Frame & Reference Podcast - 230: "Pluribus" Cinematographer Marshall Adams, ASC

Episode Date: February 19, 2026

Marshall Adams joins us this week to talk about Pluribus!Enjoy!► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠F&R Online ⁠⁠���⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Support F&R⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Watch on YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Produced by Kenny McMillan► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Hello and welcome to this episode 230 of Frame and Reference. You're about to drop into a conversation between me, Candy Macmillan, and my guest, Marshall Adams, ASC, DP of Pluribus. Enjoy. How's the reception been for the show? It's been really positive. I mean, the show's doing very well. And, you know, I mean, it's Vince.

Vince did another one out of the park. You know, he's a man. I've told people forever that, like, Like, out of all the important television, Breaking Bad might be the first outside of the like, what do you call it? Why don't I try to say Godfather three times? What's the show? There's the wire and then there's the other one. See, it's not even that important.

Breaking Bad's better. But yeah, the man like redid television for a modern time. He really did. It really changed the look and the style and the presentation, you know, really made it. one of those feature quality, I think, in a lot of ways. Really, really kind of changed the face. I didn't get involved in Breaking Bad until much later, but... You know, I did want to ask you, because I saw on your old resume about a few shows that I loved that you worked on.

One of them being a monk. Yeah, yeah, came in as a hired gun and did, I don't know, four episodes over a season, I think, or something. Yeah, it was a lot of. Tony's great and that was a fun show. It's that era of television I kind of miss. Like we're just checking in on the characters once a week kind of thing. Yeah. You know, I love the story arcs, but every once in a while like that or Babylon 5 was another one.

I was a big one for me as a kid. Yeah, that was a gaffer on that one. Did all the lighting. The first season, you know, set the Zocalo up and the whole deal. when you're lighting that kind of stuff how far along in your career were you when you get a show like Babylon 5 that was probably a big

jump for me at the time I mean I had done a lot of like TV movies and smaller things but that was John Flynn the third who had done what are he done the Hill Street Blues

he did the original Hawaii 5-0 I mean he was a big time guy. So it was exciting. But yeah, and then I, but I did two seasons on it and I couldn't, it was, it was the closest thing I've ever worked on that was almost like having a regular job. We worked seven to seven 30 literally every day on that pliable playship and, and yeah, nothing changed. It was, it got a little mundane after a while, but it was a lot of fun. John was just fantastic. It's such a pleasure to work with. Yeah. What type of stuff do you learn on, on a

show like that where you go from like you said like tv movies because i always find that i'm kind of learning on the i have yet to hit a point in my career where i'm there's like i need to rise to the occasion it's usually like iterative steps where it's like oh maybe i learn one little thing but something like that i feel like teaches you a lot about obviously gaffing but probably you're observing the dp or whoever oh yeah absolutely i mean you know lighting was always kind of where my heart was. I started out actually as a camera assistant and had my days to be able to join the union and at the last second realized that, you know, I had spent more time as an assistant watching the electricians doing the lighting and being more interested in that than I really was

that interested in the camera. So I said before I join, I got to check this out and that's when I joined the electrical department. So lighting's kind of always been when my heart is. But that show was was just ginormous. I mean, you had this set with a, with a, you know, a disappearing background. You know, that whole thing was supposed to be on a giant round circle. And so we had a forced perspective

with miniature in the background and the track, you know, so it was like, how do you like that with Kino Flows that we had running along the sides and make them look like they're actually disappearing and getting smaller. So anyway, it was a lot of challenges. It was very interesting. But it also lent itself to experimenting

with all kinds of new things. You know, they had these crazy grid pieces that somebody had found. I think they belonged on some sort of pallet system. And they had all kinds of weird holes in them. We used to project light through them. And they gave us some funky pattern. Just all kinds of fun experimentation. Yeah, because it's like, especially if you're working there all day, every day,

at a certain point, you must start looking at the walls. Like, well, what if we just break that and put it? over there, you know, like, just start screwing around because it's like, how do we keep ourselves entertained? Yeah, flip the key and see what happens. Let's go green with it. It was kind of early on in Tina Flos history, too. So, you know, they had a bunch of stuff with us.

It was a big deal for free. I remember at the time to have all that stuff and now. And he was going for his UL listing. I remember at the time. And so we had the number of the ballasts. He gave us a great deal on. We had to hide inside the walls. Nobody would know that they were the unregistered ones. but because he was using old military technology drive those things at that high frequency

which is why they didn't slicker. Is that what it was? I've met him a few times at like conventions and stuff because I write for this website called Pro Video Coalition so that you'll do interviews at NAB or whatever. He's a great guy, but you're just talking like a Varyak type thing that was in the ballast at the time? I don't know where they came from.

No, it was a ballast specifically designed to drive, to boost the frequency from 60 hertz to 50,000 hertz. So you couldn't literally until you went to like a thousand frames, you could never see them flicker. So they were, you know, it's like, you know, flicker free and you could do whatever you wanted to with them. And then he had, you know, he was able to get a bunch of them tubes made in the right, you know, color quality back in the day

when everybody was terrified of green, you know. Oh, no, they're cool lights. We're going to have to deal with the green. So yeah, so he really, you know, kind of led the way with that. But, you know, that stuff wasn't, was unheard of at the time. You know, I had a set of the diva lights for a while. And then KinoFlo called me and they were like, hey, we know you have these. We need them back.

And I was like, what? This was like four years ago maybe. And I was like, for what? And they were like, well, we still do repairs. And a lot of people still use them. And we're willing to give you a set of the LED panels for like, I think it was more than half off if I gave them my divas back. And so I brought the divas back and they were like, yeah, you can keep whatever you want out of it. So like I kept the stands, kept the, I should have kept the diapers, you know, the diffusion diapers.

Yeah, forgot about that. But they gave me a new case and I've been using those ever since. And they're like, their LED technology is phenomenal. Yeah, no, he really, he really laid into that. he was almost too late at the party because he mean he was leading the head but he wanted to get that product just perfect. So it really is in a lot of ways, but I'm sure he lost a lot of people that wanted to get going, you know. Yeah, it sucks because I've used most of the LEDs and I always have my little color meet around because I'm a giant nerd. And yeah, it's the they are by far either the most or the top three like spectra.

accurate, just like perfect. Like the only downfall is the output, but now they have new ones where the output's a lot better. Yeah, right, right. I mean, they've gotten so much better over the years. But he had a kind of an open door policy. I remember at the time for developing new gear. You know, anybody could come in and spend some time in your shop and, you know, and, you know,

that's how he kind of led the way. He was always in the right place for that stuff. You just wanted to make the systems better, you know? Yeah. Was he, you mean, he was inviting like DPs in and Gaffers and stuff? Tell us what's wrong. Yeah. Or, yeah, come in and if you have an idea for a light, let's sit down and draw it out.

Maybe build one and see how it looks and see what it develops into. So, yeah, he did that for quite a while. Is there another company doing that right now? Because it feels like they're very standoffish in general, even the ones I'm friends with. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, a lot of the technology is foreign built now, too. So getting to the engineers is almost impossible. And he was the original engineer.

engineer, you know, so it was like you were dealing with the guy. That's, you know, it's very hard to find these days, especially, you know, someplace close to a movie hub because, you know, it happens in an out-of-the-way places where nerds hang out like us. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, about the, like, the rise of the keynote, I remember in film school seeing a zip light for the first time and being like, if I ever use one of those, I'll have, made it. And then immediately bought some kinos and didn't even realize the lineage of like soft light. How easy you have it with the kinos. The only downfall for kinos and I got burned for them with one once was in Toronto where it was really cold. When they get cold, so when they got hot, we used to wrap them all on black wrap. I mean, we would talk like,

you know, baking a baked potato out of it. And they would get hot and turn green. The other problem is that on the other end, when they get cold and out in the cold, they start to go really magenta and they get dimmer and dimmer and dimmer. So you have to in cold weather areas, you gotta really kind of keep an eye on them. But yeah, it's such a, I mean, I remember

like walking around somewhere in Europe and seeing, you know, Chino Flows like in a shopping mall somewhere, you know, and I was like, why, boy, why. Frears really, really blown the wit off of this one, then in the source forest too. I remember seeing those all, you know.

those things take a whole of smokes. Yeah. And now we're starting, not keynotes, but now we're starting to go back to the source. It's like how long did that take 30, almost 40 years for people to go like, you know what, soft light? We could go a little harder if you wouldn't mind, you know? Well, it's almost not distant. True hard light is hard to find these days, you know, except in some of the old tungsten heads still. But or a demise, but, you know, a truly like sharp, hard light.

They're almost non-existent. Do you think digital acquisition has something to do with that? Because I feel like, I mean, you know, I haven't done this scientifically. But just looking, you know, you could hit someone with a hard light on film and it felt like it took it. You know, it's like, I don't know if you ever are like played music or anything, but it's like tape saturation, you know, where you could like hit it and it would it would soft limit to the edge. Oh, really? Yeah, no. With digital cameras, you know, obviously it's just depending on the camera.

Yeah, yeah. Stamps the edge. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that was such a necessity back in the old, you know, slow film days that, you know, so that's, and those guys all learned on a hard light. Yeah, we were just scared of it. Yeah, exactly. But, you know, it's, and it became such a cool thing to use big soft sources for a while.

And it seems like it's kind of flipping around a little bit now. But to get like a truly believable hard source of sunlight through a window, can be tricky sometimes. You need a lot of distance and, yeah, and a good hard line. Oh, have you used the CRLS selectors? No. Those are nice to get some extra distance because, I mean, it's just a mirror, but like just the idea of having a ridge, like a sturdy baby plate mirror.

So you can put, what I'll do is put you put the light on the bottom of the stand, shoot it up into the mirror and then out, right? So you get an extra distance. We were on Il Camino We were doing the It was on stage It was an exterior of the pit Where Jesse's down in the bottom of the pit

And And we were using a xenon bouncing off a convex mirror It was in the same condor bucket You know on stage And just as we were about to roll The guy reached up to clean the mirror And it just exploded

And it was like a Friday Friday midday Or probably afternoon By the time we started And it was like where are we going to find a convex mirror in Albuquerque, an 18-inch convex mirror, you know? So we ended up actually having to use a four-by-four and go with two different condors. And, yeah, so you get just, you know, it was a 7K xenon, so it was putting out some heat.

Oh, boy. Yeah. But you can't, and that's the hardest edge I've ever been able to find. You know, a lot of those zonons is it really looks fun-like. And if you can get it far away, it really works. Yeah. Yeah, you know, when I was interviewing Greg Frazier for Dune, which would have been about this time last year, he was just like, you can't fake sunlight, so I don't even try. And I was like, damn it, man, like, give me.

I was hoping I was going to get the secret. The secret is use the sun. Damn it. Yeah, but you can't always do it. So, yeah, it's all a matter of perspective in size of the friend, too. Yeah. Yeah. Is your lighting philosophy that like, because I've heard this a few times and I find it really fascinating, like the essence of which being light should feel like it has to fight its way to get to the set.

Whereas obviously a lot of times you're just putting, you know, a six by next to someone and then there you go. Like when you're lighting a scene, obviously everything changes depending on the scene. But generally, are you trying to kind of like mess with the light in some way before it gets? gets the person or is it more about shape or after all the years of gaffing where do you fit it depends in the situation i am a firm believer that if you take somebody out of the story with a less shaft of light in a hospital freaking waiting room then then you know it you're in in my book i mean it's just my own humble opinion it's you've kind of defeated the purpose and same thing with camera moves i don't ever really want to somebody to go ooh that was the coolest camera move i've ever seen

because it takes you out of the story. So it has to fit. If it's a hospital waiting room, it's probably top light. It might be a little green or blue or whatever. And then from there, you can kind of shape it a little bit and make it your own.

So it's all about the situation, the set that you're on, and coming up with some fun ideas potentially that might exist in reality, you know. Yeah. Because the thing that I always struggle with, because I primarily shoot documentary now so I don't get like extensive narrative.

narrative, you know, bites at the apple, is like, all right, you're in the hospital scene. You know it's toplit. How do I keep that from just looking crappy? You know what I mean? Like, if I were to do exactly what was real, you know, put, maybe I put a bunch of quasar tubes up top. Yeah, that's a great way to do. The color might be clean, but, you know, do you just roll with it? Do I am I relying on the colorist?

I mean, the tough one is starting really wide where you see the top light in the frame. and then moving into a close-up, that's the tricky one. Because oftentimes, you know, when you're in the tighter shot, I'll get rid of the top light and light them off. I mean, it's still a little high, but at least it's a lot more flattering than, you know, a raccoon light. But yeah, you know, it's... But that's the tricky one.

That's always the hard one is when you see it first and then you push into a close-up, how do you make somebody look good there? But, you know, the tortures we go through. Yeah, I mean, luckily, I... A lot of times I color my own stuff so I can fudge, you know. It's like, I know I'm going to flag that wall off later. I know, but that was a hard lesson to learn when I started delivering, you know,

giving my footage away and then like turn around and go, oh, wait. I wanted to put a double on that thing. Yeah, yeah. Power window on the background. Yeah. I was being lazy. My bad. I'm so sorry.

Yeah. Can he give it back? But yeah, no, I mean, you know, and I, it's amazing nowadays. You know, kind of spoiled that way that, you know, how much control you have. And most it's like, yeah, you know, I forgot to put that double net topper on the background. You know, we can do it here right now. Power window. And it's much more financially viable than 150 people standing on there's that twiddling and thumb.

So anyway, yeah, but I love it. I think it's amazing. It continues to advance and continues to progress and gives us lots and lots of tools. Yeah. Has your sort of workflow changed because of that? Because obviously a lot of your work, especially within skill, it's, you know, film, film, and then we start, you know, better call, Saul. We got red, we got R.E., whatever. And then I don't even know what plural of us was shot on, but probably Alexa.

Yeah, Alexa Mini, LF. Yeah. When you made that shift from film to digital, did you, well, A, like, what were the sort of growing pains there? Because that's always informative. but then B, did your workflow the way that you shoot or the way that you light change at all? Yeah, I mean, I think I experimented with, you know, pushing boundaries, you know, pushing the edge quite a bit more, you know, for night exteriors and things like that. But, you know, I started with the, I was on CSI, New York when, and we were like, season seven or something like that out of nine or six or something. And we went from 35 to digital, but it was, you know, it was an F-35.

So the camera wasn't... Great camera. No, it was a great camera. It just isn't anywhere near what the technology is now. And I'll never forget because we were all signed colors, you know, and CSI New York. We got blue. Miami got like, you know, straw and green and, you know, and the original CSI. I can't remember.

But... Yeah, exactly, right? Just nighttime all the time. And the QC in Germany kept kicking it back because, you know, the blues, there was something fuzzy in the blue and it was only Germany that kept kicking it back so that camera had a little bit of an issue and some of the some of the blues that we were using in one of the sets but anyway so that was it we were trying to work that out but uh but yeah no it was fun it was fun to kind of you know figure it out and and push to see what this camera's capable of let's let's push it to its limits see how it happens

yeah did you find you had the light differently for it not really not really you know it was interesting. There was, you know, everybody was so worried about it. And I remember at the time, we had all of these, you know, like people from Claremont came in and hung around with us, you know, for all the three or four days, making sure that we figured out the camera and then, you know, nothing went wrong. And we had some sort of lighting advisor. And by the third shot, they were like, oh, you guys got, like, what are we doing? So, I mean, it certainly was a lot easier to tell what the image was going to look like than, you know, looking at a 640, 480 video tap out of, you know, a tap that's, you know, a camera. that's only that big. So you could tell focus. It could tell, you know, so many things. Even, you know, lighting was obviously a lot closer to. But, yeah, no, it was so. I don't think so.

No, I don't think I changed much at all. And one of the things that I do that I love to do, and we were talking about LED panels earlier, I carry a 12 by 12, 12 inch by 12 inch LED panel, one of the original ones with a 38, degree grid on it just for eye lights only. It's the only thing I've ever found. I tried experimenting with raw bulbs,

with all kinds of different light bulbs with different light styles, and nothing ever worked other than that. So you can put a reflection in somebody's eye without really adding any more light. And it's one of my favorite things to do. Is it like one of the old like Aladdin's? It's

I'm trying to remember who makes the panel But yeah No it's just a flat It was before they even put the bend in the bail It was that it was I forget the name of those Light panels Light panels

That was it's a 12 by 12 white It's a one foot light One by one by one light panel is what it was And Still to this day of the guys carry You know a couple of them from just Specifically because that's what I use all the time It's my go-to.

I like Is it just comfort that keeps you from going to like maybe one of the more, you know, easy to rig like, you know, all these companies make a light blanket now. You know, it's like it's just a piece of cloth or, you know, even aperture now that aperture is really gone. Yeah. And even they make one. But is it just the comfort of knowing that's your highlight? Because I'd do the same thing if I were you. I don't use it.

I don't use it to fill somebody in. I don't use it as any fill. It literally is just the eye refact. selection. And it's the, it's hard enough that it gives you that ping without adding any more light. And it's the, the perfect balance in between that I found, at least for me, that I found that really gives you that without, you know, without adding a month more light, which is, that's always the thing that I hate having to do. But it's important to have that life in somebody's eyes and an image, at least in my opinion. No, 100%. And I'm always fascinated by people's approach

to the highlight because everyone has a different you know someone will cut out like a foam circle and just put it in you know kind of in the reflection there's i saw i should have asked him i had steve edelin on the show and i meant to ask him but like i saw you had like a breeze light type like a small one or like a like a like a reflector dish on uh situation just always like right under and i'm like is that a eye light or is that doing something you know there's a whole artistry to the eye light there really is And, I mean, I remember I was gaffing for a DP Paul Maybaum years ago, and we spent a whole day just experimenting with different ideas, different bulge, different concepts,

and none of them really did what we wanted. And it took me even another year or two before I finally discovered that. So it's the only thing that's ever worked for me that I've been able to find. But I know everybody's got their go-to and, you know, whatever makes them happy, you can only do what makes you happy, right? And that's the image I want. That's the thing I want. So if that's all you can strive for,

otherwise you become a poor facsimile of somebody else's work, right? That's, you know, I've always said that, like, if you steal from one person, that's stealing. If you steal from two people, you're boring. If you steal from three people, now you're influenced. Yeah, you've been influenced by others. Well, we can't, none of us can say that we don't steal from somebody. I mean, it's, you know, everything's been done pretty much.

So it's just a matter of kind of putting that stuff together into a system that, you know, works for you. And looks, feels good to you, you know. Yeah. Along your career were you ever, were you able to meet any of your influences? Yeah, some of the, I mean, you know, a lot of them were influences, you know, from being on the set, John Flynn was one, Lily Isaacs was another one. they were, you know, great cinematographers that, you know, that were successful at the time that I was coming up and looked up to, you know. And, yeah, I got to work with them both, luckily, and learned a lot from both, you know. But it's interesting that, you know, things kind of change as you go, the technology changes. I mean, John specifically was a hard-like guy.

He was an old Moly-Ritcherson guy. Try to find a Mole Richardson light on a set now, you know? They just sold them all. Did you see that? No, I didn't. No, did they really? They liquidated their stock. They're done.

Wow. They had an auction a couple weeks ago. One. Everything was more than, you know, like 60% off. You just, you could, I almost went in there and bought like two tweenies just for funsies. Just to have them, yeah, right? Yeah, because they were actually even the baby of us, you know, a baby and a, I forget what the other small one, the inky, maybe. Because it was the in-betweeny.

anyway but yeah no i mean i'm hot oh man those things are i actually have a burn on my hip from somebody bumping into me with a tweenie i still have a little tiny m r burned into my hip yeah that's good that's that's a good tattoo right there that's a good filmmaker tattoo especially now that they're gone yeah this is one of the original ones you kid your fake ones back when tweenies were like 500 degrees yeah that is a i don't miss the I'm still waiting as I feel like everyone is for like the obviously like the perfect tungsten LED. I know the phosphor ones are good, but I don't miss the heat and then not being able to move it and the complete lack of control. Put it put in a, all right, I'll take it out and I'll put it in again.

Take it out, you know, a lot of that. When I was Gaffin, we used to, we had with DP that would do that sometimes and we would just walk up to it, you know, and thumped the barn doors and you oh yeah that's it perfect okay we're good okay go I was at one time I was lighting a barber shop for my buddy and the director

was kept telling us like all right no little less little less and I'm outside with on a roller and I and I ended up it went all the way behind the brick gone gone gone he's like oh that's like that's perfect yeah yeah and I was like no problem turned it off you know save some energy walk back inside grab a coffee

it makes you laugh because you always wonder what's actually going on out there and you know all you can do is you know tell from your eye what you like but yeah i'm sure i've done that a few times i mean i used to have a dp that i gaffed for who didn't know the difference between the doubles and the singles and the colors like he knew obviously it wasn't single and double war but but like he walked one time all my guys were up and working on stuff and he just like can you put a double in the light put a double in that light and I finally

I looked down and I see him because I was up on a ladder at that point because we were so busy I looked down and I see him like going through the scrim bag

and it was like he had the doubles of the red ones Steven yeah oh okay thanks so yeah I appreciate it just for his visit at you

yeah I had read I think it was an interview you did where you were talking just talking about Cruz that like your approach to being a department head is very like personnel based. Yes.

It took me a little while to kind of figure out how, well, how important that those relationships were, not only that, but, you know, that it really is. It's all about support. I absolutely love supporting the crew and telling them what an amazing job they're doing because they just worked their butts off for us, you know? It's like, I walk away at the end of the day. They're still rapping.

I mean, it's, and so, yeah, I try to be, because then, you know, things like this, you know, I can do an interview and, you know, I get to talk about all the great work that we did, which I did absolutely enough, you know, never put a freaking pair of gloves on. And it was like, so I get to take all the credit. But, you know, they really, they really do the work all day long. And some of them are really incredible artists in their own right. You know, they're just waiting for a shot to be able to get up and shoot something themselves. which is, you know, I mean, I remember going through that too. I had literally all but given up about moving up to being a DP. I've been trying to shoot everything I could get my hands on, PSA's little, you know, shorts.

And it just wasn't happening. And I finally just said, you know what, I'm happy being a gaffer for the rest of my career. I love what I do. And all of a sudden the phone rang and it got handed to me. So you just never know. It's not how it always happens. It's like right when you're about like, you know what, it's like when you stop, when you stop chasing your partner, suddenly they're interested in you, you know?

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, even though this one is an employment partner or an artistic partner. But, yeah, no, it's very true. That's exactly how it happened, literally. It was a friend through a friend that recommended me to a director, and his prerequisite was, well, you, because the DP that we normally, I had gaffed for him before the DP that we normally work with wasn't available. So he called, and he said, I heard you've been shooting. Will you come and DP this, you know, TV movie for me? I said, yeah, sure. Because the only thing I asked is that you bring all the people I know.

I was like, I can do that. I can do that. That's phenomenal. What are some of the, you know, because obviously the lighting, knowing lighting for the most part is important as a DEP. Obviously your command of composition, all that kind of stuff. But as that department head, what are some of those things that you've learned, hopefully not from watching someone blow up,

but like that maybe the good leadership you saw, just stuff that like you've taken that you're like, all right, that that makes a good leader, that makes a good DP outside of the technical. I will say that, you know, Vince Gilligan is the king of enabling people to bring their best work. He's, you know, he's got an open door policy. He wants to hear people's ideas.

And so nobody's ashamed to bring ideas and or afraid. and what it does is it enables people to do good work, I mean, to bring their best. And that's something that, I think, is an incredible lesson, a very important lesson, because, you know, unless you ask, unless you enable people to bring new ideas, you'll never know what they're capable of

or never know what they can bring. And, I mean, I remember actually meeting Vince and Peter Gould for after I'd been hired on their call Saul, and met him for lunch, and they wanted to talk about my approach to the show and visual ideas and stuff. And one of the first things that they said was we would rather have to go back

and reshoot something and feel like we left anything on the TV. And that was such a foreign concept to me at the time. I was like, because beyond all else in television, especially, you made sure that you got it, you know, and maybe didn't take quite the risks that you could because you were afraid that, you know, know, something could go wrong. And that just wasn't, these guys were like, go for, just go for.

And so that was kind of step one. And then beyond that, you know, being able to talk about ideas with them and to the directors and stuff like that, it just makes such a difference to enable people to bring it, you know? Yeah. No, honestly, some of the best DPs have worked with the best directors all kind of have a similar story of like this was not a why did I try to say oligarchy it's early for me even though it's almost noon

the you know this isn't a dictatorship you know everyone was there there was a lot of like you know either people having ideas or not micromanaging I think is another big one like you tell someone to do something you let them solve the you give them the problem you let them solve it don't tell them how to solve it because obviously if they're new you might have to tell them how to solve it

But for an experienced crew member, they have a solution somewhere. And part of the fun of filmmaking is creative problem solving. And guess what? That solution may be better than your own. So, you know, watch out and see what they do. You know, there's a lot to be learned. You know, none of us know at all, that's for sure. And, yeah, I mean, that's what brings it, the magic.

I mean, oftentimes. And I also find that, you know, limitations, interestingly enough on films and television, that's where the magic comes from. And a lot of, you know, the ways that you come up with ideas to get around a problem that if you have all the money in the world, you don't have that problem, you know, all the time. It's always time. It's never the gear nowadays for, like on Plyubus, where, you know, we had everything we wanted to, but never had enough time. And now it's always, that's all the tough. Yeah.

I think Adam Savage says it's cutting, the way to think about restriction is that it's cutting branches off your decision tree, which makes decisions way. easier, you know? Yeah, absolutely. You only got two, flip a coin or pick your favorite. You know, if you've got a million, you're like, I don't know. Yeah. Number 12. Or you've got to figure out a way to get around a problem that, you know,

you wouldn't normally have to figure out. And what ends up coming from it is just nice to get you look back on and go, man, oh man, why didn't I think of that before? Yeah. You know, I read an article with, I think it was with Vince about how he had been writing bad guys for so long that now he was like I want to just, it's something else. On that, in that

regard, like, because obviously he'd worked with them before on the other shows and stuff, what was the sort of initial call in like pre-production for Pluribus? Did it feel any different, or was it just a different subject matter? No, it felt very different in a lot

of ways because, yeah, because it was a different subject matter, because we had a different point of view, because it wasn't a period piece, because it was Ray Seahorn who was absolutely magic to watch sometimes I mean just even he's watching her rehearsal sometimes

he'd go man where did she come up with that but so yeah it was a different and it had a different visual approach we had you know we'd kind of come up with this idea or Vince had about the you know kind of actocrine look that was going to happen

after episode one after the big event at the end of episode one and what was that going to be we shot some tests for that but but yeah I mean right from the beginning, you know, I remember a year and a half before we started shooting, maybe it was only a year before we started shooting. We were standing on this, people, we spent the day in a van, going around looking for the location for the cul-de-sac.

And I have a photo of like, you know, a ton of us standing in a circle in the weeds somewhere, and that's exactly the spot that we chose, and that's where, you know, the cul-de-sac is. So, you know, you had a very different kind of visual approach. I had a lot more control over it. different part of town and different part of town you guys didn't even leave Albuquerque

no I mean that's what I'd say about it the different part of Albuquerque I guess you gotta be from Vancouver a mile away it's way yeah but yeah you know absolutely Albuquerque is such a great town to shoot it too

because it can get anywhere you know in 15 20 minutes the old advantage of L.A. right which is such a PS nowadays you can't get anywhere in 20 minutes in LA but yeah yeah the Albuquerque also the first and only place I've ever seen the Milky Way oh yeah that night it just happened to be clear enough I was just drive well I guess it wasn't Albuquerque's proper but it was New Mexico I was driving like through it and passed it and I just

looked up and I was like what the hell is that yeah you get I thought it was like the Aurora I thought you had to have like a special camera for it I didn't know you just see it yeah we had actually had an Aurora come through about a month ago, which is very rare for New Mexico. Yeah. Yeah, I had a bunch. I couldn't find it, but I had a friend that took a bunch of photos. It was just gorgeous. Absolutely.

Yeah. So when you're, are you, were you guys intentionally going? Because I have to be perfectly honest, obviously tomorrow is when the finale comes out at the time of this taping. So I don't even know how it ended. But I'm only like four episodes in. Okay. But you're free to ruin it for everyone else because it's fine.

No, no. Barb me in for me. I hate doing that. But the, when you guys are talking about, because I think it looks phenomenal. And I have this, you know, there's a lot of stuff online about, ooh, the Netflix look. And I don't think there's a real Netflix look. I think Netflix just puts out a lot of stuff. And so what people are seeing is a high quality indie, basically.

So like the, you know, if you see something that has a lower budget back in the day, it looked like it had a low budget. Now everything looks like it has a high budget, but maybe is a low budget. budget. Yeah, right. And that's what people are striving. Right. Whereas Apple, I have yet to see something. Like, if there is an Apple look, it's we only hire the best people because everything

on that channel, and I'm an Apple hater. You got to give it to them. Like it, everything they've made is phenomenal. Do, are they involved in, everyone has said no. You're free to say no. But are they involved in some way or are they as hands off as they seem to be? It depends on the show. I mean, they were much more involved when I did.

sugar. I did the season two of sugar, which isn't out yet. Oh, who was the DP on that? I interviewed him. No, that was season one, I think. Okay, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, no, so, yeah, it hasn't, we haven't even finished. I actually still coloring the episodes. But, but yeah, so it definitely has, you know, kind of an individual feel. Apple, they are, they are, with Vince, Vince kind of writes his own thing.

I mean, it's his own deal. So he's the, yeah, exactly. He's, the buck stops with him. And, I mean, even the widescreen, you know, we went two, three, nine. And I remember on a show that I had done, servant a number of years ago, and they had talked to Apple about shooting widescreen. And Apple just flat out said, no, we're not going to happen. And so I said to Vince, I don't know if they're going to go for it.

And he was like, oh, we'll see. And, of course, immediately it was like it was done. Yeah. I mean, he never does that because, you know, that's not his way. But, but yeah, no, it was, you know, it was instant. I was like, okay, cool. Yeah, all right. Well, that wasn't the question I meant to ask, but it did occur to me.

I was like, I don't, I need to know. But the real question being, you're, you, I imagine you guys weren't just doing different for difference sake. But when you're when you were establishing the look beyond the, um, palette of it, that codicromous you spoke of, um, was there, you know, just what, what did you decide not to do? You know, what wasn't the show? Because obviously dark comedy, sort of sci-fi, you could, you could take it a lot of different ways. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the sci-fi, even though it's always in the background, has a much smaller part, really, because there isn't, you know, there isn't the plywood spaceship like there was on Babylon's life.

So it's kind of always in the background. Our big thing was was keying off of Ray, keying off of Carol, you know, that we're always telling her story, her point of view. So that was the tricky part sometimes because, you know, you want to, sometimes, you know, script-wise, you want to reveal something for a beat, for a moment, you know, to find that.

And we really wanted to pivot off of her, so that could be challenging sometimes. but that was the big thing. You know, the look was really kind of embracing Albuquerque as it is now because Saul was a period piece. Obviously, Breaking Bad was, you know, quite a bit ago. So, you know, the lot has changed with the streetlights. There's almost no streetlights. You didn't get any of that orange anymore.

Yeah, yeah, no sodium vapor. I mean, I was with two-trick pony, mercury and sodium. and those are the only two I loved, and now they're all gone. You know, you fly over the country now, and you're like, where are the heck of the Sonian papers? But so, yeah, you know, kind of embracing that kind of harder edge, very kind of focused, and really kind of looking at Albuquerque, you're looking at New Mexico with a different eye. You know, we went out to the VLA, which was cool at the beginning of, you know, episode one, which I didn't even know was there.

Vince turning out of that. I mean, you know, I mean, there are 100, what is it? 30, no, 35 of those dishes. They're 130 feet tall, each one of them. And they stretch out, depending on the time of year, they move them further away and they bring them closer together. And they are just massive, you know? Did they not use those in, like, contact? That's exactly right.

Yeah, that's what everybody always references is, you know, the first time. But it's tricky to shoot there. You know, you can't transmit or you're not supposed to. Eventually, we ended up kind of having to buy them out because there was just no way. way that we would not have anything transmitted. Well, they're listening for anything. And so literally nobody within miles has Wi-Fi. They have a whole area.

If you need to use your cell phone, you have to drive out like a mile to be able to turn it on when they're operating. Yeah. And then when they stopped operating for your cell phones is exactly when the aliens tried to contact us. Yeah, exactly. That was the one. I got where the signal came through. Yeah. Luckily, there are other places that are listening now.

You know, I kind of want, like, the thing I've loved about the show so far is that there's this wonderful density to the image. And while it is soft, it still has a very, it's like realistic. I don't know how to describe it. So I just need you to tell me what, like kind of what you're going for. How much control are you putting on the image? Are you trying to be a little more hands off? Are you putting, you know, is it a grip jungle? Because I need to steal it.

New Mexico, there are really many grip jungles. I mean, they are, you know, can be in some of the tighter stuff. But, like, you know, putting flyswaters and things overhead is almost an impossibility because of the wind. You just never know. And let me tell you, grips. Ask the grip in New Mexico what the weather's going to do. And you will get a straight answer because they can see it coming from miles, you know. wind, rain, you name it.

So, yeah, so it's a minimalistic kind of thing, but just, you know, kind of accentuating what's there. You know, we had lots of floating bounce cards for Ray when we would walk into a close-up and just kind of pick her eyes up a little bit. Not to mention, she's a fantastic subject, you know?

I mean, just so easy to light. And not hung up on, you know, sometimes it's going to be not fantastic. Sometimes you're going to be in a little bit of top light, And she's cool with all that. She knows I'll make her look as good as I can when I can. And sometimes it's just going to be a little funky. That's a pleasure, too.

I mean, that's half the battle sometimes. That was a very important lesson I learned very early on in my career was I got the opposite type of person. That's where I learned from the producer, the phrase, people of a certain vintage. Great term. Yeah. I stole it.

That was like 15 years ago. I think I'm one of them now. Yeah. You go for it because it was, I had, you know, set up the shot. It was for some interview type thing. But I was just like the hired gun. I would not even call it a gaffer. I was just helping and I was doing a lot.

And I set it up and I was like, she looks awesome. because I thought she looked very beautiful showing what she looked like so to speak and they no one agreed with me wow really wow well you know it was supposed to be this person is supposed to be very glamorous and stuff so I wasn't

even though this is reality I was not adhering to the script as it were so we started bringing in a lot more you know cards and things a little underlie yeah there's a famous story supposedly that John Wayne they were doing a commercial near the end of his career and he showed up. They'd lit it all and they were ready to go. Camera was ready. They brought him in and it was all

half lit from one side and he walked up to the mark and turned into the light and they were like, no, no, no, skirt, you're supposed to be facing this and he goes, well then you better move the lights over there. It's good. Man, do what do you like? Yeah, you know, good old, what was his real name? It was like Mallory or something crazy. Yeah, right.

I did want to ask about the, you know, I think there was one like YouTube breakdown where they were explaining how you strapped like an LED screen to the front of the car. Yeah. When. At the front of the truck. How many of those types of tricks were, oh, to explain it for anyone listening, basically to have interactive lighting and also to give her something to look at, you had a screen there.

So it looked like she was looking into it and stuff was happening in front of her to block the. people. What I did was I actually, I shot, I went out there with my phone, propped, you know, on a, on a little tripod on my dashboard, and drove forward down that side of the street, and recorded it and then played it backwards. And I realized very, very quickly, where Vince wanted to have the camera on her, we were going to have camera shadows all over her. And originally I was trying to do it a little bit cheaper level with some projection screens. We're using a couple of projectors and, you know, either at 1,000 H or a projection, rear projection. It just was never enough.

So what we ended up with was the LED screens. But that was all about avoiding being able to use the light that was there, taking advantage of, you know, we added a bunch, but, you know, all of those streetlights, there was no way I was going to be able to control them, you know, cut them off of her in a reliable way. So we built this giant LED screen. It was as wide as the truck, probably eight feet wide and four or five feet tall. and then capped it with dovetine so that, and actually I ended up having to take out the back window

because, you know, the pickup truck had a flat back window. Oh, sure. Then we shot on the reflection plate. But so I had the B camera facing forward, which gave her a live image to look at so she could react, you know, as if it was happening. And just amazingly, we were able to find the right lens that fell off on the sides, you know,

in her peripheral vision, like the exact moment that people would come into her sight. So it worked pretty darn well. and put it on the biscuit. You know, it was an electric camera car, you know, slammed all the way to the ground so that it was at the right height, right height. And it worked out great, you know, gave me all interactive light, some reflections, and didn't have the shadows, which is, you know, that's, you know, you can imagine three o'clock in the morning. You're like, oh, boy, I got to pull the, Vince, I got to move the camera three feet back because I've got shadows, you know. It was like, so we had lots and lots of prep time. We spent the entire night on that one shot.

We actually came at lunch the day before, rehearsed for half a day, and then spent the whole day just doing that one shot. Important shot. Very important shot. Very important story-wise. And I wanted to make sure that we were not caught with our pants down. And, you know, I had all the interactive, you know, the thing with Chris Norris, my first AC, a camera, first AC, you know, being able to rack to the guy running in the background up.

I don't know if you notice there's a guy without a leg in the background. and somebody comes running in with the leg, and they're trying to take into the hospital, and then we slowly reveal the fire, and then the bus, and the guy that's actually standing in the middle of the road, I don't know if you notice, he says, look who's turning 50 on his t-shirt.

And it's Hans. He was one of the executive producers on Saul. He's an old, old friend of Vincas, and so they all had photographs of him on their t-shirts. I actually have that t-shirt, and climbing off the bus as it's burning in the background. It was quite an event. Yeah.

Were there any other kind of like new tech solutions that you guys came up with beyond the usual, like we said, resolve or anything like that? Because I feel like now the physical tools that we have are just what a sandbox. Yeah. No, that's true. Well, I'll say that so we had the Ronan 4D, which was fairly new. Everyone's using that now. Yeah. I mean, it has lots.

It has some limitations. some weird limitations. For sure. I find that it kind of does a weird little drift thing that, you know, as people walk with it, which you don't get in Stadicam because it's, you know, it's much more solid. But we pulled the X-9 off of the body and put it on the remote mount, you know, that they have for a stick. You can put it on the end of a boom pole kind of thing. And we put it inside the vending machine where there literally was not an extra millimeter.

I mean, that camera's only this big. You can set it in matrix mode so the heads, you know, kind of strutely. straight back and the lens is sticking out and that thing barely fit into that into that vending machine so you know to get all the image without seeing the camera the image of the reflections of all the chips so the guys interacting with it and making sure the depth of field is short enough so that the woman can walk in and a focus in the background that was a fun one and we weren't exactly sure how it was going to work until we got there on the day which turned out and you got lucky on that one but so that thing was a new tool it was a lot

phone you could put it places. The shot where Ray drives up outside the hospital. We did the same thing. We underslung that X-9 and she drove up to within a couple of inches of the camera with the windshield right there.

I mean, she drives into a close-up. And literally everybody behind the video monitor was going, whoa! You know, every time she drove up because you wonder, like, what just happened? Where did she drove through the dolly? Well, how does that work? But yeah, we had it underslung. over a piece of speed rail

or under piece of speed rail and the dolly grip was there ready to swing it out of the way in case she overshot it a little bit probably still would have done a little bit of damage but she nailed that mark to the quarter inch

she's amazing so yeah that was a fun that that 4D is I think like my buddy Ed Moore he's in the BSC he's got like two of them Goldschmidt

just used it on Last of Us for like a specialty shot but it seemed for something that launched and the general consensus, at least online, was like, that's a dud. Apparently, like, every film crew ended up buying one or renting one and just like, we might need that. Yeah. Yeah, well, it's a good, I mean, it's not a ton of money.

Yeah, exactly. Adolescence is a perfect example. It's not a ton of money. And sometimes when you need a really small profile or to be able to do something where you can't have the body in the way, then it's a great tool. you know it's always about you know the right tool for the job and oftentimes people don't know what the challenges are and we get a shot with it where we were you know ray walked up into the foreground and answered the phone and then we walked over to the bar with her there's all in episode one and there was a wall behind us that was only like six inches behind us you know nobody knows that

we only have six inches in there but that was the only camera that would fit and so we ended up using that on like a little skateboard dolly that the guys built uh that could you know reach out and in and over. Anyway, it was very cool. That was a lot of fun. Yeah. And why, why that camera over, let's say, um, your FX3 or your Canon or your, you know, any of those? Uh, we shot some, well, first off, we shot some tests. Well, first and foremost, I think is because it's, it's versatile. It does a lot of different things. Uh, some of them not so perfectly, but, you know, it's still very, very useful. Um, and also, we know, we know, we should, um, and also, we know, shot test with it and it it cut in with the with the Alexa

mini LF really really well they were blown away that how similar the images kind of looked when they got to the lab so so that was a big one too it it was it was going to cut in beautifully because that's the hard part you know it's like yeah yeah you want to make sure that they don't go oh what what is that you know yeah they're like monitoring and focus pulling tools on that thing just built into the body is pretty nice you know not having to have extra Gack? Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, it can be, you know, sometimes it can be a teeny bit slow. I know

Chris got to a point where he ended up having to anticipate that stuff quite, you know, because again, it's not a, it's not a super high dollar. It's a pro-sumer tool. Yes, exactly, exactly. But, I mean, I love the fact that, you know, we can find fun ways to take advantage of that and do things that we couldn't do any other way, you know, or without, you know, ripping walls out and spend tons of money. So, yeah. Did you, uh, did you throw any different glass on it? I know the Cooks are pretty popular on there? I didn't because it looked, I mean, I used a little bit of diffusion on Ray, but I'm not a huge diffusion go-to person. You know, sometimes, softening the image, there are lots of other ways to do that.

And oftentimes the front glass can create more problems. I mean, absolutely, I'm in all the way when it's the right place. but to carry it all the time is not something I normally do. And I know lots of people, you know, they're trying to soften those sharp lenses and take the edge off the digital and stuff. I use the old glass and stuff like that. But yeah, no, I've always found it doesn't serve me as well

as it kind of detracts sometimes. So I don't lose it on it on. It was, what's her name? I'm blanking all day today. but I was dissuaded from the diffusion thing because just of its lack of oftentimes its lack of personality. It's just fuzzy.

Yeah. And that's never fun. And especially now in post, my friend has a product called DigiDiff and it's as accurate as anything could be. Yeah. And it's a pretty fast plug-in for resolve and you could just, you know, and also the thing that I think is funny is, you know, it'll say like black promis, but who knows?

Yeah. You know, like, no one, just pick your favorite. Who care? Like, if you're going to do it in post, you. Right, exactly. You're not perfectly accurate to a Hollywood black magic. How do you know? I have a friend that was just going through some stuff on the set trying to use smoke.

And one of the actresses was like, no, no, no, I can't, I don't want to have any more smoke. And apparently resolve has a way you can add that in post now, like shafts are of smoke. God, me, holy smokes. It is, it is with the right tuning, shockingly good. Now, I say good. I should say, interesting. Yeah. Who knows if it's, again,

who knows if it's accurate or whatever, but with the right, you know, if you play with it for a while, you can get it looking where your brain thinks it's real. That's amazing. At least in my experience, but. I used to, I work as an electrician. I can't remember the DP's name who literally would smoke up the set and we had two two K Zonans crossing,

in front of the lens. So we were shooting through the xenons, like almost on the flare angle, through smoke. That was his, that was his filter. Jeez. Imagine we're trying to deal with that,

then you've got to bury all that light, like into a four-by, into a four-way. It's like almost into a dark room, practically, to try to get a paniflashy guy. Yeah, I was, wow, that's a lot for a little diffusion.

Yeah. The, uh, no, it was right after, after the, well, I was going to say, it's right after DJ. I talked, but I can't even remember it was. I will say that, unfortunately, we'll have to let you go here soon. But we, you know, I try to keep it to about an hour. You know, we'll have you back on and we can do the two hour, which is the friendship special, you know.

Yeah. Me and the last one was me and Bella Gonzalez and her camera operator, Andrew LaVoy. That almost went for three because we kept doing the like Midwest goodbye. Oh, yeah. All right, we got to go. One more thing. Yeah, yeah. I would love to do one with Paul one of these days with both of us, you know.

Oh, yeah. He's a blast. I mean, he's a lot of fun. And even that, A-camera operator, who's the A-camera operator, now, they all, they both have so much to contribute and talk about. And, you know, they're so involved artistically. And, I mean, obviously, Paul shoots the other episodes did, you know, all the other ones that I didn't do. So, yeah, let's, let's line that up. Yeah, right?

No, let's do it. Definitely. Because I, they would love to do it, I'm sure. Yeah, and Paul's great. But with that being said, we have a new segment on this show because I have an intern. And his name's Jackson, and he's been sitting there. And so Jackson hopefully has a question. He's going to ask, he's about to graduate Arizona State in the film program.

Nice. Nice. Howdy. I'm Jackson. Hey, Jackson. Thank you for the interview or introduction, Kenny. Yeah, I guess Because you've done I was looking at all your work before this interview And like you've done a lot of stuff

Like it's such a It's so cool to see that you've done just so much cool stuff in your life And I guess kind of It's more of a life question But like how did you like scratch that cinematography itch On this new show To like keep life interesting for you If that makes any sense

Yeah I mean it's not hard to do with Vince I have to admit You know, he's always, it's, and oftentimes it's even on the page, you know, he comes up with visual ideas. He's, there aren't that many directors in the world that I've worked with that are so incredibly visually talented and also talented. And, you know, obviously the words are his and working with the actors. So that's, you know, oftentimes are stronger in one place or the other. He is just an absolute pleasure. So he comes up with these ideas.

I mean, obviously it's up to us to kind of come, you know, figure out what the challenges are and solve them. and I mean just from the beginning he you know like I said he enables us to do good work so just knowing it's a Vince Gilligan show you knew that that you could bring these ideas come up with visual ideas try to sell things and and you know and he'd be up for it which isn't that was the case I have to say yeah that's because yeah I was hearing that like Greg Frazier was going to do

like the second the third Dune or the second Batman and like I guess like you coming back to each show like is there has to be some kind of like real, like something baked into like the concrete of what you're making that like keeps bringing you back. That's just so like poetic and like just like it's like I don't know how to explain it. It's just like it's it's more than just film. It's like it's your life that brings you back on these sets together. Well, imagine an environment where you're basically helped to bring your absolute best work. Like you even sometimes go, man, how did I come up with her?

How do we come up with it? You know, because you're enabled to. And that's just, like I said, it's just not always the case. It's the ability to really stretch your legs artistically and tell them that can be tough. So, you know, coming up with different ideas. And also having the support from Vince, you know, that, hey, we've got to build this giant LED screen on the front of a pickup truck. I hope that's okay. And, you know, and he's got your back, you know.

Yeah. Or we're going to use, you know, a crane that's going to drop off to, you know, to handheld or something like that. So he's always up for fun ideas that way, which, again, it just makes it, it makes the job so much more fun. And that's the, that's what keeps bringing me back. Because every time I work with them, you know, we get to do new things and have more fun. And like I said, it's not always the case in other places. Yeah, I think the big thing that he's kind of. of pointing out is like, I think when you're younger and you're getting started, you're doing

everything yourself. So like the love of the art is what fuels you. But once you start finding your crew, you find the people that you work with, then that becomes what drives you. Obviously, the work is the work, but the work can get stale without the people. And that just takes time and reps. And then you get to a point where I am now, you know, people will go, like, can I bring you in and we can, you know, develop this look together? And it's like, I, Without my crew, I got nothing. I don't know how to set the camera up the way Chris does. I don't know how to set the lights all up on the dimmer anymore.

You know, any of that stuff. So, you know, I'm only as good as my crew is. And that's true for all of us, I have to say. They are the unsung heroes, for sure. And, you know, I've always discovered that I learned small, you know, starting in documentaries with a single light, two lights, three lights, that you can always kind of scale that up but it's very hard for somebody that comes up

on a 200-person feature to go how do I scale that down and go do a documentary so that's starting small I think is a gift for us sometimes it really is even though it doesn't feel that it doesn't pay that way for real

I really appreciate your time man and like I said you bring back the fellas and we'll do we'll just have a big hang in the new year Sounds great, man. I'd love that. You guys have a great holiday season. It was a pleasure. Really enjoyed it. Yeah, man. I appreciate your time.

Likewise. All right. Thank you. Bye, bye. Bye, bye. Frame and Reference is an Albot production, produced and edited by me, Kenny Macbillen. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so by going to frame and refpod.com and clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated. And as always, thanks for listening.

Thank you.