until the sun's gone down

and she did it really quickly, like in 20 minutes, which is kind of a nuts thing to do in the first week with two actors having worked together before. Yeah. Okay. So we did it and we get there and we're waiting and the sun looked amazing. The producer comes over and he goes,

why aren't we shooting? Well, we're waiting for this to go away. And I just stood there thinking, I'm probably getting fired tomorrow. Anyway, we got the scene, shot at, like, skin of the teeth stuff, got like, I think five shots in 25 minutes, running around out lunatics, actually took in their game, and then the next day I went to check the dailies,

and the cover is trying to like brighten everything up. I was like, what have you done? I caught you off the line. No, no, no, no, put a bike, put a bike, put it on. So that was just one of those things where I was literally going, I think I may have made a really fatal decision and sunk my own career here. Yeah.

By the time you realize it's, you know, it's too late to change course. You're like, oh, okay, well, I'm stuck with it now. Yeah. Does that strong relationship with the colorist allow you to, like I was saying earlier, like coloring my own stuff, I'll be like, no, I can take that down on the great. Like, do you operate like that on set? You're like, I know we can, you tell them people like, I know we can fix that. Don't worry about it.

Let's move. Yeah, I think that's a big part of experience going, we don't need to worry about that. Well, we can spend 20 minutes fixing it now or we can spend 30 seconds doing it later. you know and then there's other times where people go we can fix it later and you go we can't we don't need to spend a few minutes on this and that's kind of what you're paid for isn't it to make able to uh judge those things you know and someone said to me once you are the photography expert on set that's that's what your job is you're the expert you make the calls okay but once you look at that way look at i will make these calls with some kind of confidence

Yeah, that was one that took me a minute was advocating for what I needed and not trying to help the line producer so much. It's hard. Sometimes you're like, oh, man, it's funny. I've done so many jobs for like, can we please sheet this at this time of day?

And like so many TV jobs, it just never works out. And the final show of eternity where they're walking on for the sunset, we had a location. I was like, nope, I want the street that faces into the sun. So we walked around for half a minute. We found this street. I'm like, I want this street.

I went, okay. And I was like, oh, yeah, and you need to build a tunnel in the middle of it, because obviously they come out of this tunnel. And I was like, am I being a complete ass? But, you know, it's the final shot of the movie, and it's great, and it works. And then, of course, it was the same thing.

We waited for the sun to get low, and we got two takes that were perfect, and the third take, the sun just disappeared. So it was two hours awaiting, three minutes of shooting. That's classic filmmaking right there. It ages you. Yeah. Well, we'll definitely, I'm glad this worked out.

Me too. Like I said, man, I walked out of that film last month and it was just like so like, I just watched a real fucking movie. We did it. Like I was very, I was the highest compliment. Yeah. I was telling every I was hanging out. I'm a name drop. I was hanging out with buddy Joey and, and Adam Savage.

And I was telling him, we were talking about movies. And I was like, bro, you got to watch eternity. that thing was great. And he was like, okay, all right. So I'll let you know if he sees it. Right. Well, thank you very much. Yeah, thank you, man.

And yeah, I'll definitely be in touch. Great. All right. Talk again. Awesome. Take care, brother. Bye. Frame and Reference is an Albot production, produced and edited by me, Kenny McBellan.

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