Frame & Reference Podcast - 233: "The Pitt" Cinematographer Johanna Coelho

Episode Date: March 12, 2026

The month of return guests continues with the wonderful Johanna Coelho, DP of The Pitt!Enjoy!► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠���⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠F&R Online ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Support F&R⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Watch on YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Produced by Kenny McMillan► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Hello and welcome to this episode 233 of Frame and Reference. You're about to drop into a conversation between me, Kenny MacMone, and my friend Joanna Coelho, DP of The Pit. Enjoy. What was the last time we talked? Like two years ago? Well, I think it was more like that. But did we talk on this show? I don't know if we did. I think we did the rookie. I don't know if we did the pit, right? Oh, yeah, yeah, I meant mine. Yeah, we did the rookie. Yeah, yeah. We did the rookie.

Oh, you mean like, you sure. Yeah, I was like, I don't think we need to pit together. No, no. I don't think so. Yeah, so that was 22. Okay. So that was like four years ago. That doesn't.

Well, I guess I've seen you since then. I was going to feel like that feels like last year. We're going way back, Kenny. Yeah. Okay. The, also significant, not upgrade in the sense of like the show's, better quote-un-quote, but the amount of attention

you guys have gotten for this show. I know some people who've seen the rookie. I feel like everyone's seen the Piff. Yeah, definitely a difference of audience in terms of how large the audience is, which wasn't expected. I mean, you know, we love the show when we're making it.

I mean, we love the script. We love what we were doing on set. But we had no idea that another medical drama like this would get so much attention. in 2025, you know what I mean. It was, especially with the qualities of shows that are out there, we really didn't think it was going to hit that way.

So very blessed and, you know, very happy to get to do stories that people care about and, like, really want to, you know, watch and participate and interact with. And that's the best you can ask when in your craft is doing something that is important to people. So that feels good. Yeah. Well, it's also too, like hopefully everything you make you like. But on one hand, you don't make it so that people will be like, oh, what a good job. But when people do say, oh, what a good job is like, yeah, I liked it too.

You know, it feels nice. Absolutely. And you're right. You know, like I enjoy everything. I do it. And you get different content that the way it hits so it doesn't hit. But sometimes when you do that kind of piece of work that. is adding another effect on audience,

it definitely feels like it feels like YouTube suddenly was even more important than you thought it was when you were doing it. And it makes you want to do more of that. Yeah. Yeah. Why do you think like this style? Because like you said, there's a bunch of medical dramas. Is it, I feel like a lot of medical dramas tend to be more focused on

the sort of internal narrative of the characters, whereas this show is a lot more about the hospital. hospital as a unit. Do you think that's why people are, do you think people, do you think people are sick of like, ah, we know, we know that people fall in love. I want to know, because that's kind of why I liked House. I don't know if you ever watched House a lot, but like, I love House too. Yeah, watched it as well. Yeah. Yeah. Obviously, Hugh Laurie's character is great, but I didn't necessarily care about the interpersonal relations. I was like, I want to know what the story of the week is, you know? Yes, that's true. I think there's a sure amount in the P that made it feel different.

Well, first of all, you know, the format, 24 hours format, like it's continuous. It's so weird to think that actually very, I mean, almost nothing did that but 24 hours, the show, I think, right? So it's like using that format, but then in another genre and medical drama, I think was brilliant. Because then now you force to experience the land of the shift. And I think that just brings another dimension to the audience to really feel for the characters. the intensity of it and the length of it, et cetera. I think also, you know, like you said, story-wise, it's not about who falls in love with and what's the drama and whatever.

It's really about the experience. And, you know, it's, you cannot learn too fast about characters because of the format of 24 hours. So you really learn about that on the go during their work with what they're going to give you here and there. And that's the only way you can, you know, get pieces of each. characters and that thing that gives a craving for the audience to want to know more and more about them but they're stuck in that format so you're just got to grab the face expression you got to grab that one sentence of response they gave you know and all these elements define the characters and I think that's different we don't fit it to the audience said hey you want to know about them

get involved you know get in the middle of it and grab where you can and you rewatch it potentially you might have missed that you know and yeah I think that is a part of you. what makes it different from other medical drama. And then you know you have all the patients and all that, but they always say when we started the show, you know, with the showrunners and John Wiles and the producer, it's not about the medicine. It's about how they interact with the medicine, how, you know, it is like a, you know, everyday thing for them, but also how they care for the patient,

but at the same time how they can't show the care too much. It's all like kind of that, balance of they get to do that every single day and that's the job. And you'll see the patient, you'll follow their eyes, but only for their eyes, not for the patient eyes. And I think that's another difference. You know, you're not, you feel for the patient because the doctors feel for them. And that's the only reason you experience it. So it's all these different things coming together, I think, that made the show stand out differently and maybe made, you know, a bigger hit on how you feel for all this experience. Well, and the pacing of it is so good because there's a fine line between, you know, slow walking information and people wanting more and being like bored.

Like, all right, can we just, can I get the resolution here, please? You've been dragging me along for, you know, a lot of, I can't come off the top of my head, but like certainly experience that on certain shows where you're like, this is a filler episode. I would, let's just get to the end of this, you know, even in like an eight episode series sometimes. Like, you're like, did you really? We could have made it six. Let's make this a movie, you know? That's not true. That's not true.

You know, and in a way, I think in the show, you almost enjoy if you have a slow scene, to be honest. Because I think, you know, it's the contrary. It goes so fast. It never stops. And then you have a scene when I sit down in a room with a patient and you breathe to as a no chance for second. If nothing crazy. And until, you know, sort of like the monitors goes up and something happens or whatever. But these slow those moments are even needed for the audience.

I think like they aren't needed for the doctors, you know, and it's kind of that experience. Yeah. Yeah. Do you guys film, I feel like you told me this before, but for people who don't know, what was the first season, like eight months? Shooting was where on six months, six months and a half. Yeah. So for a chaotic show, and especially one where like you don't have marks, you know,

you're kind of half documentary sort of style. how much prep is necessary to make sure that the experience of shooting it is not as chaotic as what we're seeing. Yeah, and I know we always define it. It's our organized chaos, baby, choreographed chaos. And it feels like chaos, but it's extremely choreographed in the way. Every single piece, cross is made, you know, camera movement, everything is forked through and really organized on set so it can work that way. But the funny thing is, you know, because I do every single episode, I actually don't really get breathed between episodes at all. I'm just part of the shoot constantly. And I think it's almost needed for this because of the continuity of it.

So I remember everything we did, how we shot it, tracking it, because we also shoot in order, which is very helpful for many reasons on the show. So, you know, the one of episode one would be seen one, two, three, four. And then the two would be, you know, five, six, seven, eight. So as much as we can, and it's pretty accurate on, you know, that order like this. We keep it in order. It's good for the actors. It's good for everyone to track what's happening in the scene, the emotion level background. Because, you know, our set is an open, you know, glass, depth thing, you see, everything.

So if you start, you know, the scene are continuous. You keep going from one scene to the other. If you start switching around the scenes, good luck tracking the background there. And they do, you know, we have, it had happened. We had to like add a little scene, you know, in between. So they had to like rethink where the background was and stuff. But it's a giant job to replace every single element on that set. And we think, you know, where it was, when, how, etc, etc.

But so prep wise really, I have some prep at the beginning before we start shooting. but the prep really is understanding the scene whose perspective is this and every single shots or you know approach for the scene is based on that who are we feeling for or what is really the scene about again because it's not so precisely about the medicine it's about how they created that scene and that medicine so these characters could interact and have a moment like this so we can learn about that and keep progressing So on the day, while we're shooting, you know, we have a private rehearsal with the first AD, the director, the actors, and me.

And, you know, we do the blocking and then we discuss the scene, you know, who's scene is this, who do we want to follow, etc, etc. And then we'll define our shot like this. So a master shot is not like wide where you see everything and you start this way. A master shot is beginning to the end, which character's perspective we're going to follow. That's how we design it. So, you know, we often try to do a shot that you won't. We're trying to give an option that you don't always have to cut because you want to feel that trap, that intensity. And as the goal, right, now we also know we have to cut because it goes so fast.

Sometimes you don't have time to turn the camera fast enough to see what's happening back there. Or it might feel, you know, off and you don't want to throw the audience at. of this. So cuts are important that way, but they feel invisible because they are in moves that match completely together. I mean, as much as we're trying. So this is really how we think about it. So we design that first master shot that is about perspective. And so then you'll be leading the character and it turns so Gamer goes behind them, you know, we see everything they see and then, you know, it turns back on, we grab back a face and walk. So it's kind of this idea how much of the scene actually we grab the full scene from point A to point B, you know, of the, the, you know, of the

this perspective. And when we do that, we always think about the reverse. So if I move the camera that way, you know, sometimes in the front and then in the back, I have to think all the way around how we're going to do it on the reverse, because you have to keep the line between people talking so it doesn't throw the audience out, you know. Even though the camera keeps moving, we're trying to track eyeline and most characters important to woo. And so we think about all this thing as a puzzle, really. And I have at least a good idea of the first two shots. So the first, the first master that moves the reverse of the master and then we'll clean up, hey, we really need to see this and that. So then we get PCs if we need to, et cetera, et cetera. This is

more for sure that are moving through the space and all that. We'll approach from my scenes a little differently, still in the perspective aspect, but you know, it would be more around the table so you might not be able to move as much, etc, etc. But in the general idea, that's how we approach it. And so after we bring everyone, we show them the scene, and then we talk with the curators about the shots we want to do. So the prep is on the golf. The prep is, there we go. Here we go. He's the blocking, the shot ad design on the blocking purely,

which is amazing because you keep adapting to everyone. And that's why you don't do marking. You don't do any of this. You just dance with them. You just move with them. They really don't have any limitation. We don't have limitation because we can see everywhere. There's nothing on the ground lighting-wise.

all moving with us. So it's about what do they want to do and what's the best shot to capture that. And then we think about all the choreography, the background cross, the lighting, because all the lighting gets adjusted as we go as well from the ceiling. So my chief lighting technician would talk with his programmer

and adjust the lighting as they move. So it's invisible, but technically, you know, the exposure is adjusting as we go. So you get a little more on their face, et cetera. We also have, you know, onboard lights on the camera that are fully controllable, left and right side of the madbox. And then we also sometimes have a polite, a dot-dash that will follow us for, you know, of a situation to feel you know anything like that.

But there's no limitation. So it's really how much can we adapt to the dance, to the choreography. And then we work with the assistant director's team to really coordinate all the background. Or we work with, you know, makeup for prosthetic work because we have to ask, you know, can we start shooting the prosthetic now. Do we need to avoid it? You know, is there a special effect involving the prosthetic? Because in that word again, of feeling like everything is continuous, we want to make sure that we can show them, but what they're doing in the prosthetic, go back to them. But sometimes there are limitations with depending on the prosthetic work, though they are

truly incredible at giving us something that we can interact with in more moving shots like this. So that's awesome. But yeah, so we're taking all these elements in consideration. Again, that's a puzzle that really is done in private we are sold. So, you know, sometimes they're pretty short, sometimes they're pretty fast. But basically, from the showing to the crew to us shooting, we often are within 15, 20 news. And that goes pretty fast. But we're shooting about, you know, between 8 and 10 pages a day in 11 hours or less. Yeah.

So who is it then? who needs the most time then like in that 20 minutes like because I imagine you know if you can yeah everything's handheld around the ZG or whatever so you can mentally just go like all right the camera goes here camera goes here whatever who needs the most time to like prepare in that 15 minutes to do the show is it the lighting text is it the sound person like who do we need to accommodate in that short amount of time you know it's funny on season one I remember someone from the prop department coming to me and say, you know, before we starting filming, he's at 1, he's like, I'm really stressed out because we always have time to do our prop works because we always wait off lighting and camera. But it sounds like the way we're going to approach this. We're not going to wait on you guys. So we're going to be waiting on props.

And he was very stressed out about it. And, you know, the truth is they are so fast. And they have so many props to set up and, you know, in store, like everything is broken on that set. But yeah, sometimes we have reset for props, you know, or reset for prosthetic and makeup, all of that. This is the kind of thing we have to wait on sometimes. So then also background placement, though they are so fast to set them up as well.

In general, you'll find all of us being ready at the same time and maybe waiting for an element or two. But yeah, we don't really wait on camera and lighting just because the time we talk about the shot, you know, my shape lighting technician is with us and, and talks, you know, with the programmer, you know, from the ear text and really, like, letting him know what are the adjustment during the scene. So everything is happening at the same time. Why we do that, you know, the bagong is being placed. Like, if you see us on set between the showing and the first rehearsal, it looks like chaos, most likely, you know, because we

all doing our thing at the same time. But then, suddenly, it's like, all right, rehearsals up, and then we all stuff. And then you kind of see it happening. And of course, Of course, you know, it's not perfect on the first one. This is where we also do first take, et cetera. But because now we all see what we each did in our department, trying to communicate as much with the other ones. And then we see what works, so it doesn't work. And now we make the notes and the adjustment.

So. Yeah. But I'm sure it's insane when you see us. I was going to say it, it would be fun to like, you know, click a GoPro up in the like corner of the room just to watch it like in real time, watch that whole process. That'd be very educational. Actually, maybe makes it on this.

Yeah, that'd be a good YouTube video. The, uh, something, I don't know if you talked about this in a different interview, but something that had occurred to me like you're saying, it's, you know, it's one day. So all the background is the same, the whole time, all the actors. Um, do they come up with their own little like micro narratives and stuff going on in the background or are they just kind of like, all right, you walk to there, then you walk back. Like, do they get to be their own little characters for the season? I, this is one of my very things to what.

Chonset, you know, we found down with my department and start watching what they do with background and I just love hearing the stories they give them. It's a full movie happening there. I keep saying, you know, we should do a documentary on the background of the picco. That's absolutely incredible. Now, they are like little stories that made them, you know, the reason why they go from, you know, left to right or across the center or whatever, you know, they didn't have this story. And also they give them a progression for the show. So a lot like you're right, a lot of the background. would be there from beginning to the end,

which is really rare and incredible on the show. You know, you'll have a switch almost all the time, and they really are part of the family because they were us from the beginning to the end, and some of the background is the same than last year. Anyone who played staff from the hospital, et cetera, not patient, but staff, right? A lot of them were with us last year already.

So we, you know, we spend so much time all together, and they are so good at understanding the show and being very mindful of the camera as well. I think they already learn how to also dance between the cast and the camera, and then you have song and you delight. I do have some, you know, behind the scene that will come out soon

where you can see actually how we do the shots and you see everyone behind the camera, the group, and it's kind of hilarious. But, you know, I think background is absolutely incredible. They reset themselves and, you know, they have their only their story They undertake it so seriously. And they are a huge part of this show.

And this show feels real and really gives you the immersion also because of the background. I did want to know, too, earlier you had mentioned the lighting thing, how it's all in the ceiling and all that. When they're adjusting, this is so nerdy. But like when they're adjusting the light, is it like a, what's the process? Is it like wherever the scene is, that's it? I'm making this up 100%. And then for the further back, does it like scale down to 10%? Is there like pockets that you're trying to build?

And especially in a, I know you guys spent forever trying to find like the proper white to paint stuff. But, you know, it's even up top, white walls, you know, people are all roughly wearing the same stuff. Where are you building contrast and how are you building that to keep it from looking too documentary, too stale? Yes, I think the cinematic aspect of the show comes from a few things. I think it comes from the combination of a full frame camera and then the lenses we shows that are the Engineer Optimo Primes combined with the ultra-compact zooms. So that gives a feeling that is already cinematic. And then we built a lot that gives you also a contrast in there while keeping a nice range

for everyone. You know, we have a lot of diversity of skin tones, but also we have a lot of white walls. So it's kind of finding that perfect balance of nothing looks too bright, but nothing looks too flat, you know. They also are wearing black scrubs. So you naturally already have like a giant contrast between the white walls and the scrubs, which is nice when you think about it. Because I think that really makes them stand out a little bit on the set. And I think that creates natural contract. Now lining wise, a lot of our lines are the trofers we have built in the ceilings.

And we control everything. It's our own LED strip lights. It was cushal lights we're using. And so everything is like by color, controllable. Though we keep everything perfectly wide balance, I think we're shooting at 4,000 Kelvin. And that's also what we have in camera for the lights are also at 4,000. And so the idea when we design a shot and they move forward. for example, you know, Kilan car offers,

my chief engineering technician, will raise all the lights forwards, right? So then when you film them, you know, forwards, you have more feel coming in because it's so topy, ideally it's deeper and more sending back that way. So how helps you feel like everything that way? So if they move forward,

it'll adjust the exposure of each lights, you know, as they go and kind of follow that choreography that way. Now, sometimes again, with diversity of skin tones, We are mindful of who's under these lights. And some of them are going to need more than others. So we're trying also to be careful that if there's two people working, maybe aside, we have more light and the other side really less.

It's really taking care of the skin tone we're dealing with, where they're moving and where they stop. So sometimes, too, you know, like if you're under the central station, if someone stops right under the light, if they light or skin and they'll take it way more than someone else next to them. So we're trying also to make sure that we compensate that for the other person, et cetera, et cetera. There's a natural contrast within the set as well.

There's some areas that are even darker than others. Though funny enough, you know, we embrace them, but sometimes there's a tendency for blocking where the actors end up in the dark corners and that became a little bit of nature for us in time. And again, we don't want to... Bring in the dash. Wow. And we bring in that, but then, you...

it might look too like different and jarring. So we ended up actually kind of within the first season and the second, changing a little bit of lighting on set, adding some lights when they were not. But we're able to keep them very low and still keep that contrast. And sometimes again, we did keep it darker corners. So it gives you that natural contrast feeling. But it is a lot of little elements that way.

And, you know, we've embraced contrast in more in something than over. you know, if they are really in the ER working, the truth is in a natural, like, lighting environment of an emergency room, you would have, like, kind of lights everywhere filling in and you would feel intense that way. And then, you know, they might have a more intimate scene with a patient and then you get a more contrast there. And a lot of set elements helps you getting that contrast. So if you have curtains, they might block the light a little bit, you know, on the wall. Or we use a lot of the headboard lights over the beds, too, you know, to feel in. So sometimes they will be. be more like a wrap around, et cetera, et cetera. So I feel like for specific things that are more quiet and or dramatic, we'll be able to have a different kind of lighting.

Just because naturally with the environments and the elements of the room, you'll get that as well, but we embrace it more. Yeah. Do you, you know, with the, well, and you can, I saw, you know, you're talking about the mat box lights. You know, when you get up real close, you can obviously very easily dictate. Is that me?

Oh, I thought you were getting a phone call. My phone decided to jump into my headphones. Hold on. Oh. Hello? Are you there? Me or do you phone call? Okay, good.

No, yeah, the phone took over. Okay, sorry. You can control easily the contrast when you get up close, you know, just turn one on and then at least you've got one side looking nice. And these onboard lights have been so helpful, especially, you know, with just right over the shoulders a lot of time. This is really part of our visual language. So like you're saying, you know, wherever we are on which shoulders, we can decide which onboard use because you don't want to just light the back of the person. So you use the left one, right? And then you get a little more of a rat than on their face, et cetera.

So this, we've actually upgraded our onboard lights on the mailbox in season one to season two. We made them a little different, different shake. They used to be rectangular. And we realize that we're doing it. Sometimes you want to get a little less on the back of someone. If you need it both for intensity, then you would get a little bit on the back of the person. So we designed then this little shade going on there. You know, I'm probably customized them. And so we're in a little designing something way more permanent for season two.

Now they're wrong. They have the little thing that you put on them if you need the shader on, etc. So they've been really fun to play with and they're so helpful. And, you know, you can take them off really fast. But if someone they stick out too much in the shot, because you have the other camera right there and you're trying to, like, you know, avoid each cameras in the shot.

So sometimes you can just put them out like this and then put them back home. And they all controlled by the lighting programmers. So this is amazing. Yeah. Yeah. You know, when when picking a lens, because you're only using ostensibly the one,

obviously, I guess three. But what made you gravitate towards the ANGNU over anything else? that's like, you know, if you're just defining the look of a film or a show, usually it's like, oh, we'll, we have a whole selection. You picked one. Was that, was that a hard decision or were you just like, oh, I like to look at that. We'll go with that. I enjoy that one. I actually did a lot of testing. I tested a lot of primes and zooms. And there was a few requirements I was looking for. Well, first of all, I knew I wanted to put ACAM on primes and decam on a zoom. And the reasoning for that was I wanted to stick to a visual language with

precise sizes on lenses, you know, for ACAM in the way I didn't want to like just go for a full range of zoom, you know, and kind of going random. Like I wanted to make sure we had like a precise idea of each lens we're going to use. So I wanted to stick to primes for that reason. And we mostly use the 50. We use the 75 millimeter for a more intense. you know, emotion or you want to isolate them more, anything like that. And now sometimes we're using the 60 because when they're across counters, you know, the 50s are your language, but we get a little too far when we want sometimes. So that's where the 60 came very handy.

So that was one of the reasons. The other reason for Primes tool was we are handled fully on the show. And we're doing the ZG as well, which is a new tool that you can use on the Steadicam arm and Silicon Vest. But we need something that was light. So considering that I want the zoom and the primes to be pretty close look-wise in the way I didn't want to have a lot of matching in colors or even on set or anything like that, I wanted something that was pretty close so we wouldn't have.

Because with a white set like this, any shift of colors is noticed so fast. And it's very, very difficult sometimes to match them perfectly. So there was a requirement now because we fully fully. handle even on B camera. The requirement that the zoom needs to be light as well. So right now is like, I need a zoom primes that match. I need light primes. I need a very light zoom as well, but does the range of the primes because the idea of the zoom is to be able to grab moments. So it's never to use the actual zoom, but it's able to match them the 50, the 60, the 75 on the second camera. And the reason for that is sometimes the B camera will grab two shots in once,

which means the scene is like five pages or whatever it is. And, you know, Amy Suli car, the camera creators will start a shot on the first part of the scene, then run around and go get another shot to the second part of the scene and whatever it is. So I needed to be able to switch prime without switching trangs in the next sense. And so that's where the zoom came handy. There was this decision. So that actually limited right now already the, you know, in the testing that weight, you know, The matching part already limited a lot. And then, you know, I ended up, I think, being between the engineer and another type of

lenses. And I went with the engineers because I loved how they look on different skin tones. I love how the glass was hearing the way. It feels so realistic, but it had a very cinematic look at the same time. So it was really that balance of like, it doesn't look like, you know, you see. still feel like it looks real and you can see details, but it's not like, you know, too dirty in the way that it doesn't feel cinematic, right?

So I really love that. It's not a K-35 wide open. Exactly. And it was a very, very close match to the ultra-compact zoom from engineer as well. So and the ultra-contact zoom is so light. It's actually almost the weight of a prime. So these were all these elements, you know,

and I just love the glass. I even tested the glass actually. Once I kicked it, I thought about maybe using, you know, Hollywood black magic filter or something. I just thought about it. Just wanted to take a look at it. He did some testing on set and we already had started to be at our ceiling and truffers. And everything's like, even with the ape, like everything was gloomy because we have so many

light physically in the shot. And I was like, that we can't do that. And I just love how it looks purely, to be honest. I think like the glass just gives exactly what you want to see. And any addition to that would take it away. So yeah, that's really the glass pure and I think it was absolutely perfect for the show. Especially with Alex and Alex. Yeah, you know, you brought up the B cam Zoom thing.

I was wondering if you could kind of help me understand the how you decide when to cut to that B cam and like when how to make it match sort of emotionally. You know, because especially when we're almost living on that, that A cam, when, when, when, When does it make sense to get cut to that B cam? And also, is your B cam operator shooting the whole time and you're picking and they're just trying to find shots? Or are they more specialized? Well, shooting in the world time more in the way, we have ideas of shots we need.

So we always use B cam because we need a shot. And we like, I think we can do it at the same time as the ACAM shot. So it's more, but it's not more like, let's grab where we can. It's more like we need that two shots and it's going to be on and over. So let's have you, like, you know, she would hide somewhere and go and come out and get that to shot. So we don't have to add another setup because again, that's the thing. We have a very tight schedule, lots of pages. We don't want to have the actors because they do the full scene entirely every time.

We don't want to have to do that too many times. So she's able to come get overshot we needed without having to add a setup. That's the way we're thinking about it. She doesn't shoot all the time. So the situation like where the A camera is really. going 360 and multiple times and you know there's just nowhere for her to come in and hide or anything like that so then we won't use her or sometimes we just don't need another shot like we're in situations like no and we don't place bkam just to place it you know it's like do we want that shot

and sometimes like no that two shot doesn't make sense because they're two spread apart and doesn't give us anything so we're not going to get her doing that sometimes she's been in a situation where you know we have multiple characters and so she's able to you know we need multiple cameras and so she's able to you know we need multiple camera lights for someone is over the shoulders of someone and she's doing over over the shoulders because it's a double perspective to that person or whatever it is. So she'll go do another over the shoulders at the same time. But same thing, she might not be able to follow the full move. She might have to come in at specific points. You know, if you know in a room with a patient or even in a trauma scene in

the trauma room, he'll often be here for the full thing because then you're really replacing two cameras and getting, you know, perspective at the same time as much as you can. Again, to avoid like multiple setup. Or if you're working with prosthetic, you want to make sure to get as much of the prosthetic as you can before it gets damaged because it's overuse, et cetera, et cetera. So this kind of scene should play whole scene because they have more similar shots between A and B. Yeah. I, you know, I just looked down on my notes and I had a, I forgot I screwed up a lighting, or I didn't screw up. But I forgot to ask a lighting thing, which was, um, because.

Because it takes place in the whole day, but you're in a windowless room, are you adjusting the lights to show us what time a day it is? Or are you just rocking that 4,000 all day? And you're like, they'll know because it's episode five. That's a great question. The ceiling lights are the same. They were show. And, you know, there was a conversation about it on season one.

We did enough research. We talked about two real hospital and emergency rooms and NIA. then what happens at night? Do you guys keep exactly the same lighting? Would you adjust the lighting? And if it's in the emergency room, we would never dim down the lighting or adjust it because you need the same lighting all day long.

It's 24 hours. So they said they would do that on the other floor, you know, like if that is not busy, but the emergency room doesn't, dim, doesn't turn up. So we stick to that rule, and I thought that was very important. So it kept that, we keep that realistic feeling. Now, we have very few windows

that deep on the outside, word on our set. And yes, we actually are adjusting the lighting with the time. So we always track what time it is. You know, we make a plan at the beginning of the season of when, you know, we would go into, you know, midday, sunset, twilight, night. So we track that and we make the adjustment little by little. And there's also some windows in the waiting room in our stage. So we do the same thing there. We track it. So we adjust the color, the intensity of Sometimes we use the position of it as well to get harder shadows or lower light or anything like that. And you know, we make sure to match it to with our location.

So we're trying to always make sure in a location that we have a tendency, you know, when we shoot in that ambulance bay outside where the ambulance arrive, that's a location at an hospital in Los Angeles. And so lighting wise, when you run, for example, into sunset or anything like that, we're trying to create sometimes. you know, harder light's coming in. So you feel like something is coming, even though we might not be able to show you that sunset ourselves. So we're trying to track everything. So it matches on our set.

It matches on that time of the continuous 15 hours. And yeah, it's kind of a little puzzle as well. You know, sometimes we get on location first. And so that's easy too much on the set. But sometimes we do the set first. We kind of have to remember that when you're going to go on location. So, yeah. But it's the fun part of it.

So truly, it's like tracking all this little things and and making sure they make sense, you know. Yeah. When, you know, one thing that I always I guess I shouldn't say love, but it's helpful is when you're given a situation where you can't, like there's things you can't change, you know, and, and as I always quote, I think Adam Savage, I doubt he came up with it, but he, but he was like, those types of situations hack decisions off your, hack options off branches off your decision tree. You know, if you can't do that, great. You know, I don't have to think about it anymore. And with a show like this where it's so linear in time, you know,

there's a lot of things you can't change. It wouldn't make any sense. Yeah. Do you find that those branches off your decision tree have been a welcome change to your usual work? Or have there been frustrations with like, oh, if only, you know, if we had like a different location or a different scene or like where we could control this a little bit more or change. Yeah, I mean, this was one of my concern originally. I was, am I going to still be creative on a show that's continuous shooting in the same set with the same actors, you know?

And we're shooting in our stages 95% of the time. So this was a concern. How do you make sure you stay creative, tell the story correctly, and we're getting, you know, yourself in a routine that you're not pushing yourself over every time? And what I discovered on this show that really, I think, open myself up as a director of photography is literally, you know, not having funny enough, having walls everywhere. So you don't really have walls you cannot see anymore or anything like that. It's a full playground.

And in that full playground, blocking is, you know, endless. And blocking being endless ends up being a blocking that's always different. The blocking is always different, different. different characters interacting with each other, with each other's. And what happens with different blocking, because we base the shots on the blocking, you never get the same shots. So what was very interesting, it's like the choreography, you know, the way we think about it, the way we move the camera. The anger sure probably ends up being the same sometimes, but never for long because the camera moves all the time.

So I discover I never do the same thing twice. And, you know, sometimes when you have a scene with a patient in the room, it's a little more limited. But the emotional level and the blocking changes, so you can't rise to change, you know, naturally. It's not something you have to think too hard about. It's like, okay, whose perspective it is this time and what do they feel? And that design your shots again. So you never end up in the same thinking process. You have to think differently.

And naturally the shots become different. And I think that's what's amazing about the show. It's not you design the shot and then you fit your characters in. It's like you design the character. there's moving and you fit your shot in that and everything has to fit around what they experience and what they do and and i'm i'm you know amazingly um so excited for every single scene i treat them differently every time and i find them new in their own way and i i didn't get bored i mean you see after you know like this is two seasons but i uh i've been adding so much from truly designing the

shots and then you know all the lighting then is we've got in such a good ribbon everything things moves around. Sometimes we will run into limitation that has happened, but we often like then they're like, oh, we have to be more creative and find solution. We've experienced, for example, on season two, you know, you start focusing more on details sometimes. And so we have this headboard lights with patient on the bed. And sometimes when we get the camera just behind the patient shoulder, get, you know, with the white gowns they're wearing as patient. Actually, like, we're getting out too hot. So we designed and created this, this thing that just goes like right under the headboard like just to cut it off of their back,

etc. So we keep inventing new tools to help us out that are not, you know, the number of flags or anything like that. And that's also how we keep contrast, by the way, back to that question. But we've been designing tools that help us control the lighting in a full different way that I've ever done on other shows. And in that sense, too, actually, the ceiling lights, you know, if they stop right under or sometimes, you know, it's a condensary, and you actually don't see the ceiling in the shot.

But my key grip, Max Thorpe, has designed these frames that are magneted. So we can just magnet frames on the ceiling. And even if it, let's say, it has happened that we forget one, you wouldn't see it because the tile design around the frame is the tile of the ceiling. So they honestly kind of are invisible. And so, you know, people stop under it and it's a light diffusion and it has to be on the lighting. And same for like cans, you know, on the side, sometimes carry them soap in the can. and we had this little magnetine cups that just goes.

And so it's been so fun to think about all these tours and think differently. You know, it's like you cannot have any gear on the ground. So you have to think completely differently of how to approach it, keep it cinematic, and you adapt to everything else. It's, you know, we adapting nonstop to the actors. And obviously, that's so good at adapting with us as well. But in the way, you're not limiting them. You have to be creative to go with them.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the problem, I've said this a bunch, but the problem solving of cinematography is oftentimes the most fun. And I imagine when you're in a situation like that where you constantly are problem solved, but it's like a similar problem. It doesn't reach the level of like annoying and stressful, like doing documentary a lot of times, annoying and stressful, more annoying, is when you're going to interview someone and they're like, well, this is our conference room. That's where we do interviews and you're like, no, like not the conference room again. Like, is there a window? No?

Okay. Yes. Yeah, when I was reading about those like 3D printed thing, I got, this is 3D printer right here. And I need to find a space for it. I don't. It just lives in the middle of my office. But I've been printing all kinds of little solutions, you know, like a lot of times it's cable management.

But when I had read about that, I was like, shit, I should make some, I should steal some of these ideas. I remember I was talking to the guy who shot the office, blanking on his name right now. But he was saying that because they were using the traditional, you know, strip light kind of thing, they had this sort of wedge that had reflective material in it and then diffusion on one side. It was kind of like a book light. And they would magnet that to the overhead, you know, fluorescence. Oh, yes. And that way it would push it one side so they could like put it a couple of lights over, snap it in. and then the character would get some shape

because it redirected it that way. I was like, that's smart. Oh, that's cool. That's really cool. Yeah. Well, I love all these ideas, you know, and these tools. It's again, I think that's the exciting thing to do something different that pushes you to do something that you're not used to.

And that's where the creativity goes further, right? You have to innovate. You have to do things differently. And I think that's the exciting part as well. You just keep pushing yourself in the other direction that you used to. Yeah. Yeah. Does your background in science help this at all, or is that taking a backseat and

you're just full cinematography brain? I am sure it's been helping. I mean, you know, I think there's so many things that are science to understand in cinematography, just exposure, lighting, colors, optics, you know, all of that is science. And we live in science constantly to make the arts. So, I mean, in cinema, at least. So I feel like it's definitely been helping. I think a lot, I love science.

I mean, I love when I was doing science. I was a very good science student. But I love art and I love stories. And I think cinematography was the perfect combination of one of this. Because I think you need both. I don't think you need both. I think if you have both, it's helping you in a way, you know. But then you can just have crew, but really, you know,

is here to support you in the things you don't know, etc. But I like to understand. And I like to have the ID and then go find the science to make it happen. You know, it's not more like, I have the science, so I'll make it on that idea. You know, it's like, all right, what do we want to do? What's the creation? And I think that's the hardest part. The hardest part is to get the good idea.

Once you have the good idea, you can easily find the science and the truth to make it happen. But it's all part of the fun process, too. Yeah. The, you guys have to have the best focus pollers in the world, right? We have very good focus followers, absolutely. Hey, you're just going to get a rough idea of what's going on here. Have fun. At least you gave him a T4.

Yeah, I do, actually. I do want the full frame too. You know, there's already so much such as shallow depth of field, and I didn't want it to be too crazy either, especially if we do to a 75 millimeter. But also, it's like to give them a shot. There's no, there's maybe one way or so. There's no marks.

There's no thing. It keeps moving around. Like, well, what are we going to do if the shot is out of focus the whole time? You need to be able to give them a shot. But I also think, like, fist up wise, it felt right, also look-wise, you know. So it was kind of that perfect balance. And yeah, it gives them a shot that, you know. But they're extremely good storytellers, you know.

Then is our Kirsten Sello, Jacob Depp. And we also had Sarah Galli this year. And the amazing storytellers, because a lot of the stories told by the focus on this show. Yeah. I know in the pilot you had a lot that then you changed for. the season for the first season. A, I'd love to know what you changed, but B, were there any other changes

between season one and season two? Not just a lot, but just in general. Like things that you learned on the first season, you're like, all right, let's solve those issues and push that forward. Absolutely, yes. So we did change the lot from season one to season two. The lot is now more contrasty, actually.

So a little more contrast. But also, there's a bit more colors in there, You know, we like what we were in season one, but I wanted to push it even more into the realistic aspect. And I felt the skin were a little desaturated, maybe on season one, especially as we went further and further. And I think, you know, we feel more the richness of the skin tones on this season. It looks even more real, the colors. And that's what we're aiming for. So a little more contrast that like make them stay a little bit more, but also the skins are reading better.

You know, it feels a little more real. And the lot also has been working one or they were in a different situation if we go on location or anything like that. You know, we adjusted, of course, if we have to, but it's more, it's more, it's been elevating, I think, the show in a way that we wanted to go into that direction. Another change we did was we brought an additional operator in this year. And the reason for that, it was a very new situation, I think, I don't know if it's really been done before, but because there's a very, no waiting time on the show really. When we shoot, we just, you know, decide, you know, when you start, we keep going. And so it's physically hard for the operators, but specifically, you know, for the A camera operators, Erdem Ertal, and especially if there's a lot of the

ZG, and we do, you know, the text can be pretty long because it's a full choreography and we go again and again and again and then we move on to the shot and five minutes later we shoot the next shot, you know, so there's very few resting time. And on season one, you know, He was absolutely incredible and we didn't want to, you know, have him like being exhausted like this. So we decided to bring an alternating operator for him. So they could then share more the load. So another person that could do the ZG as well, you know, another study came up. And that, you know, also can do that obviously.

And so they've been sharing the scenes this year. So it gives them break each. So I don't alternate them on the shots. I tell them them on the scenes, which was been, you know, which was really helping. well, rest time and then being more fresh when they come back from the next scene. But you also give them time, you know, to study the scene. Because there's the thing too. They don't have a lot time to study the scenes because we keep going, right?

So they can study the scene because there's so many people talking and who and when and how, you know. So it's been giving all these advantages that made you see them easier and better. So still two cameras, but a third operator. That's correct. Yeah, we don't have any additional assistant cameras, anything like that. no additional camera walls themselves. It's just the operators. And he comes with his own vest and arm,

and they share the ZG is the same because the camera is on ZGM. So it's very practical. Yeah. Yeah. I think I interrupted you. You're going to say something else. I can't remember if there was like something else.

Shit, my bet. Oh, we try to be better too on the moves this season. You know, I watched a lot of what we did on season one and what was used or not on the end. edits and really thought about the shots and the immersion aspect of it. And I think we try to be better at the immersion this season, more controlled in an invisible way. You know, so we stay more invisible, but you can see more at the right time,

et cetera, because it's that fine balance where you don't want to anticipate because if the person doesn't turn the head, you don't want to just go and reveal, right? It's cannot want to stay in that perspective, but they take you there. So we try to get better at that, better at the transition from, you're going to. going to one moment to the other. We're using more background for that. So if it's empty and we have to travel, we use a background moving that takes us to the next thing,

stuff like that. So we just embrace everything we learn on season one and we try to push it over in the immersion aspect on season two, basically. Yeah. And does that immersion come from closeness or is it more about like, like how are you manifesting that? Yes, closeness. I mean, we're very close to the actors.

And again, to really is a little bit of the behind the scene, but you see the cameras right off. So it's really being, you know, in the middle of it, you see them crossing camera right in front like this, you know. And it's that feeling that you're really in the middle of it because we literally are in the feet of it with the camera. So we got better in that closeness,

we got better at the mood, we got better at the perspectives, and I think we got better at being invisible because that was also all the growth. It's like we, I've heard before that people think we kind of going there and capture stuff. But it's so precise and choreographed. And it's very hard because you have to, if the backbone cross at the wrong time and then the camera is too slow, then we can be at the right place at the right time. So everything is time so perfectly.

But I love that people say that because that's our goal. We're trying to be as invisible as we can. And I think it's working. Yeah. Yeah. People think that you're actually filming something. Man, it must be hard to shoot real life. And you're like, no.

Maybe we're just grabbing things in there, you know? Yeah, yeah. But, hey, I take that as a compliment. Yeah. You know, in that vein, as someone who's pretty much exclusively a doc DP now, is there anything you've learned on this shoot that might apply to documentary work? I never had this question before. I think that's very interesting because it's more, I did have a dog background.

And I tried to bring that. into the pit actually, but now thinking the reverse, I haven't thought about that. Very interesting. I'm sure I'll take it's hard because it's so choreographed. You don't really have a chance in dog to choreograph like this. But maybe I think data instincts, I would say, you know, and it's funny because I'm not operating on the show, right? So I'm just watching the two monitors, but I know the set so well that I can tell exactly if they need to go here more right or left or forward and I can tell

where the counter is and all that. We know the space. so much at this point. I think in dark, what I would take out from this is being able to have like my ears and my eyes maybe further at the same time,

you know, scan more the room while maybe I'd be filming in the dark so I can wrap things better and faster that I might not always have noticed before, you know. I think there's a certain wonder for the space

and the people feeling the space a lot with the show that I would probably take in the documentary with me. Yeah. Well, and I'm also thinking, like my, the team I work with primarily now, because it's like the same people, but different

movies, they have a certain style that they like, which does, it's not like the pit, but, you know, a lot of dirty frames, a lot of not traditional kind of dock coverage. Yeah. And I imagine that doing a show like this kind of teaches you like, what is a good dirty frame versus one that's like kind of just there's something in the way, you know? Well, absolutely. I think there's something dangerous about that on the dog, though, is that, you know, our actors are trained and by on our train now, we're being aware of the camera. And if you're that close on the dock, I think you're taking a big way that they're going to keep hitting, you guys going to hit each other's, you know. That's the only thing I would be worried on the dock is that people that are not used to cinema if you're making might not, you know, have an awareness of camera.

And if you took her in my head, it's true. Yeah, that's the only tricky part. being given if it's not train. The big one I've actually found is that the, at least what I've been doing is that the subjects are too aware of where I am. And I'll try to get, I'll try to like get an over the shoulder. And they always go, oh, my bad. And get out of the way. I'm like, no, stop.

Like, just stay. Ignore me. Everyone's trying to clean the frame up. I'm like, you know. I keep, yeah. You know, I have a, I have a Patreon now and there's four people in it. But I try to let people ask questions. One person did have a question about, you know, a lot has been said about, oh, everyone wears scrubs so that you hide.

But wearing a uniform of any form, you know, kind of even the way that you dress when you go on set for a more traditional film, you know, you've got your puffy vest or whatever. You know, you've got your favorite shoes. You know, there's kind of a psychology to the way you dress. Does wearing the scrubs and being in that kind of changing. the way you think about the scene or is it strictly for camouflage purposes? I think the idea of Scrubs was for camouflage purposes, you know, originally, which we did have situation where we catch maybe one of the grip that's putting a camera in the reflection, but you think it's just someone passing that, you know, because they're in Scrubs as well,

which is, I think it's a brilliant concept when you think about it. And I think it became a bit something else when I think about it. I mean, first of all, we all love wearing these scrubs. And it's kind of hard to imagine, but it's so comfortable. It has pockets everywhere. And you don't have to think every morning at 5 a minute where you're going to wear. So it's kind of awesome. We truly actually are enjoying the scrubs.

Now, there's something else that's happening with it. Us wearing the scrubs and the wall crew is wearing the scrubs. And we have like different colors because there's different colors as well on the actual show. It makes a unity, like we all unify, you know, together. So you can't really tell whose crew, whose background were the actors. I mean, I'm saying that, you know, very, but in the concept of it, we all look the same, you know. And I think there's something that it brought all us together in the way we all felt in our special bubble and all felt like together and equal because we just are the same. And we are used to see, you know, we recognize the shows in our scrubs like, you do it.

you cross someone outside set in another day and you're like, oh, I didn't recognize because they're wearing real clothes. But I think it brings a unity that is really nice between all of us. And I don't know if that was the original plan, but that definitely happened. And I like the uniform for that. Now, I mean, everyone still wears jacket around them or their shoes or whatever. So in a way, everyone can personalize it in half the world. But I think the scrubs, really made it even more special for us when we shooting it. And again, in a very comfortable way, look it is. But I really enjoy it and I know most people do.

Yeah, it is funny. Like every time you're on set, you can always tell like who someone is based on, you know, like the DP always seems to have like a scarf and probably like a Gaffer's Glass or like a light meter. It's always a scarf. I want to know what film school told every DP to wear a scarf. I wear a scarf, like, very open on the pit, but it's not for style. It's because the air conditioning is blasting. So I'm trying to not get sick.

That's the only reason why I wear a scarf. It's not for style. And you know, I don't look stylish. You always like wrap. It's up to the air conditioning on sale. It's just like blasting. It's just, you know, that's why I wear a scarf, because it's not more good. Yeah.

For fashion. I am one of those like, of course, we have the Blundstone boots and then the puffer. I do, I do that is, but again, it's for warmth. And also puffer and get too warm, you know. Yeah, that's true. That's true. That's true. Some of you said for that.

And we just discover everything that work, you know? Yeah. Oh, here's a good question. The way the set is built and you're doing all the movement and stuff, is there a point in which you realize. you've like, like that 180 degree line's moving everywhere. Like, do you care about it at that point? Or like, have you ever set something up where you're like, oh, that's actually going to be a confusing cut if we go to,

if we do go to the B cam or whatever, or is it's not really an issue? So it's interesting because, you know, we always thought like don't care too much about the 180 line on the set because everything moves so much. The thing I really track is interactions. So, you know, especially if you, filling the shoulder or someone and with the eye line going left or right or whatever.

If it's two people interacting, I'm tracking that all the time. So the camera moves a lot and then it stops here and see that person. I make sure the reverse is on the correct side so you don't have everyone looking the same way. I think everything else doesn't matter as long as you feel the space, see the space. Actually, the audience doesn't get really confused, honestly. But people interacting is what you need to track. I think. I mean, I think that would be extremely weird to people looking the same way and talking to a

So that's the thing I attract. So anytime there's an interaction, it can be pulling big move, it can be multiple people, right? I track who looks, where, how, when, and I'll make sure I match that on the reverse. Yeah. Yeah. You know, a lot, obviously there's plenty of stories

of production, leaving LA, going other places, tax incentives, whatever it may be. You guys are shooting here in LA. Obviously, for you, that's convenient. You live here. But was there a specific reason to choose? to choose to stay here? Or was it largely convenience for the crew? Was the stage that you guys were able to find? Like, what made you stay here? Hopefully for a happy story. I don't know if I had the,

yeah, I mean, I don't know if I have the answer to that. They kind of told me what I were and I showed up, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sure the fact, you know, it's one of Brover's television and we shooting at one of the stages is probably one of the big reason because, again, our show is 95% of the stages. So that's a reason. I'm sure they were to stay in LA because there's an importance of shoots to still happen in LA. You know, all the main cast, I think, I mean, some of the main cast are in LA. I'm, I'm sure there was so many reasons, but I'm sure being at Warner Bros. Stages for one of a brother's television show is probably one of the reason. I don't really have the answer. I'm sure they have their things and they're higher up thinking, but that's what I think. Yeah. It is, it had been a

long time since I had been on a back lot and then I shot this while I didn't shoot it. I was on various part of the crew for a Amazon commercial and I forgot how nice it is to just park, walk to the thing. There's catering. Like there's always those trucks. You know, you see the same catering people like every third day or whatever. Like that little to your point about everyone wearing the scrubs and feeling like a community, like the support community on the backlots is something that is great. Yeah, I love that too. Yeah, it's and it actually really puts you into a routine and even body is nice, you know, especially on the industry. But we're very lucky on our show because again, we're not shooting like we're shooting 11 hours or less. And so we have the same hours

because we are on stage. So we don't really have time limitations. So we'll start, you know, at 7 a.m. and we'll be home by dinner. And that's amazing. You know, you get to actually have a life for your family and stuff. And that's very. very amazing opportunity and you don't have fraud todays and any of that. It's a nice reverb and people are really happy, truly. Yeah. I wish there's more shows like that in and there. That would be nice.

Well, luckily, you got one. I'm sure, I mean, with how fucking successful it is, I'm sure you'll get a few more seasons before they start having bad conversations. We're hoping so, yeah. Yeah. I don't know if I had anything else. Oh, that was one. Well, we can end with this.

You know, for the flashback scenes, you were talking earlier about diffusion and stuff like that. Why go diffusion and overexposure over Cepia great? You know, like something, what made you think that that was the move to go versus something perhaps more stylized? Yeah, so the flashback ended up was season one. We actually didn't have that on season two. But yeah, season one, we didn't use diffusion filters. and we went pretty heavy on them. I think we used a one and a two stack together.

I think it was really with black magic, if I remember correctly. And the decision for that, so not switching the colors, being perfectly right balanced and just overexposing a little bit, was to make sure we feel it to, you know, the thing with flashback sometimes, you make it almost too obvious it's a flashback. And I think the idea here was like,

we're not trying to confuse them, but we want the audience to feel we are in the same space because we are in the same space. That's what they live in the same space, you know, five years ago. And the idea of making it a little brighter was to make people feel a little more anxious, I think, you know, like if your brain was more aggressive, it was a little more anxious. It felt right, it felt enlightened and it just gave that feeling a little. And then the diffusion frames actually were a lot because everyone was through masks, you know, like, in COVID times and that was to really give that feeling.

You're trying to help see and it's obscure a little bit and that's really how people would see through, you know, all the shield protectors and all that. So that's where the ID came from. Now we did some special like point of view shots where we actually rig a real shield on the camera with a free-de-design as well. I was hooked from the mat box and so we had this shield, you know,

and we just did a little bit of a dropping in the frame so you feel it was Dr. Roby's perspective. So this shot is just for the shield, because the shield is there, diffuse so much already. And then when we're, you know, just regular shot not through the direct perspective, then we use the frames to keep that feeling of like it's overwhelming, it's brighter, and everyone, nothing looks clear, you know, really. And I think that was all that feeling.

But yeah, this was all the thought process for this and in the idea again that it was not, it was a flashback, but it weren't it to be like, it feels somewhere else or different or anything like that. you were the same place, more intense. And yeah. Yeah. Well, it's a phenomenal show, and I know that everyone I know loves it. So like I said, hopefully you get to keep making it as long as at least holds your interest.

Reanswer to here. Frame and Reference is an Albot production, produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so by going to frame and refpod.com and clicking on the Patreon button. It's always appreciated, and as always, thanks for listening.